Sigmar, Bless This Luminark | Empire vs Chaos Dwarfs - Total War Warhammer 3
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Is it really a Turin Empire game if state troopers don't get friendly-fired by his own artillery?
most characters on big mounts having 5-6k HP vs Astragoth having 8k on a mobility chair is just absurd
Not only that, his effective HP is actually a lot higher than that due to his insane physical resist. This feels like one of those times CA didn't do testing, like at all.
“He’s riding a legendary dragon cosplaying as a mobility chair” -CA, probably
I love how at 5:13 zinkler's reiksguard are full hp and then 5:40 when you see them again they have lost like 80% HP and Turin starts to explain how mediocre the granite guard is, when they just annihilated the whole cavarly crew off screen 😂
They also got unlucky with that charge from the measly war wagons which launched like 20 of their models so far they insta died
The Empire's greatest strength are now meme units haha. Luminarks and wagons everywhere.
depending on game mode, wagons aren't a meme but very strong and a must have in nearly every build. luminark was also very effective but people were just too dumb to use it.
I think my only real complaint with Bull Centaurs from what ive seen, is the 25% missile resist from "Scaly skin". They're basically naked dwarfs with a bull body, im not sure where the Scaly part comes from. If i'd want anything nerfed, its 25% to 10% missile resist. Ofc this is only coming from a point of having watched videos of it, not played as or against it myself.
"Scaly Skin" was a blanket rule on tabletop for natural armor save. In the case of Lizardmen it was from scales, in the case of Bull centaurs and Warhounds it was thick hide.
@@Yotamb9 Does it add up with the shield? Both TT and in-game?
@@Chocolouf Yes
I’m a simple man, I see an empire match, I watch.
SUMMON THE ELECTOR COUNTS!
tfw you're brought to your men
I still firmly believe Empire needs a greasword Reiksguard variant. Something similar to knights errant but worse so it doesn't step on their toes.
The AP hammer-wielding Knights of the White Wolf would be perfect
Dismounted Reiksguard I think is a unit the empire has, so a heavily armored shielded elite infantry would be awesome. And White wolf great hammer is another, I've seen both in mods. Atm empire doesn't have much except greatswords
CA and the community will jump through mental hoops about the Empire roster except just giving Greatswords reasonable stats.
If they were just slightly worse Tzar Guard they'd feel tremendously more helpful
Empire infantry as a whole has been kept artificially bad; they really need to be improved.
And I don't mean another cost reduction - they should be better than they are statwise.
@@ToyMachine1o1 agreed. As various CZcamsrs have pointed out, there should be a stat reward for disciplined formations. And an armor buff seems warranted, given how crap 30 armor is. Something like 45-50 is reasonable -- and then add in some higher tier infantry with the knightly orders.
13:38 that rocket has a mind of its own, I tell you, and with chorfs that may not be a figure of speech
I’m predicting Druchii on the horizon. Pretty much the only faction we haven’t seen yet.
WE?
Haven't seen Slaanesh, Khorne, Tzeentch, Cathay, Beastmen, Wood Elves, or Norsca. Also Ogre Kingdoms and Skaven were featured in the first livestream but not since then.
"boris todbringer retreating" *boris charges into dwarf warriors in the background*
Glad the empire troops can't hear you, spell goes off "oh it is just swordsmen" haha.
Bull centaurs apparently have a bug where ranged units at long range (especially artillery and guns) don't shoot them properly. They shoot behind them.
I'm no competitive player, but the reason I'm against centours being super good is because I feel the rest of their roster is so darn good, they really don't deserve a super heavy duty cost effective mobile piece to cover their brother dawis giant weakness. I do agree that being slow makes them more reasonable so at least cav factions can choose when to fight them. Problem still lies it's a somewhat fast unit that can come offer relief to a capture point, or challenge you from blitzing an over extended unit at times, something their brothers could never do. I understand they're not the dwarfs but instead their own faction, but they already have so many other tools like spamable chaff, cheap fast cav, tricky single model arty, and flying monsters. TLDR sum up is it's an everything roster, I like the concept of weaknesses. Honestly a cost increase is probably all it needs, and nothing insane. My opinion though.
I get what you mean, i play tabletop warhammer and warhammer 40k, some factions just have all bases covered and it’s not as satisfying when you play against those factions, and to get out-gunned and out-meleed whether you win or lose.
*Bull Centaur advocators when they have to look at any other stat than weapon strength:*
Repasting another comment: "Yeah so, this video was recorded a while back, I've seen then changed my mind a bit about centaurs, def borderline OP. Kind of like the war wagon for chorfs, I do feel its more of a priority to nerf magma and astro tho"
Finally, the buffed luminark is here!
also i agree that from what i have seen in actual battles, bullcentaurs aren't over powered for their cost
Powerful? Yes. But Chorfs NEED that power. Its kinda like the Empire and wagons/sunmaker. Both units are overtuned in a vacuum, but the Empire really does need them to be as strong as they are
they are stronger than dragon ogres......dragon.......ogres. this mixture should be way stronger than those bulls and in TT they weren't that strong either. so balancing isn't about changing cost and everything is fine. the bulls need a tweak in HP and WS at the same cost
@@HomerJSimpson999 yeah. Dragon+ogres are weaker than shortgrudger+horse, lol
EMPIRE BABY, LET'S GO!!!
I feel like Fate of Byuna or a Shadow Caster with Pit/Miasma would be really beneficial for your build, would help you clear out infantry independent from the SM
Watching Turin's Empire play is always a happy place :)
Bull Centaurs are Dragon Ogre or Zoat speed and they absolutely wipe those units, and at a lower cost.
Aye, those are both considered terrible units, that probably needs buffs themselves. Bull C are really good, borderline OP for sure
Both those units suck but both those factions are in a good place so it's fine, different factions should shine in different areas. Also Dragon ogres and Zoats have more armor making them way better against missile fire, smashing two units together in a dumb way to compare them.
@Joska Romero Bull Centaurs have scaly skin and the ability to take shields, so no, they do not struggle against missile fire more than the previously mentioned units. Also, I agree that different races should have different strengths, but this should not be one for chorfs over WoC.
@@brucerobinson5405 Both have scaly skin. Taking the shields is it's own tradeoff.
Bull centaurs are a big part of the CD religion and roster, WoC are dominant in other areas (Demons Lords, infantry etc.).
@Joska Romero It doesn't matter how special they are to chorfs. Reiksgard are some of the most iconic units in the empire, yet are hardly the best in their respective category. WoC are heavy weight hitters and extremely melee centric with little access to ranged tools, making their playstyle extremely engage/rush oriented, this is their strength. Chorfs are far more adaptive with far more variety of playstyle options, (Bull Centaurs themselves showcase this with their many variants) this should mean their units that fulfill such dedicated roles should (if anything) be weaker not stronger than a faction who primarily plays that way. I would be willing to take Dragon Ogre buffs over nerfing Bull Centaurs, but they need to be equal or worse in order to keep with each factions strengths. If chorfs have variety of playstle AND beat WoC at their own game, that's an imbalance. We don't have enough data to know for sure, but instances like this add up and disrupt the game's balance. We'll see for sure in a following patch if CA nerfs them or leaves them alone, but I would bet, and hope changes will be made.
A good point ppl often miss out on is that spirit leach drains vigor so those 62 speed cenaturs or any elite nature fights worse and moves slower.
Is this new. I’ve never heard about that.
Awesome! Luminarks can finally be relied upon, I can't wait to use them in campaign.
Now all we need is a light wizard mount version.
in campaign? you rely on Luminarks in campaign? oh boi
@@HomerJSimpson999 He stated two separate things. 1) That Luminarks can be used as a reliable form of high damage rather than them missing 50+% of their shots and 2) due to those changes he cant wait to use them in campaign as even with all the buffs lords and tech can give them they were still quite bad. He did not state that he relyed on them in campaign and yet somehow you conflated the two.
Damn Turin throwing shade at the test Zerkovich did on the Bull centuars :D :D It is kind of true though, things are never 1 vs. 1
King of the Scrap getting another win, great match!
Dogperson showed me just how strong those bull centaurs are today. Granted I don't often play MP, but I could not handle the bull stampede running down my army.
Wow, what a great scrappy battle. Seeing the strategic counterplay with the luminark and death caster was cool.
that green colorscheme for the Chorfs is beautiful.
Loving the content lately, T! Gonna sit down for this match with a kielbasa dinner worthy of sigmar
MAN I love watching Turin play empire. Such a clinic!
can deathshriek shoot out of forests? since they fire straight upwards and all
I haven't seen anyone bringing the Overseer lord or the classic hell cannon! :(
Probably because "tHe MeTa"
In all seriousness I'm assuming that Astragoth or Drazhoath, even the generic caster are objectively better options, as well as magma cannons with arty
Love the amount of WH content right now 🎉
Wish their was knights of the white wolf aswell as their troop variant, sigmar himself worshiped Ulrik.
Always love seeing Empire Wizards. Alas for the days when I had a computer and could play!
Is the Luminark now the best counter artillery unit in the game?
Only against SE arty
Is there ever a faction to use greatswords against? I understand that Dawi Zharr have AP ranged, Mobility and arty, but it feels like every faction have answers against not only greatswords but Elite Greatweapon Infantry in general, so when are they useful to use?
CW? Counts? Nurgle?
If you are not sweating against some dark lords Felkons, you can use them in multiple matchups really. They definetly aren't useless and it's not like they are as expensive as Chosen, so even if you lose one or two it's fine.
Turns out greatswords aren't that great.
I would love to see Demigryph lances in this matchup since they could move to counter the front and backline pretty well and maneuver against the centaur bulls pretty well
The anti large b centaurs do beat them though
@@robink8317 I get that thats why you dont engage them you outmanuever them
@@robink8317 demis have like 75 speed to 64 thats really good
@@patrickwalker7418 not fast enough to get away, dwarfs have a slow
@@jtowensbyiii6018 exactly keep moving you just proved my point
These double posts have been 👌🏼
I don't normally comment on these but am I missing something with Turin saying this was a close match up? Running an 8k lead most of the game. Had all the agency on the battlefield with fast moving war wagons, knights and demigriffs. Chorfs spent most of that time summoning in low quality infantry in a desperate attempt to keep the mid point captured. It wasn't even mildly close. Lord got dumpstered, arty got dumpstered, and renders got dumpstered by all metrics. This is probably why I wouldn't do well in multiplayer because I'm not seeing how the chorfs had a single moment in which they could've seized the momentum and won? The sunmaker got resummoned 3 times! That's how little pressure there was!
Seemed like a 20 minute empire shooting gallery!
It sure felt close while playing it!
The Empire alpha strike is ludicrous, even against the chaos dwarves, hitting 4.6k value before chorfs hit 1k, crazy
I think the luminark having its damage output doubled are a big part of that.
The luminark went from extreme meme to extreme threat. Honestly state of the Chorf's war machines aside, I wouldn't hate seeing the luminark lose some ammo to balance out this change.
nah bro, the luminark just had a buff and you wanna instantly nerf it, let the empire shine dude
@@winterbreed7001 it’ll have plenty of time with how long we go between updates lol
First I thought, finally Tom is a special guest today, just look at that thumbnail
I love the fact that Astrochad is a thing, lol.
Hey Turin, I'm not a competitive or multiplayer player, but with Chaos Dwarves having fire resistance would a normal Helstorm rocket battery not be better than the fire damage Sunmaker? Stats wise against 25% fire resist the Sunmaker does 570 damage vs the regular Helstorms 305, so it still does more damage, but with the regular Helstorm being so much cheaper and having more ammo, you wouldnt need to resummon it as often.
The Sunmaker also fires more rockets per volley, which is part of why it's picked. More rockets means more chances to hit your target.
the sunmaker does WAY more dmg than the standard helstorm
@@lyinarbaeldeth2456 specifically it fires a lot more rockets in a lot less volleys, making it easier to use up and unsummon
Sunmaker has different ammo profile to the normal helstorm rocket battery. 9 rockets (8 shots) vs 3 rockets (22 shots). With only 8 shots but each shots have 3 times rocket more, Sunmaker can dish out damage a lot quicker than normal helstorm (usually it's 2-2.5 times faster). Sunmaker also has a built-in rank 9, it helps A LOT with the accuracy (43 accuracy of the Sunmaker vs 20 of a normal helstorm), you can put chevrons on the normal helstorm, but it will increase the cost roughly 350 gold, which will become 1450 gold vs the Sunmaker 1800 gold, still cheaper but not that much. Sunmaker also has bigger calibration area, which helps them switching targets quicker and be more effiecent with its shots.
So, 3 main reasons for picking Sunmaker over Helstorms:
- Different shooting profile, help dishing out damage twice faster (8 shots over 160s vs 22 shots over 310s)
- Better accuracy thanks to built-in rank 9.
- Better at retargeting.
In general, if you wanna replace Sunmaker, you gonna need 2 normal helstorm (rank1) and it's still less effiecent against smaller, more elite armies (more elite infantry with 80 models instead of 120-200 models) and if you need to spread them out (helstorm can friendly fire other helstorm if they park too close together), now you have to defend 2 artillery units instead of one.
@@lyinarbaeldeth2456 this makes most sense yeah. My thoughts were that I see why the Sunmaker is the choice for match ups other than Charfs, seeing as its only 1.7 times as expensive as a regular helstorm for 2.5 times the damage. But its damage is nerfed by Chaos Dwarves inherent fire resist of 25%. Now being 1.7 times the cost of a regular helstorm for 1.8 times the damage, still good but not enough in my eyes to make up for the lacking ammo.
But your take makes sense to me, yeah way more chances to hit your target, and also the fact it starts as a 9 Chevron unit also means that it has an accuracy bonus as well, so taking actually hitting its targets into account yeah I get why the Sunmaker is still the far better choice in this match up
Good lord, the Empire trashes the Chaos Dwarves. The lack of a quick aggressive push and little Anti-Large for the Chorfs make it hard for them to fight back.
What does the Luminark even shoot now? I didn't see the old animation of the big ass laser. Does it shoot some sorta orbital attack now? Or is is just a visual bug
Probably my haggard graphics
@SU-35 Lol no. Great Weapon Bull Centaurs would tear it to shreds.
the mantide he said 🤣
Wouldnt maneater pistols ror work against Bull centaurs? They have gotten very good missles, okay melee stats and you Can littraly support Them with gnoblar trappers again to slow them Down and those missles would also kinda work
Finally the Luminark-tech is back
The Empire is such a cool faction 👨🏻👨🏻👨🏻
Did the war wagon at 13:47 get saved from the deathshriek rocket because it hit a little horse instead? :D
Bkections I have for how good astragoth and bull centaurs are is lore. Astragoth is never mentioned to be an elite warrior, he's a crippled sorcerer. Make him fast and mobile and halfway decent sure, but he shouldn't be a wrecking ball thank. Bull centaurs are powerful yes, but they shouldn't trade as well as they do against stuff like grail knights, crushers, blood dragons or dragon ogres, best anti large of the warhammer universe. As for flame canons, they are just too opressive, slash some range off of it so it has more room for counterplay
TAUROX NEED BEASTMEN! NICE GAME THOUGH
i believe that the bull centaurs need a price increase
Man, it's so frustrating trying to explain to people that just because a unit beats another in a perfectly isolated fight does not mean it is a better unit. People just see these test videos and immediately cry about how this 60 speed 50 Armor unit is a better cavalry unit than Grail Knights.
Turin have tried Empire captains on horseback to hold units in place while you shoot/blow them up?
I don't have Warhammer 3, but how well do you think pistoleers would against bull centaurs?
Can't wait to see Chaos Dwarfs vs Slanesh
WOOOO! EMPIRE! WOOOOOO! GO SIGMAR'S CHOSEN! WOOOO!
Turin is there a posibility to send u some replays or your rather comme t on yours battles
6:50 lmao. no idea if that was intentional but you can tell turin is not happy with the power creep. chorfs do everything that empire does but better. not even slaanesh could scrap that long with such a disaster opening.
did you really just compare how strong slannesh is to the chorfs?? they are probibly a bit OP in some match ups but other than like 3 units their roster is pretty much fine
Haggard prediction : 17
I know Chorfs seems quite strong, as it pertains to some of the units on their roster, but I dont get why they dont have access to some standard Dwarven cannon that would be good at artillery duels etc.
It blows my mind, I heard that they have the best artillery in the setting, but they don't have fundamental straight firing cannons here.
I've been waiting for this.
Nice video
I wanna see some empire tlc from ca
I wonder if pistoliers would be a good answer to bull centaurs
I played a few rounds today with this matchup. They do okay, but that missile resistance of the centaurs keeps them going for a long time. Even more so with the variant with shields which don't have to worry much about the small arms fire.
I'm a little curious, since normal Dwarfs are a nightmare match up for the Empire. Why are Chaos Dwarfs so good for them?
As far as I remember chaos dwarves don’t have magic resistance which allows for magic. Their war machines unlike the dwarf ones are single entities, which makes them better snipable from single entites or cannons. Additionally the chaos dwarves have expensive infantry which is beatable by rockets and lastly their cavalry while strong is slow, allowing for kiting with pistoliers and selecting fevourable Engagements. Think that’s all. They just allow for more options which are common in empire armies
Guessing it's because Chorfs field stuff other than "really durable shielded infantry"
Chaos dwarfs are lacking alot of the core components that makes the Dawi-Empire matchup so hard. Dawi can bring cannons to deal with sunmaker and war wagons. Dawi have a "cheap" and reliable anti large source for empire cav in the form of slayers. Put your slayers close to your already winning artillery and the empire Player becomes a sad boy. It's basically impossible to get good value out of state troops vs dawi due to their high armor, and the fact that state troops usually gets melted by cheap miners with blasting charges. The Empire likes to bring a strong core of characters in either toddy or franz which can bunkerbust positions. This is Very tough in the dawi matchup due to the prevalence of ITP(longbeards and slayers). That leaves the empire Player with very few tools for winning the value game, which is most commonly how empire wins their games. Lastly, dawi having 25% mr across the board just makes the matchup harder.
Put simply, Dwarfs can flood the field with tons of tough armored infantry with great leadership and ITP, and they have the tools to easily counter all of the Empire's answers to that.
put simply the empire have 3 main strengths. arty cav and magic in that order regular dawi have cannons to match emp arty slayers to hard counter their cav and 35% spell resist on all their units that are all super armoured making magic not good against them. chaos dwarfs dont have any of those things
HASHUT HASHUT HASHUT
I really wish you spent more time going over the unit cards so we can see the value.
I'll do a stream to answer any such questions
It'll be an exciting time for Centaurs to be nerfed, which leaves the faction with no viable Anti-Large option outside of Goblin Labourers or bringing out massively pricy Ironglaives.
Please do a Beastmen vs CD, I feel like its the only match up the cows can shine since CD hate skirmishers faction so much.
I hope they dont nerf that luminark, it looks super fun.
I really feel like this match would've gone way smoother for the empire if you brought in some handgunners in the mid game
TURIN NOOOOO! You're gonna get the luminark nerfed. Just kidding CA wouldn't do that to us right?
Boooooya! Sigmar wills it!
i bet on the Luminark!
I do find it a bit sad that you have to rely on the Sunmaker so much, shame CA doesn't make every unit useful on factions instead of just that "unit". Including how silly accurate everything is, the start of the video proves that.
Hey bro when will you play Aoe4?
First! Great replay!
the lumi has been great in WH2, too, but people are just too dumb to use it right
Boris Todbringer is op change my mind
Wait there still isn't a "lord fled the battlefield" debuff when you unsummon?
Come on that's so much BS, not having a lord present should always give a debuff, even when your actual lord is in reserve and hasn't shown up yet.
It need the same penalty as fled the battlefield, it's crazy that isn't fixed yet!
yeah 1v1 unit tests are NOT a good way to deterimine how units work in reality
no your totally right peasents beating chosen in a 1v1 test wouldnt be an indication of something being broken at all.
@@leojohn1615 correct, chosen always get slaughtered by peasants alone. Truly sad
Chaos Dwarves are going to need a serious buff to be a contender. There going to be the new Nurgle faction when it comes to Multi player.
What are you smoking lol
I got like a 4k value lead, and it still became a close game, chorfs are fine!
@@turinRTS what about tzeentch....pls my son is very sick he just wants to see some tzeench Ws
@@turinRTS Given that they have no magic resistance, and all the unit's leadership is bad so there easy to break with terror they seem weaker than even regular dwarves. I know it depends on the player and what they go up against, but you pretty much nuked his units and I think it was due to his skill that he didn't tap out early.
I think it mainly comes down to Chorfs seem better at mulching through Elite armies yet when he uses cheaper units, multiple statetroops, Or the Goblins/Ork Boys in yesterdays, even just Marauders w/ great weapons, it seems to counter the Chorf playstyle.
Buttttt I don't do MP, I can only come to these conclusions by watching them be played. Chorfs just seem better at dealing with elite armies then large cheaper(?) armies.
I think Turin is coping hard about Bull Centaurs, any unit that trades that high upwards is going to be op, even if they're a little slower.
Yeah so, this video was recorded a while back, I've seen then changed my mind a bit about centaurs, def borderline OP. Kind of like the war wagon for chorfs, I do feel its more of a priority to nerf magma and astro tho
@@turinRTS on a related note, bull centaurs and dragon ogres have very similar stats, why are the centaurs performing so much better?
Dragon ogres have 10 more armor, but 6 less ma and md and a tiny bit more speed. HP and models are the same, and both have the missile resist as well
@@turinRTS I'd have to wait to get my hands on them personally, but the main things I find odd is the missile resist. Centigors don't have it, but it feels like even the Bull Renders have a shield with a 25% missile resist. If that wasn't there, you could more easily gun them down, without cutting down on the combat stats. Or not, just waiting to see them myself.
@@M0DIDDLY It is because Bull Centaurs had Scaly Skin in tabletop and Centigors did not.
So luminark is good against single body units?
you can land units manually , why didnt you land borris behind a pillar or in the forrest? the rockets wouldnt have killed him