First Sizing After Fireforming
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- čas přidán 10. 11. 2023
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Favorite Short-Range Load development targets:
Shotmarker circle-cross target: cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/052...
OCW Target (circles with orange diamond): accurateshooter.net/pix/ocwta... - Sport
Wow, this is why I would have been happy if you did this in an indoor range. With scientific test you try to keep external variables as minimal as possible. Still very interesting, not at all what I expected.
I go through all those processes but you have no idea how much help you just provided to a lot of people. VERY VERY INFORMATIVE VIDEO that people can understand. Thanks
Thanks again Keith for your time and great advice !
Keith, as always, great information and very well explained! You have a wealth of knowledge and experience! 👍
Just a great video and it answered some questions I have had for quite some time. Thank you sir.
Thank you so much for detailing this. As a new reloader I was surprised at the difference when I measured the 1 fired brass against the comparator. You validated what I suspected as well as my inclination to measure them all and sort them. Phew!
Thorough Keith.
Excellent.
Good on you.
Excellent!! The most thorough method and explanation I have ever listened to how to properly resize brass! Thanks for all your work on this!!!
Thank you. This cleared up what I was dealing with yesterday
Thank you for introducing truths about these processes. I haven't made time for 10 plus years to enjoy the reloading or shooting i genuinely love. These videos take the edge off. I truly enjoy looking for insights. Really enjoy watching these. Thank you,
NE Oregon -
GM Keith just wanted to thank you for share your knowledge and tips with us out here! I appreciate all that you do for us in sharpening are skills so we can better at the thing we like to do. 😊
Excellent tutorial and explanation
I'm glad you went with the disassembled bolt method. This is how I set my sizing die. When there is a tiny drag at near closed, I know I am good.
Keith, so many avenues folks have put out to follow. Here's my take on how you do it. Thanks for putting so many important fractions together that somehow make sense in layman's terms in order to follow. There are a few others out there who give good, simplistic information however, your methodical approach is quite refreshing. I myself am just starting down this path/rabbit hole, with regards to reloading. Have stumbled a few times yet when a good video such as yours comes out, my rejuvenation invigorates the passion to not give up and continue marching forward. I am glad so many folks who really care about this sport, take their time to help us all become better.
Thats a great video ! Thanks i learn alot from you !
This video is seriously beyond value. I’ve dealt with more dimension problems or inconsistencies during sizing than during any other phase of the process. I think your method will completely make those problems go away. thank you for all of your great content!
Good information Keith
Good job explaining your process - both how and why. I don’t need to hand load to your level of accuracy; however, it is very helpful to know that not all once-fired brass from a given rifle will be the same. I had assumed incorrectly that it would be the same.
Don’t forget that the ejector plunger is spring loaded and can (will) fly out if you are not careful. There are 3D printable jigs on thingiverse that have a plunger that will hold the plunger down while removing the roll pin and allow you to release the plunger and spring slowly to avoid this.
Thank you for the info. New here, and grateful to learn.
This is really helpful. The chamber confirmation and final length sorting are steps I had not considered. Whereas I have 2 cans of 1X fired brass (Starline 223 & Alpha 6 Dash), I am definitely going to add these steps. The only comment I have is for torqued (no nut) barreled actions and consideration of the applied torque. While torqued actions will not have the same variability as nutted barrel/actions, the technique of double checking actual final head-space may still have a benefit. Of course, starting with the same torque for the "next" barrel is also important. Thanks for this valuable insight, and all your contributions to the sport.
Brilliant video thanks
Another great video.
I'll be doing this with my new 284.
That put it simple. Now if I can get a good routine down that's consistent with your system and get it to work for me. Thank you..
Great intel. Thank you. I do not compete. But I started handloading in the 80s. For my hunting rifles once I fire a case (new), I'll see if it rechambers easily. Almost all do with few exceptions and in my experience Winchester brand has the most that need attention. I sort all the cases and all that will rechamber with the primer still in, get decapped and neck sized only with a bushing then over a turning arbor, then I test fit them again and will trim cases when necessary. So far it's served me well. When cases do not rechamber or are too snug, they get FL sized and sorted accordingly. I use those for fouling the barrel and practice
One thing to consider is that the angel of the die and the chamber is not always the same and can give false results/measurements .
On my 3 308win dies it will vary 3 thousand if I size to slight drag on the bolt 💡
Soo...
I think that it's better to size the test-brass first to bump the shoulder to the new angel and then with tejp-shim figuring out what the zero headspace is ☆
Theri also a method that I call the bang-method 😅
Size thfe brass to fit the chamber without drag.
Put a live primer in the brass and shoot it >>
Now have the primer expanded to fill the gap and probably 1/2 thousand on the plus side.
Test the bang-case in the camber and gently tap the protruding primer in until the bolt just dragging... , monitoring the process with the calipers while tapping and testing .
Now you have a perfect fitted brass dummy to measure from 🤝
Great vid as usual. Important info for sure. I ruined about 60 starline 6 CM brass but setting the 2 thou bump of ONCE fired brass. Turns out I was sizing around 6 thou and 4 firings later.. head case separation!! Bugger
Masking tape when removing ejector pin and spring with a BIG magnet. I found a little tiny spring six months after it went "fling" lol
I have go and some no go gauges but have made a set of feeler guages for the bolt faces in .001 increments so i know before hand what my chambers are. I dont use a comparator. I use RCBS mics and measure the headspace guage to make sure they are the same "0". and measure brass before and after firing.
Always goid video's you produce that are spot on. I guess because they agree with what i do mostly!!!!!! Lol These youngsters could learn alot if they listen! Good job as always Keith.
Do more like this topic. What you do from the start to when everything is fire formed and your culling process for brass . Thank you and God bless friend.
Excellent explanation, I do exactly as you do there, &, I find/determine the rifle's max.-trim-to-length aswell, ..... minus the annealing,....., but, NEVER would have been able to explain it/put it in words, for newbies anywheres close,.....a teacher & a speaker I am NOT.....lol
I was gobsmacked when I first used the comparator and found my fired cases didnt all measure the same headspace. But great idea to sort those out of the main stream until they 'grow'.
Best presentation on this important but unappreciated topic.
Thank you!
Those Redding shell holders are one of the best inventions ever.
The hardness of the brass you're using matters too. In my 22GT I'm using Alpha brass, which is awesome stuff. I found that any loads less than 34 grains will NOT expand my brass to fill the chamber. Alpha brass is that strong. I measured all my brass before and after firing and found that loads under 34 grains had no effect on expanding the brass to fill the chamber. The measurements were unchanged. Hodgdon's max load of 33.6 grains for the 88 ELD is just ridiculously mild. It only yields about 2860fps from my 26" barrel, which is just dumb to me to push .22cal 88 grainers that slow. Using softer brass you would be able to load lower and still fully expand the brass to fill the chamber.
Keith a very eazy way to fireform brass to be consistent is 1. Anneal. 2. Load with a moderate load. 3. Coat just te case with a very light coat of light oil. ( hair clipper or airtool oil works great) 4. Shoot. 5. Measure and you will be surprized.....thanks to Tony Boyer. I only put the annealing step in an it does make a difference.
That’s a poor man’s proof load
This is all common sense! And I wish I had been born with the instant common sense button. I was not. Therefore I rely on you and now a very few others to supply it. Thank you so much for your videos! This one went straight into the load development file.
I am a hunter, looking for top accuracy and reliability, NOT a competitive shooter: My method I've used for years (decades?) is to fire form factory brass, then set my sizing die "Loose'.. then, slowly tighten die while checking in the rifles chamber (with firing pin/ ejector etc intact) until the brass just fits/ closes with a hint of resistance. Then screw die in 1/8 turn more and lock down. No measuring, maybe not as accurate as this method but quick and has worked very well for me, in many, many rifles ;) I then mark die (with a sharpie) so I can reinstall in the press again with repeatable settings. Obviously this only works if you are loading for a single rifle in a chambering (or have separate dies for each rifle)
If you are adding 1/8 turn after slight drag on bolt close, you are likely bumping your shoulders significantly farther than you should.
@@jessewerner4067 As I said: I am a hunter and therefore reliability is more important then getting the last 1000th's of an inch in group size to ME.. I need my ammo to work in all conditions, cold, hot, wet, dirty etc.. I have no problem getting well under 3/4" groups out of (most) factory barrels doing things this way, so... I understand this is a channel geared for competitive shooters but for someone getting started and not wanting to spend a ton of $$ on measuring equipment this might be helpful/ a good place to start ;)
Treat every match as consequential. That way you’re honing those skills and habits and consistently doing the the things that will win you the big matches. Practice sessions are for fire forming and load development. You should show up to a match dialed in and ready to put forth maximum effort.
For semantics how about “headspace clearance”. Most will understand you’re talking about the brass.
I may have a third reference after the headspace gauge and bolt drag. What about body taper, fat, and skinny cases. Could you have a fat blow-out case holding on the chamber making the bolt drag and not the shoulder? There may be a skinny shell case with the same head spacing and the bolt drops. Using a L.E. Wilson Trimmer Case Holder to measure case fatness to case taper, on how far it goes in.
What do you think?
That certainly could work.
Head oversize (.471 or .472 (.308) ) can give tighter head space feel.
You made my OCD kick in when you manually annealed each piece but didn't uniform the primer pockets 😁. Would you ever trust brass that failed initial measurement after the first firing, the stuff you set aside for fowling? Say it came up to length after 3 firings/sizings (and anneals) - it became indistinguishable from the other brass? After the first FL sizing with the plain jane die do you switch to a bump/bushing die and expander mandrel for your .223?
Hi Keith
I am new to rifle match shooting. I have a Reminhton 700 BDL 5R in 308. I purchased some Federal Gold Metal Match once fired 308 brass from a dealer.
It seems that all the instruction video either starts with new Laupa or once fired brass from the rifle you will be loading for. Should I full length size my brass to get to factory spec then fire form before trying to develop the match Ammo.
Is interesting how folk can't picture the concept of headspace vs CBTD and brass expansion and contraction at times, all have to learn it somewhere. I don't usually worry about load development too much on the first two shots, something looks good, great, I'll try it again on the second one, looks good there, play with it and work on it on the third one. Not scared to be a little lazy and just neck the first two shots on some guns either.
Neck sizing does work good for getting fully-formed cases, assuming you have the dies handy.
Very informative. Thank you. One question. Could removing the plunger and plunger spring all together, give more consistent results. Surely, the plunger applies pressure on one side of the head, and if the brass is slightly undersized, it will be fire formed slightly differently, compared to a snug chamber fit? Asking for a friend.
Are you asking about what was done in the video? I did remove the plunger for that reason.
What do you do with new unfired brass (223). Do you full length size or just load them?
👌👌👌
What variances do you allow for sorting? If 1.455" is what you're looking for. What do you allow for? .001", .0005", etc.. So in the end the cases you will use will fall in a variance of 1.450" to 1.460". What's your number?
Given I am sorting for precision work, I try to keep all of the cases in a group (or for one target) within .001". That is likely a bit more than is absolutely necessary, but it works for me.
Great video have you done any of this testing with a 40° shoulder on an Ackley improved ? What brand of stock is on your rifle in the video?
Yes, on a 6 Dasher. The stock is an MDT XRS chassis
In your research, how many firings do you feel? It takes to fully form the brass to the chamber when doing an AI cartridge from the parent cartridge. Thank you for your time. And all the great information.
2 to 3 to get a full, sharp shoulder.
@@winninginthewind t thank you very much.
Is annealing recommended for service rifles?
what would a man do with a savage axis cause it seems my savage pulls itself closed
Hoping you can help me 😬 My first lot of brass I pushed the shoulder too far and after two more firings they haven't grown. Any ideas?
How far too far back? I suspect you either have an odd combination that isn't making enough pressure, or more likely, there is measurement problem.
@@winninginthewind Almost all my once fired comes out between 1.888-1.885 and I assumed that was the chamber dimension. I recently got a reamer diagram which has the headspace at 1.9. I'm on a newer lot of brass and have only FL sized with no shoulder bump it's currently setting 1.889 and still chambers easily even with green painters tape. The brass I'm concerned about is mostly between 1.882-1.883 though some is as far back as 1.880 and after more firings with occasional pressure signs no changes.
@@winninginthewindBtw thanks for the reply, I've been watching a lot of your videos and learning a lot. Thank you for making them.
Why starline brass? Better than peterson and lapua?
It's brass, it shoots small, what else is there to consider?
After reloading for 55 years I see that it’s a dieing art , sadly
Great video. Quick question. So you set your resize die to provide the desired head space to rounds with “higher” size/head space and with that set-up resize all cases. And after resize you sort? I’m correct?
There is little to no need to sort the cases that are sized after the die is set up. If you want to, it isn't going to hurt.
I do put aside the setup cases to use as foulers if I oversize them during the setup.