My Unpopular Martin Brodeur Opinion
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- čas přidán 7. 08. 2017
- Never have I stated that my opinion is gospel. I simply have a different opinion at times and am willing to explain why.
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Nobody seems to remember Miikka Kiprusoff behind a horrible Calgary defense.
Andy Lee right on the fucking money.
Giordano, Hannan, Brodie, Bouwmeester??? Yeah so horrible not to mention they always had a tough 3rd pairing with Regehr
Levi Finkelstein Yeah you can drop names, but awfully often Kipper was forced to bail them out. Ill admit there was years defense played well. Some of these guys you mentioned were good offensivly not at defense, like Erik Karlsson nowadays geat defender, just not in defense.
@@andylee2174kipper had to bail them out because of the lack of scoring, unless iginla was getting 2-3 points a night it was often a loss.
Levi Finkelstein I know people dont think +/- statistics prove anything, but it shows someting about 5 on 5 defensive play. Check stats about players you are mentioning. Kippers stats were almost always very good, still those players you mentioned are all almost always - stats for season.
I think allmost all Canadian teams fall in same pit modern day hockey, they think great offense wins championships, that is all wrong, best example of this is Edmonton. Everybody says Mcjesus is greatest player of alltime, and offensivly he is, but defensivly he is below average and i dont know why because the skill should be there.
Luongo is the number 1 goaltender who played in games where they faced 40+ shots in a game.
Demko: Hold my beer
Hopefully not lol
Can't wait to see Sean Avery's opinion on this video.
ur son went to my highschool
Sean Avery I see u everywhere lmao
Sean Avery Not as good as the videos of me beating the balls out of Snow.
🙌💃🙌💃
JOHN LENNON THE ABSOLUTE MADMAN that's only cuz he comments on every single hockey related video
I love luongo. Hes had such a legendary career, yet so unappreciated. I just hope he stays until the panthers cup run. Or at least gets traded to a cup winning team.
Problem for luongo is that he really sucked in the finals against the bruins back in 2011.
mshat18 the whole team sucked. But yeah luongo was a big part of that. But he deserves another chance. How is it that the second most playing goaltender of all time has only been to one final?
@@blap5630 How could they have sucked? They got to game 7 of the SC finals... I mean second place is the worst loss possible but it doesn't mean what you are suggesting
DriveThru because they were up by two games and then decided to fall apart.
Perennial CHOKE Artist!
Stress / Nerves
Honest question that no one seems to want to answer: why does Osgood get penalized by that perception when a guy like Ken Dryden seemingly gets a pass on the same thing?
He was called up 3 games before the playoffs, made the starting goaltender, and helped Montreal win a Stanley cup in 1971 with an aging team and only one player (Courneyer) in his prime. And he did that by beating the Bruins--Bobby Orr's Bruins. It is one of the great goaltending feats in NHL history. Then he won the Calder and yes, eventually, played behind one of the greatest NHL teams of all time. But he had enough before he reached that point to be considered great.
Two respectful counterpoints:
1) Being successful as a goalie while only seeing a relatively low number of shots per game is a mental challenge and an art form in itself. It's much harder to get into a groove as a goalie, and maintain your concentration, when you are seeing shots sporadically. It follows that goalies that see more shots per game (like Luongo, or Miller in Buffalo) have higher save percentages. This is evident when considering Joseph's lesser performance in Detroit when facing fewer shots, as you commented on.
2) As you point out, Brodeur was an all-time stick-handling great as a goalie. He was referred to as a 'third defenseman', which not only resulted in scoring chances for his team, but also resulted in fewer shots and scoring chances against him. Chasing those pucks in the corner and passing to his defensemen resulted in fewer successful forechecks for opposing teams, and therefore fewer shots, and goals against. Lesser stick-handler goalies see more shots, goals, and fewer wins. Should Brodeur be penalized for this?
This is so accurate.
Plus that glove hand and rebound control. The teams defense was built around him, and knew how to play with him.
I wonder what his shot totals are relative to his backups. Be interesting to see.
How come Henrik Lundqvist never comes up as one of the best goaltenders of all time. Plays on a team with crap defense and is 8th all time in wins (and counting)
Stefan Gamble you should go back and look at those teams. There was a lot of defense on em.
M Kolmer valid point, but those Rangers teams still gave up massive amounts of scoring opportunities against. From 2009-2014, Lundqvist was the difference between the Rangers finishing 6th seed or finishing 11th or 12th.
@@patrickmccormack317 look at those teams! signing and trading for every stud under the sun is what got them to the 6th seed. Lundqvist was in the right place at the right time. and when push came to shove(playoffs) he collapsed. every time.
@@mattkolmer tell that to Ovechkin and the Capitals who he beat single-handedly three times in the playoffs
@@abesoloman6932 did he beat a terrible playoff team. what a guy lol
How about we talk about Marty's best statistical years after the retirement of Stevens, the leave of Nierdermayer and Brian Rafalski.
No doubt, Marty's the greatest
@@christianjohnny1015 No he isn't :D Hasek dragged a sub par Buffalo team to the finals and nearly won it all for them.
And how many cups does Dom have?
You all can talk about this and that but Martin brodeur 8s the greatest
@@christianjohnny1015
How many Vezinas does Marty have?
How many Hart trophies?
Would love a 2022 version for updated Stats since we've seen some great goalies leave and enter since this.
I’ve never felt that Martin Brodeur was the GOAT. A Hall of Famer? Yes, of course. But not the best.
Easy to get shutouts when Scott Stevens took out all the competition with an elbow to the head
New Jersey never won anything after Stevens left.
Stevens with His shoulder fired headseeking blindsider. Stevens is disgusting.
@@97carded They went to the 2012 finals without him..
@@romperstomper1493 but did they win?
Brodeur shut out stats went up after Steven's left the fuck you talking about hater
Cujo is the man. Loved him in STL.
Remember when he whipped Cheveldae?
Loved him when he was in Edmonton. Other than Weight and Smyth, as well as Arnott when he was still there, the Oilers in the late 90s were quite the lunch pail team. No money to spend on decent players. Cujo pretty much dragged a mediocre Oilers team past the Stars in 1997 and the defending Stanley Cup champions Avalanche in 1998.
i did in TO :D
Ya know, I’m the biggest Brodeur fan alive. He’s my childhood idol and I love him, but you’re right. Very rational evaluation and I admit he head great defence. Devils played trap and it benefited him hard. I still think he’s the best but I accept and respect your evaluation. To me he’s number one and Hasek number two.
all time leader is Terry Sawchuk with Wins-447 loss-330 Tides-172 2.51 GGA 103-SO
7- time All star 4 Vezina trophies 1 Calder trophy 4 Stanley Cups.
Sawchuk is the same tho he was on good teams the year he spent on the bruins he was horrible
* repeatedly says he doesn't dislike brodeur*
*devils fans: BUT WHY DO YOU HATE BRODEUR THE TRAZOIDP AND TEH CUPS AND DA WINS AND AND **/triggered zeizure/*
Great video! I love that stat.
When it comes to the best all time I ask one question. In the 90s, when Brodeur, Roy and Hasek we're all in the league, who was the best? The man who won 6 Vezinas and 2 HART trophy's. The man who played behind a very average Sabres team. The answer is clearly Hasek on eyeball test alone. Had Hasek been able to come to America before 1990 (due to the Iron Curtain) he would have stats closer to Roy and Brodeur
Watching this in 2019 is amusing =P the comment about Miller not facing a lot of shots in Anaheim.
Meanwhile they burned Gibson out, because he had to face so many shots, and carry them =P
Watching in 2021 is what you just said but x2 ahahah
"If he'd been drafted by the Winnipeg Jets, before they moved to Phoenix, I don't think we're having this conversation." Do you mean like Nikolai Khabibulin?
I come back to this video exactly 5 years on its release. Shannon, although you'll likely never read this, this was the video that made me a fan. I was so glad to see someone that shared my opinion on Marty. Im not sure if I watched this right on release, it was likely a lil while after. But its been 5 years as a member of this community and I cant thank you enough for all the videos over the years.
"About the only time I didn't want someone to hit Chelios." You're a better man than I am.
Yup, me too. I wanted Hexy to take Chelios head off for his hit on Propp earlier in that series.
@@ianschroth6575 There were a LOT of reasons for people to want somebody to take Chelios’ head off - just saying!
@@ianschroth6575 It's nothing compared to Claude Lemieux's hit on Draper. That was fucking dirty as fuck.
Glad to see Cujo being mentioned, one of my favourite players. Always put me at unease because of his wandering antics but great player
As a goalie, I cannot agree more!!! Hasek is my favorite goalie ever behind Roy. I'm also a Sabres fan so I love Miller, Barrasso, and Malarchuk as well! Thanks for your videos, I really appreciate what you do! Thanks!!!
ur delusional
You're myopia is kicking up.
Bro, this comment section is triggered hard
ShootScoreCelly Because his video is bull 💩
So hard lol
Yep I came here and I laughing 😂😂😂
I remember being a little boy and my dad out of the blue asking me if I wanted to go to the Halifax Moosheads game. A bit out of the blue..I remember him adding that Val D or had this fantastic goaltender who was just amazing to watch...Went to the game...saw him stop what felt like 50 shots and let in like two goals...still remember that feeling that he was going to stop whatever was thrown at him
After that he told me to remember his name...Have always been a Luongo fan after that...
Fast forward to the 1999 world junior team..a team that had NO business being in the gold medal game...if not for Luongo...
The Hockey Guy next video upload, "My Unpopular Sidney Crosby Opinion"
I would un sub
@@LucidTurtle You do realize it’s possible to have an unpopular about a player you like, right?
Scott Stevens shut down half the D-zone. He ended a few careers during those years.
Eric Lindros would agree-if he could remember.
Love that this channel popped up for me. Love debates like this.
1.Your building a team. Who are you putting in net?
2. Got one game to win, who you want in net?
There's so much gray in these topics. Makes a lot of fun to discuss.
I'm just here to see the pissed off Devils fans
Let’s also keep in mind that Luongo phase played in in a time where there are more shots on goal even though their careers overlapped. Miller, Luongo, Price, Reimer and even Price all played and started in times where it’s weird when there isn’t 30 or more these days.
I find what he said to be very compelling, I think I was wrong about calling him generational, but I think that's my nostalgia kicking in and I'm not a fan of the Devils. People calling you a "hater" is childish.
Not a Canucks fan, but one of my best friends is and complains about how the organization treated him like shit and used him as a scapegoat.
Kerfuffle. Love that word.
As a Flyers fan born in the late 80s, I had the blessing (curse) of getting to see some great goaltenders on the other sides of the ice. Marty was absolutely in the perfect system, on the perfect team, in the perfect division, and at the perfect time to boost his career perception. I’d love to see the stats the other way around, how many times did they face 20/25 or less shots. The Devils took advantage of the talent they had and played to their strengths, which allowed Brodeur to leverage his great skills into relatively inflated production and stats. Most of the inter division games were against a bad Pittsburgh and NYI teams, rangers were meh and Philly had spotty offensive production so kept the bulk of his games easier IMO.
He’s absolutely great but I’d say 6/7 on all time. And of the same time era, Hasek was better and again, I got to see them both kill my youthful dreams often :/
The thing that everyone is totally discounting is how his stick handling took away scoring opportunities and shots…that’s him helping himself
Completely agree, How can devil's fans use the fact he had the most wins in NHL history as evidence he is the best ever while he simultaneously holds the record for most loses. It seems obvious to me Martin Brodeur's greatest skill was longevity.
Well he has the 4th highest win percentage among goalies with at least 300 wins behind Rask, Fleury and Bobrovsky at 54.58%
Excellent analysis -from a former goalie. Me personally, I played better when I faced more shots, stayed focused. He had Stevens, Neids and Daneyko.
Marty turco
Thomas vokoun
Mikka kippersoff
Roberto Luongo
Evgeni nabokov
Ilya bryzgolov
These were my favorite goalies in the 2000s and each had more influence over me than Marty. And Patrick Roy is was and always with be the greatest and most influential player ever. The butterfly is no longer considered the "butterfly". It's just standard goaltending at this point.
Orr did the same thing Roy did he created the idea of a offensive defenseman his influence is felt today by people who don't even know who he is can't say the same about Roy tho everyone knows him
Word
Wish I had found your channel earlier.
I'm a Devils fan and I agree Hasek>Brodeur, but I don't agree that he isn't top 5. He didn't face shots BECAUSE of his ability to play the puck.
@@ironfossil9963 I did..?
@@Jibily1 no... Something happened. That was strange. Sorry to bother
So get a better puck handling goalie and the shots faced will magically reduce?
Yes it does reduce shots because you couldn't dump and Chase.. he stopped that completely
I'd like to see where Hextall is on this list
Fun fact: Trevor Kidd is a goalie that got drafted 9 spots ahead of Martin Brodeur in 1990.
Kidd was a good goalie, just wasn't on Marty's level
@@allsystemsgo8678 didn't have the benefit of the trap system either
I got to meet Trevor a few times. Really nice guy
U know I think the Devils switched with the flames
@@jasonkh3943 literally everyone's excuse. Smh
Does anyone know where Rinne ranks on this list, or how specifically to look this up?
The hockey guy please tell me the name of the site is interested in seeing the full list
Defense is a big part of a goalie stats, however rebound countrol and puck handling from a goalie is a big part of the defense stats too. I don't remember if martin had good rebound control but he was pretty good at puck handling around his net.
It's the same with price, the fact that he control his rebound and go for the puck around his net make it harder for the opponent team to shot 40 times a game.
You are so right the way you handle the goaltending puck-handling issue. Ron Hextall is Far and Away the greatest Puck Handler of all time, and no one else is even in his League. Period. Bar None... End of discussion. No comparison.
omg.. i almost blew a beer snot...
Hextall was far and away the best puck handler... when goalies didnt handle pucks.. but he is kindergarten trash compared to Martin Brodeur... come on man... are you serious?
@@speedbag67 Ron Hextall's backhand was harder and more accurate than Brodeur's forehand. You know not what you're speaking of.
Why do you feel that way ? Because you heard some ESPN announcer saying it ? Ask Doc Emrick. He covered both. It's not close.
Brodeur was a forward before he became a goalie. if you ever seen him play as a forward you would not say Hextall was a better puck handler.
@@MoonDragn77 Hextalls backhand was harder, higher, and more accurate than Marty's forehand. It's not close.
He's the greatest and best goaltender that EVER played in the NHL, that includes Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek and Fleury
Love it & couldn't agree more! Ron Tugnutt... awesome! Cujo was so much fun to watch in St. Louis! Brodeur was great, has some huge numbers, but the team he played for was HUGE in him getting those numbers.
I'm curious then where you rank Lundqvist
Hasek=most skilled and awarded goalie of all time
Brodeur=most accomplished goalie of all time
Roy=most dependable goalie of all time
statistically Hasek is more clutch then Roy
@@KaleFGB which statistics?
@@MDK2_Radio After having dealt with the aggregate numbers, it's time to delve into the individual data to take a detailed look at the situational performance of Belfour, Brodeur, Hasek, Joseph and Roy. The last time I tried to rank them by their high-leverage performance, I put them in the following order: 1. Belfour, 2. Roy, 3. Hasek, 4. Joseph, 5. Brodeur. This time I'm armed with substantially more detailed data, having broken every playoff game they played between 1994 and 2008 (except for 1997) by period and game situation, so it's time to review and update those rankings.
I expected that since all these goalies were pretty good, there wouldn't be a huge difference in their play late in the game. Turns out I was wrong. Here is how the goalies did during the first two periods:
Patrick Roy: 2.16, .923
Ed Belfour: 2.19, .921
Dominik Hasek: 2.11, .920
Martin Brodeur: 1.97, .919
Curtis Joseph: 2.37, .916
Very similar performance all around. Now let's add in their results for the 3rd period and overtime, and I'll also include my "close and late" save percentage, which includes overtime and all third periods that began tied or with a one goal differential.
Dominik Hasek: 1.77, .935 in 3rd/OT, .939 close and late
Ed Belfour: 1.75, .932 in 3rd/OT, .936 close and late
Martin Brodeur: 1.92, .919 in 3rd/OT, .923 close and late
Patrick Roy: 2.22, .919 in 3rd/OT, .905 close and late
Curtis Joseph: 2.08, .918 in 3rd/OT, .912 close and late
Hasek and Belfour significantly outperformed their peers late in games, or at least they appear to have done so. We need to evaluate the team factors before we can make a conclusive statement.
The first situation to look at is when the goalie's team is leading by one goal after 2 periods. How a goalie performs when his team is leading late in the game is probably one of the main measures people use to determine how "clutch" someone is. If a goalie can hold the other team off the scoresheet in this scenario, his team wins, which is a pretty valuable contribution.
Up By One Goal After 2 Periods:
Goalie SF SA SV% SH% W L
Hasek 21.0 28.0 .970 7.9% 16 2
Brodeur 22.4 26.4 .942 10.9% 32 5
Joseph 19.1 30.0 .938 4.9% 12 4
Belfour 21.2 28.8 .907 11.6% 22 6
Roy 19.7 30.6 .892 11.6% 20 9
In third periods his team entered leading by one goal, Dominik Hasek had an 0.83 GAA and a .970 save percentage. Did his team's style of play contribute to that? It probably did, but you can factor in an awfully strong team effect and those numbers are still disgustingly good. In Buffalo the shot splits indicate that the Sabres were pretty much hanging on for dear life whenever they got a lead - in all the third periods they started with the lead combined, the Sabres were outshot by nearly a two-to-one ratio and scored on only 5% of their shots, yet they went 21-1 because the opposition almost never scored on Hasek.
The numbers indicate that Curtis Joseph's teams were similar in terms of trading off offence to try to hold the lead. Cujo did pretty well with a .938 save percentage despite getting almost no goal support.
The numbers show that Brodeur, Belfour and Roy all benefitted from teams that were very good at counterattacking when in the lead. Brodeur had a very good save percentage, although the Devils had the best shots for/shots against ratio and probably were mostly outplaying the opposition even while ahead late. I would guess that, with the Devils' strength combined with the opposing team's likely heavy shot bias, Brodeur was probably facing a relatively low shot quality against here. The Devils were noteworthy for having a few third periods where they led but still completely shut down the opposition to the tune of only 1 or 2 shots against in the third period. However, all goalies probably faced somewhat easier than average shots when their teams were ahead by a goal in the third, and Brodeur likely did contribute to his team finishing out games.
Both Belfour and Roy had fairly mediocre save rates. Roy in particularly did quite poorly in this scenario, at least in the portion of his career included in the study, posting a sub-.900 save percentage and allowing the other team to come back to win 9 times.
Next up, how our 5 netminders did when the game was tied:
Tied After 2 Periods:
Goalie SF SA SV% SH% W L
Belfour 26.4 23.0 .943 7.3% 18 12
Joseph 23.6 25.2 .924 5.9% 9 16
Hasek 25.2 25.7 .915 9.0% 15 22
Brodeur 26.6 25.0 .913 7.6% 18 25
Roy 25.3 27.4 .903 10.5% 20 12
The tied results are a little trickier to evaluate, because both the shot rates and save percentages depend a fair bit on which team ended up scoring first to break the tie. Roy's win/loss was very good in these situations, yet the numbers indicate that the Avalanche snipers were probably the ones driving the results.
This was the only situation that Hasek's results were not outstanding. His save percentage was not too bad relative to his peers, but he may have let in a few goals at the wrong time since his win/loss record was worse than expected.
Joseph again did pretty well but got very little goal support, and that is reflected in his record.
Belfour significantly outperformed everyone else here, but his numbers show that the Dallas Stars were an elite team in tied games late.
Belfour in DAL: 31-18 SF/SA, .952 Sv%, 2.17 GF/60
All other teams: 20-32 SF/SA, .934 Sv%, 1.55 GF/60
Since it is a similar scenario, let's look at overtime results as well:
Overtime
Goalie SF SA SV% GFA GAA W L
Belfour 26.8 31.8 .949 1.91 1.64 21 18
Hasek 25.5 28.7 .939 1.89 1.75 14 13
Roy 35.7 32.4 .938 3.10 2.00 17 11
Brodeur 29.3 27.3 .916 1.48 2.29 11 17
Joseph 32.3 27.2 .889 1.77 3.03 7 12
Put these two scenarios together, and Ed Belfour was the guy with the most success in tie games. Belfour and Hasek were both strongly outshot on average in OT, yet played well enough to help their teams to a winning record.
Roy's overtime legend is well established, and these numbers do not disappoint. The shots for and against numbers seem to indicate that Colorado trusted their goalie enough to play a more open style of game in overtime, and their offence and Roy's goaltending combined for some pretty good results.
I've been critical of Martin Brodeur's overtime record before, but to be fair he has had abysmal goal support. His save percentage has not been outstanding in OT, but most of the blame should fall on the shooters. Once again Curtis Joseph did not get much goal support, but he also didn't make as many saves as he should have in sudden death play.
The final game situation was when a team is trailing. Which goalie was best able to hold the other team off and allow his team a chance to tie the game?
Down by One Goal After 2 Periods:
Goalie SF SA SV% SH% W L
Hasek 30.2 23.6 .955 8.2% 8 9
Belfour 25.6 22.2 .944 9.3% 11 18
Brodeur 30.1 22.1 .918 7.9% 5 22
Roy 28.4 20.0 .890 9.2% 4 11
Joseph 32.6 19.8 .883 9.6% 5 17
The answer, once again, is Dominik Hasek. Hasek faced the most shots of any of the goalies, and had a dominating save percentage (.955). Hasek's goal support was about average, but his team went 8-9 in games they entered the third period trailing by a goal. For comparison's sake, the average winning percentage of the other 4 goalies combined was just 26%. Belfour again joined Hasek well clear of the rest of the field.
Somewhat interestingly, the goalie that got the most support in this scenario was Curtis Joseph, the same guy who had the least goal support at pretty much all other times. Joseph's teams had a very strong outshooting rate when trailing, but Cujo's performance was not very good (.883).
If I had to rank the goalies based on their overall performance in high-leverage situations, the top choice is pretty obvious: Dominik Hasek. Hasek was great in OT, dominating when his team was trying to mount a comeback, and virtually unbeatable when they had the lead. Hasek's career was great, but his results in Buffalo were even better - as a Sabre, Hasek's "close and late" playoff save percentage in 1,167 high-leverage third period and OT minutes was an astonishing .949.
Ed Belfour takes the second spot comfortably, with Brodeur and Joseph pretty close for 3rd and 4th. Somewhat surprisingly, Patrick Roy ends up in 5th.
Roy and Joseph both suffer a bit because the 1997 playoff season is missing here. I have no doubt that Roy's playoff results in Montreal would look very strong, although they would need to be adjusted somewhat to the league scoring averages to make for a fair comparison with the Colorado numbers. I do suspect that we would see some strong team factors at play with Roy's numbers as well, however, since the Canadiens had a strong defence. The evidence here suggests that the Avalanche did not have a particularly strong team defence, but their high shooting percentages were a big help for Roy.
This whole exercise helps describe a bit more of the team context these guys were playing in. Most of all, however, it shows that Dominik Hasek was the best goalie of his generation, and that his advantage over his peers was even greater when the chips were down.
I'm a box lacrosse goalie. I played on a team who's defense allowed 80+ shots on me per game and the most goals scored in a single against me was 16. Then another goalie won the goalie of the league
Hey I just found your channel a day or two ago and I gotta say I enjoy your stuff very well done and in depth!
I am also a Devils fan and when I listen to your argument and sit and think about it, you make a lot of great, valid points. Especially during the early 2000s he had a rock solid, physical Defense and definitely played into how awesome those teams were. Granted he was definitely an excellent goaltender in my eyes and also puck handler. I can say though there are a lot of all timer goaltenders at the top of the list. Brodeur is definitely towards the top of that list, but there are others who are extremely talented at their craft.
I completely agree with you! Roy>Brodeur... every year Brodeur had an amazing defense but he was still an amazing goalie. Brodeur is definitely in the top 8 for best goalie in the NHL.
He's a top 10 goalie. But i couldn't say best ever.
I am curious now what your top ten goalies are.
So refreshing to see someone bring up Hextall. I always thought he was the one that ‘revolutionized’ goaltending with his stick handling. No disrespect to Brodeur, he was obviously great… just glad to some hextall props.
And stick design. I’m think we teamed up with ‘Christian’ sticks and manufactured one with an ergonomic handle for m the shaft next to the paddle and a curved knob to assist with poke checks and leverage.
@@m.fheagle3286Hextall has way less assists than Barasso and Marty, so your point really doesn’t matter
Where did you find this list?
If Hextall was the better puck handler then we would call the trapezoid the Hextall rule rather than the Broudeur rule
The rule came in after Hextall retired. Hextall was intimidating when he came out because he would both play the puck and throw a nasty hit to go with it.
The Hockey Guy The league didn't try to stop Hextall because he was good but wasn't too much of a threat. The league put that rule in because guy's like Broudeur were threats with the puck.
prime mcmanus He wasn't a threat no he was just the first goalie to shoot the puck in the net in the regular season and playoffs and would hit and fight you but no threat
ThatGuyUKnow18 yeah bad wording but Martin was the whole reason the corners are off limits to goalies, he was essentially a third defenseman.
you are an idiot
Stand up hybrid goalie in butterfly world.
Alex Pitti you literally said more in this comment than thg said in 18 minutes of talking about 40 shot games!
@@fastfunpokerjamie124 👍😁well put😎🙏🏻
Hey could you link this list?
I started watching hockey in the late 90's early 00's when Brendon shanahan and lyndstrom and yserman were all playing. Man what a team Detroit was back then...
The neutral zone trap was deadly in New Jersey but Marty was also a wall.
@Junior71392 he was robbed of that conn smythe smh dude outplayed Giguere
I never knew this many Devil fans existed!
Don't be bitter cause you never witnessed your team win a cup , I've witnessed it 3 times :-)
Do you have the link for this list? Not that i don't trust you but I would like to check the list by myself :P !
Here is the article which references that page. thehockeywriters.com/exposing-martin-brodeur-the-nhls-most-overrated-goalie/
Thanks!
Il lit beaucoup de trop de magazines américains. Beaucoup de patriotisme dans leurs opinions. Je crois qu'il fait trop de vidéos, des fois ses sujets manquent de recherche un peu. The Hockey Writers c'est loin d'être une référence mondiale en hockey.
I'm a cowboys fan and I hear a similar argument against emmitt smith where ppl say his line got him all those yards. It certainly didn't hurt but at the end of the day you gotta be a pretty great player to hold the records both marty and emmitt hold.
James Bellflower would overrate Aikman well before Smith
Being good for a long time dosent make u the best I'd think having the best single season performances matter more brodeur was never the best goalie in the league he just latest at a elite level of skill for longer then normal u can value that how u want but I value a amazing history setting season over 20 years of just being good
As a goalie, I find that i play better when i see more shots in a game. I find it much easier to keep in "the zone" when I am busy than when i have time to relax and think about things and get cold. It is a very mental position and it is easy to let your mind game get away from you.
Exactly why Marty was the best. Countless NHL goalies have said that's the hardest type of game to play as a goalie.
This reminds me of the argument that Ken Dryden was overrated due to having so many good defencemen in front of him along with Scotty Bowman's defensive style philosophy.
Dryden was a winning goalie...not the best goalie....he would simply close the door at the right time.
Tommy Barrasso was one of the top few puck handlers too. I think he's still #1 in career points for a goalie. There were some great break out passes from Barrasso to Lemieux that led to breakaways.
Is there a video of your hockey collection
If brodeur is not top 5 for the reason you stated, then that automatically means that either stevens and/or neidermayer are top 5 defenseman of all time
No, no it doesn't. The Devils style of playing the trap greatly enhanced the numbers Brodeur was able to put up.
jason pidgeon under that logic Fleury with 3 cups and a gold medal, and Crawford with 2 cups and a gold are just as good as Brodeur? Oh wait, here's a better one, Ken Dryden, 6 cups in an 8 year career!?!? You honestly think 3 cups and 2 gold medals playing for Canada (gimmes) are significant compared to other goalies, like Crawford or Fleury who also play for stacked teams?
Bailey the difference is that brodeur has those accomplishments plus personal accomplishments. He has 4 vezina trophies and 5 Jennings trophies. Leads in all time wins, all time shutouts, postseason shutouts, and other key categories. He also has a calder trophy, which testifies to his consistent excellence from the very start of his career to finish.
SHWOOP221 Ken Dryden has 5 harts, a Smythe, a Calder, 4 vezina's, a Lady Byng, and was on the first all star team 6 times, the 2nd all star team once in his 8 year career (first year only playing 6 regular season games and winning Conn Smythe in playoffs), he was a much more dominant player than Brodeur ever was
The Hockey Guy where would you rank stevens and neidermayer? Or is that a whole other video. I feel like the trap argument completely diminishes the greatness of those players. If the trap was the reason why they were so great you would think more teams would try to emulate it. The devils were the most successful team to implement the trap and it had to do with the skill of their defensive core and goaltender. In my eyes he is number 1 but i could see how roy and hasek could be ahead of him. He is at least top 3. I know it is all opinions i just feel like his accomplishments dont lie. He is the Tom Brady of the nhl.
Where is RICHTER ON THAT 40 shots list ?
I love this opinion! The only real caveat I have about this is he didn't face all that rubber that all the other goalies faced so we don't know. We don't actually KNOW whether or not he would have performed better or worse with a terrible defense in front of him. It's an unknown and unfortunately we will never know.
Be great if you could post that full list because it’s pretty hard to find that out searching it. Love the video. Good little stay there
Devils were always a different first team so I can see where your coming but I disagree with you putting him top 10 instead of top 5. Still love your vids though.
In the end we're all hockey fans watching another hockey fan's video. It's all in fun.
I agree 100%. He has to be at least top 5
hanzifaction he doesn't have to be, statistically he is not top 5 worthy actually
If 691 wins, 125 shutouts, 4 Vezina trophies and 3 Stanley Cups isn't top 5 worthy I don't know what is
pothegreat93 wins and Stanley cups are team accomplishments
Hasek > Brodeur
CircleTheWagons I’m a devils fan, but even I can’t argue that. Hasek is the goat
1. Hasek
2. Roy
3. Brodeur
Thats how I'd Rank it.
@@sunileddu5847
1. Brodeur
2. Hasek
3. Roy
hasek all day baby
Hasek is the goat no question
I honestly agree with him I never knew this and im glad I learned something today
Thank you for talking about Chris Osgood. I wonder how many times he faced 40 or more shots a game when he WASN'T a Red Wing.
I bet at least 10-15 of them was that run he had in STL.
That Blues team was so hard to watch. I still watched. But fuck.... it was hard.
i see your point but you can't get so many records and these great stats by just having an great defense otherwise Roy or Lundqvist would have an much easier time trying to touch his records
Don't forget Lundqvist started when he was 23 and Roy didnt have a 60 game season until he was 24. So if Lundqvist or Roy or even Louongo played the same amount of games they would have been closer...
Jason Forrisi that’s if they could play that many games and remain consistent, for example Brodeur has 12 (70 games played seasons. Roy has 0
Hasek is most talented skilled goalie. Marty is most protected, defense,NHL,etc. Roy is best all around
@NY Devil it wasn't luck. He did it on purpose. He practiced it that way. He was the first goalie thst ever worked on sealing the ice. He did something no one else could do at the time. The way guys do it now is just a more perfected version of what hasek did.
@NY Devil thats because its physically almost impossible to do the things he did and coaches won't teach it. They used his methods of sealing the ice and changed it to be what they teach nowadays. I know because i tried learning haseks style for years. I also coached. Basically what dom did was backwards to what we normally do. Instead of sliding back and using your leg to stop a shot he would go on his back and use his arm. He was the first goaltender to master sealing the ice. The other guys just learned how to do it with other parts of their body.
About Cujo, I'm a Blues fan, and I was very young when he was in STL, but I knew at the young age that Cujo needed to see a lot of work to be successful.
I still get ripped on for talking about that with other Blues fans.
Do you know where you got this statistic?
I have literally been saying this for years! Love your vids man!
See I'm a devils fan but I also started watching hockey in the Schneider era so I'm a little low on knowledge but I think you could definitely say those devils teams have the best defense goalie combo ever would you agree
Also would you say Marty Brodeur is the greatest offensive goalie of all time given he technically is the only goalie with a goal while the opposing teams goalie was on the ice
ian padilla The problem with Schneider is that he plays in the shadow of the Brodeur era. I do think Brodeur was the best goaltender in the history of the league, coming from a Rangers fan.
The 95 stanley cup winning game is on youtube. It's grainy 90's standard definition quality but it's still a fun watch.
Watching a couple of these older videos on the channel gives a bit of perspective. 😅 You've evolved so much Shannon, thanks for your hard work all these years.
Great podcast, with a good deep dive on brodeur and/or goalies
I will reevaluate his overall position of top goalies
One thing about Brodeur, to me, beyond his solid defensive teams, is his mental strength. Until later of his career, he rarely made mistakes, esp puck handling, he was very good but he also was quick to make a decision and make the play, before the forward was on him
Roy and Brodeur also benefited from one of the greatest goalie mental helps: Win the cup early in your career 1st and 2nd year respectively
Look at the pressure Belfour faced after winning Vezinas or being top 3
He had to deal with CAN HE WIN THE BIG GAME, till he did
i would love to see a second edition to this video stating that if Brodeur isnt the greatest of all time because of a shooting statistic and defense, then Holtby isnt even top 5 in the league as of right now in this era for the same reasoning... and then push for another video showing why schneider is one of the most underrated goalies of all time because of his defense and why he should be considered a top goalie in the league as of right now in this era.
in my opinion and many others, Brodeur is considered the greatest goalie in all of hockey, but according to your statistic methods and team management variables, he isnt..
i would love to see a video of you showing a list of the top goalies based on how you rated Brodeur because i believe the results would be shocking
14:53 Karlsson does have two Norris Trophies.
Love these old videos when you acknowledge that you might get hate but left it at that, no need to go on about the online clowns
I agree, perception has a lot to do with it.
As a Ranger fan I don't want to credit Brodour as much as I do. But I do have him in my top 3...with Hasek and Roy above him. However, like you say, it depends on perspective and how you weigh everything.
(I'm sure I have some East coast bias too)
Just curious though, do you have a link to that full goalie list?
I still say that Claude Lemieux won a Conn Smythe with Brodeur in nets. Look Claude was a very good playoff player but Roy won the Conn Smythe I think twice with Claude in the lineup. In Montreal and Colorado.
Claude played out of his mind that year. I hated him, but he was fantastic for the Devils.
The Hockey Guy I totally agree with your assessments of Martin Brodour - He was a very good goalie and benefitted very much of the defensive culture and mindset that dominated their coaching staff down to he players and it was a perfect marriage of the "90's" style of hockey of the hook, hold and tackle that was tolerated by the refs and you play that defensive trap style " then bam" you have a very good goalie that's practically unbeatable with The NJ. style. And your absolutely right " goalie's handling and shooting plus most of all stick handling of the puck ITS Ron Hextall and then the rest " not even close" Hextall first to score a goal and second and more importantly he scored a Playoff goal - NOW this Chelios situation theirs background to Hextall attack, early on in that Semi- Final series Chelious " viscously " elbowed Brian Propp's head basically almost threw the glass and Propp was lost for the rest of the series SO at the end of game 6 in the waning moments HEXTALL being a great teammate " did not forget" went after Chelios before the Canadiens were able to leave the Spectrum Ice with The Wales Trophy - " I loved it because it confirmed of how passionate competitive and loyal to his teammates HEXTALL WAS. " It was not a cheap shot against Chelios IT WAS CLASSIC PAYBACK FOR ANOTHER TEAMATE - HEXTALL'S RAGE AND PASION AND HIS DESIRE TO WIN IS LEGENDARY IN PHILADELPHIA. PA.
This is the first ever time that I've put a dislike on one of your videos. I have to because you not putting Brodeur in the top 5 best ever with all of the records he holds is absurd to me.
ya like how do you not include msot losses?? or or least amount of games facing 40+ miniumum 200 games??? liuke come on bruh
Definitely agree with you on that one, It's hard for me to choose between all the amazing goalies and make a list. Brodeur would prob be around my top 8 for me for sure Minimum probably still top 5. I always loved Brodeur as well, nothing against him, It's just how I see it as well. One of my 3 favorite, but not one of my 3 best goalies of all time.
I think Brodeur is higher than just a top 10. Yes he played with a great defense ahead, but it's not like the Devils were winning 5-1 every night, they won a lot with tight margins (2-1, 3-2 or 1-0). Also, you can't invalidate a goalkeepers achievement because his team was defense-oriented for 2 reasons:
1) goaltender is an important part of that said defense (especially the way Brodeur handled the puck, the confidence he gave his guys ahead, etc.). I think in this case, Brodeur made the Devils a good defensive team, not quite the other way around
2) it would mean you have to invalidate some goal scorers achievement because they played with offensive teams (remember a certain Oilers team winning 8-6, 6-3, etc., etc.! But I don't see anyone arguing Gretzky achievement (and I wouldn't either).
It's hard to pinpoint a GOAT in the net, but I think Brodeur's name deserve to be mentioned.
Brodeur has to be the best puck handling goalie of all time and a big part of the Devils' defense and winning. That also had to help limit shots somewhat, at least from the forecheck.
Either way, you should have donned a Devils jersey for this video 😜
Ahem AHEM hextall Ahem AHEM
He was not a big part of the devils winning cause if they just had any nhl starter they would still win.... just look around the league chunk any bad goalie onna stacked team and they will have a career year look at brain Elliot in 2013 .... and halak.... on the blues .... look at what they did ....there both average goalies but they had 2 of the best seasons in nhl history ... because of a good defense ....
It is insane how much you're undervaluing his puck skills. He's the definition of the 3rd defender, the NHL had to change the rules to limit his ability to control the game from the backend. He'd constantly feed his forwards for breakaways every time the opponents tried to dump and change.
Additionally, I've never heard a rant like the one at 7:20 in which you're arguing that the awards are biased and Marty got more exposure in the swamps of New Jersey than Bobby Lou starting in a top Canadian market. More baffled than anything at that take.
It has nothing to do with Canadian vs. American. Eastern players get greater exposure than western players. It isn't just with the Vezina.
Hockey Guy - It baffles me how you continue with this logic that less shots means easier to win/easier to obtain better stats. That's been disproved so many times. Additionally, if Brodeur sucked when facing busier nights in net, then I could understand why you'd use seeing less shots throughout his career as a knock on him, but the fact is he played statistically BETTER on busy nights than light nights. 104 playoff games in Brodeur's career where he saw an average of 31.5 shots per game. In those 104 playoff games Brodeur posted a .928 SV%. What does that tell you? That tells you that his other 101 playoff games where he saw less than 25 shots per game he had to be posting an inferior SV% because his career playoff SV% is a .919....
I'm sorry, but your logic makes no sense at all when it comes to dismissing Brodeur as one of the greatest of all-time.
Hextall blows Brodeur away with the puck
I love how you state your opinions, don't pay attention to haters it's your channel and your opinion, keep up the good work THG!
Ild love to see the updated numbers today (5/4/2019)
I gotta agree with you man. Will you ever make a vid on the best goalies? I also so agree with what you said about Cujo.
I'm a Brodeur fan but after listening to your points I have to agree that he isn't top five. I still like him though.
Do you have stats on games where the goalie faced under 20 shots?
Hasek and Joseph are my top 2 in my limited hockey life.....how my Hurricanes beat that '02 team is beyond me.....great hockey... i have only known this awesome game since '97 when the Canes moved here but have done my best to learn the history....
Oooof! So off base. Martys best year stats wise came with a defence anchored by Paul Martin. As good as those cup winning D corps were Marty made them even more dangerous
Uh no, the stat he showed for shots over 40 tells pretty much the whole story... it's rediculous to say one season outweighs an entire goaltender's career, especially one that lasted as long as Brodeur's. It's like saying that the top goaltender from any given season that faced the most shots is the best goaltender in history... simply doesn't work like that. Also any good goaltender props their already fantastic team up, that doesn't mean anything to the argument THG was making. He explains it better than I ever could, so maybe watch it again, it's been a year since you last did haha
This is exactly what I am thinking about for years since Brodeur played on a strong defensive system. Imagine if he was drafted by the teams you mentioned (Winnipeg Jets, Hartfort Whalers, or Quebec Nordiques), he won't have the same success as with the Devils. Imagine if Scott Clemmensen was born a couple of years earlier and was drafted by the Devils, he could at least won a Stanley Cup. He had an amazing 08-09 season, the season when Brodeur was hurt, and the team was good as well. Of course, Brodeur is miles better than Clemmensen, but Clemmensen is good enough to win the cup in those championship teams. I could see Arturs Irbe winning the cup with the mid to late 90's and early 2000's Devils teams at least once. That's how strong the Devils' defensive system was.
Neutral zone trap is tremendously effective defensive system. The Devils perfected it.
@@chrisbk3265 they only played the trap for 5 years
@@njtbfl03 I'm not blaming them. You play according to your strengths.
Look say whatever you want but the guy played 70+ games every single year for 10 straight seasons (12 total times) you can argue the hall of fame defense of stevens, niedermayer and guys like Rafalski and Daneyko contributed but in 2006-07 without Scotty Stevens and without Scotty Niedermayer he had a career best 12 shutouts, he also had save % in the .920's after losing 2 hall of fame defense by 2009-10 a then 37 year old brodeur had 9 shutouts with guys on the blueline as Mike Motteau, Mark Fraser, Bryce Salvador , Colin White and Andy Greene while playing 77 games and boasting a paltry 2.24 gaa and .916sv%
not to mention his ability to stick handle changed the way the game was played , often referred to as a third defenseman , his longevity, his durability, his consistency, his scorpion saves there is a reason he has 125 career shutouts
You are right about Curtis Joseph-he performed better when facing a lot of rubber.As for Marty,he benefited from the trap,there were games he would only face 18,19,20 shots.
One of my favourite goaltender moments?When Felix Potvin skated mid ice and punched out Ron Hextall.Most believed that fight was going to go the other way,lol.