You're not necessarily comparing raw vs log. You're comparing RED raw Vs ZCam log. To do an accurate raw Vs log comparison, compare RED raw Vs RED log (Prores I guess). Raw definitely gives you more than log in other areas, not so sure about dynamic range.
It's all about bit depth when it comes to dynamic range. ISO doesn't change what the camera captured it only applies or reduces gain staging in the same or a similar manner in which the camera applies the gain staging. Comparing 12, 14, 16 bit raw to 10-bit log is apples to oranges. Essentially, if your work is run-and-gun and your just taking what the world is giving, you'd be better served with raw to provide better latitude when compressing those high bit rate data files to the viewable 8-bit output we all know. However, if most of your work is in environments where you have either partial or total control of the lighting in order to reduce the dynamic range of the optical image being recorded to fit within the limited bit depth of 10 bit log, then you might find 10-bit log will be the better choice. The same principals applied back in the DV days, but unlike back then, shooters get a lot more latitude out of the box today. The only "superior" camera is the one you can get your best shots with.
Agreed. But just had to show people why they would want raw if they need it’s upsides. A lot of people will still argue or try to get technical. But I just showed how being able to shit the range within the footage is helpful when shooting uncontrolled light. I should have mentioned that as well! Thank you for the added perspective 🙏🏽🤘🏽
These videos are always fun to watch and learn from. Would love to see some more in-depth videos on your color grading process! Your final images are always gorgeous no matter what camera I see you using
Such great, honest, candid work! Really enjoy your open book insights. I wish everybody reviewing stuff out there would be as unbiased as you are. Can't afford the Komodo at this time so getting an E2 S6 in about a week. Will be eventually adding a Ninja V to at least have Prores Raw to work with for certain projects. Your channel is ALWAYS a great source of information and guidance brother!! Thanks. 🙏🏽👌🏽🎞
Glad I can help man!!!! That’ll be my next test!!! I wanna see what the deal is with prores raw and if it’s really as good as normal raw. And man the zcam e2s6 is still one of my top favorite cameras. Like they jsut get the job done. Amazing quality for an insane price
@@cammackey Thx for the reply bro! Oh wow, that would be sweet, I would love to see and hear what your conclusions will be on a Prores Raw test. Looking forward to that test for sure and thanks in advance. 🙏🏽
Great comparison man! Dynamic range makes a huge difference, but you're also comparing 10bit vs 16bit...which is 1024 shades vs 65536..huge difference. Stoked to get my hands on a Komodo. Thanks.
That "amazing RED RAW ISO shadow lift" is so noisy it's unusable, and as soon as you start denoising it with this amount of noise it will turn mushy as well. The problem is what you say is the added dynamic range in the shadows is not really there because it sits under the recoverable noise floor of the sensor. The benefits that you are explaning here do exist, just not in the Komodo, you have to buy an ARRI for what you're trying to recover. But in the end nothing on the market will reproduce the dynamic range of the human eye, so as cinematographers we have to choose scenes that are not impossible to paint with our cameras, this is the essence of the job. And this you can do with the Z Cam, C70 and Komodo as well.
Lol bro how are you going to try to deny the evidence that I literally just showed you. You can get as technical as you want.. the facts are in the footage. The footage at the end, has noise reduction, did that look mooshy to you? Most likely not. This is why I hate specs. People can argue all they want, all I know is I can get a useable image out of it for my work.
@@cammackey Look, I'm not denying your evidence, and you are right, the Komodo has more dynamic range than the Z Cam. But it comes with a huge price in the form of noise. The most important thing is if it works for you, then it's the best camera for you, but you tolerating that amount of noise is not going to be applicable for everyone. This is why when you test a camera's dynamic range you have to set a standard level of noise for the shadows, deemed "usable". This is how we know from CINE D lab tests that the C70 has 12.8 usable stops (instead of the advertised 15), the Sony A7Siii has 12.4 stops, the bmpcc6k has 11.8. And I know these are just lab tests, but I brought out these cameras to the real world on real projects and the usable range holds up. The Komodo hasn't been tested yet, but my guess is that it has closer to 14 usable stops, so above all these cameras. But if you want more that's personal preference heavy noise reduction territory, which I'm not okay with. Everyone can decide if the difference in dynamic range is worth the drawbacks of the camera of course.
@@volkom91 I mean all these cameras running 10 but log are running noise reduction. Even when you turn noise reduction off, there’s still some noise reduction being baked in. It’s been proven. So you’re saying because you have to manually run noise reduction, it’s not usable? That’s silly.
@@cammackey I agree in terms of Sony A7Siii, that footage is bad exactly because of this, it's noise reduced badly in camera. But the C70 has the DGO sensor, which is not noise reduction, and it looks fantastic in my opinion, while the bmpcc6k is raw, so again, not noise reduced in camera, only gain switched at a certain iso. Plus the bmpcc6k noise looks better than any other noise I've seen, maybe the fuji noise is on par with it, but that's an entirely different sensor technology so not really comparable. But to get back to the point, I agree, in camera noise reduction isn't better in terms of quality than noise reduction in post on RAW footage. What I'm saying is extra dynamic range under the "usable" signal to noise ratio should be treated with an asterisk.
@@volkom91 agree to disagree brother. I’m all about results, I don’t care about tech specs. Most people who try to debate my results always end up being Gereald Undone fans. He’s a source of great info, but all of that goes out the door for real world use. I only care about results, results that will help take my image to the next level. Now that I got my gear on lock, I can relax and start focusing back on what really matters haha, like my lighting and directing!!!
Dude...nice video! I’ve been watching your work on IG wondering when we’d see the Komodo review. I love that you’ve done shots in the same light color and angle for accurate side by side.
great video! I have had a zcam f6 for almost a year now and have shot a number of projects with this camera. the video shows what you can really count on in real life with these cameras. zraw is completely useless unless davinci resolve supports it. a similar situation with prores raw. of course you can import Zraw into premiere, but you won't be working with colorists in premiere. If you are shooting serious projects with a large team, it will be difficult to persuade colorists and editors to work with zraw videosuite every time in order to use zraw. therefore, comparing prores on zcam and red raw in this case is more than correct.
@@divisionoflabor3070 hi I loved this camera, but i couldn't find any solution for zraw. It was one of the reasons, why i bought RED Komodo. I think, ZCAM - is a great thing for small projects, but not for adv
I’m curious to see this same comparison but only on Komodo shot once in R3D and again in Prores to see what the 16bit vs 10 bit difference is when you remove the variable of a totally different sensor and image processing pipeline. How does the Red compare to itself when you shoot raw vs prores. If the prores is 98% as good as the raw then I think the real question is not which codec you have but which sensor and how good the readout is from the sensor. To me that is why Alexa is able to shine even in just prores. Because you’re getting that insanely rich detail with their DGO technology
Yes! Super interested in testing this as well. I know at the end of the day, pro res will bake in under and over exposed information. So at the point it comes down to if pro res has a dynamic range limit too
@@cammackey Bro all these videos are insanely educational to me. Just starting out in the world of video and ingesting as much as i can about it. You mentioned in a previous video that shooting pro-res on Komodo was kind of missing the point of the Komodo, and while I understand the differences between Red raw and prores, it would be really interesting to see how the two differ in the same camera! keep up the good work and thank you for making these!
@@_juanchamorro dude happy to hear I’m helping out!!!! And yes I’m assuming the pro res would be similar to most other high end cinema cameras thay don’t run raw. But I could be wrong, only one way to find out!!!
Man I really appreciate the video. So I have a z cam E2-S6 and I do music videos but mostly outside do to me not having lights yet. And so you suggest that I should be using raw files for filming. Just wondering how much space do they take on a c fast card
If you’re outside, I would say the ZCam is just fine! It still has insane dynamic range and super small files in H265 (almost exact performance as prores). This test is mainly for stretching the dynamic range in high contrast situations. You can see from the outside shots, the zcam skin tones recover as good as the Komodo.
Actually thought the difference might be bigger. Would be interested to see how the full frame Z-cam pits against the RED. I'm about to get the Atomos Ninja V for my Pana S1 to see how the 12bit RAW is on that. Though I know that setup wouldn't hold up to your abusive style of shooting haha global shutter and 16 bit color is pretty rad though
Yeah that’s why I’m always saying the zcam is amazing! And the c70 performs even better in the shadows. Like all of these cameras will get the job done. And I’m also interested in trying prores raw ca the Komodo! I’ll have to set that up
Good lighting matters when you’re shooting thing that you have control over. When you’re having to shoot run and gun ish and have zero control over lighting conditions.. the camera starts to matter.
He just showed you that camera does matter. It also matters with controlled lighting. Do you really think controlled lighting doesn't have shadow areas like he showcased in the extreme barn footage? All cameras don't treat shadow detail the same and that's what he proved in this video. Go shoot with the BMP4K over the Arri if it doesn't matter.
@@point5production273 all I'm saying is pixel peeking doesn't matter, if you have to lift your shadows that much, maybe you should have used some fill in the first place. Yes the camera matters, but the bulk of any look is always defined by the light. Sorry, shouldn't have said camera doesn't matter.
@@tommyinthe8ir Even with fill the image would look better on the Komodo because of how it handles low light information. You clearly don't understand light and shadow across all values.
Komodo looks like as flexible as still raw files, incredible!! Would you say it has the same capabilities as the Canon R5 still raw files? Can you get Komodo/C70 to match the R5 raw still files?
I think it’s close to photo, but not the same. Photo raw requires wayyyyy less processing power so I’m sure there’s like internal noise management and crazy ish going on.
Would be a rad test!! I’ll see if I can find one. The main thing for me is I almost bricked my pocket 4k multiple times.. the body just can’t keep up. I always need rails and shit to rig it up to which was always annoying when having to hike through the back country. The square form factor is clutch.
@@cammackey well dont be too rugged with the komodo, red is def not know for reliability as much as they try and promote it with this cam, productions still rent 3-4 at a time.
Log files can be pretty thin, but once rigged out with a ninja v you can capture prores raw in the zcam. I wonder how that would fare vs the red. Maybe another test for a slow day!
This is more of a conversation about the dynamic range capabilities of the cameras than it is about raw. I’d guess the results would be very similar if you shot this test in ProRes on the Red.
@@cammackey Then why does the thumbnail say "RAW vs. 10-bit"? And why are you constantly talking about the differences between RAW and LOG in the video?
@@cammackey but why not test z raw vs Komodo raw. I mean you have two differentials which doesn’t make for a good “vs” video. It’s like are you comparing the two cameras, or two codecs? There isn’t much good data to be gained from this. The Komodo at its highest setting is better than the z cam at its not-highest setting... great.
@@xakhuh5104 because most people don’t use ZRaw because there’s not a lot of support for it. I’m not a youtuber who makes pointless videos. I make realistic comparisons. Most people with the Komodo will be using red raw. Most people with the zcam use pro res. That’s why.
Yeah having tested c70, e2-f6 and red gemini pretty extensively, I can say zcams issues aren't with log or 10b so much as their internal processing. Only way around that processing is hdmi raw out to prores raw which signficantly increases shadow color fidelity as well as color noise. Raw does still retain a benefit in tests of my c70 vs my red gemini but it seems it may only show up in such underexposure that it's likely beyond most practical applications. Also I've had some improvements by modifying the log format the c70 records as some of the limitation comes from processing and compressing a log format that dedicates the range above middle grey to only 6 stops of DR, which unnecessarily compresses lower shadows.
@@noahyv the C70 is legit the best imagine I’ve seen come off a compressed image. Was insanely impressed with it. Bummed the camera ergonomics weren’t useful for me :(((
@@cammackey yeah I still struggle with how I'd approach handheld exactly, though I don't suppose it's really any different than the box cameras (zcam/red). I do tons of gimbal work lately so the AF and ND and low power consumption make my life so many times easier though Im a bit conflicted that now I find myself downselling clients to the c70 since the c70 is just much more convenient on set for small-crew projects. Really liking the arri709+1 LUT I've loaded on my c70, kinda looking forward to baking in good color that looks great on set more often actually since I don't always know who is doing post. Seems to even be a bit of an improvement over ipp2 which sometimes doesn't handle light sources with spikey color spectrums well.
Do you mean DGO? Even with dgo, if parts are too under exposed, it’s being baked in like that. After owning the C70, I’d say it has the same DR performance as any of these top 10 bit log cameras BUT when recovering its shadows, it’s hold more color depth! Which is the main issue!
@@cammackey yes DGO.. im considering the c70 but since it doesnt shoot Raw im starting to get cold feet on it and leaning torwards the R5 because i cant afford a Red as of yet..lol but on the flip side c70 does have good selling point just not for no 6k
As far as making money goes would much rather have no nonsense Canon DGO 10-bit log for workflow reasons. A lot of the dynamic range from the Komodo are “gravy” stops and you have to work hard to get it. Cool little camera. Competition is good.
If you’re making money in this industry than that’s not that big of a difference honestly. If someone can’t afford it then most likely they don’t have the type of clients that require it.
@@cammackey you are right,its awesome that you have the high end clients ! but,maybe for someone who's barely starting or on a budget ( my case ) a Z cam is a better option
Don't take any of this as a knock you are an amazing artist with a huge amount of talent I don't think it maters what you use it'll come out good, but I am going to be critical of a few things, please accept this as constructive and tell me what you think. First you are correct resolve does not support ZRAW, I am still shooting ZRAW it makes a huge difference and simply convert it out to a EXR or other format for now. I am under the belief that you have to compare apples to apples, this test still does not do that in that situation. The next thing at time stamp 4:10 around you explain the two shots(granted still not a raw comparison) you explain that you over exposed the RED. By doing that you giving the RED an edge in the shadows making that comparison unfair, lets say it is just a stop that is a big ordeal. To my eyes it looks like the RED was over expoused by a stop or two and the ZCAM was under exposure by a stop or two. That up to 4 stop swing makes it hard to really even compare them let alone the compression that makes under exposure worse. You talk about color detail alot as well. This should never be a surpise when comparing RAW to H.265 as the H.265 is throwing away up to 1/2 of the color information. When looking at darker under expoused aeras it will naturally go flat as darker things will return less color information. Our own eyes even behave this way, in lower light it is much harder to see color information this is true for cameras as well any compression on the color information like 4:2:0 will makee it worse. LOG is a color profile and RAW is a recording format, two completely different things. Also you note then at around 5:25, that you are not sure if the white balance was set correctly. White balance is baked in for H.265 and not for RAW, you can change this and fix this with RAW not for H.265. The literally recoreded color on the image is wrong but due to the color compression this is compounded as every 4 pixels share a chroma value. You can literally do this test and you'll see that white balance is critical for destructive codecs. White balance is important in general for creative reasons but thats subjective. 7:50 again you cite color informtion in the darks, the issue is the compression throwing away the color and dynamic range technically as well as its 10 bit. Also the green shirt, it is not color is is actual detail, due to more color information and technically more dyanmic range. Anyway, I watch all your stuff, love seeing what you do keep up the great work.
You keep referring to testing raw vs a pro res and not pro res raw.. as you’ll see in my thumbnail, that is the point man haha. In the shot where the the red was a little over exposed.. I was over exposed by 1/4 a stop.. the zcam wasn’t underexposed, it was exposed for the highlights. To your eye it may look the way you said, but from the waveforms in person it was accurate. Also I didn’t state once that this was suppose to be a fair test, also stated why I didn’t shoot ZRaw. So everything you just stated is obvious. The point of this test are for those who use the zcam on prores since zraw isnt a realistic option yet. With almost zero support, most pros I personally know will not spend the time to convert zraw to ProRes. And I personally do not care for prores raw cause I do not want to rely on an external recorder while on location shooting run and gun stuff. Also whitebalance is irrelevant in this test. Shifting the WB on 10 but footage will not kill the dynamic range performance or bring back skin tones. And obviously the color detail is being lost in the shadows on the zcam. That was the point of this test lol. So your comment is confusing cause you’re treating this test as if it was inaccurate.. yet it’s a test comparing the Komodo raw to the S6 pro res.. the two most used formats for each camera.
@@cammackey Well that makes complete sense. H.265 does suck vs any other RAW format. H.265 is really a delivery format not a capture format. However now you might be able to really setup a new challenge as now all formats support Prores 422, which is certainly far far better than H.265. The only thing you can't record is the F8 2.4:1. Brand new update really helps the camera.
@@darrenorange2982 I actually did a previous video comparing the h265 to the pro res on the zcam and the h265 holds up just had less sharpness detail but very minimal. Also.. for this test the zcam was in pro res..
Isn't there even a third variable present in this analysis ? Does not the Red cameras all use internal 16 Bit (Not the typical 12 bit used in ProRes RAW or ZRAW ?). Would this account for the deeper and clearly superior colour information we are seeing in the green leaves of the trees ?
Yup! The R3D raw is 16 bit. Tho a lot of people talk about how the red raw is still a 12 bit linear blah blah blah. All I know is that it’s able to recover a crap ton of detail and that’s all I care about lol
The prores HQ on the zcam doesn’t give you better dynamic range. It just gives you a wider color spectrum. The shadow details and color would be the same.
I was literally just watching your little phone vid about 16 vs 10 when this came on lol. Nice. I think the skin tone info shots made the most impression on me (Z-cam owner btw)
Yeah the zcam really holds up!! The C70 would of been able to hold more skin tone detail for sure. But nothing can match a RAW output. Either way, they’re all useable! This test was jsut to show how much info you can really stretch from a file
i legit dont understand how this is even a discussion? the end picture is what most people care about usually. its already a known fact that RAW > anything.
And yet, who the hell is pushing a RAW or Log image to the point where this even matters. I know I aint, and I suspect if you are, you need to work on lighting more. The issue with RAW, or 444, or 422 HQ, is that you end up filling hard drives to the point of it being ridiculous - when there really is no need, because most of us are just slapping a LUT on, adding some contrast, and that's it. I love a solid 10 bit 200mbps codec, just for that reason.
I rocked the h265 on the ZCam. Was Gucci for me. And I hate LUTS. But I do like having a lot of range and info cause my grades always look a little more polished. It never fails. And I shoot a lot of run and gun commercial work. Don’t always have an option to use lighting. Sooooo.... it matters.
Bro you sound like a boyfriend after breaking up and having a new girlfriend!! This one is better bla bla... to be fair record In zraw then transcode intro Apple pro res 4444 compare both. Not fair your comparison compare Zraw vs res raw!
@@MusicAndLifePeru I’m a working professional. I care more about realistic workflows and results. I ain’t about to use zraw and tap my specd out 16inch MacBook for a weekend to convert terabytes of footage. This is why I find this argument pointless.
@@cammackey I agree with you I’m not spending my time in transcoding for a full project. One of the cons of ZCAM using with my F6 that’s why I stick to zlog. My only review and it’s fair to give my opinion is that I would only transcode a few clips just for the purpose of the comparison of zraw vs red raw. Saying this in aware the red raw is better in many ways to zraw. Just would it be fairly to my point of view to compare both of them. All good bro agree to disagree.
Want real highlights? Want real shadows? Shoot film, end of story. We will live forever lowering highlights and pushing shadows and never get the quality people 150 years ago were already getting by using film. Let's get real shall we? 6 months from now (if not less) the Komodo will certainly be already trashed by whatever else coming soon with better highlights and shadows. Nothing is more hysterically funny to me these days than watching couple year old videos of new gear getting praised and drooled over then that now is no more than low-resale hardware imaging garbage. Ahhhhhhhh how much I love Super 8 more and more! Thanks for this video and all your videos, great photos, great content.
Film has horrible dynamic range compared to these cameras, and if you know what you're doing you can create a filmstock-like look from these files. I love film as well, but I guess it's just easier to get "the look" instantly withour all the work, that's why we romanticise it at this point.
Film has very limited dynamic range, specially depending on the stock. The reason people tend to think it has better dynamic range is because of the insanely gorgeous highlight roll off it has. And also because 150 years ago they were still using lighting to lift the base exposure to match the highlights lol
You're not necessarily comparing raw vs log. You're comparing RED raw Vs ZCam log. To do an accurate raw Vs log comparison, compare RED raw Vs RED log (Prores I guess). Raw definitely gives you more than log in other areas, not so sure about dynamic range.
I never understood what people meant with this raw/log debate. Completely different things. Raw is linear data while Log is a downstream process.
It's all about bit depth when it comes to dynamic range. ISO doesn't change what the camera captured it only applies or reduces gain staging in the same or a similar manner in which the camera applies the gain staging. Comparing 12, 14, 16 bit raw to 10-bit log is apples to oranges. Essentially, if your work is run-and-gun and your just taking what the world is giving, you'd be better served with raw to provide better latitude when compressing those high bit rate data files to the viewable 8-bit output we all know. However, if most of your work is in environments where you have either partial or total control of the lighting in order to reduce the dynamic range of the optical image being recorded to fit within the limited bit depth of 10 bit log, then you might find 10-bit log will be the better choice. The same principals applied back in the DV days, but unlike back then, shooters get a lot more latitude out of the box today. The only "superior" camera is the one you can get your best shots with.
Agreed. But just had to show people why they would want raw if they need it’s upsides. A lot of people will still argue or try to get technical. But I just showed how being able to shit the range within the footage is helpful when shooting uncontrolled light. I should have mentioned that as well! Thank you for the added perspective 🙏🏽🤘🏽
Who is saying Log is as good as Raw?
Dude. It’s never ending. Lol
These videos are always fun to watch and learn from. Would love to see some more in-depth videos on your color grading process! Your final images are always gorgeous no matter what camera I see you using
Thank you 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽 working on one rn!! Should be up in a few hours!
Such great, honest, candid work! Really enjoy your open book insights. I wish everybody reviewing stuff out there would be as unbiased as you are. Can't afford the Komodo at this time so getting an E2 S6 in about a week. Will be eventually adding a Ninja V to at least have Prores Raw to work with for certain projects. Your channel is ALWAYS a great source of information and guidance brother!! Thanks. 🙏🏽👌🏽🎞
Glad I can help man!!!! That’ll be my next test!!! I wanna see what the deal is with prores raw and if it’s really as good as normal raw. And man the zcam e2s6 is still one of my top favorite cameras. Like they jsut get the job done. Amazing quality for an insane price
@@cammackey Thx for the reply bro! Oh wow, that would be sweet, I would love to see and hear what your conclusions will be on a Prores Raw test. Looking forward to that test for sure and thanks in advance. 🙏🏽
Great comparison man! Dynamic range makes a huge difference, but you're also comparing 10bit vs 16bit...which is 1024 shades vs 65536..huge difference. Stoked to get my hands on a Komodo. Thanks.
Yup! That was the point lol. A lot of people we’re arguing that the 10bit is just as good as raw, had to show them the facts lol!
That "amazing RED RAW ISO shadow lift" is so noisy it's unusable, and as soon as you start denoising it with this amount of noise it will turn mushy as well. The problem is what you say is the added dynamic range in the shadows is not really there because it sits under the recoverable noise floor of the sensor. The benefits that you are explaning here do exist, just not in the Komodo, you have to buy an ARRI for what you're trying to recover. But in the end nothing on the market will reproduce the dynamic range of the human eye, so as cinematographers we have to choose scenes that are not impossible to paint with our cameras, this is the essence of the job. And this you can do with the Z Cam, C70 and Komodo as well.
Lol bro how are you going to try to deny the evidence that I literally just showed you. You can get as technical as you want.. the facts are in the footage. The footage at the end, has noise reduction, did that look mooshy to you? Most likely not. This is why I hate specs. People can argue all they want, all I know is I can get a useable image out of it for my work.
@@cammackey Look, I'm not denying your evidence, and you are right, the Komodo has more dynamic range than the Z Cam. But it comes with a huge price in the form of noise. The most important thing is if it works for you, then it's the best camera for you, but you tolerating that amount of noise is not going to be applicable for everyone. This is why when you test a camera's dynamic range you have to set a standard level of noise for the shadows, deemed "usable". This is how we know from CINE D lab tests that the C70 has 12.8 usable stops (instead of the advertised 15), the Sony A7Siii has 12.4 stops, the bmpcc6k has 11.8. And I know these are just lab tests, but I brought out these cameras to the real world on real projects and the usable range holds up. The Komodo hasn't been tested yet, but my guess is that it has closer to 14 usable stops, so above all these cameras. But if you want more that's personal preference heavy noise reduction territory, which I'm not okay with. Everyone can decide if the difference in dynamic range is worth the drawbacks of the camera of course.
@@volkom91 I mean all these cameras running 10 but log are running noise reduction. Even when you turn noise reduction off, there’s still some noise reduction being baked in. It’s been proven. So you’re saying because you have to manually run noise reduction, it’s not usable? That’s silly.
@@cammackey I agree in terms of Sony A7Siii, that footage is bad exactly because of this, it's noise reduced badly in camera. But the C70 has the DGO sensor, which is not noise reduction, and it looks fantastic in my opinion, while the bmpcc6k is raw, so again, not noise reduced in camera, only gain switched at a certain iso. Plus the bmpcc6k noise looks better than any other noise I've seen, maybe the fuji noise is on par with it, but that's an entirely different sensor technology so not really comparable. But to get back to the point, I agree, in camera noise reduction isn't better in terms of quality than noise reduction in post on RAW footage. What I'm saying is extra dynamic range under the "usable" signal to noise ratio should be treated with an asterisk.
@@volkom91 agree to disagree brother. I’m all about results, I don’t care about tech specs. Most people who try to debate my results always end up being Gereald Undone fans. He’s a source of great info, but all of that goes out the door for real world use. I only care about results, results that will help take my image to the next level. Now that I got my gear on lock, I can relax and start focusing back on what really matters haha, like my lighting and directing!!!
Good comparison. I’ve been watching your channel since the Fuji days. Man you have come far. Keep up the good work!
Thank you man!!! Past two years have been wild for me honestly 🙏🏽
Dude...nice video! I’ve been watching your work on IG wondering when we’d see the Komodo review. I love that you’ve done shots in the same light color and angle for accurate side by side.
And two in one day...
great video! I have had a zcam f6 for almost a year now and have shot a number of projects with this camera. the video shows what you can really count on in real life with these cameras. zraw is completely useless unless davinci resolve supports it. a similar situation with prores raw. of course you can import Zraw into premiere, but you won't be working with colorists in premiere. If you are shooting serious projects with a large team, it will be difficult to persuade colorists and editors to work with zraw videosuite every time in order to use zraw. therefore, comparing prores on zcam and red raw in this case is more than correct.
How are you liking the F6? Have you found a workflow solution for zraw yet? These cameras still appear to be the best value
@@divisionoflabor3070 hi
I loved this camera, but i couldn't find any solution for zraw. It was one of the reasons, why i bought RED Komodo. I think, ZCAM - is a great thing for small projects, but not for adv
I’m curious to see this same comparison but only on Komodo shot once in R3D and again in Prores to see what the 16bit vs 10 bit difference is when you remove the variable of a totally different sensor and image processing pipeline. How does the Red compare to itself when you shoot raw vs prores. If the prores is 98% as good as the raw then I think the real question is not which codec you have but which sensor and how good the readout is from the sensor. To me that is why Alexa is able to shine even in just prores. Because you’re getting that insanely rich detail with their DGO technology
Yes! Super interested in testing this as well. I know at the end of the day, pro res will bake in under and over exposed information. So at the point it comes down to if pro res has a dynamic range limit too
@@cammackey Bro all these videos are insanely educational to me. Just starting out in the world of video and ingesting as much as i can about it. You mentioned in a previous video that shooting pro-res on Komodo was kind of missing the point of the Komodo, and while I understand the differences between Red raw and prores, it would be really interesting to see how the two differ in the same camera! keep up the good work and thank you for making these!
@@_juanchamorro dude happy to hear I’m helping out!!!! And yes I’m assuming the pro res would be similar to most other high end cinema cameras thay don’t run raw. But I could be wrong, only one way to find out!!!
@@cammackey hell yeah🙌🏽🙌🏽
Man I really appreciate the video. So I have a z cam E2-S6 and I do music videos but mostly outside do to me not having lights yet. And so you suggest that I should be using raw files for filming. Just wondering how much space do they take on a c fast card
If you’re outside, I would say the ZCam is just fine! It still has insane dynamic range and super small files in H265 (almost exact performance as prores). This test is mainly for stretching the dynamic range in high contrast situations. You can see from the outside shots, the zcam skin tones recover as good as the Komodo.
Actually thought the difference might be bigger. Would be interested to see how the full frame Z-cam pits against the RED. I'm about to get the Atomos Ninja V for my Pana S1 to see how the 12bit RAW is on that. Though I know that setup wouldn't hold up to your abusive style of shooting haha
global shutter and 16 bit color is pretty rad though
Yeah that’s why I’m always saying the zcam is amazing! And the c70 performs even better in the shadows. Like all of these cameras will get the job done. And I’m also interested in trying prores raw ca the Komodo! I’ll have to set that up
12 bit linear still sucks tho. Needs to be 16 bit if its linear. 12 bit isnt enough for the shadows. 12 bit log and 16 bit linear are the same tho
it all boils down to the highlight and shadow falloff. Good lighting is key, camera doesn't matter
Good lighting matters when you’re shooting thing that you have control over. When you’re having to shoot run and gun ish and have zero control over lighting conditions.. the camera starts to matter.
He just showed you that camera does matter. It also matters with controlled lighting. Do you really think controlled lighting doesn't have shadow areas like he showcased in the extreme barn footage? All cameras don't treat shadow detail the same and that's what he proved in this video. Go shoot with the BMP4K over the Arri if it doesn't matter.
@@point5production273 all I'm saying is pixel peeking doesn't matter, if you have to lift your shadows that much, maybe you should have used some fill in the first place.
Yes the camera matters, but the bulk of any look is always defined by the light.
Sorry, shouldn't have said camera doesn't matter.
@@tommyinthe8ir Even with fill the image would look better on the Komodo because of how it handles low light information. You clearly don't understand light and shadow across all values.
@@point5production273 lol
Detail oriented as always. ✊🏽
Komodo looks like as flexible as still raw files, incredible!! Would you say it has the same capabilities as the Canon R5 still raw files? Can you get Komodo/C70 to match the R5 raw still files?
I think it’s close to photo, but not the same. Photo raw requires wayyyyy less processing power so I’m sure there’s like internal noise management and crazy ish going on.
@@cammackey Thanks for your answer! Cool, good to know.
next you should do pocket 6k vs komodo and try n find that $4k difference.
Would be a rad test!! I’ll see if I can find one. The main thing for me is I almost bricked my pocket 4k multiple times.. the body just can’t keep up. I always need rails and shit to rig it up to which was always annoying when having to hike through the back country. The square form factor is clutch.
@@cammackey well dont be too rugged with the komodo, red is def not know for reliability as much as they try and promote it with this cam, productions still rent 3-4 at a time.
You are amazing. Instant sub!
Log files can be pretty thin, but once rigged out with a ninja v you can capture prores raw in the zcam. I wonder how that would fare vs the red. Maybe another test for a slow day!
Yes def will be testing this! So far I don’t think pro res raw is as great as people think it is. But only one way to find out!!
This is more of a conversation about the dynamic range capabilities of the cameras than it is about raw. I’d guess the results would be very similar if you shot this test in ProRes on the Red.
Which is why it’s titled Komodo vs zcam dynamic range lol. But I will be testing the komodos raw ca prores!
@@cammackey Then why does the thumbnail say "RAW vs. 10-bit"? And why are you constantly talking about the differences between RAW and LOG in the video?
@@alantuttphotography because pro res is 10 bit......
@@cammackey but why not test z raw vs Komodo raw. I mean you have two differentials which doesn’t make for a good “vs” video. It’s like are you comparing the two cameras, or two codecs? There isn’t much good data to be gained from this. The Komodo at its highest setting is better than the z cam at its not-highest setting... great.
@@xakhuh5104 because most people don’t use ZRaw because there’s not a lot of support for it. I’m not a youtuber who makes pointless videos. I make realistic comparisons. Most people with the Komodo will be using red raw. Most people with the zcam use pro res. That’s why.
You're the best! Really appreciate your honesty, in the end it's all about the real world use! It clearly shows that the RED is the superior!
It’s crazy cause people will still debate it lol, even tho the evidence is right in front of them. And thank you man!!
I think Red had a better lens.
This is more like a camera test and not a codec test!
Try to do this with one camera
I think C70 have stronger shodows and in does not record raw!
C70 has better shadows than the zcam. I did a video on that. But C70 still falls apart when trying to recover unexposed parts.
Yeah having tested c70, e2-f6 and red gemini pretty extensively, I can say zcams issues aren't with log or 10b so much as their internal processing. Only way around that processing is hdmi raw out to prores raw which signficantly increases shadow color fidelity as well as color noise. Raw does still retain a benefit in tests of my c70 vs my red gemini but it seems it may only show up in such underexposure that it's likely beyond most practical applications. Also I've had some improvements by modifying the log format the c70 records as some of the limitation comes from processing and compressing a log format that dedicates the range above middle grey to only 6 stops of DR, which unnecessarily compresses lower shadows.
@@noahyv the C70 is legit the best imagine I’ve seen come off a compressed image. Was insanely impressed with it. Bummed the camera ergonomics weren’t useful for me :(((
@@cammackey yeah I still struggle with how I'd approach handheld exactly, though I don't suppose it's really any different than the box cameras (zcam/red). I do tons of gimbal work lately so the AF and ND and low power consumption make my life so many times easier though Im a bit conflicted that now I find myself downselling clients to the c70 since the c70 is just much more convenient on set for small-crew projects. Really liking the arri709+1 LUT I've loaded on my c70, kinda looking forward to baking in good color that looks great on set more often actually since I don't always know who is doing post. Seems to even be a bit of an improvement over ipp2 which sometimes doesn't handle light sources with spikey color spectrums well.
@@noahyv help me. Komodo. C70 or pocket 6k pro:)
Can you compare the Komodo R3D to the Sigma FP 12-bit Cinema DNG?
Great content! Hands down one of my favourite film making channels!
🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽 I hope to one day have the time to dress my videos up a little more lol
at this point cameras with dual exposer hold out really good.. However RED Raw is one of a kind..
Do you mean DGO? Even with dgo, if parts are too under exposed, it’s being baked in like that. After owning the C70, I’d say it has the same DR performance as any of these top 10 bit log cameras BUT when recovering its shadows, it’s hold more color depth! Which is the main issue!
@@cammackey yes DGO.. im considering the c70 but since it doesnt shoot Raw im starting to get cold feet on it and leaning torwards the R5 because i cant afford a Red as of yet..lol but on the flip side c70 does have good selling point just not for no 6k
@@vzbeatz1706 the R5 8k raw still doesn’t look as clean as the C70 in clog 2. I owned the C70 and it’s one of the best 10bit log images I’ve seen yet.
As far as making money goes would much rather have no nonsense Canon DGO 10-bit log for workflow reasons. A lot of the dynamic range from the Komodo are “gravy” stops and you have to work hard to get it. Cool little camera. Competition is good.
THE REAL DIFERENCE ID : $ 3,500 price diference lol !
If you’re making money in this industry than that’s not that big of a difference honestly. If someone can’t afford it then most likely they don’t have the type of clients that require it.
@@cammackey you are right,its awesome that you have the high end clients ! but,maybe for someone who's barely starting or on a budget ( my case ) a Z cam is a better option
@@randrmedia8338 in that case, 100% yes! I think ZCam are amazing introduction cameras. I’d chose it over a Sony fx3 or fx6
Zcam has a wierd artifacrts, looks at the sweater, those lines from white objects..
Nice work!
So honest, I respect that!
Don't take any of this as a knock you are an amazing artist with a huge amount of talent I don't think it maters what you use it'll come out good, but I am going to be critical of a few things, please accept this as constructive and tell me what you think. First you are correct resolve does not support ZRAW, I am still shooting ZRAW it makes a huge difference and simply convert it out to a EXR or other format for now. I am under the belief that you have to compare apples to apples, this test still does not do that in that situation. The next thing at time stamp 4:10 around you explain the two shots(granted still not a raw comparison) you explain that you over exposed the RED. By doing that you giving the RED an edge in the shadows making that comparison unfair, lets say it is just a stop that is a big ordeal. To my eyes it looks like the RED was over expoused by a stop or two and the ZCAM was under exposure by a stop or two. That up to 4 stop swing makes it hard to really even compare them let alone the compression that makes under exposure worse. You talk about color detail alot as well. This should never be a surpise when comparing RAW to H.265 as the H.265 is throwing away up to 1/2 of the color information. When looking at darker under expoused aeras it will naturally go flat as darker things will return less color information. Our own eyes even behave this way, in lower light it is much harder to see color information this is true for cameras as well any compression on the color information like 4:2:0 will makee it worse. LOG is a color profile and RAW is a recording format, two completely different things. Also you note then at around 5:25, that you are not sure if the white balance was set correctly. White balance is baked in for H.265 and not for RAW, you can change this and fix this with RAW not for H.265. The literally recoreded color on the image is wrong but due to the color compression this is compounded as every 4 pixels share a chroma value. You can literally do this test and you'll see that white balance is critical for destructive codecs. White balance is important in general for creative reasons but thats subjective. 7:50 again you cite color informtion in the darks, the issue is the compression throwing away the color and dynamic range technically as well as its 10 bit. Also the green shirt, it is not color is is actual detail, due to more color information and technically more dyanmic range. Anyway, I watch all your stuff, love seeing what you do keep up the great work.
You keep referring to testing raw vs a pro res and not pro res raw.. as you’ll see in my thumbnail, that is the point man haha. In the shot where the the red was a little over exposed.. I was over exposed by 1/4 a stop.. the zcam wasn’t underexposed, it was exposed for the highlights. To your eye it may look the way you said, but from the waveforms in person it was accurate. Also I didn’t state once that this was suppose to be a fair test, also stated why I didn’t shoot ZRaw. So everything you just stated is obvious.
The point of this test are for those who use the zcam on prores since zraw isnt a realistic option yet. With almost zero support, most pros I personally know will not spend the time to convert zraw to ProRes. And I personally do not care for prores raw cause I do not want to rely on an external recorder while on location shooting run and gun stuff.
Also whitebalance is irrelevant in this test. Shifting the WB on 10 but footage will not kill the dynamic range performance or bring back skin tones.
And obviously the color detail is being lost in the shadows on the zcam. That was the point of this test lol. So your comment is confusing cause you’re treating this test as if it was inaccurate.. yet it’s a test comparing the Komodo raw to the S6 pro res.. the two most used formats for each camera.
@@cammackey Well that makes complete sense. H.265 does suck vs any other RAW format. H.265 is really a delivery format not a capture format. However now you might be able to really setup a new challenge as now all formats support Prores 422, which is certainly far far better than H.265. The only thing you can't record is the F8 2.4:1. Brand new update really helps the camera.
@@darrenorange2982 I actually did a previous video comparing the h265 to the pro res on the zcam and the h265 holds up just had less sharpness detail but very minimal. Also.. for this test the zcam was in pro res..
Isn't there even a third variable present in this analysis ? Does not the Red cameras all use internal 16 Bit (Not the typical 12 bit used in ProRes RAW or ZRAW ?). Would this account for the deeper and clearly superior colour information we are seeing in the green leaves of the trees ?
Yup! The R3D raw is 16 bit. Tho a lot of people talk about how the red raw is still a 12 bit linear blah blah blah. All I know is that it’s able to recover a crap ton of detail and that’s all I care about lol
@@cammackey YUP. I don't like RED's hidden eco system expenses, but I sure do like its classic looking superior images.
Good work. Respect your candidness.
you are comparing RedRaw vs .h265, ZCam can record on Prores HQ is better than h265
The prores HQ on the zcam doesn’t give you better dynamic range. It just gives you a wider color spectrum. The shadow details and color would be the same.
I was literally just watching your little phone vid about 16 vs 10 when this came on lol. Nice. I think the skin tone info shots made the most impression on me (Z-cam owner btw)
Yeah the zcam really holds up!! The C70 would of been able to hold more skin tone detail for sure. But nothing can match a RAW output. Either way, they’re all useable! This test was jsut to show how much info you can really stretch from a file
Which is best Z cam S6G ProRes raw OR Red Komodo raw?
Zcam and pro res cant tough red raw.
@@cammackey Thank you!!!
My camera loves me. Shut up
Ahaha what’d you have to do to it?!
i legit dont understand how this is even a discussion? the end picture is what most people care about usually. its already a known fact that RAW > anything.
lol just had to show the facts cause a lot of people like to debate this for some reason
How many guitar do you have?
Lol I think like 6? I use to have a couple of other ones but legit have no clue where they went.
@@cammackey I just notice there is always some guitar in your background
@@keima1110 haha I actually just played one the other day, it’s been a while sadly. Been too busy 😭
These are the best 🦦
Wish I could ship you the cameras I’m looking at for a comparison like this
Hahaha! If I ever started to make decent money off CZcams, I’d test everything! And on actual productions. Not just these basic ass tests lol
how you expose the cameras?
Both are being exposed right below peaking to preserve highlights
And yet, who the hell is pushing a RAW or Log image to the point where this even matters. I know I aint, and I suspect if you are, you need to work on lighting more. The issue with RAW, or 444, or 422 HQ, is that you end up filling hard drives to the point of it being ridiculous - when there really is no need, because most of us are just slapping a LUT on, adding some contrast, and that's it. I love a solid 10 bit 200mbps codec, just for that reason.
I rocked the h265 on the ZCam. Was Gucci for me. And I hate LUTS. But I do like having a lot of range and info cause my grades always look a little more polished. It never fails. And I shoot a lot of run and gun commercial work. Don’t always have an option to use lighting. Sooooo.... it matters.
@@cammackey Yeah, as you say, it depends on what kind of work one does 😊
I don't care what you say. Z-Cam has clearly more dynamic range.
Joking :)
Hahaha best comment. Thanks fir watching brother 🙏🏽
Bro you sound like a boyfriend after breaking up and having a new girlfriend!! This one is better bla bla... to be fair record In zraw then transcode intro Apple pro res 4444 compare both. Not fair your comparison compare Zraw vs res raw!
Boring. This video was about testing the two most mainly used codecs on each camera. Gtfo.
@@cammackey hahaha nice response next time make it fairly dude!
@@MusicAndLifePeru I’m a working professional. I care more about realistic workflows and results. I ain’t about to use zraw and tap my specd out 16inch MacBook for a weekend to convert terabytes of footage. This is why I find this argument pointless.
@@MusicAndLifePeru there’s plenty of other better and more legit youtubers you can watch and waste your time on with pointless videos haha
@@cammackey I agree with you I’m not spending my time in transcoding for a full project. One of the cons of ZCAM using with my F6 that’s why I stick to zlog. My only review and it’s fair to give my opinion is that I would only transcode a few clips just for the purpose of the comparison of zraw vs red raw. Saying this in aware the red raw is better in many ways to zraw. Just would it be fairly to my point of view to compare both of them. All good bro agree to disagree.
Want real highlights? Want real shadows? Shoot film, end of story. We will live forever lowering highlights and pushing shadows and never get the quality people 150 years ago were already getting by using film. Let's get real shall we? 6 months from now (if not less) the Komodo will certainly be already trashed by whatever else coming soon with better highlights and shadows. Nothing is more hysterically funny to me these days than watching couple year old videos of new gear getting praised and drooled over then that now is no more than low-resale hardware imaging garbage. Ahhhhhhhh how much I love Super 8 more and more! Thanks for this video and all your videos, great photos, great content.
Film has horrible dynamic range compared to these cameras, and if you know what you're doing you can create a filmstock-like look from these files. I love film as well, but I guess it's just easier to get "the look" instantly withour all the work, that's why we romanticise it at this point.
Film has very limited dynamic range, specially depending on the stock. The reason people tend to think it has better dynamic range is because of the insanely gorgeous highlight roll off it has. And also because 150 years ago they were still using lighting to lift the base exposure to match the highlights lol
Bruh ain’t nobody shooting films 150 years ago
@@thejwoerd lol we talkin like early 1900s!
@@cammackey Do you think it’s worth changing the camera from m4 to s6?I have doubts that there is almost no difference between them