he is technically not in the show (I am sure he is a named extra in Tywin's war council) but Stafford Lannister is an idiot. He is the guy on the opposite side of Robb's Wolf in the Night battle where Robb routed and wrecked a Lannister host not a day from Lannisport. His son Daven is average to above, and in this case that seems to be a significant improvement
Tyrion was brave af. He first saw thousands of men getting killed and furied by his made fire. Then he took the charge of the rest of the lannister forces as a midget i remind you. And was the first one to charge at the enemy. That was furious from all the casualties they had taken. And how the bastard behind those walls satted on mannis's throne. The man single handedly out of pure rage was willing to peneterate the whole lannister army one by one. Till his own men had to drag him to safety. Tyrion never tried to take a glory of saving the city. And Tyrion was taken out by friendly attack by his own sister who hired one of the best sword men at the battle to slaughter a little person.... That is just overkill and he still failed.
Tyrion Blackwater command is epic, you lambast him for cheap tricks, but offer no alternatives. He destroyed a large portion of the opposition fleet, did his best to repel the advance at the shoreline and still got swapped by superior numbers/quality of infantry. The only alternatives was to fall back to the red keep and give up the wall, meaning Tywin would not be able to take them from the rear. Sound planning, maximising strategic advantage, motivational leadership. Everything you would want from a commander. Town watch vs a massive army, once the army makes landfall its all over
Can we also count Theon? He swapped sides because of Daddy issues, charged into Winterfell with a couple of men and believe he could hold it far from the coast, trusted Ramsey. I think the apple doesn’t fall far tree.
I think the plan was genius take winterfell with a few men, secure brandon rickon etc take them back the the iron islands. Theon literally could've won the war for the ironborn in the North.
It's because of his life experience. He was too Ironborn to be a Stark and too Stark to be truly Ironborn. The reason why he clung to Winterfell so much was because he wanted to be a Stark like Robb, not knowing that the Ironborn have no interest in ruling their conquests properly
Ramsay: Do what I want, or I'll kill your beloved brother! Stannis: You take that back! Ramsay: (mockingly) Take what back? Stannis: The "beloved" part. I don't love him and he doesn't love me. It's a lie. Omit it. Ramsay: Uh... Davos: (facepalm)
@@InvertedWIng Stannis: and you're still a bastard. Ramsay: the king says otherwise. Stannis: A bastard says otherwise about another bastard. I am the king. And you are a bastard.
It's sad because book Jon is competent, cunning, and far more ruthless. The only thing that limits him is his bastard status. Show Jon on the other hand is made into a dullard so Sansa among others can look better by comparison. The show essentially gave him a debuff to intelligence.
Pretty much, that how segment is less "look how bad Jon is" and more look how much DND dropped the ball, just out your dam artilary on the walls not in front of them, its a simple ask 😂 thanks for watching George! Liam
I wouldn't say far more ruthless. The cruelest thing he does is still an attempt to save people. Also he has far more flaws than his just his bastard status.
@@fightingmedialounge519 he threatens Sam that he'll burn Gilly's baby if he doesn't take Mance's to Old Town and forces Gilly to hold her hand over a candle flame to drive the point home. He also takes 100 Wildling children as hostages and assures their parents what will happen should the prove disloyal. He takes the advice, "Kill the Boy" very seriously.
@@georgeprchal3924 except the former wad done in an attempt to save mances baby with the hopes that he can keep gillys baby safe as well( did you miss the part of my comment where I literally adressed this?) and the latter is a pretty standard military custom in this setting. Also show Jon takes kill the boy advice literally by killing olly after the latter betrays him. He's more ruthless than his show counterpart, but far more is an exaggeration.
The show did what pretty much all of Hollywood and television has been doing like crazy for the last 10 years: make every woman a Mary Sue and make all the men incompetent in an attempt to empower women in real life. Which is fucking stupid, if you think about it it's really just infantilization. It's a shame, because game of thrones had been the only show really showing how men and women really are without insulting either.
Balon's even worse when you consider, even IF he wanted to do his own thing, not tie himself down to alliances, ignore the geopolitics, attacking the Westerlands is still the best move. If the Starks win, they probably won't give a shit who sits on the Iron Throne and Balon gets to defend his new prizes from disorganized resistance. But if the Starks win, they won't tolerate the Ironborn in the North. And it doesn't matter WHO he attacks if the Lannisters win, Tywin damn well wants his grandkids ruling the SEVEN kingdoms. Like, he literally made the WORST move he could have.
Balon Greyjoy: *Rebelled because he thought the seven kingdoms are too fractured* Also Balon Greyjoy: *Attacked multiple kingdoms at once, giving them a common enemy*
@@ucnguyenanh9414For more reasons than one. Quellon wanted to reform the iron islands and move them away from the old way. He set free thralls, took in maesters and set up trade with the main land. But then Quellon died in the Greyjoy's only move during the rebellion. And Balon immediately undid all of that because Balon prefers old school iron islands.
The real reason is basically all of the Greyjoy’s were dead and no other house had rule the iron islands in centuries, it’s the same reason why he forgave all the high lords who took the crown side’s and let the keep all their lands and titles. It’s just a lot easier to keep the status quo if they bend the knee to him.
Saturday morning cartoon villain Balon: “You’ll rue this day Robert! I’ll be back and next time, you’ll pay!” *shakes fist while slowly sailing away on a longship*
@@TheFandomeClips Dude essentially sold the most easy road to success and power for a petty vengeance on a feud his family started which left him with nothing . All Greyjoys are allergic to Ws .
I always considered edmure actually quite good. Nothing exceptional, but solid. The mistake he gets grilled for was Robb and the Bkackfishes fault for not informing him about their plan. And edmure did an impressive defence of the river lands. He held the crossing, he won at the mill, he defended River run from the siege. He was talented enough to pit both twin and the mountain on the back foot everytime they came to arms. I belive had he been told of the plan to allow them to cross he would have handled it pretty well
Hes not the worst by a long shot but I do think that mistake with Riverun could have been very costly, thank the seven for House Vance and Manderly holding firm along side him! Thanks for watching Oliver! Liam
@@TheFandomeClipsI kind of disagree on it being a mistake. Protecting his population is basically the purpose of a lord in a feudal system. In a more realistic setting than GOT this would get him some good popularity with the people he was keeping safe. Oh militarily it made his job harder, but the only way to make it easier is by ignoring half the real job of his army and thinking defeating the enemy is the only thing.
@@neodigremo I agree. It's kind of admirable that he sees past short-term military advantages and takes care of the long-term stability of the realm and his subjects.
@@ari3903 more he is one of the few nobles actually doing his job instead of playing the game of thrones and treating his subjects like a resource he gets to spend. Which yes does aid in long term stability in the realm. Honestly Westeros is overdue a good old fashioned peasants revolt that does more than kill Dragons. I mean in England we had several when the lords became tyrannical.
On Edmure, the show shit on him none stop and I just don't get it. Culminating in Sansa telling the poor guy to "Please sit" And 99% of the fan base thinks that's one of the greatest moments in the series. And I (usually alone) think "Why is it wrong for him to make a case to be king." He's won battle and protected the innocent, doesn't mean he'd be the BEST king but he'd be an okay King. What makes BRAN a better king than Edmure? Literally nothing (Edmure even has a better story). WTF show!
Counterpoint to Edmure letting the peasants inside the castle, that is the most basic agreement of the feudal contract. If he didn't do that, his men, who are a force of conscripted peasants, would have drowned him in the river.
@@movieclipsvideos1781in reality its different tho. Westeros is a feudal society. If he wouldnt let peasents into a fief then after the battle literall all his workers fsrmers etc would go to any other kingdom and ask if they can work for the lord there in exchange for protection. Its like today if a country gets attacked the militarry has to go and fight. If the millitarry say no we dont want then the ppl will slaughter the mililitarry because its useless if it doesnt do what its suppossed to do
In historical records it was always a sign of desperation and tragedy for the besieged if they forced the civilians out to hold on a little longer, often they rather either surrendered together or died together.
As do we my friend, as do we. This whole vid is less "look at these bad commanders" and more "look how little dnd understands medievial warfare" at least for Jon, poor guy did not deserve to make the cut on this end 😂 thank you so much for stopping by IA! Liam
John is the illegitimate son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. He could very well blame him harder for being the direct cause of the fall of the Targeryans (and yes Polygamy was no longer allowed so since Elia was not divorced he never legitimately married Lyanna whatever ceremony he had)
Surprised The Mountain wasnt brought up. Even the people that were like minded in his cruelty confessed that his way if commanding was pretty bad. And unless im mistaken- his forces got thrashed quite a bit.
Hes bad but he seems to do some serious damage even when he gets knocked about, and I think that's all he's meant to do 😂 not sure who he'd replace on the list but a great suggestion Jaynguin 👍 Thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClipsTyrion the reason for this is that tyrion can become a great commander as he is quite smart he just needs training and more experience he wouldn't be as great as rob or robert who are naturally gifted and trained since thier Childhood he still could have become a competent commander
Poor Jon got hit with the big dumb-dumb stick like the rest of the cast the moment they ran out of books. I always figured he was a pretty good commander and gave the Battle of The Bastards the benefit of the doubt because hey-he was running with all he could scrounge up at the time, Sansa was being the textbook definition of unhelpful at the time with her advice and keeping the Knights of The Vale to herself (which even Sophie Turner admitted was because Sansa wanted the credit first and foremost), and his brother's life was on the line... -and then Winterfell happened and turned the entire fanbase into armchair Pattons picking apart the defense's battle plan. RIP Smart Jon, he was taken from us too soon.
I mean you don't need to be an armchair general to pick apart some of those choices, the biggest two for me are the catapults and the cavalry. You can in some cases justify having the bulk infantry in front of the walls, long as you've got plenty of ditches dug, but what a waste of a great flanking unit and perfectly good artillery 😂
Of all the commanders we've seen in this show, the title of "worst", at least to me, has to go to Ramsay. Sure, in the one battle we saw him in he was winning until he got caught off-guard by unexpected reinforcements, but as far as I'm concerned, ordering a volley of arrows on your own forces, even if it's in-character for him, is just a bottom-tier military move in my eyes. I don't care how many men he has to spare, knowingly sacrificing your own to hurt the enemy is just plain bad leadership, no matter what way you slice it 😠
It was done historically believe it or not Jeremy my man, but only in extremely rare cases, 99 percent of the time your asking to get a knife in the back for such a tactic 😂
I would disagree, Ramsey is a decent commander, sure he's not a lead the ground army type he's more of the stealth ops type & his plan did defeat Stannis before they even arrived at Winterfell & should've defeated John if not for d&d giving John stupid amounts of plot armour.
I feel like Balon didn’t even get the timing right because he attacked the North BEFORE making a deal with Tywin and he only reached out to Tywin after the Battle of the Blackwater was over and the Lannisters were in a much stronger position. Tywin even said, “Why do I have to give him anything, when he has done everything I wanted for Free.”
Haha I can just imagine Roberts face "Your Grace we're being attacked, half your kingdom is on fire" "Whose behind this attack?" "Balon Greyjoy your grace, why? Do you wish to kill him yourself" "No I need to know where to send the thank you gifts" 😂 Thanks for watching crazy Scotsmen! Liam
I’d say Aegon the Uncrowned was pretty stupid. A young, inexperienced commander with a young and smaller dragon challenges his older, battle hardened, uncle with Balerion. Doesn’t work on paper let alone on the field
I compare Jon Snow to George Washington in that they were bad commanders, but solid leaders in that they could get people to follow them, despite terrible odds. Meanwhile, their strategies and planning often failed against their enemies. Washington had intended force the British into fighting block-by-block in order to take New York, but failed to adequately defend Harlem Heights from General Howe. Jon faced similarly hopeless situations with the Battle of Castle Black, Hardhome and the Battle of the Bastards: The Wall made Mance's forces a non-issue with exceptions to the Giants and Mammoths. A simple raid by Tormund and his freefolk on the southside of the Wall nearly crippled Castle Black. Hardhome was an impossible situation where Jon's forces could only take delaying actions, buying time to allow as many freefolk to board the ships as possible before the beach was overwhelmed. Then, the reality of the situation set in with all of the casualties left at Hardhome rising up to join the Night King's army. Jon's mistakes at the Battle of the Bastards were blatant with him abandoning his plan and nearly getting all of his men killed when encircled by Ramsay's Tower Shield infantry. The real-world comparison for this would have been the Battle of Cannae but reversed, with the enveloping forces having the initial numerical advantage. Now, I feel Ramsay should have been on this list for his screwups at the Battle of the Bastards. Friendly-Fire losses from his archers cost him the battle. Had he simply maintained his volley of arrows to eliminate Jon Snow and adopted a defensive formation to counter Jon's smaller cavalry, the Battle of the Bastards would have been a Bolton victory, with the Knights of the Vale only arriving in time to see the flaying.
Jon wasn't in command at Castle Black. The Battle of the Bastards was just Leroy Jenkins shenanigans and Sansa deliberately trying to kill off Jon and all those who supported him.
We don't know how good he is my friend, the battles he commands, he was purposefully losing and spending other houses forces, so its hard to count that against him. He's a cold and intelligent pyschopath though and happy to spend lives so I'd wager hes probably actually quite decent! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips Agreed he is pretty smart in how he chips down Robb’s loyal forces excluding his own men. I’d put him above the people on this list I think he’d just miss the best commanders in Westeros list.
i think jon is far better then hes ultimately portrayed in the show. The wall was a great feat, in the show at winterfell against ramsay he made a very smart and detailed battle plan as they discussed to win with their smaller numbers and pull ramsay into an all out attack like he did on stannis, only messing this plan up because of ramsays incredible use of mental warfare tactics. However the battle of winterfell i cant defend, it was just stupidity from the showrunners having no idea how medieval warfare works. However using the dragons to surround winterfell in a ring of fire was an amazing move and hunting the night king to destroy the entire army of the dead was also smart. just not enough back up plans
Oh for sure, Jons place is definitely more "let's crap on dnd some more" than anything else. Book Jon is 1:0 so far and he likely won't face Ramsey so as long as he does well at Winterfell (if he makes it to Winterfell) I will be very happy i was wrong about this placement :) thanks for watching! Liam
You know all this is really convinced me is that you actually need to make a version of the how would the Greyjoys win video that isn't in April fool's joke
In the works buddy, though I can't give any details as Thom is taking the wheel on it, he's braver than me, its a bloody hard mode challenge 😂 thanks for watching fear the pig! Liam
that's a rough job and all it depends on who's objectives you go for. If you just want petty revenge on Ned Stark (who is dead mind you) and independence for your realm (Baelon) If you just want indepenance for the realm and to reave for riches (Vic) If you want independance for your realm and to establish better ties to the mainland thus making your ability to garner resources easier (Asha) If you want... whatever bloody nightmare Euron wants. First you have to pin down which Greyjoy faction you are picking.
Side with the White Walkers and let them destroy everything on the mainland. Between the Iron Fleet and the head White Walker they killed two dragons so Danarys would have trouble with both.
I'd say Cersei was more of a ruler than a commander, she never did any leadership in a military context, otherwise yeah I'd agree with you, Cersei is useless 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
Geoffrey does have some great ideas about having a well trained standing army loyal to the crown rather than the traditional levy system of the medieval era
@@TheFandomeClips You need a very strong tax system to make it work. The Romans had it, the modern world has it, but the Medieval kingdoms most definitely had it *not* .
Tyrion did well preparing for the siege of King's Landing, you got that right. But the sorties were a classic blunder of trying to do too much--Stannis, for example, would have husbanded his garrison until the relieving army showed up. It appears Tyrion merely sent out the parties just for the sake of doing something. Edmure should have never been in charge of a large force. There's not much more to say, he's a victim of the Peter Principle via high birth. Lame Harry Strickland is a bureaucrat. He appears to have been an excellent quartermaster and knowing logistics is an important attribute for any commander...but he showed no aptitude in either practice or theory of warfare. The books imply that the only reason he's Captain of the Golden Company is to function as a prudent figurehead until (f)Aegon was ready assume control. Jon's tenure as Lord Commander is actually quite fascinating. Too bad DnD thought it would be boring and neutered that whole arc. Balon Greyjoy is perhaps the greatest military missmind of his generation. Only a true paragon of insipidity would wage total war with pinpricks against 85 percent of the Westeros. His second run at kingship is somehow even stupider--he saw an opportunity to seize some rocky shores and thought that was worth risking everything. Seriously what was his plan here? What did he think he could actually accomplish?
😂 many a ASOIAF fan has tried to figure that out warlord 😂 people try their best to come up with some complex explanation but its an occums razor situation, he's simply an idiot 😂 Thanks for watching as always warlord! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips My problem with his inclusion is that he did at least correctly identify the biggest weakness and do his best to defend it. The problem is that he was just outmanned and against Stannis, a much more experienced and skilled commander. . Yes, he overestimated how well the tricks would work, but that's because it's theory versus reality and experience. If Tyrion sits and does nothing though, what's to stop Stannis from just breaking down the mud gates and taking the city?
You weren't harsh enough on the battle of Winterfell. You called the Dothraki cavalry "shock troops" but what they really are is scouting/skirmishing cavalry due to their light(no) armor and agility. Shock cavalry would be fully armored knights with lances. So it's even worse to blindly charge light cavalry into a zombie army than to use knights.
Look Jacob i was trying to give them some leeway mate ok? 😂 its already too easy to dunk on the strategic and tactical decisions made in that battle and I like to I'm a nice guy 😂 your not wrong though, thanks for watching! Liam
To be fair, the Wildfire trap killed A LOT of Stannis's soldiers and destroyed ~2/3-3/4 of his ships, which is not only disastrous for Stannis in the long run (regardless of how the battle turns-out,_ but also meant that they had hardly any ships to bring Stannis's army from the other side of the river to the city. Had all of those ships still been in commission, there would have been more than 10,000 soldiers at the city gates rather than a couple of thousand. As it was, the bulk of Stannis's army was still on the other side of the river when Tywin and the Tyrell army arrived. The wildfire, even more than attacking the soldiers as soon as they land to drive to drive them back into the river, was Tyrioin punching WAY above his weight (his military strategy weight that is. Not a comment on his size.)
Give Tyrion credit. His planning saved Kings Landing...from Stannis...in the Battle of the Blackwater. And he led from the front in actual battle. The rest of the time he was more of a consiglieri, than a battle planner.
I mean Tyrion did everything non-personnel-related to prepare King's Landing for the attack, because getting more soldiers was the one thing he couldn't do anything about, because his side's whole army was occupied in the Riverlands at the time
I'd argue Edmure's biggest mistake was pulling out the garrison in the Twins that was meant to keep Walder Frey in line. While yes, the Freys were fighting for Robb and made some sacrifices, they only did that after they strong-armed a bunch of concessions from the North.
They say it's better to be lucky than good. Jon Snow is the proof of that, especially on the show, he falls ass backwards into winning battles he should clearly lose by luck alone. The battle at the wall was his only success and it was just "lucky" the Wildlings didn't come in full force. An every battle after that was 100% he only survives by luck.
Balon's obsession with the old way doomed him from the beginning. So focused on the destination and only sparing a glance at the difficult path to get there. Not to mention his beef with the Starks is kind of unfounded. I recall when Theon returns and Theon says Robb considers him a brother. Balon replies. "This son of the man who put your true brothers to the sword." When if you look back. That is not at all true. Rodrik Greyjoy was killed by Jason Mallister. While Maron Greyjoy was killed when the tower he was in collapsed from trebuchet fire during the siege of Pyke. So yeah, Ned is not at all responsible for the stuff Balon claims.
Here's another issue with Jon: As Commander of the Stark loyalists against Ramsey... staying alive is kinda important. So what does he do? Abandon his army and run off toward the enemy archers while trying to save your little brother, whom you thought didn't exist anymore The pro if you save him? Brother points and honor The cons if you die in the attempt: The entire point of rebelling is gone and your army is almost certainly doomed.
While it was mostly portrayed as comedic relief, Tyrion's diplomacy with the Hill Tribes was brilliant strategy on his part. He was able to unite tribes that did not like each other and use them to win at Green Fork. However, more importantly, he found a way to destabilize the Vale. One of the biggest obstacles with conquest is not just winning, but what happens after you win. Tyrion and Tywin both know that capturing the Vale is a massive waste of resources. By giving the Hill Tribes steel, they end up creating a perpetual, de facto insurgency that will consume the Vale's resources. Since the Hill Tribes are their own separate entity the Lannisters aren't obligated to re-enforce them or be held responsible for their actions. Another bonus is since the Hill Tribes are too simple to form much of any strategy or diplomacy, they are never a threat but instead a thorn to an enemy. This tactic also has real life implications. Often times countries can't deploy troops for financial or political reasons, so they instead provide support to insurgents that do the work for them.
Honestly Tyrion isn't that bad of a commander (Joffery helped him make the list in all honesty) , he's just not great, he really does have his moments like the hill tribes you mention and the wild fire, all brilliant ideas, he just doesn't seem to have much to fall back on when his tricks have done what they can do. Thanks for watching my lord of wolf! Liam
They did Edmure so dirty in the show. Especially when it comes to Hoster Tully’s funeral. In the book it’s clear he’s missing the shots due to grief, and he isn’t shamed for it.
If it wasn't for the initial wildfire attack enough men would have made it to shore to take the walls before tywin got there. This was such a close clinch that even the hound leaving the field risked their chances. Every single action counted so much
On edmure, what would you have him do with the civilians? Part of being a commander is also keeping your armies morale high. And if the families of those soldiers are outside or riverrun while they sit safe, that's basicly begging for mutany.
I'd say Tywin should be on the list. His only notable victory was against the Reynes and Tarbecks. He lost every battle he ever fought against Robb, a green boy as he called him. He lost the entire Lannister fleet to Victarion Greyjoy in the Greyjoy Rebellion and he completely sat out Robert's Rebellion. I never understood why he was so hyped up. His greatest accomplishment seems to be using the power of Casterly Rock and the rest of the Westerlands to fight 2 minor houses. The only other accomplishment I can think of is keeping the peace with The Mad King on the throne, but Jon Arryn oversaw years of peace as well.
I thought in the books the plan Edmure messed up was going to go after Tywin and it was changed to the Mountain in the show. I thought they had Tywin in position to engage and try to beat him but Edmure messes it up and Tywin gets to leave and go Kings Landing to help with Stannis. I remember it very well. I hope I'm not wrong, because i remember this clearly and if I'm wrong I might be crazy.
lol, on the topic of “in defense of jon”, book jon has so far only commanded the defense of the wall I. Which he made excellent use of limited resources and held his troops in optimal positions where they could support eachother and held the love and loyalty of many among his men. Show Jon is literally not even close to the same person, like a genuine separate character that just happens to share the same name.
Very true hes 1:0 in the books and I honestly hope he stays that way. Or at the very least he puts his bloody catapults on the walls instead if in front of them 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
For the love of the seven gods Jon for the battle of winterfell you should have had the Dothraki and other Calvary units stationed a mile or two south of winterfell in the woods somewhere. Misandrea shows up to do that flaming sword trick for them, and then they go ride out around the horde of the undead there using the speed of your horses take down the edges of the horde. With the Dothraki riding around the edge of the horde, Jon and Danny could have seen them better from above and then used the dragons to burn a lot more of the horde down. Trying to have more of the air battle with the night king down around the castle area.
We know Tony, we were just using Jon as a way to dunk on DnD, in the books he's 1:0 for commanding a battle, hopefully his record stays clean! Thanks for watching! Liam
Geoffrey was right when he said there should be one army only that's loyal to the crown. I forgot who said the same thing later in the series but my boy G doesn't get any love.
Yeah, I think Balon wanted to get rid of Robbs army by capturing Moat Cailin, to hold them off from returning north. Though his forces there (under Victarion) then had to deal with the Crannogmen of the Neck, who constantly harassed them with their Guerilla tactics. Meanwhile Asha captured Deepwood Motte, bringing the Lady and heirs back to the Iron Islands. And Theon (together with Aeron) were only meant to raid the coastline. So I don't think Balon wanted all of the North, just cut himself a piece of it.
Awesome! Couldn't agree more! Jon is a shit military tactician. His greatest strength is as a leader in general: his ability to unite people and make them back his cause. If Stannis could borrow a bit of that quality, he would be unbeatable. And THANK YOU for doing Edmure justice. If the show did anyone dirty, it was Edmure. Rob was an idiot for not telling him the plan (or just the gist of it), and just exopcting him to sit idle by in his castle while the Mountain slaughtered his people.
Aye Jon is like Tywin, but on the other end of the scale of morality, a great leader, but not a great military leader. I hated the glory seeking show depiction of Edmure so much, he's not the butt of a joke, he's just a sweet guy who wants to defend his people and he's not horrific at command, he's just unsuitable for ruthless decisions because of his compassion. Thanks for watching Maikenlsten! Liam
Top 5 are 5) R. Baratheon 4) R. Stark 3) Stannis 2) Tarly 1) Khal Drogo. Honorable mentions are Grey Worm Ned Stark, Tyrion Euron Greyjoy and Barristan Selmy
I would argue that the attack on the wall was actually not a test in the show cus otherwise he wouldnt have probably lit up the whole forest so the others from the other side could attack at the same time its clear they expected to win that that day it doesnt make sense to have the king of the giants go attack if you just wanna test defences and also to use the one time suprise attack advantage from the other side of the wall its clear this was not jsut testing but they wanted to take over
“Hold the Line my Brother is already dead” DAMN I think you just got me to favor Stannis Also the Iron Islands trying to fight practically all of Westeros has in my eyes some parallels to Japan in WW2 as they tried to fight China and Practically all Pacific nations and while they started off doing good things they eventually got clobbered
Thanks Kyle always great to see you in the comments. I never looked at it that way but your right, its definitely a case of code taking precident over efficiency, both for those who are too noble and those who are too ruthless. Thanks for watching as always mate! Liam
I never understood why the giant wasn’t better outfitted and utilized, imagine a giant with any sort of armor and some giant sword and shield or like you said a bow.
Funny that if those 5 (or 6 in this case) worst commanders were to work together (or fused into 1 commander) they would actually be a half way decent commander (not great of course but they'd be a problem for a lot of Factions to deal with), a forward thinking (Joffery), caring (Edmure), charismatic (John), trickery (Tyrion), opportunist (Balon) commander that's not afraid to fight dirty. Together they'd would a problem for most commanders (assuming we're only fusing the best parts of each of these 6 together), but sadly the ego's (aka Joffery & Balon) would never agree to work together.
Very good point Hatter! I love that about GRRMs work no character comes without rough to go with the smooth, it just for these guys they have a bad rough to smooth ratio 😂
Tyrion definitely did a great job with what he had available. He didn't ask for that battle, he would have gladly handed off the responsibility of command to his brother Jaime, or his Uncle Kevan had either of them been present at the time.
Off topic, but what do you think would have happened if instead of treating with the freys to attempt to get to kings landing quickly, he treated with the ironborn, using Theon-a moot piece I know- and his mother a descent negotiator to bring the iron islands into the fold. Is the Asha-Robb betrothal feasible way to victory or just a quicker way to the red wedding?
I think it could have been a game changer Jack! With the iron born navy, Rob can do a Stannis and say screw you to land blockades and obstacles and sail straight to the coast of any region he wants to attack. The issue is if Rob forsakes his oath to Asha/Yara. It was a massive slap in the face to the Freys, it would be nothing short of a haymaker to Balon, at least The Freys were initially indifferent to etheir side, the alliance between Balon and Rob would be walking a tightrope for a very long time before the trust was solidified. The Freys wouldn't give a crap to be honest, they wanted to be left in peace until Rob wanted to use that bridge. Thanks for watching! Liam
I so love this channel for the Stannis respect. He always was my favorite and then when the show came out I wanted everyone to see how great he was. We all know how that turned out...
The Mannis will always be the One True King in our eyes Matt. Take heart for the night is dark and full of terrors, but the One True King will light the way! Thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips Appreciate that very mutch. Flashy clothes and being pompous do not make a great king. Having the strength to do whats right in the worst circumstances does.
Somehow daenerys managed to escape this list. Having giant weapons of mass destruction in the form of dragons, and forgetting about the massive iron fleet that is guarding the capital city you are trying to take, is typically very obvious to be a major failure in ability to command and lead an army.
The worst Commanders in Westeros: • Balon Greyjoy - Rose in rebellion twice; quelled once, killed second • Rhaegar Targaryen - you do not protect your Queen or your kingdom by sacrificing yourself in a one-on-one. The Battle of the Trident, should have been a skirmish -- the Crown Prince was far outnumbered for battle • Gerold Hightower, he held to his vow at the Tower of Joy, but holding to a 3 vs 11 is folly. He should have moved Lyanna Stark in carriage with a wetnurse to allied territory when he heard Stark forces were coming • Robb Stark (in alliances, command judgement, and in winning a battle at the cost of 1/10 his total force - 2000 Northmen) • Theon Greyjoy - thinking he can hold Winterfell with 20 Ironmen from a seige of Northmen • Melisandre - de facto commander of Stannis' forces - follows battle tenets according to her faith, and when things go wrong, she shift blame and lights the accused on fire • Beric Dondarrion - he might have won the melee at the Hand's Tourney, but if you get killed 6 times in battle, you suck as a commander
As a Greyjoy loyalist I absolutely agree. His romanticized version of the old ways are far long gone one the isolation didn't help either. Sure he wasn't the sharpest but I'd say bitterness and a sprinkle of madness made him do unwise decisions. Adding to that is his inability to compromise. May it be Robb's offer of Casterly Rock or Tyrion's (obvious fake offer) of Myrcella being married to Theon, Balon wouldn't have agreed. His death was far overdue. Thank you Euron, very cool
Its the same reason that many generals got a shock in ww1, those stuck in the old ways got so many of their troops killed Got to move with the times baley boy 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
5:28 actually the feudal system was superior prior to the invention of gunpowder. even the eastern roman empire adtoped a feudal system and it greatly improved their effectiveness at defending their empire. feudalism was not a backwards step from centralised militaries, it was a forward step. until gunpowder changed the game.
Just think if Tormund had reached up and snatched Jon off the horse before he could throw everyone's lives away. I think Wild Rickon would have had more gazelle-like zig-zag movements and if Ramsey had been a little more book-like(dumber) he might have got out of bow range with the lead Ramsey gave him.
What I don’t get is that their is no lord of Moat Cailin so it was just like empty for Vicky to stroll into. The key to the north! That’s a whole I can fill
I love the continuing topic, but Jon gets hit a bit hard don’t you think. it’s not fair to hold anything after season 5 against his character for obvious reasons and Book Snow is more politically savvy and plans his future moves a lot more. Plus would any other leader before him have crossed the wall to deal with the “wildlings” and Hardhome. As for Baylon😂 you are so spot on. He could have gotten Danny, partnered with the Dragon Queen and attacked the 7 kingdoms from port to port. He has all those ships and she needed ships 🤦
Haha yeah I prefer to see Jons spot more as a "let dump on Dnd some more" session 😂 in the books he's doing alright, he's 1:0 and he likely won't face Ramsey, let's just hope he makes it to winterfell so his book version can redeem his show counterpart, put the artillary on the walls and dig some ditches thats all I ask 😂 tks for watching as always Trey! Liam
Tyrion needed to make a move. The wildfire was necessary otherwise stannis' force wouldve taken kings landing quickly. Also tyrions chain was praised as a brilliant move
We don't know yet, he's a 16 year old boy so he doesn't have much experience or deeds in this regard and we only have his commanding of the wall to go on, Stannis should actually get TBOTB in the books so Jon won't mess up there and I'm sure George knows a bit more about battles than DnD so if Jon makes it to the long night he should at least be a little better if not perfect in comparison to the show. But as of now he's got a clean record at 1:0 😂 so he's doing well! thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClipsit's just the planning he had for coming winter and how he planned to use loans from the Iron Bank to buy food and supplies for the coming winter plus trying to build glass gardens and how to manned most Castles on the wall with freefolk under command of a officer from Nights Watch was pretty impressive for a 16 year old
Was there anyone we missed? Were we to harsh?
he is technically not in the show (I am sure he is a named extra in Tywin's war council) but Stafford Lannister is an idiot. He is the guy on the opposite side of Robb's Wolf in the Night battle where Robb routed and wrecked a Lannister host not a day from Lannisport. His son Daven is average to above, and in this case that seems to be a significant improvement
Why didn’t you include how Jon handled the Battle of Wall in the Books, I think he did a far better job there
@@AliensInTheChaquetrix We did, we weren't dunking on him for the wall battle and said he did a great job there in both the books and show.
Tyrion was brave af. He first saw thousands of men getting killed and furied by his made fire. Then he took the charge of the rest of the lannister forces as a midget i remind you. And was the first one to charge at the enemy. That was furious from all the casualties they had taken. And how the bastard behind those walls satted on mannis's throne. The man single handedly out of pure rage was willing to peneterate the whole lannister army one by one. Till his own men had to drag him to safety. Tyrion never tried to take a glory of saving the city. And Tyrion was taken out by friendly attack by his own sister who hired one of the best sword men at the battle to slaughter a little person.... That is just overkill and he still failed.
Tyrion Blackwater command is epic, you lambast him for cheap tricks, but offer no alternatives.
He destroyed a large portion of the opposition fleet, did his best to repel the advance at the shoreline and still got swapped by superior numbers/quality of infantry.
The only alternatives was to fall back to the red keep and give up the wall, meaning Tywin would not be able to take them from the rear.
Sound planning, maximising strategic advantage, motivational leadership. Everything you would want from a commander.
Town watch vs a massive army, once the army makes landfall its all over
Can we also count Theon? He swapped sides because of Daddy issues, charged into Winterfell with a couple of men and believe he could hold it far from the coast, trusted Ramsey. I think the apple doesn’t fall far tree.
But whoever kills that fucking hornblower will stand in bronze upon the shores of Pyke!
I think the plan was genius take winterfell with a few men, secure brandon rickon etc take them back the the iron islands. Theon literally could've won the war for the ironborn in the North.
It's because of his life experience. He was too Ironborn to be a Stark and too Stark to be truly Ironborn. The reason why he clung to Winterfell so much was because he wanted to be a Stark like Robb, not knowing that the Ironborn have no interest in ruling their conquests properly
You've got to admit he gave a great inspirational speech right before his ass got knocked out😅
@@thomasdevine5202 if his men didn't turn on him, it would have been great and inspirational. It was apparently... not.
In the books joffrey actually wasn’t scared one bit and fully unaware of the danger they were in, another sign of his possible psychopathy
I remember the scene of him firing the antler men from catapults 😂 hes definitely got a screw loose somewhere. Thanks for watching weeoth! Liam
@@TheFandomeClipswhich Varys orchestrated and Tyrion fell for like an idiot god the story was strong then.
When it comes to holding back from saving his brothers, Stannis has the advantage in that he hates all of his brothers' guts.
😂 Very true
Ramsey: I'm going to kill your brothers
Stannis: Not if I shadow baby them first 😂
Thanks for watching InvertedWing! Liam
Ramsay: Do what I want, or I'll kill your beloved brother!
Stannis: You take that back!
Ramsay: (mockingly) Take what back?
Stannis: The "beloved" part. I don't love him and he doesn't love me. It's a lie. Omit it.
Ramsay: Uh...
Davos: (facepalm)
@@InvertedWIng
Stannis: and you're still a bastard.
Ramsay: the king says otherwise.
Stannis: A bastard says otherwise about another bastard. I am the king. And you are a bastard.
Stannis: Archers
Soldier: Sir, at this distance we won’t be able to hit Ramsay
Stannis: They’re not aiming for Ramsay
He didn't hate Renly and he only hated Bobby. B because he thought he was betrayed when in reality Bobby. B was just following targaryen tradition
It's sad because book Jon is competent, cunning, and far more ruthless. The only thing that limits him is his bastard status.
Show Jon on the other hand is made into a dullard so Sansa among others can look better by comparison.
The show essentially gave him a debuff to intelligence.
Pretty much, that how segment is less "look how bad Jon is" and more look how much DND dropped the ball, just out your dam artilary on the walls not in front of them, its a simple ask 😂 thanks for watching George! Liam
I wouldn't say far more ruthless. The cruelest thing he does is still an attempt to save people. Also he has far more flaws than his just his bastard status.
@@fightingmedialounge519 he threatens Sam that he'll burn Gilly's baby if he doesn't take Mance's to Old Town and forces Gilly to hold her hand over a candle flame to drive the point home. He also takes 100 Wildling children as hostages and assures their parents what will happen should the prove disloyal. He takes the advice, "Kill the Boy" very seriously.
@@georgeprchal3924 except the former wad done in an attempt to save mances baby with the hopes that he can keep gillys baby safe as well( did you miss the part of my comment where I literally adressed this?) and the latter is a pretty standard military custom in this setting. Also show Jon takes kill the boy advice literally by killing olly after the latter betrays him. He's more ruthless than his show counterpart, but far more is an exaggeration.
The show did what pretty much all of Hollywood and television has been doing like crazy for the last 10 years: make every woman a Mary Sue and make all the men incompetent in an attempt to empower women in real life. Which is fucking stupid, if you think about it it's really just infantilization. It's a shame, because game of thrones had been the only show really showing how men and women really are without insulting either.
Balon's even worse when you consider, even IF he wanted to do his own thing, not tie himself down to alliances, ignore the geopolitics, attacking the Westerlands is still the best move. If the Starks win, they probably won't give a shit who sits on the Iron Throne and Balon gets to defend his new prizes from disorganized resistance. But if the Starks win, they won't tolerate the Ironborn in the North. And it doesn't matter WHO he attacks if the Lannisters win, Tywin damn well wants his grandkids ruling the SEVEN kingdoms. Like, he literally made the WORST move he could have.
I like how some people try to find some hidden brilliance in his plan, but the truth is he's nothing but an idiot, that's all there is to it 😂
Balon Greyjoy: *Rebelled because he thought the seven kingdoms are too fractured*
Also Balon Greyjoy: *Attacked multiple kingdoms at once, giving them a common enemy*
😂 some people theorise that he was a secret genius, but I think its plain to see he was just an idiot lol
@@TheFandomeClips Quellon Greyjoy must've been rolling in his grave
@@ucnguyenanh9414For more reasons than one. Quellon wanted to reform the iron islands and move them away from the old way. He set free thralls, took in maesters and set up trade with the main land. But then Quellon died in the Greyjoy's only move during the rebellion. And Balon immediately undid all of that because Balon prefers old school iron islands.
@@philippeblais8594 Balon wasn't even good at it.
I always thought that Robert spared Balon because he was hoping balon would start another Rebellion (so Robert can fight a war again)
Its certainly a valid theory 😂
That's true Brotherhood, right there.
The real reason is basically all of the Greyjoy’s were dead and no other house had rule the iron islands in centuries, it’s the same reason why he forgave all the high lords who took the crown side’s and let the keep all their lands and titles. It’s just a lot easier to keep the status quo if they bend the knee to him.
Saturday morning cartoon villain Balon: “You’ll rue this day Robert! I’ll be back and next time, you’ll pay!” *shakes fist while slowly sailing away on a longship*
I love the dumping on Balon. He is the worst and deserves more hate.
Our only regret is we couldn't roast him harder, I'm sure there's a channel out there up to that monumental task 😉
@@TheFandomeClips When it comes to Balon, I am sure Hodor would have been better.
@@TheFandomeClips
Dude essentially sold the most easy road to success and power for a petty vengeance on a feud his family started which left him with nothing .
All Greyjoys are allergic to Ws .
It never gets old😆
I’m always here for shitting on the Greyjoys.
I always considered edmure actually quite good. Nothing exceptional, but solid. The mistake he gets grilled for was Robb and the Bkackfishes fault for not informing him about their plan. And edmure did an impressive defence of the river lands. He held the crossing, he won at the mill, he defended River run from the siege. He was talented enough to pit both twin and the mountain on the back foot everytime they came to arms. I belive had he been told of the plan to allow them to cross he would have handled it pretty well
Hes not the worst by a long shot but I do think that mistake with Riverun could have been very costly, thank the seven for House Vance and Manderly holding firm along side him! Thanks for watching Oliver! Liam
@@TheFandomeClipsI kind of disagree on it being a mistake. Protecting his population is basically the purpose of a lord in a feudal system. In a more realistic setting than GOT this would get him some good popularity with the people he was keeping safe.
Oh militarily it made his job harder, but the only way to make it easier is by ignoring half the real job of his army and thinking defeating the enemy is the only thing.
@@neodigremo I agree. It's kind of admirable that he sees past short-term military advantages and takes care of the long-term stability of the realm and his subjects.
@@ari3903 more he is one of the few nobles actually doing his job instead of playing the game of thrones and treating his subjects like a resource he gets to spend. Which yes does aid in long term stability in the realm.
Honestly Westeros is overdue a good old fashioned peasants revolt that does more than kill Dragons. I mean in England we had several when the lords became tyrannical.
Balon Greyjoy takes the first place for sure. Man doesn't have a good choice to his name.
On Edmure, the show shit on him none stop and I just don't get it. Culminating in Sansa telling the poor guy to "Please sit" And 99% of the fan base thinks that's one of the greatest moments in the series. And I (usually alone) think "Why is it wrong for him to make a case to be king."
He's won battle and protected the innocent, doesn't mean he'd be the BEST king but he'd be an okay King. What makes BRAN a better king than Edmure? Literally nothing (Edmure even has a better story). WTF show!
Edmure is just a sweet guy in the books, I hate how they twist him into this ambitious idiot 🙄
Counterpoint to Edmure letting the peasants inside the castle, that is the most basic agreement of the feudal contract. If he didn't do that, his men, who are a force of conscripted peasants, would have drowned him in the river.
Counter to the counter: a great leader encourages sacrifice, if your men trust the enemies more than you it ain't great
@@movieclipsvideos1781in reality its different tho. Westeros is a feudal society. If he wouldnt let peasents into a fief then after the battle literall all his workers fsrmers etc would go to any other kingdom and ask if they can work for the lord there in exchange for protection. Its like today if a country gets attacked the militarry has to go and fight. If the millitarry say no we dont want then the ppl will slaughter the mililitarry because its useless if it doesnt do what its suppossed to do
In historical records it was always a sign of desperation and tragedy for the besieged if they forced the civilians out to hold on a little longer, often they rather either surrendered together or died together.
i miss the experience of watching this show and feeling like i'm in the GoT universe
As do we my friend, as do we. This whole vid is less "look at these bad commanders" and more "look how little dnd understands medievial warfare" at least for Jon, poor guy did not deserve to make the cut on this end 😂 thank you so much for stopping by IA! Liam
Same... sad but true, it's a wild thing, looking back throughout time
I can’t believe you only have 13k subscribers, that Jon and GreyWorm impression at 10:27 was hilarious.
Thanks Steve 😂 I think I got Greyworm close.....ish, Jon was just me doing an impression of one of my RL friends. Thanks for watching! Liam
for real
It's always so funny to me how much Ser Allister hated him. Just imagine his reaction had he learned about Jon's true parents and heritage.
😂 I still somehow think he would have found a reason to hate him. That was a friendship that was never meant to be 😂 thanks for watching Chryl! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips
Oh yeah, he hated Jon with a passion 😅
He'd be in for a surprise, much like everyone else... and then, yeah, back to hating him
John is the illegitimate son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. He could very well blame him harder for being the direct cause of the fall of the Targeryans (and yes Polygamy was no longer allowed so since Elia was not divorced he never legitimately married Lyanna whatever ceremony he had)
@@neodigremo The high septon annulled his marriage to Elia, so Jon is their legitimate son and heir to the iron throne.
Surprised The Mountain wasnt brought up. Even the people that were like minded in his cruelty confessed that his way if commanding was pretty bad.
And unless im mistaken- his forces got thrashed quite a bit.
Hes bad but he seems to do some serious damage even when he gets knocked about, and I think that's all he's meant to do 😂 not sure who he'd replace on the list but a great suggestion Jaynguin 👍 Thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClipsTyrion the reason for this is that tyrion can become a great commander as he is quite smart he just needs training and more experience he wouldn't be as great as rob or robert who are naturally gifted and trained since thier Childhood he still could have become a competent commander
Yes.. you took my suggestion! Thank you for including Joffrey. That made my day :)
Your welcome Professor, no brainer really 😃
Apparently the whole Greyjoy rebellion is just a probe of Westerosi power and he had a whole plan but we’ll never know
Sssssshhhhh unreal, others mustn't find out about the greyjoy master plan 🤫
Poor Jon got hit with the big dumb-dumb stick like the rest of the cast the moment they ran out of books. I always figured he was a pretty good commander and gave the Battle of The Bastards the benefit of the doubt because hey-he was running with all he could scrounge up at the time, Sansa was being the textbook definition of unhelpful at the time with her advice and keeping the Knights of The Vale to herself (which even Sophie Turner admitted was because Sansa wanted the credit first and foremost), and his brother's life was on the line...
-and then Winterfell happened and turned the entire fanbase into armchair Pattons picking apart the defense's battle plan. RIP Smart Jon, he was taken from us too soon.
I mean you don't need to be an armchair general to pick apart some of those choices, the biggest two for me are the catapults and the cavalry. You can in some cases justify having the bulk infantry in front of the walls, long as you've got plenty of ditches dug, but what a waste of a great flanking unit and perfectly good artillery 😂
Of all the commanders we've seen in this show, the title of "worst", at least to me, has to go to Ramsay. Sure, in the one battle we saw him in he was winning until he got caught off-guard by unexpected reinforcements, but as far as I'm concerned, ordering a volley of arrows on your own forces, even if it's in-character for him, is just a bottom-tier military move in my eyes. I don't care how many men he has to spare, knowingly sacrificing your own to hurt the enemy is just plain bad leadership, no matter what way you slice it 😠
Realistically as well, those men and his commanders would have turned on him mid battle or routed and run away.
It was done historically believe it or not Jeremy my man, but only in extremely rare cases, 99 percent of the time your asking to get a knife in the back for such a tactic 😂
I would disagree, Ramsey is a decent commander, sure he's not a lead the ground army type he's more of the stealth ops type & his plan did defeat Stannis before they even arrived at Winterfell & should've defeated John if not for d&d giving John stupid amounts of plot armour.
@@amadhatter3280 that and Ramsay's own mistakes cultivating the situation in the first place.
He sacrificed his own heavy cavalry too, it wasn't just silly levies.
He sent his best troops his heavy cav and wasted them all
I feel like Balon didn’t even get the timing right because he attacked the North BEFORE making a deal with Tywin and he only reached out to Tywin after the Battle of the Blackwater was over and the Lannisters were in a much stronger position. Tywin even said, “Why do I have to give him anything, when he has done everything I wanted for Free.”
Very good point D2! Thanks for watching! Liam
At 18:53 the way he says “still he could’ve had so much more” is the best line delivery ever.
Why thank you good ser!
Also I bet Robert thanked Baelon cause he's like. "Gods that's the shit I need. I needed to beat the shit out of someone."
Haha I can just imagine Roberts face
"Your Grace we're being attacked, half your kingdom is on fire"
"Whose behind this attack?"
"Balon Greyjoy your grace, why? Do you wish to kill him yourself"
"No I need to know where to send the thank you gifts" 😂
Thanks for watching crazy Scotsmen! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips "Now then someone get me hammer, and the breastplate stretcher! I have a battle to win!"
I’d say Aegon the Uncrowned was pretty stupid. A young, inexperienced commander with a young and smaller dragon challenges his older, battle hardened, uncle with Balerion. Doesn’t work on paper let alone on the field
😂 yeah thats not exactly a good idea even in theory, great pick!
I compare Jon Snow to George Washington in that they were bad commanders, but solid leaders in that they could get people to follow them, despite terrible odds. Meanwhile, their strategies and planning often failed against their enemies.
Washington had intended force the British into fighting block-by-block in order to take New York, but failed to adequately defend Harlem Heights from General Howe.
Jon faced similarly hopeless situations with the Battle of Castle Black, Hardhome and the Battle of the Bastards:
The Wall made Mance's forces a non-issue with exceptions to the Giants and Mammoths. A simple raid by Tormund and his freefolk on the southside of the Wall nearly crippled Castle Black.
Hardhome was an impossible situation where Jon's forces could only take delaying actions, buying time to allow as many freefolk to board the ships as possible before the beach was overwhelmed. Then, the reality of the situation set in with all of the casualties left at Hardhome rising up to join the Night King's army.
Jon's mistakes at the Battle of the Bastards were blatant with him abandoning his plan and nearly getting all of his men killed when encircled by Ramsay's Tower Shield infantry. The real-world comparison for this would have been the Battle of Cannae but reversed, with the enveloping forces having the initial numerical advantage.
Now, I feel Ramsay should have been on this list for his screwups at the Battle of the Bastards. Friendly-Fire losses from his archers cost him the battle. Had he simply maintained his volley of arrows to eliminate Jon Snow and adopted a defensive formation to counter Jon's smaller cavalry, the Battle of the Bastards would have been a Bolton victory, with the Knights of the Vale only arriving in time to see the flaying.
Jon wasn't in command at Castle Black.
The Battle of the Bastards was just Leroy Jenkins shenanigans and Sansa deliberately trying to kill off Jon and all those who supported him.
Bloody great comparison that Bloodraven! Never underestimate the power of charisma! Thanks for watching as always mate!
Loved this one! Where would you say Roose Bolton belongs on the more average side of commanders? Or was he just outside of one of these lists?
We don't know how good he is my friend, the battles he commands, he was purposefully losing and spending other houses forces, so its hard to count that against him. He's a cold and intelligent pyschopath though and happy to spend lives so I'd wager hes probably actually quite decent! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips Agreed he is pretty smart in how he chips down Robb’s loyal forces excluding his own men. I’d put him above the people on this list I think he’d just miss the best commanders in Westeros list.
i think jon is far better then hes ultimately portrayed in the show. The wall was a great feat, in the show at winterfell against ramsay he made a very smart and detailed battle plan as they discussed to win with their smaller numbers and pull ramsay into an all out attack like he did on stannis, only messing this plan up because of ramsays incredible use of mental warfare tactics. However the battle of winterfell i cant defend, it was just stupidity from the showrunners having no idea how medieval warfare works. However using the dragons to surround winterfell in a ring of fire was an amazing move and hunting the night king to destroy the entire army of the dead was also smart. just not enough back up plans
Oh for sure, Jons place is definitely more "let's crap on dnd some more" than anything else. Book Jon is 1:0 so far and he likely won't face Ramsey so as long as he does well at Winterfell (if he makes it to Winterfell) I will be very happy i was wrong about this placement :) thanks for watching! Liam
You know all this is really convinced me is that you actually need to make a version of the how would the Greyjoys win video that isn't in April fool's joke
In the works buddy, though I can't give any details as Thom is taking the wheel on it, he's braver than me, its a bloody hard mode challenge 😂 thanks for watching fear the pig! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips valid can't wait for the actual video
that's a rough job and all it depends on who's objectives you go for.
If you just want petty revenge on Ned Stark (who is dead mind you) and independence for your realm (Baelon)
If you just want indepenance for the realm and to reave for riches (Vic)
If you want independance for your realm and to establish better ties to the mainland thus making your ability to garner resources easier (Asha)
If you want... whatever bloody nightmare Euron wants.
First you have to pin down which Greyjoy faction you are picking.
Side with the White Walkers and let them destroy everything on the mainland. Between the Iron Fleet and the head White Walker they killed two dragons so Danarys would have trouble with both.
Your impression of Grey Worm and Jon Snow is so good 😂
is Jon Snow the worst commander?
not if Cersei has anything to say about it. depending how loosely you define your terms Cersei counts.
I'd say Cersei was more of a ruler than a commander, she never did any leadership in a military context, otherwise yeah I'd agree with you, Cersei is useless 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
If Tywin had let her be educated and trained as she wanted, like Jaime, he may not have lost his legacy so easily.
@@JC-gn7lq very true. I do think that she was a little too short sighted to be brilliant at it.
dude your impression of Greyworm is... impressive
Geoffrey does have some great ideas about having a well trained standing army loyal to the crown rather than the traditional levy system of the medieval era
Hard to believe he actually had some ideas in that head mixed in with all the sadism and cruelty 😂 thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips Now I kinda wish they would have given him more moments like that rather than just 100% sadistic and annoying
@@TheFandomeClips You need a very strong tax system to make it work. The Romans had it, the modern world has it, but the Medieval kingdoms most definitely had it *not* .
The Jon and Grey Worm reenacting was priceless 😂
Tyrion did well preparing for the siege of King's Landing, you got that right. But the sorties were a classic blunder of trying to do too much--Stannis, for example, would have husbanded his garrison until the relieving army showed up. It appears Tyrion merely sent out the parties just for the sake of doing something.
Edmure should have never been in charge of a large force. There's not much more to say, he's a victim of the Peter Principle via high birth.
Lame Harry Strickland is a bureaucrat. He appears to have been an excellent quartermaster and knowing logistics is an important attribute for any commander...but he showed no aptitude in either practice or theory of warfare. The books imply that the only reason he's Captain of the Golden Company is to function as a prudent figurehead until (f)Aegon was ready assume control.
Jon's tenure as Lord Commander is actually quite fascinating. Too bad DnD thought it would be boring and neutered that whole arc.
Balon Greyjoy is perhaps the greatest military missmind of his generation. Only a true paragon of insipidity would wage total war with pinpricks against 85 percent of the Westeros. His second run at kingship is somehow even stupider--he saw an opportunity to seize some rocky shores and thought that was worth risking everything. Seriously what was his plan here? What did he think he could actually accomplish?
😂 many a ASOIAF fan has tried to figure that out warlord 😂 people try their best to come up with some complex explanation but its an occums razor situation, he's simply an idiot 😂 Thanks for watching as always warlord! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips My problem with his inclusion is that he did at least correctly identify the biggest weakness and do his best to defend it. The problem is that he was just outmanned and against Stannis, a much more experienced and skilled commander. . Yes, he overestimated how well the tricks would work, but that's because it's theory versus reality and experience.
If Tyrion sits and does nothing though, what's to stop Stannis from just breaking down the mud gates and taking the city?
That impression of Jon and Greyworm were fucking great
Thanks Jake! Liam
The Mountain vs Sandoq the Shadow!
You weren't harsh enough on the battle of Winterfell. You called the Dothraki cavalry "shock troops" but what they really are is scouting/skirmishing cavalry due to their light(no) armor and agility. Shock cavalry would be fully armored knights with lances. So it's even worse to blindly charge light cavalry into a zombie army than to use knights.
Look Jacob i was trying to give them some leeway mate ok? 😂 its already too easy to dunk on the strategic and tactical decisions made in that battle and I like to I'm a nice guy 😂 your not wrong though, thanks for watching! Liam
The greyworm and John impression was hilarious
Thank you good sir! Thanks for watching! Liam
To be fair, the Wildfire trap killed A LOT of Stannis's soldiers and destroyed ~2/3-3/4 of his ships, which is not only disastrous for Stannis in the long run (regardless of how the battle turns-out,_ but also meant that they had hardly any ships to bring Stannis's army from the other side of the river to the city. Had all of those ships still been in commission, there would have been more than 10,000 soldiers at the city gates rather than a couple of thousand. As it was, the bulk of Stannis's army was still on the other side of the river when Tywin and the Tyrell army arrived. The wildfire, even more than attacking the soldiers as soon as they land to drive to drive them back into the river, was Tyrioin punching WAY above his weight (his military strategy weight that is. Not a comment on his size.)
Give Tyrion credit. His planning saved Kings Landing...from Stannis...in the Battle of the Blackwater.
And he led from the front in actual battle.
The rest of the time he was more of a consiglieri, than a battle planner.
Erm we did give him credit Joe? We acknowledged both the good and bad aspects of his commanding skills.
@@TheFandomeClips Ok, but 4th worst is not much credit
That was a fantastic Greyworm impression!!!!
Thanks Jacob!
I mean Tyrion did everything non-personnel-related to prepare King's Landing for the attack, because getting more soldiers was the one thing he couldn't do anything about, because his side's whole army was occupied in the Riverlands at the time
I came for the videos, but stayed for the editor’s notes 😂
I'd argue Edmure's biggest mistake was pulling out the garrison in the Twins that was meant to keep Walder Frey in line. While yes, the Freys were fighting for Robb and made some sacrifices, they only did that after they strong-armed a bunch of concessions from the North.
They say it's better to be lucky than good. Jon Snow is the proof of that, especially on the show, he falls ass backwards into winning battles he should clearly lose by luck alone. The battle at the wall was his only success and it was just "lucky" the Wildlings didn't come in full force. An every battle after that was 100% he only survives by luck.
Absolutely, who needs strategy or tactics when your wearing the best armor around? 😂
Balon's obsession with the old way doomed him from the beginning. So focused on the destination and only sparing a glance at the difficult path to get there.
Not to mention his beef with the Starks is kind of unfounded. I recall when Theon returns and Theon says Robb considers him a brother. Balon replies. "This son of the man who put your true brothers to the sword." When if you look back. That is not at all true. Rodrik Greyjoy was killed by Jason Mallister. While Maron Greyjoy was killed when the tower he was in collapsed from trebuchet fire during the siege of Pyke. So yeah, Ned is not at all responsible for the stuff Balon claims.
I was fully expecting "Joffrey's biggest flaw: everything." If for no other reason than it's truuuuuue
Here's another issue with Jon:
As Commander of the Stark loyalists against Ramsey... staying alive is kinda important.
So what does he do? Abandon his army and run off toward the enemy archers while trying to save your little brother, whom you thought didn't exist anymore
The pro if you save him? Brother points and honor
The cons if you die in the attempt: The entire point of rebelling is gone and your army is almost certainly doomed.
While it was mostly portrayed as comedic relief, Tyrion's diplomacy with the Hill Tribes was brilliant strategy on his part. He was able to unite tribes that did not like each other and use them to win at Green Fork. However, more importantly, he found a way to destabilize the Vale. One of the biggest obstacles with conquest is not just winning, but what happens after you win. Tyrion and Tywin both know that capturing the Vale is a massive waste of resources.
By giving the Hill Tribes steel, they end up creating a perpetual, de facto insurgency that will consume the Vale's resources. Since the Hill Tribes are their own separate entity the Lannisters aren't obligated to re-enforce them or be held responsible for their actions. Another bonus is since the Hill Tribes are too simple to form much of any strategy or diplomacy, they are never a threat but instead a thorn to an enemy.
This tactic also has real life implications. Often times countries can't deploy troops for financial or political reasons, so they instead provide support to insurgents that do the work for them.
Honestly Tyrion isn't that bad of a commander (Joffery helped him make the list in all honesty) , he's just not great, he really does have his moments like the hill tribes you mention and the wild fire, all brilliant ideas, he just doesn't seem to have much to fall back on when his tricks have done what they can do.
Thanks for watching my lord of wolf! Liam
They did Edmure so dirty in the show. Especially when it comes to Hoster Tully’s funeral. In the book it’s clear he’s missing the shots due to grief, and he isn’t shamed for it.
If it wasn't for the initial wildfire attack enough men would have made it to shore to take the walls before tywin got there. This was such a close clinch that even the hound leaving the field risked their chances. Every single action counted so much
On edmure, what would you have him do with the civilians? Part of being a commander is also keeping your armies morale high. And if the families of those soldiers are outside or riverrun while they sit safe, that's basicly begging for mutany.
The narrator going about Stannis during the Rickon bit cracks me up 😂
But he's right🤨
Ironic that Baleon is the worst... technically he won the battle of the five kings
Crazy isn't it? 😂 stupidity is often punished in thrones 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
I'd say Tywin should be on the list. His only notable victory was against the Reynes and Tarbecks. He lost every battle he ever fought against Robb, a green boy as he called him. He lost the entire Lannister fleet to Victarion Greyjoy in the Greyjoy Rebellion and he completely sat out Robert's Rebellion. I never understood why he was so hyped up. His greatest accomplishment seems to be using the power of Casterly Rock and the rest of the Westerlands to fight 2 minor houses. The only other accomplishment I can think of is keeping the peace with The Mad King on the throne, but Jon Arryn oversaw years of peace as well.
I thought in the books the plan Edmure messed up was going to go after Tywin and it was changed to the Mountain in the show. I thought they had Tywin in position to engage and try to beat him but Edmure messes it up and Tywin gets to leave and go Kings Landing to help with Stannis. I remember it very well. I hope I'm not wrong, because i remember this clearly and if I'm wrong I might be crazy.
lol, on the topic of “in defense of jon”, book jon has so far only commanded the defense of the wall I. Which he made excellent use of limited resources and held his troops in optimal positions where they could support eachother and held the love and loyalty of many among his men. Show Jon is literally not even close to the same person, like a genuine separate character that just happens to share the same name.
Very true hes 1:0 in the books and I honestly hope he stays that way. Or at the very least he puts his bloody catapults on the walls instead if in front of them 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips hey thanks for making it man, I love listening to your voice brother
For the love of the seven gods Jon for the battle of winterfell you should have had the Dothraki and other Calvary units stationed a mile or two south of winterfell in the woods somewhere. Misandrea shows up to do that flaming sword trick for them, and then they go ride out around the horde of the undead there using the speed of your horses take down the edges of the horde. With the Dothraki riding around the edge of the horde, Jon and Danny could have seen them better from above and then used the dragons to burn a lot more of the horde down. Trying to have more of the air battle with the night king down around the castle area.
Whatever you do with them, don't send them into an enemy mass that has no morale to break or self preservation instincts lol 😂
Come on the writing in the end was disrespectful to the fun base
@@jonesmapani9898 fun base?
The only time you put Unsullied in FRONT of gates is if they're the 3000 who saved Qohor from the Dothraki Khalasar
Babylon being an absolutely inept commander yet still technically being the winner of the war is crazy 😂💀
In the books Jon is 100% different. He was a pretty good commander and politician.
We know Tony, we were just using Jon as a way to dunk on DnD, in the books he's 1:0 for commanding a battle, hopefully his record stays clean! Thanks for watching! Liam
Geoffrey's biggest flaw is being Geoffrey!
Geoffrey was right when he said there should be one army only that's loyal to the crown. I forgot who said the same thing later in the series but my boy G doesn't get any love.
The one time he actually had a worthwhile thought 😂 thanks for watching spidey! Liam
Yeah, I think Balon wanted to get rid of Robbs army by capturing Moat Cailin, to hold them off from returning north. Though his forces there (under Victarion) then had to deal with the Crannogmen of the Neck, who constantly harassed them with their Guerilla tactics.
Meanwhile Asha captured Deepwood Motte, bringing the Lady and heirs back to the Iron Islands.
And Theon (together with Aeron) were only meant to raid the coastline.
So I don't think Balon wanted all of the North, just cut himself a piece of it.
Awesome! Couldn't agree more!
Jon is a shit military tactician. His greatest strength is as a leader in general: his ability to unite people and make them back his cause. If Stannis could borrow a bit of that quality, he would be unbeatable.
And THANK YOU for doing Edmure justice. If the show did anyone dirty, it was Edmure. Rob was an idiot for not telling him the plan (or just the gist of it), and just exopcting him to sit idle by in his castle while the Mountain slaughtered his people.
Aye Jon is like Tywin, but on the other end of the scale of morality, a great leader, but not a great military leader. I hated the glory seeking show depiction of Edmure so much, he's not the butt of a joke, he's just a sweet guy who wants to defend his people and he's not horrific at command, he's just unsuitable for ruthless decisions because of his compassion. Thanks for watching Maikenlsten! Liam
Top 5 are 5) R. Baratheon 4) R. Stark 3) Stannis 2) Tarly 1) Khal Drogo. Honorable mentions are Grey Worm Ned Stark, Tyrion Euron Greyjoy and Barristan Selmy
I would argue that the attack on the wall was actually not a test in the show
cus otherwise he wouldnt have probably lit up the whole forest so the others from the other side could attack at the same time
its clear they expected to win that that day
it doesnt make sense to have the king of the giants go attack if you just wanna test defences and also to use the one time suprise attack advantage from the other side
of the wall
its clear this was not jsut testing but they wanted to take over
“Hold the Line my Brother is already dead” DAMN I think you just got me to favor Stannis
Also the Iron Islands trying to fight practically all of Westeros has in my eyes some parallels to Japan in WW2 as they tried to fight China and Practically all Pacific nations and while they started off doing good things they eventually got clobbered
I like how it's their morals that cause so many flaws in leading, excellent video and look forward to more down the road.
Thanks Kyle always great to see you in the comments. I never looked at it that way but your right, its definitely a case of code taking precident over efficiency, both for those who are too noble and those who are too ruthless. Thanks for watching as always mate! Liam
If you have a giant at your disposal and don't have him use a bow while the enemy is far outside of regular bow range, you are a failure.
Also give the guy a tree trunk club, that sheild wall ain't doing shit vs one swing 😂
I never understood why the giant wasn’t better outfitted and utilized, imagine a giant with any sort of armor and some giant sword and shield or like you said a bow.
giant swords are easy to make;
quite like a 100ft long submarine sandwich
Why didn't Bobby B teach Joffrey anything about warfare?
Funny that if those 5 (or 6 in this case) worst commanders were to work together (or fused into 1 commander) they would actually be a half way decent commander (not great of course but they'd be a problem for a lot of Factions to deal with), a forward thinking (Joffery), caring (Edmure), charismatic (John), trickery (Tyrion), opportunist (Balon) commander that's not afraid to fight dirty. Together they'd would a problem for most commanders (assuming we're only fusing the best parts of each of these 6 together), but sadly the ego's (aka Joffery & Balon) would never agree to work together.
Very good point Hatter! I love that about GRRMs work no character comes without rough to go with the smooth, it just for these guys they have a bad rough to smooth ratio 😂
Tyrion definitely did a great job with what he had available. He didn't ask for that battle, he would have gladly handed off the responsibility of command to his brother Jaime, or his Uncle Kevan had either of them been present at the time.
Off topic, but what do you think would have happened if instead of treating with the freys to attempt to get to kings landing quickly, he treated with the ironborn, using Theon-a moot piece I know- and his mother a descent negotiator to bring the iron islands into the fold.
Is the Asha-Robb betrothal feasible way to victory or just a quicker way to the red wedding?
I think it could have been a game changer Jack! With the iron born navy, Rob can do a Stannis and say screw you to land blockades and obstacles and sail straight to the coast of any region he wants to attack. The issue is if Rob forsakes his oath to Asha/Yara. It was a massive slap in the face to the Freys, it would be nothing short of a haymaker to Balon, at least The Freys were initially indifferent to etheir side, the alliance between Balon and Rob would be walking a tightrope for a very long time before the trust was solidified. The Freys wouldn't give a crap to be honest, they wanted to be left in peace until Rob wanted to use that bridge. Thanks for watching! Liam
Bealon managed to pass on his leadership skills to his brilliant son the mighty Theon the prince of Winterfell
Took winterfell with 8 men, not too shabby 😂 thanks for watching! Liam
Your impressions are really good lol
I so love this channel for the Stannis respect. He always was my favorite and then when the show came out I wanted everyone to see how great he was. We all know how that turned out...
The Mannis will always be the One True King in our eyes Matt. Take heart for the night is dark and full of terrors, but the One True King will light the way! Thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips Appreciate that very mutch. Flashy clothes and being pompous do not make a great king. Having the strength to do whats right in the worst circumstances does.
The one on his birth certificate 😂😂 love it
Somehow daenerys managed to escape this list. Having giant weapons of mass destruction in the form of dragons, and forgetting about the massive iron fleet that is guarding the capital city you are trying to take, is typically very obvious to be a major failure in ability to command and lead an army.
The worst Commanders in Westeros:
• Balon Greyjoy - Rose in rebellion twice; quelled once, killed second
• Rhaegar Targaryen - you do not protect your Queen or your kingdom by sacrificing yourself in a one-on-one. The Battle of the Trident, should have been a skirmish -- the Crown Prince was far outnumbered for battle
• Gerold Hightower, he held to his vow at the Tower of Joy, but holding to a 3 vs 11 is folly. He should have moved Lyanna Stark in carriage with a wetnurse to allied territory when he heard Stark forces were coming
• Robb Stark (in alliances, command judgement, and in winning a battle at the cost of 1/10 his total force - 2000 Northmen)
• Theon Greyjoy - thinking he can hold Winterfell with 20 Ironmen from a seige of Northmen
• Melisandre - de facto commander of Stannis' forces - follows battle tenets according to her faith, and when things go wrong, she shift blame and lights the accused on fire
• Beric Dondarrion - he might have won the melee at the Hand's Tourney, but if you get killed 6 times in battle, you suck as a commander
As a Greyjoy loyalist I absolutely agree. His romanticized version of the old ways are far long gone one the isolation didn't help either. Sure he wasn't the sharpest but I'd say bitterness and a sprinkle of madness made him do unwise decisions.
Adding to that is his inability to compromise. May it be Robb's offer of Casterly Rock or Tyrion's (obvious fake offer) of Myrcella being married to Theon, Balon wouldn't have agreed.
His death was far overdue.
Thank you Euron, very cool
Its the same reason that many generals got a shock in ww1, those stuck in the old ways got so many of their troops killed
Got to move with the times baley boy 😂
Thanks for watching! Liam
5:28 actually the feudal system was superior prior to the invention of gunpowder. even the eastern roman empire adtoped a feudal system and it greatly improved their effectiveness at defending their empire. feudalism was not a backwards step from centralised militaries, it was a forward step. until gunpowder changed the game.
Renly died to a literal 1 day old child...
I mean we never got to see him do any commanding, he might have taken after his older brothers 😂
Said child was a demon hellspawn and is thus not comparable in capability to that of an actual child ye.
Your Greyworm inpersonation is pretty good lmao
Personally, I think show rob really didn’t know much about actual battle tactics, which is why he relied on gorilla warfare
He kept winning though without the last minute saves that his brother enjoyed. Whatever Rob was doing he was doing it well 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
Don't you think that if we knew more about the Black Fish and his accomplishments as a leader he'd be on the list of the best?
Tyrion decimated half of Stanis’s fleet with out ever having being trained
Just think if Tormund had reached up and snatched Jon off the horse before he could throw everyone's lives away. I think Wild Rickon would have had more gazelle-like zig-zag movements and if Ramsey had been a little more book-like(dumber) he might have got out of bow range with the lead Ramsey gave him.
You're asking Edmure Tully not to defend his people? When pigs fly!
What I don’t get is that their is no lord of Moat Cailin so it was just like empty for Vicky to stroll into. The key to the north! That’s a whole I can fill
Only having 1 trench during the battle of Winterfell was dumb af, why would the Dothraki also charge the undead??
I love the continuing topic, but Jon gets hit a bit hard don’t you think. it’s not fair to hold anything after season 5 against his character for obvious reasons and Book Snow is more politically savvy and plans his future moves a lot more. Plus would any other leader before him have crossed the wall to deal with the “wildlings” and Hardhome. As for Baylon😂 you are so spot on. He could have gotten Danny, partnered with the Dragon Queen and attacked the 7 kingdoms from port to port. He has all those ships and she needed ships 🤦
Haha yeah I prefer to see Jons spot more as a "let dump on Dnd some more" session 😂 in the books he's doing alright, he's 1:0 and he likely won't face Ramsey, let's just hope he makes it to winterfell so his book version can redeem his show counterpart, put the artillary on the walls and dig some ditches thats all I ask 😂 tks for watching as always Trey! Liam
Euron Greyjoy vs Corlys Velaryon ? Wouldn't that be a match
More like Stannis "I hate everybody except Davos"
Varys’s biggest weakness is that he’s got no balls. G-G-Gottem!
Tyrion needed to make a move. The wildfire was necessary otherwise stannis' force wouldve taken kings landing quickly. Also tyrions chain was praised as a brilliant move
Imagine the commander Jeoffrey would have been if Robert had raised him and not Cercei
Sallying out to attack the enemy before they are entrenched IS a tried and true tactic.
What about Book Jon Snow
We don't know yet, he's a 16 year old boy so he doesn't have much experience or deeds in this regard and we only have his commanding of the wall to go on, Stannis should actually get TBOTB in the books so Jon won't mess up there and I'm sure George knows a bit more about battles than DnD so if Jon makes it to the long night he should at least be a little better if not perfect in comparison to the show. But as of now he's got a clean record at 1:0 😂 so he's doing well! thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClipsit's just the planning he had for coming winter and how he planned to use loans from the Iron Bank to buy food and supplies for the coming winter plus trying to build glass gardens and how to manned most Castles on the wall with freefolk under command of a officer from Nights Watch was pretty impressive for a 16 year old