Turntable dust cover: Open, closed, or removed while playing?
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
- Many audiophiles and turntable manufacturers claim that leaving the dust cover open while playing a record, or preferably removing it entirely, will reduce the amount of resonance picked up by the stylus and produce better sound quality than having it closed while playing. But is there any truth to these claims? Let's do some tests and try to find out!
Time flow:
0:00 Introduction
1:34 Why closed?
2:35 Why open/removed?
3:52 Test setup
4:45 Tapping test
6:23 Speakers on table
8:45 Speakers on pads
10:20 Test results
11:17 Direct comparison
13:02 Conclusion
The 45 I played is "The Winning Lion (It's Time to Go)" by the Winning Lion.
In case you want to do your own detailed comparison of the full song, I uploaded the following unlisted videos:
Dust cover closed:
• Comparison test: Dust ...
Dust cover open:
• Comparison test: Dust ...
Dust cover removed:
• Comparison test: Dust ...
#vinyl #turntable #audiophile - Věda a technologie
you need to put the thing inside a vacuum chamber to isolate it from any vibration coming from the air that could distort the purest analog sound coming from the mp3 file used to create the record.
Also make sure the vacuum pump has a gold plated plug.
@@Carson_Neiss and gold-plated dampeners in the chamber to stop the pump’s own vibrations getting in! lol
It might be my speaker setup or room acoustics, but if I leave the dust cover open, the bass feeds back into the record and stylus and I get a horrible feedback rumble. It goes away when I close the cover or turn down the bass.
vacuum chamber not required. - damping materials that cancel out the lower frequencies is easy. Those with the Turntable in the middle of two speakers on a table don't help matters much.
Don't forget your anti-EMF black box generator to trap all the nasty waves
Every real audiophile knows that enthusiast grade vintage gold doped polymer analog dust covers increase warmth by 1-2% depending on your proximity to the equator and the phase of the moon.
That vintage Technics dust cover really warmed Goldwater up, almost made him sound human.
Getting political? Don't even go there into that quicksand for you!
I would love a record players for dummies video in the same vein as cassette decks for dummies.
those dummy books are for dummies tho.
This is why science and experimental design is important. The audio industry is rife with wildly absurd claims regarding sound quality that usually cannot be confirmed with test equipment or blind listening tests.
Great video! I was always a believer in the removal of the dust-cover during playback. In may of this year we adopted two young cats, and the 1 yr old male is very active, curious, and notices any movement...of anything, and so I began leaving the dust-cover on during playback to ensure that he couldnt jump onto the platter! After a few months of playback, it occurred to me that I couldn't notice a difference between playing a record with, or without, the dust-cover.
Kind of reminds me of when I was very young, my brother had his record player on his bed, listening to something, I walked in an set next to it - there were not any other seating options in there so I always sat on his bed. didn't give it a second thought. Unfortunately the bed was way too soft, and his record player kind of folded into my side, I might as well had just sat directly onto of it - same outcome.
he was not happy.
At least I didn't destroy it - that came another day (joint effort)
Try setting your stylus onto the speaker cone, that is powered by that record player.....
Among other pre teenage 'audio experiments'
I sometimes left the cover ajar just because it was a little easier, but that stopped immediately once I got cats.
Once again, you’ve proven all those “audiophiles” wrong! Excellent work as always, Kevin!!!
many 'audiophiles' could more accurately described as 'audiophools'
@@andygozzo72 Exactly!!!
@@andygozzo72 With far more money than brain cells.
@@IntegerOfDoom in many cases, seems so , eg. 'cryogenically treated fuses' ..😲 seriously?!!😲
"audiophiles use music to listen to their audio equipment"
You truly are the Mythbuster of audio equipment. I have actually done these kind of tests before since I record a lot of vinyl to audio files. At first I let the dust cover down as I thought it would servce as exterior sound insulation. But noticing the vibrations done by the dust cover itself, I left it open. With little improvement, I took it off, turned down the volume of my speakers to a minimum, close all the windows so there won't be any exterior noise pickup (I once recorded a chopper's loud engine noise from my turntable once), seems to be the best way. But you actually record the process and showed it to us. Many thanks.
I usually record (digitise) with the lid down, usually there is enough time in the run-in grove to see the end of any 'bong' etc before the first track starts. As for speakers, I run them at minimum, or not at all, just relying on VU meters and needle talk to let me know how it's proceeding.
VWestlife videos have become a video analog to comfort food to me. I love it when there's a new one out.
2 weeks ago I went to my first "audiophile fair" where they displayed obscenely expensive audio equipment ranging from cables that were as thick as firehoses, to gargantuan speakers whose tweeters had a range of up to 155 Khz. Amazingly and invariably, the music they played was "easy" to reproduce and impress people: classical, old blues consisting of a singer and guitar, jazz, or piano music. Those are fine genres for people that are into that - and I assume many are, as they were in my age range: 40s-60s. However, I didn't see any young people, except for a few salespersons, being there as possible consumers. I would have liked to hear rock music as it's the type I listen to, but it was invariably avoided. Even music that contained drums and electric guitars were avoided, for example: They played the first track of the Alan Parsons Project album "I Robot", on vinyl, on one of those very expensive stereos. However they quickly removed the needle before it went into a more "disco" track "I Wouldn't Want To Be Like You", which I wondered HOW it would sound like on that type of equipment, and they switched to some zen type music that didn't pose a challenge to the equipment on display. Therefore I feel that the whole thing is basically a sleight of hand card trick: Audio-foolery. And if this isn't enough, people my age (58) can no longer hear the super high frequencies provided by the out of my range price 155Khz tweeter, or beyond a tenth (15,5 Khz) of that wonderful range. It's beautiful equipment, and very impressive but I doubt the benefits would be so overwhelming, the cost would be justified. I did score a nice discount on a magnetic cartridge though. As far as the claim about the cover, on or off - audio foolery.
I'm 41, and I do love jazz, classical, and folk music. But I also really love metal, hip-hop, and many other genres that have a little more thump. I just use a good pair of headphones. Opeth's Blackwater Park sounds amazing, and they're waaaaay less expensive than a high end sound system. APP's Tales of Mystery and Imagination sounds MASSIVE on my headphones. As to the dust cover, I've tried it both ways and never noticed a difference. Plus cats.
As a cat-owner, you have made it abundantly clear that if I get into records, I need to venerate the dust cover.
Rest assured...your cat WILL find a way to get that dust cover open.
Why do people who play records even have cats? The best answer to that question is to have a dog instead. 👍
@ModMokkaMatti Yeah, but then you have the whole "dog waking you up at 4:00 AM because it urgently has to take a dump" or "barking at something it hears in the next county that you have no idea what it is." There's disadvantages on either side. But yeah, a cat can mess up your turntable. Maybe just go high-end digital?
@@baldevis the best answer to that question is to have a parrot instead. It sits in the cage and when the song is good, it sings along with it. When you are lucky the parrot can remember the song and sing it for you, which reduces the wear and tear of the needle. Just listen the recordings from your parrot.
@@baldevis man I’m not altering my preferences for furry companions just because I collect silly plastic.
Interesting results. Ultimately I think avoiding wear on vinyls should be the highest priority especially with older ones, so having a dust cover for those should be a no brainer IMO. Unless you have your speakers right behind the turntable I can't imagine the effect on sound being different enough to make a difference. The way I see it, if I need a side-by-side to be able to tell, it doesn't really matter. Good video.
Vinyls?
@@stepheng8779 vinyuhls.
@Zunnen Dokus Or the chair he's sitting in for the outfit he was wearing whilst he typed this.
to go one way or another, you'd need to test does it pick up more speaker noise with it down or not on the specific player. it does act as an isolator. anyway if going full gung ho about it, you'd have to put a muffler hat on the player, no?
Rip your vinyls to something lossless, make backups and then listen to them in the same quality forever
I really like the logic behind your set-up of the experiments. Difficult to argue against.
With vertical turntables (like Technics SL-V5 linear tracking) the disc was inside the device during playback (like a CD player), so we already knew at that time that there was no risk for audio quality to close the dust cover.
Exactly, no one would even consider making a linear tracker if the dust cover was so detrimental.
Yup, also need to have the dust cover closed on a Technics SL-QL15 in order for it to play.
I have the Technics SL-J1 and J2, they have the tracking arm inside the dust cover
the result is what I expected from the start. I didn't know there were people saying a removed or opened dust cover would be beneficial.
I don't know if you ever gonna read this, but i love the fact that you use old hd camcorders to film your videos, you always talk about old stuff, that cromatic aberration and flare from the lens, really suits the situation 👌🏻
It's always a treat when you upload a video. The only thing I would change in the experiment are the speakers. I'd try this with larger standmounts or floorstanders and play a bass heavy track. I'd think large amount of low frequency noise, played at higher levels, would have the most effect on the cart. Either way, seems having that lid open is the worst of all 3 options. Also, that SLQD33 was my first turntable! I always took the lid off it because I thought it looked cooler with it off. No flying cats in my house though.
Agreed. This would produce a concerning rumble, not good for speaker components or clarity. Thankfully, we have subsonic filters that may help the dangerous aspect of this low rumble from loud drivers. Having the TT in a spot where the Bass is weaker (furthest from the sweet spot) will also help if you aren't like me and have a small seperate room (and 5m long interconnects) adjacent to the listening space.
You've been crushing it with videos lately! This and the recent Realistic Minisette review were truly excellent. Kudos!
Thanks for including the name of the 45 in the description! Nice sound
I can’t believe it has taken this long for someone to do a simple experiment such as this. I would like to have heard something like Daft Punk on the CD to see if that contributed to background noise.
Bless you Kev for answering questions I didn't know I had.
Great test. I always leave the lid closed if I can. We've always had cats, and there's nothing they like more than playing with the arm or chasing a colourful record lable. :)
The manual for the Technics SL-1200 says only this: "Opening or closing of the dust cover during play should be avoided. This may not only cause undesired vibrations, but may also cause skipping of the stylus. If you must open the dust cover during play, do so as gently as possible." So the *assumption* is that you'd be playing with the dust cover on and closed. They only even need to add a note for the event that you *don't* do that, but they don't even see a need to tell you to leave it on and closed. It's just assumed. And that is how it always was when I was growing up. I don't know when this myth started up that you should have the dust cover open or removed. It is disappointing to see a manufacturer like Fluance, who actually make the only turntables I've personally tested that come close to matching the performance of mid to high-end vintage models (and for pretty cheap!), fall prey to this myth too. I'd actually expect it from a company like Pro-Ject, who are basically like conspiracy theorists when it comes to perpetuating modern audiophile myths despite their turntables not actually performing that well in objective tests.
What the heck?! A Jeremy Heiden record? The company I work for just designed his record label website! We were all gifted that exact album (picture disk in the intro). Crazy to see that on one of my fav channels!
This video changed my life. We have a nice vintage Kenwood setup near a big speaker. When I play at louder volumes a low feedback hum develops. I can turn down the bass to make it go away, but that's not always desirable. I always assumed keeping the lid closed would shield the sound waves. I just tried taking the lid off and no more low hum! Tried lid cracked open too and off was better. It definitely depends on one's set up, but now I know the huge difference! Experimenting is worth it. Thanks!
I have always left the dust cover down. I tried it up a few times and could not hear a difference. Thanks for taking the time to properly test this. I always figured my equipment was just too entry level to pick up all this extra noise. I can definitely hear the dust though.
I'd always been told that the rotating record can create a vortex effect that draws dust towards it while playing; hence the need to close the lid. Older solid-state amps used to have rumble filters for motor noise and parasitic vibrations from the cover. The problem I have is that when the bias on my KT-88 power tubes start to drift, the tubes can become microphonic.
Thank you for another video 👌 Keep up the good work.
I remember record players had the lid for opening and closing. I used to have a record changer that has a lid and does the job. GE Wildcat also has no lid, it closed like a brief case. And when you open it, the record changer swings down. The GE Swingmate has the same changer than the one in the Wildcat. It only plays 45’s when you close the lid when it was on a 7” record, but the 12” 33 and 10” 78 record doesn’t close the lid. Many different brands from the 1970’s like Realistic by Radio Shack, Soundesign, Fisher, BSR, Panasonic, Longines Symphonette and other companies also made record changers with the lid where you can lift it up and close it down while playing a record or operating the changer automatically.
Thank you for this video. It baffles me when audiophiles say take it off. Like they can tell if it on or not when a record is playing. Kinda like they knew MOFI albums were all analog until they found out they were not.
Thanks for the video, Kevin.
That Technics turntable is absolutely gorgeous…. Cool video!
Glad you like the model QD33 as I bought mine new in 1991 as a backup to my much older Dual 1229 also bought new in 1974. I felt that the Technics looked & felt (to the touch) like a cheap toy compared to the build quality of the German made Dual. I guess you could say I prefer the Dual but it is not by an means a low maintenance machine & that's its main drawback. As for the Technics QD33 which is Direct Drive I bought that because I hoped it would be low maintenance but being that it's fully automatic that alone could cause problems. I would have preferred a fully manual version of the QD33 but Sears only had that model available.
thankyou kermit... helpful video
Good editing on the 45 test! I always kept the cover closed back when I played a lot of records and my personal experience echos your results. When I play one now I use a 1958 turntable in a cabinet built by my grandfather and keeping the cover closed isn't practical.
Whoo boy! I wonder what companies like Fluance will think about my favourite AM/FM, mono radiogram from the late 70s, with it's beautiful, smoky dust cover. The record player on that thing sits right above the speaker. When I close the cover it acts like an awesome resonator, massively increasing the bass response of the whole cabinet, and I have a feeling it has been designed that way. I've also never had any problems with feedback. I've fitted it with a new chinese red cartridge and it sounds fine regardless of volume.
Great video West
Standing (bass) waves can hit the resonant frequency of the hood and cause the turntable to oscillate. So, it's a question of music, volume and spatial conditions. I have experienced several times in my life, that a closed hood produced a feedback-like hum. The information provided by the manufacturers is therefore not completely unrealistic.
I agree! It really depends on the music being played and how it was recorded. I find that if you are wanted to record an archive copy, it's best not to take any chances and record with the dust cover completely removed. If just playing casually to listen, playing with the cover closed would likely be ok most of the time.
@@2muchrubik If you are making a archival copy it would make much more sense to have the speakers turned all the way down. I think it's pretty obvious that the cover down will be best since it will block out most of the sound in the room.
Interesting, in my case I’d get the humming feedback with the cover open, and it’d go away as soon as I closed it
@@2muchrubik For archive copies, I remove external noises and turn down the speakers, however the lid stays down, I have enough dust as it is.
THANK YOU. I always kept it closed to muffle the needle talk, which near the turntable could be very annoying.
Interestingly some of the best TT (and expensive) needed the lid down to work. Linear track TT. I always played my record players with lid down because I could hear the scratchy noise of the needle and the sound from the speakers did not sound different up or down. so down it is. Thanks for answering the question.
Great video!
Your findings match with my personal experience.
I’ve always kept the dust cover closed while playing records since it makes the perfect resting place for the sleeve, even if it covers up the view.
Nice to learn that leaving the cover on, despite going against the grain of what the turntable companies say, doesn’t create any meaningful difference in sound quality.
With the album cover on the lid, it's unlikely to resonate. The only resonance left would be the air cavity.
Back in the day (mid 80s into the 90s) when I had a succession of turntables, the only thing I ever noticed was the "boomph" sound of closing the lid when you were playing. Maybe occasionally some other sharp noise would get telegraphed by the cover lid being down, but really it was negligible.
Back when I made A LOT of mix tapes from records, I never had the cover lid down. I only closed the lid when I WASN'T playing a record.
Over the years I have come to think that the so-called "warmth" of vinyl comes down to the limitations of the format. People hearing their favorite LPs on a compact disk were just missing the various audio artifacts introduced by scraping a stylus through a groove. (plus whatever that lid did or didn't do)
Very interesting video, as always! I usually have the dust cover closed on my more "modern" turntables. Since some of my older DUAL turntables have no hinges at all, I tend to take the cover completely off while using it. I noticed a clearly audible amount of motor noise / vibration when I had the dust cover on my trusty old DUAL 1019 while playing. I must admit that the motor on that DUAL probably was probably in need of lubrification (apart from this the idler wheels are sometimes noisy as well) and I did not notice a similar effect on my other direct drive or belt driven turntables yet.
I have 3 different (but similar) DUAL turntables from around the 70s. And they seem to be much better isolated from their housing than the player in the video- they all are mounted with 4 giant springs in their housing- so I can tab on the cover as much as I want, it isn't audible at all. My favorite Cover is one that has a hatch in the front so you don't have to completely open it at all- especially useful in a shelve.
Very good demo and I tend to agree with you. My two cents: to be sure you have the best sound, like in the case of recording from a turntable to a tape or digital, it is best to have the cover off, don't play any of the sound near the unit or other noises and stay away from it.
I had a belt drive turntable I used for many years, and my thing back in the 1980's was to record off the record and play the tape as to not wear out the record as well as you can't play a record in the car very easily. Well I had a strange problem and went to the dealer about it. I was getting random wow and flutter on my recordings off the turntable, and it was not my tape deck. Well that turntable used a pulley system on the motor that kept the belt away from the edge of the motor pulley by it being more bulged in the middle, so if I would walk across the room or by the turntable any effect of me near it would make the belt track a little high or a little low giving this the wow effect. Solution was put a shelf on the wall and put the turntable on it.he wall
I've done those tests before, but not with the type of recording equipment shown here, just by making cassette recordings of the record. I've have had similar results. The problem seems to be the plinth design and material. If the plinth was damped in some way, almost all of those externals, should in fact be eliminated. Thank you for your demonstration. Your videos always amaze me and are quite enjoyable to watch.
it was a question That I ask myself when I read the Fluance manual. this video is the total awnser.
leave the dust cover closed ! thank you for the video.
also depending on the frequency response of the lid.. it will be different than most plinths..that can trigger a resonant feedback if the music suddenly has this frequency peak that it may pick up and then travel into the table - usually a plinth would have a different response more dense. Other factors are speaker placement and how much power you're running.
Hi Kevin on my Pro-Ject Debut Carbon MSL turntable I get a slight feedback noise playing records with the dust cover closed. Playing records with it open results in no feedback noise. Excellent video as always.
In the early 80'S when hi fi was really at it's peak with large powerful speakers, I had problems playing bassy rock and roll at a loud volume with the dust cover down. The bass would inject a feedback into the stylus that would grow into a wicked rumble...until I opened the cover.
I once had feedback with the cover down, because I was playing it so loud my ears nearly bled! Seriously though, it's silly issues like this that are why the industry moved to digital. I love my record collection, but I am under no illusion that they sound better than a modern digital recording provided on lossless high resolution audio.
I own a mid 1960s Zenith 2G Record Changer that I pulled from an old console and had a woodworking friend of mine build a plinth for it that I use for my stereo system setup. IMO the Zenith 2G record changer was the best record changer made in the history of record changers. It actually does a really good job of playing records of all kinds with minimal wear.
Mythbuster VWestlife 😉👍 Again, nice subject. I think the noise can be worse with an AC motor instead of a DC motor. An AC motor can introduce noise known as 'rumble' and is a constant frequency. Any noise, shock etc extend the amplitude of the 'rumble'. It is possible that an AC-motor model is more sensitive to extra noise. Maybe you have to try this theory to find out if this can be true.
I'm a pro dust cover close and it protects the needle too glad to get a video Kevin this week. I don't even know why some saying removing dust cover can be better lol...
Interesting result!
I can understand the appeal behind the theory that a closed dust cover might act as a resonating cavity and couple vibrations to the stylus. Thing is, the record player itself is already a (mostly) empty box with the potential to do the same thing!
That said, the standard dust cover seems to be designed in just about the worst way possible in terms of picking up unwanted vibrations, they're almost like bells. Scope in the market for audiophile-grade heavy rubber dust covers?
Or extra thick glass ones?, they put a lot of research into non-resonant turntable platters, why stop there, do the same to the lid, then you can kind of play your vinyls in an isolation chamber.
('vinyls' because someone picked it up in someone else's post, and I like to stir)
I always played my albums with the dust cover closed and if you're playing music so loud that it gets picked up by the sylus - it's unlikely you'll even hear that bit of pickup - I never did. The biggest thing was to position the speakers some distance from the turntable (and audio rack) and the vibrations from heavy bass music were dampened by the turntable feet. Most times speakers would be positioned in corners or against walls of the room which would "amplify" their response. (corners by at least double that of a flat wall, if I remember the equations from the acoustics course I took in college) :) Thanks always for great videos!
I seem to recall that my old Rega's manual said 'Closed' - I think it was simply to minimse the shift in weight towards the rear (single) leg and keep the deck level
Another informative topic - thank you. Your results echo (pun intended) my own with a Marantz TT 1080 direct drive turntable (circa '85) and Bang & Olufsen MMC 20E cartridge. I always play records with the dust cover closed. I've long thought that the mass of the closed cover both shielded the cartridge from sound (and dust) damped external sound. My speakers are placed several metres from the turntable. The increased mass, however slight, might be a factor because the cartridge is only tracking at 1.5 gram
I have a Technics SP-25 and a Technics SL-1800mk2. Both have a very heavy plinth and were removed from radio stations. The plinth on each turntable can be tapped on without hearing a thing, neither have dust covers. Both employ the same cartridge an Audio Technica D-79 (I believe) as well as a conical Stanton 500 (for back cueing). Both have a carbon/graphite tone arm and I have never gotten any acoustic feedback from either turntable, regardless of placement. Now I do have a Kenwood late manufacture linear tracking turntable that does suffer from acoustic feedback on my main stereo. But it takes a bunch to get it going, it does have a dust cover which I leave installed. It also has a much lighter plinth as well. I use this turntable to listen to favorite albums at levels that are fairly low, below 50 watts per channel. It sounds awesome. My Technics turntables can handle hundreds of watts of sound and not ever go into acoustic feedback. I use those turntables in my home production studio. I like the Technics for production because of the very low turntable noise and very heavy platters that keep speed very constant.
Thanks for a great presentation. I wonder if putting thin layers of acoustical foam inside and/or outside the dust cover would provide the best of both worlds? Thanks again!
I got some new furniture in my room, and because of it, my turntable -a Project X1- ended up on the same surface as the speakers, which introduced feedback unfortunately. Closing the lid made the feedback a lot less pronounced. I got IsoAcoustics speakerstands and turntable platform to isolate everything, and that got rid of the feedback entirely.
Maybe a better test for feedback would be putting a microphone under the dust cover while it's playing and recording if the sound generated by the stylus is louder with or without the dust cover? Only real way I could think of to actually measure the resonance.
That was pretty neat, I watch CZcams on my tv with 5.1 surround sound and during the tapping test I heard the talking on the center speaker and the thumps came out of my back surround speakers. It felt like I was sitting inside the record player!
Nice ana!ysis, very nice! However, no stereo or audiophile dare have the turntable sitting on top of or have the speakers directly Infront of any speaker system as you have here. However, again, you addressed most all excellent points. Just need to add, I always play my vinyl with the dustcover closed. I've been playing vinyl since the early 60s! For those new to this medium, turntable electronics has come a long way since then.
Well, way back in the early '70s, I ran my Thorens TD-160 with an ADC XLM (original) tracking at 0.1 gram. The cartridge was rated at that low pressure (granted the extreme low) and just walking near the 'table would cause the stylus to skate across the record (nowadays called "the vinyl "). The dust cover was essential and there were felt pads glued to the front of the cover which I am sure damped the resonance of the plastic. Yeah, maybe the manufacturers of such high quality, huh, record players such as Fluance and Victrola want you to remove the dust covers... I will keep mine on just the same.
Young, dumb, and lucky. That's me. Moving into my first apartment, quite small, and simultaneously acquiring amazing JBL loudspeakers from the 70s, I had to be creative with my setup.
Turntable is on top of a steady shelf on carpet, preamp (valve) on a shelf below, interconnects running down and out of the room, into the lounge where my loudspeakers are. Turntable is safe and dampened, I always use the dustcover. Signal is clean, clear, and dynamic (AT LP5 / ATVM95SH / Project Tube Box S2 / JBL4311).
I shudder to know that there are people out there who actively stress about this myth and constantly fight dust, because "they're right, and everyone else is wrong".
Maybe if you have an unrealistically clean record you've played once a year, a multi-thousand dollar setup, and some expensive Audize cans, MAYBE you'll pick up a feint whisper of ghosting from the stylus, or, god forbid, loudspeakers placed next to and / or on the same surface of the turntable... If that's still somehow an issue for you, time to check your privilege, breath, and re-arrange your room. Subsonic filters also exist (usually integrated).
There's a reason why manufacturers usually list this notice, because they measure with good equipment, and can determine, yes, there is a microscopic difference in those measurements depending on the source environment. I'm sorry, but I'm 25, and even I know I'm not going to hear anything above 18-20Khz. Manufacturers just know, because their legal team would have chimed in, that some angsty audiophile will measure for themselves and try to cause trouble.
If you have the means to test this myth, do it! if not, don't stress about it (unless your speakers are sharing the same surface, then move them probably; even inaudible vibrations (through the perceptible signal) could maybe wear down grooves A BIT faster. Invest in a nice valve phono pre-amp, or a better shelf, make your own cables, I don't know, do anything but stress about removing the darned dust cover! I know vinyl is supposed to be immersive, but goodness you might as well use a solid gold vinyl weight to achieve "pure resonant stability" or whatever cooker nonsense wealthy people come up with.
Good video! I enjoyed this, none of the above was targeted at the OC, just a general addendum PSA.
Interesting how you find things a month later, but here we go. Very cool test! I have 3 cats, so I always play with a cover over the turntable. I never noticed anything problematic really. It is still funny to try to bust audiophile myths by testing fairly too really cheap stuff. Which will really never prove the point entirely. I do know that my old Technics SL-3100 was sensitive to tapping on the lid, but the Technics SL-1200GR wasn’t really. And my own cover isn’t attached to the turntable at all (it’s a 1965 Thorens TD-124, and the are no covers for it as far as I know). Still, I always preferred the lid closed with all turntables I had (in every price class), for precisely your arguments… Nice!
I had a situation where my Pioneer would feed back with a big low hum when played at higher volumes. This did not happen when cover was open.
I knew I had poor physical isolation between the tt and the speakers but just had to deal with it. I fixed that with new/soft feet on the tt.
Closed. Need a place to lay the album cover. It fits perfectly on top
My dad always closed his dust cover, unless he was specifically making a mix tape involving repeated manual track selection from the record(s). And he got his advice (such as which separates to buy) from my brother’s pal big into motorbikes and hifi. (He also set up our first computer.) So I was surprised it was even a debate!
There is a slight audible difference in down-up-off for my ears (closing my eyes to listen for differences), but it's honestly so subtle that it definitely won't make a difference when listening for enjoyment as opposed to scrutiny. What is clear is that cover up is just silly. I don't know why you would ever do that or why it would be recommended.
Great Video I have pretty come to the same results with my own testing, my turntable is connected to my home heater system so vibration is quite a problem so I have had to do a lot of experiments to lessen the vibrations from affecting the turntables in my setup. The subwoofers cause the most trouble but, at higher volumes the dust cover being open can cause trouble. However sometimes having it open can give you a fake stadium reverb LOL, if you wanna pretend you are at a concert play it with the lid open and the volume cranked but then again you could just buy a LIVE album XD. The rubber bits at the end of the dust cover do help as long as they are fresh on a lot of my vintage turntables they were petrified, bought some 3M tiny adhesive silicone feet and they do the job especially on turntables where it is impossible to completely remove the old pads do to rubber rot or impossible to fid replacements (at least without getting SCALPED)
Something else to consider is the way the turntable is designed. On some linear-tracking turntables (like Technics), the tonearm is attached to the lid / dust cover, and the only way to play the record is with the dust cover closed.
Also, some turntables (like vintage Bang & Olufsens) have a permanently attached dust cover (you need a screwdriver to remove it), so the only options are playing the record with the dust cover closed or open & attached. A lot of manufacturers also went to the effort to make most of the controls reachable even when the dust cover is closed, so it seems like they're not discouraging that.
Thanks for making this video! I always play my records under a closed lid and have done so for decades. I've always been sceptical about the 'microphony' claims. IMO protecting the record and the needle from dust and dirt does indeed far outweigh any (imaginary?) microphony, which in the end also benefits the sound. Seeing yet another needledrop video with the needle dragging around some random fluff regularly makes me cringe.
Regarding the lid kept open being worst, it seems obvious to me that the lid then acts as both a parabolic mirror that reflects sound waves towards the needle and a lever for all kinds of mechanical impact, which is then transfered via the plinth.
However, I'm afraid this video again won't help bolster your reputation in those vinylists' forums. The audiophile ecosystem does not run on logic, experimentation and proof, but is a closed belief system.
I totally agree with your closing summary; it's ok with the lid closed, but ultimately can be better with it completely removed! 🙂
However, I'm an owner of both Rega, and a ProJect (as mentioned in the video), and they both recommend removing the lid when playing records...fair enough...but do you know why? 🙋♂
It's because the motors used to drive the belts on these decks, are [nowadays] directly mounted to the underside of the MDF plinth board; and so when you switch it on and start the platter turning, the motor is pushing small and persistent vibrations into the MDF plinth.
With the plastic/acrylic lid closed (there are no rubber/silicone dampers fitted to the lid to decouple it from the plinth), the motor vibration noise is amplified by the plastic lid and can be heard clear across the room ; open or closed - and that's before you set the arm/stylus on the record!!!! 🫢 That's why they suggest that you remove the cover! 😂
As you showed, with the so-called 'lower quality' turntables, there is little issue! Because their motors, and lids/covers, are decoupled from the plinth/chassis by rubber/silicone grommets - exactly as they should be!! 👍
Interesting comment. So you're supposed to remove the lid (doing so every time is quite annoying, I presume) to fix shoddy manufactureing of the turntable. The Technics SL-QD33 is hardly 'lower quality' relative to curent entry-level Regas or Pro-Jects. While it was at the lower end of the Technics range in its day and has a rather low-weight plinth, it still incorporates the Matsushita-patented direct drive, which is vastly superior (IMHO) to any belt drive and doesn't display any vibration problems even though it is directly coupled to both the plinth and the platter (the platter being part of the motor, in fact). Regarding speed consistency, wow&flutter and rumble, it still easily beats almost everything you can buy new up to 1000$ today.
Oh, I forgot: Of course, the Technics SL-QD33 also has rubber dampers fitted to the lid …
Rega Turntables don't have isolators on the dust covers, but my Technics does. I think a lot of it is down to the individual design of the Turntable
@@theol1044 : True indeed regards the Technics Direct Drive motors! By having the platter as part of the motor itself, via the huge magnet, or coils attached to it, there's nothing really there to to create rumble or case-borne noise..even their inexpensive belt drives had the motor decoupled via rubber grommets from the plinth, and with fine, smooth centre bearings, they too had hardly any rumble! 😉
nice 👍
That Qasar unit was really cool.
Honestly, I didn't even know this was a claim that people made, and it's pretty dumb to just leave the record exposed to dust like that.
Our family had a GEC music centre which didn't give you a choice in the matter. The perspex lid covered the turntable and, strangely, the cassette deck next to it. It was quite heavy, so you couldn't count on it staying open while you played a record. If you detached it, it wasn't easy to put it back on. Then again, the full range drivers in the speakers probably didn't pick up enough detail for anyone to hear a difference.
was it a 'flat' type? my uncle used to have a gec one like that..
@@andygozzo72 Yes, it was.
Well at least the advice that was popular around here was to keep the cover close to prevent acoustic feedback from reaching the needle. Nobody thought the lid would become sort of an acoustic chamber. These day I keep it mostly closed myself. It help that most of the times it doesn't want to stay open anyway :D
I loved this video!❤ laughed so hard. Those audiofools are choking now. Can you hear them?😂😂
I can tell you that the Victor RE-45 (Radio Electrola) has instructions printed on the lid to be sure to close the lid when playing records. The needle talk is particularly loud, especially when using standard steel needles, and you can definitely hear the difference with the lid closed to filter out the needle noise. The same is true of all Victrolas with a lid, whether wind-up or electrically amplified. Unfortunately, my VV-VI doesn't have a dust cover, and it greatly reduces the soundstage and imaging I get from the RE-45. With the RE-45, it's like Paul Whiteman's orchestra is right there in your parlor!
I have a Pro-Ject turntable. I don't have any issues with it, but I leave my cover open and attached when playing records. I haven't heard any resonance from the lid being open. I did close it once, and it must have been the particular disc, but it was catching on the cover! I've also had the lid slam shut when playing a record which wasn't good, but I had loosened the hinges as they were too tight. Anyway, the lids have a small gap around them which doesn't stop dust collecting.
I reached the conclusion on my own that removing the lid sounds better without reading about it anywhere or anybody telling me. I had a vintage 80s Denon direct drive and now I have a more modern Rega Planar 3. The music seems to "shake" the open dust cover, causing a muddiness or even acoustic feedback if I played it loud enough.
I usually leave mine up, but good to know that it doesn't seem to matter that much although leaving it up is the worst way.
I did the test with an Audio Technica AT-LP60X and there's a BIG difference but with the Static. The cover helps the static build-up to the point my record skipped a lot. Then, I tried again without the cover and it stop the skipping. I test this many times with same or similar results.
Do you have an anti-static mat?
quick follow up spray glue a felt cover on the lid would probably eliminate all the cover noise other than physical tapping just like theater curtains
In my Reloop TT manual there is also such note. But i didn't hear any difference between close , opened and delided.
LOL! I live in a dust palace. The cover is on and closed at all times unless I'm changing a record, running a dusting brush over said record, or working on the turntable itself. There's also a difference in conducted vibration from the lid depending on whether it's attached to a solid base separated from the motor and tonearm by the suspension (i.e. most changers) or attached to the plinth itself (SL-1200).
I found this interesting, I play mine with lid down to protect from accidents and dust, to me it's a no brainer! Plus I am quite happy with my sound.
Seit über 60 Jahre höre ich Platten! Weder beim Platten-Wechsler in der Telefunken-Musiktruhe, noch beim DUAL Stereo-Platten-Wechsler, noch bei den HiFi- und HighEnd-Stereo-Plattenspielern von DUAL, WEGA, Kenwood, Sony, Technics, Pioneer oder LUXMAN ist mir je ein Klangunterschied, ob geschlossen, geöffnet oder entfernt, aufgefallen!
Nice experiment.
It's basically the old: just because you can measure it, doesn't mean it's a problem.
to avoid copyright strikes run the 33 at 45 or 16 if your player supports that slow.
the algorithm CAN NOT identify content that is running too slow, to fast or even backwards.
It all depends on the level of equipment within the system, its susceptibilities, its capabilities of resolution and level of isolation etc. But I believe that the larger surface area of a connected dust cover, (open or closed), would indeed potentially pick-up sound waves if the sound pressure level was sufficient... That's why sail boats have sails... :)
Always remove the dust cover; the dust cover will resonate and the vibrations will make their way into the cartridge.
You can clearly hear how much more open the record sounds with the dust cover removed.
If you can't hear the change, listen for how much more congested the mids become at 12:34; likewise you can hear the highs open up at 12:48 when the cover is removed.
It's perhaps subtle but obvious if you're listening for it.
You are absolutely correct - always REMOVE the dust cover entirely, never just leave it open.
I just can’t avoid the temptation to beat on the cover of my turntable while listening to records. Maybe I should try sitting on the couch and enjoying the music instead?
One reason is most of the crazy-priced turntables seem to come without dust covers, so if you leave your dust cover off, your turntable immediately looks more expensive than it is!😜
Actually, my own experience is playing the LP in an enclosed chamber generates/retains a lot of static in the record, and that does have a deleterious effect on tracking. I use a Technics SL10 and static build up in the LP after playing a single side is obvious.
When I have my record cover closed it's possible to get feedback from the speakers vibrating the turntable. With it open the feedback is not as bad-the cover acts as a dampener for the particular frequency my turntable and shelf is susceptible to (I have a shelf attached directly to the wall to prevent floor vibrations from my bouncy hardwood floors). With the cover off the feedback is also worse, maybe not as bad with it closed but it's hard to tell. In short, a lot depends on your setup and room.
Well back in the day, when I was a student, my record players needle would skip because of the loud volume from the speakers, unless I closed the dust cover... Although that was with like a 70s Technics receiver and 70watt speakers, at about 60% volume 🙉
How to say ‘You need a dust cover’ without actually saying it:
*I have a cat*
A toy! Whack! Whack!