Will running on a generator damage your house? Inverter vs standard vs standby
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- čas přidán 3. 08. 2022
- We take a look at both portable and installed generators and talk about the difference in a regular and an inverter generator and how each can power your house. re-upload due to technical difficulties.
Nothing in this video is sponsored, the products in this video are simply the ones we own or had access to.
If you are interested in the generators and other items shown, you can use our amazon links below, using these can help support the channel at no cost to you.
Generator: amzn.to/3oUcifo
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50amp inlet: amzn.to/3zVnm1Y
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Please note this is a simplification of THD as it relates to generators, this varies greatly depending on the type of load and how linear it is. THD is not simply a change in the frequency of the output. However the decoupling of an inverter and it’s digital nature is better able to handle the variations that can result in harmonics in the system.
Again, all these items were purchased by us for our own use, no sponsors in this video. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I have a 20K Generak, house is heated and cooking is propane. It will power everything to include A/C here in the desert. Cost-10000 with installation (4 years ago). Love it
A very comprehensive presentation. Different strategies and the full range of options. Very useful.
Finally! thank you for a clear explanation! I was just tired of those "It's bad because it's bad" explanations. Thank you for taking the time!
Excellent video… well done. Very clear explanation which is not an easy task. Thank you for the education. Keep up the good work.
Great video, I watched this, already knowing most of this but it's nice to reinforce what you already know. Very informative video my good sir!
Interesting , Thank You . A fine reminder that there are a lot of options out there and a lot of things to consider. We and each of us must understand what do we NEED , How much Money do we have , how much Room do we have . How do we pay for not only the generator, but we must also maintain the system .
Best video yet on temporary power .
Subscribed! I've been dealing with a standard portable 5500w a lot lately (Onan RV) and trying to optimize it for our full-time liveaboard lifestyle now.
Not the best solution, so we're looking at solar, upgrading genset, etc.
Clear explanation with all of the relevant details. Thank you!
Nice video years back all i used was a light globe between phases of different generators to put them in phase, once done, they are locked together. cool you can do the inverter type easy.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. There are always someone wo has an opinion that maybe different or nit-picks terminology. I am an engineer also and agree with everything you shared. Not many people will go as far and in so much detail trying to may technical issues understandable for the layman trying to solve a common problem with power outages. Again great video!
Really nice comprehensive presentation!
Fantastic video! I really appreciate how you broke down the differences between standby generators vs portable generators vs portable inverter generators. Thank you!!!!!!
The only question that I didn't get answered from your video is regarding dirty power. How dirty is the power on a stand-by generator like the 16KWh Generac in your video?
The stand-by generators are usually around the 5% THD mark and are pretty stable on voltage and frequency, especially the bigger generators. This should not cause any harm to the equipment in your house, but certain devices may not like it. Such as cheaper computer UPS systems. With many computer battery backups, unless the power is as clean as the utility or better, they will not switch over to it and will run on the battery until it is depleted. A true online UPS will work fine though. So a standby is generally good, can have a lot of power output, and has better power quality than a standard portable generator but not quite as good as a good inverter or the power company.
At LAST!!!!!! Hands down the clearest explanation of why my standard generator did not work with my furnace during our recent power outage. Bravo! and Thank You!!
the kubota GL11000 11,000 watts 16.5 hp is the best generators that can accully run 100% everything in the house include furnace plus runs 24 hours with out refeuling up wich im planing on getting wich plus uses same 16.5 hp kubota tractor filters wich gonna cost me $8,600
A furnace shouldn't draw that much power. Ignition for the flame (fleapower), and a blower or water pump. An oil furnace has a fuel pump while a gas furnace doesn't.
Some furnaces are picky about how the ground is connected. This is a separate issue from the dirty power issue described in the video.
@@joewoodchuck3824 Unless it’s all electric
Best video like this that I have seen! Great job
😂
I have a champion 8125 wats generator it powers 98% of my house two thumbs up. Lots of power had it for two years. No complaints Best investment ever
Just to be clear, as an electrician for 28 years, I can say this, with 100% certainly. All of your stand by ( fixed generators with auto x-fer switches make less than 5% thd, as wel as some of the portable generators, for instance, the sewing house WGen20000c 28,000 surge watts and 20,000 running watts. The brand new Generac gp15,500 & the 18,000 watt, is under 5% thd. The SENCI(ai-power sua 15000ec/ 15,000 watt surge 12kw running watts is less than 5% thd,, great color pulsar 12kw surge 9,500 watt dual fuel is less than 5% etc etc etc. I would also like to point out the obvious. Even if a large portable generator is rated at, 19%THD for example, IT ACTUALLY STILL MAKES less than 5% THD (Total Harmonic distortion when it’s NOT being pushed to hard. Also. The truth about THD AND “sensitive electronics flat screens etc isn’t true 100% I.e- all my game consoles, lap tops flat screen smart TV’s these have no effect on them when the circumstances of use and the pull are paced on the generator. However a 95-100% efficient furnace they’re extraordinary sensitive to clean power. However I rarely hear of this , save for 1 time it did! It was t helping the generator I hooked up was being pressed to its max! and the winter here in NY (upstate/corning NY) last yr. So all I did to remedy this was let him borrow my pure sine wave 3,000 running watt converter and powered it with the generator and that in turn ran the generator flawlessly. After that I pitched a ne from my (wholesale) manufacturer and bought him one…. 8,000 surge watt 5,000 running watt pure sine for his furnace and we ran a few hook ups to his computer and his grandsons room for his Xbox and PlayStation. So for all 3 of them and running them through t the other 2 rooms he only paid 135 dollars for all 3 they are big name industrial w/7 yr warranty and retail for 600-800 depending on the day and deal they’re having. So in short there are big portable generators out there that are 5% or less THD. In short the difference between a portable, stand by and inverters is the fact the inverters are far more expensive dollar per watt and there’s no generator head, they have an inverter attached to them that’s it. However you can buy a dark grey color PULSAR 12,000 surge and 9,500 running watts are on sale for 699.99 now they never go over 899.99 and they’re dual fuel also so gas and LP. I buy these at wholesale brand new direct from the manufacturer. Which means Westinghouse, pulsar, duromax etc etc are all made and bought by me directly through them.. thanks for reading the comment folks I’ll have a CZcams channel of my own very soon regarding generators, how to install them and letting everyone know the real pricing of these before retailers mark them up. And plenty on electrical/generator electrical, proper easy LEGAL hook ups plus I’ll be selling wire, conduit etc etc etc. thanks for your time
There is a lot to unpack here.I will start by saying good luck on your new channel, my advise would be to get a good power quality meter and use this in your videos if you have access to a wide range of units, I do believe the results would probably surprise you. There is an extremely good generator/small engine channel on here named James Condon (www.youtube.com/@jcondon1)
In most of his genset repairs he will test the output with a Power Quality meter and has recently purchased a steady-state Linear load bank to get some very consistent metering and testing accomplished. I did not use my power quality analyzer in this video because I genuinely don't have access to standard generators anymore, as I sold them off when inverter models became affordable for the power output I needed. I will say that from everything I have seen, 5% and less THD is quite rare on portable units, you will usually see somewhere north of 15%. now this is not to be confused with voltage and frequency deviation, those are generally what you see having problems at higher loads and few people have the equipment to monitor THD with a full linear load.
As to "sensitive" electronics and THD being "Not True" I will see your 28 Years of wiring experience and raise you a degreed electrical engineer that worked in high end audio component failure analysis and in utility power generation and distribution ;). I can tell you that THD creating problems with electronics is 100% true. Now, this is not usually seen immediately and not often while the generator is connected, so most people don't even associate the two. It could be something having an erratic behavior or simply a refrigerator that died after 12 year when it otherwise would have lasted 16.5 years. zero people are going to associate that with running on a generator here and there over the years. what usually happens with things like switch mode power supplies is that the input filter caps deteriorate faster (especially lesser quality low temp ones ) and MOVs degrade. eventually you either get full failure of the power supply caps or simply increased ripple and less available reserve current on the power stage.
I actually had to commission a server in an apartment at one point and after building it up it would crash within 24hours every single day, even with ECC ram I kept getting ram errors. Memtests were all fine, replacement ram sticks good, Very high quality power supply too. finally the power input was looked at and I found that someone in the complex, on the same taps, was using something seriously non linear with obviously horrible power factor. whenever it was used the whole line looked like garbage. After putting the server on a double-conversion UPS it never had a single crash the remainder of its service life. And all of that was on utility power.
There are definitely some generators out there that are not very expensive that do have good THD. though this is such a big deal that the manufacturer will often hit you in the face with their marketing about it. Whole home standby generators are usually large enough to do well in this regard, I never said you had to have an inverter generator to get clean power. I assure you, the utility company is not using a giant inverter stage after all. But for smaller generators, the inverters are most of the time the cleanest power.
now, a cheap inverter can also have bad power, you can end up with poor PF handling and bad waveform generation especially if they are using an unbiased push pull transistor design, then you will have garbage at the zero-cross point.
one thing that puzzled me, I am really not sure how you connected a 3000w inverter to a generator. Most generators that have a DC output will only have a small capacity of rectified power for things like battery charging, where a 3000W inverter would take over 250 Amps of current at full load and would not be happy without a battery buffer. You certainly could use a double conversion UPS on pretty much any generator to clean up the power, but the cost of a 3000W unit would be thousands of dollars and you might as well buy a better genset.
The film industry has long had to work with these problems, that's why they usually bring in big generators from companies like whacker-neuson and will run large power bistro rigs all around a set. For smaller location work, they are most often using something like a Honda EU7000 inverter generator. For a good read on the problems they face with generators and non-linear loads, I find Guy Holts articles to be a very good read. Also a great read for general information on power quality. (www.screenlightandgrip.com/images/Protocol_LEDPowerQuality_Part_1.pdf)
Great informational video, Thank You!!
Great video. Thank you for sharing.
I always appreciate your video quality:)
Thank you, always trying to improve.
Excellent video! Thanks!!
I have that same 16kw unit here in Florida. Got it cheap brand new at Lowe’s since it was a special order return, never used. The nice thing about that unit is that it has hydraulic lifters,no need to adjust like the other models during that time. Now the brand new models have hydraulic lifters though… Oh it will power my 2800 sq ft house easy even with the AC. The trick is to install a micro soft start on the AC unit. About 200 to 300 bucks. It requires less energy to start the AC system, therefor the generator has zero bog down. Really love the 16kw unit as well since it’s very fuel efficient. Great video BTW!
When I was running my new generac for the 25 hour break in, when the a/c kicked in, it really bogged the generator down, and caused our lights to dim, and my UPS battery to light up and beep once. After everything smoothed out, the battery light went out, and everything was fine. When I spoke to the dealer, they said I needed to install an a/c soft start. I agreed, before even reading your message. I'm glad that you spoke about it, because now I know they aren't just trying to sell me something else.
if that set is the 800 CC unit (fairly new) then you have hydraulic lifters. If it has the 1.0 liter engine then you need to adjust the valves.
Dang, this was thorough and helpful.
Generators that use a Capactor or Brushless Series (the Worst) to control the Voltage output yes the Voltage can Spike Very Badly , Always Buy Generator with a AVR I have been using a High Quality 7000W Running Watts Generator with a AVR for many yes and have had no problems LCD TV , Frig , 3 ton AC unit .
Hello Dan Ray. I’m Mike i. I bought a AiPowerGXS7100iRD. What is AVR please/thank you?
@@mikeienuso1926 Automatic Voltage Regulator, on Honda gens.
To add a tangent to your research - I'd like to add more solar cells to my home in AZ but keep them off grid. They would charge a battery system that can be used as household backup but also to power some degree of charging for the 74kw car. Include applications of smart circuit breakers or panels. Proceed! Extra credit included for this, or perhaps credit toward your dissertation!
I was going to buy a generac. I made a wonderful pad for it. when I got the generator it was all rusty inside and I took it back to Lowe's. they ordered me another one in that was just as Rusty as the first one! turns out they had a flood in the warehouse. all the control springs and even aluminum parts were corroding. controls for the gas valve corroded. and this was going to be set up next to a 500 gallon propane. no thank you I got my $6,500 back from Lowe's. I invested 3500 and solar panels batteries and inverter. all my refrigerators run on solar all the time. I've never had to buy propane for the generator. I turned that massive 4 ft by 8 concrete block into the foundation for a nice little greenhouse.
Great job, I understand the spliting and twice the amparge on the neutral leg, myquestion is my RV has 50A hookup, some campground pedastals have only 20A and 30A receptcals, I have seen adaptors that have a 20A plug and a 30A plug to a 50A so then I can plug my RV into, so if I take my DMM and check for 120V at the 50A end then that would put too much amparge on the campground neutral?
Hi! I see many videos where they build a sound and rain proofed casing for portable inverter generators. Isn't that a possibility? That makes them somewhat a permanent installation. I am thinking of the new Genmax 10500 ietc tri-fuel. What are your thought?
Another reason for home generators to disconnect from the grid, besides the obvious one of lineman’s safety, is that if you do backfeed into the grid, your little generator is going to be trying to power your neighborhood. It won’t be able to carry the load and may end up being damaged
Hi I have a champion rv ready generator shows it produces 60 hertz how do I add an inverter to it
The one thing I can add to this, is the cost of using your Natural Gas. After Ida, we went 19 days w/o electricity. It was miserable HOT and muggy. We used a regular generator, and had it hooked up to our house. We could run everything but the a/c and desk top computers. So if you weren't in front of a fan, you were miserable.
Other then the normal maintenance and hour cool down in the morning and once in the evening, my husband had to spend hours in line for more gas. We had enough cans for approximately 5 days. There was no guarantee that when you finally made it to a pump, the gas station didn't run out of gas, and no truck in sight. It cost us approximately $500.00 for that 19 days. My aunt has a Generac. She didn't have to do anything. Her bill for that 19 days, from the gas company was also about $500.00. So either way, you're going to pay...
the kubota GL11000 is way to go wich runs 100% everything in the house wich why im gonna get one for $8,600
as a 25 year generator tech, there's no reason you can't run a desk top PC on a portable gen set. The internals are already on a regulated power supply and will be fine on AC power from 100 - 140 volts at 50 or 60 Hz. Most fridges will also cool enough in 3-4 hours to hold food for another 6-8 hours if the door stays closed. If you set up a schedule to run the set in shifts of 3-4 hours each you can cut your fuel costs in half. You just have to group your electrical use to fit during your run schedule. After all, most people are just using it for the fridge, well pump, and some lights. TV, computer, and other small stuff is hardly any draw, and usually not all day or night.
After growing up and living in hurricane territory all of my life and using portable generators; I can tell you most of this is BS. Modern standard generators are absolutely safe to run the whole house. Most people have standard generators and you never hear horror stories about how their electronics blew out. You're only paying for a quiter generator when you buy an Inverter.
After getting an electrical engineering degree; I can tell you no it’s not. And no, your house was not full of computers in the 1970s and 80s either. A lot of damage will not be instantaneous, it degrades components within the power filtering stage or makes it through in such a way as to degrade silicone inside onboard ICs. The manufacturing of chips is getting progressively smaller, using very small micron processes. All this means that the saturation and breakdown voltages and currents are lower than ever, so things are more susceptible to outside interference. Power from ye ole construction site genset will not even power most non-online or non-double conversion UPS battery backups. The standard bypass ups’s don’t recognize the power as stable enough and will just stay on battery until they die. The reason you don’t hear “horror stories” is because the causation is not an immediate “ I connected my generator and now all my stuff is broken” things not working at full performance or being erratic over time is a lot harder to notice.
I'll just say that 2k sounds like a lot for a week of emergency power until you compare it to a hotel for a family of 4 for a week. That doesn't even touch the other issues you could return to if your sump pump wasn't functioning, your pipes freeze, your pets (like fish) die or your house grows mold and mildew. For most people, the worst can be avoided by having a small backup system that provides power to critical systems.
It comes down to what you want versus what you need and what you can afford.
I would suggest people invest in a few UPS for your electronics that you use after. They can be a power cleaner for you if you use a generator that's not great at stable power.
UPS circuitry is related to that of an inverter generator except that a UPS often generates a square wave output while an inverter generator should be close to a sine wave. I don't see why a non inverter generator should be very dirty compared to a conventional one. Theoretically, conventional home generators should work the same as commercial power. Wire coils and magnetic fields work the same everywhere. Be advised however that commercial power isn't particularly clean itself. Along with any of us, there's a great multitude of other customers sharing the same source who are doing who knows what to the power lines. I've looked at actual commercial power waveforms on oscilloscopes and it rather loosely resembles a sine wave.
An individual generator waveform is only affected by YOUR devices. Digital equipment and anything that uses a switching power supply (not everything is happy with running on a square wave source) are well known offenders of undesirable side effects. If anything seems "dirty" look there first.
@@joewoodchuck3824 very good points. Especially if your neighbor is using an old transformer welder, for example, introducing all kinds of noise into the circuit.
On the other hand, we used to run the power system with multiple connected spinning equipment (steam turbines, hydro generators, synchronous condensers, etc), and the inertia of all that mass (especially the hydro turbines - they run “slow” physical speeds compared to steam turbines - but the same electrical speed - which are REALLY, really heavy) keep the system very close to 60.00hz, unless the pressures on the grid are in the emergency range and dragging either voltage or frequency into load-shedding. I’ve seen that happen. It wasn’t pretty.
I’m retired now, so I don’t know how well the static generators (solar panels and batteries), and lower torque wind generators are working out… A lot less connected spinning mass, that’s for sure
@@DanielinLaTuna
I'm very experienced in electronics both as a career and a hobby and static is rarely mentioned in the circles I run with. Such charges can be dealt without much fuss however.
I'm curious about your climate. Dry? Windy?
@@joewoodchuck3824 , I worked for Los Angeles, both in high voltage grid operations (long distance transmission) and within the City limits in lower voltage distribution.
I see in retrospect, static was a poor choice of words. What I mean is generation with no attached spinning mass. In the industry we differentiate rotating equipment from non-rotating. Solar farms, for example, don’t have inertia. The two DC transmission lines that come into the city from the Pacific Northwest and from Utah also behave like static generation.
The reason heavy spinning mass is important to the power system is that events on the grid generally affect frequency and voltage. The connected capacitors and reactors (coils) will automatically insert or be removed to try to support voltage. But only rotating equipment can halt frequency decay; they do it by giving up some of their inertia (slow down) until their governors and Automatic Generation Control (AGC) react to restore frequency.
I wished you talked about the THD of whole house generators, but overall, a very good video. My thoughts:
If you're older than 45 (aka - I'm too old for this shit!) and you have the money, get a whole house generator. Running portable generators on gas is a pain in the ass! Assuming your gas station is actually pumping gas, you still have the issue of actually getting the gas to your house (trust me, your car will smell like gas after), pouring the gas into the generator without spilling any or getting any on your body (won't happen) and dealing with the left over gas (you can put that in your car, so not that bad).
Sure, you'll have $2K worth of propane just sitting there doing nothing, but here's the way to think about it:
* if you leave and go to a hotel, you know damn well they're going to charge $300 a night. A 7 night stay and there's your $2K right there
* Will you actually be able to even leave? The whole reason why you lost power is probably because the weather is terrible. If you were in Buffalo, NY for the latest 6 foot snow blizzard they got, you weren't going anywhere (and staying alive)
* What's the value of everything in your freezer? For me, I'd say $400 easily. Do you have a few cuts of filet mignon for that special occasion? Chicken wings for the Super Bowl? A little bit of venison your friend gave you from the last time they went hunting? All of the tomatoes, ground up into sauces and put into ziplock bags, each ready to go and feed your family. Never mind all of the stuff like pizzas, veggies, ice cream, etc., you have to feed your family. If you're lucky enough to make it to a hotel, all of that stuff is gone if you lose power for more than 18 hours.
* Do you have fish? Great, you go to a hotel and they die! Parrots? Dogs/cats?
I guess my point is, that $2K in propane, sitting there, waiting to be used gives you peace of mind, and I don't mind it at all. Learn to be smart:
* get a smaller, 12kw or 14 kw generator with load shedding
* break out a portable AC window unit during a power outage. No need to freeze the whole house
* in the winter, all you need is heat, water and a couple of lights. Everything else is a luxury
A giant, 22kw or even bigger generator is fine, if you've got the money. I think 12kw or 14 kw is just fine, allows the critical lines to run and keeps you in your house.
also add the cost of a union plumber they dont come cheap if your water lines bust
That’s right!!
No one’s called out generec on this topic!!
if you do some shopping, you may find the difference in cost between a 12 Kw and a 22 Kw isn't all that much, in the big picture. The cost to run gas, run electric, and prep / locate the set are all the same, labor wise. Yes, larger wires cost money, but only a small percentage of the total job. The unit cost might be $2k more to go with a 22 Kw.... and fuel consumption is more related to your draw than the gen size. IOW, you don't have to use it all so the gen could have an easier life. If you already use propane for the other appliances, so much the better.
Why I have a 26kw Generator that runs on propane. Propane fuel doesn’t degrade. I’m all electric. No gas. Automatic Transfer switch. Self tests once per week.
Or buy a portable generator the runs on nat gas.
Hello D.A. Thx for the reply. Yes I’ll put a type 2 SPD on side of CB Panel.
Now My BURNHAM Gas Boiler is Hardwired from panel to an on/off switch to Boiler. Does this make sense to put a GFCI 15amp Rocker/Receptacle in its place with a 12/3 3prong pigtail. Then when utility goes down I unplug from that receptacle, then plug that plug into a UPS then plug the other end into Receptacle/Rocker, then turn on the Genset with less than 3 THD, now my boiler has a better chance to see Clean power from Genset to UPS to Boiler/Zone Valves/ Circulating pump. Will that work to protect Boiler from unclean power. If you say yes then I will buy other inexpensive UPS’s for my FIOS “ONT”, Router to keep WiFi connected. Just run my Sump pump 3/4hp, 2 Refrigerators and LED lighting. It’s a
AiPower GXS7100iRD
duel fuel. Costco$999 on sale.
Please reply again about the setup i hopefully was clear on. I’m old and trying to learn and keep my wife warm in the cold weather. All the best to you and channel. Mike ienuso. Again thx for the other reply, very helpful.
For things like the internet or computers, a UPS is great to keep them running for a short time until a minor outage is over or you can power up with a generator. However I would not recommend one for "cleaning the power". This is because the only UPS that really cleans power, and works with a generator, are what is known as true-online or double conversion UPS's. These can be very expensive (as much as your generator ) and they are meant for servers and other critical loads that are also backed up by automatic generators. A regular UPS is usually just a standby ups and will just send whatever power is coming in, back out. With these types of UPS, if the power is dirty enough to need cleaning, then it is actually too dirty for the ups and the ups will just stay on its battery until it dies. A double conversion is always running on its battery, while simultaneously charging it, effectively generating its own clean output at all times, this is why they are expensive, but also have to have batteries replaced every few years to stay healthy. I would say to just trust your inverter generators output. Most power supplies are designed with fairly good filtering and controls that are converted to DC inside the unit anyway.
Thank you
I have a GP6500 from Generac and it comes with an automatic voltage regulator built in... When I load it the hertz changes a little if the load is heavy, but the voltage output is pretty consistent. I only notice a spike when I throw something like 4000W instantly and that is where people get into problems and that is outside of a whole discussion of load balancing.
The FREQUENCY can change a little when the load changes, especially as the load approaches capacity. one to one and a half cycles either way is not usually noticeable. The problem is that when you drop a heavy load on it, the intertia of the generator is not enough to keep up the speed until the inrush has passed. You say you add a 4000W load. That may be the constant running load, but the "inrush" or instant load of an inductive load (motors - refrigerators, etc) is much greater. The starting current is momentarily much higher than the current when running. That is why you need to read the specs very carefully. The generator may say it is a 4KW generator, but you need to see what the max starting (inrush) load is versus the running load is.
@@The_DuMont_Network The 6500 is a 6500 running watt generator and has an inrush rating of 8750.......I have the older one which is better on the rating and does not have that co-sense garbage.
@@The_DuMont_Network If your gen isn't large enough to supply your needs, you'll just burn up the gen/hse wiring/appliances. Best to get a big one that can handle everything .
@@dmcd7333 You mean LRA ? [locked rotor amps?]
@@georgepruitt637 I do not run both A?C units or the wather heater.. mainly all lights, fridges, and laptops. If I need to run the A/C I usually run the upstairs and it also cools the downstairs . Only used during Hurricanes other than monthly loads to keep the generator maintenance and heads good.
An AC alternator or generator produces a sine wave output. With inverters as described, DC is electronically transformed to AC. This is done by producing a square wave output with enough steps to MIMIC a sine wave. Less expensive DC to AC converters produce in general dirty power, unless THD is less than 3%. THD is the culprit that I relate as spikey noise which is not the same as overall voltage or frequency flucuation IMO.
If you ever have chance, check out James Condon's channel. He fixes used generators as a hobby and he has tested Honda generators, that with an oscilloscope, produces a pretty good replicated sine wave. Typical open frame generators, when unloaded, produce a fairly noisy sine wave and under load, produce a fairly noisy distorted sine wave. If I could afford a Honda EU7000is I would have one.
Thanks for sharing your expertise & knowledge!!
Recently I got a 50 amp inlet installed, a gas meter tie-in, and a Firman tri-fuel generator. According to their site, the THD is between 11% and 14%. This can run my entire house without issue including fridge, deep freezer, AC and/or furnace. I purposely didn't turn on my stove or oven or computers, as I probably wouldn't use them in a blackout. I also don't wanna take any chances of the computers having issues. The downsides are true. Lugging that heavy beast of the garage is a pain, and also connecting that thick power cord from the generator to the house is a pain. Upside is the natural gas hookup is so convenient. I haven't had to use it for real yet, and I hope I don't have to.
Have you checked that your furnace and fridge can actually run correctly on 14% THD?
@@percyfaith11 Yes. They worked fine. My fridge and furnace are 08 and 09 for what that is worth.
@@SeanBaker thanks for the answer Sean. My fridge is 2021 and my furnace was put in this year and is high efficiency. Neither one will operate with my old Coleman generator. I'm not really sure what the THD on that generator is. But I'm pretty sure that's the problem.
It is a good idea to run that generator once a month for at least five minutes. Add a load to it to test output. There is nothing worse than having an emergency and the generator will not start or produce power.
@@Subgunman I really should do that!
Very informative video thanks. I have a 22KW Generac here in Houston TX, frequent outages due to weather and its been great. We are connected to natural gas so no problems with fuel supply. Have ran as long as 10 days during an outage, shut the unit down every 2 to 3 days check the oil and fire it right back up. To be able to stay in your home, not have all food spoil and avoid the cost of a hotel the generator is the way to go. I am looking into a soft start for A/C I notice the occasional dimming of some lighting when our 4 ton central A/C kicks on while under generator load. No problems with appliances, computers (on UPS) etc.
Actually, you should buy a hard-start kit for your ac, it reduces startup time with a high capacitance capacitor that reduces initial current draw on your power source. As an HVAC tech, this is what we do when the dimming lights are a nuisance. The capacitor stores a large charge, then dumps it into the compressor, which is what makes your lights dim the most. $30-45 if you install it yourself. Just ensure you size the HS kit correctly.
@@craigbraswell4269 Had one installed 2 weeks ago, thanks.
No, a soft start is what you want to install if you have generators that have sags during AC start ups. It helps the generator with surges, and helps the AC compressor by not dropping the starting voltage as much, (which is what causes the increased starting current, causing the generator frequency to kneel and the generator voltage to drop) which is what causes your lights to dim.
@@bobbygene8274 Agree! The soft start is an awesome addition.
So question concerning "shared neutral" circuits. I have no tandem breakers (house was built prior to tandem breakers being code), but I know where my MWCB's are and what they serve. I plan on using only 120V inverter to feed house power. As long as I make sure I don't use both circuits of a shared neutral, there should not be an issue...correct?
And secondly, must I switch off all 240V breakers when going 120v same phase? Can anything be harmed if a double pole breaker is still on but only running 120v same phase on both legs?
Technically as long as the load on a shared neutral doesn’t exceed the neutral rating, you are fine. It’s just along the lines of protecting a wire by being careful rather than using a circuit breaker. So to be safe it’s best to not turn them on, or only turn on one. When starting up from a generator I would turn off all breakers and then only turn on the ones you know you need, just to be safe and avoid unnecessary loads on the generator. So I wouldn’t turn on the 240 breakers, but it really shouldn’t hurt things, as anything that needs 240 just wont run. But you could have some devices that have 120v controls if they are a L1,L2,N,G Wiring. So you could have something like a thermostat that turns on and thinks it’s controlling the AC unit, but the compressor wont actually turn on.
@@DemonicAnimatronic Thank you for the reply.
use a qualified electrician to keep everybody safe.
I'm looking for a portable Inverter Gen. As have high tech furnace was looking at this but gas tanks small & would like 7500 running on Gas any other suggestion Reliability of most importance Champion Power Equipment DH Series 8750/7000-Watt Open Frame Inverter,
I do like my champion generators and I will say I hold them in higher standing than some of the predator or wen models. However I do have the luxury of having two and with my future system plans could function with just one if needed, so I have a bit of a safety net. I chose them because of the features and reviews for the price. If reliability was my highest priority and I could afford it, I would get a Honda or Yamaha inverter, though for the price of that you could probably get two of the model you mentioned and have a backup. As long as they are maintained properly and not mistreated I think most any reputable model that has the features and output you want will do fine. I do think that the Hondas are probably more reliable, but the critical failure point would likely be the inverter module and that’s not something that can really be worked on but rather replaced. So again, if you are looking for less expensive, the champions have been great for me, if you are doing something where being without power is not an option, get two. If you want the best and understand that anything can have problems, get the Honda.
I have 26kW Generac that powers 2 full house AC units and everything else with no problem. Runs on natural gas and just save us during last hurricane with no power for 7 days
I would love to see the sag from a, say, 4 ton ac starting up. If your lights are dimming, you're getting a significant voltage drop.
The point of which being is it worth describing line service as +- 3% if the actual voltage to your house might fluctuate more at 25% when high loads kick in.
Even the guardian you got that still a lot newer than mine. My guardian is 28 years old still works wonderful I won’t trade it for nothing in the world. Can you find me the only repair I haven’t done to it in 28 years all without 11 batteries, 6 set of brushes
I also don't use the auto function of the Generac. Manual only. When I know my solar is getting low, I pop it on for 1.5 hours only. I use a cheap trickle charger to keep the battery charged.
I paid $35 for the trickle charger instead of tying it to any power that would drain by charging the battery, instead of thousands of $ for the materials and labor of tying it to the grid.
There is some contradiction here. The real issue is most likely with motors and other devices that operate directly on the incoming current and also rely upon the frequency of the line voltage. So, if your refrigerator has a computer, wifi, etc., that will run on an internal switching supply and would not be as affected as say your compressor. Overall, yes, the quality of the incoming power is definitely to be taken seriously.
@kennethpayne7547
0 seconds ago
I had a 16 K Generac whole home generator that went out, I would like to use a 10,000 watt Firman portable generator in its place. 1) how would I manually shut off the power from the grid during a power outage and use the portable generator at the transfer box? 2) I would be using the Firman for outlets in the home only, does this sound like a do able solution? $1000 vs $10,000 I would manually do the disconnection and reconnection over the disconnection done automatically. Thank you for your input.
Nice
Yes you can get parallel inverters but you will pay about double or more per watt. The new generation generators by Westinghouse (which are also tri fuel capable) are packed with power to maintain the entire house including a 5 ton AC and it will cost less than an inverter with half or less the wattage. Inverters have their place but for home back up, the generators is the way to go... My $.02 cents.
What a generator first starts up it produces more power than it actually is rated for Generator. She’ll always be allowed to run about five minutes before you make the connection to the Generator if it is a manual connection or have your generator company delay the connection by five minutes.
5 minutes is not really necessary, but I would give it a solid 30 - 60 seconds to warm up. (the time it takes to walk inside and flip breakers) Also, at least 3 minutes without load to cool down after a run.
How do we know if we have these "tandem breakers" that need to NOT be activated on generator power?
It will be a breaker that is tied together just like a 240v breaker, and if your labels are good, it would show that rather than a 240v appliance (heating, water heater, dryer, range etc) that it was sending power to 120v outlets (kitchen island etc) basically any tandem breaker (tied together) in your panel that isn’t feeding a 240v device is most likely a shared neutral. Beyond that you would have to look at the wiring unfortunately.
@@DemonicAnimatronic I have a couple of tandem breakers (single size, not double) with two small switches (15a each). I had my electrician look them over but he didn't say there was any problem with using them on generator power.
@@uncensoredpilgrims if you have a 240v generator even a shared neutral is fine, it’s only if you are putting in 120v in phase to both sides of the panel that is a problem. And if your breaker is single size and not double it may not be shared neutral. Only thing you can do is listen to your electrician as they have seen the panel first hand.
@@DemonicAnimatronic Yes, It's a 240v generator.
Just for clarification, when you say the 240V on a generator is not out of phase, you mean on paired inverter generators only right? a 240V open frame generator should not have this issue as L1 and L2 should be out of phase to produce 240V between them.
Yes, if the generator says it outputs 240v and is not a European market model then it should be 120v on L1 and 120v l2 out of phase with each other. (Europe has 230v between hot and neutral, and 50hz) with the parallel kit for the 120v generators, it still outputs 120v just with double the current, so to wire the 4 wire outlets, they are splitting the same wire to both hots and not giving 240v. In summary lol a 240v outlet on an open frame inverter generator should be out of phase 240v and not have the same issues with overloading shared neutral.
My generator has a 120/240 volt outlet. I assume it will just use both L1 and L2 and I won’t have any issues either? My electrical knowledge is very limited
We decided to get the Generac. I'm still stressed about it. I'm running it now for the 25 hour break in. When the a/c kicks on, you can tell, but then it smooths out. They do install a house surge protector. My problem is I'm worried about my computer. I do have my computer plugged into a nice surge, which is plugged in my ups surge protector battery. Every time the a/c kicks on, the generac speeds up, for a lack of a better description. My ups battery lights up and peeps one time. I'm hoping this is not a bad thing.
your computer has a regulated power supply so all the internals run on 12 volts DC... and the input voltage can vary from 100 - 140 volts at 50 or 60 Hz. The reason your UPS beeps is it reacts VERY fast to minor variations in power, which will happen with smaller "portable" gen sets under heavy loads. (typical 5-7 Kw units)
@@rupe53 Hi :) and Thank You :) So you are saying I should be ok, concerning my computer? When I mentioned it to my generac dealer, they came out and tested it and said what I was experiencing was normal. They told me that sometimes there are problems with the a/c starting up. In that case they will install a 'soft start' thingie for the a/c. He didn't think I needed one, and that I wouldn't notice much difference if I wanted one. At the cost of it, I'm happy, but I was willing to pay for it, had I needed it.
@@desertdee1 ... the cheaper way to get some relief on an older AC unit is to ask your AC dealer to install a hard start kit. (Super Start kit?) It will basically knock the start load down, but not as much as a soft start.... but way cheaper.
Anything you love, should ALWAYS be placed on a good quality UPS, period. Be it your 85" flat screen, computer, etc. End of story. Surge suppressors do not work for voltage sags.
I enjoyed your video. I live in South Florida. I see a lot of people having these very expensive automatic generators installed. They are great units, but for the amount of outages we have, I believe a decent sized inverter generator is a much wiser choice. They're much quieter and use less fuel plus cleaner power. I have my inverter 4 years, and we have had no real power outages.
I think the reason people install automatic ones is that they don’t want to deal with getting them plugged in, etc. they want the power to go out and it turn it. An inverter generator won’t do that. My parents for example chose the automatic and I chose the portable, more fuel efficient
And a stand by unit runs in gas not gasoline so you don't need to buy fuel. During hurricane Sandy you couldn't get gas for DAYS up here
@@kirkstinson7316 - I have Honda portable inverter generators. I get non-ethanal gas for them when we get hurricane warning before lines get crazy. Whatever gas in left after hurricane i put it in my cars. It's no trouble at all.
Inverters are like welders. They fluctuate rpm’s based on demand.
We have an inverter generator (Honda EU 7000 is) at our house. I had an electrician wire my unit. Like you said that was going to cost me a lot of money? You’re absolutely right ($14,000). I wanted a stand by unit however I live in an association that said no to the 1000 gallon propane tank. We went with gasoline because of the energy per gallon over propane. I keep over a hundred gallons of gasoline in my shed. That’s enough fuel for a week to ten day outage. I don’t have the luxury to run out after a major storm to find & purchase more gasoline. Why? I’m too busy as a power lineman in my area restoring power to everyone else but me. We typically work a twenty for hour shift our first day in (7 am to 7 am the next day). My generator has enough fuel for the first day at half load). Then we have 7 hours off to go home & shower & rest before going back to work at 2 pm & work straight through to 7 am the next morning. Rest out weighs buying fuel to run the generator hence the quantity of fuel I store. I have an interlock in my main panel. My wife is thoroughly versed on what she needs to do to get the power back on at home. Ours has a wired remote & she is able to start & repower our house without stepping outside. We have our generator inside a stainless steel enclosure that is vented on 2 sides. It’s on a trickle charger all the time. My gasoline is all pre treated. It’s all dated so I rotate my fuel so I only have fresh fuel at our house. I also have an auxiliary fuel tank that gives me 48 hours of run time between refueling.
Everyone that sees my set up is highly impressed. Most of my friends are either lineman or electricians.
Thanks for posting the best video on generators on CZcams!
No to propane, but ok to have 100 gallons of gas. That is totally nuts, propane is way safer. That being said, about five 100 pound propane tanks would give you a bit more runtime that 100 gal of gasoline. And the propane never goes bad
@@joecummings1260
Did you read my post from beginning to end?
I live in an ASSociation that won’t let me store more than 30 pounds of propane. Let alone 800 gallons. My hand was forced. I would have liked natural gas but the line ends 2000 feet from our house.
As for the propane in a 30 pound tank? My wife is disabilled & can’t move bottles of propane willy nilly around let alone hook them up.
Propane wouldn’t give me the run time of gasoline. I would have to hire someone to swap tanks for me.
Yes, storing that much fuel is not ideal. My hand was forced.
@@johnclyne6350 Maybe you misunderstood. I was criticizing the HOA not you.
And the 100 pound tanks of propane are like 22 gallons
One gallon of propane is 4.2 pounds and has 91,452 BTUs A little less than gasoline
@@joecummings1260
One of many issues I have of the HOA I live in.
This will be the last HOA we live in. They talk a big line but they don’t look out for the best interest of everyone?
The head of the HOA got in a big argument with me about the frequency of power interruptions. Someone who has zero knowledge of electricity arging with a lineman with the same power company that serves our neighborhood.
She made blanket statements that “they never lose power”. That we aren’t allowed to have propane in any size on association property but I countered that they don’t enforce their own rules for propane grills? She was trying to blow smoke up my ass but none of it was working.
I told her if they refuse folks from installing stand by units? They will force folks into buying rollouts which aren’t covered by association rules? Then they’ll be noisey & polluting & may be illegally hooked up? Just because they sell them at a mass merchandizer doesn’t mean the user knows how to hook it up. Believe me it’s the roll out generators that are the problem for emergency responders & the public at large. Every back feed I have come across was from an illegally hooked up roll out genny.
As for fuel. My genny would burn less fuel than most because it has an eco theottle on it. However 30 pounds of propane will not last as long as gasoline. Plus my genny would be down graded because I modified it to burn propane.
I’m better with gas for the monent. Unless things change? I’ll stay with gasoline.
One thing I've been unable to find is the range amount of THD coming from the utility company into my electrical panel.
The book standard for a utility is 5% maximum at or below 69kv I believe. so it could be better than that, but should not be worse. Partially to serve their customers and partially to maintain compatibility across the grid and maintain tolerances across sensing equipment.
Will running on a generator damage your house? No been running a Generac model for over 15 years. Has saved us countless times. Also the neighbors who have kept their refrigerators going for days while we waited for power to return. We ran off the natural gas line comes on every Wednesday to test run.
All fuel-fed motors use filters because we know fuel is dirty. Instead of relying on ensuring the fuel, storage container, delivery devices are all clean, we install filters and things run good. So, instead of spending a lot more money on inadequate inverter technology, make stator generators feed into a device which converts (filters) that into “clean” power safe for home use .
A filtering system for output power is actually an inverter, in IT these are known as online or double conversion UPS systems, a simple RLC circuit cannot filter adequately in this manner. Basically the power is rectified to DC put through a storage medium (batteries) then inverted back to AC, so the inverter is still there. These systems also cost thousands vs a good quality inverter genset or a large high end backup genset with fuel injection. To use the same analogy, a simple filter on the output of a low end genset would be like trying to get race fuel out of 87 by running it through a coffee filter. The processes are very different.
well thought out explanation, but probably WAY too much info for the average person to grasp.... especially the part on dirty power, shared neutrals, etc. This is why you choose a professional installation by a company with years of experience. BTW, I just retired after 25 years with one of the larger Generac dealers.
How come diesel generators are not mentioned. More expensive at first, but less then half the fuel burn while running.
Mostly just because of time, covering everything under the sun could make a feature film out of a generator video. Really this was just geared toward inverter vs non-inverter and portable vs installed, and was meant for the kind of generators a person might grab from a big box store in preparation for a storm and not really know what they were buying other than it has lots of watts. The diesel gensets should certainly be on peoples radar that absolutely NEED a generator or are fairly rural, and are usually what you would see for large backups of commercial and pumpstations. The diesel is also more stable and has a longer life expectancy that could serve people well. I wouldn't say they are quite "half" the fuel consumption though, davidpoz has a few really good videos where he does a loaded test with a cheaper inverter, a high end Honda genset and a surplus military diesel genset. The high end inverter and the diesel were fairly close if I remember correctly in KWH per Gal of fuel consumed. If you've got a tractor and off-road diesel then a good PTO genset could also be a really cost effective emergency plan as well.
What about a 24kw generator What can it run
Assuming it’s not installed on a massive estate with electric instant water heaters, well pumps, and multiple hvac units. Then it would easily run a whole house, in fact even with a few of those things it would still run a whole house quite easily. If you were to have large loads over the capacity of the unit then you would have load shedding modules installed anyway so it wouldn’t trip out the generator trying to run everything at once.
No lineman who cares about his life is going to *assume* the power is off before working on the powerline. The normal procedure involves grounding out the power conductors before working on them. This means if you backfeed the powerline using your generator, if any lineman is working on your line, you will be feeding a direct short, and that’s just going to instantly trip the circuit breaker on your generator. The real danger with backfeeding the powerline is that you could be putting deadly voltage (up to around 15,000 volts) on a damaged cable that’s dangling within reach or lying on the ground where anybody could touch it.
there is another point that these "generator" videos miss and I think most people should be made aware of and that is the MAINTENANCE of these generators. Even though you may not use them a lot, don't you still need to change the oil and other stuff?
yup... and probably replace the battery every 4 years or so as well. There are other details like valve adjustments and the automatic safety items within the system.
Yes the standby generators require more maintenance and expense than portable ones.
No. They don't. There is nothing done to a portable generator that isn't done to a home standby system that isn't done to a portable system. Maintenance is key in any system. @@Asidebar
But you forgot one option, RV/power unit generators. (I use an island setup for my home. The inverters have AGS functions.)
Umm wut?
Ok they have a box for generators that is for the reason you stated about weather conditions yes for the frame units plus this box is also a noise reducing box as well.. so please due your research.. that Gen unit is a great product but most can not spend the money for them that's cost of Gen and the gas it takes to hook up to , yes the gas may have to update to proper size for the unit and any fixtures your gas is supplies.. if you did this to help sale a Gen unit don't .. there is many options plus I es you can uses a solar panel system as well for backup
Please watch the video before commenting. I go over the upsides and downsides of the different types including the expenses of a standby generator and why it might not be reasonable for many people. I mention the connection to gas as well. Toward the end I also talk about solar as a backup and if you can use it with a generator. The description states these generators are our personal purchases and I’m not affiliated with anyone or sponsored. Yes they have generator tents, they will not work in a hurricane, seriously, don’t do it. Many of the generator enclosures cost more than the generators themselves. You could build a generator shed but you need to be very careful with airflow, fumes and fire retardant. Yes open Frame inverter generators are an option but they still fall into the inverter generator category. If you are defending standard brushed/brushless frame generators… don’t, I’ve done my research, so much so that I’m an electrical engineer. Every generator has a purpose but that doesn’t mean that a super cheap non-inverter generator is good for your house unless you are powering non-sensitive loads. If it’s a matter of freezing to death then of course use whatever you need and can safely.
yes, gas of the proper size will be critical on a gen set, but with propane in a large tank it's generally not a big deal. With natural gas, you may have to increase the meter size or even upsize the line to the street. Get advice from someone locally who deals with this professionally. BTW, a 12Kw unit needs at least 200 CFM fuel flow, which may be double of what a small home's meter can do.
I run that Generac off of small tanks. You don't need people to deliver it. I have 4 tanks I fill 1x per year to run that.
Is this a Champion promo
Nope, it’s just what I own.
This why contact keeps burning up. Why get cumming Generator not Genetatic
A good overview of the functionality, but I guess I missed the part where you cover "will running on a generator damage your house" in relation to the whole-house units.
Really??
Yes that was not a good example he gave about the 40 amps running down the neutral wire because that's an illegal installation anyway. If you have a toaster in a microwave on that island operating at the same time it's going to overload that circuit whether it's on generator or house power. That does need to be clarified about burning your house down. The really person with the two question marks doesn't grasp the situation
@carver4894 Not quite, when you install a generator inlet and transfer switch or an interlock and have it inspected, the inlet can be split phase 120/240 4 pole. This inlet will carry all the way through to the separate bus bars and neutral and would be perfectly legal (depending on your local codes) however 120v generators that offer a 4 pole outlet (known often as RV ready), or a 3pole to 4 pole adapter, will spilt the single leg to the two hots and provide power to both busbars in a panel in phase. A shared neutral generally meets code (again check local) as long as it is on a common trip breaker. This would not overload the island circuit with a microwave and a toaster when on grid power, because the two circuits are out of phase and would cancel out the current on the common neutral. The second that a split leg generator was connected instead, the neutral would add both loads together and overload. So nothing here is generally “not legal” but would essentially be up to the homeowner to know how their generator functions before connecting. Some very knowledgeable inspectors way refuse to let you put a shared neutral circuit on a critical loads panel or an interlock, but it would be at their discretion and easy to overlook.
The reality is as much as we want to be free of fossil fuel....it's still king
this is true if you ignore the many, many people who have solar, batteries, and inverters. Maybe you have heard, there are cars, motorcycles, chainsaws, drills, table saws, refrigerators and a lot more that do not use fossil fuel.
And will be, for the foreseeable future.
@@mst5632Don't worry they charge all that with coal power from the power plants 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
In my state, coal makes up less than 11% of grid generation and is getting lower.
@@DemonicAnimatronic there's a reason All cars were not electric because electric cars come out over 100 years ago, and especially you can't charge them when it's a hurricane and the power goes out 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
This is a really good video. I would only say that "Utilities" are all connected in a way. Electricity can only do so much. If Off Grid, you need more than electricity to run a home.
A wood burning stove is key ofc. ($1500+)
Bio-Fuel as stove top fuel, back up, to the wood burner. ($1,000)
Wind turbine (these are the size of large pinwheels today) ($500)
Rain Water catchment, that is gravity fed instead of pump fed and filtered on site. ($100)
A small garden indoors or out (that grows food and medicine not just pretty plants) (Seeds and dirt maybe $50)
A 55 gallon drum that you grow fish in (To eat) indoors or out. ($20)
When the power goes down if you have JUST THIS (Which can be done in an apartment outside of the wood burner)
You aren't just surviving the outage, you thrive through it.
Utilities cost every American $240,000 over 50 years. Food costs another $240,000 The above turns that into a ONE time cost, of the above listed.
Pay under $3,000 ONCE and save $477,000 over 50 years.
Get renewable now. It's cheap, it's legal and it's more healthy for you and the planet you live on while saving you ridiculous amounts of $.
When the Grid goes down, I don't even know.
a lot of the generac's now have a Bluetooth connection. you have to be hooked up to the Internet for this thing to work. OMG what happens if somebody hacks your generac will never start again because the computers fried because of an EMP!
you do NOT need to be on the internet to use these. It is an option during set up that you can skip if you are that worried. BTW, the main point of the Bluetooth is to notify you of what's going on if you are not home. OTOH, if the net is down during a power failure, you are out of the loop anyway. BTW, you need to have the app and also a personal code to use the feature.
@@rupe53 it's going to be rather interesting when my whole neighborhood is down and the internet is down. I guess there'll be expecting the Generac to power the internet.
It still doesn't change the fact that it was a rusted up piece of cheap crap brand new in the box Rusty. They should be using more corrosion resistant materials
@@willfriar8054 ... I believe I already explained what happens if the internet is down. Everything works on the power end, but you don't get your text messages as to what's happening while you are away from home. If you are home, then you know the gen is working.
@@willfriar8054 ... how do you know it was rusty?
Your “now” is someone else’s “like”. Rid yourself of it. Otherwise great video 👍
Low voltage fries electronics. Motors that go to heating and cooling.
We have used the czcams.com/users/postUgkxOTeIs0vv4_9B5hsmnLsk9r930uDQLu_Y for probably 30 hours with our camper and it’s been great! The noise level is really only noticeable when running the AC and other appliances like the microwave, hair dryer, or coffee pot. It’s not huge like other ones and it has wheels so even at 90lbs, I can move it!
Very Good!... #103 ✝ {5-3-2023}
There are generators from small to large that will provide clean power. What does he do? Provides an affiliate link to one of the worse bang-for-buck generators on the market! Depending on your need/budget, buy accordingly. The best option is a tri-fuel generator to meet that demand. It takes hardly any time/knowledge/money to hook up such a generator to the natural gas meter. Gasoline can be the second backup. Generac is the worse solution unless you have money to throw away. Plus, he left out so much it's crazy, such as soft starts for AC, which can reduce the needed power, etc.
He has an entire video on soft starters if you looked. And the affiliate link was for a generator that I own personally and showed I the video. Because I’m not linking to something I wouldn’t buy myself. The champion generator was also on sale recently for about $400.. good luck getting more inverter generator for the money than that. Most all tri-fuel gensets have horrific THD on the order of 30%. Yes there are some standard (non-inverter) generators with great power quality but they tend to cost several thousand dollars. I also didn’t go over how to change the oil in them, or how to do a tear down of a power head… because I can’t cover everything In a single video. I would however love to link to yours just post it below 😉
So much incorrect information in regards to the transfer switch. Like not even CLOSE to being right.
I don’t understand your comment, the transfer switch controller monitors the grid and sends power to the generator to maintain its system. The ATS brain is constantly monitoring the utility side and upon a power failure severs the utility connection side and sends its start/run signal to the generator after a programmed delay. What exactly is wrong about that?
@@DemonicAnimatronic The ATS does not “sever the utility side and then send a start/run signal”. An ATS sequence of operation is as follows:
Sense utility failure
Wait for programmed time to elapse
Send start signal to generator
Verify generator power is present
THEN and ONLY THEN does the contactor operate and switch the sources from utility to generator.
There is ZERO chance that the generator can back feed the utility grid no matter what position the contactor is in. It is a double pole double throw switch. There is no physical or electrical connection between utility and generator.
So start, then disconnect utility to off position, then from off position to generator. I’m aware it’s a dual solenoid contactor. I was under the impression it disconnected utility, then started, then pulled in the generator, from a lockout standpoint that makes more sense to me but I guess wouldn’t allow for a short power blip to be accommodated. I don’t believe I ever said the generator could send power back to the panel while the utility was also connected?
@@DemonicAnimatronic at around 24:00 or so, you made a point of incorrectly explaining how the transfer switch ensures that the utility connection is severed so the generator can not feed power through to the meter. The very design of that contactor precludes the possibility that could happen no matter what position the switch is in. That is why the sequence of operation is as I stated. Also, the linear actuator that changes the position of the switch requires line voltage to move. Without either utility power or generator power, it can not change position.
@@ClearlyDigital with all due respect, that’s not incorrect though, the transfer switch does sever the utility connection to prevent the generator from feeding back into the grid, that is its purpose. In the same way as an interlock kit on an electric panel prevents back-feeding. Please stop restating what I am saying using different terminology and saying the explanation is incorrect. For example: I said I am aware that it is a solenoid operated switch, given that it is using electro magnetism to pull in a set of contacts, it is effectively a contactor. Your explanation was that it uses a linear actuator. Well, a solenoid is a type of linear actuator, however not all linear actuators are solenoids. Now, this is a layman video that was to explain the type of generators used and why you would use each and how “clean” a given type is. So when someone says what does that box on the wall do, you say it cuts the power from the grid and connects the generator. Another word for cut is sever. Of course the ac powered multi position transfer apparatus does not allow the generator to be connected at the same time by mechanical means, otherwise it could never have gotten its listing. The electronic control is not relevant either, as it does not need electricity to operate, it needs electricity to operate automatically, there is still a manual override lever, that is why it is a mechanical lockout. I also used a layman’s explanation of total harmonic distortion boiling it down to frequency variation of book standard. Because describing actual dirty power involving multiple harmonics that can bypass filter capacitors in certain power supplies is a bit beyond that video. The transfer switch shown in the video is known as a break before make switch or open transition (OTS), this means that it has to sever the utility side before connecting the generator. There are closed transition switches or CTTS, these actually do allow momentary paralleling of utility service and generator with synchronization to create a zero loss transfer, though these are really only for large commercial and hospital usage. This really is like discussing three states of matter in basic science and having someone insist you left out plasma.
"Will running on a generator damage your house?"
NO. See "Betteridges Law of Headlines".
Ahh but you missed the stipulation of the law that it only applies to questions that are yes or no. As this video clearly explains, the answer is that it depends on what generator you you use and what it’s powering, therefore Betteridge’s law cannot apply.
@@DemonicAnimatronic COL (Chuckle Out Loud) Excellent response. We have one of those generators at work (16 KVA Generac) and its waveform is pretty bad, nearly a sawtooth. We had to set all the UPS to minimum sensitivity.
No your explanation of how the automatic transfer switch is 100% wrong. When utility power is lost or below the utility voltage set point on N1N2 the generator starts. Then warms up, self checks, then transfer delay timer and the generator signals the contactor in the transfer switch to change state the generator input. Using an automatic transfer switch it is impossible to connect the generator output to the utility grid input they are mechanically separated and isolated.
As discussed elsewhere in the comments, it’s not wrong, the order of operations is just mixed up in one place when I’m describing it. Unfortunately I was not as concise in the description in the video and there is a misunderstanding with “always connected” I am not saying mains power from grid is always connected to the generator load output. I mean it is permanently wired to the ATS and sends voltage to the generator to charge the battery (via charge sub wiring in the bundle) the mix up is the sever - start - connect. It is actually start - sever utility- connect genset. Transfer switch unit senses power loss (time delay), sends start signal, genset starts (time delay), sends back transfer signal, utility solenoid unhooks utility to neutral position, generator solenoid pulls from neutral position to genset connection. No where in here is it stated that generator load output is connected to utility at anytime. Of course this is specific to this type of transfer switch from generac, my Schneider ATS senses an outage and sends a start signal, it then monitors the genset load output for voltage, once it senses it is correct and stable it will transfer and watch the mains lines for recovery. When power returns it checks stability of mains, then transfers, then sends a shutdown command to the genset. Each manufacturer does things just a touch differently.
Like I said and I mean no disrespect but “dirty” power shouldn’t be achieved unless you press the generator. I have a sine wave machine that I e had for 22 years and a new one a few yrs back which I use to find this threshold of watts/dirty power threshold. As I said. Prove this I have thousands of customers myself included that have used both machines to double check the workings of any said generator. I and a lot of my clients have 90% and up efficiency furnaces and use generators like the portable guardian Generac 17,500 watt generator since I took over the business and I never ONCE had a e- card issue. NEVER.
Gas goes bad where natural gas doesn't gum up a carburetor. Larger KW generators THD has less of an effect on electronics. The problems happen when you have a smaller generator and heavy inductive loads spiking the power inside the home with a smaller generator. The best setup is an off grid solar system backed up by a generator. That way it's only running when your battery storage is low.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
What kind of idiot would bury a propane tank? I wouldn't want to do that, even for an oil tank, I would rather have it surface mounted. I say this as we have winter and summer weather and rather have the tank above ground as it keeps it from corroding and properly maintained and inspected. That said, you did have a nice detailed video describing various generators but most houses only need to run a few lights and essential major appliances like the furnace, water heater, a fridge and a chest freezer. If you didn't buy one of the stupid Internet of things appliances as you mentioned and have a standard fridge, I don't think the standard open frame generator will affect it. The same applies for a furnace and a water heater. Most modern electronic devices have a switch mode power supply which actually filters incoming power by doing the same thing an inverter generator does. The only difference is going through it the switching is a higher 400 MHz or something of that nature.
In other words buy a generator with Volt Guard!
Im calling straight bullshit on no sponsors for this video. The only way that would be true would be because you work for them instead
Lol nope self employed engineer who knew someone with the whole home, owns the champions myself and plays with solar all the time. Used to have a WEN regular frame style gen set before the inverters. I could just as easily say you work for a competitor to someone in this video and don’t like what I showed haha. If you would like, feel free to contact some of the company’s shown and let them know, a sponsor would make videos like this wayyyyyyy more worth my time though I would be required to say and show that the video was sponsored per FTC regulations or be in biggggggg trouble. As far as I’m aware, none of these companies know I exist in any way nor do I have any connections related to anything in the backup power industry. There wasn’t even any advertising on this video, literally the only way I could make any money off of it would be if someone used one of the Amazon links to buy something, then I may make a dollar if that.
That question is the most stupid question ever asked!