@@TheFandomeClips The Karstarks were kind of the last straw in terms of Robb (and Cat's) mistakes. But on their own not the worst. The worst is sending Theon off, followed by 'letting Jaime go'. Without Theon, the Iron Islands probably don't take Winterfell and as long as Jaime is a hostage; the worst case scenario is Robb is taken prisoner. Marrying Jeyne though was super dumb and showed to even those who stayed loyal Robb would put his personal interests above their cause's needs which definitely remains a problem.
@@davidlewis5312I kinda thought if Theon would have stayed with Robb in the Westerlands he would have talked him down from the Jeyne thing. If he had an ironborn near by to convince him that she is spoils it might have played out a tad differently
Hard to give the Unsullied credit in command, as by their own words, "We Obey." Now with Robert, he undoubtedly won the war but he did also hold vast advantage with The North, Riverlands, Vale, and Storm lands behind him against only The Crownlands, Reach, and Dorne (the weakest of the realms). The Westerlands stayed out of the rebellion for most of it. Interesting what may have happened of Lord Tywin had remained loyal to Ayers (though he had no reason to.)
He made several mistakes, imcluding how he handled the Karstarks and Roose. He should have listened to Roose, while simutaniously be more warry and he should have kept the Karstarks as close allies.
Personally I think that Grey Worm is MASSIVELY overhyped. He’s an excellent soldier due to his skills and upbringing but we never see him make any tactical decisions that qualify him as a commander. His superior just send him in a specific direction and wait for him to come back.
Same thing as Robert Baratheon. I guarantee you give them complete control over their armies with no other influence and they would fail badly. They’re leaders that lead through actions, not strategy. They thrived through the advice of better leaders than themselves.
Exactly! He's perfect soldier, but that's it The idea of Unsullied is to erase any initiative or thinking process in them, their buyer was supposed to give them orders Let alone Unsullied shield formation is the only tactic he could possibly know, so he would be useless in charge of Northern army, for example Of course he gets more expirience during his time with Dany, but as we could see from trebuchets plascment - tactics still are not his strong side Don't get me wrong, he's one of my favourite characters, but ranking him higher then Tywin is straight up warcrime
Tactics and decisions are 2 different things. What you're referring to is strategy. Grey worm and the unsullied are extremely successful because they're drilled in a very specific set of tactics. The issue is they have no strategy if there isn't another commander implementing one for them.
In my head Tarly is very much like the duke of wellington. Nothing truly brilliant there but pure competency in staying calm and trusting the theory with resolve to win the day. He definitely will never "fuck up" but won't take mad risks that result in great victories either.
Thats kind of our thoughts too, I should not have snubbed him on the orginal list in fairness, sometimes a calm head and pure plain competentance is whats needed. Thanks for watching! Liam
Wellington was better in defence than attack, but the Battles of Assaye and Salamanca, while not being on the level of a masterpiece like Austerlitz, were both great offensive victories.
Yea, but Wellington also defeated the person who is widely considered to be the best military commander of all time. Even if you only think Napoleon is only top 5 that still puts him in a completely different league than Tarly. Wikipedia has his record at 38-8-3 (wins-loss-indecisive) for battles where he was in command. I doubt Tarly comes close to that. He also commanded major campaigns, whereas Tarly was never really a “supreme commander” just someone’s senior officer.
1. Randyl Tarly broke Robert’s army and scattered them at Ashford 2. He separated Robert from them and forced him to flee north into the vicinity of Jon Connington and the crownland forces 3. He was stopped by mace Tyrell when attempting to Pursue Robert, Mace didn’t want to risk his military record and instead added Tarly’s forces to his siege of Storms end. Most the faults you attribute to Tarly are Mace Tyrell’s Orders.
I would argue that Tarly didn’t have the authority to go after Robert as he is not in command of the army just the vanguard and Mace the ace wanted to siege storms end
No, Robert HAD the tactics of Stannis and the charm of Renly during the war for the throne. Once he killed Rhaegar, Lyanna had died and the war was won, he became a bitter alcoholic, only briefly returning to his former glory during the Greyjoy Rebellion 10+ years prior to the first book/season. Robert in all of the books we have read was an abusive drunk that knew he was too far gone to lead a nation so he left it to his advisors completely, resorting to spending most of his days drinking and abusing and fucking prostitutes.
@@godemperorofmankind3.091 Renly would be King if he just knelt to Stannis as his heir. With the combined might of the Stormlands and the Reach, they would have crushed Tywin. Then, a simple “accident” puts Renly and Margaery on the throne.
I actually disagree on the Grey Worm part(in the books especially). The three battles they took part in the books were: 1) The Battle of Yunkai The sellswords betrayed the masters, and it wasn't Grey Worm who came up with the plan of attacking in the night. 2) The First Siege of Meereen Again, he wasn't in command, and the main reason Daenerys's forces won was because of Ser Barristan Selmy and Jorah Mormont's sneak attack through the sewers, which, again, wasn't his idea. 3) The Second Siege of Meereen/The Battle of Fire Outcome inconclusive, but probably a victory. Ser Barristan the Bold was the commander in this one, and the victory would also be attributed to Victarion's arrival and Tyrion swaying the Second Sons. In the show, the first two are the same, but there are others as well: 1) The Second Siege of Meereen(show version) Mostly won by the Dothraki and the dragons, plus the masters being complete idiots. I don't even recall the unsullied doing anything. 2) The Siege of Casterly Rock The only one where the win could be attributed to him, but was it that impressive really? Using spear infantry to storm the walls is kinda stupid, and doubtless caused uneeded casualties. Sneaking through a back door entrance is clever, but not exactly brilliant, and you'd assume anyone who possesses information of such an entrance would definitely take advantage of it. Also he failed to prepare for the Iron Fleet's attack, which leaves another stain on his record (though Euron was cheating using teleportation cheat codes). 3) The Battle of Winterfell/The Long Night Coming up with, or willfully ignoring the glaring flaws in the battle plans for this one should automatically drop anyone out the running for the top 5. 4) The "Siege" of King's Landing Won by Dany and her dragons, need I say more. All in all the reason for success, if it could even be attributed to him, was due to he commanding the Unsullied, not because he ever showed any brilliance as a commander. And if we're critically examining these battles, I cannot justify putting him above Tarly or Tywin.
About the battle of fire I dont thing they will won ,Ser Barristan and Greywarm had serve their part of the story , Danerys will arrive too late to save them but she will go foward with the Greyjoys and Tyrion who I expect to arrive în Mereen after the battle is over
Wasnt Casterly Rock also a sacrificial pawn to get the Unsullied all the way at the end of the other side of Westeros to weaken Queen Daenery’s army and allow Jaime and Randyll Tarly and opportunity to crush Highgarden
@@D2attemp That was in the show? I've haven't seen it, only read the books, but I've absorbed quite a lot through cultural osmosis, and I've never that being directly mentioned as being the case.
@@KaiHung-wv3ulyeah that was in the show. Basically the Lannisters left Casterly Rock unprotected and instead seized the opportunity to wipe out the Tyrells. They knew they were sacrificing the Rock so yeah that victory is kind of bogus for Grey Worm if you wanna get technical
Tarly came across like a Robert E. Lee and George Meade in terms of his competency as a general. His greatest asset is being able to coordinate the logistics of an army better than his opponents. However, this can also make him conservative, failing to act at the decisive moments or give commands for an offensive movement when an enemy is on the backfoot. This essentially makes him a solid bulwark to hold a position, but a poor choice to lead an assault against an enemy on the move.
Thats kind of my thoughts too My Lord. Hes definitely highly competent but he lacks that spark that separates the good from the greats and makes him a poor choice for a Vanguard commander in all honesty. Thanks for watching again matey! Liam
Lositics was actually a massive weakness when Lee took command of the Army of Northern Virginia. He openly distained the adminsitrative work that came with being a commander. He was too into flashy wins in battle, even while fighting a war of attrition against a much larger and better supplied enemy. Which is weird because his ahdnly of adminsistrative work was what made him a really good artillery commander in Texas.
I would not call Lee a conservative commander. The guy attempted two offensive campaigns into the north with a significantly smaller and poorly equipped army. His greatest victories were largely due to his daring maneuvers, familiarity with local terrain, and excellent general staff. Meade is a great comparison though. He was stalwart but hesitant to seize initiative on his own.
The South had a lack of manpower relative to the North, so Lee preferred risky tactics. A war of attrition would've ground down his army much faster than the Army of the Potomac. Lee hoped that a major victory would get the European powers to declare their support for the South, which is what France did for the fledgling United States after the Battle of Saratoga. To this purpose, Lee divided his forces and sent his cavalry on foray into the North in order to obtain a surprise and lighting victory. He rather resembles Robb Stark in that way.
@@LordBloodraven Yeah no, Robert E. Lee was notoriously terrible with logistics and seeing the big picture. His incompetency played a large part in the defeat of the CSA
So true! I mean Bobby basically did what Aegon did but without the dragons, that puts his Chad levels beyond that which our modern science can quantify 😂 Thanks for watching RAMOS! Liam
Robert Baratheon big weakness was he’s a hot head at least by the time of a game of thrones his anger towards the targaryens caused him to toss reason to the wind someone really intelligent could have exploited that
It also happens to be the very reason he rebelled and won in the first place. He's brash, sure, but given a favorable context, that brashness can win thrones.
@@DarkVeghetta it’s also how the Romans lost just about every battle they fought in the first half of the second Punic War what I’m saying is that it causes just as much recklessness as it does focus by the time of AGOT Roberts anger bred recklessness we did see it do him in but a general like Hannibal or Cesar or Alexander would have used his anger to knee cap his army and end the rebellion swiftly
@@user-ok7kz8ru2q We have no idea how such a match-up would fare, really. However, I'm also inclined to give the hypothetical win of such a scenario to Caesar and Hannibal, but Alexander is much more of a coin-toss, since he had very similar strengths to Bobby B and one might end up killing the other on the field before the troops really finish duking it out. Regardless, Bobby's enemies did not have generals of that caliber, let alone warriors able to take him in a 1v1. Again, context matters.
Not downplaying Big Bobby B here, but a lot of his victories early in the rebelion was against smaller armies. He messed up against Tarly, he would have lost the battle of the Bells had it not been for Ned Stark and Jon Arryn coming to his rescue. Sure, Bobby won the battle of the Trident, but he got wounded during battle, meaning he probably wasn't the sole commander, as we know Ned Stark, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully. And Ned was the one who lead his army againt Kings Landing, suggesting that Ned saw fewer losses. I'm not saying Bobby ain't number one, but Ned should be on this list. Because Ned was obviously a great general, and he is the guy that taught Robb. Grey Worm should not be on this list, but Ned should, if only because Ned was Roberts number 2 guy. Sorry about any misspellings. I'm norwegian, do english is not my first language
Bobby B also had the advantage of having his foster father, Jon Arryn, as his mentor and advisor. We never got to see or read much about Jon Arryn, but it’s implied that while he may not be Tywin level of tactics and intelligence, he wasn’t far off. He also had Ned who while young, proved to be a much more capable military commander than warrior. George Martin says it multiple times in the books. A young Robert Baratheon was the embodiment of the deity, The Warrior. He was a god of war, not a god of tactics. A young, 6’4 200lb Robert didn’t win wars because of his ability to lead men through his mind, he won wars through his ability to lead men through his might.
He should not be number 1 though lol. He has great generals but he isn't one himself. Stannis is called the greatest general. Robert is called the greatest warrior. Those titles are pretty clear.
@@WileeCoyote1516 He did win 3 battles in a single day. That's no small feat. It requires great deal of personal heroism as well as equally great understanding of battle. You could say that Robert's generals deserve a lot of credit for his victories, which they do. But you could say that for Stannis himself, who likely benefited from Davos' experience in his victory against Victarion. I might be inclined to say its Robb who deserves the top spot with how impressive his victories were. But the point remains, Robert Baratheon is the only man who can boast of the greatest military achievement in Westeros. That of actually conquering Westeros without any dragon cheat codes.
Most anglophones are monolingual or poor at speaking another language. With the exception of an +80 year old Swedish woman, I can't say the same for any Scandinavian that I'm aware of.
What about Khal Drogo? We don't have enough information about him, but 1) he's called "the great khal", 2) he's leading a warlike nomadic horde so clearly he has to be competent or he'd lose wars and then his power, 3) Viserys apparently thinks it's plausible that Khal Drogo can conquer Westeros because otherwise he wouldn't marry Dany to him, 4) after the attempted assassination of Dany, Khal Drogo himself promises to conquer Westeros (implying that he thinks it's possible, and delusional warlords don't live long). 5) He must have won a bunch for Drogo to be called "the great khal" and we don't actually see him lose a war, or have there be any serious threats to his power.
That's a good argument, but I would counter that his big problem is that he likely never fought with an actual, professional army. Of course he definitely defeated lots of rival khals, but even then those and the Free Cities rulers (which are much more merchants than warriors) are the only enemies he fought. We don't know how he'd do against an army with good equipment and iron discipline, like a Westerosi army or the Unsullied (especially since we already hear about Dothrakis getting smashed by Unsullied in the past)
Ramsey Bolton deserves an mention. Yes he’s a psychopathic monster, but he was a great military commander as portrayed in the show. He used a raid to weaken Stannis’ force, and then defeated him with a textbook double envelopment. His strategy at the battle of the bastards was executed to perfection, as he was able to draw the Starks in and completely surround them like Hannibal at Cannae. The only thing that got him was a last minute arrival of the Knights of the Vale.
"Interesting thing about my father: he built our house up from near ruin, he built our army, he built Casterly Rock as we know it." - Tyrion Tyrion's admiration for his father's achievements is evident, despite their complicated and often adversarial relationship. This quote underscores Tywin's legacy and his pivotal role in shaping the fortunes of House Lannister. His biggest mistake was leaving the bathroom door unlocked and letting Tyrion build the sewers of Casterly Rock :D
My assumption has always been that Robert won the rebellion because of Ned. Robb without ever having gone to war beat Tywin so bad that he rage quit the War of the 5 Kings by violating guest right. Something that the entirety of Westeros holds sacred. I figure Robb got his tactical genius from Ned. I have no doubt Robert was a good fighter during the rebellion, but he never struck me as a deep thinker. I'm guessing Ned decided the battle plans and Robert went out to hit things.
I think it's hard to judge Tarly for the escape of Robert. He beat Robert in the field, then the Tyrells with their own little agenda arrived and turned what could have been a decisive victory into an indecisive one. Heck, it's pointed out more than once that the Tyrells didn't wanna participate in the war at all whilst technically staying loyal. This is a political move by Tarlys superiors, not military failure on his end. They just found the biggest, best defended castle and besieged it without really risking their army at all. They didn't participate in either or the deciding battles of the rebellion at all. Hard to rank the man when his only known accomplishment is this
Great video, I do think that Ned should be given an honorable mention, Ned taught Robb everything he knows. And the big man George has also said that Ned was one of the best tacticians in the realm.
Aye my crazy Scottish friend! I think Bobby's spot is kind of half Neds in all fairness. Bobby does credit a few battles that he gets the glory for to Ned. Thanks for watching as always matey! Liam
Another commander who i think is underrated is ormund baratheon robert's grandfather he led his army into the step,stones to fight the golden company the best sellsword company in Essos with nothing but green boys who didn't have the same experience as them and the nine penny kings commanders knew the step,stones better than the westerosi meaning they could have trapped them their easily and they had experienced commanders who had fought in thus area before Jet despite these disadvantages ormund managed 5o land his army in the step,stones succsessfully without suffering to much damage his only flaw that we know of is that he died in battle and we dont know the kontekst of how he died other than maelys the mounsterous killed him.
I feel like Renly gets overlooked as a commander, least Book Renly. He does not have much experience and a lot of people don't understand what he was doing. But he basically gathered the kind of support Robert had, took his time marching to kings landing, for a reason. Starved the city by blocking food, let the Lannisters and Starks wear each other down. His plan was solid and while others thought he was just fucking around he wasn't. This is beyond the fact he had the biggest army with 100,000 foot soldiers plus his cavalry. Basically if Stannis hadn't cheated with magic he would have marched to Kings Landing and when he did the Lannisters even if they defeated the Starks would be in no position to stop him. Only reason they stopped him was cause Tyrells switched sides cause they were for Renly not Stannis. The dude had the war in the bag and in a non fantasy setting simply would have won. Not bad for a commander who didn't have much experience.
D&D will never be able explain to me how a commander who overcame a year long siege being starved out would be impatient enough to burn his daughter over some snow.
Top commanders in Game of Thrones. Military and military minded. 1. Robert Baratheon 2. Robb Stark 3. Stannis Baratheon 4. Ned Stark 5. Grey Worm 6. Tywin Lannister 7. Tyrion Lannister 8. Jon Snow 9. Mance Ryder 10. Sansa , Olenna , Baelish and Daenerys ( not commanders per say but had some battle minded plans )
Tarley was a valuable Lord; in some ways, he was like Ned Stark. The show, with its one-dimensional thinking, made him a villain. Yes, he was cruel to his son, but so what?
I disagree... I don't think it was a mistake on rob starks part... Rob chopping off Jamie's hand was a great threat and keeping him alive was wise he had no way of knowing that mom would let him go.... And executing the carstarks was also valid not just because it's murder but before the carstarks killed the captives rob still had some genuine captives.. but now he had nothing... He gave more then fair offers to the iron Islanders and even gave fair terms of peace to Tywin Lannister... And if Remley was never assinated then Rob probably would have joined him as they were already close to making a deal... I think his biggest mistake was either Jolly Rotten Luck, not knowing how to handle unexpected stupid decisions by houses like Iron born, or alternatively letting his emotions cloud his judgement.. but I think nothing was wrong with his honor.. every offer Rob gave politicly was more then fair to be honest
There is a solid difference between "It was a mistake" and "that didn't work". Like betting all in on a full house is not a mistake as that is a damn good hand. It is not a mistake just because unknown to me my opponent has 4 of a kind.
@@neodigremo I completely agree... i genuinely feel like Rob gave more then fair offers to everyone including the ironborn. I just think that it just didn't work... And some things were beyond his control
@@professorsassafras weeeelll….. the Ironborn thing wasn’t likely to work ever but Rob had reasons to think they wouldn’t trash his lands and Theon would not betray him. And his marriage decision was a flat out mistake. As was his not telling Edmure (the de facto Lord of the Riverlands and so his flat out most vital vassal/ally) of his plans properly. But this is a handful of mistakes that make sense for the character. Most other issues were just things not working, such as allying with Renly. No shadow baby and this screws the lannisters completely
@@neodigremo I know most fans probably hate this opinion, but i think it was right for Rob to marry the girl(jeyne westerling) because he soiled her and needed to take responsibility. The deal Catlyn made with the Freys was just so stupid.
@@Rengokuo4o6 It wasn't an incredible deal, but considering Rob was at that point unproven, really needed the help AND the Freys are one of the stronger families out there it wasn't the worst deal you could get. And once he slept with her the moral thing was to marry the girl. Sleeping with her at all was the mistake. Though you could argue that, moral or not, politics means Rob should not have married her anyway.
Winning 3 battles in a single day is more than winning battle after battle after battle. It implies he managed to preemptively strike several enemy forces that were about to merge (why else would they be that close from one another) and defeat them in detail. Turning a certain defeat (or at least a costly stalemate) into overall a decisive victory. That's what you'd expect from Napoléon.
Robert's weakness was in his rage. He was so vengeful to the Targaryen's that he more or less helped traumatize Ned which had so many knock on effects that it basically sealed his own death, Ned's death and more. Big Bobby's B weakness is that he can't keep it going forever and eventually starts rotting. If the realms were stuck in perpetual civil war or the seven kingdoms balkanized entirely, I wager Robert would have been much happier as he would have had a blast with all the fighting.
Thanks for re uploading the video with an extra for us !!. Sorry that it got struck for the copy claim, I here they are so annoying to deal with. A great video in every aspect guys. My personal favourite commander and character is the Mannis anyone who says other wise is a traitor that is certain. Keep up the great vids !!!!!
7:13 I disagree. Even if Robert had died, the war was far from over. Ned Stark still would've marched south and joined up with Jon Arryn. Then, they probably still would've gotten Hoster Tully on their side as well.
Totally agree. The main issue was that Robert won the majority of the Stormlands over with conquest due to them supporting the Throne. So they would probably have turned against Stannis, freeing up the Reach laying siege to Storm's End.
Stannis is the best commander and it’s not even close. -Withstood a year long siege in an uncertain war. -Conducted an amphibious operation taking Dragonstone with ease -Crushed the Greyjoy fleet in one fell stroke -Assaulted the largest Greyjoy island and took it -Acted as master of ships for years -Almost took Kings Landing against insurmountable friction (ie - Renly, Tyrion’s Mountain clansman, wildfire, water chain etc -He did this with a few vessels from Dragonstone and just the Stormlands -Proceeded to regroup and changes his entire strategy -Crushes a Wildling Army of 100,000 with 1,500 men -That army had giants and Mammoths wtf! -Proceeds to March on Winterfell while his host swells and the Iron bank becomes his ally. This man did all this with almost 0 supporters at the beginning of the war and limited resources. Robert had almost half the realm on his side during his rebellion. Stannis is probably the best commander Westeros has ever saw. Would easily be the best king. I hate D and D so much. If Stannis’s plotline ends in the same dumbass way the show ended. I’m going to buy a boat sail out to the middle of the Pacific Ocean and sink my own ship to purposefully drown myself. I have been waiting for this man to take Winterfell for over a decade. Hopefully my comment brightened everyone’s day. Have a good one 👍🏻
I must admit I wouldn't have really pictured Robert as a commander in his own right, more a captain. Ned and lord Arryn make the plan and point Robert at what needs smashed, a task he preforms with great talent.
The plan of Robb trying to trap the mountain was a bigger move then you think, if im not remembering falsly. His plan was not only too trap him but twyin himself that was behind him what would have been a big succes if im not mistaken.
To be fair to Robb he is the king in the north. A king gives you an order and you follow it. End of story. Deviating from that plan could fuck you up or piss off the king. Wasn’t there also something about a meeting that the guy didn’t show up for?
Well researched vid. Yeah, the Baratheons are legends. I also got a kick out of the Laughing Storm from the Dunk and Egg books. Kind of family that could be your best mates or your worst enemies, no middle ground. Tarly seems like the perfect honorable mention candidate, we hear he's great, he just doesn't have many known feats.
If this was my ranking list of top five military commanders in Game of Thrones it would be this. From number 1 to number 5. 1# Tywin Lannister 2# Robert Baratheon 3# Stannis Baratheon 4# Robb Stark 5# Randyll Tarly Honorable Mention 6# Mance Rayder
What if Aemon the dragon knight (with dark sister) vs Arthur Dayne (with Dawn) vs Prime Barristan the bold (with Blackfyre he did kill the last blackfyre) vs Sir Gregor the mountain (with heartsbane, sorry Sam 😭) vs Prime Robert Berathion (with Ice, Good old Ned having his back) vs Prime Jaime Lannister (with brightroar his families lost vilaryian steal great sword) vs Sir Duncan the Tall (with oath keeper) fought a free for all how’d they do? Wanted everyone to have somewhat comparable weapons to spice it up
1. Aemon the Dragon Knight 2. Barristan the Bold (Don't forget GRRM said that Dayne and Barristan are equals without Dayne, but if Barristan has Blackfyre, no way even Dawn would put Dayne over the edge) 3. Arthur Dayne 4. Duncan the Tall 5. Robert Baratheon 5. Jaime Lannister 6. The Mountain.
Theon Stark is number 1. Do the knowledge! Conquered the Sisterlands. Put down a Greyjoy invasion. The only major house North of Dorne to defeat the Andal invasion. The Andals was probably the best warriors in the world at the time and Theon not only defeated them but he defeated their commander 1v1. Then he went across the Narrows Sea and brought the fight to the Andals in their country of Andalos. Defeated them there, burned villages, occupied Septs, and then brought the heads of scores of Andals back to Westeros. Put those heads on spike across the shore of the North to warn future invaders. There is no commander we know of that has greater feats than that
What did Stannis actually ever win anything with his strategies? I think he is actually somewhat like tarly. We know he is good because others fear him and they say he is good. But holding storms end wasn't strategy but rather his will. The only war he really won was the greyjoy rebellion, along with everyone else. He should have attacked kings landing way earlier and even if he won and Tywin never showed up it wouldn't be a win out of great strategy but rather because he had the number and kings landing had Joffrey. Loosing this battle and not anticipating that Tywin is coming a actually a real flaw. He might win against the Bolton's but we don't know that yet. So for me at least the only reason I think he is good is because others say so and that makes him not any better than tarly. For comparison, robb won many battles and Robert won the rebellion so we know they are really good, so for me robb is better than Stannis
@Rengokuo4o6 Eh... Robert and Ned (along with half the rest of the nobility, including Stannis, Tywin, the Mountain, Jorah Mormont, and more) landed on the Iron Isles and finished the war, but by that point the Greyjoys were already crippled. They aren't an army power, they're a naval power, and it was Stannis who defeated them at sea. Stannis was responsible for the decisive cornering and destruction of the legendary Ironborn Fleet, which is ultimately what made invading the Iron Isles possible to begin with.
Stannis did incredibly well during the Greyjoy rebellion (before the main story started). And Stannis holding Storm's end wasn't just a matter of him having an iron will, it was also a matter of convincing his troops to not just surrender. In the books, Stannis smashes the wildling army while being horribly outnumbered. Stannis is also likely going to beat the Boltons on the field in the next book.
The battle of summerhall was actually one battle in three parts. Robert found out that three of his bannermen were going to side with the mad king and meet at summerhall so he acted first and fell on each army as it arrived
Eddard Stark said that if Rob had his own way, they would still be fighting the rebellion, i think he is a good tactical commander, but i think most of the strategic command was probably left to arrin and/or Ned...
Robert Baratheon's last tactical masterstroke, is to die at the right time. A lot of the chaos that follows his death, is down to his bad decision's. However he would be remembered as a king, who presided over a long period of peace and stability.
I never see any mention of Ramsey Bolton in these lists. Dude was twisted with no morals to think of but he absolutely was a clever commander capable of out-thinking hia opponents and using their own weaknesses against them to avoid battle before it happens. He spends the books playing the Greyjoys against themselves and in the show he deployed some seriously innovative tactics. You have to be a tactical wizard to get a full encirclement going.
I would say leaving Storm‘s End open was an ok outcome, this is what castles are for, and Storm‘s End is the GOAT when it comes to this: Mace can‘t take the castle quickly, so he is faced with the choice of laying siege or pursuing Robert. Being Mace, he lays siege, which allows that one castle and its tiny garrison to neutralize Mace‘s *entire* Army. Not too shabby. But even if Mace had pursued Robert, this then leaves a big enemy stronghold at his back and, worse, would allow Stannis to potentially raise additional troops from Robert‘s vassals and add them to the Rebel cause. And leaving a lesser force behind to prevent is itself a big risk. And yeah, defending his lands and foiling Mace at least temporarily would have been even better, at least in the short term. On the other hand, unless he takes out the *entire* Tyrell army, it could also lead to him getting pincered by Mace and Rhaegar, or worse, Mace, Rhaegar and the Dornish. It‘s likely that his position was always untenable and escaping with his army intact to link up with his much more numerous allies in the North is probably the best outcome. W.r.t. Ashford, Robert‘s approach should arguably have been: see if Mace f*cks up and gives you a big advantage to exploit that lets you do some easy damage to him. But don‘t mess around with grand napoleonic aspirations. Strategically he needs to link up with his allies, and there‘s too much that could go wrong in the meantime, with too little potential gain. So, Robert going at this offensively, but then beating a retreat when it doesn‘t pan out is overall pretty solid.
In the books the night king (I forgot what he’s actually called) is probably a ballin commander, or he’s very bad, they may be looking for a new one. If anything he’s got an A in patience.
Not a great analysis of Robb imo. His decision to keep with house Frey was not blind faith. It was his only way to keep in the war and rescue his sisters. It was either that or return to Winterfell in shame and him underestimating Frey's viciousness was his only mistake. He's the only one who never lost a battle and his victories were most impressive, i'd give him 1st spot on the list. And yea, i know You fanboy over Bobby B but he's a crap of a commander and was it not for Ned he would've lost his rebellion at its beginning, he has no place on this list and everyone in Westeros knows it. Get Blackfish some credit instead.
He was one of the best. His failing was not explaining his plan to edmure. Think about it. Edmure only attacked because he Saw a opportunity. Plus he was lord paramount of the river lands and he saw innocent people being slaughtered. The same people he was sworn to defend. All Rob had to say Is that he needed to trap tywin and it was essential. No need for full details but the why behind the order. It reminds me of the sun zu quote
There's really no contest on him being nr 1. Allegiance switching, making others switch allegiance. Knowing when the fight and when not. The man never lost a war because of it.
i surprise Ned is not on the list, He is the one that is credited with strategy when it comes to winning the throne in fact it wasn't until Ned brought his army from the north that victory became a a possibility for the rebels and Robb's victory where hint to be because he was Ned's son only Stannis was comparable to Ned in the books when it comes to warfare
The thing people don’t realize is if war had happened with Robert alive the drinking would’ve ceased. Man’s wanted enemy blood and just substituted wine. Best commander in GoT and it’s not close
What do they say? Amateurs talk strategy; experts talk logistics. I always saw Tarly as a logistics guy: keep your army fed and reinforced and win. Stannis too.
I am not very into the lore of these commanders, but from what I can see on screen, I think Ramsay Bolton needs a spot on this list. Cunning, manipulative, and self-aware; he knows when and where to hit on morale, when to take the initiative, how to bait the enemy into a disadvantageous position, and has the best use of shield wall against much stronger but less disciplined wildlings.
Robb was smart on the field, no doubt. Robb also emptied the entire North of soldiers and left no defence against the Ironborn. Then he married a random girl when he should have married the Frey girl. He may have won the war if he kept his word.
Yeah I wouldn’t put Robert on this list at all. His war was waged by Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, and the Blackfish. Stannis should be #1, especially considering his naval genius-something not mentioned in the video. In his first ever naval engagement he crushed the entire Iron Fleet during the Greyjoy rebellion.
I want to know who would be your your Top 10 Warriors across all tv shows and movies. Or 5 Warriors from other IPs who would beat the Mountain- Conan, Geralt of Rivia, King Arthur, Beast Master, He-Man, Strider, etc.
People say Robert's weakness is the fact that he didn't want the Targaryen line to survive blinding him. I say this when it comes to war and an actual enemy that was in his sight. Robert would steel himself and go in full warlord commander mode again. The dude was so good at what he did that his only real weakness was growing fat and bored from peacetime. They had to have him killed to start things rolling for Game of Thrones.
Rob Stark (at the Show) literally sacrifices 2000 men, as a bait. in order to achieve a great victory on another battlefield...but tactics like those maybe cannot win you the War, especially when u are into your enemy's territory and outnumbered
Tywin operates on enemy ground all the time with a big army and long supply routes. Robb Stark tried to lure him further into this area where he could outrange and beat him. Tywin have to do this to show his strength to keep his bannerman close and "happy".
I still dont understand how everyone blames robb for the mountain being alive and not the guy who disobeyed a direct order just because he wanted glory. No robb didnt say why but HES THE KING THATS WHY. You think tywin told all his men the reasoning for his plan. No. Cuz they knew to shut up and follow orders. The mountain escaping wasnt robbs fault. At all.
Great job on the video, even if I don't always agree. (But that's the way it should be.) I'd never seen your content before, and you earned my subscription, so great job. I'll be looking forward to more quality content from you, keep up the great work! :)
Naw Grey Worm put the unsullied IN FRONT of the obstacles they placed to slow down the white walkers. This meant his troops had to sacrifice themselves to allow others ro escape....through their own obstacles. Grey Worms strength is somehow losing "only half" of his army at Winterfell....that and army teleportation down to Kings Landing
I would argue that Tarly and Grey Worm barely qualify as strategists, but what they DO accomplish well is be peerless drill masters on the frontline. A fundamentally different skill set than strategy, but useful in its own right. Both found themselves bolstering strategists above them, not requiring them to be strategists themselves.
Honorably mention should also be King Daeron I. He came the closest to conquering Dorne than even Aegon the Conqueror, and he did it without dragons! Only reason he lost was the fact that he was murdered under a peace banner.
I would've put Robb on place #2 because he know how to split his forces ,and command it more troops than all others exept Robert Robb : 37 k Stannis 21k Grey worm 10 k
Very true Falvius, Thom also made some great arguments for Rob at number 1, dude really was a prodigy at war. Thanks for watching as always Flavius! Liam
For me...its so hard to put Stannis above Rob Stark. So far, every battle, he has been beaten. That hold up to the point of eating each other, but holding it anyway is nuts, but outside of that, he has lost.
Where is Brynden Tully? He was responsible for half of Robb's brilliance on the field. I get that he is sort of like Tarly in terms of how he is highly praised without much information about his earlier campaigns, but he was easily the most important commander in Robb's arsenal, and on top of that, he managed to recapture Riverrun. He should be at least above Tywin.
Not only managed to recapture Riverrun, he would also have kept it if the other side didn't have his nephew. What people also seem to forget is that Jaime Lannister looks up to Brynden Tully as well and that has to count for something.
To be fair on on Randyll Tarly not going after Robert Baratheon after handig Robert his only "defeat". He was still a bannerman to the Tyrells. Who very likely wanted to play it safe by besieging Storm's End instead of chasing Robert. So if the rebels win, -which they did- the Tyrells can just abandon the siege and say "Sorry mate. But we didn't really do a whole lot for the Targaryens anyway." And if the loyalists won, the Tyrells can say that their siege -and eventual subjugation- of Storm's End as their contribution to the Targaryen war effort.
I think Stannis and maybe Robb could actually be better at leading armies than Robert assuming they could avoid getting into a duel with him. That's not a knock on Robert at all though.
Stannis is an overrated commander, the Blackwater was an unmitigated disaster that could have been avoided. In the Books, Davos notes that the ships are too close together due to the arrogance of the fleet commander. The Battle on Ice hasn't happened yet and the siege of Storm's end (Whilst Impressive) is not really a military feat as it was mainly pure stubbornness that carried him there. The whispering woods and the destruction of Stafford Lannister's host put Robb firmly above him.
I don't think he's overrated, remember this guy is the one who smashed the Greyjoys fleet in the Rebellion and that is no mean feat in the slightest considering that the Greyjoys are at least in the conversation for the most formidable naval power in Westeros. The Blackwater was all but won until the wild card Tyrells showed up, Stannis suffered Tyrions tricks, but he quickly turned it back to his favour and nearly had the city. Very true regarding the battle of ice, but all signs point towards Stannis thrashing the boltons. I think withstanding a siege does still count as a military feat, if a very slow and boring one 😂 your still technically defending against an attack its just less intense 😂 thanks for watching Dmaugdorf! Liam
He could not forsee the wildfire + he had the numbers by his side. There was no need to have a tactic so he would lose almost no men, as overrunning the walld with his men would‘ve worked perfectly well, if it wasn‘t for the wildfire and the relief force from behind. Stannis being overrated is a very bold claim. Stannis would surely outsmart Robb in a 1v1, although Robb‘s definetly Top 3 commanders in GoT. Tywin IMO is overrated, but not Stannis
I really need the explanation of why Stannis is making it into the top 5. All that was said is that he knows about justice, his loyalty is earned, and he is a great in strategy and all it comes to the military command - and the last of it has absolutely no proof. He failed the siege of King-s landing, and speculations that he would have won without Tywin coming do not give him any sort of advantage, as he was fighting against Tyrion and Joffery, where the first one knows a good theory, but not by a mile a skilled military commander, and second one is Joffery, and the forces available to them seems smaller than the Stannis posses. Secondly, he managed to outsmart the wildlings (it's not even a feast to bring up) and thirdly he lost the battle for Winterfell. Not in the books yet, but what actually is there to bring him up as a competent commander? Eating the same meal as his soldiers boosts up loyalty, but it's no way near the loyalty that is earned by actions and honour. And even with it, it's one of the factors which other commander in one way or another have, not the actual justification. If the commander have not won a single battle, no matter the odds, he cannot be named a good one. And final point, in show only at least, it seems that Stannis compensate his incompetence as military commander with magic. Everything from beating his brother to march on Winterfell was secured by it. I really hope that in the books he has some glorious backstory of being almost as good commander as his brother was, but from the show alone, and the description in the video, his place is secured in the list purely on author's favouritism of a character, and nothing more.
Yeah never liked Stannis. He didn't have any victories as far as I know and his claim isn't good either. His brother was king so he's king too because the guy died!? Nah they just like him because they believe he would be a "fair king" but with the game of thrones the corruption is too much. Heck half his decisions come from the red witch. SMH
Stannis is a hell of a commander in the books, and even his show version basically shares the same track record. During Robert's Rebellion, while he was still basically a teenager, Stannis held Storm's End for a year with only a few hundred men against the enormous Tyrell army. Defending against a siege is not just about denying access to the enemy, but keeping the morale of your men high while they starve. During the Greyjoy Rebellion, Stannis led the combined royal fleet against the Greyjoy fleet and utterly crushed them, beating the Greyjoys where they were strongest: in their sea power. The rest of the war was basically a mop-up job after that. The attack on King's Landing was Stannis' only major defeat in the books, and even then, he came dangerously close to victory. Neither the wildfire nor Tyrion's trickery could stop him. The only factor that Stannis not accounted for was Tywin Lannister's mad-dash forced march from Harrenhal to King's Landing. Later, in the North, as you mentioned, Stannis smashed Mance Rayder's army. Outsmarting the wildlings might not be all that difficult in most cases, but they had around 100 thousand men. But you can't deny that Stannis had the perfect strategy: aim for the head. He attacked Mance Rayder's camp directly with a cavalry envelopment and beat the entire wildling horde before they could mount a resistance. Now, in the books of course, Stannis marches to take Winterfell from the Boltons with a relatively ragtag army, but neither Ramsay nor Roose are quite in the same weight class as Stannis when it comes to military leadership. Stannis certainly won't fuck up the attack like he did in the show. But, given that GRRM has yet to release The Winds of Winter, the outcome of the battle is still uncertain.
@@luker2693 Thanks for confirming his books achievements. I have no hate for a character, but a show-version has pretty much no mentions of it, and overall seems incompetent, but as you highlighted, he had a solid stands in Robert's Rebellion, so his hype as a military commander is justified.
@@existed3302 In the show, Stannis only really becomes incompetent in the second half of Season 5, when D&D just decided to get rid of him. If I wrote the show, I would have chosen someone with a little bit more presence and personality than Stephen Dillaine to play Stannis, but they got his cold and hard demeanor right. He looks and feels like a veteran commander.
Actually, not telling Edmure the plan in A Clash of Kings probably was a war-losing blunder. Not because of Robert‘s plan, but because Stannis picked that exact moment to attack King‘s Landing. As it happened, Tywin, having been denied the crossing, is still in a position to intervene in the battle, at the last moment, by rushing South. Without Edmure‘s interference, however, Tywin would have crossed the Red Fork and been on the wrong side of the River to interfere in the Siege of King‘s landing, with Edmure‘s forces between him and the way back to the Capital. It‘s very likely that Stannis would have taken the city without Tywin‘s last-minute arrival, as he had an overwhelming numerical advantage over the defenders. And the Tyrells would never have intervened on their own initiative: it took the arrival of Tywin to seal that deal.
One of greyworms weaknesses as well is he doesn't know cavalry. None of the troops he commands are cavalry and his focus is purely spear infantry. If he were to train as a complete field commander he would probably be higher on the list i think
I really feel that Tywin should be higher at least over Grey Worm and Tarly. And to top it off i feel ike people overstate Rob "kicking his ass." One he's never actually commanded against Tywin in the field. Two that battle played terribly in the show with a throwaway line of how there were only two thousand northern troops on the field which made Tywin look kinda dumb. In the books its 18000, Robb ccommits his entire foot and fucks off to RiverRun to break the siege. So in the books he committed a lot more to sell the bit. Two, the Battle of The Camps only goes as smashingly as it does is only made possible by Jamie's prior capture which is facilitated as much by the Blackfish as Robb and those were Jamie's ls not Tywin's. Three, Tywin does the smartest thing possible from the bad position these battles leave him in. Park at a base that can house his entire garrison and send out raiders to destroy the enemies logistical base while he stays ready to respond to new developments on any front of the war. Though Robb's plan to draw him out from that position was admittedly brilliant.
Is Bobby's huge love of battle a weakness? It could lead to rushing his forces in, or even having battles that you didn't need to. That said, he never lost because of this, so as a weakness, at least in his case, it's not a big one. But, it's possible he powered through (taking needless loses), to win battles he otherwise would have lost because of his battle love?
No, Robb was a great tactician, but utterly hopeless as a strategist. All his actions were for short term gains that ignored long term consequences. He made severe strategic blunders in pursuit of tactical gain. That destroyed his cause and killed him. You want the best commander? That's Stannis Baratheon. The man held Storms End with 500 men against 50,000 of the Reach and their navy, he took Dragonstone, defeated the Ironborn AT SEA, took Great Wyck, smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall despite being outnumbered more than twenty to one. The only commander that comes close in ability is Randyl Tarly, but he's hampered because his Liege Lord is an idiot.
Robb strikes me as a brilliant tactician, but a poor strategist. To use a modern example, you wouldn’t put Robb in charge of WW2 as a whole. However, you would put him in charge of the Pacific Theatre or D-Day.
If Tarly had killed Bobby B, it wouldn’t had accomplished much, Stannis would’ve just filled that void. Most of the Rebellion would still have the Northern, Vale, and Riverland forces with a more prudent Stormer Commander.
honestly had Robb inherited from his namestake the ability to sleep with a chick and forget her name he might have won
😂😂😂 absolutely true, I think the Karstarks was also a bit of an issue as well though! Thanks for watching as always David! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips The Karstarks were kind of the last straw in terms of Robb (and Cat's) mistakes. But on their own not the worst. The worst is sending Theon off, followed by 'letting Jaime go'. Without Theon, the Iron Islands probably don't take Winterfell and as long as Jaime is a hostage; the worst case scenario is Robb is taken prisoner. Marrying Jeyne though was super dumb and showed to even those who stayed loyal Robb would put his personal interests above their cause's needs which definitely remains a problem.
@@davidlewis5312I kinda thought if Theon would have stayed with Robb in the Westerlands he would have talked him down from the Jeyne thing. If he had an ironborn near by to convince him that she is spoils it might have played out a tad differently
Hard to give the Unsullied credit in command, as by their own words, "We Obey."
Now with Robert, he undoubtedly won the war but he did also hold vast advantage with The North, Riverlands, Vale, and Storm lands behind him against only The Crownlands, Reach, and Dorne (the weakest of the realms). The Westerlands stayed out of the rebellion for most of it. Interesting what may have happened of Lord Tywin had remained loyal to Ayers (though he had no reason to.)
He made several mistakes, imcluding how he handled the Karstarks and Roose. He should have listened to Roose, while simutaniously be more warry and he should have kept the Karstarks as close allies.
Personally I think that Grey Worm is MASSIVELY overhyped. He’s an excellent soldier due to his skills and upbringing but we never see him make any tactical decisions that qualify him as a commander. His superior just send him in a specific direction and wait for him to come back.
Same thing as Robert Baratheon. I guarantee you give them complete control over their armies with no other influence and they would fail badly. They’re leaders that lead through actions, not strategy. They thrived through the advice of better leaders than themselves.
I just finished the whole thing
Did Danny seriously turn him into a master before dying. 😭 I don't know if that's his ending but it's dirty.
Exactly! He's perfect soldier, but that's it
The idea of Unsullied is to erase any initiative or thinking process in them, their buyer was supposed to give them orders
Let alone Unsullied shield formation is the only tactic he could possibly know, so he would be useless in charge of Northern army, for example
Of course he gets more expirience during his time with Dany, but as we could see from trebuchets plascment - tactics still are not his strong side
Don't get me wrong, he's one of my favourite characters, but ranking him higher then Tywin is straight up warcrime
Tactics and decisions are 2 different things. What you're referring to is strategy. Grey worm and the unsullied are extremely successful because they're drilled in a very specific set of tactics. The issue is they have no strategy if there isn't another commander implementing one for them.
@@DeionSC2 not even tactics. He is successful because it's death or win for them.
In my head Tarly is very much like the duke of wellington. Nothing truly brilliant there but pure competency in staying calm and trusting the theory with resolve to win the day. He definitely will never "fuck up" but won't take mad risks that result in great victories either.
Thats kind of our thoughts too, I should not have snubbed him on the orginal list in fairness, sometimes a calm head and pure plain competentance is whats needed. Thanks for watching! Liam
Wellington was better in defence than attack, but the Battles of Assaye and Salamanca, while not being on the level of a masterpiece like Austerlitz, were both great offensive victories.
Yea, but Wellington also defeated the person who is widely considered to be the best military commander of all time. Even if you only think Napoleon is only top 5 that still puts him in a completely different league than Tarly.
Wikipedia has his record at 38-8-3 (wins-loss-indecisive) for battles where he was in command. I doubt Tarly comes close to that.
He also commanded major campaigns, whereas Tarly was never really a “supreme commander” just someone’s senior officer.
1. Randyl Tarly broke Robert’s army and scattered them at Ashford
2. He separated Robert from them and forced him to flee north into the vicinity of Jon Connington and the crownland forces
3. He was stopped by mace Tyrell when attempting to Pursue Robert, Mace didn’t want to risk his military record and instead added Tarly’s forces to his siege of Storms end.
Most the faults you attribute to Tarly are Mace Tyrell’s Orders.
Yeah, they fault Randall for things out of his control, but give Grey Worm props for things that weren't his decision
It’s like the guy making these videos didn’t do any research at all lol
It is talked by this in the game of thrones history of the rebellion by Margery Tyrell talking about that Tywin or the royals could intercept robert
I would argue that Tarly didn’t have the authority to go after Robert as he is not in command of the army just the vanguard and Mace the ace wanted to siege storms end
We also don't know how many men he had, while its openly framed as it was his vanguard against Rob's army (not just his vanguard)
Robert has the charm of Renly and the tactics of Stannis. Thats why he’s king and the younger two have failed (or as of yet failed) to do so.
No, Robert HAD the tactics of Stannis and the charm of Renly during the war for the throne. Once he killed Rhaegar, Lyanna had died and the war was won, he became a bitter alcoholic, only briefly returning to his former glory during the Greyjoy Rebellion 10+ years prior to the first book/season. Robert in all of the books we have read was an abusive drunk that knew he was too far gone to lead a nation so he left it to his advisors completely, resorting to spending most of his days drinking and abusing and fucking prostitutes.
But if Tywin had been in command at Stoney Sept instead of Connington, Robert would have lost there.
Robert definitely doesn't have the tactics of Stannis
Renly would be king right now if not for black magic
@@godemperorofmankind3.091 Renly would be King if he just knelt to Stannis as his heir. With the combined might of the Stormlands and the Reach, they would have crushed Tywin. Then, a simple “accident” puts Renly and Margaery on the throne.
I actually disagree on the Grey Worm part(in the books especially). The three battles they took part in the books were:
1) The Battle of Yunkai
The sellswords betrayed the masters, and it wasn't Grey Worm who came up with the plan of attacking in the night.
2) The First Siege of Meereen
Again, he wasn't in command, and the main reason Daenerys's forces won was because of Ser Barristan Selmy and Jorah Mormont's sneak attack through the sewers, which, again, wasn't his idea.
3) The Second Siege of Meereen/The Battle of Fire
Outcome inconclusive, but probably a victory. Ser Barristan the Bold was the commander in this one, and the victory would also be attributed to Victarion's arrival and Tyrion swaying the Second Sons.
In the show, the first two are the same, but there are others as well:
1) The Second Siege of Meereen(show version)
Mostly won by the Dothraki and the dragons, plus the masters being complete idiots. I don't even recall the unsullied doing anything.
2) The Siege of Casterly Rock
The only one where the win could be attributed to him, but was it that impressive really? Using spear infantry to storm the walls is kinda stupid, and doubtless caused uneeded casualties. Sneaking through a back door entrance is clever, but not exactly brilliant, and you'd assume anyone who possesses information of such an entrance would definitely take advantage of it. Also he failed to prepare for the Iron Fleet's attack, which leaves another stain on his record (though Euron was cheating using teleportation cheat codes).
3) The Battle of Winterfell/The Long Night
Coming up with, or willfully ignoring the glaring flaws in the battle plans for this one should automatically drop anyone out the running for the top 5.
4) The "Siege" of King's Landing
Won by Dany and her dragons, need I say more.
All in all the reason for success, if it could even be attributed to him, was due to he commanding the Unsullied, not because he ever showed any brilliance as a commander. And if we're critically examining these battles, I cannot justify putting him above Tarly or Tywin.
About the battle of fire I dont thing they will won ,Ser Barristan and Greywarm had serve their part of the story , Danerys will arrive too late to save them but she will go foward with the Greyjoys and Tyrion who I expect to arrive în Mereen after the battle is over
@@flavius5722 Tyrion and Victarion are already outside Meereen in the sample chapters of TWOW, though.
Wasnt Casterly Rock also a sacrificial pawn to get the Unsullied all the way at the end of the other side of Westeros to weaken Queen Daenery’s army and allow Jaime and Randyll Tarly and opportunity to crush Highgarden
@@D2attemp That was in the show? I've haven't seen it, only read the books, but I've absorbed quite a lot through cultural osmosis, and I've never that being directly mentioned as being the case.
@@KaiHung-wv3ulyeah that was in the show. Basically the Lannisters left Casterly Rock unprotected and instead seized the opportunity to wipe out the Tyrells. They knew they were sacrificing the Rock so yeah that victory is kind of bogus for Grey Worm if you wanna get technical
Blackfish should have made this list, most of Robbs accomplishments was because of him, dude was an underrated badass
Great field commander not a general. Grey wolf has as much to do with Robb’s success as any of his allies.
I need the 40 minutes plus videos that break down the topic in maximum detail not these short ones
Be grateful.
Crikey. 7 save us. 😂 - Thom
Yes pls
Thought the same thing
Put play speed at 0.5x for 45 minutes of glorious video
Tarly came across like a Robert E. Lee and George Meade in terms of his competency as a general. His greatest asset is being able to coordinate the logistics of an army better than his opponents. However, this can also make him conservative, failing to act at the decisive moments or give commands for an offensive movement when an enemy is on the backfoot. This essentially makes him a solid bulwark to hold a position, but a poor choice to lead an assault against an enemy on the move.
Thats kind of my thoughts too My Lord. Hes definitely highly competent but he lacks that spark that separates the good from the greats and makes him a poor choice for a Vanguard commander in all honesty.
Thanks for watching again matey! Liam
Lositics was actually a massive weakness when Lee took command of the Army of Northern Virginia. He openly distained the adminsitrative work that came with being a commander. He was too into flashy wins in battle, even while fighting a war of attrition against a much larger and better supplied enemy. Which is weird because his ahdnly of adminsistrative work was what made him a really good artillery commander in Texas.
I would not call Lee a conservative commander. The guy attempted two offensive campaigns into the north with a significantly smaller and poorly equipped army. His greatest victories were largely due to his daring maneuvers, familiarity with local terrain, and excellent general staff. Meade is a great comparison though. He was stalwart but hesitant to seize initiative on his own.
The South had a lack of manpower relative to the North, so Lee preferred risky tactics. A war of attrition would've ground down his army much faster than the Army of the Potomac. Lee hoped that a major victory would get the European powers to declare their support for the South, which is what France did for the fledgling United States after the Battle of Saratoga. To this purpose, Lee divided his forces and sent his cavalry on foray into the North in order to obtain a surprise and lighting victory. He rather resembles Robb Stark in that way.
@@LordBloodraven
Yeah no, Robert E. Lee was notoriously terrible with logistics and seeing the big picture. His incompetency played a large part in the defeat of the CSA
Robb is definitely the best, I have no bias whatsoever
Typical show only watcher
@@aidanford4285 I read all the books Robb is the best
@@aidanford4285 read the books, im just playing as Robb in the ck3 campaign with Fandome
Aye, he's the best at getting himself killed for mistakes.
If you ask me he is up there, but keeping his mother around was a mistake. Not to mention sending Theon to the Iron Islands.
Just think of the army Big Bobby B could have had if all his bastard's turned out like him they might even have been able to take on the dragons.
So true! I mean Bobby basically did what Aegon did but without the dragons, that puts his Chad levels beyond that which our modern science can quantify 😂 Thanks for watching RAMOS! Liam
Robert Baratheon big weakness was he’s a hot head at least by the time of a game of thrones his anger towards the targaryens caused him to toss reason to the wind someone really intelligent could have exploited that
Definitely as a political leader, however I think that anger helped him quite a bit on the battle front 😂 thanks for watching! Liam
It also happens to be the very reason he rebelled and won in the first place. He's brash, sure, but given a favorable context, that brashness can win thrones.
@@DarkVeghetta it’s also how the Romans lost just about every battle they fought in the first half of the second Punic War what I’m saying is that it causes just as much recklessness as it does focus by the time of AGOT Roberts anger bred recklessness we did see it do him in but a general like Hannibal or Cesar or Alexander would have used his anger to knee cap his army and end the rebellion swiftly
@@user-ok7kz8ru2q We have no idea how such a match-up would fare, really.
However, I'm also inclined to give the hypothetical win of such a scenario to Caesar and Hannibal, but Alexander is much more of a coin-toss, since he had very similar strengths to Bobby B and one might end up killing the other on the field before the troops really finish duking it out.
Regardless, Bobby's enemies did not have generals of that caliber, let alone warriors able to take him in a 1v1. Again, context matters.
Not downplaying Big Bobby B here, but a lot of his victories early in the rebelion was against smaller armies. He messed up against Tarly, he would have lost the battle of the Bells had it not been for Ned Stark and Jon Arryn coming to his rescue. Sure, Bobby won the battle of the Trident, but he got wounded during battle, meaning he probably wasn't the sole commander, as we know Ned Stark, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully. And Ned was the one who lead his army againt Kings Landing, suggesting that Ned saw fewer losses. I'm not saying Bobby ain't number one, but Ned should be on this list. Because Ned was obviously a great general, and he is the guy that taught Robb. Grey Worm should not be on this list, but Ned should, if only because Ned was Roberts number 2 guy.
Sorry about any misspellings. I'm norwegian, do english is not my first language
Bobby B also had the advantage of having his foster father, Jon Arryn, as his mentor and advisor. We never got to see or read much about Jon Arryn, but it’s implied that while he may not be Tywin level of tactics and intelligence, he wasn’t far off. He also had Ned who while young, proved to be a much more capable military commander than warrior.
George Martin says it multiple times in the books. A young Robert Baratheon was the embodiment of the deity, The Warrior. He was a god of war, not a god of tactics. A young, 6’4 200lb Robert didn’t win wars because of his ability to lead men through his mind, he won wars through his ability to lead men through his might.
Battle of the Bells wasn't even a battle until Ned and Jon Arryn arrived.
He should not be number 1 though lol. He has great generals but he isn't one himself. Stannis is called the greatest general. Robert is called the greatest warrior. Those titles are pretty clear.
@@WileeCoyote1516 He did win 3 battles in a single day. That's no small feat. It requires great deal of personal heroism as well as equally great understanding of battle.
You could say that Robert's generals deserve a lot of credit for his victories, which they do. But you could say that for Stannis himself, who likely benefited from Davos' experience in his victory against Victarion.
I might be inclined to say its Robb who deserves the top spot with how impressive his victories were. But the point remains, Robert Baratheon is the only man who can boast of the greatest military achievement in Westeros. That of actually conquering Westeros without any dragon cheat codes.
Most anglophones are monolingual or poor at speaking another language. With the exception of an +80 year old Swedish woman, I can't say the same for any Scandinavian that I'm aware of.
What about Khal Drogo? We don't have enough information about him, but
1) he's called "the great khal",
2) he's leading a warlike nomadic horde so clearly he has to be competent or he'd lose wars and then his power,
3) Viserys apparently thinks it's plausible that Khal Drogo can conquer Westeros because otherwise he wouldn't marry Dany to him,
4) after the attempted assassination of Dany, Khal Drogo himself promises to conquer Westeros (implying that he thinks it's possible, and delusional warlords don't live long).
5) He must have won a bunch for Drogo to be called "the great khal" and we don't actually see him lose a war, or have there be any serious threats to his power.
If anything, I say he a good commander for a Dothraki. That's it.
That's a good argument, but I would counter that his big problem is that he likely never fought with an actual, professional army. Of course he definitely defeated lots of rival khals, but even then those and the Free Cities rulers (which are much more merchants than warriors) are the only enemies he fought. We don't know how he'd do against an army with good equipment and iron discipline, like a Westerosi army or the Unsullied (especially since we already hear about Dothrakis getting smashed by Unsullied in the past)
Ramsey Bolton deserves an mention. Yes he’s a psychopathic monster, but he was a great military commander as portrayed in the show. He used a raid to weaken Stannis’ force, and then defeated him with a textbook double envelopment. His strategy at the battle of the bastards was executed to perfection, as he was able to draw the Starks in and completely surround them like Hannibal at Cannae. The only thing that got him was a last minute arrival of the Knights of the Vale.
"Interesting thing about my father: he built our house up from near ruin, he built our army, he built Casterly Rock as we know it." - Tyrion
Tyrion's admiration for his father's achievements is evident, despite their complicated and often adversarial relationship. This quote underscores Tywin's legacy and his pivotal role in shaping the fortunes of House Lannister.
His biggest mistake was leaving the bathroom door unlocked and letting Tyrion build the sewers of Casterly Rock :D
My assumption has always been that Robert won the rebellion because of Ned. Robb without ever having gone to war beat Tywin so bad that he rage quit the
War of the 5 Kings by violating guest right. Something that the entirety of Westeros holds sacred. I figure Robb got his tactical genius from Ned. I have no doubt Robert was a good fighter during the rebellion, but he never struck me as a deep thinker. I'm guessing Ned decided the battle plans and Robert went out to hit things.
I think it's hard to judge Tarly for the escape of Robert. He beat Robert in the field, then the Tyrells with their own little agenda arrived and turned what could have been a decisive victory into an indecisive one. Heck, it's pointed out more than once that the Tyrells didn't wanna participate in the war at all whilst technically staying loyal. This is a political move by Tarlys superiors, not military failure on his end. They just found the biggest, best defended castle and besieged it without really risking their army at all. They didn't participate in either or the deciding battles of the rebellion at all. Hard to rank the man when his only known accomplishment is this
Jon snow was the commander we turned to, when night was the darkest🥶
Great video, I do think that Ned should be given an honorable mention, Ned taught Robb everything he knows. And the big man George has also said that Ned was one of the best tacticians in the realm.
Aye my crazy Scottish friend! I think Bobby's spot is kind of half Neds in all fairness. Bobby does credit a few battles that he gets the glory for to Ned.
Thanks for watching as always matey! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips Put those two against the Walkers and the problem wouldn't exist.
Another commander who i think is underrated is ormund baratheon robert's grandfather
he led his army into the step,stones to fight the golden company the best sellsword company in Essos with nothing but green boys who didn't have the same experience as them
and the nine penny kings commanders knew the step,stones better than the westerosi meaning they could have trapped them their easily and they had experienced commanders who had fought in thus area before
Jet despite these disadvantages ormund managed 5o land his army in the step,stones succsessfully without suffering to much damage
his only flaw that we know of is that he died in battle and we dont know the kontekst of how he died other than maelys the mounsterous killed him.
I feel like Renly gets overlooked as a commander, least Book Renly. He does not have much experience and a lot of people don't understand what he was doing. But he basically gathered the kind of support Robert had, took his time marching to kings landing, for a reason. Starved the city by blocking food, let the Lannisters and Starks wear each other down. His plan was solid and while others thought he was just fucking around he wasn't. This is beyond the fact he had the biggest army with 100,000 foot soldiers plus his cavalry. Basically if Stannis hadn't cheated with magic he would have marched to Kings Landing and when he did the Lannisters even if they defeated the Starks would be in no position to stop him. Only reason they stopped him was cause Tyrells switched sides cause they were for Renly not Stannis. The dude had the war in the bag and in a non fantasy setting simply would have won. Not bad for a commander who didn't have much experience.
D&D will never be able explain to me how a commander who overcame a year long siege being starved out would be impatient enough to burn his daughter over some snow.
Top commanders in Game of Thrones. Military and military minded.
1. Robert Baratheon
2. Robb Stark
3. Stannis Baratheon
4. Ned Stark
5. Grey Worm
6. Tywin Lannister
7. Tyrion Lannister
8. Jon Snow
9. Mance Ryder
10. Sansa , Olenna , Baelish and Daenerys ( not commanders per say but had some battle minded plans )
Stannis is the epitome of "you better kill me if you get the chance."
1) Bobby B
2) Robb
3) The Mannis
4) Tarly
5) Greyworm
Rob was the best King, no doubt good commander as well Only his heart/love led him to his downfall
Granted I’m the books he was
A horomones teenager..it’s
Pretty realistic
Tarley was a valuable Lord; in some ways, he was like Ned Stark. The show, with its one-dimensional thinking, made him a villain. Yes, he was cruel to his son, but so what?
I disagree... I don't think it was a mistake on rob starks part... Rob chopping off Jamie's hand was a great threat and keeping him alive was wise he had no way of knowing that mom would let him go.... And executing the carstarks was also valid not just because it's murder but before the carstarks killed the captives rob still had some genuine captives.. but now he had nothing... He gave more then fair offers to the iron Islanders and even gave fair terms of peace to Tywin Lannister... And if Remley was never assinated then Rob probably would have joined him as they were already close to making a deal... I think his biggest mistake was either Jolly Rotten Luck, not knowing how to handle unexpected stupid decisions by houses like Iron born, or alternatively letting his emotions cloud his judgement.. but I think nothing was wrong with his honor.. every offer Rob gave politicly was more then fair to be honest
There is a solid difference between "It was a mistake" and "that didn't work".
Like betting all in on a full house is not a mistake as that is a damn good hand. It is not a mistake just because unknown to me my opponent has 4 of a kind.
@@neodigremo I completely agree... i genuinely feel like Rob gave more then fair offers to everyone including the ironborn. I just think that it just didn't work... And some things were beyond his control
@@professorsassafras weeeelll….. the Ironborn thing wasn’t likely to work ever but Rob had reasons to think they wouldn’t trash his lands and Theon would not betray him.
And his marriage decision was a flat out mistake. As was his not telling Edmure (the de facto Lord of the Riverlands and so his flat out most vital vassal/ally) of his plans properly. But this is a handful of mistakes that make sense for the character. Most other issues were just things not working, such as allying with Renly. No shadow baby and this screws the lannisters completely
@@neodigremo I know most fans probably hate this opinion, but i think it was right for Rob to marry the girl(jeyne westerling) because he soiled her and needed to take responsibility. The deal Catlyn made with the Freys was just so stupid.
@@Rengokuo4o6 It wasn't an incredible deal, but considering Rob was at that point unproven, really needed the help AND the Freys are one of the stronger families out there it wasn't the worst deal you could get.
And once he slept with her the moral thing was to marry the girl. Sleeping with her at all was the mistake. Though you could argue that, moral or not, politics means Rob should not have married her anyway.
Winning 3 battles in a single day is more than winning battle after battle after battle. It implies he managed to preemptively strike several enemy forces that were about to merge (why else would they be that close from one another) and defeat them in detail. Turning a certain defeat (or at least a costly stalemate) into overall a decisive victory.
That's what you'd expect from Napoléon.
Robert's weakness was in his rage. He was so vengeful to the Targaryen's that he more or less helped traumatize Ned which had so many knock on effects that it basically sealed his own death, Ned's death and more. Big Bobby's B weakness is that he can't keep it going forever and eventually starts rotting. If the realms were stuck in perpetual civil war or the seven kingdoms balkanized entirely, I wager Robert would have been much happier as he would have had a blast with all the fighting.
Thanks for re uploading the video with an extra for us !!. Sorry that it got struck for the copy claim, I here they are so annoying to deal with. A great video in every aspect guys. My personal favourite commander and character is the Mannis anyone who says other wise is a traitor that is certain. Keep up the great vids !!!!!
Tarly is not alone. Connington also had a very good chance to snuff out an injured Bobby B. at the Battle of the Bells.
Still no Night king? his troops follow orders like no other
😂 thats actually a fair point, dam it Kyle I can't believe we missed the opportunity for that joke pick 😂 thanks for watching as always matey! Liam
7:13 I disagree. Even if Robert had died, the war was far from over. Ned Stark still would've marched south and joined up with Jon Arryn. Then, they probably still would've gotten Hoster Tully on their side as well.
Totally agree. The main issue was that Robert won the majority of the Stormlands over with conquest due to them supporting the Throne. So they would probably have turned against Stannis, freeing up the Reach laying siege to Storm's End.
Stannis is the best commander and it’s not even close.
-Withstood a year long siege in an uncertain war.
-Conducted an amphibious operation taking Dragonstone with ease
-Crushed the Greyjoy fleet in one fell stroke
-Assaulted the largest Greyjoy island and took it
-Acted as master of ships for years
-Almost took Kings Landing against insurmountable friction (ie - Renly, Tyrion’s Mountain clansman, wildfire, water chain etc
-He did this with a few vessels from Dragonstone and just the Stormlands
-Proceeded to regroup and changes his entire strategy
-Crushes a Wildling Army of 100,000 with 1,500 men
-That army had giants and Mammoths wtf!
-Proceeds to March on Winterfell while his host swells and the Iron bank becomes his ally.
This man did all this with almost 0 supporters at the beginning of the war and limited resources.
Robert had almost half the realm on his side during his rebellion.
Stannis is probably the best commander Westeros has ever saw.
Would easily be the best king.
I hate D and D so much.
If Stannis’s plotline ends in the same dumbass way the show ended. I’m going to buy a boat sail out to the middle of the Pacific Ocean and sink my own ship to purposefully drown myself.
I have been waiting for this man to take Winterfell for over a decade.
Hopefully my comment brightened everyone’s day. Have a good one 👍🏻
I must admit I wouldn't have really pictured Robert as a commander in his own right, more a captain. Ned and lord Arryn make the plan and point Robert at what needs smashed, a task he preforms with great talent.
The plan of Robb trying to trap the mountain was a bigger move then you think, if im not remembering falsly. His plan was not only too trap him but twyin himself that was behind him what would have been a big succes if im not mistaken.
In the books, its Tywin he plans to capture. The Mountain means nothing in the larger scheme of things.
To be fair to Robb he is the king in the north. A king gives you an order and you follow it. End of story. Deviating from that plan could fuck you up or piss off the king.
Wasn’t there also something about a meeting that the guy didn’t show up for?
Well researched vid. Yeah, the Baratheons are legends. I also got a kick out of the Laughing Storm from the Dunk and Egg books. Kind of family that could be your best mates or your worst enemies, no middle ground.
Tarly seems like the perfect honorable mention candidate, we hear he's great, he just doesn't have many known feats.
If this was my ranking list of top five military commanders in Game of Thrones it would be this.
From number 1 to number 5.
1# Tywin Lannister
2# Robert Baratheon
3# Stannis Baratheon
4# Robb Stark
5# Randyll Tarly
Honorable Mention
6# Mance Rayder
Tywin has to be the best
What if Aemon the dragon knight (with dark sister) vs Arthur Dayne (with Dawn) vs Prime Barristan the bold (with Blackfyre he did kill the last blackfyre) vs Sir Gregor the mountain (with heartsbane, sorry Sam 😭) vs Prime Robert Berathion (with Ice, Good old Ned having his back) vs Prime Jaime Lannister (with brightroar his families lost vilaryian steal great sword) vs Sir Duncan the Tall (with oath keeper) fought a free for all how’d they do? Wanted everyone to have somewhat comparable weapons to spice it up
Haha that would be a monster video, we are looking into some future vs matches though! So keep your eyes peeled! Thanks for watching! Liam
If anyone can weild a sword as heavy as Ice, it's a young king Robert.
1. Aemon the Dragon Knight
2. Barristan the Bold (Don't forget GRRM said that Dayne and Barristan are equals without Dayne, but if Barristan has Blackfyre, no way even Dawn would put Dayne over the edge)
3. Arthur Dayne
4. Duncan the Tall
5. Robert Baratheon
5. Jaime Lannister
6. The Mountain.
Theon Stark is number 1. Do the knowledge! Conquered the Sisterlands. Put down a Greyjoy invasion. The only major house North of Dorne to defeat the Andal invasion. The Andals was probably the best warriors in the world at the time and Theon not only defeated them but he defeated their commander 1v1. Then he went across the Narrows Sea and brought the fight to the Andals in their country of Andalos. Defeated them there, burned villages, occupied Septs, and then brought the heads of scores of Andals back to Westeros. Put those heads on spike across the shore of the North to warn future invaders. There is no commander we know of that has greater feats than that
What did Stannis actually ever win anything with his strategies? I think he is actually somewhat like tarly. We know he is good because others fear him and they say he is good. But holding storms end wasn't strategy but rather his will. The only war he really won was the greyjoy rebellion, along with everyone else. He should have attacked kings landing way earlier and even if he won and Tywin never showed up it wouldn't be a win out of great strategy but rather because he had the number and kings landing had Joffrey. Loosing this battle and not anticipating that Tywin is coming a actually a real flaw. He might win against the Bolton's but we don't know that yet. So for me at least the only reason I think he is good is because others say so and that makes him not any better than tarly. For comparison, robb won many battles and Robert won the rebellion so we know they are really good, so for me robb is better than Stannis
Robert and Ned won the greyjoy rebellion.
@Rengokuo4o6 Eh... Robert and Ned (along with half the rest of the nobility, including Stannis, Tywin, the Mountain, Jorah Mormont, and more) landed on the Iron Isles and finished the war, but by that point the Greyjoys were already crippled. They aren't an army power, they're a naval power, and it was Stannis who defeated them at sea. Stannis was responsible for the decisive cornering and destruction of the legendary Ironborn Fleet, which is ultimately what made invading the Iron Isles possible to begin with.
Stannis did incredibly well during the Greyjoy rebellion (before the main story started). And Stannis holding Storm's end wasn't just a matter of him having an iron will, it was also a matter of convincing his troops to not just surrender.
In the books, Stannis smashes the wildling army while being horribly outnumbered. Stannis is also likely going to beat the Boltons on the field in the next book.
Stannis routed 100K wildlings with 2000 calvary.
The battle of summerhall was actually one battle in three parts. Robert found out that three of his bannermen were going to side with the mad king and meet at summerhall so he acted first and fell on each army as it arrived
Eddard Stark said that if Rob had his own way, they would still be fighting the rebellion, i think he is a good tactical commander, but i think most of the strategic command was probably left to arrin and/or Ned...
Robert Baratheon's last tactical masterstroke, is to die at the right time. A lot of the chaos that follows his death, is down to his bad decision's. However he would be remembered as a king, who presided over a long period of peace and stability.
I never see any mention of Ramsey Bolton in these lists. Dude was twisted with no morals to think of but he absolutely was a clever commander capable of out-thinking hia opponents and using their own weaknesses against them to avoid battle before it happens. He spends the books playing the Greyjoys against themselves and in the show he deployed some seriously innovative tactics. You have to be a tactical wizard to get a full encirclement going.
Honorable mention to the Battle of Winterfell as portrayed in the series. What a mighty tactical performance by some of Westeros' finest commanders.
I would say leaving Storm‘s End open was an ok outcome, this is what castles are for, and Storm‘s End is the GOAT when it comes to this: Mace can‘t take the castle quickly, so he is faced with the choice of laying siege or pursuing Robert. Being Mace, he lays siege, which allows that one castle and its tiny garrison to neutralize Mace‘s *entire* Army. Not too shabby.
But even if Mace had pursued Robert, this then leaves a big enemy stronghold at his back and, worse, would allow Stannis to potentially raise additional troops from Robert‘s vassals and add them to the Rebel cause. And leaving a lesser force behind to prevent is itself a big risk.
And yeah, defending his lands and foiling Mace at least temporarily would have been even better, at least in the short term. On the other hand, unless he takes out the *entire* Tyrell army, it could also lead to him getting pincered by Mace and Rhaegar, or worse, Mace, Rhaegar and the Dornish. It‘s likely that his position was always untenable and escaping with his army intact to link up with his much more numerous allies in the North is probably the best outcome.
W.r.t. Ashford, Robert‘s approach should arguably have been: see if Mace f*cks up and gives you a big advantage to exploit that lets you do some easy damage to him. But don‘t mess around with grand napoleonic aspirations. Strategically he needs to link up with his allies, and there‘s too much that could go wrong in the meantime, with too little potential gain.
So, Robert going at this offensively, but then beating a retreat when it doesn‘t pan out is overall pretty solid.
In the books the night king (I forgot what he’s actually called) is probably a ballin commander, or he’s very bad, they may be looking for a new one.
If anything he’s got an A in patience.
Stannis is great as an underdog but his failure with his brother, losing the reach and the devastation of his army at kings landing has to hurt him.
Not a great analysis of Robb imo. His decision to keep with house Frey was not blind faith. It was his only way to keep in the war and rescue his sisters. It was either that or return to Winterfell in shame and him underestimating Frey's viciousness was his only mistake. He's the only one who never lost a battle and his victories were most impressive, i'd give him 1st spot on the list.
And yea, i know You fanboy over Bobby B but he's a crap of a commander and was it not for Ned he would've lost his rebellion at its beginning, he has no place on this list and everyone in Westeros knows it. Get Blackfish some credit instead.
He was one of the best.
His failing was not explaining his plan to edmure.
Think about it. Edmure only attacked because he Saw a opportunity.
Plus he was lord paramount of the river lands and he saw innocent people being slaughtered.
The same people he was sworn to defend.
All Rob had to say Is that he needed to trap tywin and it was essential. No need for full details but the why behind the order.
It reminds me of the sun zu quote
If Rob stark survived and gained more experience. By true adulthood. (Book Rob.) Would be possibly the greatest commander.
Tywin is a endgame type of leader. He knows that pen,paper and betrothals are just as good as armies
There's really no contest on him being nr 1. Allegiance switching, making others switch allegiance. Knowing when the fight and when not. The man never lost a war because of it.
Thanks for making this ❤
Your welcome Alex, its actually a reupload, hopefully this time without any CR claim material in it 😂 thanks for watching! Liam
i surprise Ned is not on the list, He is the one that is credited with strategy when it comes to winning the throne
in fact it wasn't until Ned brought his army from the north that victory became a a possibility for the rebels
and Robb's victory where hint to be because he was Ned's son
only Stannis was comparable to Ned in the books when it comes to warfare
Indeed. Ned is underrated.
Bobby not giving Stannis Storms end is a pretty big mistake imo, it sets a foundation for #2 commander at the head of a civil war/revolution.
The heir to the Iron Throne has always been granted Dragonstone.
i think you should also include lord jason mallister as well
The thing people don’t realize is if war had happened with Robert alive the drinking would’ve ceased.
Man’s wanted enemy blood and just substituted wine.
Best commander in GoT and it’s not close
What do they say? Amateurs talk strategy; experts talk logistics. I always saw Tarly as a logistics guy: keep your army fed and reinforced and win. Stannis too.
One of tarley’s greatest advantages is being a commander from the reach logistics wins wars.
Praise Agrippa \o/
I am not very into the lore of these commanders, but from what I can see on screen, I think Ramsay Bolton needs a spot on this list. Cunning, manipulative, and self-aware; he knows when and where to hit on morale, when to take the initiative, how to bait the enemy into a disadvantageous position, and has the best use of shield wall against much stronger but less disciplined wildlings.
0:30 , bedroom thoughts…
Robb was smart on the field, no doubt. Robb also emptied the entire North of soldiers and left no defence against the Ironborn.
Then he married a random girl when he should have married the Frey girl.
He may have won the war if he kept his word.
Yeah I wouldn’t put Robert on this list at all. His war was waged by Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, and the Blackfish. Stannis should be #1, especially considering his naval genius-something not mentioned in the video. In his first ever naval engagement he crushed the entire Iron Fleet during the Greyjoy rebellion.
Can you do who has the best army in GoT
Fighting in their home field and in the other areas of Westeros (and Meereen etc)
Made of a note of it buddy!
I want to know who would be your your Top 10 Warriors across all tv shows and movies. Or 5 Warriors from other IPs who would beat the Mountain- Conan, Geralt of Rivia, King Arthur, Beast Master, He-Man, Strider, etc.
People say Robert's weakness is the fact that he didn't want the Targaryen line to survive blinding him. I say this when it comes to war and an actual enemy that was in his sight. Robert would steel himself and go in full warlord commander mode again. The dude was so good at what he did that his only real weakness was growing fat and bored from peacetime. They had to have him killed to start things rolling for Game of Thrones.
Rob Stark (at the Show) literally sacrifices 2000 men, as a bait. in order to achieve a great victory on another battlefield...but tactics like those maybe cannot win you the War, especially when u are into your enemy's territory and outnumbered
Tywin: “We shouldn’t commit our troops to this battle. How about war crimes?”
Tywin operates on enemy ground all the time with a big army and long supply routes. Robb Stark tried to lure him further into this area where he could outrange and beat him. Tywin have to do this to show his strength to keep his bannerman close and "happy".
I still dont understand how everyone blames robb for the mountain being alive and not the guy who disobeyed a direct order just because he wanted glory. No robb didnt say why but HES THE KING THATS WHY. You think tywin told all his men the reasoning for his plan. No. Cuz they knew to shut up and follow orders. The mountain escaping wasnt robbs fault. At all.
@@Tempsdg Thank you to speak facts
Great job on the video, even if I don't always agree. (But that's the way it should be.)
I'd never seen your content before, and you earned my subscription, so great job. I'll be looking forward to more quality content from you, keep up the great work! :)
Naw Grey Worm put the unsullied IN FRONT of the obstacles they placed to slow down the white walkers. This meant his troops had to sacrifice themselves to allow others ro escape....through their own obstacles.
Grey Worms strength is somehow losing "only half" of his army at Winterfell....that and army teleportation down to Kings Landing
Bro editor was savage on that Missandei edit 😢
I would argue that Tarly and Grey Worm barely qualify as strategists, but what they DO accomplish well is be peerless drill masters on the frontline. A fundamentally different skill set than strategy, but useful in its own right. Both found themselves bolstering strategists above them, not requiring them to be strategists themselves.
Robert's biggest weakness was not putting a baby in Cerseis belly lol
Honorably mention should also be King Daeron I. He came the closest to conquering Dorne than even Aegon the Conqueror, and he did it without dragons! Only reason he lost was the fact that he was murdered under a peace banner.
I would've put Robb on place #2 because he know how to split his forces ,and command it more troops than all others exept Robert
Robb : 37 k
Stannis 21k
Grey worm 10 k
Very true Falvius, Thom also made some great arguments for Rob at number 1, dude really was a prodigy at war. Thanks for watching as always Flavius! Liam
For me...its so hard to put Stannis above Rob Stark. So far, every battle, he has been beaten. That hold up to the point of eating each other, but holding it anyway is nuts, but outside of that, he has lost.
Thats the show though, book Stannis is one of, if not the best commander in Westeros
Where is Brynden Tully? He was responsible for half of Robb's brilliance on the field. I get that he is sort of like Tarly in terms of how he is highly praised without much information about his earlier campaigns, but he was easily the most important commander in Robb's arsenal, and on top of that, he managed to recapture Riverrun. He should be at least above Tywin.
Not only managed to recapture Riverrun, he would also have kept it if the other side didn't have his nephew. What people also seem to forget is that Jaime Lannister looks up to Brynden Tully as well and that has to count for something.
To be fair on on Randyll Tarly not going after Robert Baratheon after handig Robert his only "defeat". He was still a bannerman to the Tyrells. Who very likely wanted to play it safe by besieging Storm's End instead of chasing Robert. So if the rebels win, -which they did- the Tyrells can just abandon the siege and say "Sorry mate. But we didn't really do a whole lot for the Targaryens anyway." And if the loyalists won, the Tyrells can say that their siege -and eventual subjugation- of Storm's End as their contribution to the Targaryen war effort.
If the Unsullied used bows, artillery, and stronger but similar sized shields, they'd be even more dangerous than before
I think Stannis and maybe Robb could actually be better at leading armies than Robert assuming they could avoid getting into a duel with him. That's not a knock on Robert at all though.
Stannis is an overrated commander, the Blackwater was an unmitigated disaster that could have been avoided. In the Books, Davos notes that the ships are too close together due to the arrogance of the fleet commander. The Battle on Ice hasn't happened yet and the siege of Storm's end (Whilst Impressive) is not really a military feat as it was mainly pure stubbornness that carried him there. The whispering woods and the destruction of Stafford Lannister's host put Robb firmly above him.
I don't think he's overrated, remember this guy is the one who smashed the Greyjoys fleet in the Rebellion and that is no mean feat in the slightest considering that the Greyjoys are at least in the conversation for the most formidable naval power in Westeros. The Blackwater was all but won until the wild card Tyrells showed up, Stannis suffered Tyrions tricks, but he quickly turned it back to his favour and nearly had the city. Very true regarding the battle of ice, but all signs point towards Stannis thrashing the boltons. I think withstanding a siege does still count as a military feat, if a very slow and boring one 😂 your still technically defending against an attack its just less intense 😂 thanks for watching Dmaugdorf! Liam
He could not forsee the wildfire + he had the numbers by his side. There was no need to have a tactic so he would lose almost no men, as overrunning the walld with his men would‘ve worked perfectly well, if it wasn‘t for the wildfire and the relief force from behind. Stannis being overrated is a very bold claim. Stannis would surely outsmart Robb in a 1v1, although Robb‘s definetly Top 3 commanders in GoT. Tywin IMO is overrated, but not Stannis
There was no way to predict wildfire. That is literally the reason they lost
I really need the explanation of why Stannis is making it into the top 5. All that was said is that he knows about justice, his loyalty is earned, and he is a great in strategy and all it comes to the military command - and the last of it has absolutely no proof. He failed the siege of King-s landing, and speculations that he would have won without Tywin coming do not give him any sort of advantage, as he was fighting against Tyrion and Joffery, where the first one knows a good theory, but not by a mile a skilled military commander, and second one is Joffery, and the forces available to them seems smaller than the Stannis posses.
Secondly, he managed to outsmart the wildlings (it's not even a feast to bring up) and thirdly he lost the battle for Winterfell. Not in the books yet, but what actually is there to bring him up as a competent commander? Eating the same meal as his soldiers boosts up loyalty, but it's no way near the loyalty that is earned by actions and honour. And even with it, it's one of the factors which other commander in one way or another have, not the actual justification. If the commander have not won a single battle, no matter the odds, he cannot be named a good one.
And final point, in show only at least, it seems that Stannis compensate his incompetence as military commander with magic. Everything from beating his brother to march on Winterfell was secured by it. I really hope that in the books he has some glorious backstory of being almost as good commander as his brother was, but from the show alone, and the description in the video, his place is secured in the list purely on author's favouritism of a character, and nothing more.
Yeah never liked Stannis. He didn't have any victories as far as I know and his claim isn't good either. His brother was king so he's king too because the guy died!? Nah they just like him because they believe he would be a "fair king" but with the game of thrones the corruption is too much. Heck half his decisions come from the red witch. SMH
Stannis is a hell of a commander in the books, and even his show version basically shares the same track record.
During Robert's Rebellion, while he was still basically a teenager, Stannis held Storm's End for a year with only a few hundred men against the enormous Tyrell army. Defending against a siege is not just about denying access to the enemy, but keeping the morale of your men high while they starve.
During the Greyjoy Rebellion, Stannis led the combined royal fleet against the Greyjoy fleet and utterly crushed them, beating the Greyjoys where they were strongest: in their sea power. The rest of the war was basically a mop-up job after that.
The attack on King's Landing was Stannis' only major defeat in the books, and even then, he came dangerously close to victory. Neither the wildfire nor Tyrion's trickery could stop him. The only factor that Stannis not accounted for was Tywin Lannister's mad-dash forced march from Harrenhal to King's Landing.
Later, in the North, as you mentioned, Stannis smashed Mance Rayder's army. Outsmarting the wildlings might not be all that difficult in most cases, but they had around 100 thousand men. But you can't deny that Stannis had the perfect strategy: aim for the head. He attacked Mance Rayder's camp directly with a cavalry envelopment and beat the entire wildling horde before they could mount a resistance.
Now, in the books of course, Stannis marches to take Winterfell from the Boltons with a relatively ragtag army, but neither Ramsay nor Roose are quite in the same weight class as Stannis when it comes to military leadership. Stannis certainly won't fuck up the attack like he did in the show. But, given that GRRM has yet to release The Winds of Winter, the outcome of the battle is still uncertain.
@@luker2693 Thanks for confirming his books achievements. I have no hate for a character, but a show-version has pretty much no mentions of it, and overall seems incompetent, but as you highlighted, he had a solid stands in Robert's Rebellion, so his hype as a military commander is justified.
@@existed3302 In the show, Stannis only really becomes incompetent in the second half of Season 5, when D&D just decided to get rid of him. If I wrote the show, I would have chosen someone with a little bit more presence and personality than Stephen Dillaine to play Stannis, but they got his cold and hard demeanor right. He looks and feels like a veteran commander.
Actually, not telling Edmure the plan in A Clash of Kings probably was a war-losing blunder. Not because of Robert‘s plan, but because Stannis picked that exact moment to attack King‘s Landing. As it happened, Tywin, having been denied the crossing, is still in a position to intervene in the battle, at the last moment, by rushing South.
Without Edmure‘s interference, however, Tywin would have crossed the Red Fork and been on the wrong side of the River to interfere in the Siege of King‘s landing, with Edmure‘s forces between him and the way back to the Capital. It‘s very likely that Stannis would have taken the city without Tywin‘s last-minute arrival, as he had an overwhelming numerical advantage over the defenders. And the Tyrells would never have intervened on their own initiative: it took the arrival of Tywin to seal that deal.
One of greyworms weaknesses as well is he doesn't know cavalry. None of the troops he commands are cavalry and his focus is purely spear infantry. If he were to train as a complete field commander he would probably be higher on the list i think
I really feel that Tywin should be higher at least over Grey Worm and Tarly. And to top it off i feel ike people overstate Rob "kicking his ass." One he's never actually commanded against Tywin in the field. Two that battle played terribly in the show with a throwaway line of how there were only two thousand northern troops on the field which made Tywin look kinda dumb. In the books its 18000, Robb ccommits his entire foot and fucks off to RiverRun to break the siege. So in the books he committed a lot more to sell the bit. Two, the Battle of The Camps only goes as smashingly as it does is only made possible by Jamie's prior capture which is facilitated as much by the Blackfish as Robb and those were Jamie's ls not Tywin's. Three, Tywin does the smartest thing possible from the bad position these battles leave him in. Park at a base that can house his entire garrison and send out raiders to destroy the enemies logistical base while he stays ready to respond to new developments on any front of the war. Though Robb's plan to draw him out from that position was admittedly brilliant.
I don't think Tywin should be on the list, but the worst would be the leaders of Winterfell against the White Walkers.
Is Bobby's huge love of battle a weakness? It could lead to rushing his forces in, or even having battles that you didn't need to. That said, he never lost because of this, so as a weakness, at least in his case, it's not a big one. But, it's possible he powered through (taking needless loses), to win battles he otherwise would have lost because of his battle love?
No, Robb was a great tactician, but utterly hopeless as a strategist. All his actions were for short term gains that ignored long term consequences. He made severe strategic blunders in pursuit of tactical gain. That destroyed his cause and killed him.
You want the best commander? That's Stannis Baratheon. The man held Storms End with 500 men against 50,000 of the Reach and their navy, he took Dragonstone, defeated the Ironborn AT SEA, took Great Wyck, smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall despite being outnumbered more than twenty to one. The only commander that comes close in ability is Randyl Tarly, but he's hampered because his Liege Lord is an idiot.
I was looking yesterday for this one
Top 2 commanders are night king and khal drogo respectively...
13:13 why he didn't raise another northern army, as 18 k was just hastely assembled army
Robb strikes me as a brilliant tactician, but a poor strategist. To use a modern example, you wouldn’t put Robb in charge of WW2 as a whole. However, you would put him in charge of the Pacific Theatre or D-Day.
Yes, great point. My thoughts exactly.
If Tarly had killed Bobby B, it wouldn’t had accomplished much, Stannis would’ve just filled that void. Most of the Rebellion would still have the Northern, Vale, and Riverland forces with a more prudent Stormer Commander.