Fireforming Rifle Brass: "You only get one chance to make good brass." ctdshooting
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- Jason Stanley with www.ctdshooting.com/ explains a 10 step process to fireforming rifle brass. For a written version click on the link to take you to the Blog on ctdshooting.com www.ctdshooting.com/post/fire...
Want to learn more tips like this? Subscribe: www.youtube.com/@ctdshooting/... - Sport
I have used Imperial sizing wax for this for many years. The idea behind this is to decrease the possibility of case head separation in future firings by not letting case walls grab sidewalls of chamber and stretching the brass unevenly. When fire forming brass it is critical to have case head up against bolt face and bullet in riflings. This set up and a very very very light lube on case will allow case to form to your chamber without uneven stretch of brass. If you are having problems with case head separations after 1 or 2 firings or get donuts in your cases necks after fire forming then it could be that you my need to try this process. In this video you were also told that he was shooting 1.5 grs less than he would be normally shooting , indicating a reduced load. He also told you that he takes ONE piece of of brass and tests it to make sure everything is working as planned. DO UNDERSTAND that this process puts all the presser from firing the cartridge on the bolt face with no help from the case walls. I dont think that he or I are telling you to shoot like this every time you go out shooting. The chamber should be cleaned of all lube prior to shooting standard rounds.
This is a good guide on how to not fireform your brass.
Appreciate video. Chasing Perfection is an obsession.
Guess folks who shoot in high dollar matches strive for that due to money & fame. Experience taught middle road common sense works. Find what works best for you, for your level of shooting. Seeking perfection in anything turns the activity from pleasure into worry & despair.
Meeting factory MOA with my standard rifle & reloads floats my boat...and we sleep well at night...😊
Very well wrote. Thanks for taking the time to comment. You might really appreciate this video: czcams.com/video/CFRj1UQkX5k/video.html
Excellent instruction.!!! Thank you. 🐕
You're welcome. Hope you were able to add something to your current process
Thank you mate new to reloading have all clean brass fired 1 in my rifles and plan to reloading from there very informative 👍 from Australia
Thank you for the kind words. Glad I can/could help. Lots of good information out there, sometimes it is hard to sort through it all. I suggest watching my video Precision Ladder. Once you know which rung the rifle you are reloading for is on, it helps narrow down the options. Feel free to send me questions as ctdshooting@gmail.com. Thanks again.
Great video. I’d classify myself as an intermediate level reloader. I’ve been looking at wildcats and AIs a lot lately so this is handy info.
Thank you for the positive feedback. Wildcats and AI are fun, but can be equally frustrating - which in a weird way, is part of the fun. Here is my website that may help on some different topics if needed. www.ctdshooting.com/ Good luck with everything. Keep me posted.
Great video and timely information. I am preparing to fireform some 223 AI. These tips will be very handy. Thanks for putting in the time and the effort. It's most appreciated.
You're welcome. Hope they turn out
I am a wildcatter and fire form for may obscure and obsolete cartridges.
I have tried most if not all types and kinds of fire forming.
Note" only 2 of my rifles are used for competition. 6BRA for benchrest an 250 AI for PRS.
Most if not all my fire forming are done while sighting and or straight on the PRS field.
Quick question" full powder load or 1 grn below charge?.
For the first case, I use 1.5 grains under what I think the final load will be. Based on how that case turns out, I can then adjust the powder charge.
You stated to use a long seating depth. How much additional length
@@JodyLake-rl2jl .
If you are asking me...
I always touch the lands"
Really enjoying your videos. The fog horn sound effect is super loud though.
Thanks for the positive comment. I'll get the sound fixed on future videos. Thanks!!
I'd like to see more about different brass. I reload .308, in my limited experience hand loading, the plasticity and elasticity of the brass differ. I've found Hornady tends to harden quick, Federal more forgiving. Still to learn about, Lapua, Winchester and Lake City. I've yet to invest in annealing equipment and suspect it may be necessary for me to achieve the results I desire.
Yes, but a big piece of the work hardening puzzle is how much the brass has to move during firing and resizing. The more it has to move the faster the negative effects of work hardening will appear. Annealing will relieve that hardening, but having the proper resizing die also helps. (I just finished an article that will be published soon explaining this exact topic, I'll let you know when it gets released.)
Also, (I'm about done - promise) I wrote a blog on matching the reloading techniques to the use of the rifle. www.ctdshooting.com/post/precision-ladder
Don't anneal the brass like this or you harden the brass because metal to soften needed to cool without oxygen so heat the cases and drop in a pan of water.
The reason to anneal the brass is the burn of powder heats the brass and then hardens the brass same as heating and not properly cooling in a pan of water without oxygen.
Careful w open flame indoors. Closest Iv come to personally dying was from carbon monoxide. Just looking out!
Much appreciated. I too had a close call with CO. There is a window open in the back and I keep the time short. I do appreciate any safety comments. Thanks
I was just about to trim my virgin 17rem brass to a uniform lenght ...
Best to wait until fired...due to "pull back" I think....
PS...changing my trimming technique to a "no pilot" system as cuttings seem to get into the neck area and "rough up" the inner neck.
The only time I trim before fireforming is when I neck turn the brass. (Assuming the case is not too long to begin with compared to your chamber) But...you can check for yourself by measuring length on a virgin piece then fireforming that one round and remeasure.
@@ctdshooting I've refrained from trimming before fireforming...I've measured ..they're all under or at spec....think I'll refrain from 3/4 neck turning at this stage too.
I saw on primal rights the damage a piloted trimmer can do...and noticed when. I trimmed a few...so...now ..going to lee quick trim...cheaper that " Lyman xpress".
Odc how I've noticed things...like the scored inner neck and not reacted appropriately...I guess I thought polishing would fix it up ..
Thanks
@@misterlewgee8874 Sorry for the delayed response. Life was pretty hectic the last 2 weeks. I think you're on the right track as far as trimming goes. However, I have always neck turned before fireforming. I try and obtain .002" neck clearance. As always the target will tell you if the process is working.
@@ctdshooting spent so much time on my new brass already . Measuring each case ..head space..lenght...neck Collet de, primer pocket uniform .vld neck chamber...trim the extra long cases up to 3 thou back .inner neck polish....thought I was done...
I saw primal rights video and he pointed out that pilot style trimmers chew up inner neck...bits of cuttings get in there and massacre the surface..so ..I almost bout Lyman electric trimmer .but..cos I'm poor bought a Lee quick trim die. Happy with that! ...
I'll look into neck turning...look at the turning pilot, Forster...see how my sized cases fit...and assess whether neck turning the cases might score the inside of the neck like the trimmer.. should also measure a fired case neck for clearance info. My main reason to 3/4 neck turn is for grip tension consistency...and maybe uniform case lenght growth...
But...pretty sure not much gains...ha.
My 17rem barrel is custom..seeing the neck clearance I get will be interesting..
Thanks ..
@@misterlewgee8874 Sounds like you have a good plan. Let me know how it shoots
I form 7.62/39 to 6.5 gren.
I’m seating the projectile out to almost jam. And going just above the bottom of the range.
Do you have any suggestions. Thanks and God bless
I do not have experience with your particular case - so I am hesitant to give specific advice. My first question - is there a big difference in case measurements after the first fireforming compared to after the 2nd firing? If not, then your current process may be doing the job. However the base of the case being tight against the bolt face is a fundamental that needs to happen. I don't know if "almost jam" is enough. Give me a couple days to ask this question to some of my shooting buddies that shoot the Grendel. I'll reply back to this question. Thank you
I heard back from a fellow competitor who did exactly what you are writing about. He does not recommend it. He said the LR primers can not take the pressure needed. He also mentioned Precision Reloading has 6.5 Grendel brass (Starline) in stock right now for roughly $60/100 pieces. Plus the 6.5 Grendel brass has SR primer pockets. Hope this helps.
Hi I’m building a 257 roberts Ackley first time doing fire forming. Was told I could use 6mm rem. Brass to fire form is that true or do you need to stay with 257 roberts?
Sorry for the delayed response. I was at a tournament all weekend. The good news is that I read your comment then talked to some guys at the tournament that know way more than me. This is not an easy yes or no answer - there is more to your answer than what is shown in the video. Please send me an email to ctdshooting@gmail.com and we can discuss further and (more importantly) I can get you in contact with a gentleman who can tell you exactly what you need to do. Thanks for the great question.
@@ctdshooting By watching you wrongly heat and not cool the brass in a pan of water and this you have no idea 6 mm Rem is the same as 257 Roberts one is 6 mm and the other is 25 caliber you need to stop posting your ignorant BS giving out bad information.
I am 63 years old then from 16 years of age I was hanging in a local Gunshop that builds rifles and many on wildcat cartridges and now I build and sell AR 10 uppers is wildcat chamberings such as 6 mm - 284 win - 358 WSM and a 375 - 300 WSM and I do allot more customs on request.
No telling what other stupid BS you've posted, and someone can get hurt reloading?
It is fools like you making videos about reloading I see that don't even measure the power going into the cartridge then load it with a bullet and say this is normal reloading.
As a reloader you haven't a clue a 6mm Rem cartridges and 257 Roberts cartridges the only difference is one is 6mm and the other is 25 caliber you should not be making reloading videos.
How do you fire form brass when you have a "factory action". The chamber is so long that it takes at least two, if not three, firings before all of the brass is identical. Problem is the web of the case is getting worked hard. Its almost like the case head is getting worked backwards towards the bolt face. Having a factory action is just bad...I dont know how to get around wearing out my brass prematurely just fire forming. I will try to load at Jam....maybe that will do it.
Thank you for the question. Any chamber takes 2-3 firings to get a true match. This is why custom die makers want 3 firings on the brass before you send them the cases. My experience has taught me that at least +.020 jam and .004 neck tension are "must do" when fireforming. When doing those 2 things on the first firing, one can start the load development process on the 2nd and 3rd firings which will then "final form" the cases. I hope this helps. Try the jam and high neck tension and please let me know if it helps your situation.
@@ctdshooting Im on it !! I usually do .030 jam and .002 neck tension. This tip will help for sure. It makes sense....Its hard to teach yourself things without a little help along the way. Thank you. I will definitely get back in touch
@@rickm4295 The +.030 sounds good, but with only .002 neck tension the bullet probably just gets pushed back in the case when chambered instead of pushing the whole case back against the bolt face first. Good luck. I'm looking forward to reading how it goes.
Not sure how I feel about oiling the cases. Seems like you’ll get false pressure signs on the case head.
I appreciate you taking the time to comment. I have not experienced pressure problems, but as with all firearm related procedures, if you do not feel comfortable doing it then don't. Thanks again
Not just that. You won't form the case to the chamber, but to the oil film. If you fire form your brass, you want to make sure, the chamber is absolutely clean. But hey: Different strokes for different folks. And it seems to work for him. All in all, I think, he makes a very simple procedure unnecessarily intricate and laborious.
@@highwaytohelles4561I guess simple if you adhere to the principles...
I wonder if a very light coat of oil would change the dimensions 😮...enabling the case to stretch tosize by not gripping the chamber sounds...like sense ..but..more pressure on your bolt....I'm led to believe...
Oiling the cases does not increase pressure. What it does do is roughly DOUBLE bolt thrust by radically decreasing chamber friction. This decreases the fatigue life of the bolt to 1/4 to 1/8 of it normal lifespan if you keep doing it. This is not theory or conjecture, it was tested in the 1980's. CZcams hornady podcast #71 'lets talk cartridges cases' with jeff siewart
I feel like you’re putting way too much thought into this. I don’t know how much of an improvement you see versus just firing factory or once loaded ammo, then measuring from cartridge base to shoulder, and setting your die to bump the shoulder back 2000s.
Thank you for the comment. I think it depends on the level of precision desired. If you have a process that is getting you to the level you want - then keep doing it. Have a good one.
You're 100% right.
For a person who is a reloader and you don't know to drop the aneled hot cartridges in water to cut off the Oxygen to soften the brass is stupid!
Heating and letting that bras cool around air is exactly the same as firing the casings and the heat hardens the brass.
Any old machinist knows about heat and metal which clearly you have no idea what you are doing!
What you are doing is going to shorten the cartridges life make the necks hard and cause cracks in the necks.
Thank you for taking the time to comment. However, my data and experience do not match up with what you typed. Best wishes in your shooting endeavors
@@ctdshooting Your experience clearly is the rating of Green Horn is dangerous to yourself and others!
I expected this because ignorant Green horns like you are Narcissist who believe only you know everything and everyone else is well below you because CZcams is loaded with knuckle heads like you.
I am sure a green horn reloader like yourself never checks the powder weight before going the cartridge you just fill power to the neck then seat a bullet which I have seen some 1000x in CZcams videos by Narcissist Green horns like you.
Are you aware that half of the water is oxygen? Just curious.
Dropping your annealed brass in water weakens the case head area too much over time and can lead to prematuer case head seperation. Allowing your brass to slowly air cool is the best way to soften the neck and shoulder area without damaging the case head metalurgy.
And no - air cooling the brass during the annealing process is not the same as fireing a cartridge, not even close. Cartridge fireing adds massive internal expansion pressures to the equation.s