What Lutherans Believe about Salvation
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- čas přidán 1. 02. 2018
- My website: www.jordanbcooper.com
Patreon: / justandsinner
What do Lutherans believe about salvation? That question is answered here. Like and subscribe for other videos like this.
Check out this other video which addresses a question regarding the necessity of Baptism for salvation: • Is Baptism Necessary f...
There are a lot of questions in the comments about the necessity of Baptism for salvation. For an answer to that question, check out this short video: czcams.com/video/yIUgdn-iQbQ/video.html
John 3, Jesus says you must be born again of the water and spirit, water baptism fully emerged. In Acts 2:38 baptized in the name of JESUS CHRIST. When we are baptized, it is a symbol of the death and resurrection. Confess with your mouth that you are a sinner and you are sorry and ask for forgiveness for all your sins, believe in your heart that God the Holy Spirit descended from heaven entered into Mary's womb, born of a virgin, God (Jesus) performed miracles, believe Jesus is who He says He is,. Jesus said: I AM, if you have seen Me, you have Seen the Father, repent (turn from your ways) and thou shalt be saved. read your bible, study ask God to give you His wisdom, knowledge and discernment of His word.
@@susandomangue9816 he does.... that's why he's Lutheran.
Dr Jordon B Cooper, I am a LCMS member and have been for decades. I converted on my own from my family who are non denominational Calvary chapel folks, but I have had some issues with our church because our local pastor won’t talk to me and neither will the lcms headquarters folks. Questions, it seems, are frowned upon. You seem to be an excellent pastor that does nothing but answer our questions. Please pastor, I have been considering the Orthodoxy at this point, but I want to remain a Lutheran. Do you have an email where I might ask you what troubles me?
@@chriskakuk3568 JustandSinner@yahoo.com
@@susandomangue9816UPC Baptism is not valid because you don't use the trinity and don't understand baptism or the Bible for that matter.
This video right here made me dive DEEP into Lutheranism. Ultimately I was baptized into my local Lutheran congregation.
Take some time to have further reflection regarding Martin Luther - how well do you know him?
EXPOSED: the Myth of Martin Luther
m.czcams.com/video/PotwMky1ScA/video.html
Martin Luther was probably POSSESSED
m.czcams.com/video/ebAeK20S9bE/video.html
The Church has the divine guarantee to teach Christ's truth concerning the Written and Oral Tradition, both of which come from the Church. "The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1Tim 3;15) and not the private interetations of an individual/group. Both the Protestant sects and the Orthodox churches put their own rendering of Apostolic Tradition above the final authority of the Catholic Church.
As long as it was done correctly, you were baptized. Not into any church. As long as you weren't baptized by mormons or any other group that does it wrong.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
With respect, brother, I have to disagree with you here. I was not baptised, was not raised in the faith, but had a 100% come to jesus 180 turn around at age 22 when Jesus removed the scales from my eyes and the ice from my heart. I wasnt baptised for 2 years after that bec I moved around a bunch and didnt get settled at a church for a while, but I KNOW that I was saved that entire time. When you go from absolute unbelief to absolute, assured belief, there is just an experience that you cant deny and theres no explanation for it other than salvation. I believe my baptism was important for sure, and I believe people who say they are Christians but feel no need to be baptized need to examine their heart, but I would say based on Gods word and my own personal life-altering experience that salvation comes by faith alone, and that baptism was something I did to declare, affirm, and strengthen my faith. Love your videos! God bless you! ❤❤
Amen! This man doesnt know the truth. Might as well be Catholicism.
Salvation is gained by faith apart from works (Rom 3-4) but kept by works (Rom2).
@@weobeyjesus4565
Baptism is a "work?" Is confession of Christ also a "work" on par with the legal works the Judaizers said would make a person righteous before God? What about continuing in the teachings of Christ? Is that also a "work?"
Amen Brother. Jesus said "You must be Born Again"!!!!! Jimi, Baptism is a work, it absolutely is. It is a religious act that you do. Faith and repentance are not a work, the Bible is clear about this. Ephesians 2:8-9 explicitly states this very clearly. John the baptist proclaimed exactly what water baptism was... He said he baptized with water for repentance and the one who comes after him would baptize with the Holy Spirit. Lutheran doctrine comes from presuppositions based on Greek Philosophy and a misunderstanding of the word baptize. Baptiste literally means to be covered or surrounded. In Acts, when Peter said to repent and be baptized, he was talking about baptism of the Holy Spirit. How do we know? Just read 1 Peter 3:21 - He tells us what the Baptize that saves is. He says it's not water baptism, it is a good conscience towards God. Previous to that he gives the example about Noah being saved by the water, but that is not saying water baptism saves, Peter corrects that thought process in the very next verse. He is giving an example of how Noah was a type to give us an illustration of salvation. Peter is explaining the purpose of Noah.
@@JoshuaAndreasen
Watchman Nee wrote a book called Spiritual Reality or obsession. His central thesis was that certain Church practices such as Baptism and the Lord's Supper were not MERELY symbolic memorials nor were they physical actualities (as in the literal sacramentalism of transubstantiation). Rather the doing of them constituted a SPIRITUAL REALITY. My wife and I both experienced that with baptism. Though I was converted I did not want to be baptized. When I actually in the water before the congregation I felt the Spirit moving and the old way of life falling away. I had experienced the death that Baptism was meant to enact. Likewise, after my wife was saved she expressed the need to be Baptized. The Church we were members of had no Baptistry so they bought a horse pond. Since we met in a storefront they baptized her in front of a row of mirror windows. When I took a picture I saw that she was facing outward while the reflection of her was facing the opposite direction as if the old reflection self were walking away from her new self. The spiritual reality occurred simultaneously with the physic symbol.
Regarding repentance and faith. I agree that repentance is not a work (like penance). It is rather the effect of the Spirit having convicted us and our having agreed with Him.
Thank you. I appreciated this - the “Objective” part of the talk very enlightening to me.
I’m Lutheran and Christian at the same time. I agree with most of the teachings Luther taught. The objective story of the scriptures I love and that was how I was taught to know God. Through the salvation history of the scriptures. I was guided through them from Luther’s understanding of the scriptures but not through being taught doctrine, while at the same time indirectly learning the doctrine through turning the pages of scriptures history and watching what God has done for me. This for me has been most beneficial. I am thankful for God’s work done in and through Martin Luther my friend in Christ. Thank you my dear brother in Christ for teaching God’s truth.
Lutherans are Christians
Awesome video. As a former Baptist seminarian now attending Lutheran, I love this video as it hits on all the fine points. As Heiser puts it, faith is not an incantation as if to magically say the right words to control God, rather it is trusting loyalty. Incantational conversion theology turns faith into a human activity instead of a belief. The older I get the more I appreciate John 3:16. Just believe.
Are confession of sins and repentance necessary for salvation also?
Amen
Valid point, but the conversion of Martin Luther, myself or anyone is a personal choice to repent and believe. Belief is not a static thing (James- N.T.). WE can trust our conversion experience, yes, like someone would trust in infant baptism-but we have to make it effectual in the immanent presence and grace to help us live it out in a semi-miraculous way. That's not your "easy believe -ism " but dynamic, and real which is what God wants and I can speak for Him here as I've certainly failed in other approaches trying and have taken the risks in following that most would nor willingly undertake as simply impractical and unneccesary to lay hold on eternal life. It seems to me the meaning and intent of the 1 peter quote has been by translation liberty twisted some to fit existing theology??
Lutherans do profess belief in God, renounce the devil and multiple other things before they are baptized so if you don’t need those words why are they said.
Infants have someone else actually answer for them.
This was a wonderful and yet simply reminder. Thank you so much!
IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO REVIEW THIS VIDEO.
This is very enlightening information. You have answered so many of my questions.
Because I was an apostate who ended up at a Lutheran Church, i am grateful for this view. However, i choose to live my life like I lost it to be safe. Because He did so much for me.
Thanks for these Lutheran videos. They’re helpful for people like me who know of Martin Luther but don’t know that much about Lutheranism.
Great video. Thank you.
As a Lutheran I say I was given the gift of salvation at baptism and I accepted that gift during catechism and professed it at confirmation. So thank you for this video, you out it so well.
Yet none of this is bible based, but just a remainder of twisted catholic teachings.
Take some time to have further reflection regarding Martin Luther - how well do you know him?
EXPOSED: the Myth of Martin Luther
m.czcams.com/video/PotwMky1ScA/video.html
Martin Luther was probably POSSESSED
m.czcams.com/video/ebAeK20S9bE/video.html
so are you referring to Baptism when you were an infant? or baptism as an adult after you made the decision to follow Christ and ask him into your heart and life? my brother apparently is Lutheran
At confirmation I confessed my faith (Romans 10:9)on the work of God unconditional grace in my Baptism.
@@SamSups I attended a Lutheran school ( 6th thru 8th grade ) and cannot remember any of the teachers ever opening a Bible even one time that whole entire 3 years. very starnge, the curriculum of that school is supposed to be based upon the word of God the Bible?? when I went to my confirmation ceremony at the church, all it proved was that I successfully recited one specific passage from scripture that I had memorized. they never taight us anything about the "true" divine nature of God. that he hates sin
Thank you for Law & Gospel!
Very well said!
Once again, great video! Very clear and concise. I would love to get my hands on a thoroughly Biblical work on this very topic, maybe something with proof texts. I like the Scripture on screen too like the baptism video. Keep up the good work! Several of these videos of late have been very timely as well. Thanks for being used of the Lord. Blessings!
Andrew Hurt I wrote a book called Baptized Into Christ which deals with these issues.
Dr. J that was very good. Thank you for your time! I'd like to use this and break down some terms for the less initiated like subjective etc. Do you have any notes I can purchase?
If a Lutheran, catholic and a Baptist were at a homeless shelter feeding the poor and someone asked the Baptist “what must I do to be saved?”, would you be offended if they said, “believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and ask forgiveness for your sins”?
No, of course not.
Appreciate this video. Would love to be pointed to some sources for this idea of objective/personal salvation as I am writing a research paper on "What is salvation".
With respect to the Lutheran belief that the means of grace (baptism and the Word) always impart grace, by which is meant that the Holy Spirit is always ready and willing to give everyone the faith to trust in Christ for their salvation, but that the Holy Spirit can be resisted, I have to say that this wasn't Luther's position.
In Luther's Large Catechism he writes of infant baptism: “We bring the child in the conviction and hope that it believes, and we pray that God may grant it faith” which shows that Luther held that it was a decision made by God whether a child in baptism was given the Holy Spirit to believe. This is also obviously the meaning when he wrote a few paragraphs before: “That the Baptism of infants is pleasing to Christ is sufficiently proved from His own work, namely, that God sanctifies many of them who have been thus baptised, and has given them the Holy Ghost”. Here again there's no talk of infants not resisting the Holy Spirit to account for why they have the Holy Spirit, but rather the onus is on God who decides to give them the Holy Spirit in contrast to others whom he doesn't give the Holy Spirit to.
Similarly with respect to the Word Luther wrote in The Bondage of the Will: “But the ungodly does not come even when he hears the Word, unless the Father draws and teaches him inwardly, which He does by pouring out the Spirit. There is then another "drawing" than the one that takes place outwardly; for then Christ is set forth by the light of the Spirit, so that a man is rapt away to Christ with the sweetest rapture, and rather yields passively, to God's speaking, teaching, and drawing than seeks and runs himself.” (page 286, Vol 33, Luther's Works). This again shows that Luther held that the Holy Spirit isn't tied to the Word so that all who hear it are capable of being converted as long as they don't resist, as Lutherans believe. Rather the Holy Spirit is only given to those whom God wills to regenerate, and that if He has decided to regenerate them then it happens irresistibly.
I believe that Luther's position is the true Scriptural one and the Lutheran one is unscriptural.
Also Luther's position is the teaching of the Augsburg Confession, Article V:
“To obtain such faith God instituted the office of the ministry, that is, provided the Gospel and the sacraments. Through these, as through means, he gives the Holy Spirit, who works faith, when and where he pleases, in those who hear the Gospel.” (Tappert)
If the Augsburg Confession’s teaching agreed with the Lutheran Formula of Concord's teaching the Augsburg Confession wouldn't say that God “works faith when and where he pleases” but rather God works faith in those who don't resist him, and that he would be pleased to be able to work faith in everyone.
So I think many Lutherans are probably deceived into thinking they have true saving faith because they have been baptised when in reality they’ve never been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and only imagine that they have true faith. If they live their lives no different to unbelievers and indulge in sinful behaviour then their baptism isn't going to save them no matter how much they think it is.
Which is why we repent and ask for forgiveness. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sin, God who is faithful and just, will forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness…
@@juliethompson1370 I'm in agreement with most of the teaching contained in the Book of Concord, but I disagree with the teaching of universal grace and single predestination in the Formula of Concord. Luther likewise didn't agree with it, as can be proved from The Bondage of the Will. Confessional Lutherans are simply wrong in believing in the universal operation of the Holy Spirit in the means of grace. Scripture doesn't teach this. It's merely a conclusion which confessional Lutherans have reached through human reason.
Christ explained in John 6 the reason why people don't believe in him, and his explanation shows that the confessional Lutheran belief that a person's unbelief is due to his resistance to the regeneration of the Holy Spirit in the Word is wrong. Christ's explanation for why people don't believe in him is because the Father doesn't draw them to him through the Holy Spirit. Christ says:
"But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:64-65 ESV). Christ is referring to what he said previously that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." (John 6:44)
So as you can see the belief that confessional Lutherans hold that the Father draws everyone through the Word to Christ, and it is a person's own fault if he doesn't believe, as he's resisted the Holy Spirit, is wrong. Christ teaches the opposite.
If you're interested in what Luther had to teach in The Bondage of the Will concerning double predestination which is what he held, (not single predestination to heaven as confessional Lutherans hold) then please see my comments below the video: Catholics and Lutherans in Dialogue with Pastor Bryan Wolfmueller.
You have no idea (you actually probably do because you go through the same thing as me being a Lutheran) how much I appreciate these videos. I get into a few arguments with friends and they don't get where I am coming from when I point back to baptism for salvation.. Even though that's clearly stated in the bible. Can you do a video on why Christ was baptized. If there is one thing that stumps me it's that part when it comes to these arguments. Thank you, and may God keep you in the faith.
Thanks! The encouragement is appreciated. That is a good video topic. I'll consider that for a future video.
Baptism DOESN'T save you!
@@loridennis2989
1 Peter 3:21 disagrees with that statement
That still doesn't address the clear words of 1 Peter 3:21. Baptism is God's work on the sinner, for the faith that trusts in Christ. God is the active party in Baptism. We are the passive recipient. Hope that helps
True. That is why we value Baptism so highly. The Holy Spirit works repentance and faith through the gift of Baptism. True repentance comes from God. Then we need not fear the false conversion. God is always faithful to His promises. Baptism is pure grace, and we can rest in the work and promise of God.
Hi, Jordan
Will you please supply scriptures for your stance on baptism being the way we receive the gift personally? I think of Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God." I also think of the thief on the cross. He is clearly in heaven now without doing any sacraments or being baptized.
We receive salvation by believing in Christ and accepting the gift in our heart, not by an outside source or through some act of obedience. However, Baptism is the first act of obedience. I could have misunderstood you and I apologize if I did. I just want some clarity. Thanks!
Instead of the Lutheran view of salvation, it should be what is the New Testament view of salvation through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ?!
Thanks. You used the enough. That has deep meaning to me. I was in another religion and they treated their flock that they weren’t doing enough. They’d use that word a lot. Here we are. Jesus did enough.
+Jordan Cooper -- I should wait until I finish viewing the whole thing, but I'll go ahead and give two thumbs up! :)
+Jordan Cooper -- I already viewed it twice (it might have been three times while getting caught up on something else) and two or three questions were already going through my mind. I'll give myself until tomorrow to articulate them better to myself, and also prepare for other questions that might spring up during the interval.
Pastor Cooper, I had a powerful conversion experience that has never left me 50 yrs. later. Conversion, or being born again is by the Holy Spirit. When I first got saved I went to a church that was Hyper Dispensational and did not believe in water baptism. 25 yrs. later while I was baptizing new converts, I asked another man who also was baptizing to baptize me. In my born again experience, from the time I believed to today, I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt my sins were forgiven and I belonged to Christ. I always had certainty of my salvation before I was ever baptized. The Lord wants us to be baptized unless we end up as the thief on the cross, who had no time to be baptized but went with the Lord to paradise.
The Lord bless you, thank you for your many teachings, His servant, Peter.
Hey Jordan, blessings brother!
I’m a Reformed Baptist though many of my fellows see me as too liturgical amongst other things. Doubtless, I have several disagreements which I’m not interested in emphasizing to be honest. I enjoyed your presentation. I learned from it. I was not baptized as a child. I grew up in a non-religious household to say the least. Honestly, I was a drug addict and criminal for years prior to taking an interest in the Christian faith. Nevertheless, I agree that many evangelicals empathize conversion experience and subjectivity way too much! I see it plague many of my brothers and sisters. I didn’t have a problem with your statements about being ‘saved’ at your baptism or objectively when Christ died. Those statements have a biblical precedent. I’d like to hear more on the Lutheran view of atonement and on it’s extent. Well, grace and mercy be multiplied unto you!
Thanks for this video. Perhaps youve addressed this elsewhere, but the Roman Catholic church seems to say that Christ's saving work on the cross only paid for the general fallenness of humanity as a whole, and that in order to be saved completely we must not only confess regularly to a priest who can absolve us, but also do penance. Penance is thought of as a way of making reparations to God. I saw a lecture by the late Bishop Sheen who said the church is a repository of reparations from people holier than most of us (saints who suffered), and when the laity do their penance it's in effect strengthened by this. It's rather like having a sick leave pool at work for people who need extended sick leave to draw on. This, combined with the doctrine of purgatory, seems to me a great stretch from what is actually in scripture. It also means Christ did not die, "once and for all". How would you counter this point of view?
esgravois,
Read Jonah 3 and Matt. 12:41 where repentance and penance takes central stage apart from the fact that Jesus is greater than Jonah.
Further, in reading Phillipians 2:12 clearly indicates you can't possibly rest on your laurels after accepting Christ and being baptised.
Even the great Apostle Paul, the apostle of grace and faith said in 1 Corinthians 4:3-4 that in the end, even after proclaiming Romans 6:10, 'it is God who judges me', even though his very conscience is clear.
Such then should be our attitudes toward God and his salvation for a humble and contrite heart, He would not dispise. Psalm 51:17
Shalom.
So would baptism precede personal faith?
I have been to Church for 10 years I have learned of the Holy Spirit. If a person was save thru faith, baptism, and thru good works in order to received salvation. Do they believe in the Holy Spirit as well as a Lutheran?
hello- i am wondering if lutherans believe there can be salvation outside of the lutheran church? For example, can a baptist, methodist, presbyterian, etc be saved?
Their churches place stumbling stones in the way of their adherents. "Baptism doesn't save." "Communion is only a remembrance. Whaddabou' da thief on da cwoss!" "God hand-picked the non-elect for hell." But God is greater than stumbling stones, and more ready to forgive than we are to repent.
@@Mygoalwogel not sure how that answers my question. Also, your comment is kind of disrespectful and dividing, and offensive. I'm seeking unity, not division. My question was simply, do lutherans believe christians who have accepted Christ as their savior and fallen on the grace of Him, are saved, outside of lutheran walls.
if you're going to be disrespectful, i'm not interested in what you have to say.
@@sophianikolai8381 Sorry, then. Your question typically gets asked by exclusivists such as Orthodox and Catholics. I hoped to indicate that we don't assume that individuals outside our communion are saved as a matter of course, nor do we say it's impossible for them to be saved. We naturally assume that salvation is safest in the Lutheran confessional church simply because we believe we have no identifiable false doctrines in our public Confessions.
Yes, we believe there is faith outside of the Lutheran church. Though we, as other denominations also do, hold our teachings to be the MOST biblical.
I always believed that you hear the Gospel, you believe, you repent, you get baptized and go make disciples. I’ve never heard be baptized to get faith. Repentance is essential. What about the thief on the cross?? He certainly wasn’t baptized, however, his faith in the Person of Christ brought him to paradise with Christ. I believe baptism is important and every true, professing Christian should be baptized, but I do not believe salvation comes through baptism, I believe it’s faith alone in Christ alone.
Faith is the vehicle by which we receive grace from the sacrament.
The thief on the cross died before Jesus instituted baptism. As did all faithful Jews before him. As baptism was not instituted by Christ before the thief's death, there's no reason to expect he should have been baptized.
there is no religious ceremony that can save us, rather we must be born again
So true! As a Reformed pastor I fully agree with your explanation. Why are we in différent churhes?
Because of the view on the Eucharist, double predestination etc..
Limited atonement, eucharist, predestination, etc
I am baptized and confirmed Lutheran, so are you saying "received" is the same as when Jesus met Nicodemus and said you must be reborn is the same? I appreciate your explanation videos. God Bless.
Two questions! Where in scripture does it say that the sacrament is gods way of giving us salvation? And baptism?
Matthew 3:15 Jesus insisted that even John's baptism was fitting for them to fulfill all righteousness. A servant is not greater than his Lord.
Matthew 3:16 In baptism, the Father claims the Son. The Spirit rests on the Son.
Matthew 21:25 Mere water baptism is a gift from Heaven.
Matthew 28:19 Make disciples by baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and by teaching.
Mark 1:4 Mere water baptism repentance grants the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 16:16 Baptized believers are saved, unbelievers condemned.
Luke 7:29 Even water baptism is a public declaration that God is righteous.
Luke 7:30 Rejecting even mere water baptism = rejecting God's purpose for you.
John 1:31, 33 John knew beforehand that God would reveal the Christ through baptism.
Acts 2:38 Repentance and water baptism in the name of Jesus = forgiveness and the Spirit.
Acts 2:39-41 3000 bachelors, virgins, wives, husbands, and children of all ages (family festival) *received forgiveness and the Spirit in baptism.* The smallest can't have decided to repent in a mature way, but they were not excluded.
Acts 8 Many early church Bible readers saw a distinction between the Spirit's invisible gift of repentance/forgiveness and the Spirit's visible gift of leadership/ordination. Philip the Evangelist could baptize but not bestow spiritual authority. Only the apostles could do that.
Acts 10:47-48 Baptism in the name of Jesus is water baptism.
Acts 22:16 *Baptism washes away sins.*
Romans 6:3-5 *Water Baptism (which buries) is death to sin, death with Christ, newness of life in Christ, and resurrection with Christ.*
1 Corinthians 1:13 Baptism must not turn into hero worship, cliques, and factionalism.
1 Corinthians 12:13 On the contrary, baptism is unity in the one Holy Spirit in Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:29 Even heretical baptism declares the resurrection of the dead.
Galatians 3:27-28 Baptism clothes every member of the body of Christ in equality.
Ephesians 3:5 There is one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all.
Ephesians 5:26 *Baptism sanctifies the Church because it is the washing of water with the word.*
Colossians 2:11 Water Baptism is the Spiritual circumcision, the circumcision of Christ.
Colossians 2:12 Christ was buried. You were buried with Christ *in water baptism.* God raised Christ from the dead. You believe God raised Christ from the dead. Therefore, God raised you with Christ *in baptism.* This is all *God’s powerful work.*
Hebrews 6:1-2 *Baptism is a basic foundational teaching. You can't say you believe in Jesus while rejecting his basic teachings.*
1 Peter 3:20 Noah was saved by water, not from water. The flood waters washed away much evil.
1 Peter 3:21 Baptism now *saves you!* Baptism is assurance/demand of a good conscience before God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This verse summarizes all that has been said above.
The Bible does not only say that the Lord's Supper is done in remembrance:
Matthew 26:28 Jesus calls it the blood of the covenant.
Hebrews 9:20 The author quotes Moses saying the exact same words about real blood. There is no precedent here for saying "is" means "represents."
1 Corinthians 10:16 The bread and the cup are a koinonia (co-union/intimacy/participation/contribution/distribution) of the body and blood of Christ.
1 Cor 11:20 There is an objectively true Lord's Supper. Unreconciled schism within the congregation make it objectively not the Lord's Supper.
1 Cor 10:21-22 The Lord, whose name is Jealous, is jealous of his cup and his table.
1 Cor 11:23 The Lord specifically and personally revealed the Supper to Paul.
1 Cor 11:27 Misuse of the Lord's Supper is not just a bad reenactment. It makes you guilty of sin against the very body and blood of the Lord.
1 Cor 11:28-30 Mere reenactments do not require earnest soul searching on pain of punishment and death.
Therefore true Christian faith in these words: "This is my body which is for you, … This is my blood of the new covenant," must take all into account.
1 Cor 5:11 We are not to eat even secular food with christians who do not accept correction. Guests, whose lives are unknown to the pastor, should be catechised first. "Revilers" (who insult our face value belief) are rightly excluded.
Those brothers and sisters in Christ who don't think water baptism can save, or that bread and wine can forgive sin, because they are merely physical, and therefore, symbolic, forget that they were saved through hearing the Gospel, and then believing it. The also became red-pilled about sin through "living" words, which yielded repentance. What are words? Symbols with meaning attached. Written words are ink molecules on paper, or electrons activating light-emitting crystals, etc.. Spoken words are vibrating air molecules whose vibrations are received and interpreted by a physical brain. The point is, if they believe God the Holy Spirit is somehow "in, with, and under" a physical element (words) that can affect one's conversion, then it seems inconsistent to believe that He cannot also use other physical elements as delivery systems (water, bread and wine) to accomplish the same, as well.
I appreciate this but it really only
Works in a church context. What if a 10 year old kid comes
To faith in Jesus. Has no one to baptize him or no one to take them to church to get baptized? Not everyone goes to church and has that built in contexf
I have two questions I don't quite understand.
1st) How would Lutherans answer the question to how the Patriarchs before Christ were saved. Since Baptism is required. Would you simply say their baptism was the circumcision? And whet about the thief on the cross?
2) How does it make sense to say that Lutherans believe in Faith Alone, when in the Lutheran tradition, Baptism is a required work for salvation?
Thank you in advance.
Here are my thoughts as a Lutheran layman, so take them as you will.
On the first point, the Patriarchs were saved through faith "Abraham believed God" etc. Secondly, Lutherans do not teach that Baptism is required for salvation. We teach that it is a precious gift that is dangerous to spurn. If you believe and die before you can be baptized, you can still be saved. But to refuse to be baptized because you just have faith is to doubt the promises God attaches to Baptism, which contradicts the command to love the Lord God with all your heart soul and strength.
On the second point, Baptism is not a work in that it is not something we do to be saved. Rather, it is God using his Word working through the water to give salvation (1 Peter 3:21, Ephesians 5:25-27.)
All that to say, God through His Word does all the work in Baptism. We, through faith by his grace, believe that His Word does what it says it does. Baptism gives the Christian a concrete point at which their salvation occurs, so that through our trials and suffering we can cling to God's promises and trust in His mercy and grace.
Hope that was helpful, God's peace.
@@TheMendenhallen It certainly helps clear things up. Thank you for taking the time to explain things in more detail. Much appreciated
Baptism is likewise a subjective experience, just as well as a conversion experience could be. If neither of them testify of the inward objective realization of one's new atoned for (righteous) identity before a holy God, then they are void. And sure, a personal testimony is void. But the Word says to always be ready to give a reason for the hope you profess, and so the personal new birth testimony is our reference. I don't know about you, but beyond a shadow of a doubt, I went from death to life through a new birth experience when I was 22. I think that's imperitive, that unless a person is born again.
Salvation is received by gods grace by having faith in him and the resurrection. That’s it. Everything else is a byproduct.
1. We're saved by Jesus.
2. Jesus says we're saved by believing in him.
3. Jesus told his apostles to make disciples by baptizing and teaching.
4. His apostles taught, "Repent and be baptized every one of you for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the Holy Spirit."
5. So in order to believe in Jesus, you must believe 3 and 4.
Technically when u except God is when ur saved then u get baptized to show symbolically that you were saved
Some of y'all in the comments aren't listening...clearly you need to study Lutheranism more.
I have to say, your photo is just a perfect complement to your snarky (good-natured) one-liners. Love it!
It seems contradictory to say that Jesus finished salvation on the cross, which Jesus says he did. Then to say hear that communion “renews” or I’ve heard other Lutheran commentary say “maintains”.
I do not see anything in scripture that says communion maintains or renews salvation.
Anyone able to shine some light on this?
From yeast came bread and alcohol. Food and medicine ( ancient times). The blood of Christ is medicine. Medicine is created the betterment of humanity. Sharing The blood of Christ Symbolizes equality with in the congregation.
The teaching Christ are acts of selflessness to others.
Death is a portal into eternal life and once you pass through, what you’ve done is set in stone. the only thing that matters is what benefit did you provide others during your time on earth.
I read the Bible myself. I don’t see the point of hearing about someone else’s interpretation every seven days.
Some people do need that every Sunday, I’m glad they do and appreciate those who preach.
What is the Mystery of Faith..?
We were not saved 2000 years ago we were given the option to receive salvation 2000 years ago. Faith without works is dead
When does Acts 2::38 come in?
Can one reject PSA in favour of Christus Victor or the 'nonviolent atonement' espoused by René Girard, etc. (Christ's death reveals humanity's problem with violence, not God's) and still be a Lutheran? It feels like Protestantism and PSA go hand in hand.
I strongly disagree. "8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]" Romans 10 9-13 one of numerous scriptures. However, I leave you with this? Did the thief on the cross have time to get baptized?
And do Lutherans not believe in repentance as the scripture teaches?
Former Catholic here. New subscriber and wannabe Lutheran.
Jesus said i lay my life down for my sheep.
this is really similar to the Oriental Orthodox position of salvation surprisingly
The sinner needs to believe in his heart that GOD died on the cross to pay their personal sins they commit. Also to be saved the sinner has to ask God to come into his heart to save him from sin through prayer personally. Baptism does not save anyone. It is a act of showing faith just as taking the lords supper but these acts do not get you saved. The person is saved by believing in his heart and through the sinners prayer.
The Scripture says Baptism is required for salvation.
Jesus says I am the Bread of Life and unless you eat of my Flesh you have no life within you.
The Scripture says we must believe, repent and be baptized. And then we must live a Godly life loving and I obeying His commandments.
What the Scripture doesn’t say is that if we pray the sinners prayer we are saved and that’s it.
Where is the sinners prayer in Scripture?
Amen!
I struggle with baptismal regeneration.......are you saying that if someone hears the Word of God and puts their faith and trust in what Christ did for them on the cross, and they are never baptised.....that they are not saved? Please help me with this.
James Workman
I agree... this is a big question for me, too. If baptismal regeneration brings salvation or communion brings salvation or hearing the Word brings salvation, then do they have to come together? Or can salvation be granted separately?
If these three means of grace are distinct from faith in Christ, then how are they means of grace?
If a baby is not baptized before it dies, but the parents have been granted salvation, is that baby granted salvation?
Why do Confessional Lutherans say there are three means of grace when (in my opinion) there is only one mean of grace, which is the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made on the cross for our sins? Anything else that is added onto it creates a stipulation than man has to “do something” to achieve God’s grace. This is my struggle.
Mark 16:16 says that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but many of the cross-references I can find do not reference baptism (of course I am not reading the original language but I would hope that the major translations into English maintained their integrity enough to still be considered the infallible Word of God). The common link between all of them is belief, not baptism, it seems. This is something I also struggle with.
1 Peter 3:21 is something to be investigated because it reference “baptism, which now saves you” but it also goes into further detail in several versions as a pledge of a clear conscience towards God. So is it the act of baptism that saves, or is it Christ’s act on the cross which gives us a clear conscience, thus leading to baptism which saves?
Extremely well said.....agree to all! I attend a LCMS church, I really enjoy the formality of worship (Liturgy) but have difficulty with some of the beliefs. I can see in some verses of Scripture where they get their interpretation, but as you stated above, the preponderance of verses (especially involving salvation) speak to belief only as the single criteria.
Elisha Okay, since Jordan hasn't answered your question yet, I'll give it a go..
For Lutherans, the means of grace, are simply a means of regeneration - in the sense that you cannot separate faith from regeneration, (as regeneration necessarily precedes faith.. AND the Word of God is the power behind regeneration, e.g. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God…") The word and sacraments, (to a Lutheran) are the word of God under different forms, which work to regenerate us to faith.
In our theology, God works through means, at least normally, he is God and can do anything he wants to to achieve his goal of regenerating sinners to saving faith in the death and resurrection of his son, our Lord Jesus Christ... but normally, he works through the Word and Sacrament to deliver the forgiveness won on the cross. Baptism isn't just ordinary water, but it is water with the word of God. The trinitarian formula (from the great commission) is the pledge that Peter refers to as "saving," baptism which corresponds to the Noahic flood - now saves you, not because mere water can save you, but because of the promise of God that stands behind it… The same promise of God that was given to the thief on the cross, "I mark you as my own, today you will be with me in paradise…" Such a promise from God results in our regeneration to faith, and unless we resist the working of the Holy Spirit through that word of God/promise, we will be saved.
The Eucharist, is bread and wine attached to the word of God, the word of God that became flesh and made his dwelling among us… His very body and blood. Again, the sacraments are visible signs attached to the regenerating power of the word of God, the Eucharist as a means of grace has a similar effect that food does in relationship to birth. You are only born once, but you must eat food over and over again to stay alive; likewise, you are only baptized once but you need to be fed spiritual sustenance again and again in order for your faith to be strengthened.
Now, none of this is to say that you can't resist the Holy Spirit and his sacraments, and thus forfeit your salvation, but the point is God is constantly working at us to regenerate us and keep us in the faith, something we cannot do on our own.
Bottom line, the sacraments are *not* empty rituals that we do in order to attain salvation, as if they were works that are needed to be added on top of faith in order to be saved. For us, the sacraments are the means by which salvation that was achieved on the cross is delivered to us individually.
As such, while the Augsburg Confession of the Lutheran Church says "baptism is necessary for salvation..." we also make a distinction between a necessity and an absolute necessity. You 'can' be saved without baptism, but you cannot be saved without that which baptism is at its most fundamental essence - the word of God (and its regenerating power).
Aaron Carlson TY for your help
James Workman Yeah of course!
Im glad that my God is more powerful than yours. He doesn't allow me to tear up the "check" he gives me! A more biblical understanding can be found in the Westminster Standards and the Canons of Dordt.
@CyberKant Luk 18:9 KJV - And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
These are Christ's words prior to speaking the parable which you are referring to. A Calvinist doesn't trust in their own righteousness but puts their whole trust in God. That is why i said my God is mightier, because i know God will not allow me to fall away.
Matthew Henry may be helpful on this passage.
Project 1643 his analogy of tearing the check is a reference to one's personal agency and free will. The only thing we truly can say is ours.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
@@45s262 We are saved by our belief, yet this also is from God.
Eph 2:8 KJV - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
I'll stick with Jonah who says:
Jon 2:9 KJV - Salvation is of the LORD.
What about the spirit? Word Sacrament and Spirit
No one can believe Jesus's gifts of Word and Sacrament without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is rightly named. His work is always hidden and must be accepted by faith. He hesitates to point Himself out, but He delights to draw attention to the Father and the Son.
To what Lutheran denomination do you belong to? ELCA or LCMS?
He is LCMS
Thankfully.@@James-nk6tz
When people ask when I was saved I explain the confirmation process
yeah confirmation saves you 😂😂😂😂
But salvation is not just given. The only way to get salvation is to give your life to christ christ confess of all your sins and ask him to forgive you and will but you must live the way he wants you to live
As a Calvinist struggling with honest merits of Arminian thought yet rejecting semi-pelegianism... you sound like some "middle way". I'll have to replay this a few times, but it sounds like sorta an "Arminian-Calvinist universalist-definite atonement, I don't know- Christ-saved-me-ist"? Am I in the ball park?
Good examination. Weird video that's not clear
Probably a dumb question here, but what happens if I get saved on Saturday and plan to get baptized tomorrow morning, but then for whatever reason I die. What happens?
Whereas you heard God's word through Christ's Apostle in Acts 2:38; whereas you simply *believed* him, and did not raise objections such as, "What about the thief?", "Baptism doesn't save you!", "That's works righteousness!" etc.; Resolved: you are a true believer and have not forfeited salvation by dismissing God's word. You would be saved in this situation.
@@Mygoalwogel So kind of like because it was my intent to be obedient and faithful I’m saved whereas someone who refuses to be baptized is in active rebellion and clearly doesn’t have the faith? Is it something like that?
@@aidanmcwhirter2612 I overstated the case to emphasize how the Biblical connection between baptism and salvation in no way contradicts Sola Fide. But I ended up looking pretty legalistic.
*Before* faith can even have "intent to be obedient," faith first just merely desires what God offers in promise.
God says, "I want to save you from the thing that is ruining you, your sin."
Before faith can say, "I want to do better" it first says, "Yes! I want you to save me from that, Lord! Please help me! I can't help myself!"
In baptism God says, "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. You are mine. In front of the church, you are mine. In front of the world, you are mine. In front of the devil, you are mine. In front of your own conscience, you are mine. In front of your own self-chosen identities, you are mine. You are mine."
Faith says, "Yes, Lord! Make me yours however you want to. Tell the world, the devil, the church, my conscience. Tell everything that I am yours! You wanna use water and the spoken word to do it? Great! Do it!"
@@Mygoalwogel Hmm so then will the person who dies before they’re able to be baptized go to heaven? Babies? Thieves on crosses? I’m already baptized myself but I grew up Baptist and am doing my best to explore Lutheranism to understand it and hopefully join.
@@aidanmcwhirter2612
Please don't misunderstand me. Whereas you seemed to gather that I was suggesting that baptism is no more than a commandment ("intent to be obedient") I wanted to disabuse you. The power of baptism is the promise spoken to the person in the water. The power of baptism the pathetic "obedience" of getting dunked.
If a person brings her baby to be baptized, and the pastor replies, "What about the thief?", "Baptism doesn't save you!", "That's works righteousness!" Then that pastor is an unbeliever and still in his sins. I cannot know the fate of the mother and the child, though I hope and pray that all people will hear the truth and not only hear lies all their lives. And the Bible comforts us with hope, saying, "The one who did not know will receive a light punishment."
Your original question was about people who "plan to get baptized," not about people who just don't get baptized because baptism is _like, soooo whatever._
Edit: If the mother believes the Gospel as far as she knows it and teaches it to her child, she and the child will not be condemned for being unable to figure out everything on their own.
I had no idea this was the Lutheran belief. It makes baptism sound like works!
Was the thief on the cross baptized?
I’m not trying to be contentious here but what about Christ’s imputed righteousness through FAITH?
Good questions. This video might help: czcams.com/video/v_SxtUF09Z0/video.html
3Fafner
Thank you for responding, I have to still watch the video that pastor Cooper has linked but I don’t believe that baptism (while important) is a rite of salvation.
I’m willing to accept that I might be misunderstand the Lutheran point of view but I’m still trying to figure out what it actually is.
God does it all in our salvation through His Word AND His Sacraments. Everything is His work to us, not ours. We do nothing, we are dead, we are totally deprived of any possibility to save ourselves, although not totally incompetent to do many things with our minds and bodies. He declares us just because of His love and He makes everything to us, for us, because we can't. Faith is Grace is HIS gift. Baptism is Grace is HIS gift. Penance is Grace is HIS gift. Sanctification is Grace is HIS gift. The Liturgy is Grace is HIS gift. The Eucharist is Grace is HIS gift. Not spiritually only, not abstractly only, but fully OBJECTIVELY, in history. The ancient church and their heirs (Catholics, Orthodox', Lutherans) all believe, though differently in words and emphasis, that God incarnating Himself saves the matter also, not only our souls. He sanctifies soul and matter, our soul and our body, us and nature. He also uses the matter in order to make His salvation, His gifts to us, objectively lived, conceived, accepted. Nothing in our salvation is only spiritual, but material also, not abstractly but objectively. .
J Wallander Respectfully, if you are an evangelical you reject baptism as necessary for salvation because it has been drilled into you as a Protestant over-reaction to not being Roman Catholic. However if you study the Scriptures without that preconceived notion it is very evident that baptism in water is an intrinsic part of conversion. Heck, it’s right there in the Great Commission (Matt 28:19).
Ultimately, it is Christ's imputed righteousness and atoning sacrifice that save us, and these gifts are received through faith. Baptism saves not in and of itself, but because it gives us Christ and his benefits, which we receive through faith. Baptism is normative, but it's not an absolute requirement. The thief on the cross indicated that he had received the gifts of Christ through faith even though he had not been baptized.
why quote a sinner in his writing then rather then God's word?
so if one sins, that person is in danger of hell unless
they get forgiven, and to be forgiven, they must take communion?
what about the blood of Christ? was that not enough to
forgive mankind of all sins after first getting saved?
is not one sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise when they get saved?
is there anything that can separate them from the love of God
after getting saved?
Evidently this person doesn't believe that, sadly...😐😐😐
@@lcringo3498 that's because according to him , he's a luthran. and luthranism is quite literally catholicsm. and we know that according to Revelation 17 and 18 in the King James Bible, we see that roman catholicsm lines up perfectly with mystery babylon. and therefore, her harlots, consist of luthranism (as well as all protistant denominations, as well as mormonism, islam, and more)
luthrans hold to the core teaching of her mother, and that is the trinity. and that's what they will see. the trinity is in the bible, but it will be revealed after the body of Christ leaves (which from what i understand, luthrans, in the foot steps of their mother, don't believe in the blessed hope of the catching up
this man is not saved.
his god is the roman catholic trinity.
and the trinity when it's revealed (i'll not be here on earth to see it according to teh King James Bible) will be the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet.
three separate persons yet
the three all claiming to be the one
God.
"God in three persons, blessed trinity"
that is what they will be singing to Satan in the personages of three separate beings
@@xceptamanbbornagainnokingd5836 With all due respect to you,"XceptAManBborn", your concept of the Triune God isn't even remotely Scriptural! What the what are you talking about?? You had better WAAAY more Biblical studies than you have so far my friend...Try again...🤨🤨🤨
.
@@lcringo3498 ok, first things first, explain to me the trinity
@@xceptamanbbornagainnokingd5836 I'll let you explain it to yourself: Ask yourself this question: Who in the Scriptures is called God? Operating on the assumption that you are familiar with sound Biblical exegesis and hermuneutics, you should have NO trouble answering that question---GO! 😏😏😏
Let's change the question. What do Lutherans (or anyone else) think about driving a car.
How has God revealed so many things to different christian denominations and then further splinter groups so that there are so many firmly held contrary views ? Makes no sense !
wrong! to know whether your conversion was true is to
see if you have a new life in Christ.
in 2Corinthians 5:17 we see that is says
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
we see examples of this in John 9 with the blind man,
with Brother Paul where in the pauline epistles he talks about
how he use to be a wicked man, persecuting the body of Christ
and an evil man but after God the Father touched him, he had a changed life.
this is what Jesus was talking about in John 3:3 when he said except a man be born again
he cannot see the kingdom of God. also we see another example of a changed life
in Mark 5 where the man that was possessed with man devils had a major
changed after Jesus touched him (affected his life). the devils were
cast out and he was no longer the same person. THIS is the
sign of a true believer, true Christian. not relying on what
you do.
Baptism isn't your work. Its Christ's. Clearly you aren't paying attention to the Lutheran view of soteriology.
Be baptised into Christ for the remission of sins and receive the Holy Spirit.
The baptism in other churches counts, for you?
If it's a baptism in the Triune name, yes.
What if you have Faith then die on your way to be baptized are you still going to heaven?
Great question! I have a video which addresses that here: czcams.com/video/yIUgdn-iQbQ/video.html
Saying baptism doesn't save, Jesus does, is like saying a doctor doesn't heal, medicine does.
In stead of people getting bent out over "saved" just accept the under normal circumstances Baptism and Eucharist are Central and Important to the Christian life. And stop dogmatizing over who can and will receive the Redemptive Grace in the next life.
Thank you for clarifying the heresy that I suspected.
Did Jesus die for those who perished already before His incarnation ?
Romans 3:24 "and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood. He did this to demonstrate His justice, because in His forebearance He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - 26 He did it to demonstrate His justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."
Its kinda strangr. He pushes baltism and communion fitst rather then faith. Like baptism is notbing on noth sides if there is no faith. Plus things in scripture push faith first then they talk baptism or merely just faith without memtioning it.
Does it matter what the Lutheran view is, if they have a fallible ability to understand scripture based on luthers opinion.
I had so many questions in my mind that I didn't get an answer to in Lutheranism so I resigned from it.
And I couldn't find a church that would have even tried to give answers.
Right, so I've read the Bible without the guidance of the priests. This is how I got my faith. Paul teaches that each one stays in the position where he is "called" so I never join any religious organization.
Paul in the book of Hebrews says that we ought not neglect gather together weekly! see Hebrews 10:25
Look up Les Feldick on CZcams. He makes it real clear. Lutherans are Catholics really and Catholics are the false church.
Verbose to disguise how convoluted it is
Although to be precise in theological discussion you need to use theological "language", understanding the meanings of the terms involved. Not possible in "normal" conversation when discussing theology.
Does anyone else find the economic analogies predictable, significant, and ironic?
So you wear Roman Catholic robes?
I think it is very odd to say that Jesus paid for your salvation but He did not get the delivery for it! Salvation cannot happen on the cross for that person but not in the person for that person. And Jesus cannot ultimately save anyone since ALL could reject him. That is not a very powerful grace. I stand by the reformed view but I am very thankful for the work you do Jordon. I follow you and hope you continue the good work! GB
_"I think it is very odd to say that Jesus paid for your salvation but He did not get the delivery for it!"_
Then we must conclude that the Bible is odd by Per's definition.
*2 Peter 2:1* Christ bought even the heretics who deny Him and destroy themselves.
_"Salvation cannot happen on the cross for that person but not in the person for that person."_
Wha?
_"And Jesus cannot ultimately save anyone since ALL could reject him."_
Strawman. This is not the Lutheran view. Lutherans are monergist, believing that God forknew whom he predestined.
_"That is not a very powerful grace."_
Your strawman is not a very powerful grace.
@@Mygoalwogel Thank you for the reply. I first seek to understand, then to argue. Are you saying that The salvation is monergistic but man cooperated by their choice to believe without making salvation synergistic?
@@Mygoalwogel Who died with Jesus on the cross? I refer to Rom 6:6 (our old self was crucified with him). Now did all people's old selves die with Jesus on the cross or just "we")?
@@Mygoalwogel Was the intention of God before the foundation of the world to make people savable or was it to save elected people?
@@perzetterberg7907
No. Lutherans teach that man "cannot believe or come to my Lord by my own reason or strength. But the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith." Man has no role in his own salvation except to give thanks for it and to enjoy/suffer being converted "to will and to work for God's good pleasure."
Yet the Bible puts all blame on men for their refusal to believe and be saved. How these work out is a mystery.
Now by mystery, I do not mean hand waving.
The Trinity is mystery.
There are two syllogisms in the Athanasian Creed that appear mutually paradoxical. (see footnote)
Modalism and other early church notions provide logical solutions to the Trinity paradox.
Modalism and all other early church solutions have been deemed heresy.
There exists in God's knowledge another solution that is not heresy.
*Mystery = Apparent paradox whose solution is possible but not revealed in Scriptures.*
Footnote:
The Athanasian Paradox:
AC sentences 15-16
Father = God
Son = God
Spirit = God
Therefore, Father = Son = Spirit = God. i.e., "they are not three Gods, but one God."
AC s. 5
Father = one person
Son = another person
Spirit = and another person
Therefore, Father != Son != Spirit
Romans 8:9-11. You must have received the Holy Spirit. John 3. You must be born again which is the new birth by the Holy Spirit. John 3
Where is the Holy Spirit in your new birth?
Faith + Nothing
Jesus Christ was punished and sacrificed in our place for all of our sins once and for always.
When we heard the Gospel, we were born again (John 1:13) by receiving a new spirit (Ezek 36) that is free from the control of the sinful nature that kept us away from God.
And the moment we were born again, we also received the gift of faith through which we trusted in Christ as Lord. The moment we trusted in Christ, we received all the benefits of Christ’s sacrifice.
And, the moment we trusted in Christ, God gave us the righteousness of Christ (through which we were justified) which is required to enter heaven.
And through that same faith we were obedient to Christ’s commands to repent, carry our cross daily and follow Him according to the Scriptures.
holy baptism? what do you mean and where's that in scripture?
baptism of the holy spirit, not water.
thief, many receiving the holy spirit, etc, never water baptism.
Faith is simply the hands of a begger receiving those gifts. GREAT!!
I thought "repentence" = conversion. John the Baptist (Matthew 3:7-10) called all to repentence.. including religious saducees and pharisees and not to think that because they are children of Abraham they were exempt. I mean there is NO such thing as a christian who has been faithful since childhood. Its a delusion that Anglicans (my part) and Lutherans share .. the conversion might not be dramatic but its necesary .. a first turning from self to God. .
Lutherans don't deny the conversion kind of repentance. It's all over C.F. Walther's _Of the Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel._
@@Mygoalwogel is that available in audio on CZcams
@@Liminalplace1 Librivox
@@Liminalplace1 Thank you for not immediately arguing. I agree with you that, in our zeal to distance ourselves from enthusiasts, we've definitely neglected the orthodox understanding of the subjective.
Which Anglican communion are you?
"They recognized him in the breaking of the bread." All such explanations as you give here are not very helpful. If someone wants to know "what Lutherans believe about salvation," they need to attend worship. I ask converts to come for at least 12 weeks in a row both to worship and the pastor's Sunday morning class where they will learn the sounds, sights, smells, feel, traditions, doctrines and practices of the church. Once they have done that then I will give them personal instruction.
Did you not receive The Holy Spirit when you were baptized? The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Were you sealed with God's Spirit when you were baptized?....in water... So the water and the Word is the objective sign that you were sealed by God with His Eternal Spirit. Why do you not emphasize this as staggering Good News? You don't even mention it. Lutherans leave this out for some reason. Almost sounds mechanical. Do you want to avoid the notion that God infuses grace into you? Would that sound too Catholic... Could this be a reason that some Lutherans descended into pietism .. or go after something more experiential?
czcams.com/video/o9k9-RqMfAI/video.html This is a Lutheran hymn about what you're talking about.
Holy Spirit only proceeds from the Father
@@blade7506 You sound like a Greek. But not a Lutheran. My above comment was a year ago. I.m more along the lines of Bishop Ambrose's confession before communion these days. Luther himself could have written it. As for Jesus, his very words and deeds are an eternal procession of the Lord, the giver of Life.
@@Mygoalwogel thanks for sending that
So true. So simple. Listened for a few hours late onto the wee hours. Couldn' t make out all the words to some of them. Is God of Abram' s praise Lutheran? A favorite of mine, wherever it came from.
@@bdff4007 I don't think so, but we include it in some of our hymnals. Thanks for making me read Ambrose's Communion Confession. I'd seen it before but it didn't occur to me how 'Lutheran' it is.
"Lord Jesus Christ,
I approach your banquet table in fear and trembling,
for I am a sinner,
and dare not rely on my own worth,
but only on your goodness and mercy.
I am defiled by many sins in body and soul,
and by my unguarded thoughts and words.
Gracious God of majesty and awe,
I seek your protection,
I look for your healing.
Poor troubled sinner that I am,
I appeal to you, the fountain of all mercy.
I cannot bear your judgment,
but I trust in your salvation.
Lord, I show my wounds to you and uncover my shame before you.
I know my sins are many and great,
and they fill me with fear,
but I hope in your mercies,
for they cannot be numbered.
Lord Jesus Christ, eternal king, God and man,
crucified for mankind,
look upon me with mercy and hear my prayer,
for I trust in you.
Have mercy on me,
full of sorrow and sin,
for the depth of your compassion never ends.
Praise to you, saving sacrfice,
offered on the wood of the cross for me and for all mankind.
Praise to the noble and precious blood,
flowing from the wounds of the my crucified Lord Jesus Christ and washing away the sins of the whole world.
Remember, Lord your creature,
whom you have redeemed with your blood;
I repent my sins,
and I long to put right what I have done. Merciful Father, take away all my offenses and sins;
purify me in body and soul,
and make me worthy to taste the holy of holies.
May your body and blood,
which I intend to receive, although I am unworthy,
be for me the remission of my sins,
the washing away of my guilt,
the end of my evil thoughts,
and the rebirth of my better instincts.
May it incite me to do the works pleasing to you and profitable to my health in body and soul,
and be a firm defense against the wiles of my enemies. Amen."
So sacraments are what get you saved? Lutheranism seems so dead and basically catholic theology. Makes no sense.
It seems to us those who reject the Bible verses that connect baptism to salvation are pitting Sola Fide against Sola Scriptura.
Matthew 3:16 In baptism, the Father claims the Son. The Spirit rests on the Son.
Matthew 21:25 Mere water baptism is a gift from Heaven.
Matthew 28:19 Make disciples by baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and by teaching.
Mark 1:4 Mere water baptism = repentance for the forgiveness of sins = salvation
Mark 16:16 *Baptized believers are saved, unbelievers condemned.*
Luke 7:29 Even water baptism is a public declaration that God is righteous.
Luke 7:30 *Rejecting even mere water baptism = rejecting God's purpose for you.* = Unsaved
John 1:31, 33 John knew beforehand that God would reveal the Christ through baptism.
Acts 2:38 *Repentance and baptism = forgiveness and the Spirit.* = Saved
Acts 2:39-41 3000 bachelors, virgins, wives, husbands, and *children of all ages received forgiveness and the Spirit in baptism.* The smallest can't have decided to repent in a mature way, but they were not excluded.
Acts 8 Many early church Bible readers saw a distinction between the Spirit's invisible gift of repentance/forgiveness and the Spirit's visible gift of leadership/ordination. Evangelist Philip could baptize but not bestow spiritual authority. Only the apostles could do that.
Acts 22:16 *Baptism washes away sins.*
Romans 6:3, 4 *Baptism is death to sin, death with Christ, and newness of life in Christ.*
1 Corinthians 1 Baptism must not turn into hero worship, cliques, and factionalism.
1 Corinthians 12:22, 13 On the contrary, baptism is unity in the one Holy Spirit in Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:29 Even superstitious baptism declares the resurrection of the dead.
Galatians 3:27, 28 Baptism clothes every member of the body of Christ in equality.
Ephesians 3:5 There is one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all.
Colossians 2:11 Baptism is a works-free death, a cutting off of the flesh.
Colossians 2:12 In baptism, God raised you with Christ through faith.
Hebrews 6:1-2 *Baptism is a basic foundational creedal teaching. You can't say you believe in Jesus while rejecting his basic teachings.*
1 Peter 3:20 Noah was saved by water, not from water. The flood waters washed away much evil.
1 Peter 3:21 Baptism now *saves you! Baptism = assurance* of a good conscience before God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Jesus saves through the sacraments.
And no it is not basically Catholic Theology there's huge differences, the only similarity is that Jesus saves through the sacraments. But the reason I believe this is because it is in the Bible. The Bible says baptism saves (as all the references the person above me posted), and all the early Christians believed this.
So to say baptism saves is to say "Jesus saves". Baptism is not a work that we do but a work that God does to us.
The reason it's important is because subjective conversion experiences can always be doubted. But in scripture we see that in baptism (and the Lord's supper, see John 6 and 1 Corinthians 10:16) God gives us his life, that we must receive by faith.
Dr. Jordan B Cooper. The Bible and the Greek proves that water baptism doesn't save. The translators have misled people with. Mk 16: 16.
Acts 2: 38. Acts 22: 16. 1 Pet 3: 21, as well as other scriptures about baptism.
Every Greek meaning for, "Baptism", is by total immersion, NOT by pouring water on a head.
There's no such Biblical thing as infant baptism, God's M. O is first hear and understand the gospel, Then chose to believe it and get born again, Then chose to be baptised by total immersion.
The Bible says we are saved by faith alone. Jn 3: 16. Eph 2: 8--9. NOT by any sacraments.
Salvation is the rebirth which happens at a persons conversion.
He just skipped the entire doctrine of rebirth. I came to faith at 29 after being raised and baptized lutheran at 16. I was not saved till I was 29, and then after being baptized by the spirit, I chose to be fully submerged in baptism, and shortly after, the Lord called me into ministry. Praise be to God. We need to pray for the Lutheran church.
sacramnet is catholic. it's not found in the King James Bible.
speaking of King James Bible, this man is all talk, but no scripture.
what's up with that?
water baptism? so works? but doesn't the scriptures
say that it is not by the works of righteousness which we have done? (Titus 3:5)
and that it's by God's grace through our faith, not by works? (Ephesians 2:8-9)
his word? what is his word? you say the bible, i ask which one?
do we have a perfect, end all bible?
church, what do you mean by that and what saith the scriptures of it?
So the KJV is the only Bible? If you say "yes," I cannot take anything here you take seriously.
I was raised a Lutheran boy and knew I was a child of God starting at the age of 4 years old. That was back in 1959.
Christian fundamentalism sucks.
Jesus did not accomplish salvation for everybody when He died on the cross. The thief on the cross was with Him in Paradise. The other was not.
Jesus's sacrifice was plenty to save him, too. He preferred to mock with his final breaths. It doesn't mean Jesus was unwilling.
*Luke **7:30* God's βουλή (plan/purpose/resolve/counsel) for the Pharisees was to accept them. But they rejected this βουλή of God for themselves, by refusing John's baptism. biblehub.com/greek/1012.htm
*Luke **8:13* Jesus asserts that some really do *joyfully believe* the gospel for a while, and actually *fall away* through trials and temptations.
*Luke **11:13* Jesus is emphatic that the Father gives the Holy Spirit to anyone who asks.
*Eph **4:30* The Ephesians were sealed for the day of redemption, yet Paul warned them that the possibility of grieving the Holy Spirit was a reality.
*2 Peter 2:1* Christ bought even the heretics who deny Him and destroy themselves.
*1 Tim 2:1-6* Christ died for all people and wants all people to be saved. Therefore, Paul commands us to *interceed* even for godless kings and rulers.
*1 Timothy **4:10**; 1 John 2:2* He is especially the Savior of believers. He remains the Savior of all people. This makes the labor of evangelism and the reproach of scoffers bearable.
*Hebrews 3:1-12* Even "holy brothers and sisters" can "turn away from the living God" with an "evil, unbelieving heart."
*Hebrews 2:1, **12:25* The author and the audience could reject God's warning and not escape.
@@Mygoalwogel What Jesus accomplished on the cross was His obedience to the will of God. Jesus did not accomplish people's salvation. A person has to come to God to be saved. What Jesus did was place Himself into a position of authority because of His obedience. The work of His ministry on Earth was finished. But He still works today.
@@RobertMOdell Oh? Which type of non-trinitarian are you? Mormon? Arian? Jehovah's Witness?
Did you read Luther's tract Regards faith and works. Isaiah 40 v 13& 55: 8-9. Pointless trying to work out Gods ways. So these posts are pointless and human explanations fail , Ecclesiastes 7 v 16.
baptism by fire
Hu?
Baptism is a "Work", and is applied teaching from the old testament and doctern or "Law". We live under the new testament and doctern of Paul the apostle, read all of acts not the first part! It's Paul not Peter that we live under. You can be baptized but it will not save you. When someone gives you somthing,it's done. You do nothing else! Truth is,we are saved by his grace through faith! Took me years of painful afflictions to untangle my mind. God bless You!
"It's Paul not Peter that we live under"I pray that you get under a bible believing pastor. The Apostles are not at odds.
James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
+George Ibrahim -- I suggest you (and others like you, e.g., Roman Catholic, who might be trolls) read the following and *STOP* being a horse's ass.
*_"Does James disagree with Paul on Justification? An Exegetical Comparison of Romans _**_3:27_**_-4:4 and James _**_2:14_**_-26"_* by *Nathaniel F. Walther*
essays.wls.wels.net/bitstream/handle/123456789/51/Walther.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y