I had a similar experience with a Tai Chi guy. We got talking about the Systema punch and he said he had an idea what they were doing and he back-fisted me on my chest. It didn't even look like a hard punch but I felt the power of the strike all through my body right down to my heels. I literally felt like a spike getting hit by a hammer and driven into the ground. It was very cool and very strange.
This is due to the whip action of the punches. and easily done with a back fist. Also why the Pak Mei guys seem like they are flailing arms but they are actually whipping their fists. they can't actually hit a training partner with those punches that's why the sparing and demonstrations look different its not full force they are pulling punches by not whipping. The punch snaps or cracks the whip 1 inch below the surface of the target. This is the real principle of the 1 inch punch that nobody seems to understand or talk about. Try striking with wrist weights that are just slightly loose and you will see what I mean. With the added mass the whip action becomes more apparent. also the fist only closes at the end of the "whip crack" punch concentrating the mass on impact and helping the whip action happen. if you throw your jab and straight punches this way you will hit with greater force. its harder to do with any hook or cross. if you do this the tendons in your arms act like rubber bands and the stored energy will rebound and withdrawing your hand is half done for you if you don't hit anything of course. This is done by relaxing completely right after the crack. It takes practice to get the whipping action right and can be done with fingers too bui jee. And is probably why Pak Mei is known to be deadly with supposed dim mak or death touch techniques when in reality they are just causing internal bleeding. if you've ever been whipped with a towel and bled or had a blood blister you will know the principle I speak of. This probably inspired the eyeball snatch and death of Bill in Tarantino's Kill Bill movies. Hit just right with the right technique an artery or organ can be ruptured causing someone to bleed out into their own body. Bruce Lee was famous for his whipping back fist and punching speed with arm whip recoil.
I get the concept and my friends and I have injured each other trying this out. But it's not martial arts or self defence because it doesn't work in any real situation.
@@peetiegonzalez1845 a striking mechanic with works or doesn't work, if it lets you hit hard in training it lets you hit hard in a fight. the problem is that having good body mechanics won't by itself make you a competent fighter. that requires and understanding not only of body mechanics, but also range, timing, setup and a bunch of other things most classes on internal martial arts don't really cover. it also requires actually putting your understanding of all of those things into practice against a resisting opponent, which most classes also don't do.
@@yamiyomizuki Totally agree. But the weirdly devastating force of a systema "punch" is difficult to comprehend. I don't think it would ever be possible to land a blow like that in real combat, but as I said... my friends and I have injured each other just trying to practice it, when we thought it was relatively harmless.
Bak Mei is a "Hakka" style. It uses specific "Hard internal" mechanics. These fighting styles are built for skinny alleyways where you are forced to hold your ground and fight head on like this. Also, the Hakka arts were an influence on the Indonesian arts.
Wing Chun guy here The hard internal mechanics is called short power. They are definitely experts at short power because besides going forward like the Wing Chun punch, they can aim their short power horizontally vertically or diagonally. Without short power, even you know the pak mei movements it won't be as effective
There is value in forms, beyond health. Repeating the same movements over and over makes you more in tune with the mechanics of the movement, it teaches you to put all aspect of your being behind the movement which makes it crazy powerful. Now... You still need drilling, sparring and fighting to be able to do it consistently against live opponents.
@@inside_fighting Now that you have done this video, I invite you to do one for its Hakka sister style, Lung Ying Kuen. Kinda reminded me of the Peek-a-boo style of boxing, in which forward pressure and leaning are emphasized, which is a quite a coincidence, given that you just done one about that one too. It'd be apt for someone like you to explore the intricacies of those Hakka arts, given their internal but hard approach. The Basket-case structure, the high stance, with the belly sucked up inside, chest concaved, shoulders squared. Minimum size frame. I'm telling you, even amongst their own practitioners, hybritizing between Muay Thai and their arts seem quite logical? Like, I realize that these arts still need full-contact-sparring and cross-training (with outside arts, this time), but you have the openness of the mind when delving into traditional arts, having practiced modern ones as well, and that's rare.
Oh for sure, one shouldn't dismiss "forms & kata's so easily, There was a well respected kung fu stylist back in the day who was also a PKA kickboxing champion - Paul Vizzio , who's Sifu happened to be the same Wai Hong of the Fu Jow Pai/ Tiger claw style. I can go on about my Senpai's in Kyokushin/ Seido who fought in kickboxing matches and became champions. Traditional kata can help with body mechanics, economy in your motion and just 'good form' period.
practicing that same move in every delivery imaginable, while moving in every direction, while imagining an opponent is being blocked/thrown/locked/struck will always reveal new things to any practioner
I’m 53 years old and I trained in combat sports until I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia at the age of 30. I thought it was the end of my training because I could no longer do high impact exercises and heavy sparring. I was depressed and feeling suicidal. Then I pulled myself up and started practicing again without the heavy sparring. Keeping myself sharp by using low impact techniques with slow and deliberate training helped me preserve what I had learned. I spar lightly and I always let my partner know about my medical condition so they go easy on me. Body in motion stays in motion. Body at rest stays at rest. I learn a lot from your channel. Thank you for sharing.
Bak Mei literally means white eyebrow the elder Master was said to be one of 5 survivors from shaolin Temple when it was destroyed by the Qing Dynasty. Legend says he betrayed the shaolin temple to save his students from being killed during the destruction and was later forced to train the emperors soldiers in a second destruction of shaolin after rebuilding. His real name was shrouded in mystery supposedly he never told anyone after shaolin's destruction to protect his family and due to his white eyebrows they literally called him that. The character from Kill Bill is indeed inspired by this legendary master. Interestingly Ng Mui was also one of the 5 legendary elders from shaolin that survived. She was the originator of Wing Chun and the style was named after her student Yim Wing Chun both women who needed a stickier style to defeat men with more power. at very close range it is difficult to generate striking power and has a more "borrow force" approach. Both Bak Mei and Wing Chun have a common origin at Shaolin Temple hence their similarities but also their differences can be attributed to the strengths and weaknesses of who developed the style and how well the techniques have been passed down through time(think of the game telephone) the style is changed and reinterpreted by each master over the millennia but many of the core principals and movements remain the same. There are 8 lineages of Wing Chun that trace to Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun, the Ip Man lineage being one of them. I am not sure how many lineages are in Bak Mei and the similarities are rooted in the original Shaolin Temple masters including the Mook Yan Jong literally "wooden man post" now referred to as Wing Chun dummy or wooden dummy forms. The dummy is not for conditioning or toughening arms but to learn proper footwork shifting/pivoting hips to generate torque and getting off line and attacking the center while sticking close to the body and arms for trapping and neutralizing power. Most of the strikes are palm or chopping blade hand strikes. it's not really meant to be hit with fists with any force. that's what we use wall bags for. some people put a pad on the dummy to practice chain punches but it isn't traditionally used for that it's a modern adaptation to training. The Mook Ya Jong is a body positioning and footwork movement training aid primarily. Also note how the arms are cut off at the elbows this is so the trapping techniques occur on the upper arms of an opponent and your arms have more leverage with body torque in close range by "fixing" your elbow to your body. You have more leverage on a large mass the closer it is to you. Think of someone swinging a bat or a hook punch, if you are at the tip of the bat swing you are toast but if you move in at the handle the force of the swing is less and jammed up too.
Which one? The northern temple that we know for a fact exists or is this one of the legends surrounding the mythical Southern shaolin temple? Honestly curious i'm not familiar with the legend of bak mei
@@gnos1s171 do some research. The Qing dynasty is ancient and is the basis of the modern word China. Qing, King or Ching. Some of it is legend and not written facts because it embarrassed the emperors and it was forbidden and practiced in secret. Even under Mao the martial arts were frowned upon until recent modern history. Even the communistic PRC tried to burry martial arts until they realized it's utility and cultural value in the 20th century I think Bruce lee and movies had a lot to do with the awakening. Modern Shaolin and Wu Shu is but a fraction of the martial arts of ancient times when Shaolin thrived, most of the masters and disciples were killed. leaven only a few remote temples in the Qing conquest. The lineages of Bak Mei and Wing Chun and all other southern style Kuen are living proof these Masters did in fact pass their art to students in secret and for centuries keeping the arts alive during oppression. What knowledge that has been lost is legend and speculation. What knowledge that has been preserved can be cross referenced in the similarities among and between the various martial arts styles from China and Japan. Yes I said Japan because Japanese and Koreans and all Asians besides India descend from Chinese ancestors so do their martial arts. and there are A LOT of them but they all have core similarities that trace to the Ancient Buddhist Shaolin Temples of which there were many and varied forms of the religion and martial arts. some focusing more on meditation and spiritualism like Tai Chi Chuan forms. Think of the many different sects of Christianity. There were many sects of Shaolin Buddhism with hundreds of martial and spiritual practices.. I have ancestry in China and Foshan my mom is from Hong Kong. I have been to China multiple times and I study Various martial arts.
@@WholeCosmos Hey I never said there was anything wrong with the kung fu itself, I'm a baihequan (fujian white crane kung fu) practitioner which is a style that heavily influenced and many consider the origin of both karate and wing chun, I have a huge respect for these styles, the problem is, while there's no direct proof the temple existed, only legends and folklore, on top of that, in fujian province there's already multiple different temples in the that all claim to be the original southern shaolin temple, and also at the main shaolin temple in the North of China in henan province the style they teach in the temple I will agree is watered down however, and the villages around it in songshan like cui zhongwu, hu zhengsheng aka shaolin xinyiba on youtube, seem to have preserved a lot of the practicality check out a guy on youtube called shaolin yuzhai and his videos where he shows forms and applications
Bai-Mei is another name for this style of kung fu. The short documentary about it and it explains how it should be applied. The relaxation that Eli talks is called Song Zhong or Heavy relaxation that internal CMAs (Chinese martial arts) do. I truly enjoy that Eli analyzes and gives respectful comments on theses traditional styles. Hope he checks out Bajiquan (Bah-Jee-Chwan), which is a heavy striking and body check style of TCMA
Really would like Bajichuan around me but for CMA it’s slim slim slim pickin’s. (Detroit, we box & we MMA a little) Have thought of moving to Chicago or even farther to PacNorthWest just for something like that (and did I mention I live in f*ing Detroit)
@@_Pauper_ there's good online classes for Baji-Quan. obviously you aren't really going to learn to fight from that, but you can learn the mechanics, and for Baji-Quan that's a pretty big step.
@@_Pauper_ I'm in the Chicago area, and I don't think there is any Baji around here. There's some good Chinese style classes, but as far as I can tell, the Japanese styles are more common. But remember, it's the singer, not the song. Finding a good teacher is more important than finding a certain style.
I'm biased, if you train Karate hardcore, you can be at a Muay Thai level of fighting without drastic changes IN MY OPINION. Part of this is seeing Karate in MMA being used. At the same time you can do the kata and bunkai as you age. I'm 40. I cannot do Muay Thai like I could at 20. But I can still do Karate and it doesn't feel like my body is falling apart the next day.
My favorite difference with Wing Chun is… WC like most styles mostly trains for “best case scenario.” In terms of having perfect position, structure, etc. Every Hakka style often trains scenarios with your beginning position being, “you’re already in trouble. How do you recover?” You’ve already failed, your balance is off already, the other guy already has control of you, etc… it’s not always perfect Hakka style is not Wing Chun’s baby, it’s the other way around. Wing Chun is a sub-set of skills that were only meant to be taught to people who were already proficient fighters. Everyone would tell you this in the 80s. But, as time went on especially post-Ip Man Movie people started running with the line that Wing Chun is a “complete system.” NAH. It was previously understood pretty universally that Wing Chun is not even meant to be a complete system. It’s a specific skillset. It would be like trying to teach Newaza as an entire complete self defense system…. Oh… wait….. White Eyebrow was a very hot rival of Wing Chun in Hong Kong. Wing Chun “specialty” is sticking. Bak Mei speciality is “wiping off” (not being stuck to). It is a direct counter to Wing Chun, and 5x more vicious. Wing Chun is much more associated with high society. Passed among rich families. Ip man’s family was wealth. Yuen Kay San’s family own a fireworks/explosives factory - they picked up Wing Chun from a Constable (like a police chief). Hakka style is much more survivalist mentality. There are even tactics for throwing powder in the eyes or loose coins. Hidden knives. Using an opium pipe as a weapon. The Hakka People are also the source of Most of the big uprisings and rebellions down south. Eventually they joined with the Qing against outsiders like The French. All of that to say… the mentality is way Way WAY different than Wing Chun, as is the level of pedigree. There is a video, if you can find it, of an elder Hakka Mantis guy named Ng Si Kay. He is inside of a Muay Thai gym. The man is in his 70s atleast. To show the level of conditioning he stands there and lets them leg kick him repeatedly. Hard. Both sides at the same time. That’s how those guys train. You train by getting HIT, HARD, every class. But also learning HOW to take a hit. It’s similar to your boxing training, getting punched while you do pull ups or getting hit with the medicine ball. But, it’s the entire body. Even if your back and your neck, and even retracting your balls if a guy tries a cheap shot. They’re gottdamn hardcore… it’s like China’s Lethwei minus having a formalized league for competition - unfortunately it’s not nearly popular enough to make that sustainable
All the southern styles of kung fu look somewhat similar because they all come from similar roots in the Southern Shaolin Temple and are influenced by the Hakka (an ethnic sub-group of the Chinese from southeastern China...sort of like gypsies in Europe, lots of migrants and need to self-defend). There's a lot of emphasis on close quarters hand techniques, power generation in small spaces ("fa jin" in Chinese), strong rooting with the footing, not much kicking, parrying rather than blocking, an emphasis on ending fights fast, applications for knives, etc. These styles spread through the South China Sea region with the trading networks. You see them in the roots of Okinawan karate, Filipino martial arts, etc. A lot of it makes sense when you think about it being for use on boats and in port cities when the ground is wet or uneven, you're not wearing a lot of jackets, there are gangs controlling the harbors, lots of petty crime, and its very close quarters. Long story short...its a close cousin of Wing Chun, not a parent.
I used to train Systema probably 15 years ago. I remember getting punched in the chest and feeling the shockwave exit from my butt cheek. I was completely dumbfounded by that punch. It buckled that leg momentarily as that punch (the only way I can describe it) exited my body. Such a bizarre sensation
You are looking at two very different methods both called Bak Mei. The crazy arm flinging as you put it is Fatsan style. The old guy and the guy on the dummy are Guangzhou CLC.
That’s my Sifu at 4;14 ,Sifu Simon Lui Long Chun. The difference with Wing Chun is that Pak Mei uses “startle” or shock power which is trained from the get go. Look up my Kung Fu uncle Adam Chans interview on the Martial Man channel for details on Pak Mei. You are right about how it “feels” to be on the receiving end from this kind of training. The French guys are Fatsan Pak Mei which are very very different technically to CLC Pak Mei (as represented by my Sifu).
Wing Chun guy here We also use your Shock power but only using it in our punches. You guys definitely use it more often, whether it be horizontal, vertical or diagonally.
Thanks for the vid. For why the difference in spelling and pronunciation, as someone mentioned before, it's the difference in between the two dialects, Mandarin and Cantonese. The 'Bak Mei' transliteration is Cantonese, since it's popuarized/originated from the area that mostly speak that, but if you show the same characters to someone speaking Mandarin, you'll get 'Pai Mei' instead. Hope this clears it up a bit!
Good analysis, Ilan. Bak Mei is quite characteristically a Southern Chinese system. It has a lot in common with many Southern systems, such as Wuzuquan. Indeed, with very minor adjustments, I could convert any Bak Mei form into a Wuzuquan form (and they could do the opposite). Because of the similarities between Bak Mei and Wuzuquan, when that chap is waving his hands around "like a psychopath", I can see exactly what he is doing and the biomechanics behind it. Keeping the hands by the armpits, by the way, is an *exercise* to develop mobility in the scapula. It is not a guard position. Scapular mobility is fundamental to Southern Chinese systems. Chinese training is supposed to be a layer cake, with forms at the bottom building structure, position movement into the student. Unfortunately, a lot of schools these days never move past that. Or perhaps they only go as far as the next layer. So those people can only make their art "work" against compliant partners. Fully agree with what you say about pressure testing. The top two layers should incur a risk of getting hurt, otherwise they are useless. Sparring/Rolling Resistant Partner Work Compliant Partner Work Forms (structure/position/movement) Regarding your comparison of what you see in Bak Mei to what you have seen in Wing Chun, I would argue that Wing Chun is *supposed to* have a "loose biomechanical structure" and "step on outside lines". I practise neither of those systems but the principles are similar enough to Wuzuquan for me to be able to recognise them. Liked and subscribed, by the way. All the best from Madrid!
I can tell you why the hands by armpits more than head thing is common in Chinese trad MA: Small, light folk, very little rotation in a multitude of styles, and always bare knuckle means there aren't a whole bunch of full power knockout attempting punches, and even fewer with angles and setups. Winning fights was all about causing enough soft tissue trauma to get an opponent to admit defeat. Related point: Ever been punched in the armpit? Really frikken hurts, and hard enough shots you'll be feeling for months. That's why so many trad styles have guards to stop liver shots and armpit strikes. I mean, you make a martial art prior to micro-surgery being a thing and want to drop bombs on chins, or do you want to have your public display of superiority loudly acknowledged by the hardest guy in town begging publicly for mercy after getting bruised ribs? When your choice is going for that or risking a broken hand mid-fight...
The "weird" Wing-Chun stance, Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma, as seen in most forms and Chi Sau has a clear purpose. It is to prepare your legs for the walking stance which does have a lead leg, simmilar as how a horse stance is trained in other chinese martial arts. Most of the actual footwork comes from Chum Kiu the second form and the dummy. The "weird" stance can also be used in training to isolate your hand techniques. Since you do not have a back leg you cannot compensate by redirecting force to the ground, which shows the effect of how well your deflections work. Also if you lean into your techniques you will we off balance since you do not have a front leg to catch yourself. This does NOT mean you stand this way in all drills, sparring or fighting as often is thought. It's exactly what you explain around the 6 minute mark. "As soon as something does not look the way we expect it must be bad. And we go on youtube and watch video's and criticize people". Not all people have been to a legit Wing-Chun instructor asked them questions, exhanged techniques and then formed their opinion. Most just watch youtube video's of novices imitating Ip Man after they have seen the movies and think they know what Wing-Chun is or is not. Pak Mei and Wing-Chun have a simmilar way to generate power through stepping and pushing off the back leg. Some styles like Xing Yi will actually stomp with their steps to exaggerate the importance of your step and punches all stopping at the same time in order to put your bodyweight into the movement. The Pak Mei forms as shown here do look like just arm movements as does Wing-chun but in application most movements will be acompanied by a step. My guess is that adding a step to every movement will take up more space and distract from learning the hand techniques. Forms are mostly a way to internalize shapes and an easy way to standardize and pass on movement, they are not the main training method for fighting of course.
Great video! I've practiced Yau Kung Mun for 20 years which is a related art to Bak Mei. We use many of the same forms. You presented a very balanced view of Bak Mei with both positives and negatives. Very well balanced! I also like your comment that you're not a martial artist if you're not out making a fool of yourself in public with it. I've been making a fool of myself for more than 40 years! Case in point: When we had the grand opening of a new Whole Foods, the place was packed. I used Baguazhang footwork to make my way through the crowd. I actually had people applauding me. Also, when my JKD/FMA instructor and I went to a Francis Fong seminar, we took a lunch break at Beef O'Brady's. While going over our notes, we disagreed on something we went over in the seminar, so my instructor and I stood up and went through it right there until we both remembered it. Thanks again for a great video!
I remember while I was living in NYC there was a Chinese guy who taught this style as that narrator explained "White Eyebrow" the monk who formed it supposedly had white eyebrows 😊. I gave them credit back then because they did full contact sparring and would do a lot of hand and body conditioning. I'll give you a example, his students would compete in Wai Hongs full contact tournament in New York's China town.
My dad taught me Pak Mei when I was a kid. I still bust out in some Pak Mei moves from time to time, lol. There's also a Pak Mei master in California named Zhong Luo, who's also a BJJ black belt and local MMA promoter. I did a deep dive into him a while back. He was showing the hand conditioning exercises in one of his videos. He said if you don't condition your fists, the techniques don't work, lol. Also, Adam Chan/The Kung Fu Report has a series on Hakka Kung Fu, which Pak Mei is a branch of. You can learn more about the technical aspects of it there.
Hello. I met Zhong Luo when he first came to the United States. I met him through a guy named Bert Rodriguez, who did Wing Chun in the Chris Chan lineage. This was before Zhong Luo got involved with BJJ. Zhong Luo learned two styles of kung fu from his father, Pak Mei and Lung Ying. Pak Mei built speed, Lung Ying built power. A strong combination. One thing that was a little different about how he blocked punches was he would twist his forearm right when he made contact so it wasn’t so much a block as a forearm punch. One thing I also know, Zhong Luo got one of his tattoos from Bert Rodriguez. I know Zhong Luo is still in San Francisco, but I lost track of Bert Rodriguez. I checked where his Wing Chun school used to be, it is now a Bikram Yoga studio.
It's really refreshing to listen to a guy on CZcams who isn't constantly criticizing traditional martial arts and their effectiveness/or lack of effectiveness. I really like your comment about the fact that even older people, when they are dedicated to their art, can continue to practice it even at an advanced age. I really appreciate your work and your analyses.
I appreciate your effort to give credit even to systems you don't understand. Your lack of familiarity with TCMA training methodology shows, when you critique the presumed difference between the guy doing moves in the air and showing applications with a partner. Of course to me, as a kung fu practitioner, it looks like he's doing the exact same thing😄 But the fact that you're willing to give the benefit of a doubt even to things that don't make sense to you, is an intellectually humble attitude that we don't get nearly enough of in the martial arts community
The art you're watching is one of 2 branches of Pak Mei, and has very little in common (mainly outside of a general spirit of close-range aggression and perhaps some distant common origin) with the more mainstream CLC Pak Mei. Emphasis on sparring will depend entirely on the instructor. In the school I train at, you can easily spend a third of the class on sparring, with an additional separate class mostly devoted in its entirety to sparring. We have two styles of sparring. One is full contact all-out in MMA gloves and helmet. The other is called "bridges" and is common in the Chinese arts. It's somewhat more similar to flow-rolling in BJJ. I'm guessing the people in the video you're getting tripped up on were engaging in a similar exercise. We don't wail on each other's heads when we aren't wearing gear and so yes, there is some slapping of the arms, hands, and face. Try not to lose sleep over it. Like virtually any other art, our best, fittest, and youngest pattycake players would demolish your average practitioner, and yours would do the same to our average guy. There are only so many ways the human body can move. Martial arts are simply systems for teaching and passing down fighting concepts through the years.
It's an interesting style to say the least. But like you said they need more sparring. They prioritize offense over defense, often the two are combined. I also read a book in which they described the forces in the style as floating, sinking, swallowing and spitting. By combining them you get interesting combinations that resemble the pulling and striking you might see in karate. This video called "白眉 Pak Mei in the court" shows the ideas I mentioned: watch?v=UnsXP2v1iIs
Great video! Like other guys have noted, Bak Mei and Wing Chun are sort of kissing cousins. They look similar because they both have that Southern Shaolin background and come from the same area of south China. (Fatshan? Futshan?) That area also spawned Monk Fist Boxing, one of the branches of White Crane, and lots of Okinawa’s went there to study and avoid mandatory Japanese Army service so it’s where karate styles like Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu get their influences from. I never studied it, but it always had a good reputation among the Chinese I trained with for producing tough fighters. I know what you mean about things that don’t look biomechanically sound sometimes hitting like a sledgehammer. I was talking with a Tai Chi teacher at a tournament in Cleveland years ago. He was known for his body conditioning and would just stand there and let guys punch and kick him while he laughed at them. Anyway, we started talking about the 5 elements in TCMA and he hit me 5 times with the same motion in the same spot but each one felt completely different. I remember wood felt like it entered my gut, turned down and just thudded into my tailbone. Water felt like it went in my gut and kept spinning like a tire as it passed out my back. And I remember fire didn’t seem to penetrate, but stung like a sonofabitch.
Well said, there's not enough people acknoledging the 3 aspects of martial ARTs, self defense and combat sports, which are different with some overlapping qualities. I train all 3, sometimes I'm more into one aspect than another... but I think it's key to understand the differences and commonalities, and respect all 3 which all can benefit you :)
Man I really like your take. I'm a wing chun sifu and honestly I'm really seeing a lot of things come full circle in all aspects of fighting due to watching videos such as yours. I like to see what other guys are doing and sew if what I am doing is trash or not? Granted I do believe some things are meant to attack or defend certain style attacks and such. People hate wing chun but cannot debunk physics or science so how can it be bad? But imagine when it wc was created who were these people fighting and against what types of attacks? Beyond that just like you said besides helio who have you seen still doing at such a late age? Plus, there will always be a better fighter. I see bjj, karate, whatever guys get f upd all the time on fight nights😂
Yes for me all martial arts have value and something to improve me but it’s just a matter of what. Sometimes it’s a lot and sometimes it’s a niche aspect of how i move. It’s all very interesting.
Good video. It’s interesting to see the difference of the older master vs the current young representative. Pay particular attention to how they are connected to their legs. The younger guy lack roots and does not seem to have much power transfer (he is all upper body) where as the older guys is as stable as a tree. It’s even more visible with the student student you showed a bit of, that he only move his upper body in ways that are way too disconnected to be efficient. Speed and relaxation are essential but only effective if they are linked through the body to the ground. Otherwise they just bounce off like a tennis ball.
Most unbiased martial arts CZcamsr I've seen. You try to be objective and, knowing complete objectivity is not possible, you acknowledge your biases. I wish I could find a person like you for every topic I'm interested in.
There are different branches of Pak Mei. The Pak mei used in the game sifu is from Fatshan province. This branch uses a lot the leopard fist and it is lesser spread in Western countries. The monk Pak Mei has broken the neck of a top Shaolin master.
6:45 You know what that reminds me? A story from a certain practitioner who punched a guy in the stomach and later found out that the guy had broken ribs... on his back. Traditionally punches are supposed to send a wave across your body. That's why in fiction it is visualised in hitting a stack of bricks in a way that only the last one breacks. It's an exageration of that specific skill. In Okinawa it is called nenten. That's also why the second hand goes to hikite position in basic drills. It's to teach your body and your brain the principles of counter rotation. At high level you're suppsoed to create many counter rotations with your body while performing any technique which creates immense destructive power. That's how with a very short motions you can break bones and joints without making any wide motions. I love this concept because it creates a perspective of never ending way of perfecting yourself. There is no limit.
A lot of Kung Fu styles have a steep learning g curve to combat effectiveness, but hard to deal with when you achieve competence, and are definitely sustainable into your latter years. Oh and what you described is called hydrostatic shock, many kung fu styles focus on penetration over power to cause organ damage
I was surprised by the history part of the intro. They said that the supposed founder, Bak Mei, was one of the 5 Elders who survived the burning of the Southern Shaolin temple. Growing up doing Kenpo with a heavy Hung Gar influence, all the stuff I ever read or heard had Bak Mei being the so-called “traitor” who led the Ch’ing soldiers into the temple and helped burn it. NOT one of the 5 monks who survived the attack. Does that mean anything in 2023? No. But it is what it is.
Both are (supposedly) true. :-) Bak Mei survived the temple burning but (depending on the story) helped the Chi'ng Government hunt down and kill Ng Mui, Fong Sai Yuk, Jee Sin Sim, and Miu Hin. :-) There are many variations on the lore, but the ones that come from Wing Chun, Hung Gar, or Choy Li Fut traditions (because of Jee Sin and Ng Mui) state that Bak Mei turned on the other monks as a matter of political pragmatism (siding with the Government). Practitioners of Bak Mei, Bak Lung Ying, or Bak Fu may have heard different stories where Bak Mei was a hero or a double agent working against the Chi'ngs. Of course, it doesn't matter now. But the stories are interesting. :-)
To the gentleman who posted this video you have to remember that practicing forms is in of itself shadow boxing with a swt form of attack and defense patterns which can be built upon and to most is enjoyable to watch
After watching a Bruce Lee successor tournament to see who was the best in fighting and a short heavy set old guy plucked a mans eyeballs out and threw them out of the ring. It really opened my eyes to different martial arts. I first thought the guy was a snake style fighting but when he struck it wasn't like a snake. It was more bird like motion and very sickening to see a grown man screaming with blood running down his hands onto his shirt. Not sure if the old boy made it through or not but my master always said that the sparing between 2 true masters was as delicate as fighting with porcelain dools and not trying to brake them. I had to stop training because I have a violent temper and some of the fights I've seen were just scary . I love the videos because you're spot on on everything I've heard you try to teach.
hy, 1. as far as I know, pak/bak is derived from mandarin/cantonize. like beigine, or pekin, kung fu or gong fu. 2. since this style is way older than wing chun, so maybe wing chun chain punch reminds this style, not vice versa XD. 3. yes, kill bill is tributing this style and legendary figure, at least by name if not by choreography. 4. the awesome penetrating strikes that you mentioned, well, if you ever come to Haifa, Israel, I believe I can teach you this pretty easily. 5. my teacher, is a real master (and I hate using this word) if you look to feel extremely powerful strikes of internal nature.
I appreciate that you keep things positive. Systema gets a bad rap, but I don't think any style hits harder, and they teach how to recover from hard hits. Employing the hard hits is a different issue, but I think there's things there that you're not going to find elsewhere. Most of the Kung Fu styles teach Centerline Theory; I don't see it taught elsewhere. Centerline Theory is critical to managing distance. Combat Geometry is also important to closing distance. Chain Punching has a specific place for applying it effectively. If you automatically dismiss these Martial Arts, you're missing out on what they have to teach.
A lot of kungfu systems get 'softer' as you go up in skill. And penetrative hits are trained as the goal. They look kind of 'lazy' and soft, and sometimes don't even hurt that much to take for the first 5 seconds and then it feels like a small bomb went off deep inside the target. PS - the big guy is Johnathan Barbary, Pak Mei master in France. Super big guy (like 6'6") but moves so fast and is explosive as all get out. Has also done a lot to make classic Pak Mei more accessible
I appreciate bak mei very much for their speed training. Its movement as shown in 8:44 captures richness of techniques and skills that can be used in a fight. It's not just the speed and power, it's the mentality in this system. Better than anything wing chun has to offer, even though they are in separate leagues of their own when it comes to kung fu styles.
@@inside_fighting Actually I respect any system that has the potential to become a legit fighting force, and it does; you too saw that potential as you said. The overwhelming multiple strikes is a good (refreshing) strategy as long as those strikes are effective. And they condition them to be. A combat sport practitioner getting hit unexpectedly in a fight (not knowing he is attacking an advanced practitioner) with one of those strikes to the neck or eyes or nose or or jaw or forehead, will not know what to do next because he will not be anle to think straight. Those are not the usual fancy moves lacking intent and they are not done with a glove, so other than their power, it will get bloody and this is very beneficial for survival. Each one of those strikes is from damaging to deadly when done properly. It all comes down to who lays the first effective strike and this is up to the fighters. I've researched this style in the past, but I didn't find how their defense is trained, blocking etc., that is, the method for training blocks, covering etc. That would add another perspective for clarity in regards to the system. Having said that, what I don't like is the delay that bak mei and wing chun have, delay in self-defense development. They have great tools, but their training keeps the potential of the system from being learned fast and being useful fast. That is my main concern. Martial and art cannot be contradicting, nor opposing eachother. Baghua chang as well has great potential, especially if added to an advanced practitioner of another martial art. As strategy, all that circular movement and footwork it has can be very useful in a fight, if you can't escape, but again, the system is held back because they do not know how to develop it to become martial/combative. The problem of these systems, is their method of training, not the moves. I know I keep saying it, but this is deep knowledge to me.
It is probably worth noting that you have included videos from two very different lines of this style. It would be like showing videos of a goju ryu player and a kyokushin player and trying to draw a conclusion about what the style is about… not fruitless but not accurate either. That being said, this is a strong analysis of some of the trends of southern Boxing styles.
Dude I'm really enjoying this channel--like 5 videos in. Just wanted to say thx. Ive done Kenpo as a kid, then lots of JKD. I became rather obsessed with trapping, but like Bruce later became a little disillusioned. However, the little Silat and Filipino stuff I've tried (and my JKD instructors were also experts in such) the more I like it--especially simple gunting. My go-to argument for such is that if you can parry a jab, why not parry it into your elbow? Ouchy for him; covers one side of your head with your whole non-parrying arm. Anyway, my thanks again
Kenpo to me is the evolution of trapping, where you use the same types of hand lotions for attacking instead of deflecting. Trapping to me, as a kenpo guy, is absolutely crucial, but you don't just stay in trapping range, you trap to move into close range and then attack. Blending kenpo with JKD/wing chun/boxing makes it 10x better.
I have a little bit of understanding here...like, my Kenpo instructors etc are all Dog Brothers full-contact, let's put it to the test kind of people. @@dx5soundlabs939
"Kenpo to me is the evolution of trapping" I want you to elaborate, b/c I started out Kenpo, moved to KJD, championed then lost some enthusiasm for trapping....help me out here friend! @@dx5soundlabs939
First thing I thought "oh, mcdojo black belt analysis" but no, you are legit and yes, I was once critical looking at the little old Chinese men doing forms, puffing cigarettes who looked like they would topple across a parking lot and fall if they traveled too far. Then I got hit by one of them. Then I got driven to the ground by one of them. My first teacher when I was 14 was a tough guy his assistant was a golden gloves boxer Chattanooga TN. They studied with Dr. Wong pak mai who was a foot shorter, frail. Dr. Wong whipped TN farm plough boys who occasionally sprawled in bar fights. It took me 40 years of training to find internal tai chi, hsing yi. yi chuan but once I did, there was nothing else that compared, not even mma. As long as I was looking for something tougher, harder more effective, all I found were mostly mcdojo training but when I softened and that included my heart, amazing teachers began to manifest. Good luck on the journey finding a Sifu who has real Internal. Rare but they are out there. Adam Mizner is one of them. He isn't quite to the level of my Sifu but he is getting there as of 2024 and he is quite young to be at the level he is.
I like your channel. During the Covid lockdowns I did some private lessons over zoom with the huge guy. What you may have missed is that this style is indeed deadly because the strikes are done with single knuckle punches, half fist smd spear hand strikes to the most vulnerable targets. This requires extreme and very painful conditioning of the hands fingers etc and is extremely arduous. The huge guy is an absolute killer. One of the videos you posted shows him accidentally breaking one of the arms of a wooden dummy which are made out of extremely dense and string wood like teak. He works as a bouncer snd told me he sometimes had to use his bak mei against multiple attackers armed with weapons. His is about six five or six, ripped and extremely strong. I am a king time wing chum practitioner snd agree with most of what you say about the art. However while I whole heartedly agree that the great majority of practitioners can’t use their complex motions in a real fight this is not true if you are really really good at it. If you have never seen them watch the videos of emin Boztepe, or his student griesel . Also check out the videos of Sapir tal a southern praying mantis master. Southern mantis and bake mei are sister arts and very similar arts
These are more valuable than state secrets I'm sharing here. Comparing styles and eliminating what appears to be useless. Take the style that's the most criticized style of all...... Yes you guessed right, AIKIDO. as I said in another comment one thing practitioners should remember is that martial arts is a spiritual practice. The founder of aikido with all its seemingly useless grippings and throwings....... Murihei yeshiva the founder developed such heightened awareness that he saw a red flash with his spiritual eye of the direction in which his opponent would strike next and then the actual strike followed, but by then morihei wouldn't be standing on that same spot any more. In this way he exhausted a challenger once with a real sword when morihei with his hands behind his back signed every strike from his challenger and no one knew his secret. But his secret is incorporated in his developed style's practice. All one should do is shut up and practice, stop looking for glammer, drop the ego and practice more and Soon youl have the same ability.
I trained with one of Sifu Simon Lui"s (the old man) students and they are legit. Probaly the hardest hitting arts there is. Also 7 star Praying Mantis is the deadliest art. . and yes the 5 STEP PUNCH is a real thing.
Hey saw a couple of your videos. I subbed. I do kickboxing and kung Fu. And so I have experience some really wack stuff in kung fu and some stuff that completely changed my mind about kung fu and made me want to practice it. I think your views are mega respectable.
I completely identify with training on streetlights and embarassing friends and relatives. Your honesty really comes through in this vid. Your humor makes you credible. Much love broski.
One thing they do well, is attack the lead hand . Will probably work against a brawler. But a boxer? Meh, he will just dip his hand. But there are a lot of cool little inside hand/leg attacks happening in close though. I rank it above WC all day long.
This video is primarily Futshan Pak Mei which was used in the game. There are other branches which are essentially different Arts that are not really very closely related. Lots of arguments online about the most authentic version etc but you can't really talk about them all together as they are somewhat separate.
That's Lui Long Chun bka Simon Sigung in at the beginning of the video and just some insight for the inquired minds out there the Fat San/Foshan Branch style is a Combination of Choy Li Fut with Pak Mei hand sets and body structure that were added on
I enjoy your insight and focus on practical self defense. I’ve been involved with various Chinese boxing styles for over 35 years and added bjj & eskrima 15 years ago for many of the reasons you mentioned. Keep up the good work!!
Personal Opinion, The french guy is doing a bak mei hybrid. It's not full actual Bak Mei. Its missing Hakka aspects and fundamentals. The old guy IS doing real bak mei and Hakka martial arts. Should have kept the video on actual bak mei. Yes I'm aware of the french guys lineage. its diluted. Theres a reason why the old guy reminded him of Kun Tao and Serak players. Because of the hakka influence.
I've learned that people generally don't understand internal power is generally the people who have a hard time with relaxation and fluidity. Internal power traverse trough the muscles but are not generated in the muscles, tendons and fascia are the responsible for the power starting. I can't elaborate more is something that is easy to understand when you feel but hard to put in words.
"climbing the ladder" In southern chinese martial arts a similar concept would be "crossing the bridge" (at least in Wing Chun/Hung Gar-like styles). Bak Mei is said to be a response to that in that it is "breaking the bridge" because a lot of their parries/punches are about damaging the opponents arms as you move forward rather than just blocking them. At least that what I remember from the 1 year I took Bak Mei... that and the "phoenix" fist, which is just you making a fist with the index knuckle sticking out (so basically dirty high-schooler street fighting)
Bak Mei, Wing Chun, Southern Mantis, and others are all related because they are Southern Chinese Hakka styles, so it makes sense that you would think it looks like Wing Chun. Some say Wing Chun is what happened when a Cantonese community learned a Hakka art.
Lam Hung Pak Mei practitioner; the "old guy" is my Sigung. So yeah... don't get too caught up in the "creation mythology". Look at the the 4 Energies and Baat Fa, which leads to Luk Ging. Of course the forms don't make sense to someone whom doesn't know what they're looking at. It's that penetrating power you're refering to. That's why many shots are to the body, xyphoid process, and yes, Bil ji to the eyes, and in our lineage, the throat especially. It's a difficult art, and not one I'd recommend for beginners; we're training for short-power, a specific skill-set/principle. Thanks for looking into our art! Ng Wu Sei Hoi. 🙏 Note: in our lineage, wooden dummy (mook jong) is NOT a traditional part of Pak Mei training.
I have over 10 years with Pak Mei and I think Ilon's commentary on these videos is fair and accurate. That said, not all schools/lineage branches train the same way. In my opinion Pak Mei is not ideal for beginners. It typically takes years to develop the luk ging (six connections / whole body energy ), and that is just the beginning of the art. The highest value in Pak Mei is not in the forms, nor the external techniques.
Most people really never fight, so having a long healthy life is more important for most people. If you intend to have a career where you have to defend yourself, martial arts still insist you build a strong foundation and then do the combat stuff. Why kill yourself fighting when you are just seven or nine years old. Why not develop yourself athletically and learn the basic techniques and add in the real sparring later when your body is strong enough to take the punishment and without harming your young growing body. That is probably why we have sports in the first place. If you decide to choose to be a police officer or soldier, your body is strong and flexible and all the moves have been installed to begin real sparring, but if you are going to be a CPA, why kill yourself sparring.
I never heard of this style before. I think you have hit on something with the internal forces. The relaxation of the body which allows a better reflex speed. The breathing which together with the hip movement and body aliment spring loads huge power in the strikes. It's great that you mention about Systema. A lot of effective martial arts contain similar fundamentals. Bruce Lee's one inch punch is the perfect example of this type of power. I remember the guy he hit in The Long Beach Championships said like you he was bruised and sore for a week after and he had a pad in front of his chest. I remember the interview with Bruce when asked the difference between Karate and Kung Fu. He answered, " when they hit in Karate it goes whack! and hurts on the outside. When you hit in Kung Fu it's like a ball and chain and it goes wang! and it hurts you on the inside ". Sounds familiar? Boxers also talk about, body alignment, reflex speed ( relaxed body ) and breathing. That's why when you see a boxer throw a punch particularly at close quarters it doesn't look that hard yet the opponent goes down like a ton of bricks.
Good analysis. Yes its true by hitting relaxed. Hurts so much more then just regular hard punch. Which dojos dont teach anymore. I also took from dethouars From pak vic. I learned alot by being the uke. My 1st relax hit was from gm sam kouha- chinese kempo. I needed to know how the body moves & the pain of the technique. Bottom line Its really how u train in any MA Pak mei has good stuff. But like u said it may not be for everyone. Take care stay safe.
All technique’s of any style can be isolated and trained that way. Forms teach you how to move in the way of your particular style. Teaching flow and correct power application and principles. Great clip about a very unknown Kungfu style 👍🤜
It seems like you might get a better understanding of Bak Mei by talking to experienced practitioners. As martial artists, we all discuss different styles based on our own points of view gained from our experiences. But, if you're genuinely interested in why Bak Mei looks the way it does, why these practitioners seem so different, and why it seems so similar to Wing Chun, why not ask someone who knows? Or better yet, train with them for an afternoon... I don't think there's a real substitute for first-hand knowledge. Not every instructor is interested in displaying their art or school on social media. IMO, getting someone to demonstrate the phoenix eye fist or the leopard fist might put the style in clearer focus... but that's just my opinion. Also, there are different styles/lineages of Pak Mei. Some schools mostly do forms and partner drills, while others mostly spar. I remember a Bak Mei school in San Fransico that had open sparring sessions (anyone could come in and spar) on Thursday nights (I think that was Bak Mei & Lung Ying Academy), but I don't know if they're still open. Lastly, Pak Mei and Bak Mei are pronounced the same way ("Bok Mei" in Cantonese or Bai Mei in Mandarin); they are different ways of Romanizing the same Chinese Characters. (白眉). :-)
After listening to what you had to say about internalization, i agree. Although cinema and old stories would have us believe that the majority of combat sports are forms of "self defense" i think that almost all of the "old forms" of martial arts were designed from a strictly offensive perspective, meaning, that like in jeet kun do, defense is not the focus of the style. I think that is actually why jeet kun do was more about attacking and being reactive. Bruce Lee, having roots in kung-fu would have adapted this tenement, and this idea is one of his most practiced statements in both his book on his style and in the few videos of him actually teaching his philosophies. IMO if wing-chun was asserted as it is practiced and the majority of people that attempted proof of the concept were not older/elderly, the effects would be quite devastating, which is to say that truly kinetic styles of martial arts tend to dig deeper, hurt deeper and the wounds (if the technique is practiced properly) will have longer more debilitating affects (not effects). Now on the other hand strength can foster pain, but causes more topographical damage like a hammer hitting a flagstone and leaving topical damage, although if you weld a nail head to the center of the hammer and strike all of the kinetic energy from the hammer is then focused into a single point. This reduces the amount of force needed to achieve the same result and would retain that "bio-mechanical-functionality" three things that i think would help to produce this result would be a well-practiced reactive thinking, the ability to lift ones own weight easily/effortlessly and a deep understand of the forms you practice (regardless of the school of practice. Study of human movement would be of great benefit as well both of yourself and of others as a person that does construction for a living will move quite different from an office worker. A good example would be trying to put a person off balance that works in a car wash for a living as opposed to a person that works in retail.. The person that works in the car-wash will have superior foot work to the retail worker, but the retail worker will have superior hand eye coordination. Practicing something to the point of innateness has its merits even if it is not fully realized, but as far as re-activeness goes thats the point. Historical martial arts IMO were more about attacking as a form of defense, not defending and waiting to attack and i think that is where a lot of the understanding of styles like wing-chun, akido and jeet kun do come into play. I think this is the same for Bak Mei as well. Incidentally "Pei Mei" was a real person and one of 5 surviving monks of the shaolin temple, if the stories are true. Here is a wiki link (for what thats worrh), the history behind the style is actually quite intesting en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bak_Mei
Good vid challenging the average MMA fan to expand horizons You mentioned systema, have you trained with Vailiev, Ryabko, Wheeler or Secours? If not, worth a trip.
Bak Mei, White Crane, Southern Mantis, etc. All Fujian boxing, just different schools of the same basic type of boxing. They all adhere to "Float, Spit, Sink, Swallow". Forget all the chi power bullshit, these dynamics are easy to explain. "Float", means to hold your body as if you're floating in water, not too tense and not too limp. The challenge is in learning to step quickly and in whatever direction you need to this way. Like a boxer, "float like a butterfly.....". In fact, "Spit" can be exemplified in the western boxer's quick jab, with a slight lift from the legs, while "Sink" is demonstrated with the cross, where you drop your body weight into it. "Swallow" is what the boxer does when he folds his body around an incoming blow, or turns the side of his body away from the blow's trajectory. BTW, the Bak Mei boxer's posture is the same as the western boxer's, with the dan tien pulled up and the back rounded. Like the western boxer, the Bak Mei boxer develops "heavy hands" and puts great store in turning the waist. In fact, if you took bare knuckle western boxing, took away the rules and allowed eye gouges, elbows, a few sweeps and arm locks, you'd have a close approximation of Bak Mei.
"It kind of reminds me of Kill Bill" - You mean the character, Pak Mei, in the movie? Yeah, that's not a coincidence. Tarantino used that character because he's a recurring villain across many 80's kung fu movies, and the reason he's a recurring villain is that, well, the legend goes that not only did he challenge other masters to test his style in the Shaolin temple, but also, after it was burned down, he was on the 'hunt the remaining masters down' committee.
In the late 1980s, I was invited to visit a White Eyebrow class in Chinatown. At the time, I was a Golden Gloves boxer, college wrestler, and Judoka. These guys were one and all tough as nails and trained with actual contact. These older guys all move fluently. I went on to do MMA, Catch Wrestling, and JuJitsu. At 55 my entire neck is held together by titanium rods and I walk with a cane. Maybe they were right.
The other thing about kung fu is it’s a complete system , fighting breathing and healing . Most kung fu are weapons systems that are moving to empty hand with the advent of modern cities . You didn’t stop the Vikings coming over the hill with empty hand , this is modern with society having military’s and all that to protect them
"...but then he also looks like that." I see it, too. That was my fighting style in elementary school: get as many strikes in before the guy comes to his senses, because when he starts swinging, there's trouble coming.
”Hakka” style. Hakka means “Guest People”. They are called so because they are northern Chinese who - because circumstances - had to migrate down south. They were attacked the whole way through. They developed their empty hand and weapon styles, as well as the design of their caravans and villages accordingly - built circularly for easier defense. One of the most no-nonsense family of styles (Hakka Kuen, Vagabond / Wanderer Style, Bak Mei, Southern Mantis). There is extremely tough body hardening, proper breathing, ground fighting, extensive trauma medicine, bladed weapons, and dirty fighting. If you take Muay Thai Chaiya and put it together with FMA Dirty Boxing… you’ll be close to what they do BUT a little bit nastier and dirtier. Context: Bak Mei, specifically, is closely related to the Triads in Hong Kong. As well as in Canada (where they actually founded a new triad group and protected their people from harassment). The main guy out there, in Toronto, only became known by accident when a local was beating a Chinese man in the street, and he ran over and uppercut the guy and then dragged him across the hood of a car by his collar before ground-and-pounding him. The whole White Eyebrowed Monk betraying Shaolin story is a throw-off…. They were simply gangsters thassit lol no relation to Shaolin Temple AT ALL 😂 The two French guys lineage in this video is a hybrid style, I think of Bak Mei and Choy Li Fut. It is not very representative of MOST Bak Mei. It has more of a “Shaolin” flavor to it and a bigger more wide open stance. The “hand waving” is basically just like Floyd Mayweather’s handspeed drills. That’s it. The demo videos are just promotional non-sense. The older guy with the bald spot, he had a rough life, he ain’t just dancing. That’s all I’ll say. His lineage includes a Military Set, as well as a Lady Set (the ladies at the triad opium dens had their own tactics much like alot of the blade work in Eskrima/Kali comes from the womens hand-dance) Sparring: Most of the old guys who taught Hakka systems were old gangsters. Literally. Out of Chicago, Toronto, Minnesota. They wouldn’t have you spar like regular people, they’d take you to a bar, start a fight, and then leave you there to “handle” the situation with the guy 😅 Or, they would arrange with another teacher to take you to a school of fighters, lock you inside with a couple guys while they leave for tea, and you fight for your life lol. The 90s were different times 😅😅😅😅 The day my friend got his “black belt” (there really aren’t belts in hakka style), his teacher woke him from his sleep by attacking him with a knife - it was rusty, and dull but still - aaaand he pretty much just had to try and survive 😅 Another guy I know of out of Hawaii, he was a merchant seaman, he would travel to different places.. goto a local bar, start a fight… and whatever didn’t have a 100% success rate, he would remove the technique completely. Guy had a small notebook with notes from each encounter. The person who taught him was a bodyguard on the gambling boats. So… yeah…. As far as Modern Sparring… they need to modernize LOL or as an elder guy told me, “Just do Sanda. Everything else will fit in naturally.”
Your discussion on internal styles reminded me of erle montaigue system of taiji amd bagua, i think he calls it fa jing chuan or something. Ive only seen it in videos and as with any of these internal styes highly skeptical about its efficacy, so I’d like to see your opinion about it. His son has lots of videos about the “dim mak” pressure points which is what initially got me interested. For me i had only almost completely written off the style for its use of the term, but when i saw that the “pressure points” they were referring to were less esoteric and more stuff you would already see in other martial arts like the liver, solar plexus, kidney, neck, etc I got more intrigued and curious if they actually had something of value. I’d love to hear your opinion on it.
don't take anything earl Montague says seriously, he's a bullshit artist. fajing is very real, but it's not anything like what he describes. a good translation of fajing would be explosive force. Baji-Quan, taiji Quan and xingyi wuan all make use of it to varying degrees. it's extremely useful if you can get the hang of it.
Systema is about using relaxed momentum against tense structure. The whipping motion is effective in training but vs an actual assailant, who wants to damage you post haste, isn't necessarily effective.
From my experience chambering has a similar to how the rear arm is removed from the strike zone in Fencing. In traditional styles that are weapons centered you rely on your armor usually a chest protector & helmet to deal with the defense. The arms generally being unprotected is retracted, so they don't become the target.
It really takes having met an "Uncle Bill" to really understand how a well developed internal striking style actually works. I have the painful pleasure of having met and trained with several.
FYI Kuntao is a Chinese dialect meaning martial art, the term is widely used in S.E. Asian countries that were trading with Ming China especially Brunei where bird nest was sought after to present time. Now you are talking about simple motor skills and fajin expressed in forms.
Hey. I don't know if he'll see this but if he gets a chance check out Fu Jow Pai. Specifically Tak Wah Eng. He's who pretty much put it into the main stream in the 80s. I used to be a king fu guy and Id be interested in him checking them out.
One fact that I think many forget when they critique classic martial arts is that those arts have been effectively been used in combat for many years and worked. The idea that they don't work is rather silly. But that doesn't mean that they will be optimal in MMA rules or that they will be easy to learn with modern training methods. There is also a clear risk that critical knowledge have been lost to time. A lot of old martial arts is also practiced without practical applications and that obviously leads to worse results, but that is not the martial arts fault, it's the current practitioners doing the training wrong. The comparison with Wing Chun makes sense as the official history is that it was a female martial artist that was taught at the Shaolin temple and adapted the style to her smaller frame while Bak Mei would have been a man and would exploit his larger reach more when striking. Those powerful strikes by the guy towards the end wouldn't have been as useful for a woman. They would also have focused on techniques suitable to themself when training.
Thank you for sharing this video. I lived in San Francisco from 2010 to 2015 and I lived on a place about 4 blocks from a martial arts school called Dragon House that taught MMA, but they were known for also teaching traditional bakmei kung fu. Unfortunately i was going to college at the time, so I couldn't afford to take classes, however I did go in one day for an introduction class and found out that they did bare knuckle sparring. They started me up with the initial form of bak mei and explained some of their body mechanics, conditioning of the hands and knuckles, etc. FYI, I didn't spar, obviously because it was my first day and they were just showing me around. Currently I believe they lean more towards the MMA side of things (although i could be wrong), in fact the owner wears many hats, from being a teacher to being a fight promoter. He is the organizer of an mma event in the bay area called Zhong Luo's Dragon House. Overall i believe they don't teach bakmei as a sport, because its nature is not suited for the sport of MMA, but rather more of a self defense martial art. Either way it thought it was worth checking out as it is one of the few schools of traditional chinese martial arts that still practices sparring in the bay area.
Appreciate you sharing your experience with TCMA. People tend to see things at face value so coming from somone who fights and isn't interested in bullshitting helps to give credit to the arts. A lot of the discredit also comes from these no touch masters. I think another issue about TCMA is that although they may be technically sound can the practitioner use them under pressure. Do they have a combative mindset?
a lot of the problem is in the training. it's not just the lack of sparring, it's also the lack of good basics. a lot of time is spent on fancy counters that get used once in a blue moon, almost no time is spent on using basic strikes and footwork and setups usually aren't even mentioned. this isn't conjecture by the way, this is having had 4 teachers over the past 13 years and really only getting meaningful explanations from 1 of them.
I had a similar experience with a Tai Chi guy. We got talking about the Systema punch and he said he had an idea what they were doing and he back-fisted me on my chest. It didn't even look like a hard punch but I felt the power of the strike all through my body right down to my heels. I literally felt like a spike getting hit by a hammer and driven into the ground. It was very cool and very strange.
This is due to the whip action of the punches. and easily done with a back fist. Also why the Pak Mei guys seem like they are flailing arms but they are actually whipping their fists. they can't actually hit a training partner with those punches that's why the sparing and demonstrations look different its not full force they are pulling punches by not whipping. The punch snaps or cracks the whip 1 inch below the surface of the target. This is the real principle of the 1 inch punch that nobody seems to understand or talk about. Try striking with wrist weights that are just slightly loose and you will see what I mean. With the added mass the whip action becomes more apparent. also the fist only closes at the end of the "whip crack" punch concentrating the mass on impact and helping the whip action happen. if you throw your jab and straight punches this way you will hit with greater force. its harder to do with any hook or cross. if you do this the tendons in your arms act like rubber bands and the stored energy will rebound and withdrawing your hand is half done for you if you don't hit anything of course. This is done by relaxing completely right after the crack. It takes practice to get the whipping action right and can be done with fingers too bui jee. And is probably why Pak Mei is known to be deadly with supposed dim mak or death touch techniques when in reality they are just causing internal bleeding. if you've ever been whipped with a towel and bled or had a blood blister you will know the principle I speak of. This probably inspired the eyeball snatch and death of Bill in Tarantino's Kill Bill movies. Hit just right with the right technique an artery or organ can be ruptured causing someone to bleed out into their own body. Bruce Lee was famous for his whipping back fist and punching speed with arm whip recoil.
I get the concept and my friends and I have injured each other trying this out. But it's not martial arts or self defence because it doesn't work in any real situation.
@@peetiegonzalez1845 a striking mechanic with works or doesn't work, if it lets you hit hard in training it lets you hit hard in a fight. the problem is that having good body mechanics won't by itself make you a competent fighter. that requires and understanding not only of body mechanics, but also range, timing, setup and a bunch of other things most classes on internal martial arts don't really cover. it also requires actually putting your understanding of all of those things into practice against a resisting opponent, which most classes also don't do.
@@yamiyomizuki Totally agree. But the weirdly devastating force of a systema "punch" is difficult to comprehend. I don't think it would ever be possible to land a blow like that in real combat, but as I said... my friends and I have injured each other just trying to practice it, when we thought it was relatively harmless.
The Chinese call it dead hands.
Bak Mei is a "Hakka" style. It uses specific "Hard internal" mechanics. These fighting styles are built for skinny alleyways where you are forced to hold your ground and fight head on like this.
Also, the Hakka arts were an influence on the Indonesian arts.
That's why it kind of looks like Penchak Silat 😮
Wing Chun guy here
The hard internal mechanics is called short power. They are definitely experts at short power because besides going forward like the Wing Chun punch, they can aim their short power horizontally vertically or diagonally.
Without short power, even you know the pak mei movements it won't be as effective
There is value in forms, beyond health. Repeating the same movements over and over makes you more in tune with the mechanics of the movement, it teaches you to put all aspect of your being behind the movement which makes it crazy powerful.
Now... You still need drilling, sparring and fighting to be able to do it consistently against live opponents.
I agree.. well put
...your well trained technique becomes your body's natural reflex; a non fighter will not understand this.
@@inside_fighting Now that you have done this video, I invite you to do one for its Hakka sister style, Lung Ying Kuen. Kinda reminded me of the Peek-a-boo style of boxing, in which forward pressure and leaning are emphasized, which is a quite a coincidence, given that you just done one about that one too.
It'd be apt for someone like you to explore the intricacies of those Hakka arts, given their internal but hard approach. The Basket-case structure, the high stance, with the belly sucked up inside, chest concaved, shoulders squared. Minimum size frame. I'm telling you, even amongst their own practitioners, hybritizing between Muay Thai and their arts seem quite logical?
Like, I realize that these arts still need full-contact-sparring and cross-training (with outside arts, this time), but you have the openness of the mind when delving into traditional arts, having practiced modern ones as well, and that's rare.
Oh for sure, one shouldn't dismiss "forms & kata's so easily, There was a well respected kung fu stylist back in the day who was also a PKA kickboxing champion - Paul Vizzio , who's Sifu happened to be the same Wai Hong of the Fu Jow Pai/ Tiger claw style. I can go on about my Senpai's in Kyokushin/ Seido who fought in kickboxing matches and became champions. Traditional kata can help with body mechanics, economy in your motion and just 'good form' period.
practicing that same move in every delivery imaginable, while moving in every direction, while imagining an opponent is being blocked/thrown/locked/struck will always reveal new things to any practioner
I’m 53 years old and I trained in combat sports until I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia at the age of 30. I thought it was the end of my training because I could no longer do high impact exercises and heavy sparring. I was depressed and feeling suicidal. Then I pulled myself up and started practicing again without the heavy sparring. Keeping myself sharp by using low impact techniques with slow and deliberate training helped me preserve what I had learned. I spar lightly and I always let my partner know about my medical condition so they go easy on me. Body in motion stays in motion. Body at rest stays at rest. I learn a lot from your channel. Thank you for sharing.
Bak Mei literally means white eyebrow the elder Master was said to be one of 5 survivors from shaolin Temple when it was destroyed by the Qing Dynasty. Legend says he betrayed the shaolin temple to save his students from being killed during the destruction and was later forced to train the emperors soldiers in a second destruction of shaolin after rebuilding. His real name was shrouded in mystery supposedly he never told anyone after shaolin's destruction to protect his family and due to his white eyebrows they literally called him that. The character from Kill Bill is indeed inspired by this legendary master. Interestingly Ng Mui was also one of the 5 legendary elders from shaolin that survived. She was the originator of Wing Chun and the style was named after her student Yim Wing Chun both women who needed a stickier style to defeat men with more power. at very close range it is difficult to generate striking power and has a more "borrow force" approach. Both Bak Mei and Wing Chun have a common origin at Shaolin Temple hence their similarities but also their differences can be attributed to the strengths and weaknesses of who developed the style and how well the techniques have been passed down through time(think of the game telephone) the style is changed and reinterpreted by each master over the millennia but many of the core principals and movements remain the same. There are 8 lineages of Wing Chun that trace to Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun, the Ip Man lineage being one of them. I am not sure how many lineages are in Bak Mei and the similarities are rooted in the original Shaolin Temple masters including the Mook Yan Jong literally "wooden man post" now referred to as Wing Chun dummy or wooden dummy forms. The dummy is not for conditioning or toughening arms but to learn proper footwork shifting/pivoting hips to generate torque and getting off line and attacking the center while sticking close to the body and arms for trapping and neutralizing power. Most of the strikes are palm or chopping blade hand strikes. it's not really meant to be hit with fists with any force. that's what we use wall bags for. some people put a pad on the dummy to practice chain punches but it isn't traditionally used for that it's a modern adaptation to training. The Mook Ya Jong is a body positioning and footwork movement training aid primarily. Also note how the arms are cut off at the elbows this is so the trapping techniques occur on the upper arms of an opponent and your arms have more leverage with body torque in close range by "fixing" your elbow to your body. You have more leverage on a large mass the closer it is to you. Think of someone swinging a bat or a hook punch, if you are at the tip of the bat swing you are toast but if you move in at the handle the force of the swing is less and jammed up too.
Wow, well said..
Which one? The northern temple that we know for a fact exists or is this one of the legends surrounding the mythical Southern shaolin temple? Honestly curious i'm not familiar with the legend of bak mei
Pak Mei is also associated with the Hakka people.
@@gnos1s171 do some research. The Qing dynasty is ancient and is the basis of the modern word China. Qing, King or Ching. Some of it is legend and not written facts because it embarrassed the emperors and it was forbidden and practiced in secret. Even under Mao the martial arts were frowned upon until recent modern history. Even the communistic PRC tried to burry martial arts until they realized it's utility and cultural value in the 20th century I think Bruce lee and movies had a lot to do with the awakening. Modern Shaolin and Wu Shu is but a fraction of the martial arts of ancient times when Shaolin thrived, most of the masters and disciples were killed. leaven only a few remote temples in the Qing conquest. The lineages of Bak Mei and Wing Chun and all other southern style Kuen are living proof these Masters did in fact pass their art to students in secret and for centuries keeping the arts alive during oppression. What knowledge that has been lost is legend and speculation. What knowledge that has been preserved can be cross referenced in the similarities among and between the various martial arts styles from China and Japan. Yes I said Japan because Japanese and Koreans and all Asians besides India descend from Chinese ancestors so do their martial arts. and there are A LOT of them but they all have core similarities that trace to the Ancient Buddhist Shaolin Temples of which there were many and varied forms of the religion and martial arts. some focusing more on meditation and spiritualism like Tai Chi Chuan forms. Think of the many different sects of Christianity. There were many sects of Shaolin Buddhism with hundreds of martial and spiritual practices.. I have ancestry in China and Foshan my mom is from Hong Kong. I have been to China multiple times and I study Various martial arts.
@@WholeCosmos Hey I never said there was anything wrong with the kung fu itself, I'm a baihequan (fujian white crane kung fu) practitioner which is a style that heavily influenced and many consider the origin of both karate and wing chun, I have a huge respect for these styles, the problem is, while there's no direct proof the temple existed, only legends and folklore, on top of that, in fujian province there's already multiple different temples in the that all claim to be the original southern shaolin temple, and also at the main shaolin temple in the North of China in henan province the style they teach in the temple I will agree is watered down however, and the villages around it in songshan like cui zhongwu, hu zhengsheng aka shaolin xinyiba on youtube, seem to have preserved a lot of the practicality check out a guy on youtube called shaolin yuzhai and his videos where he shows forms and applications
Bai-Mei is another name for this style of kung fu. The short documentary about it and it explains how it should be applied. The relaxation that Eli talks is called Song Zhong or Heavy relaxation that internal CMAs (Chinese martial arts) do.
I truly enjoy that Eli analyzes and gives respectful comments on theses traditional styles. Hope he checks out Bajiquan (Bah-Jee-Chwan), which is a heavy striking and body check style of TCMA
Actually I also asked him to review Bajiquan in a comment earlier this week! Come on, let's build up the popular demand for it!
Really would like Bajichuan around me but for CMA it’s slim slim slim pickin’s. (Detroit, we box & we MMA a little) Have thought of moving to Chicago or even farther to PacNorthWest just for something like that (and did I mention I live in f*ing Detroit)
@@_Pauper_ there's good online classes for Baji-Quan. obviously you aren't really going to learn to fight from that, but you can learn the mechanics, and for Baji-Quan that's a pretty big step.
@@_Pauper_ I'm in the Chicago area, and I don't think there is any Baji around here. There's some good Chinese style classes, but as far as I can tell, the Japanese styles are more common. But remember, it's the singer, not the song. Finding a good teacher is more important than finding a certain style.
Yes! Bajiquan video, please!
I'm biased, if you train Karate hardcore, you can be at a Muay Thai level of fighting without drastic changes IN MY OPINION. Part of this is seeing Karate in MMA being used.
At the same time you can do the kata and bunkai as you age. I'm 40. I cannot do Muay Thai like I could at 20. But I can still do Karate and it doesn't feel like my body is falling apart the next day.
Jesse the karate expert here on you tube did a episode on it the results would shock u
My favorite difference with Wing Chun is… WC like most styles mostly trains for “best case scenario.” In terms of having perfect position, structure, etc. Every Hakka style often trains scenarios with your beginning position being, “you’re already in trouble. How do you recover?” You’ve already failed, your balance is off already, the other guy already has control of you, etc… it’s not always perfect
Hakka style is not Wing Chun’s baby, it’s the other way around. Wing Chun is a sub-set of skills that were only meant to be taught to people who were already proficient fighters. Everyone would tell you this in the 80s. But, as time went on especially post-Ip Man Movie people started running with the line that Wing Chun is a “complete system.” NAH. It was previously understood pretty universally that Wing Chun is not even meant to be a complete system. It’s a specific skillset. It would be like trying to teach Newaza as an entire complete self defense system…. Oh… wait…..
White Eyebrow was a very hot rival of Wing Chun in Hong Kong. Wing Chun “specialty” is sticking. Bak Mei speciality is “wiping off” (not being stuck to). It is a direct counter to Wing Chun, and 5x more vicious.
Wing Chun is much more associated with high society. Passed among rich families. Ip man’s family was wealth. Yuen Kay San’s family own a fireworks/explosives factory - they picked up Wing Chun from a Constable (like a police chief).
Hakka style is much more survivalist mentality. There are even tactics for throwing powder in the eyes or loose coins. Hidden knives. Using an opium pipe as a weapon.
The Hakka People are also the source of Most of the big uprisings and rebellions down south. Eventually they joined with the Qing against outsiders like The French. All of that to say… the mentality is way Way WAY different than Wing Chun, as is the level of pedigree.
There is a video, if you can find it, of an elder Hakka Mantis guy named Ng Si Kay. He is inside of a Muay Thai gym. The man is in his 70s atleast. To show the level of conditioning he stands there and lets them leg kick him repeatedly. Hard. Both sides at the same time. That’s how those guys train. You train by getting HIT, HARD, every class. But also learning HOW to take a hit. It’s similar to your boxing training, getting punched while you do pull ups or getting hit with the medicine ball. But, it’s the entire body. Even if your back and your neck, and even retracting your balls if a guy tries a cheap shot. They’re gottdamn hardcore… it’s like China’s Lethwei minus having a formalized league for competition - unfortunately it’s not nearly popular enough to make that sustainable
All the southern styles of kung fu look somewhat similar because they all come from similar roots in the Southern Shaolin Temple and are influenced by the Hakka (an ethnic sub-group of the Chinese from southeastern China...sort of like gypsies in Europe, lots of migrants and need to self-defend). There's a lot of emphasis on close quarters hand techniques, power generation in small spaces ("fa jin" in Chinese), strong rooting with the footing, not much kicking, parrying rather than blocking, an emphasis on ending fights fast, applications for knives, etc. These styles spread through the South China Sea region with the trading networks. You see them in the roots of Okinawan karate, Filipino martial arts, etc. A lot of it makes sense when you think about it being for use on boats and in port cities when the ground is wet or uneven, you're not wearing a lot of jackets, there are gangs controlling the harbors, lots of petty crime, and its very close quarters.
Long story short...its a close cousin of Wing Chun, not a parent.
Wait so the Hakka are like Romanis and they influenced Kung Fu southern styles?
I used to train Systema probably 15 years ago. I remember getting punched in the chest and feeling the shockwave exit from my butt cheek. I was completely dumbfounded by that punch. It buckled that leg momentarily as that punch (the only way I can describe it) exited my body. Such a bizarre sensation
I always found Shaolin Gung Fu and Wudan martial arts fascinating. Its the art and movies I guess. Their backstories are cool too. Thanks, Ilan!
You are looking at two very different methods both called Bak Mei. The crazy arm flinging as you put it is Fatsan style. The old guy and the guy on the dummy are Guangzhou CLC.
That’s my Sifu at 4;14 ,Sifu Simon Lui Long Chun.
The difference with Wing Chun is that Pak Mei uses “startle” or shock power which is trained from the get go.
Look up my Kung Fu uncle Adam Chans interview on the Martial Man channel for details on Pak Mei.
You are right about how it “feels” to be on the receiving end from this kind of training.
The French guys are Fatsan Pak Mei which are very very different technically to CLC Pak Mei (as represented by my Sifu).
Hi, Sibak!
@@saberserpent1134 Hey!!
Wing Chun guy here
We also use your Shock power but only using it in our punches. You guys definitely use it more often, whether it be horizontal, vertical or diagonally.
@@screamtheguy6425 indeed so,you guys have the one inch punch
Thanks for the vid. For why the difference in spelling and pronunciation, as someone mentioned before, it's the difference in between the two dialects, Mandarin and Cantonese. The 'Bak Mei' transliteration is Cantonese, since it's popuarized/originated from the area that mostly speak that, but if you show the same characters to someone speaking Mandarin, you'll get 'Pai Mei' instead. Hope this clears it up a bit!
Good analysis, Ilan.
Bak Mei is quite characteristically a Southern Chinese system. It has a lot in common with many Southern systems, such as Wuzuquan. Indeed, with very minor adjustments, I could convert any Bak Mei form into a Wuzuquan form (and they could do the opposite).
Because of the similarities between Bak Mei and Wuzuquan, when that chap is waving his hands around "like a psychopath", I can see exactly what he is doing and the biomechanics behind it.
Keeping the hands by the armpits, by the way, is an *exercise* to develop mobility in the scapula.
It is not a guard position.
Scapular mobility is fundamental to Southern Chinese systems.
Chinese training is supposed to be a layer cake, with forms at the bottom building structure, position movement into the student.
Unfortunately, a lot of schools these days never move past that. Or perhaps they only go as far as the next layer. So those people can only make their art "work" against compliant partners.
Fully agree with what you say about pressure testing. The top two layers should incur a risk of getting hurt, otherwise they are useless.
Sparring/Rolling
Resistant Partner Work
Compliant Partner Work
Forms (structure/position/movement)
Regarding your comparison of what you see in Bak Mei to what you have seen in Wing Chun, I would argue that Wing Chun is *supposed to* have a "loose biomechanical structure" and "step on outside lines". I practise neither of those systems but the principles are similar enough to Wuzuquan for me to be able to recognise them.
Liked and subscribed, by the way.
All the best from Madrid!
Ay,nice seeing you here. I would love for Ilan to take a look to Taizuquan
I can tell you why the hands by armpits more than head thing is common in Chinese trad MA: Small, light folk, very little rotation in a multitude of styles, and always bare knuckle means there aren't a whole bunch of full power knockout attempting punches, and even fewer with angles and setups. Winning fights was all about causing enough soft tissue trauma to get an opponent to admit defeat.
Related point: Ever been punched in the armpit? Really frikken hurts, and hard enough shots you'll be feeling for months. That's why so many trad styles have guards to stop liver shots and armpit strikes. I mean, you make a martial art prior to micro-surgery being a thing and want to drop bombs on chins, or do you want to have your public display of superiority loudly acknowledged by the hardest guy in town begging publicly for mercy after getting bruised ribs? When your choice is going for that or risking a broken hand mid-fight...
The "weird" Wing-Chun stance, Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma, as seen in most forms and Chi Sau has a clear purpose. It is to prepare your legs for the walking stance which does have a lead leg, simmilar as how a horse stance is trained in other chinese martial arts. Most of the actual footwork comes from Chum Kiu the second form and the dummy. The "weird" stance can also be used in training to isolate your hand techniques. Since you do not have a back leg you cannot compensate by redirecting force to the ground, which shows the effect of how well your deflections work. Also if you lean into your techniques you will we off balance since you do not have a front leg to catch yourself. This does NOT mean you stand this way in all drills, sparring or fighting as often is thought.
It's exactly what you explain around the 6 minute mark. "As soon as something does not look the way we expect it must be bad. And we go on youtube and watch video's and criticize people". Not all people have been to a legit Wing-Chun instructor asked them questions, exhanged techniques and then formed their opinion. Most just watch youtube video's of novices imitating Ip Man after they have seen the movies and think they know what Wing-Chun is or is not.
Pak Mei and Wing-Chun have a simmilar way to generate power through stepping and pushing off the back leg. Some styles like Xing Yi will actually stomp with their steps to exaggerate the importance of your step and punches all stopping at the same time in order to put your bodyweight into the movement. The Pak Mei forms as shown here do look like just arm movements as does Wing-chun but in application most movements will be acompanied by a step. My guess is that adding a step to every movement will take up more space and distract from learning the hand techniques. Forms are mostly a way to internalize shapes and an easy way to standardize and pass on movement, they are not the main training method for fighting of course.
Great video! I've practiced Yau Kung Mun for 20 years which is a related art to Bak Mei. We use many of the same forms. You presented a very balanced view of Bak Mei with both positives and negatives. Very well balanced!
I also like your comment that you're not a martial artist if you're not out making a fool of yourself in public with it. I've been making a fool of myself for more than 40 years! Case in point: When we had the grand opening of a new Whole Foods, the place was packed. I used Baguazhang footwork to make my way through the crowd. I actually had people applauding me.
Also, when my JKD/FMA instructor and I went to a Francis Fong seminar, we took a lunch break at Beef O'Brady's. While going over our notes, we disagreed on something we went over in the seminar, so my instructor and I stood up and went through it right there until we both remembered it.
Thanks again for a great video!
I remember while I was living in NYC there was a Chinese guy who taught this style as that narrator explained "White Eyebrow" the monk who formed it supposedly had white eyebrows 😊. I gave them credit back then because they did full contact sparring and would do a lot of hand and body conditioning. I'll give you a example, his students would compete in Wai Hongs full contact tournament in New York's China town.
There were 3 in NYC Chinatown (70-90s) but only Kwong Man Fong's Pak Mei school taught and sparred openly then and now. Feel free to visit.
@@gajet6568 Cool.
My dad taught me Pak Mei when I was a kid. I still bust out in some Pak Mei moves from time to time, lol. There's also a Pak Mei master in California named Zhong Luo, who's also a BJJ black belt and local MMA promoter. I did a deep dive into him a while back. He was showing the hand conditioning exercises in one of his videos. He said if you don't condition your fists, the techniques don't work, lol.
Also, Adam Chan/The Kung Fu Report has a series on Hakka Kung Fu, which Pak Mei is a branch of. You can learn more about the technical aspects of it there.
I like Adam Chan nice to see someone else does too.
Hello. I met Zhong Luo when he first came to the United States. I met him through a guy named Bert Rodriguez, who did Wing Chun in the Chris Chan lineage. This was before Zhong Luo got involved with BJJ. Zhong Luo learned two styles of kung fu from his father, Pak Mei and Lung Ying. Pak Mei built speed, Lung Ying built power. A strong combination. One thing that was a little different about how he blocked punches was he would twist his forearm right when he made contact so it wasn’t so much a block as a forearm punch. One thing I also know, Zhong Luo got one of his tattoos from Bert Rodriguez. I know Zhong Luo is still in San Francisco, but I lost track of Bert Rodriguez. I checked where his Wing Chun school used to be, it is now a Bikram Yoga studio.
It's really refreshing to listen to a guy on CZcams who isn't constantly criticizing traditional martial arts and their effectiveness/or lack of effectiveness. I really like your comment about the fact that even older people, when they are dedicated to their art, can continue to practice it even at an advanced age. I really appreciate your work and your analyses.
I appreciate your effort to give credit even to systems you don't understand. Your lack of familiarity with TCMA training methodology shows, when you critique the presumed difference between the guy doing moves in the air and showing applications with a partner. Of course to me, as a kung fu practitioner, it looks like he's doing the exact same thing😄 But the fact that you're willing to give the benefit of a doubt even to things that don't make sense to you, is an intellectually humble attitude that we don't get nearly enough of in the martial arts community
The art you're watching is one of 2 branches of Pak Mei, and has very little in common (mainly outside of a general spirit of close-range aggression and perhaps some distant common origin) with the more mainstream CLC Pak Mei. Emphasis on sparring will depend entirely on the instructor.
In the school I train at, you can easily spend a third of the class on sparring, with an additional separate class mostly devoted in its entirety to sparring.
We have two styles of sparring. One is full contact all-out in MMA gloves and helmet. The other is called "bridges" and is common in the Chinese arts. It's somewhat more similar to flow-rolling in BJJ. I'm guessing the people in the video you're getting tripped up on were engaging in a similar exercise. We don't wail on each other's heads when we aren't wearing gear and so yes, there is some slapping of the arms, hands, and face. Try not to lose sleep over it.
Like virtually any other art, our best, fittest, and youngest pattycake players would demolish your average practitioner, and yours would do the same to our average guy. There are only so many ways the human body can move. Martial arts are simply systems for teaching and passing down fighting concepts through the years.
It's an interesting style to say the least. But like you said they need more sparring. They prioritize offense over defense, often the two are combined. I also read a book in which they described the forces in the style as floating, sinking, swallowing and spitting. By combining them you get interesting combinations that resemble the pulling and striking you might see in karate. This video called "白眉 Pak Mei in the court" shows the ideas I mentioned: watch?v=UnsXP2v1iIs
Great video! Like other guys have noted, Bak Mei and Wing Chun are sort of kissing cousins. They look similar because they both have that Southern Shaolin background and come from the same area of south China. (Fatshan? Futshan?) That area also spawned Monk Fist Boxing, one of the branches of White Crane, and lots of Okinawa’s went there to study and avoid mandatory Japanese Army service so it’s where karate styles like Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu get their influences from. I never studied it, but it always had a good reputation among the Chinese I trained with for producing tough fighters. I know what you mean about things that don’t look biomechanically sound sometimes hitting like a sledgehammer. I was talking with a Tai Chi teacher at a tournament in Cleveland years ago. He was known for his body conditioning and would just stand there and let guys punch and kick him while he laughed at them. Anyway, we started talking about the 5 elements in TCMA and he hit me 5 times with the same motion in the same spot but each one felt completely different. I remember wood felt like it entered my gut, turned down and just thudded into my tailbone. Water felt like it went in my gut and kept spinning like a tire as it passed out my back. And I remember fire didn’t seem to penetrate, but stung like a sonofabitch.
Well said, there's not enough people acknoledging the 3 aspects of martial ARTs, self defense and combat sports, which are different with some overlapping qualities. I train all 3, sometimes I'm more into one aspect than another... but I think it's key to understand the differences and commonalities, and respect all 3 which all can benefit you :)
Man I really like your take. I'm a wing chun sifu and honestly I'm really seeing a lot of things come full circle in all aspects of fighting due to watching videos such as yours. I like to see what other guys are doing and sew if what I am doing is trash or not? Granted I do believe some things are meant to attack or defend certain style attacks and such. People hate wing chun but cannot debunk physics or science so how can it be bad? But imagine when it wc was created who were these people fighting and against what types of attacks? Beyond that just like you said besides helio who have you seen still doing at such a late age? Plus, there will always be a better fighter. I see bjj, karate, whatever guys get f upd all the time on fight nights😂
Yes for me all martial arts have value and something to improve me but it’s just a matter of what. Sometimes it’s a lot and sometimes it’s a niche aspect of how i move. It’s all very interesting.
Good video. It’s interesting to see the difference of the older master vs the current young representative. Pay particular attention to how they are connected to their legs. The younger guy lack roots and does not seem to have much power transfer (he is all upper body) where as the older guys is as stable as a tree. It’s even more visible with the student student you showed a bit of, that he only move his upper body in ways that are way too disconnected to be efficient. Speed and relaxation are essential but only effective if they are linked through the body to the ground. Otherwise they just bounce off like a tennis ball.
Great observation! Thank you for pointing that out
Most unbiased martial arts CZcamsr I've seen. You try to be objective and, knowing complete objectivity is not possible, you acknowledge your biases. I wish I could find a person like you for every topic I'm interested in.
There are different branches of Pak Mei. The Pak mei used in the game sifu is from Fatshan province. This branch uses a lot the leopard fist and it is lesser spread in Western countries.
The monk Pak Mei has broken the neck of a top Shaolin master.
Damn 😅 that’s intense
@@inside_fighting Pak Mei is known as a powerful style that uses shock power at short distance. It is practiced by Jackie Chan.
6:45 You know what that reminds me? A story from a certain practitioner who punched a guy in the stomach and later found out that the guy had broken ribs... on his back. Traditionally punches are supposed to send a wave across your body. That's why in fiction it is visualised in hitting a stack of bricks in a way that only the last one breacks. It's an exageration of that specific skill. In Okinawa it is called nenten. That's also why the second hand goes to hikite position in basic drills. It's to teach your body and your brain the principles of counter rotation. At high level you're suppsoed to create many counter rotations with your body while performing any technique which creates immense destructive power. That's how with a very short motions you can break bones and joints without making any wide motions. I love this concept because it creates a perspective of never ending way of perfecting yourself. There is no limit.
A lot of Kung Fu styles have a steep learning g curve to combat effectiveness, but hard to deal with when you achieve competence, and are definitely sustainable into your latter years.
Oh and what you described is called hydrostatic shock, many kung fu styles focus on penetration over power to cause organ damage
I like you being open minded over traditional and modern martial arts. Most of the time people just choose a side and stop thinking about the other.
I was surprised by the history part of the intro. They said that the supposed founder, Bak Mei, was one of the 5 Elders who survived the burning of the Southern Shaolin temple. Growing up doing Kenpo with a heavy Hung Gar influence, all the stuff I ever read or heard had Bak Mei being the so-called “traitor” who led the Ch’ing soldiers into the temple and helped burn it. NOT one of the 5 monks who survived the attack. Does that mean anything in 2023? No. But it is what it is.
Both are (supposedly) true. :-) Bak Mei survived the temple burning but (depending on the story) helped the Chi'ng Government hunt down and kill Ng Mui, Fong Sai Yuk, Jee Sin Sim, and Miu Hin. :-) There are many variations on the lore, but the ones that come from Wing Chun, Hung Gar, or Choy Li Fut traditions (because of Jee Sin and Ng Mui) state that Bak Mei turned on the other monks as a matter of political pragmatism (siding with the Government). Practitioners of Bak Mei, Bak Lung Ying, or Bak Fu may have heard different stories where Bak Mei was a hero or a double agent working against the Chi'ngs. Of course, it doesn't matter now. But the stories are interesting. :-)
To the gentleman who posted this video you have to remember that practicing forms is in of itself shadow boxing with a swt form of attack and defense patterns which can be built upon and to most is enjoyable to watch
After watching a Bruce Lee successor tournament to see who was the best in fighting and a short heavy set old guy plucked a mans eyeballs out and threw them out of the ring. It really opened my eyes to different martial arts. I first thought the guy was a snake style fighting but when he struck it wasn't like a snake. It was more bird like motion and very sickening to see a grown man screaming with blood running down his hands onto his shirt. Not sure if the old boy made it through or not but my master always said that the sparing between 2 true masters was as delicate as fighting with porcelain dools and not trying to brake them. I had to stop training because I have a violent temper and some of the fights I've seen were just scary . I love the videos because you're spot on on everything I've heard you try to teach.
Thanks so much! Sounds like you had some intense experiences 🙏🏼
hy,
1. as far as I know, pak/bak is derived from mandarin/cantonize. like beigine, or pekin, kung fu or gong fu.
2. since this style is way older than wing chun, so maybe wing chun chain punch reminds this style, not vice versa XD.
3. yes, kill bill is tributing this style and legendary figure, at least by name if not by choreography.
4. the awesome penetrating strikes that you mentioned, well, if you ever come to Haifa, Israel, I believe I can teach you this pretty easily.
5. my teacher, is a real master (and I hate using this word) if you look to feel extremely powerful strikes of internal nature.
Love you’re understanding of old styles. Incredibly mature. Bless ya man
You are correct on the Kill Bill tie. Gordon Liu's look for Pai Mei was based off off Bak Mei in several old kung fu films.
I appreciate that you keep things positive. Systema gets a bad rap, but I don't think any style hits harder, and they teach how to recover from hard hits. Employing the hard hits is a different issue, but I think there's things there that you're not going to find elsewhere. Most of the Kung Fu styles teach Centerline Theory; I don't see it taught elsewhere. Centerline Theory is critical to managing distance. Combat Geometry is also important to closing distance. Chain Punching has a specific place for applying it effectively. If you automatically dismiss these Martial Arts, you're missing out on what they have to teach.
A lot of kungfu systems get 'softer' as you go up in skill. And penetrative hits are trained as the goal. They look kind of 'lazy' and soft, and sometimes don't even hurt that much to take for the first 5 seconds and then it feels like a small bomb went off deep inside the target.
PS - the big guy is Johnathan Barbary, Pak Mei master in France. Super big guy (like 6'6") but moves so fast and is explosive as all get out. Has also done a lot to make classic Pak Mei more accessible
I appreciate bak mei very much for their speed training. Its movement as shown in 8:44 captures richness of techniques and skills that can be used in a fight. It's not just the speed and power, it's the mentality in this system. Better than anything wing chun has to offer, even though they are in separate leagues of their own when it comes to kung fu styles.
I’m surprised this is one of the ones you feel strongly about. I haven’t personally experienced it but lots of people seem to respect it
@@inside_fighting Actually I respect any system that has the potential to become a legit fighting force, and it does; you too saw that potential as you said. The overwhelming multiple strikes is a good (refreshing) strategy as long as those strikes are effective. And they condition them to be. A combat sport practitioner getting hit unexpectedly in a fight (not knowing he is attacking an advanced practitioner) with one of those strikes to the neck or eyes or nose or or jaw or forehead, will not know what to do next because he will not be anle to think straight. Those are not the usual fancy moves lacking intent and they are not done with a glove, so other than their power, it will get bloody and this is very beneficial for survival. Each one of those strikes is from damaging to deadly when done properly. It all comes down to who lays the first effective strike and this is up to the fighters.
I've researched this style in the past, but I didn't find how their defense is trained, blocking etc., that is, the method for training blocks, covering etc. That would add another perspective for clarity in regards to the system.
Having said that, what I don't like is the delay that bak mei and wing chun have, delay in self-defense development. They have great tools, but their training keeps the potential of the system from being learned fast and being useful fast. That is my main concern. Martial and art cannot be contradicting, nor opposing eachother.
Baghua chang as well has great potential, especially if added to an advanced practitioner of another martial art. As strategy, all that circular movement and footwork it has can be very useful in a fight, if you can't escape, but again, the system is held back because they do not know how to develop it to become martial/combative.
The problem of these systems, is their method of training, not the moves. I know I keep saying it, but this is deep knowledge to me.
It is probably worth noting that you have included videos from two very different lines of this style. It would be like showing videos of a goju ryu player and a kyokushin player and trying to draw a conclusion about what the style is about… not fruitless but not accurate either. That being said, this is a strong analysis of some of the trends of southern Boxing styles.
Dude I'm really enjoying this channel--like 5 videos in. Just wanted to say thx. Ive done Kenpo as a kid, then lots of JKD. I became rather obsessed with trapping, but like Bruce later became a little disillusioned. However, the little Silat and Filipino stuff I've tried (and my JKD instructors were also experts in such) the more I like it--especially simple gunting. My go-to argument for such is that if you can parry a jab, why not parry it into your elbow? Ouchy for him; covers one side of your head with your whole non-parrying arm. Anyway, my thanks again
Kenpo to me is the evolution of trapping, where you use the same types of hand lotions for attacking instead of deflecting. Trapping to me, as a kenpo guy, is absolutely crucial, but you don't just stay in trapping range, you trap to move into close range and then attack. Blending kenpo with JKD/wing chun/boxing makes it 10x better.
I have a little bit of understanding here...like, my Kenpo instructors etc are all Dog Brothers full-contact, let's put it to the test kind of people. @@dx5soundlabs939
hell, all of my JKD folks have been through various circuits that severely tested them
"Kenpo to me is the evolution of trapping"
I want you to elaborate, b/c I started out Kenpo, moved to KJD, championed then lost some enthusiasm for trapping....help me out here friend! @@dx5soundlabs939
First thing I thought "oh, mcdojo black belt analysis" but no, you are legit and yes, I was once critical looking at the little old Chinese men doing forms, puffing cigarettes who looked like they would topple across a parking lot and fall if they traveled too far. Then I got hit by one of them. Then I got driven to the ground by one of them. My first teacher when I was 14 was a tough guy his assistant was a golden gloves boxer Chattanooga TN. They studied with Dr. Wong pak mai who was a foot shorter, frail. Dr. Wong whipped TN farm plough boys who occasionally sprawled in bar fights. It took me 40 years of training to find internal tai chi, hsing yi. yi chuan but once I did, there was nothing else that compared, not even mma. As long as I was looking for something tougher, harder more effective, all I found were mostly mcdojo training but when I softened and that included my heart, amazing teachers began to manifest. Good luck on the journey finding a Sifu who has real Internal. Rare but they are out there. Adam Mizner is one of them. He isn't quite to the level of my Sifu but he is getting there as of 2024 and he is quite young to be at the level he is.
I like your channel. During the Covid lockdowns I did some private lessons over zoom with the huge guy. What you may have missed is that this style is indeed deadly because the strikes are done with single knuckle punches, half fist smd spear hand strikes to the most vulnerable targets. This requires extreme and very painful conditioning of the hands fingers etc and is extremely arduous. The huge guy is an absolute killer. One of the videos you posted shows him accidentally breaking one of the arms of a wooden dummy which are made out of extremely dense and string wood like teak. He works as a bouncer snd told me he sometimes had to use his bak mei against multiple attackers armed with weapons. His is about six five or six, ripped and extremely strong.
I am a king time wing chum practitioner snd agree with most of what you say about the art. However while I whole heartedly agree that the great majority of practitioners can’t use their complex motions in a real fight this is not true if you are really really good at it. If you have never seen them watch the videos of emin Boztepe, or his student griesel .
Also check out the videos of Sapir tal a southern praying mantis master. Southern mantis and bake mei are sister arts and very similar arts
These are more valuable than state secrets I'm sharing here.
Comparing styles and eliminating what appears to be useless.
Take the style that's the most criticized style of all......
Yes you guessed right, AIKIDO.
as I said in another comment one thing practitioners should remember is that martial arts is a spiritual practice.
The founder of aikido with all its seemingly useless grippings and throwings.......
Murihei yeshiva the founder developed such heightened awareness that he saw a red flash with his spiritual eye of the direction in which his opponent would strike next and then the actual strike followed, but by then morihei wouldn't be standing on that same spot any more.
In this way he exhausted a challenger once with a real sword when morihei with his hands behind his back signed every strike from his challenger and no one knew his secret.
But his secret is incorporated in his developed style's practice.
All one should do is shut up and practice, stop looking for glammer, drop the ego and practice more and Soon youl have the same ability.
I trained with one of Sifu Simon Lui"s (the old man) students and they are legit. Probaly the hardest hitting arts there is. Also 7 star Praying Mantis is the deadliest art. . and yes the 5 STEP PUNCH is a real thing.
Hey saw a couple of your videos. I subbed. I do kickboxing and kung Fu. And so I have experience some really wack stuff in kung fu and some stuff that completely changed my mind about kung fu and made me want to practice it.
I think your views are mega respectable.
Appreciate that man 🙏🏼 thank you
Bak Mei has some vicious forms with intense applications.
09:17 "Better" is completely contextual.
I completely identify with training on streetlights and embarassing friends and relatives. Your honesty really comes through in this vid. Your humor makes you credible. Much love broski.
Thanks man! I appreciate that. If it ain't fun it ain't worth it :)
One thing they do well, is attack the lead hand . Will probably work against a brawler. But a boxer? Meh, he will just dip his hand. But there are a lot of cool little inside hand/leg attacks happening in close though. I rank it above WC all day long.
Ive trained it 40 years. You did a good job for the level of detail you showed.
Thanks so much. Very honored to hear that
Another great video, man! Hey, would you please cover a style called Splashing Hands kung fu?
Sounds interesting 🤔 i will do it! Thanks so much
This video is primarily Futshan Pak Mei which was used in the game. There are other branches which are essentially different Arts that are not really very closely related. Lots of arguments online about the most authentic version etc but you can't really talk about them all together as they are somewhat separate.
Which lineage is most effective and combative?
That's Lui Long Chun bka Simon Sigung in at the beginning of the video and just some insight for the inquired minds out there the Fat San/Foshan Branch style is a Combination of Choy Li Fut with Pak Mei hand sets and body structure that were added on
I enjoy your insight and focus on practical self defense. I’ve been involved with various Chinese boxing styles for over 35 years and added bjj & eskrima 15 years ago for many of the reasons you mentioned. Keep up the good work!!
Personal Opinion, The french guy is doing a bak mei hybrid. It's not full actual Bak Mei. Its missing Hakka aspects and fundamentals. The old guy IS doing real bak mei and Hakka martial arts. Should have kept the video on actual bak mei. Yes I'm aware of the french guys lineage. its diluted. Theres a reason why the old guy reminded him of Kun Tao and Serak players. Because of the hakka influence.
As a kung-fu guy who tries everything else, I love that you didn't dismiss it out of hand
Great insight
I've learned that people generally don't understand internal power is generally the people who have a hard time with relaxation and fluidity. Internal power traverse trough the muscles but are not generated in the muscles, tendons and fascia are the responsible for the power starting. I can't elaborate more is something that is easy to understand when you feel but hard to put in words.
"climbing the ladder"
In southern chinese martial arts a similar concept would be "crossing the bridge" (at least in Wing Chun/Hung Gar-like styles). Bak Mei is said to be a response to that in that it is "breaking the bridge" because a lot of their parries/punches are about damaging the opponents arms as you move forward rather than just blocking them. At least that what I remember from the 1 year I took Bak Mei... that and the "phoenix" fist, which is just you making a fist with the index knuckle sticking out (so basically dirty high-schooler street fighting)
My dude how have I never come across you before? This is a wonderful analysis.
Bak Mei, Wing Chun, Southern Mantis, and others are all related because they are Southern Chinese Hakka styles, so it makes sense that you would think it looks like Wing Chun. Some say Wing Chun is what happened when a Cantonese community learned a Hakka art.
Lam Hung Pak Mei practitioner; the "old guy" is my Sigung. So yeah... don't get too caught up in the "creation mythology". Look at the the 4 Energies and Baat Fa, which leads to Luk Ging.
Of course the forms don't make sense to someone whom doesn't know what they're looking at. It's that penetrating power you're refering to. That's why many shots are to the body, xyphoid process, and yes, Bil ji to the eyes, and in our lineage, the throat especially.
It's a difficult art, and not one I'd recommend for beginners; we're training for short-power, a specific skill-set/principle.
Thanks for looking into our art!
Ng Wu Sei Hoi. 🙏
Note: in our lineage, wooden dummy (mook jong) is NOT a traditional part of Pak Mei training.
I have over 10 years with Pak Mei and I think Ilon's commentary on these videos is fair and accurate. That said, not all schools/lineage branches train the same way. In my opinion Pak Mei is not ideal for beginners. It typically takes years to develop the luk ging (six connections / whole body energy ), and that is just the beginning of the art. The highest value in Pak Mei is not in the forms, nor the external techniques.
@@DayneMichael can’t wait to train with you brother 🫡💪🏽
Most people really never fight, so having a long healthy life is more important for most people. If you intend to have a career where you have to defend yourself, martial arts still insist you build a strong foundation and then do the combat stuff. Why kill yourself fighting when you are just seven or nine years old. Why not develop yourself athletically and learn the basic techniques and add in the real sparring later when your body is strong enough to take the punishment and without harming your young growing body. That is probably why we have sports in the first place. If you decide to choose to be a police officer or soldier, your body is strong and flexible and all the moves have been installed to begin real sparring, but if you are going to be a CPA, why kill yourself sparring.
I never heard of this style before. I think you have hit on something with the internal forces. The relaxation of the body which allows a better reflex speed. The breathing which together with the hip movement and body aliment spring loads huge power in the strikes.
It's great that you mention about Systema. A lot of effective martial arts contain similar fundamentals.
Bruce Lee's one inch punch is the perfect example of this type of power. I remember the guy he hit in The Long Beach Championships said like you he was bruised and sore for a week after and he had a pad in front of his chest.
I remember the interview with Bruce when asked the difference between Karate and Kung Fu. He answered, " when they hit in Karate it goes whack! and hurts on the outside. When you hit in Kung Fu it's like a ball and chain and it goes wang! and it hurts you on the inside ". Sounds familiar?
Boxers also talk about, body alignment, reflex speed ( relaxed body ) and breathing. That's why when you see a boxer throw a punch particularly at close quarters it doesn't look that hard yet the opponent goes down like a ton of bricks.
Good analysis.
Yes its true by hitting relaxed. Hurts so much more then just regular hard punch. Which dojos dont teach anymore.
I also took from dethouars From pak vic.
I learned alot by being the uke.
My 1st relax hit was from gm sam kouha- chinese kempo.
I needed to know how the body moves & the pain of the technique.
Bottom line Its really how u train in any MA
Pak mei has good stuff. But like u said it may not be for everyone.
Take care stay safe.
Bak Mei is one of styles Jackie Chan studied. It's good for stunt men, trains a lot relaxation and durability.
I’m subscribing because you crack me up with that whole voice bit😂😂
All technique’s of any style can be isolated and trained that way. Forms teach you how to move in the way of your particular style. Teaching flow and correct power application and principles.
Great clip about a very unknown Kungfu style 👍🤜
It seems like you might get a better understanding of Bak Mei by talking to experienced practitioners. As martial artists, we all discuss different styles based on our own points of view gained from our experiences. But, if you're genuinely interested in why Bak Mei looks the way it does, why these practitioners seem so different, and why it seems so similar to Wing Chun, why not ask someone who knows? Or better yet, train with them for an afternoon... I don't think there's a real substitute for first-hand knowledge. Not every instructor is interested in displaying their art or school on social media. IMO, getting someone to demonstrate the phoenix eye fist or the leopard fist might put the style in clearer focus... but that's just my opinion. Also, there are different styles/lineages of Pak Mei. Some schools mostly do forms and partner drills, while others mostly spar. I remember a Bak Mei school in San Fransico that had open sparring sessions (anyone could come in and spar) on Thursday nights (I think that was Bak Mei & Lung Ying Academy), but I don't know if they're still open. Lastly, Pak Mei and Bak Mei are pronounced the same way ("Bok Mei" in Cantonese or Bai Mei in Mandarin); they are different ways of Romanizing the same Chinese Characters. (白眉). :-)
After listening to what you had to say about internalization, i agree. Although cinema and old stories would have us believe that the majority of combat sports are forms of "self defense" i think that almost all of the "old forms" of martial arts were designed from a strictly offensive perspective, meaning, that like in jeet kun do, defense is not the focus of the style. I think that is actually why jeet kun do was more about attacking and being reactive. Bruce Lee, having roots in kung-fu would have adapted this tenement, and this idea is one of his most practiced statements in both his book on his style and in the few videos of him actually teaching his philosophies. IMO if wing-chun was asserted as it is practiced and the majority of people that attempted proof of the concept were not older/elderly, the effects would be quite devastating, which is to say that truly kinetic styles of martial arts tend to dig deeper, hurt deeper and the wounds (if the technique is practiced properly) will have longer more debilitating affects (not effects). Now on the other hand strength can foster pain, but causes more topographical damage like a hammer hitting a flagstone and leaving topical damage, although if you weld a nail head to the center of the hammer and strike all of the kinetic energy from the hammer is then focused into a single point. This reduces the amount of force needed to achieve the same result and would retain that "bio-mechanical-functionality"
three things that i think would help to produce this result would be a well-practiced reactive thinking, the ability to lift ones own weight easily/effortlessly and a deep understand of the forms you practice (regardless of the school of practice.
Study of human movement would be of great benefit as well both of yourself and of others as a person that does construction for a living will move quite different from an office worker. A good example would be trying to put a person off balance that works in a car wash for a living as opposed to a person that works in retail.. The person that works in the car-wash will have superior foot work to the retail worker, but the retail worker will have superior hand eye coordination. Practicing something to the point of innateness has its merits even if it is not fully realized, but as far as re-activeness goes thats the point.
Historical martial arts IMO were more about attacking as a form of defense, not defending and waiting to attack and i think that is where a lot of the understanding of styles like wing-chun, akido and jeet kun do come into play. I think this is the same for Bak Mei as well.
Incidentally "Pei Mei" was a real person and one of 5 surviving monks of the shaolin temple, if the stories are true. Here is a wiki link (for what thats worrh), the history behind the style is actually quite intesting en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bak_Mei
Love that intro dude
🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
Pai Mei from Kill Bill awesome 👌
HHHAHAAHA Yes I agree.
Good vid challenging the average MMA fan to expand horizons
You mentioned systema, have you trained with Vailiev, Ryabko, Wheeler or Secours? If not, worth a trip.
Bak Mei, White Crane, Southern Mantis, etc. All Fujian boxing, just different schools of the same basic type of boxing. They all adhere to "Float, Spit, Sink, Swallow". Forget all the chi power bullshit, these dynamics are easy to explain. "Float", means to hold your body as if you're floating in water, not too tense and not too limp. The challenge is in learning to step quickly and in whatever direction you need to this way. Like a boxer, "float like a butterfly.....". In fact, "Spit" can be exemplified in the western boxer's quick jab, with a slight lift from the legs, while "Sink" is demonstrated with the cross, where you drop your body weight into it. "Swallow" is what the boxer does when he folds his body around an incoming blow, or turns the side of his body away from the blow's trajectory. BTW, the Bak Mei boxer's posture is the same as the western boxer's, with the dan tien pulled up and the back rounded. Like the western boxer, the Bak Mei boxer develops "heavy hands" and puts great store in turning the waist. In fact, if you took bare knuckle western boxing, took away the rules and allowed eye gouges, elbows, a few sweeps and arm locks, you'd have a close approximation of Bak Mei.
A straight jab vs this crazy movement produces a different effect.
"It kind of reminds me of Kill Bill" - You mean the character, Pak Mei, in the movie? Yeah, that's not a coincidence. Tarantino used that character because he's a recurring villain across many 80's kung fu movies, and the reason he's a recurring villain is that, well, the legend goes that not only did he challenge other masters to test his style in the Shaolin temple, but also, after it was burned down, he was on the 'hunt the remaining masters down' committee.
In the late 1980s, I was invited to visit a White Eyebrow class in Chinatown. At the time, I was a Golden Gloves boxer, college wrestler, and Judoka. These guys were one and all tough as nails and trained with actual contact.
These older guys all move fluently. I went on to do MMA, Catch Wrestling, and JuJitsu. At 55 my entire neck is held together by titanium rods and I walk with a cane.
Maybe they were right.
I believe that they also use conditioning like iron palm so that the quick strikes are much more devastating.
Yes they do a lot of conditioning techniques
The other thing about kung fu is it’s a complete system , fighting breathing and healing . Most kung fu are weapons systems that are moving to empty hand with the advent of modern cities . You didn’t stop the Vikings coming over the hill with empty hand , this is modern with society having military’s and all that to protect them
"...but then he also looks like that." I see it, too. That was my fighting style in elementary school: get as many strikes in before the guy comes to his senses, because when he starts swinging, there's trouble coming.
Looks like an interesting art. I like how they are kick light.
Surprisingly fair and unbiased, kudos! Good video!
This was an amazing video and so very well said about Internal arts. Amazing job and explanation ❤
”Hakka” style. Hakka means “Guest People”. They are called so because they are northern Chinese who - because circumstances - had to migrate down south. They were attacked the whole way through. They developed their empty hand and weapon styles, as well as the design of their caravans and villages accordingly - built circularly for easier defense.
One of the most no-nonsense family of styles (Hakka Kuen, Vagabond / Wanderer Style, Bak Mei, Southern Mantis). There is extremely tough body hardening, proper breathing, ground fighting, extensive trauma medicine, bladed weapons, and dirty fighting.
If you take Muay Thai Chaiya and put it together with FMA Dirty Boxing… you’ll be close to what they do BUT a little bit nastier and dirtier. Context: Bak Mei, specifically, is closely related to the Triads in Hong Kong. As well as in Canada (where they actually founded a new triad group and protected their people from harassment). The main guy out there, in Toronto, only became known by accident when a local was beating a Chinese man in the street, and he ran over and uppercut the guy and then dragged him across the hood of a car by his collar before ground-and-pounding him. The whole White Eyebrowed Monk betraying Shaolin story is a throw-off…. They were simply gangsters thassit lol no relation to Shaolin Temple AT ALL 😂
The two French guys lineage in this video is a hybrid style, I think of Bak Mei and Choy Li Fut. It is not very representative of MOST Bak Mei. It has more of a “Shaolin” flavor to it and a bigger more wide open stance. The “hand waving” is basically just like Floyd Mayweather’s handspeed drills. That’s it. The demo videos are just promotional non-sense.
The older guy with the bald spot, he had a rough life, he ain’t just dancing. That’s all I’ll say. His lineage includes a Military Set, as well as a Lady Set (the ladies at the triad opium dens had their own tactics much like alot of the blade work in Eskrima/Kali comes from the womens hand-dance)
Sparring: Most of the old guys who taught Hakka systems were old gangsters. Literally. Out of Chicago, Toronto, Minnesota. They wouldn’t have you spar like regular people, they’d take you to a bar, start a fight, and then leave you there to “handle” the situation with the guy 😅 Or, they would arrange with another teacher to take you to a school of fighters, lock you inside with a couple guys while they leave for tea, and you fight for your life lol. The 90s were different times 😅😅😅😅
The day my friend got his “black belt” (there really aren’t belts in hakka style), his teacher woke him from his sleep by attacking him with a knife - it was rusty, and dull but still - aaaand he pretty much just had to try and survive 😅
Another guy I know of out of Hawaii, he was a merchant seaman, he would travel to different places.. goto a local bar, start a fight… and whatever didn’t have a 100% success rate, he would remove the technique completely. Guy had a small notebook with notes from each encounter. The person who taught him was a bodyguard on the gambling boats.
So… yeah…. As far as Modern Sparring… they need to modernize LOL or as an elder guy told me, “Just do Sanda. Everything else will fit in naturally.”
Your discussion on internal styles reminded me of erle montaigue system of taiji amd bagua, i think he calls it fa jing chuan or something. Ive only seen it in videos and as with any of these internal styes highly skeptical about its efficacy, so I’d like to see your opinion about it.
His son has lots of videos about the “dim mak” pressure points which is what initially got me interested. For me i had only almost completely written off the style for its use of the term, but when i saw that the “pressure points” they were referring to were less esoteric and more stuff you would already see in other martial arts like the liver, solar plexus, kidney, neck, etc I got more intrigued and curious if they actually had something of value.
I’d love to hear your opinion on it.
don't take anything earl Montague says seriously, he's a bullshit artist. fajing is very real, but it's not anything like what he describes. a good translation of fajing would be explosive force. Baji-Quan, taiji Quan and xingyi wuan all make use of it to varying degrees. it's extremely useful if you can get the hang of it.
Systema is about using relaxed momentum against tense structure. The whipping motion is effective in training but vs an actual assailant, who wants to damage you post haste, isn't necessarily effective.
From my experience chambering has a similar to how the rear arm is removed from the strike zone in Fencing. In traditional styles that are weapons centered you rely on your armor usually a chest protector & helmet to deal with the defense. The arms generally being unprotected is retracted, so they don't become the target.
It really takes having met an "Uncle Bill" to really understand how a well developed internal striking style actually works. I have the painful pleasure of having met and trained with several.
FYI Kuntao is a Chinese dialect meaning martial art, the term is widely used in S.E. Asian countries that were trading with Ming China especially Brunei where bird nest was sought after to present time. Now you are talking about simple motor skills and fajin expressed in forms.
Hey. I don't know if he'll see this but if he gets a chance check out Fu Jow Pai. Specifically Tak Wah Eng. He's who pretty much put it into the main stream in the 80s. I used to be a king fu guy and Id be interested in him checking them out.
I will check it out! Thank you for the recommendation
One fact that I think many forget when they critique classic martial arts is that those arts have been effectively been used in combat for many years and worked. The idea that they don't work is rather silly. But that doesn't mean that they will be optimal in MMA rules or that they will be easy to learn with modern training methods. There is also a clear risk that critical knowledge have been lost to time. A lot of old martial arts is also practiced without practical applications and that obviously leads to worse results, but that is not the martial arts fault, it's the current practitioners doing the training wrong.
The comparison with Wing Chun makes sense as the official history is that it was a female martial artist that was taught at the Shaolin temple and adapted the style to her smaller frame while Bak Mei would have been a man and would exploit his larger reach more when striking. Those powerful strikes by the guy towards the end wouldn't have been as useful for a woman. They would also have focused on techniques suitable to themself when training.
Ancient Pak Mei warriors trained Iron Palm, it is the reason why Pak Mei is very dangerous.
Thank you for sharing this video. I lived in San Francisco from 2010 to 2015 and I lived on a place about 4 blocks from a martial arts school called Dragon House that taught MMA, but they were known for also teaching traditional bakmei kung fu. Unfortunately i was going to college at the time, so I couldn't afford to take classes, however I did go in one day for an introduction class and found out that they did bare knuckle sparring. They started me up with the initial form of bak mei and explained some of their body mechanics, conditioning of the hands and knuckles, etc. FYI, I didn't spar, obviously because it was my first day and they were just showing me around. Currently I believe they lean more towards the MMA side of things (although i could be wrong), in fact the owner wears many hats, from being a teacher to being a fight promoter. He is the organizer of an mma event in the bay area called Zhong Luo's Dragon House. Overall i believe they don't teach bakmei as a sport, because its nature is not suited for the sport of MMA, but rather more of a self defense martial art. Either way it thought it was worth checking out as it is one of the few schools of traditional chinese martial arts that still practices sparring in the bay area.
Appreciate you sharing your experience with TCMA. People tend to see things at face value so coming from somone who fights and isn't interested in bullshitting helps to give credit to the arts. A lot of the discredit also comes from these no touch masters. I think another issue about TCMA is that although they may be technically sound can the practitioner use them under pressure. Do they have a combative mindset?
a lot of the problem is in the training. it's not just the lack of sparring, it's also the lack of good basics. a lot of time is spent on fancy counters that get used once in a blue moon, almost no time is spent on using basic strikes and footwork and setups usually aren't even mentioned. this isn't conjecture by the way, this is having had 4 teachers over the past 13 years and really only getting meaningful explanations from 1 of them.
I think Yami nailed it. Its so teacher dependent and sometimes can become too philosophical and esoteric
@@inside_fighting getting philosophical and esoteric is fine. the problem is not also being practical and explaining the basics.
@@yamiyomizukiAgree, without the basic fundamentals one's training can't improve.
Finally someone is giving due credit to Systema
The big guy is actually in the same lineage as Benjamin Colussi. Their teachers are related. Big guy is from Canada.