Abortion United Evangelicals and Republicans. Now That Alliance Is Fraying.
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
- The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest denomination of Protestant Christians in the United States, voted at an annual gathering last week to oppose the use of in vitro fertilization.
Ruth Graham, who covers religion, faith and values for The New York Times, discusses the story behind the vote, the Republican scramble it prompted and what it could eventually mean for the rest of the country.
Guest: Ruth Graham (www.nytimes.com/by/ruth-graham) , who covers religion, faith and values for The New York Times.
Background reading:
• How baptists and the Republican Party took different paths on I.V.F. (www.nytimes.com/2024/06/13/us...)
• Here’s what to know about the vote (www.nytimes.com/article/south...) .
For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily (nytimes.com/thedaily?smid=pc-t...) . Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.
Trump was a test for Conservative Christians.
They failed. 💔
No theocracy in the USA.
It sounds like the typical conservative position here. "I'm against it... unless it affects me." Tell me I'm wrong.
And FFS, if the SBC doesn't represent "mainstream Republicans" I sure don't know who does.
Arguably there is a non-arbitrary moral distinction to be made between the termination of embryos in IVF and some abortions. For example, an anti-abortion IVF defender might point to embryo death in the normal course of reproduction and say embryo death in IVF is like that. They'd start with: Is sex among spouses for the purpose of reproduction OK? Most people say yes. But a woman's body actively surveils a developing embryo for abnormalities and will terminate in some cases, and all told >20% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage - a number that's even higher if you count all fertilization as pregnancy. So apparently the ends justify the means or something like that - bottom line: it's OK to participate in a process that regularly produces dead embryos as long as it's just part of reproduction... But if that's OK for natural reproduction, wouldn't it also be OK for IVF assisted reproduction? And you might still say most abortion is not OK because the end goal is not to reproduce... or something like that.
Of course if you're acknowledging the scientific fact that the human body is naturally an abortion practitioner - which is btw probably the whole reason humans menstruate, to facilitate that, whereas the vast majority of mammals do not shed a uterine lining - you might be uncomfortably close to a sensible pro-choice position. An evangelical might prefer to stick their head in the sand rather than argue IVF is OK because the human body in the image of God is out there terminating pregnancies for the health of the mother, because the fetus is non-viable, etc.
I think IVF is too big...everyone knows someone effected by IVF
@@pretty7545 IDK, I'd argue that a MAGAt making that argument is just rationalizing their own self-interest. If they believe that a fertilized egg (why just a fertilized one? ) is a human being, then an egg that's fertilized by IVF would also be a life.
If God can choose to not put a little baby soul in an IVF egg, then why can't he choose to not put the baby soul in a raped child's egg?
It's the same with the left.
@@donjindra example?
Do they ever discuss the ethics of supporting Donald Trump?
If they can even acknowledge that he's has done anything wrong to begin with and has some serious flaws, they'll typically find a way to justify it by citing biblical figures who were also deeply flawed but who were nevertheless "chosen" by God to be a vessel for his divine will.
Great point. Someone who does is Pat Kanke, a retired pastor doing a series on why Christians shouldn’t vote for Trump. His channel is Culture, Faith and Politics and has been super helpful in breaking down the ethics, morality and way of Christ vs way of Trump. He is knowledgeable with humility and pulls no punches. He’s not a shouter, he’s quiet and values all people. Highly recommend for sharing with friends, Christian or not.
@@thestraightroad305 I didn't know that. Thank you
@@Jesse-ey5xd you are so welcome!
God help the Women of America
God? Ma'am.....YOU BETTER VOTE! ❤
Yeah Protect Women From Religious Fanatics
As a former evangelical this issue is often covered by treating evangelical men as true believers with deep morals. I would like to see more reporting from the frame of controlling women’s bodies via religion is meant to uphold power structures (patriarchy). I truly believe as women have gained control over our bodies and become financially independent men are using reproductive issues as a weapon to regain control over women.
Correct. If they were really concerned about abortion, they would ask why abortions dropped dramatically under Obama and rose just as dramatically under Trump. But they are not concerned so they don't ask.
You are exactly right. It’s all about control.
“The SBC passed its first resolution on abortion two years before the Roe decision. While the Convention never supported the right of a woman to have an abortion at her request for any reason, the resolution did acknowledge the need for legislation that would allow for some exceptions.
In fact, many Southern Baptists saw the Roe decision as drawing a needed line between church and state on matters of morality and state regulation. A Baptist Press article just days after the decision called it an advancement of religious liberty, human equality and justice.
The Convention affirmed this resolution in 1974 after Roe was decided. A 1976 resolution condemned abortion as “a means of birth control” but still insisted the decision ultimately remained between a woman and her doctor.”
Of course these are not our Church Elders and we should be free FROM religion as well as have a freedom OF religion in the US. The majority of people in the US do not equate an embryo/early fetus to a newborn - because it isn’t. Women’s bodies are being used as political playgrounds/incubators by the government.
The Republican party and evangelicals have not been in lockstep since the 1970s. This reporter is ignorant about party history. My wife and I were seriously involved in Republican party politics in Texas during the 80s. We were part of many county and state platform fights during that time. That is when evangelicals were taking over the state party. There was a bitter divide between the religious crazies and traditional Republicans. The Christian right eventually won the fight primarily by taking over precinct chairmen positions. They slowly expelled traditional Republicans. But it took at least a decade. There were books written about the battle including "Invasion of the Party Snatchers" by Victor Gold. It's too bad that reporters are so sloppy with history.
With this logic, it seems that forcing a woman to continue with an ectopic pregnancy would be warranted. A literal Deus ex Machina could save the child. If not, then I guess it wasn’t God’s will. Mother died too? Op cit …
This game show, which is popular with a lot of groups across the spectrum, is "Who Wants to be the Biggest Zealot?"
🎯 Key points for quick navigation:
00:47 *🙏 The Southern Baptist Convention is the largest Protestant denomination in the U.S. with significant political influence among evangelicals.*
01:56 *👶 The convention discussed the ethics of in vitro fertilization (IVF) for the first time, as the procedure often involves discarding excess embryos.*
03:29 *💥 A resolution called for restricting reproductive technologies that violate the "dignity" of frozen embryos, viewed as human life from conception.*
05:48 *⚖️ An Alabama court ruling that embryos should be considered children sparked debate on the legality and ethics of IVF.*
10:51 *👨👩👧👦 Emotional personal stories from IVF parents highlighted the dilemma during the convention's debate.*
14:16 *💥 The resolution's overwhelming approval sets evangelicals on a potential collision course with mainstream Republicans who support IVF access.*
17:48 *🏛️ Democrats see an opportunity to exploit the growing divide between evangelicals and Republicans on reproductive issues ahead of elections.*
20:49 *💭 While some evangelicals are skeptical, one-on-one conversations could make them more critical of IVF's ethics, with potential policy implications.*
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Life doesn't start with embryos. Sperms and eggs are alive, and they are human cells. Every sperm and egg combination is a potential human. They need to make sure to preserve every sperm and egg from dying. Likewise, if human cloning becomes possible every skin cell will be a potential human and should be prevented from dying.
@@gsdavis91 and in the Bible God often orders the slaughter of babies and children and even causes parents to starve in order that the parents eat their babies. There is no human dignity in the Bible. That would have arisen much later.
Sounds like Sharia to me
Inshallah, brother. If only.
Being pro-IVF but also being anti-abortion is hypocritical. What you are basically saying is that technology can be used politically and selectively.
IVF is supported because it self-selects for wealthy (read white) couples. If a couple is poor or minority..well it reverts to "in pain and suffering you shall bring forthchildren."
So, the Evangelicals are cool with all other sexual intercourse except vaginas exposure to sperm. I assume anal & oral probing with the specific goal of not risking a pregnancy is endorsed by them, but I never heard of their specific endorsement of such practices. I assume manmade probing devices are embraced by them. In my own ignorance, I thought they were against that type of interaction also. How will this new guide line affect rape or incest in the courts? You learn new things every day. Thanks, CZcams.
what percentage of the US population does the Baptist Convention represent, and how is this decision going to affect future cooperation with the Trump campaign platform. What is the Trump platform going to be spelled out
Cooperation ends after the evangelicals vote. Trump cares nothing about any of their positions. If he is re-elected either he can’t be re-elected again legally, or he will become an unelected dictator. In either case, Trump won’t need them anymore.
SBC has 13 million members but there are other denominations involved in the anti-abortion political movement
@@cactustree505 Even though they represent 13 million members, they all don't support this. IVF is supposed by over 85% of the population. This will cause a huge schism in the SBC.
Nah, I think they should keep interfering with family formation and see what happens. Stick to your principles, guys!
just like the man can be a woman trans movement is 'going too far left' -- anti-IVF based on conception as life is 'too far right'.
most Americans don't agree with changing title 9 and that biological men can compete in competitive sports - byu the same measure - most Americans don't support this level of IVF restriction.
I agree with what you're saying, but the difference is trans issues effect a miniscule part of the population. Christian conservatives are trying to take away procreation rights from every family....do you see the difference?
Most Americans believe that people should be able to live their lives however they choose.
Most people disagree with conservatives and their anti-abortion and anti-trans witch hunts!
Don't Murder your Children
Before brainwaves, it is not a person.
You cannot force us to believe in souls.
That only makes sense if you believe that every woman who gets an abortion should be charged with murder and sentenced to life in prison.
Do you believe that?
Show us how insane conservatives really are...
How can a nation founded from people fleeing religious persecution be more zealot then the old world?
It really look less and less like "the land of the free"
Psalm 139:13-14, New International Version, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb." How do you know that the reference isn't to just that individual person and not to everyone else in general? There are a lot of problems with the anti-abortion perspective including intellectual dishonesty. There is additional evidence that it only applies to an individual but one could deduce that from basic logic.