Consequences.
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- čas přidán 25. 04. 2020
- That0therGeorge delves into how consequences are utilised in stories, be it through video games, movies and TV shows. The main examples used in this video are Halo: Reach (2010), Spider-Man 3 (2007), Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (2019) & Logan (2017)
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I’m way too late to this, but this is a great video! I’ve always noticed that films that provide higher consequences pull me in the most.
Thank you! And yeah absolutely
Spider man 2 does this very well. Peter goes through so much shit in that film and it makes the watchers root for him more
Oh for sure! That's why I didn't go too hard on Spider-Man 3 because that trilogy has so many well executed consequences
@@That0therGeorge yeah spider man 3, its a messy film but i grew up loving as a kid so i just cant hate it lol
@@gavatundejr4986 Oh yeah same here. It's flawed but better than at least half of modern comic book movies I'd say
@@That0therGeorge Did you see War for the planet of the apes yet?
George!! Fantastic video!! This is a very informative video about how to create relatable conflict for story characters. These are tips that people need to think deeply about when crafting a novel or screenplay. I appreciate your points and am glad you made this video! Cannot wait to see more videos from you dude:)
Thank you very much! And yeah exploring this topic and re-watching all these movies helped me to understand this side of story-telling as well. Again thank you Mac, I appreciate it bro
If Peter stopped the robber, Marco wouldn't get distracted and shoot Ben. So, Peter still could have saved his life.
Amazing video and absolutely true. Consequences are a big part of storytelling and when you take that away you remove the weight of choice.
Thank you so much Joe and yeah I obviously absolutely agree with that
Found your channel today! Love the content so subbed :D
Thank you very much dude, I appreciate that a lot and I hope to see you around again soon :)
Rogue One, Halo: Reach, Better Call Saul... I've grown to absolutely love Fatalistic Prequels, using 'fatalism' here to mean 'predetermined and we know the outcome' more than necessarily 'everyone dies'. It's just that we know their fate, we know where it's going, but as with the classic example of drama being a ticking bomb beneath a table we know is present but the characters don't... drawing it out while knowing what's going to happen can enhance drama rather than take it away.
Completely agreed. Plus, with that logic, would it always be pointless to re-watch a film or show? I just don't think the point holds up when you get into the details or look at examples of Prequels that work incredibly well.
Star wars fans gonna be pissed but I did love the points you made. Another great video George💙
@@That0therGeorge anytime George
@@That0therGeorge no😂
I am a Star Wars fan and I despised the Rise of Skywalker and it really pissed me off that they brought Palpatine back, his death in ROTJ was the perfect end to his story and his return also reduces the impact of that scene which is one of the best of the entire series. Vader killed him and it should have stayed that way. The sequel trilogy was pointless and had no clear direction.
@@kianomahony6390 Very well said dude. 100% agree!
Star Wars fans are always pissed
Interesting take, There are few things in story telling that are more satisfying than seeing consequences realistically played out. Enjoyed the video, look forward to future content.
Yeah for sure, this video was just focusing on that aspect primarily though. Thanks!
This is the best video you have ever made
Thank you very much! I had a blast making this video so I shall have to do some more stuff like it
@@That0therGeorge your welcome
Also what's next for cool to hate video?
@@That0therGeorge oh ok :)
@@JoeyDoesStuff1120 I've been enjoying making these videos too much haha. Was there anything in particular you would like to see in the Cool to Hate series tho?
@@That0therGeorge no
This is an excellent video and I agree with the points you have made.
Thank you!
This is such an important discussion. Sometimes lack of consequence is fine but it can give you a struggle to invest in a characters actions. It took me out of walking dead when Daryl would do anything because it was 99.9% chance he would be fine. Consequences or at least the potential of consequence is important for us to feel anything.
Yeah man! That's why I felt motivated to make a video about it. I agree with that obviously haha
Also, Spider-Man 3 ruins that scene from Spider-Man 2 were Peter admits to being partially responsible for Uncle Ben's death. That was a huge moment for Peter's character and it helped develop the bond between him and Aunt May. But nah Peter, don't worry. It wasn't your fault after all.
You know what, I didn't even think of that & I love that scene from Spider-man 2. Thanks for adding!
It still is his fault- What you talking about?
@@That0therGeorge But then they try and be like "Oh Sandman accidentally shot him so it's nobody's fault."
LIKE COME ON DUDE.
Regarding the Force Healing, Rey clarifies in the movie that she gives some of her own life in order to heal others. So it's a finite ability that operates based on equivalent exchange, not an ability that can just be used on a dime. That is why it kills Ben Solo at the climax of the film, because in order to bring Rey back to life, he had to give up his own. In the context of the prequels, it would make sense why the Jedi wouldn't use this ability because their corrupted philosophy would've said "It is counter-productive if you give up your own life because then there is less Jedi, so just accept that people will die and become one with the force."
Believe me, that's the ONLY time I'll defend Episode IX because everything else about it truly is awful (especially Palpatine)
So you’re gonna tell me that if not THE most, one of the most important abilities was just not passed down and forgot by the Jedi and only in sacred texts? And then Rey just happens to learn it and kylo subsequently learns it bc Dyad (which is just the ability to save anything from being a plot hole)? Just because there’s an explanation - which is that it’s in the sacred texts or whatever- that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t create plot holes and that doesn’t mean that it isn’t absolutely stupid. “Palpatine did die and he was cloned so Anakin did bring balance!” No because palpatine essentially wasn’t fully destroyed and went on to corrupt another skywalker - another prime example of something with an explanation still being incredibly stupid.
Geralt of Trivia funny because baby yoda doing it is absolutely stupid as well. All you did was further support my point. Did the force stop Luke from losing his hand and losing the fight to darth Vader? Did the force save Anakin from getting his limbs cut off? No. The force in general is not plot armor except when it’s used in the sequels. In the prequels it was a tool that enhanced everything and had logic, it took training. So you’re gonna tell me, Rey, a scavenger, a nobody just figured out how to do force healing when the CHOSEN ONE couldn’t? When the entirety of the Jedi order couldn’t? Yeah that makes sense. Also it doesn’t matter if you think that the chosen one is over used, it’s established canon and when you bring things up to destroy the established universe rules it makes the story boring and less important. Luke had 3 years of training just to even learn how to force pull so i don’t know how you’re going to use that as a point?
Geralt of Trivia Geralt of Trivia what’s to stop palpatine from coming back now? How do you know he didn’t learn an ability to exist only as a consciousness until he found a vessel to possess? How do we know that can’t happen in episode 10? If his literal offspring learned how to force heal then it’s not impossible that he learned to preserve his consciousness?
Geralt of Trivia I actually find nothing wrong with force telepathy. That being able to communicate through the force like they did in ESB. My problem is the fact that the way that a Dyad is being used solely for the fact to give an explanation to how Rey is able to be so powerful with the force out of nowhere. Honestly the idea of a Dyad sounds cool. But when it allows you to tap in to people’s mind and literally download their training. That’s just dumb and lazy writing and i find it incredibly stupid. It feels like they’re slapping me in the face saying “see there’s an explanation!! Because Dyad she’s powerful!!”
The problem is with the execution and things like that, that are added in there.
“I am defenseless” - “unlimited power out of nowhere” alright so are you referencing ROTS or ROTJ because he says defenseless in ROTJ and unlimited power in ROTS.
If you’re trying to talk about ROTS it’s incredibly obvious he’s giving Anakin a chance to save him and also show how hypocritical the Jedi are. Anakin even said himself killing dooku wasn’t the Jedi way.
In ROTJ he tells Luke to take his weapon and strike him down as he is defenseless (no verbatim but that’s pretty much it).
It’s also obvious that he knows Vader is gonna come in. He most likely knows Vader doesn’t want his son turning to the dark side but he figures when they fight, if Luke wins he will have won through anger and pledge himself to him.
“More like taking away any and all mystique”
I mean sure let’s argue about midichlorians.
That’s not at all what i was talking about and you just brought that up out of nowhere but sure whatever. I think the IDEA of it is good. Poorly executed and i don’t like he definition.
I like the idea that you must be born with the ability of being a force sensitive, not the microscopic bacteria that form a symbiotic whatever that allow you to utilize the force.
The sequels in no way at all make it tie more in to feelings, maybe you’re interpreting it that way but no, they don’t.
Rey is literally the most impulsive person throughout the sequels and she’s always fighting angrily. No dark side turn? Because that’s kind of what happens when you fight with hate and are very impulsive.
Rey is a descendant of palpatine, kylo is a descendant of leia- those are blood ties meaning they’re gonna have a high enough midichlorian count in order to use the force, please point me out where in the sequels it does make it about instinct and belief.
Even so, the whole “belief” thing. That’s so freaking stupid. Now when it’s something like Luke not being able to lift the X wing because of belief, that’s where i bet you’ll try to argue.
It’s because he doesn’t believe it’s possible and he’s limiting his mind.
But what the sequels apparently try to say is since she believed hard enough she won!!
Yeah woohoo!! We just needed to believe hard enough!. That’s stupid.
-applying logic to starwars- why didn’t Anakin just regrow his limbs? Why didn’t palpatine blow up planets with his mind? - that’s why you have to apply logic to these films. If you don’t then literally anything can happen. Why don’t they just not die from lightsaber wounds? Logic.
Luke deflecting bolts-
He fails miserably the first few times.
Obi wan teaches him a lesson that his eyes deceive him and to use his feelings. Literally teaching him how to use the force for the first time. He then hits a few blaster bolts. That’s not really that hard considering that’s one of the first things younglings learn how to do? It’s not like right after that Luke went on to deflect a whole unit of stormtrooper blaster bolts and deflect it to kill them.
Oh so i destroyed the sequels message of not having to be some big wigs descendant?
Have you seen the prequels? When that was kind of already implied? Considering the thousands of Jedi that existed? Or Anakin? Who was a nobody? Who was a slave? Alright, i didn’t know that that was only a thing in the sequels.
But wait........didn’t Rey apparently turn out to be a palpatine? So looks like she was never nobody all along! (Even though that was never the real plan and JJ just needed a big bad since rian fucked up)
“Ignore her instructure from 3 different force knowers” She didn’t even train until TLJ and if you watch- she’s there for 2 days and 2 nights and she gets 3 lessons..... and she literally disarms Luke skywalker......THATS just ridiculous. Leia doesn’t teach her anything until after TLJ.
Ok tell me how she’s able to mind trick in TFA before learning anything? Oh that’s right the Dyad! She downloaded his training. Of course that’s super exiting and not lazy writing.
“Please tell me why the force can’t choose another champion”, and also your point on the prophecy being nonexistent.
George Lucas. The creator of the universe himself said that the story was about Anakin skywalker. George Lucas. The creator of the universe himself said the chosen one was Anakin and that he fulfilled the prophecy when he destroyed palpatine.
In the PT they questioned wether or not they read it right, probably not knowing that in the process the entire order would be wiped out.
Obi wan doesn’t believe it anymore because how could he after he turns to the dark side? Of course he won’t believe it anymore.
So already you’re wrong right there. There’s nothing you can say that can change that. George’s word is final in my book. I don’t care about Disney.
The force shouldn’t have to choose a new champion because Anakin was THE chosen one.
But the new movies basically take a dump on all of that.
It’s widely known that 3 years pass between ANH and ESB. Look it up if you want.
Also without looking it up, it’s obvious there’s been quite some time considering Han is now a general in the rebellion.
Luke literally saw his lightsaber and was pulling it he didn’t “sense it was there”
And yes. I’m very pissed about baby yoda being able to do all of that. But that doesn’t excuse the sequels.
My big gripe about that is that with the sequels it continues the main story line. The big plot of the entire universe.
The mandolorian isn’t something that takes as much stake in the state of the SW universe as the sequels do.
I was excited for the mandolorian because it was different. I thought it was going to be about a bounty hunter messing shit up and collecting bounties. But now it’s a babysitting mission with a giant plot hole.
Why should i care about Rey? The sequels took all my favorite heroes and made them in to failures. The entirety of the OT was pointless. No chosen one prophecy fulfilled. Luke wasn’t successful destroying the empire since it was just rebuilt and waiting for 40 years. Luke wasn’t successful in creating a new order.
Then someone with no relevance comes in, downloads training into her mind, beats up Luke skywalker after 3 lessons then destroys the big bad guy that Anakin didn’t even destroy?
Yes obviously i hate that.
Geralt of Trivia also it’s a valid question to raise considering the entire point of ROTJ was palpatines demise, then because JJ needs a big bad guy and a reason for reys lineage he’s brought back to life? Ok, so now that we’ve introduced the fact that he cloned himself and can transfer his mind, how do we know he just don’t do it again? This is an extremely valid suspicion considering he’s been the big bad guy for 9 films. Yeah they screwed up because they didn’t plan anything out and are terrible at writing.
What’s the song at the end?
Pixies - Where is my mind
Regarding force heal: This HAS existed in the Star Wars universe for a long time within the EU/Legends material.
great video
Thank you!
i still cant get over how poor the sequel trilogy is.
@Geralt of Trivia the thing is I can count the prequels as noncannon as they dont affect the originals as badly, but the sequels involve the characters from the ot so its worse, but yeah they are better than the prequels.
@Geralt of Trivia yeah but they have their backstory in the pt, i dont really care about their backstories so i can disassociate it. ST meanwhile continues lukes story and he was the central character lol
fair point laddie. didnt think about that, still i think we can agree both the pt and st are not good
@Geralt of Trivia i like rian johnson films mostly and he made great episodes of breaking bad, but i think he is a terrible fit for a sequel, he basically made his own film and disregarded tfa. This doesnt make him a bad director/writer just the wrong choice for a sequel (maybe a spinoff series would be good).
@Geralt of Trivia ill agree to disagree with you, but these are some good points brought up. thanks for the conversation my man.
this really makes me think about halo infinite and cortana. how will they handle her? will we see the original cortana again? i remember it being confirmed that the cortana in halo 5 was just fraction of her or some shit. on one hand, it would suck to bring *our* cortana back in halo infinite since it would take away the impact of her death in halo 4. on the other hand, its weird to think that the original cortana wont make some sort of cameo when her mad clone is about to take over the galaxy. cortana will be a big topic in halo infinite and im curious but also really afraid of how they will handle all of this. dang, screw this stupid "cortana comes back and becomes queen of the galaxy"-premise in the first place, lol
Many good stories actually are based on coincidences
yeah true
The Rise Of Skywalker is kinda depressing. it's entire purpose is to negate the plot already set up and cater to people with a hate-boner for The Last Jedi. Fittingly, most people across the board agree that ROS sucks. I liked it when I first saw it, but the more I think about it the more I dislike it now.
Everyone knows that JJ Abrams has a "puzzle box" philosophy for his directing. This is based off a real puzzle box he owns: an intentionally crafted experience, where every piece contributes to the big picture, and there's and it all comes together for anybody who puts in the time to complete it.
The twist is, he's never opened it. He claims choice rather than inability. He thinks it's a thrill to have, something more of a Schrödinger's Box really, limitless potential and imagination and all that.
I think this is totally valid. Art can be ambiguous, it should provoke meaningful thoughts and make you ask questions it shouldn't provide all the answers to.
The problem lies in the fact that even within the fragments of the story that are necessary to make the work complete, JJ doesn't have enough to show. He throws out half-formed ideas and makes up the rest of it as he goes along.
Rian Johnson picked up on this Chinese Whispers method to the storytelling and ran with it. TLJ ain't perfect, but it's enjoyable as heck and has a clear vision that continues what TFA set up.
Rian set up that the Big Bad was dead, and the troubled villain was continuing his role out of choice, rather than peer pressure or playing the long game to help the heroes. He proposed that we need the fresh eyes, minds and spirits of future generations to pick up the legacy of the past. He argues that we make our destiny for ourselves, even if you're a nobody born or raised in the dirt.
Then JJ got the reins back. He could have continued a story with these character conflicts and the new horizons that were set up. Instead, he revealed himself as a hypocrite to his philosophy, and made a whole movie about whining and backpedalling on the previous film so he could focus on his original derivative ideas.
Instead of accepting that the burden of whether the Jedi should survive is no longer his, and he should trust the Padawan of the future to take that responsibility, Luke has to come back and tell Rey what to do. Rey isn't an insignificant scrap hunter who had to carve out her own destiny and chart her own moral path in the process, she's the grandkid of an all-powerful wizard emperor who becomes a vessel for All The Jedi.
Then of course there's the Emperor's return, irrelevant to the story as you can get, and the way his extremely overpowered and unexplained army is just shoehorned in there.
The bit that pissed me off the most was the retcon to Rey's backstory. Despite Rey confirming in her own words that her parents were contemptible drunk slavers, the movie has the audacity to say that they were a pair of doting goody-two-shoes, who sold their own daughter "to protect her". That, to me, is the tipping point that makes me lose my shit, it's such a consciously narcissistic and awful writing choice on so many levels.
Again, I liked it when I first saw it. Pretty film. I love Babu Frik. But as easily satisfied as I am with dumb shlock, this movie was absolutely a bridge too far. JJ needs to get his shit together
Good review. I will say that JJ is a very talented director, it mainly comes down to either the script or most likely the people who give the green light to certain decisions over at Disney
That0therGeorge I mean, I don’t think he’s terrible. I liked The Force Awakens fine. He’s involved in some really good films like 10 Cloverfield Lane. The guy just needs to hold himself to a higher standard and actually plan to finish the stories he starts
TheTinFoilHatter TLJ was terrible for many many reasons and it’s “themes” fall severely short.
People say it’s about failure- Rey doesn’t fail at anything and the resistance is saved.
People say it’s about anyone can be special-
That’s established in the prequels by the fact that there’s thousands of Jedi
I’m sorry but you’re wrong about these things
“We need fresh eyes and minds and spirits to pick up the legacy of the past”
Have you even seen the OT? Luke literally was a fresh eye, mind, spirit. He had attachments, he saved people he loved rather than staying to finish his training, he believed his father could be turned back to the light
^ these are all things the Jedi order wouldn’t have done, but Luke did because he had a different outlook. It’s like everyone forgets about this. This has already been established.
“He argues we make our destiny for ourselves even if you’re a nobody born or raised in the dirt”
Have you seen the prequels? There’s literally thousands of Jedi that were nobody’s. Anakin skywalker was literally a nobody. He was a slave.
@@Johnhenry34869 I never talked shit about those movies? It's good that they have the same themes. Rey is a nobody like Anakin, who has to fight off temptation and believe her allies are worth saving. Kylo is a family man like Luke, except he rejects his destiny to save the day.
The only thing I really hate about TLJ is that there's no story arc in this trilogy. JJ gave Rian free reign to continue the story in any direction he wanted, and then when the third director signed off he swooped back in to frankenstein a movie out of angry CZcams comments he'd seen.
If JJ wanted Rian to keep a very specific series of plot points intact for the story arc he had planned all along, he shoulda said that at the time. It's his fault ROS is gibberish because he directed it.
Regardless, in the inevitable next batch of movies Disney spits out, they need to lay down some ground rules like they do with Marvel to make sure they all tie together.
TheTinFoilHatter did you even read my comment? I never said you talked shit about those movies. You stated that Rian introduced those things in TLJ when it reality they were already introduced in previous films.
4:35-4:50 Actually, no offense, but using that clip from The Empire Strikes Back is misleading (also it's my favorite bit of Hamill's acting in Star Wars). Luke is terrified and beat down from Vader, both physically and mentally. He is also in shock and aware of Vader's role and connection to him. He is also contemplating that Obi-wan lied to him and why Obi-wan didn't tell him. His thoughts ARE NOWHERE NEAR thinking, "Oh, I should save my father". That's a Return of the Jedi idea. To be fair, it doesn't make sense either (unless Luke is being selfish towards his friends and the rebellion, he ditches them on Endor after all), which is why I don't buy Luke desperately trying to save Vader from the dark side. A lot of SW fans hinge on ROTJ's heroism by trying to save his father, but it contradicts the sheer emotion and horror of Luke towards Vader after recovering on the Falcon at TESB's ending; Luke accepts Vader as his father in TESB (not in ROTJ, as Vader in ROTJ claims), and he is completely horrified by it. Also, there is little reason to save Vader after what Vader has done (which is part of the reason, I would assume, why Luke is horrified when Vader reveals his connection to Luke and afterwards).
All this value place don "Consequences" is exactly one of the things I've come to reject, and it's part of what I love about Anime so much.
In Spider-Man 3 it is still made clear Ben's death was the result of Peter letting that one crook go.
Anakin died saving his Son, the idea that his redemption was predicate don killing someone is what I find offensive to value I hold.
I don't give a damn about "stakes", is Chronicles of Narnia a cheap cop out because Aslan didn't stay dead?
I HATE!!! Logan endlessly, it's a needlessly nihilistic film that kills of Mutant kind just so it can have a dark depressing final Wolverine movie. It is the antithesis of everything I want from fiction.
Yeah! Who actually Cares for this western Hollywood garbage thats all about “actions have consequences” anyway? All I need to be satisfied is my petite 500 year old dragon hokage/maid ‘tig bitty’ waifu Body Pillow® and some Sailor Moon DVD’s to binge, not this “MorAlitY” junk these uncultured swine cherish so blindly! I swear sometimes it’s just too much cringe to bear...