Can a True Christian Fall away From the Faith?
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- čas přidán 30. 01. 2018
- Can a true Christian fall away from the faith? Is the idea of "once saved always saved" a Biblical one? What do the passages about falling away mean? All of these questions are answered in this video.
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When I hear "lose your salvation" I dont think of it being taken from me etc. I think of it as walking away or apostasy. Hence all of the constant talk of " holding till the end" , " abiding in the vine" , "Persevere till the end" etc. etc.
No one can abide by their own willpower
Only by the Holy Spirit can ANYONE abide or endure...
@@tomtemple69I deed the operation of the Holy Spirit through the Gospel - called:
"The hearing of faith"
(Galatians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 1 Peter 1:5)
Excellent. No better way to put it. As Dr. Michael Brown puts it "you can't lose your salvation...but you can forfeit it."
And I think that language works better with the entirety of the Old Testament.
@@divinityofblackness6330Absolutely. Consider the wording of Ezekiel 33:13. Romans 8:13 reflects essentially a parallel of that verse.
I am a a reformed guy... But I love these videos. I appreciate you *brother.* You challenge me... and that's always a good thing. God bless you friend!
Reformed theology is false doctrine
God bless you!
As long as you're being honest and seeking the scripture and not a theologian like White or Durbin to explain it away in textual criticism or Calvinistic doctrine rather than just God's word then you'll be okay.
@@Livelife95ify are you saying that the entirety of reformed theology is false?
If so then that would mean that you are saying that the diety of Christ is false, salvation by faith through grace (alone) is false, etc... do you believe those things are false?
@@BibleLovingLutheran would you agree that the same thing applies to non calvinists?
As a Presbyterian I struggled with these text, as a Lutheran I have peace. Scripture alone! Peace
Scripture alone but your church follows tradition?
I would suggest you have studied more but glad you have peace no matter what. The Scriptures scream to us that God PRESERVES His people. The "if" passages aren't prescriptive. Prove it to me from the Greek. They are DESCRIPTIVE. Showing what the true Christians will do. Perseverance of the Saints. The warning passages are not hypothetical. Apostasy is real...but again not for the born again child of God.
As a Lutheran, I struggled with these texts. Now, as a Presbyterian, I have peace.
There are many passages that suggest that salvation can never be lost or forfeited and there are many passages that suggest that salvation can indeed be lost or forfeited. That is why the Protestant notion that every believer can interpret the Scripture for himself is totally wrong. We need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church, sometimes called the magisterium.
Our Holy Mother the Catholic Church teaches that the state of grace can indeed be forfeited (Dr. Cooper is quite correct to say that "forfeited" is a better word here than "lost") and all it takes is one mortal sin. The state of grace can be regained by a sincere repentance and good Confession.
@@dianeowens6272 The Confessional Lutheran church preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified and that alone is our Peace.
You speak against things you do not understand.
Thank you for making these videos! I have been Christian (Lutheran) all my life and it is always comforting to hear the Truth (even when it hurts, it heals). Thanks be to God!
Peace.
Do you agree with this video? If so, why?
I appreciate your efforts and work. Thanks. I've used
some of your ideas and scriptural references on other channels.
I wish you well in life.
It seems to me that many of the Christian traditions attempting to grapple with the issue of salvation and election are divided because they see it from different vantage points. Because Reformed Christians take seriously God's sovereignty, they attempt to look at it from God's perspective, by which they conclude that God will save those whom he will save. Those who fall away were never elect to begin with. This is what God sees.
On the other hand, from a human perspective it certainly appears that those who once claimed to be saved have indeed lost their salvation. Hence the warnings in Scripture. Arminians and Lutherans take these passages seriously, with the former assuming that we must co-operate with God's "prevenient grace" and the latter taking more of a paradoxical approach yet affirming ultimately that our salvation comes from God alone.
North American evangelicals, i.e., the heirs of the 18th- and 19th-century awakenings and revivals, start out as Arminians but try to end up as Calvinists. That is, they believe that once one has "accepted Jesus Christ as personal saviour," one is in the fold and nothing he does afterwards will take him out of the fold. Hence the carnal Christians that we hear about in these circles. This is a serious deformation of the Reformation.
I myself am Reformed, but I would take issue with those in our churches, especially young people, who believe they can drink to excess and live more or less as they like because they are already "in." That is a presumptuous approach to God's grace that fails to take seriously the need for sanctification.
Thanks for the video. Very interesting.
I just want to respond to your comment where you said, "...Reformed Christians take seriously God's sovereignty,...". All due respect, and I mean that sincerely... I see Calvinists make this false claim all the time. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the non-Calvinists, if not all of the one's I know do indeed take God's "sovereignty" serious. I've studied the subject of the varying views of soteriology for quite a few years and what I see is a mistake made by Calvinists where they define "sovereignty" in an idiosyncratic way. If Calvinists would correctly define sovereignty it would cause them to put aside a bias they have based on a false presupposition of God's sovereignty.
I would agree with you. Some people misunderstand Soverign grace and replace it with a sloppy grace.
PAUL'S WORDS do read and take serious. Because your reasoning is FULL of the creeds and traditions of men and we must discern absolute from relative arguments. This one is an absolute one and not subject to relativism or further context.
Romans 8:38
"38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow-not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below-indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord."
If indeed" nothing in all of creation will ever be able to seperate us from the love of God "then we as Christians cannot fall away even when we try.
I don't care for opinions and am merely here to call out such heresy. I say this as one who has witnessed EL ELYON on his throne, of whom I did not know of and who's face I could not see on the throne, until I was "sanctified" on his right hand side. Not by my works, but by his decree "that [I] might believe" and never can fall away despite wrestling with God and my faith in him.
Sanctification is nothing you yourself do. Our actions are merely the affirmation of such heavenly decrees. But once saved, we are never in no wise - panteles - able to lose salvation. Period.
Because He knew squabbles of this nature would come up, Jesus in His wisdom did not leave us orphans----He established the Catholic Church and gave it infallible teaching authority.
Our Holy Mother the Catholic Church teaches that salvation (the "state of grace ") can be forfeited, and all it takes is one mortal sin. The Church further teaches that the state of grace can be re-gained by a sincere repentance and good Confession .
@@a-sheepof-christ9027 Nothing will separate us from God's love. God loves saints and sinners alike. If we sin and break from Him, we lose our salvation (we lose the state of grace) but He still loves. God punished Adam and Eve but He still punished them.
God even loves the souls in Hell. The fire they experience is only the fire of His love, experienced by the souls in Hell as painful because they do lot love God back. They will stay in Hell forever but God still loves them.
So "nothing can separate us from God's love" does not mean once-saved-always-saved.
Once-saved-always-saved is a license to sin.
So far this is one of the best explanations I've ever heard. God bless you and thanks for sharing
Awesome assessment. I've been writing recently arguments againts OSAS and this is a helpful resource.
I'm a new sub. I really like your content and am currently attending a WELS Lutheran church here in Wisconsin. I love it there.
Thanks for sharing. Certainly thought provoking.
I agree. We don't lose God. God will never let his people go. God will never take your salvation away. But we can definitely reject what has been freely given to us. Who in their right mind would ever want to do such a thing? Not me!
Thank you for an honest treatment of the idea! Finally! My very real dilemma is thus: I see that "there remains no repentance" in Hebrews 6:4-6, but I also see that this passage comes after 3 exhortations of "today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts." If it is my desire to return to Him, is it possible I only *thought* I fell away, or is it possible I'm being deceived into thinking I merely want to repent?
Regardless- thank you for handling this idea in a way that finally feels like someone is being honest with the text and not playing semantic games.
Peace. Do you agree with this video?
Watch Chuck Missler Eternal Security. It will clear up everything
If you even have the desire to repent and recognize you need to, Hebrews 6 is not speaking to you
Have you had some resolution on this issue? How are you thinking about it today?
Hi Jordan, though I do not agree with all your viewpoints in other video's this video is spot on. Good and understandable teaching.
Peace.
Why do you agree with this?
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 I agree because the Bible tells us so clearly we can lose our faith. The parable of the sower is clear on this. Even Paul says I fought the good fight and kept the faith. Why should he say such a thing if he couldn't lose his faith in t he first place?
@@Bijbelstudies, peace brother. That's a good point.
So if it's true and we can lose it, what are we supposed to do? How do we have assurance that God won't let us do that, and that he will help us endure to the end?
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 God will HELP us to endure with His grace but He will not FORCE us to endure. All it takes is one mortal sin and the state of grace is forfeited. The state of grace can be re-gained by sincere repentance and a good Confession.
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 he will help us endure if we are willing.. but if your deceived and want to follow in deception then even God can't obstruct your willingness. Salvation came to us through Jesus, he only opened our eyes but it's because we were willing . He won't forcefully open anyone's eyes nor force to keep them open to him.. you have full choice to close your eyes or keep them open. If I'm willing to keep them open then he will keep it open for us.. he will sustain us..
I’m currently in a heated conversation about this on a social media app today. Glad I have this as a resource
"And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day"
John 6:39
Thanks, appreciate your "good works!"
Thank you so much! I've struggled with the book of Rev where it says we can be taken out of the Book of Life and knew in my heart we can stop believing.
Revelation says he will not blot us out of the book of life. Will not is the opposite of will. Duh!
@@gregorylatta8159 then you haven't read the Book of Rev, not only does it come with a promise, but says if you add or take away from "this book" your name will be blotted out from the Book of Life. BTW, never remembered Jesus saying "duh" to a believer so maybe change your funky attitude foolish one (He did call people fools so, I can say that). Have a great day
@@Shellyspurr Actually the original Greek says tree of life.
@@gregorylatta8159 Gen 21:27 "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life." Greek will be different than English for sure, but just about every English Bible says book. Both are wood literally so, I can accept tree haha. This is interesting tho, id like to know more because the book of Gen says tree of life so, I would like to know more about how they're similar. Thank you for this incite
@@Shellyspurr The Lambs book of life is usually thought of as the list that was made before the foundation of the world of those predestined for salvation. There is much debate within Christianity about this and many issues such as OSAS and many many others. All I can say is no matter what anyone thinks I am going to trust Jesus alone for my salvation and I suggest others do the same.
I just downloaded your book from Amazon.. :)
Thank you for making your videos, especially this one. I have been branching out and learning about other Christian traditions, being raised in reformed, modern churches. I enjoy your approach to these topics, as it is always biblical, easy to understand, and truthful.
If it's left up to me to persevere in the maintenance of faith, I am doomed to failure. I've ever been able to consistently do what I'm supposed to do, or ought to do, or need to do. In fact, the more I try, the more I seem to rebel. I have zero trust in myself. The miracle for me is the fact that when I finally threw in the towel and gave it all to God, I began to do the right things without even having to try very hard. I don't think I chose God....I think that He chose me, and in order to persevere in faith, I have to believe that He's got a plan, and it WILL be completed! If that makes me a Calvinist, then so be it. Blessings to all.
You might be interested to hear this: czcams.com/video/KOlT3bOI0Kw/video.html
It appears to me, that Lutherans are speaking out of both sides of their mouth on this issue. " You can fall away, but don't worry, God preserves his people". Well...which is it? If I fall away, then i was never his, or he would have preserved me.
That is why the orthodox Christian belief from the apostles is endure to the end. We must abide in Christ or else we are cut off the vine.
@@FrMoody I've read several Palamist sermons insisting on "I'm being saved," and Lutherans would not deny it. But what do you so with the broader morphology of "save" in the NT? It certainly says we are being saved, but it also says "He saved us...by the washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit," and "By grace you have been saved."
biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4982.htm
I don't know how Dr. Cooper feels but his hero Martin Luther taught that only the loss of faith resulted in the loss of salvation, that no believer loses salvation by committing sin. "If anyone should still believe in the stupid ten commandments let him chase himself to the Jews," Luther said.
You are begging the question. You assume because we are saved then God would not let us fall away. But this does nothing to address the very real possibility of turning away and resisting his grace. Falling away does not mean we were never his it means we rejected him.
This is the best biblical explanation that I have heard about walking away from the faith and YES because you have a free will you can lose your salvation
I grew up Lutheran and am excited to have found your channel. Concerning this issue, could you give your understanding how someone gets "saved" or receives salvation in the first place? Just to lay some foundation before we go to the Lutheran understanding of losing it or not.
You're not the first person who has asked this, so I will try and make it a priority to answer this in another video.
cool, And could you also tell me what type of Lutheran you are? I grew up in the ELCA church and I know there are different types. That might help with some understanding as well.
I am a pastor in the AALC. We are quite small. We were founded by the old ALC by churches who did not want to join the merger that became the ELCA, because we had some concern regarding their views on Scripture.
Also, you may find this video on the order of salvation helpful: czcams.com/video/Ro3W2k26jZQ/video.html
I watched this video and also looked up the AALC. I would say I find your beliefs more Biblical than what I have experienced with the ELCA. I don't believe all that you are saying and find it all a bit "religious". By that I mean traditions of man more than a relationship with God Himself. It seems that from your video I would agree on the basics of how one gets saved. I certainly don't hold to any teaching that says infants should be baptized or that it accomplishes anything in terms of that child's salvation. Salvation is a choice that we make to accept what Jesus did for us on the cross. A baby can't do that and the parents can't do that for them. However, I'll watch some more and listen to what you have to say. Maybe you can move from water baptism to the baptism of the Holy Spirit as it was in Acts. You do know that is still available to us today, right?!
Romans 10:9-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
How do you reconcile these passages with the passages that teach eternal security and perseverance, such as; John 6:37-39, John 10:28-29, Romans 8:28-31?
Christopher Mount I’m guessing he doesn’t.
Let’s flip the around. How do you reconcile those texts you posted with the ones he pointed out within taking the hypothetical but not possible view or being externally connected to the church without true faith?
@@JonathanGrandt He reconciles them the way Lutheran doctors always have.
bookofconcord.org/sd-election?setSidebar=min#para68
bookofconcord.org/sd-election.php#para12
bookofconcord.org/exhortation.php
Let's face it, the Bible contradicts itself a lot. That's why we need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church. See 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16, and Acts 8:31.
Let's face it the Bible contradicts itself all over the place. That's why we need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church.
Thank you for this! How would you handle the verses 2 Tim 3:5 & 7 - having the appearance of godliness but denying its power & always learning but unable to arrive at a knowledge of truth with all you said here?
Where can your book be purchased?
Thank you for the upload I recently joined a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church in the area I live and I wanted to understand the Lutheran view. Grace and peace to all in Christ. ☺
Could you recommend some reading material about Lutheran Ecclesiology? 🙂
What do you say when a person struggles with and fell away for a time. Are they now not allowed to come back?
Would the prodigal son analogy or Peter renouncing Jesus at the crucifixion count as a means of a repenting or returning to the faith. This has been something I struggle with as a believer.
Very well explained…I used to believe we can’t loose it but based on your explanation with the scriptures…It’s clear
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."
If believing in Jesus grants you everlasting life, you can never stop having it. Otherwise it's incoherent.
It is in the moment you believe that you are passed from death unto life.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24
So is the Holy Spirit a leaking seal till the day of redemption? A new heart of flesh and a new spirit isn't enough to keep someone saved? God can't sovereignly keep someone in the faith ?
@@tomtemple69I don't understand God to force someone to disbelieve or believe in Him. Salvation requires a person's free will and/or volition. The Lord's love is made apparent in that He allows His creation to be able of themselves to serve and obey Him consciously and not involuntarily in a deterministic or fatalistic sense.
@@tomtemple69"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." Matthew 11:12
A particular pious bishop named Theophan importantly clarified;
"The fact that the Kingdom of God is "taken by force" presupposes personal effort."
A person may have initially or for a long period of time sought it only to then eventually have forsaken it. At one point a person may of their own volition work out their salvation, potentially through particular decisions or judgements of such a person they may fall from the faith or cease to work out their salvation.
@@anthonyp6055 "I don't understand God to force someone to disbelieve or believe in Him. Salvation requires a person's free will and/or volition. The Lord's love is made apparent in that He allows His creation to be able of themselves to serve and obey Him consciously and not involuntarily in a deterministic or fatalistic sense."
yeah, that's your opinion
the Bible says otherwise
also, "force" would imply God doesn't have total and complete control over our existence and doesn't uphold our existence moment by moment
Thanks for the video.
People often think that if you can lose your salvation then it is works based, do you have a response to this?
Amen brother.. can I contact you somehow? I really help on this topic.. I'm a pastor from India
1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." People that leave the faith, stop abiding in it, fall away or whatever way you want to state it....were never truly saved....or they would not have left.
The passage you cite has nothing to do with a question of perseverance or the assertion of once saved always saved. John is warning against false prophets, antichrists, liars, deceivers, etc.
I scratched my head on this but unlocked the Lutheran DaVinci Code if you will. In Lutheranism you can have real true regenerate "Christians"...all Baptized barbies!!!! So...because the Sacramental efficacy is of main focus always you must be able to account for those who "fall away" after having received true efficacious grace in the water of Baptism. Once you get past this you see Lutherans squirming whenever Calvin is mentioned (sad because Calvin admired Luther unto death) but at the CORE soteriology....and I mean the CORE...there is no difference. What about universal grace? Same answer. You need universal grace to subsidize the efficacy of infant Baptismal regeneration and you must have true apostates as an excuse to handle when one of the Non Elect falls away (yet they truly were BAPTIZED). So...the reason I say that at the CORE. ...the Sola Fide Monergistic CORE is the same is because Lutheran Theology teaches that the ELECT OF GOD shall NEVER perish ..... im good with that. The Apostates they speak of are visible church stragglers...covenant fallouts. Similar to Federal Vision in the sense that there are the Covenantally Elect (Baptized) and then there are the Decretally Elect (regenerated). We have a similar stance in Presbyterianism with the visible and invisible church we just never teach that A regenerated heart can become unregenerated...its a difference in our language and that for the reasons stated above the Lutherans claim that real born again Christians can be lost but never the Elect. We teach that ONLY the Elect are Born Again.
Shalom.
Marcus Williams
no it’s not. They were with us, which means that they were thought to be Christians, but their leaving showed that they weren’t.
@@itslitgamestv6827 Incorrect. That text is talking about Antichrists. It explains who the “they” are and what the “they” were doing. The “they” were Antichrists and they were outright denying that Jesus is the Christ.
Now, however, since you have come to know [the true] God [through personal experience], or rather to be known by God, how is it that you are turning back again to the weak and worthless elemental principles [of religions and philosophies], to which you want to be enslaved all over again?
Galatians 4:9
God has given us a choice.. if we are willing to continue with God he will sustain us.. just like we were willing to be saved while he is the one who saves us..
If a person wants to return to deceptive teachings and fall away it's their choice.. and God will not stop because we are humans.. not robots!
hello doctor cooper (or anyone who can answer from the lutheran perspective!!!)
Wondering if you can clarify mortal and venial sin? Is this point of someone falling away, THE mortal sin? If not, how does a person know if he/she has committed mortal sin from the lutheran perspective, and if they have, what must they do to return?
Sophia
I don't think Protestants believe in mortal sin or venial sins, it does not fit into their doctrine of "faith alone"
- what does "continue in the faith" even mean?...a person can have faith and still live in a state of sin, (cohabitation, adultery, etc.), he can still go to church and pray, etc. but when he goes home he lives in sin.
Italian Mafias continue to go to church and murder and distribute drugs as routine, Corrupt politicians continue to steal money from their country's coffers while they go to church on Sundays, Biden and Pelosi continue to support radical abortion while they continue to go to mass on Sundays, etc.
Faith alone is not enough, one has to live a moral life to be in faith with God. We must not offend Christ by living with sin.
Nothing is free in this world, all our acts have consequences, even the Hindus believe in "karma" consequences of our action or deed. All human cultures believe that their "god" rewards the good and condemns the bad.
Mortal sin is defined as “full knowledge and consent” deliberate acts that goes against God’s will, grave sins which endanger a person’s salvation, - (procuring abortion, adultery, murder, stealing, etc.) these sins can only be absolved by a priest in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Venial sin are white lies, lifting an apple from a cart, etc. mostly harmless acts. - this can be forgiven by a simple prayer of repentance.
Abortion is both a sin and a crime under Catholic legal codes. As a sin, procuring an abortion must be confessed to a priest. But as a crime, procured abortion carries with it the penalty of “excommunication”: that is, automatic expulsion from the Catholic Church.
So someone wishing to be absolved of the sin of procuring an abortion would first need to have the penalty of excommunication lifted by the bishop before confessing to a priest.
In 2009, Pope Francis will allowed priests all over the world to grant forgiveness for abortion in the sacrament of confession, no need for a bishop to lift the excommunication.
This is part of the Catholic practice that seeks to make it more humane, more merciful and more easily adaptable to the realities of everyday human life.
Pope St. John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis have also all emphasized abortion as among the gravest of sins.
Abortion has been condemned, from early Christian councils in A.D. 305 to the present day..
But how do we know if we've lost our salvation?? What categorize wilful sin? Are we talking about someone who struggle consistently but feels convicted of sin or someone who doesn't care and reject Christ completely after experiencing difficult situations? Are we talking about someone who walks away from community because of church hurt or abuse but ends up coming back because they feel called to repentance? This is a very confusing and terrifying, could you expend on the characteristics of those who did?
I am just recently seeing your videos come up. Any time an individual speaks truth I am thrilled to hear them continue but so many speak a partial truth its exhausting at times sifting through everything they say; and in those cases, I prefer to just let CZcams know I am not interested in seeing the channel recommended further.
You say one can walk away from salvation and I must agree, but you also mention sin and faith?
Sin naturally comes between God and ourselves; as in the Adamic state we prefer to be our own god, our own authority?
I am curious then to know what faith in your view accomplishes; how, where it comes from, by what means?
I do not think faith can be over stated in a Christian world view, but I do think most … by far … who would say I am a Christian believer, lack a biblical understanding of this key?
From the title; Can a True Christian Fall Away from the Faith? I am disheartened, but you did say the langrage being used was to reach a broad viewership?
Could you explain the Lutheran doctrine of election in light of this teaching of apostasy of genuine believers ?
Thank you
It is so important for someone professing Christ's saving work in his or her life, and in wedding that person to the Church, that that believer perseveres to the end, using the power that God gives him or her, and recognizing that God Himself is striving to keep that believer in the fold and family of believers. Always END WELL, with final repentance and humility!
Is salvation through faith alone or is something additional required ?
Some Christians believe that if a saved person enters into a sinful lifestyle and fails to repent then he will still get to heaven but will lose rewards. Their proof text is 1 Cor. 3:13-15 which say, “his work will be shown for what it is … the fire will test the quality of each man’s work … If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames”. Notice that these verses are referring to the testing of a man’s work, not sin.
If the passage in 1 Cor. 3-4 was talking about sin then it would be saying -
I) Those who build with good, golden sins will be rewarded.
II) Those who build with not so good, straw sins will lose their rewards.
Of course this is ridiculous. Whoever heard of building a church with sin or God rewarding someone for sin? In this article, I would like to show that these verses are not speaking about sin in the least but about how we work to build the church on the foundation of the gospel of Jesus.
Beginning with 1 Cor. 1:11- 13 and 1 Cor. 3:1-8, these verses tell us that the Corinthians were fighting about whether they should follow Paul, Apollos or Cephas. Paul said that their focus should be on Jesus because men are mere servants with assigned tasks; one man plants, another waters and each man will be rewarded according to his own labour. Next, in 1 Cor. 3:9-11, he continues on to say that we are God’s workers, His field and His building (His church) and that he, Paul, has laid a foundation as an expert builder and each of us must be careful how we build on that foundation, which is Jesus Christ.
Then 1 Cor. 3:12-15 talk about how we build the church and warn that fire will test the quality of each man’s work. The verses say that we can -
a) Build with gold, silver or costly stones and receive our reward or
b) Build with wood, hay or straw and, although we will still be saved, our work will be burned up.
Building with gold, silver or costly stones represent good leadership and sound doctrine while wood, hay and straw represent poor leadership and unsound doctrine. Sin is not in question here.
So far, Paul has spoken about building the church with either good or poor leadership and doctrine but now he continues on to speak about bad leadership and doctrine which destroys a church. 1 Cor. 3:16-17 say, “Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you [plural] are that temple”. The term “God’s temple” is referring to the church, the body of Christ, and these verses say that God will destroy anyone who destroys His church (see 2 Pet. 2).
Then, from 1 Cor. 3:18, Paul continues on to further warn us not to follow men. In 1 Cor. 4:6 he sums up what he has said so far (from 1 Cor. 3:1) by saying that he has applied these things to himself and Apollos so that we could learn the meaning of the saying, “’Do not go beyond what is written.’ Then you will not take pride in one man over against another”. He is saying that the entire passage is to warn us not to follow men but to stay with what is written. In 1 Cor. 4:2 he said, “it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful”, and it is by not going beyond what is written that we remain faithful to that trust.
So we can see that this passage of scripture has nothing to do with sin. It is a warning for us not to follow men’s wisdom but to use the written Word to build on the foundation of Jesus because our rewards will be according to the way we build.
If we build with sound biblical doctrine then we will be rewarded.
If we build with poor doctrine then we will still be saved but lose our rewards.
If anyone destroys the church then he will be destroyed.
If we attempt to make sin the context of this passage then it will make no sense at all as words like build, labour and work don’t relate to sin. Likewise, sin can’t be related to building with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay and straw unless we say that we will be rewarded for good sins and lose our reward for bad sins. The fact is, sin is not the subject of this passage.
To make it a bit clearer, let’s consider a Christian who dies while refusing to repent of his adultery. Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) believers will say that he will still get to heaven but lose some rewards. This is entirely out of context with the passage in question as the man was not building on the foundation of Jesus while he was in adultery, he was just fulfilling his lusts. He wasn’t building the church while he remained in sin, he was just building his condemnation. The truth is, this passage is taken entirely out of context by OSAS believers. An unrepentant sinner will not suffer a loss of rewards for his sin but eternal condemnation.
Unsound doctrine is sin.
What about a saved person who genuinely loves and knows Christ but falls into a dry season for a period of time and becomes more apathetic about sin for a period of time.. but then comes back to repentance a while later. Is it too late for them?
A born again person can reject his faith.. God doesn't force his will on anyone.. but if your a person who genuinely follow God I don't think hel let you fall away. Hel bring a person back no matter how far he's gone.. but again his willingness wil matter.
If a person will fall away from faith to the point God will cut away him, he will never come back to faith - he is doomed as letter of hebrews undeniably stayed.
To Jordan Cooper And Other Commenters Of This Video: The expression "Once saved always saved," is a logo that asserts only subjective justification (The human subjection to what Christ did for us). What the "Once saved" logo seems to exclude is what Christ has already done for us objectively. What Christ did for us, out of His love for us, is He died on the cross and shed His blood, and he bore our sins and took the judgement for our sins, and He has fully cleansed us from our sins, and Christ rose from the dead and conquered death for us, all by His own merit. Christ accomplished, one time, and for all, salvation and eternal peace
(Peace with God); he saved us. We need only to subject to Christ and receive that the Father has forgiven us through the work of Christ, and receive, from Christ His righteousness and deification imputed to us from Him.
The answer to the question that asks "Can a true believer fall away from the faith?," is in the Bible. We can begin with 1 John 3: 6, which says "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him neither known him (KJV)." This means that the believer's life is not characterized by sin, but is subject to the character and will of God, and not the will of man's sinfulness. Some of the ways man sins can be seen in 1 Corinthians 6: 6-12. As believers in Christ, we, by faith, accept that Christ died on the cross for our sins, and He arose from the dead, and by faith we turn (Repent) from our sins, and by the power of the Holy Ghost, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us from Christ himself, and Christ has fully cleansed and deified us. As believers, we are also dealing with the remaining presence of our sinful will, where we will, either knowingly or unknowingly, to walk out of fellowship with God, which is why we must return to fellowship with the Lord our God through confession to Him by faith and believing by faith that Christ took our judgement for us. A true believer in Christ, cannot remain out of fellowship with God nor out of fellowship with God's eternal peace, but a true believer's conscience of the Scriptures will be a constant reminder to them of their sin, by the true message of the Scriptures, and by the reminder of what the Scriptures proclaim, and the true believer cannot continue to sin and be out of fellowship with God - See Matthew 13: 8, about the seed that fell into good soil. Matthew 13: 3-7 referrs to those who hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and allow the seed to be planted, only to turn from the message of Christ, and they continue to side in with their own will, and are not in fellowship with God's will.
As a non-Calvinist Baptist working out my own understandings of the issue, you really had me agreeing with you all the way through until you said "sacraments," there at the end. Yes, the Bible says pretty clearly that you can cast off your saving faith, and it also says pretty clearly that anyone who keeps their faith intact has iron-clad assurance, but the Bible says 0 about that assurance being based in any part on regularly receiving sacraments. It is faith alone. We can say that faith is our "part" of the salvation process only because it is not a work or an action by which we receive credit. The Bible uses "faith" and "works" in contra-distinction. However, if keeping the faith, and thus salvation, requires any works (which sacraments blatantly are), then the sacraments are what ensure salvation. It is not God ensuring our salvation by giving us the faith we need to assent in trust, but us ensuring our salvation by maintaining our faith through pious activity.
Lutherans baptize comatose family members if there's any evidence they are believers and wanted to be baptized eventually. Lutherans baptize the quadriplegic. And Lutherans baptize babies. I never seen no baby do no work.
If we define "works" as "anything physical that ever occurs", of course the sacraments are works. But by this definition, the death and resurrection of Christ is a work, and we know we are saved by the death and resurrection of Christ. So the definition of "work" in this context must be "anything physical of man's doing" (as opposed to God's doing). Your argument then rests on a presupposition that the sacraments (baptism and communion) are works of man. The orthodox Lutheran understanding is that these are absolutely not works of man, but works of God. If a dirty dish is washed clean, it is not the dish which worked itself clean, but the washer of the dish who did the work. So it is in baptism, where it is not the water which purifies, but the "washing of the water with the Word" (Eph 5:26). Further, we know God does use physical things to accomplish His will. We are physical bodies, and will be reunited with our physical bodies in the last day. We place our trust in the physical blood of Jesus on a physical cross at a precise time and location in history, and His physical resurrection. The sick woman who touched Jesus' garment in Luke 8 was made well by faith, at the moment she touched Jesus' physical robe. A few seconds before she touched His robe, she had faith that once she touched His robe, she would be healed. But she was not healed until physically touching his physical robe. The sacraments of baptism and communion were instituted by Christ Himself and are not ours to do away with.
If the Bible said "pat yourself on top of your head five times and you will be saved" we would all take it at face value. But when St Paul says in Acts 22:16, "Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins", we say we don't need baptism to wash away our sins. And when St Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that "baptism now saves you", we say no it doesn't. And when Christ Himself says in Matthew 26 that "This [the wine] is the blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins", we say it's not actually His blood and it doesn't actually work forgiveness of sins. Faith alone saves, and we must have faith that His Word and the blessed sacraments will deliver what He has promised!
Thank you for Law & Gospel!
Dr Jordan can you tell me your thoughts on Hebrews 6:4-6
What if some people fall away or are apostate and later return to Christ in genuine faith and repentance? I've heard very few of you guys expound on this!
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Phillipians 1:6 Can you please explain how this verse fits in as well?
Philippians 1:6 has to be interpreted in the light of Matthew 10:22 (Scripture interprets Scripture). If we persevere in grace, avoiding mortal sin, repenting of mortal sin if we have the misfortune to commit one, then yes, we will grow to perfection in Christ.
Yes this
Some say that Lutherans believe both that it is possible to lose one's faith, and that it is possible for the believer to have complete assurance of his own salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. ¿Is it true? ¿How can those two sentences be both true? ¿How can I have complete assurance of salvation through faith if I know that I can loose my faith?
I was an apostate before coming back to Chirst. Do I have salvation if I have faith now?
You could be saved. God allows, and in fact encourages, moral U-turns.
Same here im now wondering the same
Yes, God loves a repentant sinner. Look to Christ for your faith. You don't find it through introspection. Get baptized if you haven't been, partake of the Lord's supper, worship him in communion of the saints, study his word and pray to him. Don't spend a bunch of time interrogating your heart, spend your energy seeking to serve your King. Turn that over and over in your mind. Godspeed! Welcome back!
@@guyroszel7584 I never like the word repentance. Gives a lot of weight to the sinner to do. Over time I realize the word, search for healing is a lot better.
@@guyroszel7584 I didn't realize I had fallen I want the HOLY GHOST and not like this
I was attacked and got into Spiritual sifted I want to come back and Satan know I don't belong .He was hitting me hard and I didn't understand. I didn't even read and study. Need to be restored and healed. I had the HOLY GHOST and don't remember what happened and got into flesh lies. The attack s mess my nerves
This is a great explanation of the text. First Get the book, it’s excellent. I love my evangelical brothers and sisters in Christ, but like Dr Cooper I struggled with this issue. With COVID-19 and everything else I can say as a matter of fact my faith is weaker than it was months ago. I still repent and reach out as I need God so much more than I can comprehend. The fact people can backslide to apostasy is real, not through works, but through a lack of faith. When evangelicals say that there are only maybe a few lines in the Bible that indicate you might lose your faith, and eternal security is all over the place, I just could not see that as I read the whole new testament. I found it to be the opposite. I also believe the Lutheran position described here provides the most security for people as I especially dislike how the “fake Christian” argument goes as it either makes people insecure in their faith, or requires them to look at themselves instead of Christ for faith. Again I love my Christian brothers dearly whom disagree with this, peace and In Christ we all must be in this broken world
If this video is true, then what are we as Christians supposed to do?
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 late late response here. You want to know what to do? Look to Christ. Pray for wisdom and discernment so that all of us Christian’s can be United. Just the fact that you’re asking this question means you want to know. Pray about it. Ask for the gifts that you know God is offering you and mean it (with faith) and it’s a done deal. And then use it. I believe from your one comment you are saved but you’re afraid of backsliding. Stay in the word and talk to God and ask for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as he offered it to us! Another gift! Take it. He love you and wants you and all Christians to have the gift of pointing people to Christ in one way or another. You have faith brother? Take it. Never worry and never live in fear. God is with you.
I struggled with this for years and now I’m Lutheran. There’s just no other way to read these texts.
So, question, although we should endeavour to preserve our holiness as saints in Christ by keeping our faith in Christ, why is the concept of works not mentioned in how, by exercising a life of works, this causes us to become more sturdy in our faith in Christ by doing good works in Christ, which would inevitably increase our faith in Him by the doing of good works?
Thanks Pastor for walking the razors edge of the Word of God. I stuggled with this doctrine as God brought me out of Calvinism by His word alone. God's peace be with you.
THIS IS THE ONE YOU NEED czcams.com/video/i3ouCJ5hvBo/video.html
Still Lutheran? :)
@@JoojieXD yes indeed
Can someone who falls away be restored? Or upon falling, are they permanently doomed?
"Peter, the formidable rock, falling into great sin and experienced in struggle, did not despair and did not lose the presence of the Spirit, rather he shed bitter tears from a warm heart and, seeing that, the devil fled from him as though burned by fire." - St. Seraphim Of Sarov
Christ created us with free will, He even allows us to fall into sin in order for us to remain humble and contrite and not become proud as the demons/devils who themselves don't eat food nor sleep, have sexual relations and have knowledge of the Scriptures. Peter denied the Lord three times and supported false doctrine(Judaizing) yet the Lord accepted his repentance and self-correction. God bless!
@@anthonyp6055 I understand your point (and agree full heartedly)...but how do we reconcile that with the Hebrews passage that says "it's impossible to renew the repentant back to repentance"?
I know I'll find the answer eventually...I just need to search.
Thank you. I came to Lutheranism from Reformed Presbyterian tradition. I was a bit surprised when I learned this is the Lutheran understanding, and at the same time I had wondered about these passages + the parable of the sower. I have told a friend who asked about it that, "It is possible to forfeit our faith, but our Lord doesn't make it EASY to, by His means of grace, His shepherding, His making us alive and giving us faith. I heard another POV on this described as God having a piece of chalk in one hand and an eraser in the other, at the Book of Life, and that's not what I see in Lutheran doctrine.
Does God promise to preserve us to the end, or not?
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 The one who endures to the end shall be saved.
The parable of the sewer is not a good way to argue against OSAS - it's about whether the plant bears fruit or not, not whether there is, in fact, a plant.
@@jesussaves2642so we save ourselves?
One of my friends had a true salvation experience. But for many years he lived a backslide life. Yet before few months before his death the Lord restored him to fellowship with him. His last life was very spiritual till his death. In heavenly peace and assurance he died in faith. This proves that a truly born again believer can never loose his salvation. Praise the Lord for His eternal grace.
No it doesn’t. It just proves that if we fall into the Valley and are brought back, it’s a gift from God, not our work. In the same way, it’s God who gives us the gift of Faith, and if we persevere, it’s because of the Holy Spirit, not us. But Scripture is clear that we can reject/wreck our faith.
So I praise God that your friend was like the Prodigal Son. That truly is good news. But I think it proves a different point then you may believe. God Bless
Correct!
Even if they can, I don't believe for a second that God wouldn't be actively pursuing them to come home. The parable of the Lost sheep runs entirely counter in my mind to the idea that someone can walk away and God just let's them go without protest or attempts to restore the relationship.
This doesn’t prove anything, I’ve had friends who were burning Christians then became non believers, they died non believers, point disproven
@@jamesmartinez2350 Can you prove they were "burning Christians"?
Yes, I agree. They can walk away, cease having believing loyalty and love toward God.
I like these videos but I think he missed the calvanist perspective here. The idea isnt that cooperation is not explicitly laid out in scripture alongside faith. Any calvanist worth their salt will agree all day long with that. The issue is this ever present idea that along with personal cooperation, God still simultaneously maintains control over his elect.
If you look to the trinity, does God being 3 persons work within our understanding? Or do we fundamentally believe it because is shown to be true in scripture? Calvanism works the same way.
What would be the FINAL step to "walk away from grace" all together? Simply becoming an atheist or something before that, such as unrepentant sin until the hour of death?
Also would losing faith mean just no eternal life or also suffering eternally in Hell?
You have to distinguish between faith and grace. Not everyone that has faith in Christ is in the state of grace. The devil has faith (Luke 4:34) but no grace. The rich man, in the Lazarus/rich man parable, had faith in God and in his spiritual father Abraham, but no grace. Committing just one mortal sin kills the grace in our soul. The grace of God can be re-gained by a sincere repentance and Confession, but there are people who become so jaded and obstinate in their sins that they do lose their faith and refuse to repent or confess.
Suffering eternally in hell, because all souls must end up in either heaven of hell.
I've heard from a Lutheran Pastor that God gives us the faith to believe......so does he take it away? And what do the words "eternal life" mean if not eternal?.....How many times can we "fall away" and then come back....does Scripture say? I'm not being sarcastic here, I just see so much evidence for OSAS compared to the verses that possibly say the opposite.....shouldn't we go with the preponderance of Scripture?
I think Scripture says that those who fall away can not return. At times it seems almost like there are 2 groups. 1 being Elect and 2 being those who come to Faith. Maybe the truly elect can not fall away but those whom follow Christ can. I’m probably wrong, but I fail to understand how it sometimes seems like there are different rules applied to “Elect” than other Christians.
Eternal life is the knowledge of Him, jn 17.3. It is participation in His uncreated life. When we stop obeying the gospel we become disconnected from grace and need to be renewed. David experienced this and thus said, God take not your holy Spirit from me. See you soon , iakobe.
God never takes away salvation (more accurately called "the state of grace" because no one knows for certain that he will be saved). Nor can any power in Heaven or on earth....except....we ourselves. The state of grace is a free gift, true, but like any gift it can be thrown away. We lose the state of grace by committing just one mortal sin, but God is merciful and will restore us to the state of grace if we sincerely repent and go to Confession.
Once-saved-always-saved is a license to sin and I think deep down everybody recognizes that.
I agree with you on this subject and that was how I was taught on the subject, and it's also what see in the scriptures on the subject. And I see scripture as wise to be warning Christians to be careful to remain in the faith. There's no reason why they can't lose their salvation through being overly confident of their standing with God, as the Pharisees of Jesus' time did! They need to be as a good watchman, Jesus said - living as though always waiting confidently (through always remembering to be watchful and careful) for Jesus' coming!
If this video is true, then what are we supposed to do?
What do you mean? As regards to oneself - or as regards to those who fail to understand this subject correctly? Hebrews 7 - I think it is - explains how obedience is required - repentance is necessary. Exactly what the people of Israel - the majority refused to do. And repaed thei rjust reward as a result.
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298
@@debbystevens7494, peace sister.
I'm asking that if this video is true and a Christian can Spirit filled Christian can forfeit Salvation, then what are we as Christians supposed to do? Where do we find our assurance?
I'm sure you say obedience if necessary, not to negate Salvation by grace through faith alone right?
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 What are we supposed to do? We are supposed to avoid all mortal sin. If we have the misfortune to commit a mortal sin God will forgive us if we have sincere repentance and if we go to Confession.
Thanks. That was a point that is now clear to me.
So what's the solution?
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 The solution to salvation?
@@1ProShooter, sorry, which part is now clear to you?
@@1ProShooter, in this video he explained that a Christian can further forfeit Salvation. So if this is true, what are we as Christians supposed to do?
The solution is not turning from Christ bid you have, turn back
If something like that would happen to a Christian what should they do can they return to the faith can they be restored and be recommitted to Christ can they fully can God change their heart again and give them a new heart or would they be lost forever
This is a question frought with all kinds of semantic difficulties. What exactly IS a Christian? Who meets the standards of being a "genuine" Christian? Which ones are regenerate? What does it even mean to "lose" faith or salvation? In some sense, it either continues, or you never had it.
You can't tell your wife, "You know, honey, I had a never-ending love for you, but then I just quit."
That is a very good point, Hans. The relationship (personal relationship with Jesus, no?) with Jesus is often likened to a marriage, with Jesus being the groom and our souls being the bride. The book of Revelation speaks of the Church as the mystical body of Christ. Some Catholic hymns speak of Jesus, "the bridegroom of my soul". A nun is considered to be a bride of Christ.
In a marriage the partners need to have faith in each other, have hope that the marriage will work, and they must do good works for each other. We should understand that faith without works is dead but we should REALLY understand that love without good works is the phonyest kind of love imaginable. Having faith in each other and that's all that is needed? No.....
If unsaved humans can keep loving someone for their whole life, how much easier is it for one with the Spirit to love God even longer?
If being steadfast in faith is not work, then what is it?
In the Lutheran view if someone falls away can they come back?
It's called repentance. Nothing particularly Lutheran about it. It's just Biblical.
1 Corinthians 15:1 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1 Corinthians 15:3 - For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Corinthians 15:4 - And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Acts 16:30 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be Saved?
Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy House.
Is this the position taken by all Lutheran groups?
in this connection, Scripture can be properly and truly "boiled down" to 3 warnings, and 1 admonition, as follows: 1. there is the warning to the atheist/agnostic, not to be a "fool", via the rejectioin of God's reality; 2, there is the warning to those involved in false, God-rejected religions (); 3. there is the warning, against/to those who are among God's people, and who are yet NOT truly converted; these ones will be revealed as such, either here (1 John 2:19/Heb. 3:12), or hereafter (Matt. 7:19-21)..beyond these warnings 4. , there IS the admonition to God's people, to "make their calling/election sure", via the confirmation/reality of an "indwelling Christ" (Gal. 4:19; 2 Cor. 13:5); 5. is there, yet a group of "warnings" to God's people, that they can be "saved" today, and "lost" tommorrow? That the Son might NOT "live in their house forever"? That the "younger WILL serve the older"? That their "old man" will yet destroy, the "new man"? That "eternal life" has a "shelf-life" dependant upon the whim, of WEAK SINNERS, such as ourselves? That our "adoption" is "subject to cancellation" depending upon our conduct? Thjat Christ's saving work, was not only NOT "finished" (John 19:28-30), but needs to be "completed" by us?? That God's "love" (??), is yet STILL keeping a "record, of (our) wrongs", which is NOT to be "cleared" in this life?Absolutely not! Thus, "loss..." doctrine can never build a solid soterioloigy; their false anthropology/theolgy (i.e. that the Almighty God "bows" to the wills of His inful creatures!), simply cannot bear the weight, of a Biblical doctrine, re salvation.....I thank God, for many things,,,,,two of them, are that I did NOT follow my spiritually dead fathers Lutheran faith; yet, neither did I embrace my mothers' RC religion...how I thank God, for the post-Lutheran Reformers, who were enabled by God, to "tie these loose ends", left by such as Luther/Melancthon!!
Maybe you understood what the author means when they say fallen from grace/faith.
I didn't know that this is a Lutheran teaching. Thank you for this video!
Lutherans stick to the correct exegesis of the bible.
I really enjoy watching Chris Roseborough Fighting for the Faith or Pirate Christian Radio. Apparently he is also Lutheran.
2 thoughts: both being Lutheran teachers, is it safe to assume that y’all hold to the same beliefs?
If 2 of my favorite sights are both Lutheran, maybe I should think of driving past by Baptist Church and pulling in the Lutheran one down the road.
Did you do that?!
Annabelle Rankin Not yet. Hard to break routines
Annabelle Rankin Also, there are extremely liberal branches of the Lutheran Church that support women Priests and homosexual “Christians “. I need to do a more research before walking in the wrong one.
@@joebidensdiaper8526 Absolutely. You can go to Issues Etc for good Lutheran teaching and advice on a local church you can rely on. Mine is in the UK and excellent.
issuesetc.org
www.oslc.org.uk
I'd like to make a slightly different point which is that the conditional Scripture passages you refer to don't imply that one has the capacity to fall away from faith by the free exercise of our will. They're merely observations that one will only be saved if one remains in the faith. Luther made the point that our will isn't free to choose either to believe or disbelieve and that it's like a beast of burden between two riders (God and Satan). If God rides us we go where God wills and if Satan rides us we go where Satan wills, and nor says Luther, can we choose who will ride us because it is the riders themselves who contend with each other as to who will take possession of us. Ultimately of course God is in control and therefore whether we're saved or damned has already been predetermined. So if people fall from the faith and are damned that is due to predestination not due to human free will. So whilst I agree that "once saved always saved" isn't Biblical, I don't agree with the Lutheran teaching that the act of falling away isn't predetermined by God. My conviction is that Luther was correct and the Formula of Concord wrong on this.
+Edward -- I can't fully tell from your post if you're in the Lutheran camp or not (my impression is that you are not but if you are my apology) but you might want to check out this article.
*_"Why Lutheran Predestination Isn't Calvinist Predestination"_* by *Mathew Block* from _First Things_
www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/10/why-lutheran-predestination-isnt-calvinist-predestination
resurrectionjose I've previously read Mathew Block’s article and commented on it in the comments below it. But briefly I don't agree with his argument that Luther didn't endorse predestination to hell. There's nothing in Luther’s commentary on Genesis that actually supports this. It's plain that we can't know whether we're saved (and therefore conclude we're predestined to be saved) except through our faith in Christ since He is the only access to God that we have, but this doesn't rule out predestination to hell which Luther most certainly defends in The Bondage of the Will, and which he supports when he says in his Genesis commentary “I have written that everything is absolute and unavoidable”.
Also there's a misunderstanding in Lutheran circles that Luther was opposed to reason and logic particularly with reference to predestination and that he was in agreement with the Formula of Concord on this. However this is completely mistaken. Luther only opposed reason when it sought to make a value judgement on the truthfulness of Scripture, however he defended to the utmost the use of reason when arguing from Scriptural premises. Therefore we find him making the following summary of his position in The Bondage of the Will which confirms he held predestination to both heaven and hell:
“For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and predestines all things, that he can neither be mistaken in his foreknowledge nor hindered in his predestination, and that nothing takes place but as he wills it (as reason itself is forced to admit), then on the testimony of reason itself there can't be any free choice in man or angel or any creature”. (page 293, Luther's Works, Vol 33)
By the way in my eyes I’m a Lutheran since I agree with Luther and support the teachings of the Book of Concord that were in existence during Luther's lifetime. However since Lutheranism since 1580 has been defined by acceptance of the Formula of Concord’s teaching on predestination, which I hold is in error (and which Luther wouldn't have agreed with), I don't refer to myself as a Lutheran.
+Edward -- Luckily while coming back here and re-reading the entirety of your post after digging around one of my external hard drives (it's normally hooked up to my laptop computer) for the titles of one or two books as well as looking up some stuff online, I noticed that I might have been a bit hasty or simply misread the second paragraph in your previous post. (Further below I'm going ahead and mention what I presumed at first and cite the title and accompanying link to Amazon.) The one thing I should have done but didn't bother to do because it might have been way too time-consuming is looking for a quotation in some book I have on former fundamentalist Christians ("Leaving The Fold..." by Edward Babinski) whereby the author either insinuates that Luther held to "double predestination" or directly quotes him by actually citing from one of his works. What I recall is something about the *_"acme of faith"_* and will probably look it up another time during the upcoming morning or afternoon. I also don't want to be rummaging around one of my bookshelves in another part of the house and near a family member who is sound asleep. :)
All that being said, I think you're most probably right about Luther holding to *and* perhaps early on teaching "double predestination" while Lutheranism in general and many Lutherans in particular say otherwise. That article by Mathew Block is a case in point. I never bothered to read the comments section of his article which ironically enough is something I normally do since comments/posts by readers tend to be more interesting and enlightening than the article(s) themselves. I spotted your comment but won't be elaborating on it here. I will end with the following and touch upon what you said in the second paragraph.
*_"Also there's a misunderstanding in Lutheran circles that Luther was opposed to reason and logic..."_* Even though I didn't go any further and cite the rest of what you said, on the whole you are correct. I had to also look around one of my other folders (simply entitled "Lutheranism") where I have 80+ eBooks and journal articles specifically on Martin Luther and Lutheranism. I'll assume you're familiar with the following book that I cited further below. I also took the liberty of citing the Baptist minister and theologian, Roger E. Olson, who had written a blog article showcasing that Luther did indeed hold to "double predestination."
Lastly, even if Luther never uttered the same type of statements he did in earlier years I believe the usual criticisms against Calvinism (re: TULIP) or even a modified form of it (e.g., emphasis on 'T' and 'P' while giving short shrift to 'U', 'L', and 'I') can just as well be leveled at him. "Double predestination" no matter how it's sliced boils down to one group being chosen for eternal life (i.e., the Elect) and another group predestined to eternal perdition (i.e., the non-Elect). Mr. Olson in a few of his books on Arminianism (that includes one or two arguing *against* Calvinism) in my view does a splendid job of showing up a number of faulty lines of theological reasoning within Calvinist thought. About the one area that I think he *might* be waffling on is Romans 9 when he more or less quotes John Wesley: *_"It cannot mean, whatever it meant besides, that the God of truth is a liar....Let it mean what it will. It cannot mean that the Judge of all the world is unjust."_* Sounds great at first glance and I reckon eases one's troubled conscience as well as a good deal of cognitive dissonance regarding some "horrible decree" and God's love, but it seems to avoid the text itself and the necessary exegetical work needed in order to determine what that part of Romans (or more to the point chapters 9-11) means and not what we wish it to mean for the sake of squaring things away with some cherished or deeply held doctrine.
(I'm trying to find a dissertation online that I have on hand that has since been published in a prestigious monograph series, 'Library of New Testament Studies', and will presume it's either not freely available anymore or I just haven't looked well enough. For the heck of it I will cite the title way at the end and attempt to find it another time. It part one of a trilogy on the entirety of Romans 9, and from an Arminian persuasion.)
*_"The Devil's Whore. Reason and Philosophy in the Lutheran Tradition"_* (2011) edited by *Jennifer H. Dragseth*
www.amazon.com/Devils-Whore-Philosophy-Lutheran-Tradition/dp/0800698509/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1517473976&sr=8-2&keywords=%27%27The+Devil%27s+Whore.+Reason+and+Philosophy+in+the+Lutheran+Tradition%27%27
*_"Luther and 'Double Predestination'"_* by *Roger E. Olson*
www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/04/luther-and-double-predestination/
*_"Arminian Principles for Interpreting Romans 9."_*
wesleyanarminian.wordpress.com/category/romans-9/
Brian J. Abasciano *_"Paul’s Use of the Old Testament in Romans 9.1-9. An Intertextual & Theological Exegesis"_* [LNTS] (2004)
resurrectionjose I clicked on your link to the article "Arminian Principles for Interpreting Romans 9" but I don't agree with the argument presented. Romans 9 is about individual predestination. One has to indulge in contorted arguments to arrive at the conclusion that Paul isn't discussing divine predestination to heaven and hell.
Luther in "The Bondage of the Will", before presenting Scriptural proof for predestination, argues from the premise that God is omnipotent and omniscient and that God's foreknowledge can't be invalidated, that everything is predestined by God to happen. He argues that God's foreknowledge imposes necessity on everything happening exactly as He has foreknown it will, which means there's no human free will to do anything different. Luther's main emphasis was of course to refute free will in reply to Erasmus but in doing so he argued, totally convincingly, that everything is predestined by God to happen which he then proved from Scripture, in particular Romans 9.
In addressing the point that God can't do anything which would seem to us to be unloving and unjust Luther makes the argument that we shouldn't judge God as if He was human as God's justice is above our understanding, and we'll only understand it in the next life when we see that He's perfectly just. (pages 289-293, Luther's Works, Vol 33).
You forgot to mention the distinction between elect believers and non elect believers. Can the elect lose their salvation?
@Sterling Crowne Are you speaking for Lutherans? If so I have some follow up queations.
@Sterling Crowne ok nevermind then
I'm a Lutheran and I'll attempt to answer your question. Key word being "attempt" lol. Anyways, Lutherans do hold to the belief of there being a certain group of people who are the elect, and these elect cannot fall finally away from the faith and end up in hell. While at the same time we hold to the idea that people can be true Christians and fall away from the faith as stated in this video. This is definitely confusing and paradoxical, but we believe these things because we think Scripture teaches them. God has chosen not to tie up the loose ends, so to speak. Every Christian comes to a point in which they ask the question "Why are some saved and not others?" Calvinists, Arminians, and Lutherans all have different answers to this. Calvinists say people are saved or damned by God's sovereign choice/work. Arminians traditionally say people are saved or damned by man's choice/work. Lutherans will say that people are saved by God's work alone, or are damned by man's choice alone. In other words, anyone who ends up in heaven can only say that it is by the grace of God alone that they were saved, and anyone who ends up in hell has no one to blame but him or herself for rejecting God's gracious gift of eternal life.
Check out this episode of Pastor Cooper's podcast, which I think will answer a lot of your questions on the doctrine of election: justandsinner.libsyn.com/two-kinds-of-election
Also, for an official explanation from the Lutheran Confessions, please refer to this link which is a reading from the Formula of Concord regarding election: www.bookofconcord.org/sd-election.php
Sterling Crowne Actually the entire counsel of scripture teaches it. Just as the verses that speak of election are true, the other verses that speak of falling away from the faith are also true. Warnings against falling away are, as far as my memory serves me, in EVERY New Testament book. No matter who each book is addressed to. It is simply the plainest understanding of the verses to understand them to be a warning to keep the faith.
I would also like to stress that Lutheran preaching does not delve into the question of “Am I really elect?” Since we believe as scripture teaches that Christ died for all human beings, and that God desires all to be saved, we teach that if someone is a believing Christian who is continuing in the faith, they have absolutely no reason to believe they are not elect. It is important to understand that Lutherans hold to the scriptural teaching of single predestination. This means God elects people to salvation, but does not actually elect people to eternal damnation. Therefore, election is meant to solely be a doctrine of comfort. If someone is a repentant believer in Jesus Christ, they can surely believe that he died for them.
But if faith is a gift from God, and faith is required did God take my faith away?
What if a person living in unrepentant sin, maintains their faith, because they don't believe what their doing is a sin?
That would be calling God a liar and not maintaining faith/trust in God, His Word and Work.
We call it a seared conscience, the remedy is the hammer of God, and private honest confession and Absolution.
what is the name of your podcasts I wood like to listen to it
I was so called saved at four baprised under water at twelve and then fell into serious sin for over 20 years.. Then three years ago i came to true faith and repentance when i started to study scripture and saw my life was nothing like a christ follower.. Since then coming to true repentance i have a new heart and dramatic change.. So at what point was i saved because for the twenty years i lived in continuous unrepentant sin....
It sounds like you got saved AFTER those 20 years when you had true repentance. Not before. When you get saved, God changes your life, and gives you that new heart. That is salvation. The Bible says, "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things are passed away. All things become new. Going through the motions of saying a prayer is not salvation when there was no true repentance. I walked an aisle when I was 9 went through the motions and grew up all those years, thinking I was saved. I thought of it like getting vaccinated. God showed me, through the years, that I did not get saved at 9, then I TRULY got saved at 23. I didn't understand what salvation was at 9. But, God showed me what true salvation was , at 23. It happens to a lot of people.
They are talking about animal sacrifice they was trying to go back to animal sacrifice and Paul was telling in Jesus Christ his only sacrifice will save you
??????
What ? What ? What ?
Don't you know that Hebrews is written to all Christians?
Read Chapter 1:1, 2
Read Chapter 2:3, 4
Read Chapter 12:22-25
GOD has spoken to US by His SON in fulfillment of
Deuteronomy 18:15-19 / Acts 2:33
If you read John's Gospel
(eg 14:23, 24) you will find the Lord reiterating this theme and it's found in Luke also (Luke 10:16)
But as to "walking away from grace",
That is made abundantly clear in Hebrews 3:12.
Indeed Hebrews 3:14 uses the perfect tense to say we are become (Riight now)
PARTAKERS OF CHRIST,
And yet the inspired author uses the conditional clause in tandem with his statement:
"IF hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end"
This is no different to the warning the Lord gave us:
"He that endures to the end shall be saved"
Very good Dr. Cooper. Once saved always save theology drives me crazy. It just makes no sense.
“On the other hand, they recall the unchangeable, divine promise that no one of them can be Lost, as St. Paul says “the lord knows those who are His” and those whom He foreknown He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son” Saint Augustine- The city of God book XVIII chapter 51
In the parable of the seed and sower, the seed which fell on stony ground was about false conversion. Peter says genuine faith doesn’t perish:
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of ((your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth)), though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
We don’t need to go any further we don’t need to speak we don’t need to do anything at all all we know is your faith is not our faith make sure you have the correct faith
As a child was taught that Hebrews 'falling aside' was failure to inherit all that has been allocated. Rich young ruler had the same problem. Moses failed to enter the physical promised land but was nevertheless redeemed.
How does a Christian know they're regenerated? And doesn't scripture say that if one practices sin they are not of Christ?
This might interest you: czcams.com/video/msSA0tZy5Uo/video.html
Protestants (not counting Lutherans and Anglicans) think we are regenerated when we have an emotiinal experience at a revival meeting.(Hallelujah, brethren, I'm saved!) Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglicans believe that this happens at the time of Baptism.
Which is correct? That emotional experience can be very powerful. But emotions change. Quite often Protestants are told that after their salvation experience that they won't even WANT to sin any more, and when subsequent temptations and sins occur they are confused----hey, I'm not supposed to even want to sin anymore but here am I sinning, am I really saved?
But if our faith is in our Baptism (and faith in Baptism is faith in Christ because Christ instituted Baptism) then that never changes. Yes, we can fall back into sin after our Baptism but we can always repent and confess, if we are truly sorry and have the intention of sinning no more.
Emotions can be good (or bad). But emotions are not salvation.
At the end you demolish everything you have said. You say that one can fall away after being saved but then you say is that God gives perseverance and then again if we obey by faith. Or is one or the other, if God gives perseverance we will have faith if not we will not have faith. If is ultimately upon faith then you should be worry,because no one has naturally saving faith.
as a Reformed, who holds to "Perseverance", I am ther first to acknowledge that there are MANY texts, which APPEAR to teach "loss"....but I can say, with complete confidence, that to go "loss" on this question causes one to give an iron-clad certainty to passages that have NO such condition (i.e. the [supposed] "loss" passages); and to conversely "gut" those many passages that affirm the opposite; in other words, the "loss" passages can be much more easily be integrated into the doctrine of "Perseverance...", where full value can given to them, re Christian instruction; contrariwise, is the reverse; "loss" doctrine makes an absolute MESS of one's doctrine; it has NO mechanism, to extract any real value to the many crystal-clear passages that affirm/confirm the permanence of salvation; it shatters the whole thing, an leaves Christianity, as "just another religion" which teaches you, to "keep yourself saved", via your "good works"; thus, Wesley and all who follow in his train-wreck, basically deny the "Solas" of the Reformation....how I THANK GOD, that He is NOT as you "loss..." peddlars portray Him!! It is simply NOT possible, to reconcile Luther, in his truthful and lucid moments, with the "loss..." doctrine; thus you Lutherans are content to just "live with the tension", and (sadly!) affirm the "loss..." error....
Just curious, do Lutherans believe the Lord Jesus Christ is a liar? The reason I ask is that Jesus said in the well-known passage in John 10:28-29, "And I give them (My sheep) eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand." If someone can walk away (snatch themselves away) from salvation (from being one of the Lord's sheep), then...."eternal life" doesn't actually mean "eternal life" and "never perish" dosen't actually mean "never perish." Therefore, Jesus would clearly be a liar. BTW, "never perish" is in a Greek construction that means "perishing" is not even in the realm of potentiality. IOW, Jesus says that it's not even potentially possible that one of His sheep can EVER perish. Earthly example - it's not even potentially possible for a hummingbird to swoop down and carry off a elephant. The same potentiality goes for anyone who is one of the Lord's sheep - it's not possible, end of discussion, for them to perish and miss out on eternal life....unless Jesus lied. Just my two cents.....
I do think for sure that there is such a thing as false conversion in the case of the tares among the wheat, not to mention the fact that I lived in sin before I was converted truly, and after gaining a right understanding of the gospel I now know the truth and it has made me free.
Can wheat become tares ?
@@tomtemple69 God knows... the content of scripture seems to say yes even by the framework of the parables. Until the stalks all ripen, who knows how the heads will flower?
Also I am Orthodox now, I used to be lcms.
@@ThumbKnuckle youre Orthodox and you say you NOW know that truth? 🤔🤨
@@ThumbKnuckle that's not what I asked
can tares turn into wheat and vice versa? once a tare or wheat is planted, can they transform into the other?
@@tomtemple69 it's an analogy, not something that means exactly what it says, it's a hedge around the truth, not an assertion of what is precisely the case, in other parables the people can transform into the other kind, so it needs to be viewed through the lens of what has always been believed...
From what i gather you hold to the arminian doctrine of salvation ,so you say it's not works that cause you to loose faith but if you do not persevere in the faith you will lose it .So you attest to the "Free will" doctrine ,so would you say one makes a conscious decision to accept Christ and you can also make a conscience decision to reject him .Is that what you are saying ??? Please clarify ,i have struggled with this topic for many years !!!
I respectfully disagree with your teaching and please expound these verses for me please;
John10:28-29; 1John5:13; Romans5:1 ; Romans 8:30 and many more verses that contradicts your teaching.
If salvation is probationary, then how can it be salvation? Being born again is about being born into God’s family. Does God abandon his children?
No, we abandon him however. Calvin's theology came from augustine, who invented predestination as a desperate response to pelagius in their letter correspondence. Augustin spent 9 years with the manichaens, its no wonder he had such repugnant doctrine.
Braden Glass sorry, God invented predestination. Have you read his book?
@@godslittleman5451 I have. You should spend more time on it instead of the institutes on religion.
Braden Glass if you had, you would have come across the word, “predestined many times.” It’s not goin anywhere just cause you don’t like it.
@@godslittleman5451 predestination is certainly there, its just not what reformed say it is. See cooper's video debunking the limited atonement btw
I confess this whole debate mystifies me. Isn't it a question of loyalty? I can't possibly be good enough to earn God's love. I've earned destruction in concrete ways and nothing I can do will change that. I accept this as fact. Where does that leave me? I have to trust Him when He says I'm forgiven even as I can't understand why. And now I'm going to betray him again? If so He won't have to condemn me when I stand before Him. I'll do it myself.
Salvation is believing on Jesus for salvation. It's God's gift and He, through the Holy Spirit does the good works; our works don't matter.
If we truly believe, then we will obey Jesus.
"Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
Our works demonstrate the reality of our faith. They do matter. Without getting into the weeds, good works are what we are saved {for} (that's supposed to communicate italics).@@Anony584
Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, Jhon 6:39 And Ephesians 1:13 seems to say, Gods plan is to seal us in his promises and give us assurance. I believe apostasy is a wilful abandonment of our lord Jesus Christ. In which he is always looking foward for us to come back and be healed.
"Produce fruit in keeping with repentance."
It has to do with the holy Spirit initiating conviction and us not grieving the holy Spirit..... And this way it is the indwelling of the holy Spirit that draws us. But free will determines if we will listen to the conviction or if we will continuously walk in sin and rebellion.
God is omniscient and he knows who will come to him and run the race to the end from the foundation of the world.
Another subject, that I will say I simply disagree with your opinion.
If you don't wish to go with "apparent" faith, what qualifications ARE you willing to impose? In the Parable of the Sower, which you cite, ALL of the seed falling on tilled ground produces a crop. It is only on the periphery of the field--on the path, on the edge, in a weed-infested corner--where there is a possibility of fecundity failure. What then is different about the plants with weak, shallow, or temporary growth? Is their faith not QUALITATIVELY distinct? If indeed they ARE regenerate, isn't it in some lesser sense? They don't enjoy the same environment, the same protections, the same spiritual nourishment as the elect. They receive the regenerative gifts of the Spirit without receiving the providential gifts needed to maintain that spark of life. Sounds to me like their faith is at the very least deficient if not downright invalid.
Remember, living faith is more than mere intellectual assent; it is a rooted and grounded trust in the Sower; a mystical union with Christ that issues forth in good works (crops, in this case).
Any way you cut the mustard the parable of the seeds and the sower clearly shows that salvation can be lost
Man cannot take salvation away from us. God will not take salvation away from us. No power on earth or Heaven will take away our salvation. And it certainly is a free gift. But like all gifts we ourselves can throw it away. All it takes is one mortal sin.
Salvation (better described as the state of grace) can be regained if we have sincere repentance and make a good Confession.
Can you repent?
I am a sinner, will always be a sinner. My salvation was assured before I was born, thank-you Father Amen.
Yeah, lucky you. What about someone that was not 'chosen' by God?
Calvinism, the religion of narcissists.
We are all chosen, we all will have eternal life. Matthew 18#12-14. Praise God Almighty, Amen.
@@herberttaylor466 This is bizarre. Are you saying all humans are saved? or all the Christians are chosen and have eternal life?
@@Brian_L_A All Humans without Exception, its so simple its hard to believe. Faith is what is needed in God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit. AMEN
@@herberttaylor466 Give my regards to Mao Zedong, responsible for about 45 million deaths. I am sure he was praising Jesus as untold millions were tortured to death under Mao's command.
Like so many questions about doctrine, there is no definitive answer. Some verses support one view while others support another.
>There aren't any cliffs in kansas
>Highway 83 between lake scott and monument rocks national park: Am I a joke to you?