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God on Trial: Does Evil Shut Down the Case for Miracles?
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- čas přidán 23. 06. 2024
- Miracles: dazzling displays of God's power, right? But what about all the suffering in the world? Does the problem of evil erase the hope of miracles?
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For a full blown theodicy I would endorse see John Peckham's book Theodicy of Love. He discusses his book here. czcams.com/video/t8IAD2U2Zd4/video.htmlsi=IXKp5IMvLcc8qAWD
Can Adventists @ you now lol.
Just found this channel. I only have one question, how do you know the miracles of Jesus weren't staged and spread as fake rumors by the local Roman government, to promote this pacifist preacher and his sect - as explained in "The Gospel of Afranius"? I read that book as a little kid and this is what I have always believed about Jesus. How is this wrong? What am I missing?
@@valinorean4816 Lol, why then did the 'Roman goverment' spend the next three centuries trying to destroy what they started?
God owes us nothing, which makes his love and grace more meaningful
We owe him something though
I've always wondered how that works if he's the one that puts us here in the first place?
@@wannabe_scholar82 And humans threw him away for pride
He literally made intelligent beings capable of pain, suffering, and also love and happiness, he owes us the same things a father owes his children, to do otherwise is child abuse or just cruelty. If someone made an sentient AI he would be obligated to treat it at least somewhat humanely, we all understand that doing otherwise is wrong
@@maksim3417 The point would still stand.
An aspect of God allowing suffering may sometimes be to provoke us humans to sympathize with each other instead of allowing our anger and envy to rule our relations.
In the Book of Leviticus, when God infects Miriam with leprosy, it results in she, Moses, and Aaron ceasing to squabble with each other and uniting in prayer for her healing, a request He grants, demonstrating both His power and mercy.
I think one important aspect of miraculous healings that we quite often fail to recognize, is that they are a sign of the future healing when all things are renewed. It can sometimes feel unfair why some are healed and others are not, but if you currently struggling and feel like it is unfair that some people around you are healed but you're not, remember that you also will be healed in the future just like them if you trust in God
Thanks. Favoritism was, and still is to some degree, why I am highly skeptical of modern miracles. It just seems so unfair, but I also see how I am limited in my view compared to God. So perhaps there is a good reason why some receive miracles and others do not. Kierkegaard's concept of "infinite qualitative distinction" really helps here I think.
"Favoritism" as we perceive it has always been the case with miracles. In the Old Testament, God had a special relationship with Israel. In the Gospels, healings were limited to those in physical proximity to Jesus. Same thing with the Christians in Acts. God has never treated everyone identically, but that's to be expected because no two people are identical.
@@StageWatcher Right, plus even two totally identical people at outset (genetically identical twins have some aspects of identical-ness) then have different life choices. Even if the nurture aspect hadn't made them into different people in that sense, they would still be in different contexts.
Luke 4:25-34 seems like it would be relevant here. God's purposes are beyond our understanding. Just have a privileged place of understanding a few of the Old Testament miracles, and of course the New Testament ones. This does not preclude them continuing to this day, it just precludes our understanding through the benefit of scripture.
The problem of evil becomes a trap when people start equating suffering to evil.
God uses affliction for our benefit:
Psalm 119:67,71,75:
"Before I was afflicted I went astray,
But now I keep Your word.
It is good for me that I have been afflicted,
That I may learn Your statutes.
I know, O Lord, that Your judgments are right,
And that in faithfulness You have afflicted me."
Amen
“Why does God miraculously save some people and not others” is not the same question as “are miracles possible.” So as far as I’m concerned, that’s just a deflection when people ask that. Asking why God does or doesn’t do specific miracles for certain people has no bearing on whether or not He does them at all
I think Eric is addressing in this series often raised criticisms of the cases that could be considered miracles. I thin he is trying to head-off at the pass the inevitable charges against God that pop up with regularity, e.g. He is evil and He did everything wrong.
Just to be sure, are you following the series?
Also why is your comment one day ago?
@@edisonchin2463 this was originally an unlisted video on a playlist. I happened to stumble upon it by perusing through the channel
The word for salvation and healing is from the Greek word sozo. To deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole. Thayer's Greek Lexicon: ́ sōzō.
Can God do one apart from the other. Yes. As to why God does certain things, consider Job's in 38-41 answer from God. Job asked many questions (122), but God replied with his own (77). Jesus replied to the Pharisees with own question which they couldn't answer. My take on unanswered questions is that we walk by faith, not by sight. God can reveal anything and do all things, however, he does not have to. Nor would he be required to heal eveyone or help everyone. Jesus used specific examples and you should look them up for more understanding and pray for wisdom as in James 1:6-8. He helped the widow in Elijah's day who fed the prophet and healed Naaman of leprosy after his 7 time baptism in the Jordan, an allegory of Acts 2:38. I think that by faith we can feel the move of the Holy Spirit and have understanding, as he gives it might could be the answer that you are really looking for. He shall teach you all things, John 14:26. God bless and hope this helped.
Another part of the answer: People don't pray as much as we think they do.
I've received two medically miraculous answers to prayer, and a number of strongly coincidental but not acientifically impossible answers to prayer. But these only occurred during periods in my life wherein I was ardently prusuing my faith. Living it, not just believing it. And i was praying a lot more, too.
In short: in my experience, God is more likely to answer the prayers of those who pray regularly, and take prayer seriously. Most people, when they ask for a miracle, do so in the middle of a prayer desert. This is one of the reasons (I think) that so many go unanswered.
@@Draezeth Hi, how often were you praying, how often should we pray so that prayers are answered? Thanks.
@@alexandrucosovanu2151 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you." (Matthew 6:33)
There is no discrete threshold for when God will start answering your prayers. Just pray like you mean it. Pray because you realize nothing in life is more important than the reason God created you. Pray because you believe that God will work out all things if you pray.
"Always rejoice, *Unceasingly pray,* In everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you." (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18)
"iF God iS rEaL WhY doEs mY nEcK hURt?"
Average Atheist Argument Against the Existence of God :
I couldn't find my keys therefore no god!
Pretty sure the argument is about why God allows evil
@@edisonchin2463 the person initiating that argument would first have to define what “evil” is no? Thats a huge value judgement word, it needs a strong definition
@@nemo.0755 yea I suppose, what are you trying to say thou?
Personally, I find the character development explanation to be the best I've heard for the problem of Evil, mostly because the free-will explanation tends to fall short due to people not usually defining what this free-will is or what it's for, but if God's intent from the get go was to build us up into a people that want to make the world a better place, and to protect it, then the only way that would be possible is if we were put in a dangerous world full of pain and suffering to test us, see how we'd react to it, and turn us into people that struggle with both Nature and Man in order to realize abstract concepts that aren't found in the material world. Nietzsche and many other Atheist philosophies culminate in the idea of "If I sift through every particle, molecule, and atom in the universe, I won't find even one quark of Justine, Morality, or Empathy, so it is our duty to create these things that do not exist." They just don't realize that we believe in the same Ultimate Purpose, the main difference being that Atheists believe that we gave ourselves this purpose while Christians believe an intervener gave us that Purpose and prepared a careless universe that this Purpose could bloom in.
Ironically enough, _Bruce Almighty_ addressed this complaint rather succinctly.
When Bruce became overloaded with the requests and prayers of people -despite trying _everything_ he could think of to organize and systematize them- he simply said, "To All: Yes!" - and utter chaos ensued (rather comically, albeit darkly).
I only got $17!
That was about saying yes to every single prayer, not about healing every sick person and making sure the Holocaust doesnt happen
@@Greyz1741. that event didn't happen the way it is told to us. Even if it did, how are human atrocities God's fault again? The "problem of evil" is not a valid argument anymore. Get new material!
2. If you read the gospels, which you probably didn't, Jesus (God) prefers to heal people that have faith in him over that ones that don't. Healing unbelievers is an act of grace, not a "moral" duty. What morality are you basing this on, your opinion?
@@Michael_the_Drunkard even if that event was a deception it wouldnt be relevant to the general topic of bad things happening, youre just swapping the source of the bad things. The reality youre proposing where those people are behind all of this stuff in the world is actually even more treacherous
I know Jesus has a bunch of weird arbitrary things he does with how he chooses to give "grace" to people, like also saying a bunch of cryptic things so people dont get it. The content of the gospels doesnt help your case that this is a real god that youre talking about
@@Greyz174 what are you doing to help others or are you just stuck in a comment section talking about evils.
David Wood in his livestream with IP a year ago on whether atheists understand their own arguments mentioned that it just never crossed Paul's mind despite the suffering to doubt God's existence in the same way as certain modern sceptics and other people who assume a theistic God must strictly be a pleasure maximiser/pain minimiser.
I recommend watching it too so here's the title: "Do Atheists Understand Their Own Arguments? (LIVE With InspiringPhilosophy)"
Wait this actually answers a lot 😯 thanks 🙏😊
*_The Biggest Reason NOT included in this discussion_* is that God cannot directly teach us to ACT as a Child of God (instead of a body or Ego); we have to learn this through *_Self-Inspection,_* and suffering is one of many tools to accomplish this. *_The END Objective is NOT an end to suffering for everyone,_* but a SEPARATION of the "wheat" from the "chaff."
Some people will choose Nature over Heaven. And that being their choice, they will be left to continue *_suffering_* by their own choice. Someone can *_disbelieve_* gravity, but they will still pay the consequences of ignoring it.
😎♥✝🇺🇸💯
I find it hypocritical when many atheists say the problem of evil is a reason to disbelieve in God yet they are firmly committed to defending naturalism despite not knowing the answers to questions such as what was before the big bang, how life came from non-life, why we have consciousness, why the universe is so finely tuned, why objective morality exists etc. They will say 'we don't know why these things are like this but that doesn't mean God exists'. So why does it suddenly mean that God doesn't exist when theists say that we don't fully know why God allows suffering? It's essentially an atheism of the gaps argument
you would think it would lead them deism, that god or some super natural force exists in the universe is created tit, but doesn't care about it.
I don't think many atheists think the problem of evil disproves God. It's that it disproves an all-knowing, all-powerfull, and all-loving version of God because it contradicts that idea of God.
Not knowing what was before the Big Bang doesn't contradict the Big Bang. Not knowing how life came from non-life doesn't contradict evolution.
1. Before the Big bang: We don't know is a more honest and appropriate answer then saying a god did it. The ancient Greeks didn't know what caused lightning and claimed it was Zeus. This is no different to you putting your god in the one gap we still have: the gasp of the ignorant unable to accept a mystery.
2. Life came from Non Life: Life is the result of chemistry, so life came from organic chemicals interacting and evolving over millenia until proto cells developed into bacteria.
3. Why we have consciousness: Consciousness is a result of the brain. Alter the brain, you alter the consciousness. Split brain experiments, lobotomies, and the case of Phineas Gage shows this.
4. Fine Tuned Universe: It's not. We can barely survive on this one small rock, the vast majority of the universe is inhospitable to life.
5. Objective morality: Does it exist? Even your objective good book the Bible is okay with slavery, which we now dissapprove of, so even Biblical morality isn't objective.
@@stachman9531 Deism at the very least yea. But not knowing the answer to something (like why God allows suffering) doesn't warrant the belief that the thing in question (i.e. that a good God exists) is false. The atheist would first need to prove that a good God couldn't have any morally sufficient reasons for allowing suffering. Just like the theist has to prove that what caused the Big Bang couldn't be a naturalistic phenomenon. The only difference is that the latter can be demonstrated philosophically, while the former cannot.
What?
Heyy! I recognize that canva God picture in the thumbnail lol. I used that on the slide presentation my grandma told me to make.
Curious as to what the presentation was about?
@@wannabe_scholar82 Tithes hahaha. She was the one who presented it in our church.
This video is really timely for me. Going through tough times right now but always need to remember that God knows what he’s doing and is just wanting me to grow as a person and get stronger. 🙏🏼
Amen
God knew that evil would enter the world before he made it. He gave us free will, and we chose to rebel against him. The suffering that we endure on this earth due to sin will give us a new and better perspective on living with God than Adam or Eve had before the fall.
I believe that is why God allows suffering.
It is a punishment for mankind's disobedience, and something to contrast with paradise.
Once again thank you for another wonderful video and thank you for sharing the word.
Miracles are a scarcity. Evil is commonplace. Almost as if there was a curse on this place and evil had some kind of limited reign.
If anyone has played persona 5 Royal to the very end... THAT is why a god that removes all suffering isn't something anyone wants
ohhh haha😂
yes that is an actual reason why god chose a tree
@@rusluck6620 wait what do you mean? I didn't get it
@@lolmenx4 that is why god made the tree of sin: so adam's life wouldn't be a sham
By definition, we can’t know what bad things God has prevented
Keep up the good work. God bless, homie.
If I was struggling to pay rent, and a billionaire gave me $1000 to help me out, what would be the appropriate response? "He's a billionaire! Why didn't he give me enough money to pay a year's worth of rent?" "He's a billionaire! Why didn't he give more people $1000 to pay their rent too?"
I so regularly see Christians giving praise to God for ways he has helped them, only to have atheists blast them away: "You're so arrogant to think God gives you special privileges while children are starving in Africa!" Like the billionaire who can afford to help multiple people with their rent, God doesn't owe any of us his grace. It is pretty callused to say God's charity is evil, -especially when those are the same people claiming to have no bias.
Solid work
God incarnated into our world as one of us not to erase all suffering and evil at once, but to experience it fully Himself. This is something anti-Christian needs to understand about our God. The hope we hold onto, the promises He made, is not about short-term lack of pain. It's the ultimate restoration from it. God loved humanity so much He made Himself an example of that. That's an important part of what Christ's suffering, death and resurrection means.
I just quit trying to figure life out. It's less stressful that way. The whole "why does God allow bad things to happen to good people" argument fails in so many ways, especially with miracles. Both Christians and Atheists will tell you "not to judge" but will then make a "judgment":by labeling someone or something as "good or evil". Besides we don't know what people are doing behind closed doors. The person who didn't receive a miracle could be a habitual puppy kicker for all we know. If someone thinks that morality is subjective then we couldn't even label the puppy kicker as evil because it's not evil subjectively to them and this because nothing more than opinion. And what worth does the opinion of a ball of cosmic space dust descended from monkeys really have? The whole argument is self sabotaging to atheists and it's useless to Christians so I usually just avoid it altogether.
100% agree. Because of miracle stories like the ones presented here and ones in other religions, I'm not a strict naturalist. But still, it just seems like too much to figure out why X happens sometimes but not others or why Y happens here and not there. That's why I just claim a really agnostic position on most things.
@@wannabe_scholar82 NO it's the Internet. You CANT agree! You're supposed to insult me then run away and ignore any follow up replies 😁 I disagree with you agreeing.
true. We dont know what people do indoors
@@oscaralegre3683 I was waiting for someone to say it's okay to kick cats though. Just kidding 😁
God's plan is God's plan and not ours. I see the core of God's plan as bringing as many people to him in heaven as possible. God knows the plan, He is the Alpha and Omega, and I see miracles as tweeks He has in his plan, at just the right times and places, to bring that one last lost soul to heaven. 😊
this nails it. every decision He ever makes is to save as many as possible. His word says we all will understand that each decision was perfect, but I think it will take all eternity to fully grasp it.
As a man who does not hold info well in his head, is slow on his feet, and who is unsure about his ability in apologetics, I hope you will know how much I appreciate your videos. They are easy to understand and even when I may not fully understand something, you do a good job of clarification and explanation.
You have a subscriber. Thank you so much and God bless you and yours.
I would also like to point out that it is very difficult for me to take the complaints of skeptics on this issue very seriously when i never hear those same skeptics condemn the actions of men, which in most (not all) cases lead to said suffering. Where is Dawkins condemning communism? Where is Harris condemning big Pharma? Where is Aron Ra condemnjng eicked business practices by megacorporations?
And even if they ARE condemning them, i cannot hear them over their condemnation of God.
When I hear them do this with the exact, same, precise level of frequency, volume, and conviction as they do in their condemning of God, I'll take them more seriously.
"We live in a world where God allows enough suffering for character development"
- Calvin's dad, probably
The problem of evil and the problem of suffering are two separate things within a Christian paradigm.
To be evil is to use ones free will to go consciously against the will of God. God allows this because it is a unavoidable consequence of free will.
Suffering in itself isn't exactly evil, it can be evil, but it can also be good. Why does God allow it? Because it serves his purposes in some way shape or form.
*_Thank you and Bless you for the journey of exploration._*
And I pray that you find sufficient humility to explore the Unitarian view of the Bible and its wisdom. EVIL has long feared Truth and has ALWAYS been busy trying to derail all efforts toward Truth, even in the 4th century *_politicization_* of Christianity.
😎♥✝🇺🇸💯
hey, i'm a devout Christian. I just wanna know why God allows animal suffering
What are characteristics of miracles that allows us to differentiate them from luck and random chance?
There's the fact they often violate the laws of reality
the religious context. Did you watch the past few videos?
This channel rocks!
Regarding the "sould-building" defence for the problem of evil (that God allows suffering because it helps us develop qualities such empathy): What would you think of a parent that allowed his child to horribly burn his hand in a stove, just so the child could develop the quality of cautiousness? We would all say that this is a very evil parent. Same with God. An omnipotent God could create beings with those spiritual qualities without making them suffer, and a benevolent God would want to do that. The fact that God did not do this means that he is not benevolent.
If you don't like soul-building then throw it away. the point is there are multiple ways the Christian can undercut the force of the PoE. You don't have that with miracles. So you're kinda missing the point.
@@TestifyApologetics i have 2 questions please:
First: I just watched your debate with viced rhino and from what it seems, you lost and the argument from undesigned coincidences had Fallen apart. My question Is if you have a response to that or if there are any arguments against that
Second question: If I submitted a question/doubt on the talkaboutdoubts website, how long would it take for it to be answered?
@@TestifyApologetics ok, Turns out the comments unanimously hated you, so I thought to take it so, but Turns out i was wrong.
You were actually more on the winning side in the debate.
Congrats!!!
Sorry for underestimating you, I just never Saw a comment section be so unified in using ad hominem to say you're wrong, so I thought that they would definitely be oatiantly and structurally critiquing your beliefs, but they failed.
Now, back to your point about that patent being Bad is just foolish.
Let's start off with the issues:
1. The issues aren't as Bad as we take them. The usual problem of evil argument us based mostly on emotion, so it already makes it kinda problematic
2. It would still make God benevolent, because we're not dealing with just a child here, you're dealing with a far different situation. God constantly warns us and teaches us, so when he goes for the heavy hitters it isn't so simply.
God gave us the Unique Power of free will, so instead of being the Strict controlling parent, he's instead more loving. He will give you warnings and he will teach you, but he Also respects your own decision.
It's like the parent would be dealing with the kind of kid, who would still burn his hand on that stove even when he/She had been warned countless times. Over and over and over again. And the parent tries, but they Also know, that the kid would still ignore them, scream and yell at them and just go to many extremes to achieve the burn wound that they so desire. The parent just knows that at this point
it would be more controlling for the parent to then force this belief onto the person, compared to something, that isn't that much of a wound.
Again, I'm not trying to deevaluate emotions, but I'm pretty sure the argument of evil is taken to extremes that have no reason to be even taken seriously.
God respects our decisions very much and he knows wether it's a good idea to let you do so or not and will DEFINITELY warn you.
@@dominikdurkovsky8318 Suffering not only comes from our own decision, but also from factor out of of control such as natural disasters and diseases.
In Daniel 11
Some with knowledge fall (spiritually I am guessing)
And they fall in order to be refined.
Nice name. דִּנִיֵּאל is my name also.... and one of the VERY best books of the whole bible too. Gosh I love it, start to finish.
JESUS: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by **Δανιήλ the prophet,** stand in the holy place where it ought not, (whoso readeth, let him understand:), then let them which be in Judæa....
> <
And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Dan11:35
cheers
"'Evil'.... by what or who's standard?" is the appropriate first response.
“How do you define it?”
“Why are you asking me if you can’t state the standard?”
“Why are you questing me? You obviously don’t want a conversation.”
I think most people should call “committing omnicide on millions of millions of humans as well as intelligent and innocent animals, ordering the slaughter of every firstborn in a country, and telling someone to sacrifice their own son to you” as evil
"Why didn't God stop the Holocaust?"
He did.
If god stopped the holocaust, then scraping roadkill off a tire is saving animals
Kid: suffers from cancer
Atheist: see? There's no God.
Kid: inexplicably recovers after much prayer
Atheist: that wasn't God! It was science we just can't explain.
Inexplicably? Do the doctors and nurses and scientists and technicians that treat the child just not exist?
@Woopor There are several cases in this very same playlist where doctors, nurses, scientists, and technicians couldn't find an explanation to the healings of their patients.
Everyone wants the exceptions to be the rule. A miracle would not be a miracle if they were common/the norm. Instead of demanding more miracles, we should instead wonder with thankful hearts that miracles happen at all. God owes man nothing. If He didn't save a single soul, He would be just in doing so.
I think this is 99% right. But grace is part of His perfect justice. God knows the perfect balance between justice and grace. He uses both justice and grace to maximize each other. We don't know what the balance should be because we don't have His infinite perspective. Grace was our only chance, that's true. But the grace was given in spades, so I think that can only be part of His justice.
Thanks for what you do!
Saint George himself was blessed with numerous incredible miracles but you could argue that those same miracles only prolonged his suffering. The point was to prove his faith and virtues in the face of adversity, not the power of miracles and maybe thats why it happens to some and not others.
A few thoughts:
Just because God doesn’t perform miracles for everybody doesn’t mean He doesn’t perform miracles for anybody.
God is not our genie.
No one deserves a miracle.
God offered us a world without suffering and evil, and we rejected it.
This world is not a theme park, it’s a school.
This world is not an end in itself, but a means to an end.
Life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we react to what happens to us.
God is not only good, He is _the_ Good.
He has promised those who love Him that He is working all things together for their good (Rom. 8:28).
Whether they get a miracle or not.
This world is not our home.
For those who believe, Heaven is our home.
Every day is one day nearer.
The best answer is the book of Job.
Suffering and evil exist because of our decisions. That God even bothers with what He does is evidence of His love.
Who decided a child would get a brain tumor?
@@ninjason57
We did, collectively.
@@DISTurbedwaffle918 I didn't exist when god was making cancer. Why blame me?
@@levongevorgyan6789
God didn't make cancer, we did.
@@DISTurbedwaffle918 No, god did. He's the creator of the universe and everything.
" perhaps this is the enemy's motive for creating a dangerous world, a place where moral issues really come to a point..." Your affectionate uncle Screwtape...😈
I thank you for your work and these last few segments on miracles. I've been waiting on one, and been frustrated, these came at the right time to remind me of the importance of somethings over others.
The atheist wants to live completely unshackled from God, then get angry when God doesn't do what they want.
Because God gave us free will, free will means we can be evil and harm others. Simple as that.
Basically "mysterious ways"
As far as I can tell, this video is basically a response to a variation of the problem of evil with the same response I usually hear from apologists that evil can serve some purpose of making us better people who are more empathetic and moral. If we take this to it's logical conclusion, even the Holocaust can be said to have improved humanity in some way. I think that the idea that all suffering can serve a purpose is debateable, but the primary objection that I have to this argument is that it implies that god can't otherwise improve humanity without causing tremendous suffering in the process which could mean that he's not actually omnipotent. Otherwise, if he could, why wouldn't he if we assume that he's truly omnibenevolent?
Love your videos man. Keep spreading the good news of the Lord
Do you ever do debates? I’d love to watch one
Ohhhhhh I see now. This is the question I was asking but basically if im understanding correctly, miracles happening doesnt change anything really about the problem of evil because it is just a net positive.
It remains that God's plan isnt playing favorites but just rather hard for us to understand because we dont have the wider picture.
Granted, I personally still remain skeptical of modern healings. As ive seen in the comments of previous videos in this series, there is valid reasons to be skeptical of the healings. Given most of those happenings would be rare but not impossible.
Evil? Like that in which we do daily?
For real we should not worship merciless but the God who dose them Jesus Christ
Do you believe that the same sort of evil will continue on in the afterlife?
I'd also like to point out that not every prayer is necessarily what you need so that's something to consider.
Miracles don't build character.
They don't? what are you basing this on?
how
They can if they're in the right context.
Building gratitude for example.
@@logicianbones ha. I was interacting with you on the "miracle infrequency" thread, and here I see you commenting here. Cool.
Looks like we agree on this one.
btw, the reason I said I may (or may not) circle back is because I've decided to experiment with turning OFF comments (via restriction mode). I couldn't tell you how many hours I wile away each week in back and forth YT exchanges. It's a lot.
Anyway, I probably won't get back on the other as I'm going to try to take a break from it. But have a good one bro.
John 9:1-4 ESV
[1] As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. [2] And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” [3] Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. [4] We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work.
What about animal suffering
Would animal suffering make the evidence we have for miracles disappear?
@@TestifyApologetics of course thats a really good point.
Miracles happen by faith, as in by letting God in to do it. If you say "change me Lord" but then consume sin you are doing the opposite of what you just asked
You could also argue there are miracles all around us. In a world where there is only darkness, light would seem like a miracle, and in a world where all injuries were instantly healed, that wouldn't seem like a miracle.
If God allows for evil to occur as an opportunity for growth to his children does that mean God designed the devil to provide this duality right from the start?
No, God didn't create Satan as already evil, Satan was good, but fell victim to pride.
@rightousnesspursuer6523 i didn't say Satan was inherently evil but he made the devil knowing what he would do. If he had not created the devil, man may have never fallen and been presented with temptations that God treats so crucial for us to experience.
@@yolkonut6851 are you suggesting God simply not have created the devil?
@@rightousnesspursuer6523 no. I never claimed anything like that
Respectfully, Is English your first language?
He should of just not made us, problem solved
that's like saying to your parents that you never should've been born
@@TestifyApologetics that too
Cool, neat.
Now is the time to edit your comment and confuse people
Oh lol so this is why.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether there is an intelligent designer that is beyond time and space, is also eternal and can do anything and everything at any time. What matters is that we keep learning and exploring the world around us rather than stuck with this mentality of "us vs them or atheism vs theism" There is definitely a lot out there that is beyond our comprehension and who knows maybe someday we will find it but what matters is that we keep questioning and exploring the unknown.
Yeah so god is powerfully enough to heal some guy’s guts but not powerful enough to not let wild animals rip apart children.
This is unbelievably stupid. 💀
That's potency error as I've called it. A lack of power doesn't at all follow from knowing why it's wrong to act on that power for reasons that flew over your head.
If God was performing miracles left and right, then they would no longer be miraculous.
Why would a higher frequency of occurrence make them less miraculous?
Because it would then be
a common occurrence like any other, losing value
Would gold be so expensive if we could find it everywhere?
@@yoggothemadgod6196 I wouldn't think it would be of any less value to the sick who are made well. But besides, diminished 'value' wasn't the claim anyway. The thing I'm asking is why should an increase in the frequency of miracles make them any less miraculous?
It is not the infrequency of healings & exorcisms that give these miracles their miraculous quality.
Mrk1:34
And he healed *many* that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out *many* devils.
In the first century, Jesus healed MANY people.
Mrk6:56
And whithersoever he entered, into villages, or cities, or country, they laid the sick in the streets, and besought him that they might touch if it were but the border of his garment: *and as many as touched him were made whole.*
It was no less miraculous than if Jesus had only healed a few. An abundance of miraculous healings doesn't militate against their being miraculous.
I just don't think the statement made by OP is true. I think there are other reasons why in our place & time we don't see miracles very often.
@@AnHebrewChild Problem with arguing that it's unrelated to rarity is that "miracle" means an action by God that works beyond natural law, but natural law is defined as what normally happens.
@@logicianbones I think that's a normal correlative but not a definition, per se, of 'natural' law, but since I'm interacting with a man named 'logicianbones,' I think I'll forebear any further argument.
Be blessed.
The particular views of this channel and most of its commentors make me slightly sad. I think the video was pretty good, but the overemphasis on free will is disappointing.
Everyone here seems to be saying that some evil isn't "in God's will." Well, why does it exist, then? If God wills against it, why can't he stop it?
The end result of these emotional views is that Christians end up being unable to answer a lot of the toughest questions like this when conversing with those of other worldviews.
I just read a commentor asking, what if a mother loses her child, gets depressed, commits suicide, and leaves the rest of her family to grieve? Most of the replies indicated that God wouldn't will such evil; it must be some form of accident or something.
No, all evil is predetermined/allowed by God. You say you can't see anything good coming out if the death of that child, but what if his father (ruined by grief) goes on to contribute to unimaginable good? Maybe he starts some foundation for children's health, or maybe all he does is be a good friend to a few people; but in doing so helps those people out of their depression, and eventually those people help bring dozens to know Christ and eternal peace?
What is lost? One child gets to leave this painful world early, one mother dies, and one father suffers a lot in his short earthly life. What is gained? Eternal paradise for dozens of souls, who go on to help even more reach this peace.
Yes, God allows evil.
"Everyone here seems to be saying that some evil isn't "in God's will." Well, why does it exist, then? If God wills against it, why can't he stop it?" Replying as I read (pardon for that, it's what I have time for), the Bible actually uses "God's will" in two different senses -- what he wants, and what he in his omnisciences realizes he has to allow.
Romans 9 says God "endures" evil so shows (if you presume, as is extremely-well-supported after thorough investigation) that the Bible doesn't contradict itself that the biblical answer is God doesn't WANT the evil, he knows why he HAS to allow it.
Also "can't" stop is what I've called potency error (if you mean that he lacks the raw power to stop it). Knowing it's morally wrong for reasons that fly over our heads (a type of "can't" unrelated to omnipotence) doesn't imply he can't as in is weak.
"I just read a commentor asking, what if a mother loses her child, gets depressed, commits suicide, and leaves the rest of her family to grieve? Most of the replies indicated that God wouldn't will such evil; it must be some form of accident or something." What do you mean by that? I read them as saying he doesn't WANT it. Not denying that he knows it's necessary to allow (the point of the vid).
To the rest, what you're saying is the end of Genesis defense -- what the evil intended for evil (and with natural evils, what the evil caused to naturally happen after God had to remove miraculous protections lest he endorse sin), God intended for good. I don't think that's opposed to what Testify is saying. Keep in mind to keep his videos short he can't endlessly clarify every statement.
The character building cope in nonsense. Sometimes bad stuff happens to people that is completely out of our control and nobody becomes "better". A mother can lose her baby, fall into depression and kill herself. What "greater good" has happened here, her parents and husband living in grief for the rest of their lives?
bUT GoD HaS TO ALlow EvIl to CReaTE GreaTER gOODS! If there is no evil in heaven and free will exists then obviously he doesn't need evil to create these goods. Are there people with courage in heaven? What about poor babies that die, they didn't have a chance to develop "courage", how do they get it in heaven? If God just gives them courage in their heavenly form then obviously he can give people these traits without them having to experience evil.
it's not nonsense, it's just not an all encompassing explanation. There's a lot of bad stuff that happens that is indeed out of our control. There is a lot of bad stuff that happens that is not the will of God, many things you listed. It is without question that some hardships we go through are indeed character building and in some cases our hardships allow us to be able to empathize with others in their hardships. I do not believe God allows someone to have cancer to build their character, but I do believe that those experiences can enable us to love and comfort our neighbors if they are in similar situations. Most suffering is just a simple result of a fallen world and whether you believe in that or not is irrelevant. If there is no God than all this suffering is perfectly normal and there is no solution to it.
This isn't what I'm saying. I don't think God is in the baby killing business. I think he can allow suffering and can bring good out of evil but I don't think he's the cause, that the world we live in is one of warfare that opposes the purposes of God. For a more developed theodicy that I'd endorse check out John Peckham's Theodicy of Love.
But the point is suffering isn't a defeater for the argument from miracles. You can say cope all you want but you have less answers than we do for the total sum of the evidence
There is nothing loving in setting yourself as a. Exemplar of fatherhood for all just to deny your help and favour to some while bestowing abundance of it to others no one would call such a figure loving nor a good father and sure it's all withing God decision his is sovereign after all but it's not us who called him father he himself wanted to be called that@@TestifyApologetics
I tend to agree that the top-priority answer in a full theodicy isn't "greater good" but to show why it's actually EVIL for God to do what skeptics are (in Dunning-Kruger ways) advising him to do, that it leads to worse downsides they hadn't thought through but the omniscient God can hardly join them in that failure to do. That said, greater goods can be involved for why that is! So to just blithely dismiss greater good as at all relevant is pretty irresponsible, no offense.
@@logicianbones i understand what you mean however it's hard to justify this hidden greater good
if I as a parent tell my child that I will always be there for him then let people do terrible medical experiments with excruciating pain involved and not even informing the child what are the ultimate would you call this a loving father who cares and is always there for his child?
You can believe whatever you want. If the problem of evil isn't persuasive to you that God might not be onmi-x, then that's fine. But my understanding is that you were trying to persuade atheists to believe in God rather than excuse your own beliefs to yourself and other theists.
the video is full of memes it makes me sometimes not take seriously the content
It's called edutainment. For those who won't watch dryer vids.
Gotta get the young’uns indoctrinated without them noticing somehow
You're working miracles out of objectional comments that match what you also talk about in "5 Modern Miracles That Show Christianity is True" for anyone who hasn't seen that video.