Psychologist Lt. Col. Dave Grossman -- On the Psychology of Killing
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- čas přidán 5. 02. 2016
- Alan Gregg has an in-depth conversation with military psychologist Lt. Col. Dave Grossman about his book "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society." Grossman maintains that we inherently resist killing our own species and that most soldiers engaged in face-to-face combat find it difficult to kill. Many veterans are plagued with guilt about taking another man's life. He believes part of the reason for the rise in civilian murders is that children are desensitized to violence by associating vivid media and videogame depictions of intense human suffering with pleasure. (Originally aired by TVO on March 1996 and released freely to the public in April 2012).
On killing and On Combat assured me I wasn’t crazy and was able to transition to civilian life effectively
That right there is what spawned the outbreak of serial and spree killers that dominated the headlines in the late 60's, early 70's and till this day. They systematically desensitized and trained mass amounts of people/soldiers to kill. Unfortunately once that impulse has been turned on, many people are unable to turn it off, once they return to civilian life. That is why the most unreported common trait among the majority of these killers is combat training.
Ingenting annat än clowner
Yes, this book did mention about how mass media and gaming desensitized the act of killings. The method which military used to train its solders is not very different than computer gaming, for example. It does makes it easier to overcome our own resistance of killing of own kind; however, it doesn't create the 'urge' to kill. I've been trained in US military but in fact, I don't ever want to kill anyone. I was shocked by how easy and powerful our killing weapons are. I guess that they said is true. The people who want peace more than anyone else are the military members and their families.
@@francisphuong9989 un ejemplo de lo que dices , son los videojuegos de Call of Duty o GTA donde matar es tan normal
If you want to understand the psychological effects of killing, then read his book On Killing. If you want to critize his work, read his book so you dont look stupid. Criticizing his conclusions based upon his personal experience does not disprove his empirical findings.
I read " On Killing" when it was first published in the 90s when I was a member of the Military Book Club where books were sent in bunches and I paid for the one I kept and returned the others.
I found this work very eye opening . I'm disappointed with the track LtC Grossman has taken since with trying to apply his ideas to civilian law enforcement. I see it more as indoctrination than professional training.
I agree totally
I'm starting the book tomorrow. If you want to refresh yourself I'd love other viewpoints
I wonder how Dr. Grossman would comment on the fact that the violent crime and murder rate has been going down for the last 2 decades statistically speaking. Despite violence in the media and all that.
He says it’s to do with medical advances.
He argues the murder rate is being artificially held down by advances in medical technology and improvements in 911 response times.
@Guysfadsfasf I agree. The question of whether or not watching violence in movies, violence, and video games makes a person more violent has already been answered. The answer is "no". In fact, one study shows a propensity to avoid violence. If viewing violence apparently contributes to a person's penchant for violence, it means that person has experienced another origin of that violence, and not merely viewing or even enjoying fictional violence. His transfer of violence from fiction to reality is bogus.
@@battlemartialarts5673 but that is easily disproven. Attempted murder statistics would have risen in proportion to the decline in murders then, no?
They didn't. They have fallen steadily as well. All crimes involving violence have. this invalidates the medical advances argument.
I read both books. On Killing and On Combat. I joined the USMC at 29. I knew what i was getting into. Makes it more difficult.
I’ve read them both too. He’s pretty accurate in his descriptions of the pyschological effects of killing, at least for those who have a conscience.
At the very end he gives away the deliberateness with which our society is shaped. He talks about inducing violence within a community through outside desensitization (movies, video games and surely music, although I didn't hear him say this). Essentially, attitudes and societal trends are shaped through media. This, and I'm paraphrasing, acts as the starting point for the downward spiral of the community. You induce from the outside what you want to see and then watch it self-perpetuate. At the very end he states: "…and then you can begin de-escalating the spiral of violence." His word choice (…and then…) strongly hints that the de-escalation is only the last step of a deliberate multi-step process. In essence, the breakdown of societal norms and ethical principals has been deliberate. Urban areas are but the most glaring example. I assume there is a plan somewhere on how to 'rebuild' society after the complete collapse. It's June 2020 now. Looks like we're headed for the magnum opus. Stay safe!
So very well spoken 👏
The book is absolutely phenomenal, notably the introduction where he briefly glosses over the historical intersections between sex and killing, and the relationship between sex and killing in combat. Brilliant guy! Brilliant book.
It's a great display of raging mental illnesses, with very specific names.
Bruh the army is insane lmao
Grossman is NOT a psychologist (he doesn't have a PhD) and never practiced clinical psychology. He also never did any scientific research. The extent of his field work was an internship in a middle school. He never saw combat or any type of violence. But at $6000 plus travel expenses for a speaking engagement he sure has cashed in.
Excellent! A clinical analysis on the effects of one person killing another person. He did a great job in his explanation of the rationalization of killing. I highly recommend his book: "On Killing"
Why is everyone freaking out about him? Did I miss something? I look forward to checking out the book
He also wrote a good book called On Combat.
Unless you have read the book, don't bother commenting. He is not a psychopath; he wrote a book about something we, as civilians, would never understand. As a former US Army sergeant, I can confirm the method military used to overcome our psychological resistant to killing are right on point. And the price our young men and women have to pay to protect us.
I'm buying the book tomorrow. Getting ready for when the USA civil war becomes violent. God bless you.
😪
@@fishsmell2570 There will be no civil war and you don't want one, everybody is too cowardly nowadays on all sides of the political spectrum.
Sir thank you for saying what you said and doing what you've done greatly appreciate it 110% funny thing is is that all these liberals he's left wingers I would love to see them how you or tell anybody who's come back from combat to their face what they say greatly appreciate everything you've done for this country
Screw you. People will bother commenting while we still have free speech
This Dr. Grossman is highly intelligent. I study psychology. A little bit on trauma little bit on mental illness I'm a veteran. Non-combat Therefore I never had to kill anybody. But it gives me an insight.
What do you think about the theory of desensitization of violence through media
@@TheDudeMaaaan I think people are desensitized anyway it is the culture we live in it is also a culture that propagates fear fear is a terrible place to live in
My main quarrel with this video is the degree to which he seems to be thinking about 'urban' gang-bangers... which may or may not be right, but it seems that his point is as important in expanding school shooters.
I was upset that my enemy could not feel pain anymore when they died. People I served with handled it so differently than me, they actually seemed sad in a way.
powerful
There seems to be quite a lot of negative comments about this interview. However, I don't see any credentials or qualifications from the profiles from where the sentiments are generated. Anyone here like to produce their medical degree and license number and state of issue?
They’ve not read his books. I have. He’s dead on exactly right, and conclusions are supported by quantitative data presented in his books.
Ask Grossman to show you his qualifications first....
Why has this guy been a secret so long?
i've listened to him. i have looked at him while he spoke. i think he is a sociopath. i won't expound on my personal views on killing, but when necessary, one must choose to commit, then commit to living with it. a person can live with war and killing. you can choose to not consider politics. you can go to war with your buddies and you can be a professional and part of that is living with death.
as a martial artist and self defense instructor i have made the mental commitment to save my life and to never be a victim. as a civilian and a person who has never seen war, the best i can do is understand the difference and be ready to commit to a level of violence that will be several levels of mayhem that is too terrible to encounter.
when your mind is locked, you kill
An interesting question for me is how much of the vitriol in the comments is defensiveness about his argument that violent video games are bad for society. What a surprise: youtube commentators tend to take umbrage about his argument regarding video games.
His point about the programming without discipline is very accurate. I remember playing GTA San Andreas. I was standing on a roof top shooting people. I stopped and suddenly became very disgusted with myself.
How many people never felt that?
Yes, I think that's a significant point, and -- contrary to his pro gun rights stance -- fits in with a larger tendency in society to view guns as entertainment devices rather than killing tools.
@@Rhydderch69 I'm pro gun but my guns are only for hunting or defense of life. I'm sick of hearing people talk about killing someone because they piss you off. It's obvious that some individuals shouldn't own guns but leave the sensible people alone.
If you'll let me. Let's say we want to reduce vehicle deaths. Do we crack down on dangerous drivers or tell everyone they can't own sports cars anymore?
I disagree with treating everyone like they are the worst of society.
You have a point but that doesn't mean he's correct. There isnt a single reputable source linking violent games and movies to greater rates of actual violence. I get that you're an older person so you probably share his lack of knowledge about video games. The angry comments could also be because he conducts highly controversial classes for cops where he argues cops shouldn't feel guilty for killing someone even if they make a mistake. In his eyes it's just a small price to pay for effective law enforcement. It's no coincidence he talks about fatherless "urban youths" in here, I doubt he's an overt racist but the ideas he teaches to cops disproportionately affect people of color. More importantly most of them lack a scientific or legal basis. That being said On Killing is a very well researched work. I just wish he would've stayed focus on research and academic analysis rather than make a living from teaching questionable policies to police and military.
I engaged my brain for 26 minutes to learn about something new today on CZcams :)
Brutal
this vid should be retitledconversations with lt col dave grossmans and his personle dreams and and confessions
Beautiful this man is so right. Seen and been through alot of violence hes so right
The Pied Piper of HELL 🔥.
This guy makes more sense than anyone whom I have heard speak on the subject.
Crucial point is that this is TVOd on March 1996, so we're in a very different era, post 'Boyz in the Hood, pre-Sandy Hook.
Are there any modern-day books out like Grossman's. This subject fascinates me for all the right reasons.
@@IceColdProfessional Leo Murray, Brains and Bullets, 2011: more military history.
And crime rates have dropped dramatically since then.
You think this very short period of time has altered the human psyche in some drastic way? You think the percentage of sociopaths is greater now than it was in 1996?
To people knocking the author, you obviously haven't read his books. As a soldier or police officer, your job involves the very real possibility of killing someone. That's what his study is about. Read the books before you make dumbshit comments.
Police are scum.
17:20 everyone in the comments here also condemning cops are doing the same thing we did to returning Vietnam vets.
Good shit LT. very true! good assessment of that type of individual
If this guys eyes got any closer together
peterson of killology
what a psycho
8:05 we tell people they are devaluing themselves if they have sex (especially before marriage) but then expect you to have a healthy and happy sex life once you're married like you can just shut off all the guilt assigned to the topic. Sex and violence really are similar.
Violent entertainment does not cause violence just as porn doesn't cause rape or sexual dysfunction. A person who is already disturbed may obsess over either, but censorship is never the answer. Why take away everyone's right to punish the few who would do something bad anyway? You're just hiding a symptom.
Violence is not increasing per head. We simply have many more people and better media coverage of these events when they do happen. Like Sigmund Freud, you are a pioneer, but very off due to assumptions.
Damn. We must have really came a long way, and in a good way, as a society. Now, instead as viewing sex as devaluing, for men at least, it increases one's value, hence the number of girls laid, etc. Complete opposite now. lol Interesting to say the least. Honestly, I think the whole sex taboo thing is an artificial construct by religion, whereas killing is a deeply ingrained taboo in the human mind, like this man says.
@@CC-mm3bl it's not so much from a religious source as the idea that women are property and that female virility is a fine resource. This attitude happens across many cultures and would still be there regardless of religion. I'm not saying one should go for a "high score" or that it makes you a better person, but experience breeds perspective.
Comment
This guy sounds Freudian to the core.
I personally think that whether you will kill or won't is based on circumstance and the idea of humans not wanting to kill our own species is something I'm not completely sold on because we desire for war and kill others because they disagree with our idea of morals but because you think something is wrong is doesn't make it the gospel truth you just have to have faith that you are right and we still have many states in the U.S that enforce the death penalty all I'm saying is nobody is good or bad your perception of you being good or bad depends on you enforcing what you see as right in the given circumstance
Under what circumstances do you think Jared Vogel, Jeffrey Dahmer, or Ted Bundy believe they are justified short of psychopathy/evil? If right and wrong are only relative between two points, how far do you have to move the goal posts to make them okay people? I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I'm legitimately curious.
Dave Grossman: "I'm going to take a big leap and write about a huge social taboo."
EVERYONE in the comments section: "tHiS mAn Is BaD!"
And those same people would be the same ones to attack social scientist and psychologist who wrote and discussed sex.
you make no damn sense.
@@Buttercup-vw2zo Ok
those who "like" this should see what effect he's had on the U.S. (and
likely further) policing and 'shoot-first' teaching towards the public.
- He's taken the study and information here and weaponized cops against
citizens.
Look further on what he's done, and IMO, is responsible for the deaths
of many.
No :))
Wow. Never heard of how physcology was used to turn off that natural inclination to not kill. That makes sense why police are like they are. They get the kill training without the assessment training. Dude is actually trying to put us on to game not condoning it.
Damn, real life Marvel villian here.
now hes hailed as a hero......
and the cops wonder why so many cops get shot and run over in the streets....its retribution or self defense!!!!
☠...and they call Ed Gein the real "Psyco".
In the bible especially in the old testament after every battle the Jewish warriors would be shut out of their towns and cities and wanDer out in the periphery for a few days. This is a kind of purification ceremony.
Most tribal societies have these kindo of purification ceremonies but since the arrival of Christianity this kinds of ancient practices were destroyed or forgotten.
I've read the Bible more than once and don't remember that. Could you give us scriptural reference to look up?
Lt. Karen
God I love this guy....
He’s factually incorrect! Bugles and drums were not used for intimidating the enemy, they were used by commanders to communicate orders to their troops!
Why? He talks absolute shit and his theory on humans not being able to kill without training is ridiculous, ordinary people kill every single day. His idea about animals avoiding killing one another and “posturing” is also absurd, animals and humans may refrain from attacking another due to them not wanting to harm themselves in the process (animals always posture and try scare away the threat regardless of the species anyway)
Muscle memory through training supercedes mental considerations when institutionalized within the daily processes of a person. U become a killer without thought. All of the military’s training is conditioned to “Do as you are told, without question.” Such is how you make a killer.
Such is the democrat college conditioning, which Biden is so Damn bent on celebrating.
Only basic training is about doing as you are told. Anyone who gets any higher in the military and doesn't have a desk job quickly find out problem solving is the name of the game. This is why NCO's despite being of lower rank typically are more competent than many generals who just kissed their way up the ladder.
@@tylerdurden6208if you think only one side is being conditioned you’re quite literally the one that’s been conditioned, if you had any insight at all you’d realize every one of us is being conditioned to fight each other and blame the bad stuff on just the one side to keep the peasants fighting amongst each other while saying it’s the other teams fault so we don’t get together and feed them to wolves like we should have decades ago
Don't you try telling me what I think.@@isaac-vb1ng
@@isaac-vb1ngright on
Interesting until he gets to the unscientific shit at the end about violent games and movies being associated with greater propensity for violence.
Keep in mind at the time these studies where almost new to psychology, new recent studies prove him wrong on video games and television violence
Each of the mass school murderers was shown to be heavily involved with violent movies and video games. Only studies funded by the video game industry attempt to show a lack of correlation between violent video games and movies. The military uses similar technology to condition soldiers to overcome their innate reluctance to kill. The entire advertising industry is built on being able to change behavior. But, the entertainment industry seeks to absolve themselves from any responsibility for using the same technology to influence some susceptible young people toward violence.
@@hardanalljr.3138 It is not just any video game but violent video games that have the player hold a "weapon" of some sort. Second, is if you don't think the media does not condition people you are an idiot.
@@blakeb.8734 Listen idiot , I would rather listen to a Harvard study then some random bloke on CZcams , researchers have questioned the validity or applicability of much of the research supporting the view of video games and violence , Much of the research on violent video game use relies on measures to assess aggression that don't correlate with real-world violence. Some studies are observational and don't prove cause and effect.
Federal crime statistics suggest that serious violent crimes among youths have decreased since 1996, even as video game sales have soared 4× even with the lastest graphics and technology which allow for a more surreal experience
Violent computer games, films, TV.. a supposed 'public enemy' identified in the media...
Well it is true that media is a major influencer. This is why the government spends billions of dollars on promoting propaganda in the news, social media, and even entertainment. It is the closest thing we have to modern mind control just on the statistics that exposure to certain themes repeatedly do cause the majority of the population to accept those ideas regardless of the logic. Covid regulations are a perfect example of this.
This guy looks like Channing Tatum.
Ben O thank you! I've been trying to figure out who he looks like for years.
Wow ! This guy can read ? I'll bet these books have a lot of pictures
This “guy” is smarter and has done more investigation than you’ll ever do in your whole life. Read his books before looking stupid here.
@@gabrielamilan5168 What a genius . Killing someone over a tail light . Also love how he talks about these school massacres . The police show up well after the fact
@@gabrielamilan5168 Karen
He forgot to talk about the power of uniforms. The uniform is super important at dehumanizing us. And uniforms are made to look as daunting and romantic as possible. The uniform has to be effective but also really attractive to impressionable teenagers.
Do not wear uniforms
it s not dehuminizing, it s equalizing and unifying.
16:09 Notice how the eyes start to dart around. Clear and obvious sign of lying.
www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-truth-about-lying-its-the-hands-that-betray-you-not-the-eyes-7936522.html
He's the kind of guy that think robocop is a reasonable thing, that all cops should apprehend, charge, judge and execute on the spot, and blame it on what? Survival?! Total and situation-escalating nervousness? That the streets in your own country should be considered a warzone, where you're at war with your citicens. It should not be up to a cop to decide(without even giving it any kind of consideration) if even the worst killer asshole should get his day in court or not. He's a fucking criminal, teaching cops to blatantly ignore the law they're supposed to enforce.
So you're an idiot. We've got that done.
@windson7 >when you've run out of any good argument so you resort to the overdone and weak insult of "bootlicker" when I'm a Libertarian and probably don't believe half the shit you think I believe
What a horrible man. He’s training killer soldiers not public servants. He should be ashamed.
No.
He is training the men that protect you. Do you drive a car? Stop it. You're just as responsible for the violence as the man ordering the bombs or pulling the trigger.
@@fishsmell2570 Protect who? I’m seeing jumpy trigger-happy cops shoot people, unarmed, in the back, as first response to any movement. And they’re trained by this guy! Dangerous, Deranged, Fascistic.
Murder is not as old as Cain and Abel because humans have existed for longer than that. Cain and Abel are myths.
Pretty much
Metaphor
Public servants being indoctrinated by a punk, who never killed.
Okay, armchair theorician, how about you study psychology instead of being smug. How about you take in hundreds if not thousands of clients and listen to their stories?
A punk?
This guy wants cops to kill civilians. He’s the problem with police violence in America.
@@rederickfroders1978 theorician isn’t a word. And training super soldiers so that they lack human compassion when they kill is a ghoulish thing to do and grossman will rot in hell obviously.
@@rederickfroders1978 Grossman having no combat experience is like a virgin teaching sex education. You can watch all the porn you want but it still isn't sex. Meanwhile REAL combat veterans consider him a joke.
This man is one lab accident away from being a super villian. He should not be training police officers.
What a self deluded fruit. He should be dishonorably discharged!
he was an officer at westpoint. what are ur credentials?
I'm not here to make the usual "this guy is bad because he teaches cops" comment. I'm just here to disagree with his studies. First off, I can understand reluctance to killing in situations like shooting POWs, but I can't agree with the context of combat.
First off, if infantrymen were that much reluctant to kill before Vietnam, then why were there so many casualties on Omaha Beach? Why were Japanese soldiers unhesitant to gun down Marines at Iwo Jima? Why were Marines armed with flamethrowers ready to burn alive enemy troops without question? What about the insane casualties on the Eastern Front? Not all deaths were from bombers or artillery.
I find these studies questionable. I can understand remorse after taking a life, but in the moment when your life is at stake, I find that ridiculous. Fighting got very personal at Stalingrad, Bataan, and the hedgerows of Northern France as well. In these situations, if you don't wanna die, you either freeze out of fear and die anyway, or take a chance and fight.
Also, when armies fought with swords and spears, it can be argued that the "shoving matches" in the chaos of melee is due to soldiers being unable to land a killing blow, due to the enemy having shields and armor. Mass casualties took place on routing armies not because the victors were afraid of killing, but because it is far easier to kill off a disorderly mob that has lost morale. There is only a desire to escape danger, not to fight. That's why it is easier for the other side. Let us also not forget that duels to the death existed in the old days.
I hope he gets what he teaches. He is the mindset that gets Blacks unjustly killed.
Got nothing to do with race
@@omart36 Man just because someone doesn't say they're a racist doesn't mean they're not. And if what he teaches to police is harmful to the Black community, we see this as racist.
@@omart36 Stop pretending to be racially neutral. You feel America is for the White man and we as Blacks should shut up about racial injustice or leave.
@@omart36 Just because you think you're not a racist doesn't mean you not. If you conduct yourself like one and say things that make me feel a certain way I conclude you to be a racist.
@@travelingjohn69 I'm not a racist because I don't prefer a certain race over another. I'm politically neutral
This man is a sociopath and has no business training law enforcement.!
Law enforcement has no business being.
Bullshit. I've read his book. He makes alot of sense.
@@normanpotts3169 😂😂😂 he openly teaches LE that they will never have better sex than after killing someone. Associating sex and violence is sociopathic. If he makes sense to you, you’re probably suspect too.
@@johndow8725 where does he say that? I've read "On Killing" which I doubt you have ever read, and he says that nowhere in the book. He doesn't advocate or otherwise condone killing at all.
Sorry but.. Do you really think there are no sociopaths in the army and law enforcement??
Also what is sociopathic about this guy? He's a psychologist, and he isnt particularly pro killing.
He doesnt encourage killing, he doesnt justify it outright, he however argues about WHY it is even justified.
Is that the sign of a sociopaty? If the man would be a greedy businessman that wants to make money with rambling, he couldve taken a more profitable stance.
What are you, an idiocrat?
This is what the army produces. This person has no remorse and should have no place in a Democratic Society. 2021 White House Riots was concentrated with people like this.
Oh....but you don't mention the street thugs conducting the real riots? GTFOH!
Low IQ comment of the video. He's not promoting violence, he's talking about how becoming a trained killer happens and how that is happening to the civilian population. I don't agree with his idea that banning shooter games is going to help, as we see, there is no indication that is actually the issue. He does mention other factors that are legit, like fatherless homes. That is on point and we're seeing that now more than ever.
@@J.B.1982very low