Barely noticed but lm308 has more compression and that's important if you want crushing tone but I use a rat with mid overdrive so makes no fucks to me
LM308 sounds muddier and more compressed, giving it an unorthodox and gnarly feel to it, whereas the newer opamp is definitely tailored for modern tastes.
The '90s version sound a little less definition, the newer version it's a little more "clear" (and I don't know if it's a good thing for the drone metal sound). Overall, I'd rather prefer using the OP07 in combination with an overdrive, in order to have more control on the mid freq.
Fuzz Face Germanium and knowing how to effectively change loading from the guitar to change voicing. Parallel Humbucker vs Series humbucker and volume changes. Plus oscillation and full square waves possible. I RUIN A RAT WITH A FUZZ FACE. That said.. You can turn the volume on a guitar down with a rat pretty well in the same way
i bet that if we lived in an alternate timeline where the original had the op07 chip and the new version had the lm308 gear snobs would still preach about the superiority of the original on a side note i slightly prefer the op07 but honestly the difference is so small that it doesn't really matter
Honestly every time you switched the pedals my immediate thought was "this is better" and then I realized I was thinking the same thing about both pedals. There is a difference between them but I can't say one is better than the other, and I suspect that an EQ tweak here and there would make a much bigger difference to the tone than the specific op amp ever could.
Op amps make very little difference to tone because they usually aren't being used to create the distortion. They are simply used as clean gain stages in most circuits
@@Patrick-857 i agree , i did an experiment with a few different op amps that had the same pinout , the only difference i could hear was that some were a bit louder than the others but i guess that this is just due to different values needed to achieve the same gain like it is with transistors
In the Reality The difference in Sound in these two pedals is a lot, it is truly remarkable, but in your test you don't understand the minimum difference between one pedal and another !! this test has failed 100%
@@DoesItDoom Don't get me wrong, I love just a balls to the wall fuzz, typically in the fashion of BWAHHHHHHH like what most of Sunn O))) does. But even the Life Pedal has definition to it and that's literally a RAT and an octave fuzz lol.
I have the newer one, and after hearing this I'm not going to shell out $70 to get it modded with the lm308. Any differences is slight enough that it won't matter. Just because the guys from Sunn0))) use the old one doesn't mean I have to. The new one can drone and doom just fine on its own.
@@DoesItDoom I find the differences have more to do when using the lower levels of distortion (knob around 9/10 o'clock). Where the old ones I can use as a boost, the newer ones just don't do that side of the distortion knob very well, for me. In saying that though, I don't think the differences in higher distortion settings matter between old and new rats, demonstrated in the video. I think in this test they sound very similar to one another to even worry about the minutiae. Good videos, man!
You can always do what I did, I have the newer circuit in the older housing. I got it off reverb that way for like 50 bucks. Its always funny when people come up and ask about that rat or give it props. ;p
LM308 sounds thicker with a little more low end making it more drone like OP07 sounds tighter and has more sustain Both sound fantastic but I think I prefer the update
I managed to pick up a used 90s rat with the lm308 for $70 CAD recently, and I'm so happy with it, I love the fuzzy hairy character it gets when the gain is maxed out
The small difference between the two sounds more like tolerance variations than an op amp switch. I’m sure ProCo knew what they were doing when they switched op amps bc they sound basically identical.
I agree with you, opamps sonic variations are in general very subtle and you have to go back and forth switching between opamps in the same pedal to hear a difference. Sound difference is more likely to be due to capacitor drift in value within their tolerance.
I have the current version of the Rat and love it. Currently I play in Drop C, but what this video shows me, I need to be in Drop A. Damn that sounded killer! Great work as always Steve!
Huh. I think my preference honestly varies with which filter you were using. When the filters was set high, I preferred the OP07, but with it low to medium the LM308. I guess I'd have to sort out what filter setting I like best to really hone in on my favourite. Like others have said, I find the LM308 darker and dronier, while the OP07 is clearer with more sustain. The difference is subtle, though. Great vid!
The op-7 sounds a bit tighter and brighter to me. I'd have to go with the newer version...save a couple bucks. And get another pedal with the money ;) As always....great demo!
Thanks for this. Allegedly the 308 is better for bass because of the way it clips. That said I'm not sure I want the darker tone anyway. I put lights on my Charvel for a reason. The last used pedal I bought has a wicked hiss, it's useless and I'm stuck with it. Maybe I can get it fixed but it was freakin' expensive to begin with. I won't resell it because I'm not a douchebag. I say this to remind us, used gear is just that used and maybe used hard. This is my roundabout thought process leading to the conclusion that when I pull the trigger on a RAT, it will be a new one. Thanks to the previous commenters who heard what I heard, a negligible difference and that difference ain't worth 3 times the price of a new RAT. Also, thanks for calling me out, however indirectly. I was starting to think in snobbish terms about the LM308.
I’ve used a blackface “the rat” with an lm308, a rat 2 with a 308 and a rat 2 with the later chip. The difference between the -‘87 rat and the early rat 2 is bigger than the early rat 2 and the later rat 2. The early one sounds fuller, and reacts better at low gain, and becomes more saturated in high gain.
I really think the filter " knob" on the Rat pedals are the key feature. I love this demo man. To me the older one had the balls and mojo here. New model sounded a little cleaner sounding. I still think Rat is one of the best bass pedals as well. Great video man!
Thanks, Josh! The reverse tone control / low pass filter is definitely key. They are very close, but I think I prefer the darker / open character of the LM308 version as well.
Missed the notification : (. Great video as always Steve! They both sound pretty great, I think the biggest difference are the tapers of the pots, and small component inconsistencies.
Man great video. I can hear a little more mids in the OP07 where the LM308 sounds a little more low end. The OP07 also sounded like it a had a little better sustain to it which made it a little more rich sounding where the LM308 had a touch more dirt. Both awsome pedals either one is a fanatic choice really. I personally am going to go with the OP07, i like the mids in it that I seem to hear.
Great video, thanks! The two are very close, I would say the differences are only due to the differences in the pot values. Remember: pots are the least accurate parts in any pedal, they can have up to 20% tolerance (but I have seen pots that measured even worse than that). This can very well be the reason for the slightly different behaviour of the two pedals. Having said that I like the newer version more, but again, I'm pretty sure the differences are only due to the very wide tolerance ranges of the pots. Anyhow, my Rat clone will definitely find its way back to my board (I used a Pharaoh clone lately)
I would imagine component tolerance does play a role for sure. Can't really say how much is coming from the chip vs other components. Thanks for the details on tolerance!
Finally someone that uses a looper in order to make a proper comparisson, taking out the human factor and the change of dynamics while playing even the same progression. Great comparisson video. The circuits are basically the same, with a couple of capacitors being different due to the use of the different op-amp. Either will sound great in the hands of a good player. Tone is in the fingers imho. Bonamassa uses a couple of pedals.
The main thing I'm noticing (probably because I'm a bassist) is that the LM308 seems to have more and cleaner low end. I mean the stuff at the very bottom of the guitar frequency range - maybe the first overtones or even the fundamentals? Not worth paying more for in and of itself, but I do respect pedal collectors wanting such a pedal for historical reasons. I'm a pretty big believer that op-amps are not what makes or breaks the done of any dirt circuit. There are videos from the good folks at Visual sound and Wampler where they A/B loads of different op-amps with minimal effects on the overall sound. It's almost to the point of being inaudible with a solo guitar, let alone in a full band mix. Josh from JHS also points out that the stated tolerances on simpler parts like potentiometers and capacitors mean that, even with identical settings, pedals with the same components from the same production runs can sound different to each other. I think that's moreso where any "mojo" that old pedals have comes from (and may also be part of why the new rat is louder)
There’s a slight difference but personally I have the newer version and it dooms more than all the other ‘boutique’ fuzzes I have. But depends on amp/speakers/guitar etc
I soldered and ic socket in my newer rat 2, and I dropped a lm308 in it. There’s a tiny noticeable difference. Just a tad bit warmer and the low end really comes through when the lpf is even at 3 o’clock.
Very cool that you've done a direct comparison on the same pedal! From this demo, to me the LM308 does indeed sound a bit darker and more open. Both sound great though.
There's an important middle step as well, where the rat was still made in USA and in a flat box but had the OP07 chip. I've played one a few times and that sounds exactly like the LM308 rats, much closer than the newer sloped enclosure ones.
I don’t care either way. There’s no “mojo” in certain parts. It’s a secondhand dealer con (and too an Oldman guitar player midlife crisis con) which turns into a psychological con as one must justify the money paid. Edited to add a rant: The reason people started buying secondhand gear in the 70s, 80s and to a lesser extent the 90’s is because it was cheap, unwanted and a lot of it...not because it was perceived as better. Today, old secondhand guitars and amps demand absurd amounts of money for perceived superiority. It wasn’t always viewed like this. Gear from the 90’s isn’t vintage, folks. Haha “Look at that kid, he can’t even afford a new guitar so he has to use a guitar from the 50’s, what a looser” that kid is now a man and his cheap guitars are collectively worth around a million dollars. The kid who could only afford a “piece of shit jazzmaster” that sold for $250 in the 80’s now owns the epitome of jazzmasters worth many thousands of dollars as far as are concerned the hipsters and collectors. Mark my words, in ten-twenty years there’ll be new mojo in an old device that today with think is mediocre. It’s the only way dealers make big money.
IMO, thats what is happening with the boss fz 2. Got one for 40 bucks, years ago. That thing only works well on downtuned guitars, and to nail the "dopethrone sound". Overrated one trick pony.
After building a couple pedals I think there is mojo in certain parts, but op amps really aren't one of them, they're really similar from chip to chip when it comes to audio applications. Brian Wampler has a great video on it. Now NOS capacitors, transistors and different diodes? Those make a much more meaningful impact on tonal qualities. But again, it's really only something a snob would hear in a super isolated recording. Live or on a record the audience won't know the difference, especially if you suck at playing hahah.
Nicely done video with excellent sound quality as always! Although I believe to hear certain difference with the older one being slightly fatter I'm not really convinced it's all down to the chip for two reasons. The low slew rate is commonly accepted to be the gratest contributor to the LM308 sound and the OP07 has the same slew rate. All components have, unfortunately, certain variances in the percentage range with potentiometers usually being the worst with up to +- 20%. So maybe What we are hearing is more just the varyiing components in the feedback network or the tone circuit. The fact that the vokume on both units isn't the same is also a hint that the circuits aren't perfectly identical because if they would they should be equally loud since the volume at max gain is mainly determined by the clipping diodes and the following rest of the circuit. I'd love to make a shootout of multiple of the exact same pedal to see how far those varyiances can change the sound. Maybe with 3 of the very cheap mosky rats?
I noticed on certain settings - ONLY CERTAIN SETTINGS - the NEW OP07 sounded a tad fizzier (aka Fuzz-like) than the LM308 which sounded smoother in comparison. But this is incredibly discrete and I run a recording studio and mix for a living. I will say one thing, in context NO WAY would you be able to differentiate.
Great video! They are very, very close. I hear a more pronounced mid frequency in the newer that I don’t like as much, but it’s so close that it’s negligible.
The difference is so slight that you probably get just as much tone variance between different LM308 (and OP07) units just from pot, cap etc. tolerance. And the newer ones have a more standard power supply in, making them far easier to integrate in a board.
I recently built a RAT clone of my own (with a nice switch to choose between germanium diodes, silicon diodes and LEDs for the clipping stage, essentially making it a Rat 2, You Dirty Rat and Turbo Rat in one) and I socketed the op amp. Tried a whole bunch of different op amps and I found they definitely have a significant impact on the character of the distortion. Didn't have an LM308 though, and eventually I stuck with the OP07 cause it does sound great with that one, in my opinion. Or I should rather say, I don't think the LM308 is worth the extra premium. It's just a bog standard chip they happened to use when they were cheaply available at the time. Since they long stopped making them those getting real expensive nowadays. The OP07 is a good more modern replacement that sounds very similar. Was my first DIY pedal too. Pretty cool to build my own and learn exactly how it works. Would recommend.
I've actually built a RAT clone and done this comparison myself, along with a few other opamps, and come to the conclusion that no matter what chip you put in it, a RAT is still a RAT. The differences are there, but they're slight, and I can guarantee that no one is going to be able to tell the difference onstage with a band. The OP07 is a bit brighter and tighter than the LM308, which is a bit "woolier"and also tends to fall on it's face with faster playing- it doesn't handle transients very well. However, I thought it sounded a bit "congested" compared to my favorite opamps, the CA3130EZ and the LM301. The 3130EZ was the most aggressive of the bunch, but it tended to cut out on long sustained notes when the output fell below a certain threshold, so I ended up going with the LM301 which seemed to my ears to be the most balanced of the bunch.
I've had both and never keep them. I find myself liking the new enhanced versions of this circuit. Whether you're #KVLT or not about the pedal it's still a great pedal to put with other tone generators. Thanks Steve.
Thank you for this great comparrison! I like the OP07 more, sounds meaner. Can't understand why the LM308 are sold for over 100 bucks used, when this awesome reissue is about 70 bucks brand new. When I look up the used market there're also way more LM 308 versions for sale than the reissue...seems odd, hm?! Cheers from Germany, keep it up!
I have a 1988 ProCo Rat 2 (w/ LM308 chip) and also had a newer Rat 2 (w/ the OP07 chip). IMO these two versions of the pedal are going to sound very similar to each other when played thru an Orange Crush 20 (Solid State) and for me I noticed a world of difference when played thru a tube amp. When I played both versions of these Rats thru a vintage Fender, Traynor or Music Man amp the difference was night and day, the newer RAT sound thin and harsh and my vintage '88 was warmer abit more smooth and with more low-end.
You should try finding a Proco roadkill and compare it to either. I picked up one for 30 bucks and it’s my only Rat style pedal so I’ve never compared it with another. Great video, just proves you can’t always believe what you hear.
I prefer the LM308 version but the difference is slight enough that I'd be happy with either one. I have a feeling just changing the amp settings a bit would be enough to negate most of the difference.
The difference i hear is much more on low settings for distortion and filter knob, there the old version cleans up more than the new one but who wants to play more clear with a RAT?! On the higher settings of the knobs overall i would say the new OP sounds better, more crispy and less muddy.
I don't think the difference between the 2 is enough to warrant the cost of an LM308 rat. Especially in a band situation/bar show.feels like a case of "vintage" hype verses reality. Great demo as always man, keep doing the Lord(iommi's) work. 🤘🙌👍
@@DoesItDoom I feel like both of them have situations where they'd outshine the other. Either way it's a win/win if you're after the rat sound, just get a rat 🐭
Thanks for the comparison. Both doom very well and honestly they both sound great. Very hard to hear a difference between the two. Basically it comes down to grab either version and you’ll be happy.
The OP7 sounds pokey, tighter and brighter than the LM308, warmer and cleaner, which is not necessary a minus in downtuning, the newer Rat adds tightness and punch to lower strings!
back in the 80's & 90's I played mostly with an old 87-ish Rat pedal, the one without the LED light. You didn't need a light to know when it was on! ;-) It sounded amazing thru a GK ML E 120w stereo head pumped into a Marshall 4x12. Sold that Rat when I stopped playing full time. I been playing a little more lately so I bought a Rat2 OP07. When I first plugged it in, I thought yeah- it sounds good but it doesn't have the same ballz as the old Rat. I use the Rat2 as a boost for a PRS MT-15 amp which is amazing all on its own. I also use the Rat2 when I need to tame down the shred for a song or two. So this week I was going to take that Rat 2 down to the music store and trade it for something different to see what I could find, maybe a PG-14 by JHS or something... but the night before I plugged that Rat2 in one more time to see if I want to part with it and I was like.. Oh man this thing sounds so awesome.... why would I ever trade it?? so i kept it. :D In this review, I probably prefer the 308 just because its a little tighter in the low-mid end when setting the knobs identical, but the 07 can probably be tweaked to match the 308 close enough for my taste.
The OP07 sustains for much longer and is just generally much louder... I feel thats an amazing upgrade, even if its so subtle and miniature that most can barely notice, but that's what I was hearing! Maybe Gear Snobs will finally shut up for once with some good drone quality at a cheap price..
LM has lightly less high mids BUT that can almost 100% be down to electronics having a slight variance in rating, especially with older ones having a larger variance
Both pedals sound great. It's very subtle but I think the new pedal is more excited and maybe a little squashed. The older pedal sounds like it has more dynamic nuance, natural breathing. When I do blind test I can barely hear the difference. The distortion profile sounds pretty much the same
i got one i was placeboed into thinking it was the original for the longest time. been first on my board for 20 years now. it was late 90s but had the old knobs and old enclosure and feet. whats not apparent from above is how the ProCo label on the bottom front is sized different. i swore i had the old one for the longest. i could pick out how it was better than the new one i believed. other guitarists with the new one said it was better too. we were all fools. it was the OP amp the whole time. now i cant pick out a significant difference. even with the big box models. i think some amps can do a better job highlighting the very tiny difference in the chip but ultimately, you can get the same sounds from both. you just gotta set the knobs the littlest bit different. if you want a more significant diffetence, JHS makes a mod that has a different character about it. alot more headroom and alot more bass. possibly alot more doom. theres also pedals that put their own little spin on the base rat like the 1981. ive seen a Catlinbread one that looked interesting too, which use tone bender circuits with the rats. its called a Katzenkonig. theres also the other rats to try. theres the turbo rat, the fat rat, the Dirty Rat (mix of old timey germanium with normal rat stuff) and theres something called the Brat from Proco that i cant at this moment recall what it was that made it different. so yea, you can definetly get your own flavor of Rat, but the Rat 2 is for the most part so much the same youd be hard pressed to really make it matter if you got the old chip or not
A month ago, with my friend we made similar test. New rat2 with op7 vs. new rat2 with lm308. The most noticable thing is slightly different clipping. I left op7 in my rat2, but if someone want to change the chip, cost of lm308 is like 2-3$.
Utterly identical. For DIYers, go OP-07. I’ve bought so many LM308s, and I have never gotten an authentic one. The market is riddled with counterfeits, go with OP-07 that has no counterfeits.
Do I prefer the LM308? Yes. Am I gonna spend extra money for it? Probably not. Messing with my guitars tone know and amps controls will make the new one sound good. Also for the price I've seen some old ones go for I'd rather support a smaller brand! Nice comparison.
I'd go with the OP07. Just because of the slightly lower output. Knowing that the LM306 had a slightly lower output would set off my ocd. Though the true test for any pedal is to run it into a pedal chain with every distortion and fuzz pedal you have. Then run every pedal on max. Though I can't guarantee that your amp will not blow up and the windows of your place will not pop.
There was something to the midrange in the LM308 version that I preferred, but it was pretty minuscule. It took me a couple tries to hear the difference. For the big range in price, I would be hard pressed to get the olde me pedal. I just bought the stuff to make a clone of a Rat and start modding the circuit and I bought a OP07 opamp. Not unhappy with my decision.
I'm a self professed RAT addict, I run a few actual rats and a few "clones" on my board for most of my drive needs, never less than 3 often times 2 lm308 flat tops, one set up to drive my amp a little harder (think tube screamer with the gain down volume up [but hard clipped] and one with all knobs dimed for droning sound we all love, and the jhs packrat (check it out) set up to be a mediumish high distortion I use for heavy rythem and lately for vintage style driven solo sounds (think maggot brains when the trip really hits). The lm308 to my ears (in comparison to op07 and whatever opamp jhs selected) has a more raw and compressed sound, and will push my tube amps into that dying crackle much earlier. The jhs has an enormous amount of headroom, even in the classic mode, but it retains all the rat goodness but seems more high mid focused and more aggressive. For serious rat lovers check out gremlin noise machines raiden, I recently got one with the lm108 tin can op amp and its changed my world.
JHS did a break down of this recently finding the chips are essentially identical! so any differences might be due to more aged components or the like. if the output of one is lower it could mean one of the components was faulty too.
I don't think there is less low bass end on the newer one, just less low mids. To my ears anyway. I think there is more clarity in the newer one. BTW, the Rat was my first pedal ever. In '83. Damn, I wish I still had that!!!
You know, the biggest difference between these pedals is the filter sweep and overall total volume, which to me is more of a sign of differences in pots than anything to do with the Op-Amp being used in either unit. Sure, there is some difference in the Op-Amps, but it's not affecting the sound we hear as much as the +/-20% of the pots at certain values. That extra brightness on the new one I would bet comes down to the pot value on the filter. Frankly, changing the Op-Amp is negligible compared to the other changes ProCo has made to the Rat. For example, V1 RATs from 79-81 had a Tone Control instead of the Filter Control most of us are familiar with. Those earlier Rats also had different clipping diodes, too. In fact, I think Pro Co figured this out too, which is why the only difference between the modern production rats (Like the RAT2, Turbo Rat, Dirty Rat, etc) is how they modify the clipping stage with different diodes. The only other feature I see in any of the RAT pedals is the SOLO pedal that adds a midrange scoop along with the 3 way Diode toggle. That to me makes more of a pronounced difference than swapping OP07s for LM308s, hence I think it's just not worth the time to swap the Op-Amp. What does this mean? Simple. The magic of the RAT is the circuit, and ProCo really got it right. I don't think there's a magic Op-Amp for RATs, much like there isn't a magic Op-Amp for Tubescreamers. It's the circuit that we love. Let's save the component chasing for Transistors in old Fuzz Pedal designs, and let's just enjoy the RAT for what it is, a really good distortion pedal and one of the best value propositions on the pedal market.
Op08 sounds clearer! With filter a bit more closed compared to LM308, they must sound almost the same! I think I prefer OP08. Thank you for the video! This is so good
they're both good. the newer one may be a small bit brighter, all things being equal. my opinion - people get far too hung up on "magic" components. it has more to do with the circuit as a whole.
I think OP07 sounds better. Richer in harmonics and maybe a little longer sustain. But it's hard to judge. I've got Turbo Rat with op07 and don't use it. Maybe i should start to.
I did a blind test between the black secret and an 80s big box rat. they were identical. the rat was $120, the black secret was $40 and 1/4 of the size.
My whole thing is, if anything has to be debated to such an extent theres probably not much there. When you listen to different muffs it's easy to hear a difference. These rats, not so much
Wide open or higher gain settings i think it’s hard to justify spending more but I wonder if the differences (whatever they are) would be more pronounced at lower overdrive territory gain settings , for blues type stuff, just a thought
Honestly, I really couldn't tell that much of a difference. Perhaps the older version had a bit more fuzz to it and the newer version was a touch less fuzzy, but considering that the pots in each one vary greatly (taking two pots at random from a bag, they'll all be fairly different) and sometimes caps and resistors can have variance in them, I really would like to see a faceoff between an earlier Rat circuit and a newer one à la breadboard, so they're still using the same pots and most of the same resistors. That way, it is really only the op amps that change.
Could you hear a difference? Which version of the pedal sounded best to you and why?
Witchcraft Destroys Minds & Reaps Souls seems to be the case!
Barely noticed but lm308 has more compression and that's important if you want crushing tone but I use a rat with mid overdrive so makes no fucks to me
LM308 sounds muddier and more compressed, giving it an unorthodox and gnarly feel to it, whereas the newer opamp is definitely tailored for modern tastes.
The '90s version sound a little less definition, the newer version it's a little more "clear" (and I don't know if it's a good thing for the drone metal sound).
Overall, I'd rather prefer using the OP07 in combination with an overdrive, in order to have more control on the mid freq.
Both sound good. Splitting hairs
Rat: only pedal which can be featured in distortion, fuzz and overdrive videos and still hold its own.
thom dushane one of the very best. 🐀🐀🐀
I put one on my board in 1990 and never looked back! Pair it with a tube screamer and you have everything you will ever need.
Boss hm2 wym
Fuzz Face Germanium and knowing how to effectively change loading from the guitar to change voicing.
Parallel Humbucker vs Series humbucker and volume changes. Plus oscillation and full square waves possible. I RUIN A RAT WITH A FUZZ FACE.
That said.. You can turn the volume on a guitar down with a rat pretty well in the same way
Big muff
i bet that if we lived in an alternate timeline where the original had the op07 chip and the new version had the lm308 gear snobs would still preach about the superiority of the original
on a side note i slightly prefer the op07 but honestly the difference is so small that it doesn't really matter
you will never hear the difference outside a straight direct clean uninterrupted comparison like here
Yeah videos like these negate so many things I’ve heard about the 0P07, and really just make a fool out of pedal snobs in general
Yeah, depends also on the guitar and amp you're using. One might work better for one rig and less well for another.
The differences are the knob settings/pot tolerances… compare two 308s and discover one is more magic than the other.
Honestly every time you switched the pedals my immediate thought was "this is better" and then I realized I was thinking the same thing about both pedals. There is a difference between them but I can't say one is better than the other, and I suspect that an EQ tweak here and there would make a much bigger difference to the tone than the specific op amp ever could.
That’s awesome! The difference is pretty subtle for sure, and I think it would be easy to EQ one to sound like the other.
Op amps make very little difference to tone because they usually aren't being used to create the distortion. They are simply used as clean gain stages in most circuits
@@Patrick-857 i agree , i did an experiment with a few different op amps that had the same pinout , the only difference i could hear was that some were a bit louder than the others but i guess that this is just due to different values needed to achieve the same gain like it is with transistors
In the Reality The difference in Sound in these two pedals is a lot, it is truly remarkable, but in your test you don't understand the minimum difference between one pedal and another !! this test has failed 100%
@@key_session ...is this sarcasm or?
The newer one seems to have a lot more note articulation to it. I personally prefer that. I like being able to hear my notes ringing out.
I can hear what you’re saying for sure.
@@DoesItDoom Don't get me wrong, I love just a balls to the wall fuzz, typically in the fashion of BWAHHHHHHH like what most of Sunn O))) does. But even the Life Pedal has definition to it and that's literally a RAT and an octave fuzz lol.
I was thinking the same. The difference is very slight, but definitely noticeable. I actually preferred it
I have the newer one, and after hearing this I'm not going to shell out $70 to get it modded with the lm308. Any differences is slight enough that it won't matter. Just because the guys from Sunn0))) use the old one doesn't mean I have to. The new one can drone and doom just fine on its own.
Audible but very slight indeed. Glad the video helped you decide!
@@DoesItDoom I find the differences have more to do when using the lower levels of distortion (knob around 9/10 o'clock). Where the old ones I can use as a boost, the newer ones just don't do that side of the distortion knob very well, for me.
In saying that though, I don't think the differences in higher distortion settings matter between old and new rats, demonstrated in the video. I think in this test they sound very similar to one another to even worry about the minutiae. Good videos, man!
billy clinton interesting. Will have to compare them that way!
You can always do what I did, I have the newer circuit in the older housing. I got it off reverb that way for like 50 bucks. Its always funny when people come up and ask about that rat or give it props. ;p
Wayne Alderman haha!! That’s awesome man. As we can all hear, not as much difference as many would suggest.
LM308 sounds thicker with a little more low end making it more drone like
OP07 sounds tighter and has more sustain
Both sound fantastic but I think I prefer the update
That summarizes things well I think.
Yes, the update is a little bit better
I got a new Rat and its bad ass. cant complain. lol. great demo
I managed to pick up a used 90s rat with the lm308 for $70 CAD recently, and I'm so happy with it, I love the fuzzy hairy character it gets when the gain is maxed out
Great deal!!
The small difference between the two sounds more like tolerance variations than an op amp switch. I’m sure ProCo knew what they were doing when they switched op amps bc they sound basically identical.
Sound close for sure. And certainly likely to be some tolerance variation going on as well.
I agree with you, opamps sonic variations are in general very subtle and you have to go back and forth switching between opamps in the same pedal to hear a difference. Sound difference is more likely to be due to capacitor drift in value within their tolerance.
I have the current version of the Rat and love it. Currently I play in Drop C, but what this video shows me, I need to be in Drop A. Damn that sounded killer! Great work as always Steve!
Clearly it’s a great sounding pedal! Drop A definitely does the O))) thing. Thanks for watching buddy!
Huh. I think my preference honestly varies with which filter you were using. When the filters was set high, I preferred the OP07, but with it low to medium the LM308. I guess I'd have to sort out what filter setting I like best to really hone in on my favourite.
Like others have said, I find the LM308 darker and dronier, while the OP07 is clearer with more sustain. The difference is subtle, though. Great vid!
Interesting! Thanks for watching. Glad you liked the comparison.
They were more alike than I would have thought. Both sound pretty rad. Thanks for the vid! 🤘🐀
Closer than I expected as well. Thanks for watching!
The op-7 sounds a bit tighter and brighter to me. I'd have to go with the newer version...save a couple bucks. And get another pedal with the money ;)
As always....great demo!
Thanks for watching, Peter! I think that's pretty accurate on the OP07 sounding brighter and tighter. At $50 used it's a great buy for sure.
Get a second RAT! Graham Coxon approves of this idea.
I love vintage gear. But, ihave too go w/ the OPo7. The difference is subtle but, clear. Glad I already own one💪🐁
Subtle but clear for sure. Thanks for watching!
I don't particularly buy into "mojo" and definitely not for 3x the price. For me the newer version would be the ticket.
Both versions sound great to me, and I would be hard pressed to consider one "better". Thanks for watching buddy!
Thanks for this. Allegedly the 308 is better for bass because of the way it clips. That said I'm not sure I want the darker tone anyway. I put lights on my Charvel for a reason.
The last used pedal I bought has a wicked hiss, it's useless and I'm stuck with it. Maybe I can get it fixed but it was freakin' expensive to begin with. I won't resell it because I'm not a douchebag. I say this to remind us, used gear is just that used and maybe used hard.
This is my roundabout thought process leading to the conclusion that when I pull the trigger on a RAT, it will be a new one. Thanks to the previous commenters who heard what I heard, a negligible difference and that difference ain't worth 3 times the price of a new RAT. Also, thanks for calling me out, however indirectly. I was starting to think in snobbish terms about the LM308.
I’ve used a blackface “the rat” with an lm308, a rat 2 with a 308 and a rat 2 with the later chip. The difference between the -‘87 rat and the early rat 2 is bigger than the early rat 2 and the later rat 2. The early one sounds fuller, and reacts better at low gain, and becomes more saturated in high gain.
They have a different part and resistor layout. The non led Black/White face have a more fuller tone and the 90’s Rat2 have more aggression
I really think the filter " knob" on the Rat pedals are the key feature. I love this demo man. To me the older one had the balls and mojo here. New model sounded a little cleaner sounding. I still think Rat is one of the best bass pedals as well. Great video man!
Thanks, Josh! The reverse tone control / low pass filter is definitely key. They are very close, but I think I prefer the darker / open character of the LM308 version as well.
I have an ‘87 Rat, sounds great, but I’m liking the newer one here also!
I think the differences are subtle but definitely audible. Both sound great imo.
both sound awesome. its one of those legendary pedals. i like the LM308 one, in this demo it sounds fuller on my headphones
A fair assessment. I agree that there are some differences, but both sound awesome.
Missed the notification : (. Great video as always Steve! They both sound pretty great, I think the biggest difference are the tapers of the pots, and small component inconsistencies.
Casey King thanks! Yeah, not all that different for sure.
I just got a Rat 2 and it's a great pedal. I'm currently layering it with a TC Electronic Cinders OD and the sound is devastating. Love it.
Awesome!
Very similar sound, i did notice a little more high end sizzle with the newer model. Love them both tho, HEAVY!! Love the channel , keep it up.
Definitely a bit more high end in the newer model. Thanks for watching, brother!
Man great video. I can hear a little more mids in the OP07 where the LM308 sounds a little more low end. The OP07 also sounded like it a had a little better sustain to it which made it a little more rich sounding where the LM308 had a touch more dirt. Both awsome pedals either one is a fanatic choice really. I personally am going to go with the OP07, i like the mids in it that I seem to hear.
Thanks so much--I'm glad you liked it. To me the OP07 sounds a little brighter and is a bit tighter. Both are great for sure.
You just blew apart the hype! They both doom! Awesome! Thanks, Steve. Always appreciate your work, man. 🤘🏻
Thanks for the inspiration to do this video man! I hope it clears up the difference for everyone.
Great video, thanks! The two are very close, I would say the differences are only due to the differences in the pot values. Remember: pots are the least accurate parts in any pedal, they can have up to 20% tolerance (but I have seen pots that measured even worse than that). This can very well be the reason for the slightly different behaviour of the two pedals. Having said that I like the newer version more, but again, I'm pretty sure the differences are only due to the very wide tolerance ranges of the pots. Anyhow, my Rat clone will definitely find its way back to my board (I used a Pharaoh clone lately)
I would imagine component tolerance does play a role for sure. Can't really say how much is coming from the chip vs other components. Thanks for the details on tolerance!
Finally someone that uses a looper in order to make a proper comparisson, taking out the human factor and the change of dynamics while playing even the same progression. Great comparisson video. The circuits are basically the same, with a couple of capacitors being different due to the use of the different op-amp. Either will sound great in the hands of a good player. Tone is in the fingers imho. Bonamassa uses a couple of pedals.
Thanks man. I like the idea of keeping the input signal fixed / repeatable.
The main thing I'm noticing (probably because I'm a bassist) is that the LM308 seems to have more and cleaner low end. I mean the stuff at the very bottom of the guitar frequency range - maybe the first overtones or even the fundamentals? Not worth paying more for in and of itself, but I do respect pedal collectors wanting such a pedal for historical reasons.
I'm a pretty big believer that op-amps are not what makes or breaks the done of any dirt circuit. There are videos from the good folks at Visual sound and Wampler where they A/B loads of different op-amps with minimal effects on the overall sound. It's almost to the point of being inaudible with a solo guitar, let alone in a full band mix. Josh from JHS also points out that the stated tolerances on simpler parts like potentiometers and capacitors mean that, even with identical settings, pedals with the same components from the same production runs can sound different to each other. I think that's moreso where any "mojo" that old pedals have comes from (and may also be part of why the new rat is louder)
The difference between the two is audible for sure, but certainly not night and day. Thanks for watching!
This video made me realize I had not yet subscribed to your awesome channel. Whooops....
Thanks for the sub! 🙏🏻🐐🔮
Best side-by-side comparison, as it takes the player out of the equation.
Both sound very nice, but I find myself leaning towards the LM308 opamp loaded Rat...seems darker and thicker to my ear
They both sound great. I've got a new Rat and it's awesome.
There’s a slight difference but personally I have the newer version and it dooms more than all the other ‘boutique’ fuzzes I have. But depends on amp/speakers/guitar etc
Hard to be a Rat!
I soldered and ic socket in my newer rat 2, and I dropped a lm308 in it. There’s a tiny noticeable difference. Just a tad bit warmer and the low end really comes through when the lpf is even at 3 o’clock.
Very cool that you've done a direct comparison on the same pedal! From this demo, to me the LM308 does indeed sound a bit darker and more open. Both sound great though.
I like the older Lm308, in my opinion it had more of a powerful bass heavy tone
I'd say slightly darker for sure. Thanks for watching!
There's an important middle step as well, where the rat was still made in USA and in a flat box but had the OP07 chip.
I've played one a few times and that sounds exactly like the LM308 rats, much closer than the newer sloped enclosure ones.
Interesting!
Maybe the OP07 has higher Mid in the EQ and that's what is delivering higher volume as well
I don’t care either way.
There’s no “mojo” in certain parts. It’s a secondhand dealer con (and too an Oldman guitar player midlife crisis con) which turns into a psychological con as one must justify the money paid.
Edited to add a rant:
The reason people started buying secondhand gear in the 70s, 80s and to a lesser extent the 90’s is because it was cheap, unwanted and a lot of it...not because it was perceived as better.
Today, old secondhand guitars and amps demand absurd amounts of money for perceived superiority. It wasn’t always viewed like this.
Gear from the 90’s isn’t vintage, folks. Haha
“Look at that kid, he can’t even afford a new guitar so he has to use a guitar from the 50’s, what a looser” that kid is now a man and his cheap guitars are collectively worth around a million dollars.
The kid who could only afford a “piece of shit jazzmaster” that sold for $250 in the 80’s now owns the epitome of jazzmasters worth many thousands of dollars as far as are concerned the hipsters and collectors.
Mark my words, in ten-twenty years there’ll be new mojo in an old device that today with think is mediocre. It’s the only way dealers make big money.
You make a lot of great points. 🧙🏻♂️👍🏻🐐
Hahahah imagine people in the 2040s talking about how "They don't make Kempers like they used to"
IMO, thats what is happening with the boss fz 2. Got one for 40 bucks, years ago. That thing only works well on downtuned guitars, and to nail the "dopethrone sound". Overrated one trick pony.
Thiago Chaia where did you get a boss Fz 2 for so cheap
After building a couple pedals I think there is mojo in certain parts, but op amps really aren't one of them, they're really similar from chip to chip when it comes to audio applications. Brian Wampler has a great video on it. Now NOS capacitors, transistors and different diodes? Those make a much more meaningful impact on tonal qualities. But again, it's really only something a snob would hear in a super isolated recording. Live or on a record the audience won't know the difference, especially if you suck at playing hahah.
Nicely done video with excellent sound quality as always!
Although I believe to hear certain difference with the older one being slightly fatter I'm not really convinced it's all down to the chip for two reasons.
The low slew rate is commonly accepted to be the gratest contributor to the LM308 sound and the OP07 has the same slew rate.
All components have, unfortunately, certain variances in the percentage range with potentiometers usually being the worst with up to +- 20%. So maybe What we are hearing is more just the varyiing components in the feedback network or the tone circuit.
The fact that the vokume on both units isn't the same is also a hint that the circuits aren't perfectly identical because if they would they should be equally loud since the volume at max gain is mainly determined by the clipping diodes and the following rest of the circuit.
I'd love to make a shootout of multiple of the exact same pedal to see how far those varyiances can change the sound. Maybe with 3 of the very cheap mosky rats?
A lot of great points and cool idea! Thanks for watching.
The 90's version has more low-end, it sounds slightly darker then the newer to me.
Just put my rat back on my board. It was a mistake taking it off I soon realized!
I noticed on certain settings - ONLY CERTAIN SETTINGS - the NEW OP07 sounded a tad fizzier (aka Fuzz-like) than the LM308 which sounded smoother in comparison. But this is incredibly discrete and I run a recording studio and mix for a living. I will say one thing, in context NO WAY would you be able to differentiate.
Great video! They are very, very close. I hear a more pronounced mid frequency in the newer that I don’t like as much, but it’s so close that it’s negligible.
Thanks, Matt! Very close indeed.
The difference is so slight that you probably get just as much tone variance between different LM308 (and OP07) units just from pot, cap etc. tolerance. And the newer ones have a more standard power supply in, making them far easier to integrate in a board.
I recently built a RAT clone of my own (with a nice switch to choose between germanium diodes, silicon diodes and LEDs for the clipping stage, essentially making it a Rat 2, You Dirty Rat and Turbo Rat in one) and I socketed the op amp. Tried a whole bunch of different op amps and I found they definitely have a significant impact on the character of the distortion. Didn't have an LM308 though, and eventually I stuck with the OP07 cause it does sound great with that one, in my opinion. Or I should rather say, I don't think the LM308 is worth the extra premium. It's just a bog standard chip they happened to use when they were cheaply available at the time. Since they long stopped making them those getting real expensive nowadays. The OP07 is a good more modern replacement that sounds very similar.
Was my first DIY pedal too. Pretty cool to build my own and learn exactly how it works. Would recommend.
Volv would love to try that! Very cool.
I have a '95Rat is very similar to your '90Rat and I use it on bass with the tuning of B Standard... Love these Pedals 🖤 & thanks for this demo 🤘
Sure thing! Gotta love a 🐀🐀🐀
I've actually built a RAT clone and done this comparison myself, along with a few other opamps, and come to the conclusion that no matter what chip you put in it, a RAT is still a RAT. The differences are there, but they're slight, and I can guarantee that no one is going to be able to tell the difference onstage with a band. The OP07 is a bit brighter and tighter than the LM308, which is a bit "woolier"and also tends to fall on it's face with faster playing- it doesn't handle transients very well. However, I thought it sounded a bit "congested" compared to my favorite opamps, the CA3130EZ and the LM301. The 3130EZ was the most aggressive of the bunch, but it tended to cut out on long sustained notes when the output fell below a certain threshold, so I ended up going with the LM301 which seemed to my ears to be the most balanced of the bunch.
Thanks for the insight Matthew. Very cool.
90’s version just sounds a little bit darker in tone, I absolutely wouldn’t call the OP07 inferior just a bit brighter
Agree for sure!
I've had both and never keep them. I find myself liking the new enhanced versions of this circuit.
Whether you're #KVLT or not about the pedal it's still a great pedal to put with other tone generators.
Thanks Steve.
Definitely great, and I agree there are plenty of "enhanced" versions to choose from as well!
I enjoyed the op7
Sounds great I thought!
Thank you for this great comparrison!
I like the OP07 more, sounds meaner. Can't understand why the LM308 are sold for over 100 bucks used, when this awesome reissue is about 70 bucks brand new.
When I look up the used market there're also way more LM 308 versions for sale than the reissue...seems odd, hm?!
Cheers from Germany, keep it up!
Thanks for watching, Dennis! At $50 or so on the used market the reissue is a great pedal.
I feel like the new one had better sustain and was brighter. I like the new one better. Great demo!!
I have a 1988 ProCo Rat 2 (w/ LM308 chip) and also had a newer Rat 2 (w/ the OP07 chip). IMO these two versions of the pedal are going to sound very similar to each other when played thru an Orange Crush 20 (Solid State) and for me I noticed a world of difference when played thru a tube amp. When I played both versions of these Rats thru a vintage Fender, Traynor or Music Man amp the difference was night and day, the newer RAT sound thin and harsh and my vintage '88 was warmer abit more smooth and with more low-end.
Interesting!
I am on the fence with this one !
I LIKE BOTH ;)
Maybe my board needs both !
You should try finding a Proco roadkill and compare it to either. I picked up one for 30 bucks and it’s my only Rat style pedal so I’ve never compared it with another. Great video, just proves you can’t always believe what you hear.
Slight difference, but both sound great. I’m over here using a $25 Chinese and it’s actually pretty damn close, so use what you got!
Honestly prefer the newer one. Great comparison!
I prefer the LM308 version but the difference is slight enough that I'd be happy with either one. I have a feeling just changing the amp settings a bit would be enough to negate most of the difference.
I think that's probably true! The difference is slight for sure.
*listens on phone speakers* "yeah there is a huge difference" 😂
The difference i hear is much more on low settings for distortion and filter knob, there the old version cleans up more than the new one but who wants to play more clear with a RAT?! On the higher settings of the knobs overall i would say the new OP sounds better, more crispy and less muddy.
I don't think the difference between the 2 is enough to warrant the cost of an LM308 rat. Especially in a band situation/bar show.feels like a case of "vintage" hype verses reality. Great demo as always man, keep doing the Lord(iommi's) work. 🤘🙌👍
Thanks, Richard. There are audible differences, but I think they are pretty close, and it would be hard to really classify one as "better".
@@DoesItDoom I feel like both of them have situations where they'd outshine the other. Either way it's a win/win if you're after the rat sound, just get a rat 🐭
Thanks for the comparison. Both doom very well and honestly they both sound great. Very hard to hear a difference between the two. Basically it comes down to grab either version and you’ll be happy.
Sure thing, Chris. I tend to agree-hard to be disappointed with either version.
I like the sound of the 0P07 better.... more defined. Less muddy than the 90's version.
The lm308n sound more vintage thx for this video 👍🏻
Sure thing man!
I bought a RAT 2, and then the £20 kit on ebay to mod it, so you can have 3 in 1 (RAT/Dirty/Turbo) :)
Great mod!
The OP7 sounds pokey, tighter and brighter than the LM308, warmer and cleaner, which is not necessary a minus in downtuning, the newer Rat adds tightness and punch to lower strings!
Spot on description I think. Thanks!
@@DoesItDoom thanks to you for the video comparison!
Vincenzo Erriquenz sure thing.
Just ordered mine. Can’t wait. EDIT: I got it. I get it. I should’ve got it years ago when I lived in Kzoo.
The OP7 has a tighter upper midrange but essentially they are the same and you could eq the differences away. Good vid tho!
Jeff Barber Agreed. Thanks for watching Jeff!
back in the 80's & 90's I played mostly with an old 87-ish Rat pedal, the one without the LED light. You didn't need a light to know when it was on! ;-) It sounded amazing thru a GK ML E 120w stereo head pumped into a Marshall 4x12.
Sold that Rat when I stopped playing full time. I been playing a little more lately so I bought a Rat2 OP07. When I first plugged it in, I thought yeah- it sounds good but it doesn't have the same ballz as the old Rat. I use the Rat2 as a boost for a PRS MT-15 amp which is amazing all on its own. I also use the Rat2 when I need to tame down the shred for a song or two.
So this week I was going to take that Rat 2 down to the music store and trade it for something different to see what I could find, maybe a PG-14 by JHS or something... but the night before I plugged that Rat2 in one more time to see if I want to part with it and I was like.. Oh man this thing sounds so awesome.... why would I ever trade it?? so i kept it. :D
In this review, I probably prefer the 308 just because its a little tighter in the low-mid end when setting the knobs identical, but the 07 can probably be tweaked to match the 308 close enough for my taste.
The OP07 sustains for much longer and is just generally much louder... I feel thats an amazing upgrade, even if its so subtle and miniature that most can barely notice, but that's what I was hearing!
Maybe Gear Snobs will finally shut up for once with some good drone quality at a cheap price..
I think you’ll find that the mids are where the newer Rat shines the low end is pretty much the same
LM has lightly less high mids BUT that can almost 100% be down to electronics having a slight variance in rating, especially with older ones having a larger variance
Both pedals sound great. It's very subtle but I think the new pedal is more excited and maybe a little squashed. The older pedal sounds like it has more dynamic nuance, natural breathing. When I do blind test I can barely hear the difference. The distortion profile sounds pretty much the same
i got one i was placeboed into thinking it was the original for the longest time. been first on my board for 20 years now. it was late 90s but had the old knobs and old enclosure and feet. whats not apparent from above is how the ProCo label on the bottom front is sized different. i swore i had the old one for the longest. i could pick out how it was better than the new one i believed. other guitarists with the new one said it was better too. we were all fools. it was the OP amp the whole time. now i cant pick out a significant difference. even with the big box models. i think some amps can do a better job highlighting the very tiny difference in the chip but ultimately, you can get the same sounds from both. you just gotta set the knobs the littlest bit different. if you want a more significant diffetence, JHS makes a mod that has a different character about it. alot more headroom and alot more bass. possibly alot more doom. theres also pedals that put their own little spin on the base rat like the 1981. ive seen a Catlinbread one that looked interesting too, which use tone bender circuits with the rats. its called a Katzenkonig. theres also the other rats to try. theres the turbo rat, the fat rat, the Dirty Rat (mix of old timey germanium with normal rat stuff) and theres something called the Brat from Proco that i cant at this moment recall what it was that made it different. so yea, you can definetly get your own flavor of Rat, but the Rat 2 is for the most part so much the same youd be hard pressed to really make it matter if you got the old chip or not
A month ago, with my friend we made similar test. New rat2 with op7 vs. new rat2 with lm308. The most noticable thing is slightly different clipping. I left op7 in my rat2, but if someone want to change the chip, cost of lm308 is like 2-3$.
Cool to test that way I’m sure!
Both sound great. Nothing a tweak of a knob couldn't fix. Depends on snob value, I guess. Especially if you're throwing out more than 120 decibels!
Both great for sure.
Utterly identical. For DIYers, go OP-07. I’ve bought so many LM308s, and I have never gotten an authentic one. The market is riddled with counterfeits, go with OP-07 that has no counterfeits.
Lots of counterfeits for sure. They sound very similar either way.
You may be right, otherwise there might not be so many readily available n.o.s. LM308's available on the market as there are.
You may be right, otherwise there might not be so many readily available n.o.s. LM308's available on the market as there are.
Both sound great. It’s a Rat! If you don’t mind taking things apart you can switch chips.
I've been perfectly happy with my newer rat. Seems more aggressive to me which I always like
Great pedal 👍🏻
Do I prefer the LM308? Yes. Am I gonna spend extra money for it? Probably not. Messing with my guitars tone know and amps controls will make the new one sound good. Also for the price I've seen some old ones go for I'd rather support a smaller brand! Nice comparison.
EQ-able for sure. Thanks for watching!
When he switched it, i didnt even notice a change at all.
They are slightly different, but both great.
I'd go with the OP07. Just because of the slightly lower output. Knowing that the LM306 had a slightly lower output would set off my ocd. Though the true test for any pedal is to run it into a pedal chain with every distortion and fuzz pedal you have. Then run every pedal on max. Though I can't guarantee that your amp will not blow up and the windows of your place will not pop.
Haha! Nice.
There was something to the midrange in the LM308 version that I preferred, but it was pretty minuscule. It took me a couple tries to hear the difference. For the big range in price, I would be hard pressed to get the olde me pedal. I just bought the stuff to make a clone of a Rat and start modding the circuit and I bought a OP07 opamp. Not unhappy with my decision.
Pretty similar overall.
I'm a self professed RAT addict, I run a few actual rats and a few "clones" on my board for most of my drive needs, never less than 3 often times 2 lm308 flat tops, one set up to drive my amp a little harder (think tube screamer with the gain down volume up [but hard clipped] and one with all knobs dimed for droning sound we all love, and the jhs packrat (check it out) set up to be a mediumish high distortion I use for heavy rythem and lately for vintage style driven solo sounds (think maggot brains when the trip really hits). The lm308 to my ears (in comparison to op07 and whatever opamp jhs selected) has a more raw and compressed sound, and will push my tube amps into that dying crackle much earlier. The jhs has an enormous amount of headroom, even in the classic mode, but it retains all the rat goodness but seems more high mid focused and more aggressive.
For serious rat lovers check out gremlin noise machines raiden, I recently got one with the lm108 tin can op amp and its changed my world.
Great info!!
Hey man, you're not alone. Graham Coxon was a Rat-addict.
Digger, have you tried the Life Pedal?
@@trevillyan5515 I have not! Sold out on me both times, and those marked up reverb prices are too much! I hear they are killer!
JHS did a break down of this recently finding the chips are essentially identical! so any differences might be due to more aged components or the like. if the output of one is lower it could mean one of the components was faulty too.
Just recently picked up a new rat this past week. My only complaint is that i didnt pick one up sooner.
Understandable!
I think the OP07 sounds colder, which makes it better suited to drone
I just bought a rat 2 days ago and I think it's the OP07? due to the knob type. Fortunately for me😅 I think that one sounds better👍
Sounds great for sure.
I don't think there is less low bass end on the newer one, just less low mids. To my ears anyway. I think there is more clarity in the newer one. BTW, the Rat was my first pedal ever. In '83. Damn, I wish I still had that!!!
You know, the biggest difference between these pedals is the filter sweep and overall total volume, which to me is more of a sign of differences in pots than anything to do with the Op-Amp being used in either unit. Sure, there is some difference in the Op-Amps, but it's not affecting the sound we hear as much as the +/-20% of the pots at certain values. That extra brightness on the new one I would bet comes down to the pot value on the filter.
Frankly, changing the Op-Amp is negligible compared to the other changes ProCo has made to the Rat. For example, V1 RATs from 79-81 had a Tone Control instead of the Filter Control most of us are familiar with. Those earlier Rats also had different clipping diodes, too. In fact, I think Pro Co figured this out too, which is why the only difference between the modern production rats (Like the RAT2, Turbo Rat, Dirty Rat, etc) is how they modify the clipping stage with different diodes. The only other feature I see in any of the RAT pedals is the SOLO pedal that adds a midrange scoop along with the 3 way Diode toggle. That to me makes more of a pronounced difference than swapping OP07s for LM308s, hence I think it's just not worth the time to swap the Op-Amp.
What does this mean? Simple. The magic of the RAT is the circuit, and ProCo really got it right. I don't think there's a magic Op-Amp for RATs, much like there isn't a magic Op-Amp for Tubescreamers. It's the circuit that we love. Let's save the component chasing for Transistors in old Fuzz Pedal designs, and let's just enjoy the RAT for what it is, a really good distortion pedal and one of the best value propositions on the pedal market.
Very insightful and I imagine very true! Thanks 🙏🏻
Op08 sounds clearer! With filter a bit more closed compared to LM308, they must sound almost the same! I think I prefer OP08. Thank you for the video! This is so good
they're both good. the newer one may be a small bit brighter, all things being equal.
my opinion - people get far too hung up on "magic" components. it has more to do with the circuit as a whole.
Agreed.
I think OP07 sounds better. Richer in harmonics and maybe a little longer sustain. But it's hard to judge. I've got Turbo Rat with op07 and don't use it. Maybe i should start to.
I think I'd prefer the newer Rat honestly. Have you tried the Mooer Black Secret??
Me too
I did a blind test between the black secret and an 80s big box rat. they were identical. the rat was $120, the black secret was $40 and 1/4 of the size.
Both sound killer.. but the new one DOOMS harder to me.. I love the Rat pedal.. its the top of the heap to me for the Doom tone
My whole thing is, if anything has to be debated to such an extent theres probably not much there. When you listen to different muffs it's easy to hear a difference. These rats, not so much
Definitely more of a difference in Muffs in my experience as well.
And with Muffs it’s only due to the inconsistency in production, not actual planning. lol
The Cmatmods Black Plague ended my hunt for a Rat!
Wide open or higher gain settings i think it’s hard to justify spending more but I wonder if the differences (whatever they are) would be more pronounced at lower overdrive territory gain settings , for blues type stuff, just a thought
Honestly, I really couldn't tell that much of a difference. Perhaps the older version had a bit more fuzz to it and the newer version was a touch less fuzzy, but considering that the pots in each one vary greatly (taking two pots at random from a bag, they'll all be fairly different) and sometimes caps and resistors can have variance in them, I really would like to see a faceoff between an earlier Rat circuit and a newer one à la breadboard, so they're still using the same pots and most of the same resistors. That way, it is really only the op amps that change.
All certainly true!