Batman X Batgirl: The Problematic Ship NO ONE WANTED
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2024
- Fun fact my computer's ram cards broke the day after I finished this video. BatmanXBatgirl broke my computer !!!
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I would like to apologize for informing or retraumatize everyone of this ship’s existence but I’m sadist.
Also, I will go back to doing reviews soon!
No no, this is fine.
Because Bruce Timm should catch flak for this like a zeppelin over London, FOREVER. Let him NEVER live this down. Because if we let him think we've forgotten, he might get it in his head to "get it right this time."
You can make it up to them by giving us the Arnold and Helga shipping video. Besides, one has to appreciate a good trolling every once in a while.
Don't worry, I forgive you. I'm glad that at least when I was unfortunately reminded of this crap it was because someone was calling it out.
It's so ironic for me that u made this video when u did, because I've been re-watching Batman:TAS, and I was literally thinking about how wrong this was yesterday because I was watching the Roxy Rocket episode, and Batgirl said some wild shit like "Once she has a taste of u, there's no going back"(amazing what they put in kids cartoons back then), and even Batman is lookin' at her like "Dafuq?", that should have been the end of it, but nope he smashes her anyway, in hindsight it's crazy how much they actually hinted at the ship too, also are u gonna do a video on why u hate Young Justice Season 4?
U fucking monster. Apology not accepted >: (
I understand Batgirl lustng after Batman, but him returning her feelings is insane
Her having lust for Batman is creepy. and him being a sex predator is creepy also. i mean, WTF??
@@dusty5412
It’s creepy, but it makes a little more sense, since people can fantasize/lust for people who are older then them (specially at a young adult age), still creepy of course, but a lot more understandable than the old guy reciprocating the feelings.
@@dusty5412 So you mean to tell me that you've never, ever, at some point in your life, had a crush on a teacher, babysitter, or anyone of a significant age difference?
Completely agree. A teenager having a crush on a mentor/adult/teacher is normal as long as that's all it is.
@@dusty5412 truth be told, there is young girls who are into older man, in the end the wrong one will always be the responsible and mature adult who reciprocate those feelings
"Robin is the most-popular pairing with Batgirl... when's he's not banging the alien"
This was absolute gold😂
1.3k likes with no replies? let me fix that an entire year later
1.3k likes with 1 reply? let me fix that a day after the last comment.
Ngl it's kinda true
I mean Star is clearly the better option. At least she didn't sleep with his adopted father. (Also she's just way hotter.)
So I'm an outsider to the canon mostly only familiar with the DCAU, Teen Titans, and some of the more recent animated movies, so help me get this shit straight here.
Dick Grayson is Nightwing, the one who bangs Batgirl and Starfire.
Jason Todd is the one who came back as Red Hood.
Tim Drake is the really young one who the Joker kidnapped and fucked up with Cadmus tech in the Batman Beyond movie.
And Damian is the little fucker who Talia popped out.
Did I get that all right?
An even worse thing that I just worked out, so in the comic Barbara is roughly 7 weeks pregnant, and dick has been around for 3, which means taking away the week in between she would’ve been 3 weeks pregnant during the joker death scene. But the thing to note, is that Tim was kidnapped 3 weeks ago because Batman and batgirl weren’t on patrol with him, this horrible thing might’ve happened to Tim because Batman and Barbara couldn’t keep it in their pants
That is so horrible it somehow loops into being kinda funny. Like, was this timeline made like that on purpose?? did the writers just really wanna piss people off?
Wow didn’t even realize that…amazing how this ship manages to make one of the most selfish and narcissistic versions of Batman ever and makes Barbara look like she has no purpose but to be a ginger fetish fuel
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
@oliviaforrester2983 Damn! So, that means that what happened to Tim was basically Bruce and Barbara's fault. And Terry was the one that had to deal with the fallout of that. Things like this are why I'm probably the only one who has never liked TAS Batman as a character. Don't get me wrong. Kevin Conroy (RIP) did a phenomenal job providing the voice of Bruce Wayne/Batman. But how this version of the character has been written makes him so unlikable and detestable.
@@GabreyaThe original TAS Batman is a good character. I blame The New Adventures of Batman to be the downfall of a lot of those characters. Characters lost a lot of visual appeal, Batman was more like the Frank Miller depiction, and Batgirl is just the girl.
There's a quote about Dini and Timm.
"As they got older, their tastes got younger."
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
This ship is so creepy.
czcams.com/video/cg-6lkHgfaE/video.html
Finally yes :]
For all the reasons YES
No it isn't you sheltered prude. Probably got some headcanon going on that people who hate this usually have, which makes up Bruce being a father figure to Babara.
@@zerofudou5689 LOL like it is ok to sleep with ex of your son.
It enable the fantasy oldman put a seed on teenage girl… fuk its disgusting.
the Batfamily should have a "no dating between members" rule. by which i mean; this should be a rule the writers stick to.
I agree
*Me, a Dick/Babs and Steph/Tim/Cass shipper* Nah, just let’s make it so Bruce ISN’T dating his sidekick.
@@repulser93 This
No mentor/mentee relationships
But Barba and Dick had a genuinely wholesome relationship tho...
Before Bruce swooped in and NTR'd his son.
I think Oracle is an amazing development to Batgirl. It proved that she's not just the girl sidekick, she's actually as good a detective as Batman.
Right, like actually I love Oracle. How we got there might have been shitty, but it is the best thing that's ever happened to her.
This peole believe that anything bad happening to a female character is misogyny, instead of, you know, a character arc...
I mean I wouldn't classify oracles role as being a detective
A:"what's wrong with being a sidekick? B:"Oracle isn't a detective, she's mission control, the one who provides information from online and hacking skills! C:"Oracle is a retcon, made by someone else. Can you imagine the outrage, if she straight up quit crime fighting instead?
@@illseeyaonthedarksideofthemoon
Nah i definitely could see why it was seen as misogynistic before, because back then there was a phenomenon called “fridging” where the women in comic books have horrible things happen to them to further the men’s development.
Oracle was a good way to turn it around though turning it into actual development for batgirl
There are 2 rules:
1. Don't bang your friend's daughter
2. Don't bang your son's gf
Batman broke them both
The absolute worst part of trying to get into Gotham based media. I still go for Catwoman and Batman because they are at least messed up together in the right ways for me.
Agree! Bruce and Selina even make each other less messed up.
They flirt CONSTANTLY, either straight up or subtly.. I also swear there was like an episode or something where Catwoman & Batman got together but I could've imagined it.
Catwoman and batman work better because Bruce is always chasing crime while Selina is a kleptomaniac who can't help but commit crimes. They complete one another from a superficial point, and really play on the whole good guy seduced by bad guy with a shit ton of sexual tension.
There is so much more about their relationship then just a super hero and a thief. Catwoman by Ed brubaker is one of my favorite interpretations of catwoman and even goes into detail of her relationship with Batman. Highly recommend.
it's more annoying than messed up.
same thing with spiderman and black cat.
Fun Fact: There is an alternate universe where Batman takes over the world and Jim Gordon evades his cameras for weeks, figures out his secret identity, tracks him down, beats the shit out of him, strips Wayne industries of all of its assets, than throws him in jail.
This is what i envision whenever i see this ship.
@TheGlassesPro In DC there are infinite paralel universes so Yes.
If you’re asking “Is it in the comics” the answer is also yes. Look up “Batman the grim knight”. And you should find more info there.
That would be great to read. Beat the man that took advantage of your daughter
@@PirvateerKurei This also unironically proves that Gordon is more competent than all of batmans villains or the entire justice league combined.
The Grim Knight (the evil version of batman in the story) is also claimed to be the most inteligent of the dark knights. Even smarter than the Batman who laughs. Main universe Gordon said that he would have done the exact same thing if Batman became evil.
@@cherechesalexdaniel811 Thanks for the recommendation, that sounds like a fun (and right after this video, a little cathartic) read!
Batman who laughs became oversaturated due to Dark Knights Metal. Then we have evil Punisher Batman 😂
Thank you, this sufficiently covers why no one wants Bruce Timm's trash ship and never will. Why go for this abomination of a pairing when Bruce and Selina have been there since the beginning? While there may be a conflict of interests between them, they are at least equals that actually love each other and the success or failure of their romance doesn't utterly destroy the family Bruce has left.
Yeah actually good point cause it seems like in DCAU Bruce Timm was desperately tying make this dumpster fire of a ship work instead just sticking to Catwoman the actual love interest of Batman
Why? Because Timm is getting more and more delusional with age. People keep praising him for DCAU and he bought into the hype.
They could have even explored Talia & Batman's relationship (the one where they were married & had Damian together, before Grant Morrison came in with the horrible r*pe stuff). Anyway, the tension between Batman & Talia or even Batman & Catwoman is enough to fuel a whole series. Literally no one needed Batman/Batgirl.
I honestly love the plot line of Barbra getting paralyzed and becoming Oracle, but the way she’s reduced to a love interest really takes away from the strong female disabled character that she could be. And it shows in fandom as well, I see people constantly calling her a slut because she is so often depicted as just a love interest for the men in the comic. And it makes this other, often immature people believe that they should hold these standards to real women. Despite what some people believe, media does reflect in real life, so it’s important for people like the writers of these female characters to write them like people instead of objects. Idk that’s just an ick for me tho
Couldn't have said this better.
"He's known her since she was either 13 or 15"
I believe the dialogue implies that the last time he SAW HER was when she was either 13 or 15. He could have actually met her much earlier than that, indeed, somehow worsening this whole disaster of a ship.
TAS Batman met Jim Gordon and Leslie Thompson the night his parents were killed. They were his anchors even as a child. That's why Bruce Wayne has his own relationship with Commisioner Gordon. Think on that time table and feel free to vomit!
People be complaining about age difference but still ship Wonderbat. :D
@@feelcollins4358 because their both adults and met as adults 🧍♀️
@@nyxdrawsthings6847 How does that change things? It's still a 5000 age gap.
So if old Bruce met Barbara when she was an adult then it's fine since they're both adults? 😂😂
@@feelcollins4358 …yes, and if he wasn’t In a mentor, mentee relationship with her.
Bruce is like a second father to Barbra, this ship should never had happened. It's distasteful, disgraceful, deplorable. Just no.
That’s Shipping was ridiculous and insane
You must be young
@@richardshiflett5181 the hell does that mean?
Barbara: "You know, I used to have this huge crush on Batman."
Bruce: "I had assumed at the time. That disappeared once you became Batgirl and learned you'd known me since middle school?"
Barbara: "Yeah. All that crap disappeared pretty much instantly."
No it’s disgraceful, disgusting, and despicable.
What were the writers thinking 😬
For real 😮
I agree with you one hundred percent! Whats more I never liked what they did to Barbara in the comics, paralyzing her and reducing her to being Batman's hacker/computer expert.
The fact that DC allowed Batman to have sex with Batgirl before ever allowing him to have sex with Joker is a crime
100%
All the gay tension between them needs to be addressed outsid eof the Lego movie
to be honest I'd be all in for a weird, alternate universe psychedellic version of Batman and Joker that's fucked up and they have gay sex but they're not even gay. Like they just have a toxic relationship that is encouraged by each one's particular brand of mental illness and they don't even like each other, they just feel like they need to have this will they won't they relationship of crime and violence. A very psychological and dark exploration of the human psyche and Batman as a character
@@Doctor_Straing_Strange you're a little late several adaption has Joker as being canonly bisexual and gay, even the telltale Batman game played with the idea where this Joker has feelings for Bruce Wayne. We already had Batman as a communist villain, as someone who abuses Catwoman, or someone who has sex with Batgirl...elders story can play with the different ideas
@@exchangediary968 oh I know, but I wasn't talking about like a healthy relationship, I'm talking about some fucked up, unhealthy, psychological horror shit
Imagine the influence if they'd actually ran this story arc early on in a way where she had a crush, and Batman politely turns her down, explains why this isn't going to be a thing, and they work through that in a way where they can continue to fight crime together, and she moves on appropriately. Would have given young men an example of both being able to set boundaries, and also having some conscious awareness of problematic situations to avoid.
Yes, god please! We need more of that in everything!
You have no idea how much I wish that happened!
Actually, you probably do.
No arguments here. Unfortunately, that didn't happen because it got away of the wish-fulfillment.
We need to change what examples men are given as to what wish fulfillment should be
I've unironically seen porn handle the situation better
"Why was she pregnant with his baby...?"
Me *Turns my head in a neck snapping fashion* Excuse me?
Robins' cursed:
1) Ex's getting banged by his father (that beat down was for Tim Drake).
2) Killed by Bender (as Joker), and then brought back by plot armor juice.
3) Hornii girl and Killer of Robins' having intimate relationships while he was tortured for weeks.
4) Roasted by DC Thanos.
Reminder that back when Infinite Crisis was being written they were _seriously_ considering killing him off and it was gonna stick. Right as Jason Todd was being brought back, no less!
Thankfully it didn't happen but the damage was done and he got his whole town nuked.
@@sndark6241why do they hate on my boy Nightwing so much?
and the dumpster fire that is teen titans go robin. that robin is literally a joke, the butt of all joke. no thanks.
I was in a theater for Killing joke. When they started making out the entire theater was literally shouting their disapproval. One guy behind us shouted "No! He's old enough to be your daddy!" An apprentice having feelings for an older, mentor figure is far from original, and it can be grounds for some interesting drama and character development. However almost universally having the mentor act on or even have the same feelings is considered wrong.
During the story of drakengard the protagonist has a sister who has a crush on him...
Thing is he really does not and near the end she kills herself because he doesnt correspond to her love
That game is really dark and fucked up but i think it really does well when covering dark subjects
The director said in an interview that he did this because he hated the sister tsundere troope from animes and manga
It’s not just that it’s a mentor/mentee relationship. It’s that it’s BATMAN AND BATGIRL. Like wtf????
The truth is bruce is only 8 to 10 years older than barbara
Gordon and thomas wayne are from the same generation
Bruce isn't
@@heroeus8173 Yeah but he is also her mentor, father figure, dad's friend, and knew her when he was well into adulthood and she was a minor, no CallMeCarson type shit either.
@@vergilsonofsparda3019 father figure?
If barbara needed bruce as a father figure it would mean that gordon did a bad duty as dad which i think isn't the case
People tend to be shock by it
Because they imagine bat girl being a little girl
She was a woman when she f*ck with bruce
And that's that
My only issue would be that bruce knew that sleeping with barbara would hurt grayson
But at any moment
Bruce didn't pursue barbara
People just tend to idolise batman too much
Honestly it would have been better if they made Barbara having a secret crush on Bruce and him not returning to her feelings.
That's how it originally was
@@ninab.4540 and that's how it should have remained!
Agreed. Imagine the impact if Bruce had to awkwardly reject her and explain why they could never be a thing. It would show growth and solidify their work/platonic relationship, a temporary heartbroken Barbara who now has to get over her problematic crush, and just reaffirm the fans respect for Batman as the adult.
@@LisaNaniOfficial honestly, the killing joke would be made more impactful if the final moments he has with barbara are an angry lecture on why they shouldn't and will never be together. like, he chews out his protégé and the next day she's paralyzed. it'd definitely hit harder than "oh no, the girl batman just banged can't walk now :("
That would've been a little better.
Though it's sad that the story in killing joke focuses so little on her I really liked the change in Barbara's character they made. With her getting paralyzed but still being a superhero, the glasses she got in her design, the part she had in the birds of prey, it just felt like such a fresh concept and the way she was dealing with her trauma made Oracle a so much more interesting superhero than Batgirl for me. That being said i do wish they made an adaptation of the killing joke where they actually focused on her character cause this movie was just aint it
Who the hell sleeps with their adopted son's ex-girlfriend
Fr
@@Kazuma_kiryu311depends on the version.
@@Kira22558 ik
Everytime I managed to forget about this ship, I'm unfortunately reminded of it. Seriously, it's one of those things that I try to pretend isn't cannon in the DCAU cause I REALLY hate it.
czcams.com/video/cg-6lkHgfaE/video.html
*Do Not ▪︎ miss this*
Same like I literally forgot it existed then this video popped up and the flashbacks started again
@@Ghostface1998 Is the same with me I forgot about this and this is pop up. What hell the person was thinking have batman x Batgirl. Who thought this was a good idea
@@xana7617 if I was in the board room and the person who spat “Batman and Batgirl should fuck getting Barbara pregnant” I would’ve fired them immediately
@@Ghostface1998 yes I do the same. They should just have batman get with catwoman or whoever closer to his age.
I love batman but at this point the guy would get in bed with anyone is don't matter to him if is your daughter, Sister, girlfriend and wife. All of this makes it hard to even liked batman when you know the guy have no morals to stand on when it come to relationships.
I feel the same way when Catwoman comes onto Dick either in the comics or any of the animated stuff. The idea of my Dad's ex-girlfriend flirting with me when in some continuities she known me since I was a kid gives me the heebie-jeebies
Yeah, I mean she is basically his adopted mom!
Cat woman was always a slut type so it makes sense tbh
@Sara Moustamandi
Not in the sense of an assaulting or r@pe, but few hero characters are. She’s more like Blanche Du Bois. Disgusting but not quite illegal.
The thing is, Babs is also pretty close to Bruce's age.
With Catwoman you have the awkwardness of Earth-2. There, Dick started seeing her as a mother figure pretty much during her first appearance.
Considering his numerous attempts to murder the Joker were foiled by Batman in another story in that same issue...(What can I say? Dude has professional pride, and the Joker is an insult to circus performers everywhere.)
ew ew ew thats his stepmom wtf
I have to be honest, I don't understand why people hate Babs as Oracle. I understand it gets annoying when every comic book follows that same story, but I don't understand why it's seen as such an awful thing. I love Oracle, especially in Young Justice. I love that she was still a massive part of the team, even if she's in a wheelchair. I do have to agree that BatmanxBatgirl is nasty though.
Actually, Babs being paralised is great disabled representation. Especially in the superhero genre, where someone in a wheelchair is always put as the future villain or a helpless victim. All the disabled people I know love Oracle and get really angry when writers retcon her disability to randomly make her walk again, because they're taking that representation away from them. And from what I've heard from other DC fans, A huge chunk of Babs's fans are there mostly because of how unique a wheelchair-bound "chair guy" female superhero is, and how, despite her tragic backstory, she still manages to be a great hero and even be a boss to other heroes and coordinate them.
All of this to say, I understand you think it's cheap she got beaten down for a male character's arc, but don't say nobody wants this because you're ignoring all the fans who see themselves represented in Barbara and love her for it.
You don’t need representation to see yourself in a character. That notion that you need to have a character to be exactly like you to see yourself in them or identify with them is ridiculous
@@ninjafrog6966 I never said exactly like yourself. I said being disabled, which is a pretty low bar in a genre where they're always beating each other up. Booster gold, for instance, also got disabled when they ripped his arm, but it got retconned. Many characters become paralised or lose limbs or some other disability, yet they're only retconned to be perfectly fine if they're a hero, because writers don't want to deal with disabled rep and how to write authentic stories about disabled people. Only villains aren't retconned (see: Harvey Dent, for instance) because it's very easy to write a villain around a disability (vengeance, being crazy, being mentally unstable...) but it's much harder to write an authentic, heroic and earnest story about being disabled., with all the difficult conversations that can come up around it
From your comment it seems like you've never needed representation in your life because you've always considered it the statu quo. I will not assume which kind of person you are, but that's how it comes across. You don't need a character to be exactly like you to relate to them, but you need characters like you to know people like you exist, and that they're going through the same issues you are. take care.
My only problem is that a single bullet *in the gut* was enough to make her unable to walk.
We could've just had a "Oh and she was shot in the legs too BTW" or "The Joker hit her legs hard when she was unconscious to disable her, just for the *kicks* " (I'll see myself out) But nope.
She got shot in the belly like, once, and that's enough to paralyse her legs. And considering the fact she is a crime fighting vigilante, she must have a physique good enough to withstand at least 1 bullet as long as it's not in an organ where the bullet would insta-kill her.
@@pkmntrainerred4247 I do agree with that, yes. Personally, my first contact with this particular story was the Booster Gold version, where he tries to stop this event from happening. If I remember correctly, Joker beats her down really badly in that version of the story, the bullet is just the cherry on top
@@tadesubaru1383 Hm, I guess at least *one* version of the story made it believable
I actually saw The Killing Joke in a packed theater when it first came out. It was dead silent when *that* scene came up. You hear a pin drop, everyone was so collectively confused and horrified.
Lmaooo i was flabbergasted when this scene came on as well and pretended it didn't happen at all
I watched this on my dad's phone and best to say that I had to make sure my dad didn't catch onto this and my reaction.
I already didn't like the killing joke, and that made it worse for me.
I'm terrified now
@QueenJuliRose yea for context batgirl/Barbara is literally Dick Grayson/Nightwing/Robin…..main girlfriend other than his “teen titans” counterparts…..she’s the girl you’d think Dick would end up with when it was all over….so two things i hate was yes what they did with her here in “the killing joke” is criminal….aswell as the “Arkham series” of games were they make her “Tim Drakes” love interest i hate that almost as much as the killing joke bs
I remember in a video interview, Bruce Timm talked about the relationship as:
"I know it's wrong, but that's why I love it."
I love your work, even your risque stuff.. but NO, (BONK!) JUST NO!
As someone with a limited understanding of the DC mythos, I have to ask, why? Why this one? This ship feels like a smut fanfiction you'd find on some weird sect of the internet, not something that should be taken seriously as an actual part of Batman lore. Or alternatively, it sounds like an exaggerated plot thread for a fake drama show or a dating drama parody.
@@flarestorm9417 youre so right
@@flarestorm9417 because it is
They'd love this guy on CW.
I think one of my biggest issues is that we don't see enough of Batman's pov here.
I want to see some Bruce Wayne slamming his fists down yelling: "why did I do that!?"
I want to see Catwoman and Dr. Harley Quinn rake him across the coals.
I want to see Him Gordon go ballistic.
I want to see Alfred lose his sh_t. Why are Babs and Tim the main ones getting all the consequences?
Also Bruce pursuing this relationship seems VERY VERY out of character for him. The guy is as straight as a line when it comes to the rules AND when it comes to the people he cares about. Yes he's a playboy, but that's the character to keep Batman a secret.
This is the most out of character thing for Bruce that I have ever seen.
It’s so horrible as it’s his best friends daughter 🤢🤢🤢🤮🤮🤮
let's not forget that in some cases, Batman's known her since she was a young child. And there's everything creepy about getting with a person you know when they were a child.
Like you said, in some cases. There are versions when she's already in college, - or even older - by the time they meet.
@@OneGaurdian yeah but we're primarily talking about the cases where he gets with her after knowing her as a child,
@@OneGaurdian In college is still kinda weird cause most people are still transitioning into adulthood at that point. But knowing someone as a literal child and then pursing them once they’re legal is a whole different level of creepy and wrong.
@@rawr1131 it's only creepy of they had feelings for them when they were a child
@@SergyMilitaryRankings Well that’s your opinion. Turning 18 doesn’t make you a grown adult and a lot of people in college are still transitioning. So personally, if a grown adult meets the person while they’re barely legal and not even old enough to drink, I say it’s still creepy.
i remember reading somewhere that when the killing joke movie premiered at comic con went so bad one of the writers tried to pick a fight with someone in the audience because a joker cosplayer asked why they would downgrade barbara’s role even further to motivate bruce
Cosplayer was spittin
@@aex9516
And the laughable part that it's a joker who said it.
When the joker has a good point.
@@lawrencevalero8111 Lmaooo. I'd like to imagine that it was actually the Joker being pissed off at the writers.
@@Aidan_Infinity I just imagined a real-life version of when the Joker finds out Red Skull is a Nazi, but replacing Red Skull with the writer, all in Hamil's voice.
This ship just SCREAMS unintentional grooming.
At this point, if Nightwing doesn't have the best butt in the show/movie/comic, it's not Nightwing
"I’m 7 weeks pregnant"
"I’ll have to congratulate Dick"
"He’s only been back for 3"
"I was talking about mine."
STOP IM LAUGHING SO HARD 😭
👏👏👏
*slow clap*
I laughed my ass off 😂😂😂
so not cool, but hilraious at the same time XD
Bit of a correction Barbara was't temporarily paralyzed she was fully paralyzed but she got a spinal implant to become Batgirl again but recently became oracle again and now she's only being Batgirl when the batfamily absolutely needs her she's staying as oracle to give her spinal implant a break
Oh good I'm glad she's allowed to be smart again. Now if only they would bring back Stephane brown
@@Kris-wo4pj Stephanie is back she's just not going by Batgirl although right now there's a series with Barbara, Cassandra, and Stephanie called "batgirls"
@@skeletor4436 ah OK I've been out of the comics side for a while. Last I checked the editor refused to let Stephanie not be dead since he hated her or something even tho everyone else wanted her back as Robin or spoiler. Then again that was around the same time they refused to let batwoman get married in comics and refused to let batman finally marry catwoman after yrs of dating and flirting at all.
@@Kris-wo4pj Bruce and Selina are pretty much married they just never went through the whole marriage process and it does really suck batwoman was't allowed to get married
So much for representing disability among the superhero community. I think the reason why she was portrayed as Oracle for far longer than Batgirl is her struggle and rebirth as something far greater than an imitation of Batman.
But of course some people wants the cake and eat it too. And who can blame them for being so blind that they would miss the point of a crippled standing firm above her stereotype. And perhaps even above Batgirl.
24:12 - Oh gods I've never seen that interview, that just makes it so much worse. Like I know they generally have Brucey be rather messed up in the head, but having him be a literal predator towards someone that they are implying he sees as a daughter is just such disgusting character assassination. Babs deserves better than this.
This reminds me of the original age gap problem with Mr. Fantastic (Reed) and the Invisible Woman (Sue). In the comics, they first met when Reed (and Ben) rented a room from Sue's parents while Reed and Ben are going to college.
The original flashback for this has Sue being depicted as not even in high school but crushing on the older Reed.
Yeah, you can see the problem nowadays but guess back then, nobody thought it was a problem until the 00s were the story got updated and now Sue is de[octed as either a junior or senior and Reed is entering his 1st year of college.
As for the actual topic, the only 2 Barbara/Bruce that I don't think have any creep factor would be potetially LEGO Batman and the pre Crisis Batgirl....As you mentioned, in both cases, Barbara is way closer in age to Bruce than she is to Dick and in both cases, she and Bruce don;t know each other beforehand AND she never really is his protege/student
Apart from how fucked up this pairing is on an ethical level, it makes no sense for Batman's character. This is a guy who, while in a healthy relationship with Silver St Cloud (who's his own goddamn age), literally wept at his parents' graves because he felt like he was betraying them by being happy - that he deserved to be miserable for the rest of his life as penance for letting his parents die.
He's so duty bound and guilt-ridden that he can't have a normal relationship without feeling like he's doing something wrong, and yet this is the guy who breaks so many boundaries to sleep with a girl that he only seems half-heartedly interested in at best?
Batman totally comes off as the type who would chew out an older hero for sleeping with their apprentice, not the type who would DO it. This ship kills me, it's just so out of character.
@@ellag3265 this was forced, it’s bullshit
@@ellag3265 totally. It sounds like such a contradiction and fanfic-ey.
If he sleeps with her he will feel guilty, and can be more miserable!
Not bad, I wouldn't mind feeling bad over that! Would you?
Unless this is him self sabotaging his own life, which still makes this completely fucked-
Okay, honest question: How is Batgirl paralyzed AT ALL when she shares a universe with magicians and cyborgs?
The justice league can give a guy a robot arm, but fixing a spine is too much?
Drama..
Fuck the robot arm, Victor Stone was turned to fucking chili-meat and he was not only saved but turned into one of the world's most capable superheroes.
@@jacktheripper2537 Yes, I know the real world reason, but what is the in-universe excuse?
This makes no fucking sense in universe!
@@thegreygoblin5165 Yeah, but that was turned from "my dad is good at robotics" into "new gods tech does weird shit" a while ago (but after killing joke, if I'm not mistaken). But there are so many heroes and villains that have some form of magic or robotics that could have been used to heal Barbs.
John Constantine can bully God into healing his cancer (again) but Barb has to sit in a wheelchair for a few years?
I mean, I don't mind the representation, but it makes no sense in universe!
Apparently in some versions she has a spinal implant that allows her to walk, but she has to rest it pretty often so she only uses it as Batgirl. Still, doesn't really make sense, but at least it's something.
I'm with you. It's one of the things in the DCAU continuity that just makes things so uncomfortable, especially on a rewatch of the shows. I'm just waiting for Chris Hanson to show up and ask Bruce to take a seat. Honestly much preferred Bruce with Diana even though I think she's supposed be in her early 20's in Justice League. But there isn't the grooming factor there and they meet when they're adults. So it's fine in that instance in my book.
The World's Greatest Detective can defeat any foe given prep time, but can't fit a condom in his utility belt
The biggest problem i have with Barbara is writers will just pass her around the batfam. Across all media she has been with/shipped with:
Dick Grayson, Bruce Wayne, Jason Todd, Luke Fox, and Tim Drake.
Its fucking weird
Exacly. this might sound sexist of me, but, they just do that because she's a woman. you'll never see a love story between Jason and Dick for example, but with Barb it's completelly different. instead of having a sibling-like relationship with the other Robins or having Batman as a father-like figure (like EVERYONE ELSE in the batfamilly) she's just used as everyone's love interest.
@@hillboi5049 its not sexist of you to point out the truth of whats happening. Babs is the most popular female character associated with the batfam, so it happens with her more than the other ladies
@@hillboi5049 Just here. They don't do that for Catwoman.
The writers literally just treat her like the designated love interest, it's so frustrating, creepy and WEIRD, especially given what SC said: it feels weirdly incestuous. Like, Dick, Jason & Tim are generally considered siblings, and Bruce their surrogate dad. What actual person would date every branch on that tree? The writers don't seem to care how weird it would be especially for Babs & it's so frustrating.
Op I'm literally not saying anything new, I'm sorry, I'm literally just so incensed by how fucking weird the batman writers can get
@@hillboi5049 It definetly is pretty gross and sexist.But its really nothing new for dc writers I mean these are the same people who wrote stories about Batman and Nightwing getting raped
Long story short: Batman knew his best friend’s daughter when she was 13 maybe 14, now she’s 19 maybe early 20’s and they’re banging.
Lego Batman kinda fixed this having Batman not knowing Barbra. The party for Gordon’s retirement was the first time he looked at her, the presentation for her entrance said she had been in the police force for awhile so she’s probably in her mid-20’s. Regardless, they killed the ship by having them remain as just friends, in their words (but not entirely exact) “just good friends who just so happens to be a female.”
Please tell this to the ppl saying there’s nothing wrong
Which is fine. Don't need to be romantic.
Well Lego Batman is for kids...
Batman didn't know her when she was 13-14, she was 13-14 when Bruce last saw her
@@SanSan-jp1frthat means the same thing
😉👍Very nicely well done and very well informatively explained and executed in every way and detail indeed 👌.
"rule no.1, dating within the team always ends in catastrophe."-batman in the justice league show to wonder woman on a gargoyle. Bruce Tim "i'ma pretend i didn't see that."
Justice league is chronologically after that
I agree that the problem is Batman returning the feelings. Girls wanting older men is pretty normal, my father was 10 years older than my mum. If both parties are adults who cares about the age difference? It is the "raising her" part that even makes this a blip on my radar.
Unless its specifically shown, I wouldn't assume the "raising" part, but there is still the mentoring going on, which is also a problem.
It’s interesting because my mom was 10 years older than my dad and I never bat an eye to that until I got older. There was still a wierd dynamic in that too no different than the older man with younger woman relationship. Idk I guess it’s about maturity? But then again I wouldn’t date someone so far away from my age.
What raising part?
She had her father all the time
@@heroeus8173 Guess raising as a superhero. Learning lessons from him by observation, leading by example. The commissioner can prepare her for the life of a police woman, not a superhero. Or are you suggesting Bats had zero impact on her growth?
@@ThePariahDark well in that case you can admire someone without having intimate feelings for them
And it is very known that women in general like men with power
It's like you are saying you never seen men that have authority and that teach women
And those women dream to sleep with them
We can't really call that raising
If jim gordon was dead
And by that connection
Bruce took care of barbara since a child as a duty
Then it would be questionable if they came to this type of relationship
My only real problem is that grayson and barbara was dating at that time
But barbara just monkey branch to batman
And bruce knew that
And he did say to grayson when both are coming to hands
"That barbara make her choice"
But i still understand Bruce on this one on a realistic purpose
At any moment bruce never let barbara come to close
Except that very night
We idealise batman too much
At the end of the night
He has to put the cowl out and let Bruce wayne the place
the killing joke should have been a short film. there was no need for THAT storyline.
Oo hi harriyanna
It seems it was necessary to expose all the overly judgmental people.
@@erikdayne5429 It ruins Batman’s character. You seem like you’re part of the problem
Yikes. I didn’t even realize this was a thing. But thanks for putting a spotlight on the matter and how/why this happened.
I had ignored this thing in the comics in the last decades and you bring it back to my memory. why. amazing video and wonderful critic. but why.
Honestly the fact that they tried making this canon in some half hearted attempt to make the killing joke seem more tragic in the movies is lowkey insulting. Like the crippling of batman own sidekick and the daughter of one of his greatest friends wouldn’t be harmful enough.
Not to mention that Bruce always blames himself when something happens to them. Like Barbara said in Arkham Knight "We are fighting with you, not for you" which is something Bruce doesn't seem to understand or doesn't want to understand.
This ship will NEVER be canon!
I think it would have liked to see batman see her as a daughter of sorts, so when the shot happens, it hits him all the harder.
Bruce Timm was really into this ship, and honestly, I didn’t even pick up on it until they spelled it out in Batman Beyond. And then it festered in my brain for years. An ugly patch of mold on the DCAU that I decided wasn’t worth thinking about. Then the Killing Joke prologue happened, and they took something that already wasn’t good, and made it the grossest possible version it could be.
And hooboy, were Timm and crew super defensive about it when effectively nobody liked it.
I always saw the cavalcade in Beyond as "every woman Batman loves, even platonically". It's the only way I could square Babs being there with the rest. He loves her like a daughter, end of.
@@TheDanishGuyReviews I wish I could see it that way, but Barb confirms it was sexual with Terry the first time they meet.
@@arellajardin8188 I am so happy I don't remember that. It's icky, and I don't know how Bruce Timm doesn't get that. (Hail Mary here: Barbera was messing with Terry. Like how people accept River Song's idea of "You leave the Tardis brakes on" as gospel, when I always saw it as a prank.)
@@TheDanishGuyReviews Not only that, but in the Ra's al Ghul episode Barbara was part of Bruce's personal slideshow on his birthday alongside Zatanna, Catwoman, and Lois. In fact, Barbara was the last girl on there(and Bruce had multiple pictures of her and lingered on her photos versus 1 picture of the rest) and while he was still going through his Barbara album, Talia walks in saying, "I know you loved her, but I cannot believe you didn't save a picture of me as well."
Plus the debatably canon continuation comic series made an even bigger mess, with the reason Nightwing left and doesn't show up in Batman Beyond was that Barbara cheated on him and got pregnant with Bruce's child while she was Dick's fiance... and then got a miscarriage after being punched while crimefighting.
They actually got defensive?
In the early Batman shows where Adam West played Batman, batgirl was a smart, levelheaded woman who’s main fighting schtick was her really high kicks (I mean it, rewatch those fight scenes, she’s always kicking bad guys), and she and Batman had a mutual respect for each-other, and nothing more. Which is why they worked together so well. Batman had much more chemistry with Catwoman than with Batgirl, and I think that was intentional because there is “Man” in Batman and “Woman” in Catwoman, whereas “girl” in batgirl implies a younger person, just like in Robin’s “Boy wonder”. I’m not saying that this means Robin has to be paired with Batgirl either though, just that it does imply that Batgirl is younger than Batman.
And it’s a crime they didn’t do anything more with Marsha Queen of diamonds and her Aunt Hilda.
1. Best friend daughter
2. Age difference
3. Was dating the surrogate son
4. Why did she gloat about this in Return of the Joker?
Barbra in so many depictions is great, she really is. She is this intelligent, calm, level headed woman who is like a mentor to so much of the bat family. This makes it all the sadder when writers diminish her to just a side character there for sexual drama. DC had such a good character that is great disability representation (still think they shouldn’t have changed it) but the fact so many people know Barbra for this just makes me sad.
My favorite batman fangirl depiction of her is in Harley Quinn (that's not all she is of course she's badass and intelligent and calm but fangirl is also a part of her character also i want to point out she doesn't lust after him she just geeks out like you would meeting your favorite celebrity)
I think it would've been cool if Batgirl was just in a wheelchair from the start in the reboot, unrelated to Joker, so then people don't have to connect it in some way with that particular story and we still get the rep. She could've been insisting she's going to be Batgirl anyway and Batman is like "OMG no" and then she'd go "you ablist; aren't you the smartest detective ever? Help me figure this out" and Batman's only response is a silent glare, sweating bullets internally, and Robin backs her up, and Batman glares at him and he wants to refuse again but he's wired to problem-solve so Batman is pondering how to assist her superhero lifestyle while his utter intent is to stop her from getting killed at all cost.
And that's how we get Oracle I guess. Bat-fam scheme and plot to make her dreams happen together.
Barbra deserves more than just to be a side character. She deserves her own spotlight.
You just shouldn’t depict women in media like this, especially in the West it always just goes one way and if it doesn’t go that way in the show it’ll go sexual on the internet, you Westerners really need to wake up
@@Dovah_Slayer that’s a gross lesbo drama
In the Lego Batman movie, Batman is attracted to Batgirl, but in that case she was an adult woman he didn't know when she was a child and she didn't reciprocate feelings anyways. That's literally the only acceptable way for this to go.
I disagree. Age doesn't matter as long as everyone is legal. How can this be 2022 and people still discriminate against against age gap relationships?!! As long as it isn't illegal and both adults are consenting it's no one's business. Hasn't society learned anything from oh I don't know being incredibly hateful and discriminatory towards the LGBTQIA+ community for centuries? What society SHOULD have learned, but obviously failed to, is who other people love and other people's relationships are none of your business, it does not affect you in any way, keep your opinions to yourself as long as everyone is above the age of consent.
@@WhitneyDahlin Look up grooming, that's what's wrong here. Age differences are fine, but he knew her as a Kid and was effectively a second father figure to her. Helping raise a kid, only to fuck them the moment they are legal is not something anybody should support. I get your point, but there is a big difference between hate toward the LGBTQIA+ community and being disguested by Grooming
@@WhitneyDahlin A 60 year old met a 15 year old, waited for him to turn 18, and then started dating him. Is that not creepy to you? If it's not, Houston we have a problem-
Do not compare that to the LGBTQ+ please, we will not be associated with creepy relationships and grooming behaviors, we get enough people trying to claim we're all Ped0s, we don't need you trying to actually make us support them like wtf-
@@theironarmada1308 Preach👍
@@theironarmada1308 thank u
I have waited so long to see a video like this. Thank you 😭 this ship is just awful.
The age difference is literally in their names! BatMAN and BatGIRL!!! She isn’t a BatWOMAN, she’s way too young to pair with Bruce!!! 🤢
It’s funny because Bruce Timm is literally the only person who tries to push this paring that no one wants
He also appeared to have a thing for redheads. andrea Beaumont, roxy rocket, hawkgirl, Superman's wife in the adaptation of "the man who has everything" was changed from blonde to red hair and barbara gordon, lana from superman and Veronica Vreeland. If they aren't so important that it would become a main character ( except Barbara) he likes to paint his women red.
I don't care about most age gaps, but I hate how when media puts in huge age gaps, the younger one is always fresh out of High School. Can we maybe get an age-gap relationship where the younger one has at least some sort of experience in adulthood?
that's is why I don't like age gaps.
most of the fictional couples that I see with age gaps are between a young 18-20 and an adult over 35. This reminds me of those men who waited for the teenager to come of age so they could make out. It's so disgusting.
It took me a year to get around to watching this video lol. I agree with you, the context just ruins everything, which is why I took so long.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. This did not need to happen. It's gross.
This ship is creepy when you consider that Barbara and Dick are around the same age in the Dcau and since Batman first met Dick when he was a kid and was Batman for years there’s a good chance he might have interacted with Barbara when she was a kid
Birthday parties.
He usually meets Dick in his 2nd year as Batman, and Bruce is between 27/30, and Dick is usually 13. Either way, it's just fucking wrong on so many levels. I get carried away with these characters though, and I'm about ready to just sell my collection and stop fucking with comics altogether lol
@@aaronlisle3773 Post-Crisis it was his third year and Dick was 10. Pre-Crisis, first year and Dick was 8. The oldest before Flashpoint was 12, and that was Frank Miller's All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder.
(Note that germane to this, Thrillkiller is an exception, but it's an exception to a lot of things. For starters, Barbara is Dick's mentor. There, Dick is 16 and Barbara is 20, and Bruce is 22. Dick thinks Bruce is a creeper, and Barbara shuts him up by pointing out the obvious flaw with his logic. The flaw this entire fandom has continuously committed for over 25 years now.)
They met Babs MANY years later, in every continuity save for the New 52 (and whatever the hell Dixon and subsequent batwriters write about once Dixon felt the reactionary urge to wallpaper over people interpreting his Birds of Prey as a sapphic romance). Babs was already a PhD, and was at least 25.
Where DickBabs starts to cancer up this place is, they want to keep Barbara's past (while constantly retconning Dick's past, and frankly stealing elements from one story and applying it to another, so it's told he was on a mission to Tamaran during The Killing Joke; he wasn't, and in fact, Barbara saw Dick and Jason shortly before, like it's a frame in a comic published a week before, but speaking of Jason, he was on a mission to a planet called New Cronus, related to Donna Troy, when Jason died) while also making Barbara 14 when she was shot, which also makes her six years younger than Dick, and a minor, and I'd say it makes me wonder why she's leading the Suicide Squad, but Danny Chase had top-level security clearance at the State Department.
Keep in mind they arent that far apart. In the final season of the animated series they directly say bruce is 30 at the end of that series. ANd its implied dick was 10 when he met bruce. So he would of been 18 or 19. 10 isnt that huge of a gap these days. I know many couples with 10+ difference.
It’s not creepy. You guys are just overly judgmental. Batman risks his life every day. If he wants to have a moment of joy with another consenting adult, I think you can put down your pitchforks and stop the victim parade for 5 minutes.
"Makes Batman look like a Predator!"
Arkham game fans: You're going to have to be more specific...
wait what happens in Arkham did I miss something?
@@wholethedogsout880 No, its just that Arkahm City makes you feel like a damn lion on a rock above herd of gazelle with a gothic symphony choir playing in the skies overhead XD Go play it if you haven't!
@@wholethedogsout880 essentially stealth segments in the Arkham games are called ‘predator segments’ you know like the whole fear thing that Batman goes for. I think the skill tree that focuses on stealth is also called the predator tree but I might just be making that up. I need to replay Arkham City, been too long.
Click noises*
@@Ellimist000 I wanna play this game now...
Barbara having a crush is perfectly fine. It could even be played for laughs. Have her constantly subtly hitting on batman, and have him either turn her down annoyed every time, or have him completely ignore her and play oblivious. Could be a fun dynamic for a while. FOR A WHILE. She doesn't need to crush on him for years of her adult life and never move on. She's one of the smartest women in the world, she should realize at some point how fucked up her little crush is. And she definitely shouldn't betray one the greatest men in comics, Dick Grayson. How is it that of the two redheads he's dated, the only one that fucked around behind his back WAS'NT the super hot alien who's constantly characterized as a massive slut? Riddle me that. Babs should be better than that. She IS better than that. People at WB need to learn to say no to Bruce Tim.
17:40 thank you so much for this point. I feel like it's very natural for a girl to crush over her mentor or someone older/ more established than themselves, but it should not have to go anywhere. batman reciprocating shouldn't have been a thing. big yikes on whoever wrote that for batman...
EDIT ADD: and yeah, i agree with everything here. If they never had batman x batgirl, everything would be perfectly fine. batgirl and robin is a plausible/realistic pairing, and batman's dynamics of the team doesn't get thrown off a cliff. they really could've just had her had a crush on him that she got over.
She is not only his best friend's daughter....she is not only his adopted son's ex-girlfriend....SHE IS HIS ADOPTED DAUGHTER
She's not Superman's daughter or Batman's adopted daughter. (Hell, Commissioner Gordon still refers to Dick as "the kid".)
Yanno? The sheer amount of fail here is enough to make me ship them out of spite.
When every other Robin is explicitly Bruce's child, and then suddenly they ship Batgirl with Batman...😖
He never adopted her
@@richardshiflett5181
The dynamic makes us feel like he did. Since there all apart of the same bat family.
I know batman collects children like pokemons, but he still can't adopt someone's else kid
The one thing I hated in Batman beyond was when Bruce was looking at old pictures of his flings and had multiple Batgirl ones… ugh. That’s his best friend’s daughter
And I like batman beyond and that just kinda hurts it a bit but not too much
I know right!?
also in the comic of beyond didn't he and Barbara sleep together while she was dating dick then got pregnant and that was the reason dick leaves for good
and i think he forgave Barbara cuz she apologize but Bruce never did
I don't know guys he could be thinking fondly with those old pictures of past flings, with Batgirl in the new jet, in the kitchen, back of an alley, several rooms in his house, getting in and out of different costumes. I am surprised it didn't stop and show Bruce with a big smile on his face reminiscing. You have to think positively.
Bruce tim is a weirdo
Friendly reminder that in the long halloween, bruce is already batman when barbara goes to trick or treat
You don't f**k family, Bruce.
I’ve been saying that the Killing Joke prologue could have worked if they treated her like one of the Robins. How would you get Dick, or Tim to the edge of the “abyss?” Cuz I doubt it would be by banging Batman.
So, I saw "The Killing Joke" because it was available to view while I was on a plane. I also went in relatively-blind because I never read the comic and it had been the better part of a decade since I had seen B:TAS or BB.
I "Noped" right the hell out, only coming back to it after watching "The Lego Batman Movie" as a palette-cleanser.
----
That said, I now have a morbid curiosity to have, like, the same story retold with one of the Robins. Hell, make it the Nolan-Verse where the obvious-stand-in-for-Robin is maybe not as old as Bale's Bruce but still a full-fledged adult. Bruce comes back to Gotham, gets with the detective, idk plot things happen, tragedy...profit!
Literally think of her as Jason in Death of The Family did he bang Batman? Nope. Was he a active participant on his death, close to the abyss and the whole think was catastrophic even though he wasn't truly the protagonist of if? Yes. Would it've possible to do it if he had banged Bruce? Absolutly not. So is Barbara
Batman animated series from the 90s was outsourced to a japanese animation studio so technically its anime 🤔
czcams.com/video/cg-6lkHgfaE/video.html
*Do Not ▪︎ miss this*
Nope its a comission job not an anime
Most cartoons are animated in overseas studios, I don't think something counts as Anime until Japanese creatives get to influence the work itself (like in art design and story).
I knew people would skip right past the joke
So is G1 transformers
The stain on the BTAS universe. Almost perfect, then Batgirl shows up flirting
I agree so much after hearing this for the first time I try to forget this
I physically recoiled when I saw *that* scene, it ruined the rewatchability of The Killing Joke. It was out of nowhere and it gave me the creeps. The Batman I know would have scolded her and chewed her out for making those advances and "grounded" her from going on patrol with him.
Bruce isn't some impulsive horn dog who jumps at the opportunity every time a woman makes a move on him. It was SO out of character for the both of them. Batman is like a godfather to Barbara it's just wrong and it crossed the line.
Bruce would've had a serious talk with her about boundaries and the importance of not crossing those lines, which we all know that's something he's big on. 🙄
Oh he did chew her out alright 😏
-god I wanna skin myself alive-
When I tell you how fast I closed my laptop and had a mental breakdown from the visceral reaction I had when that scene came on is honestly hilarious, I did finish the movie to see if it was even good in the first place, and it wasn't even good so I was highly disappointed that I had to go through constant cringing when seeing them or barabara together to get a whole bunch of fucking nothing
The fact he acts like her dad in some scenes
@@enderwalkgang it's seriously so 🤢
The animated Killing Joke was a Bruce Timm Batman and Batgirl fanfic with the actual Killing Joke tacked on to the end.
The Lego Batman movie was the only one that could have pulled off this ship and they still didn't do it. And honestly, I prefer Lego Batman with Queen Watevra Wa'Nabi.
Lmfao
And even then, Barbara acted and seemed to be an older and much more mature woman in that movie instead of the "half-teen" batgirl she was in comics.
Same lol 😆
@@KraziShadowbear true 😆
Continuing to prove that LEGO Batman deserves to be up there with the best interpretations of the Batman series.
This ship summarized:
*Batgirl exists*
Batman: oh well she's a fixer upper
The law: that's a minor
The killing joke is not in DCAU canon so it is not connected to Batman the animated series
This helps me sleep at night 😌😌
The whole Bruce and Barbara thing always bothered me and it’s really not even cause of the age gap cause there are (like you said) great relationships out there with bigger gaps. The HUGE issue is Bruce getting with his sons girlfriend which is just all kinds of gross. It really does make you wonder how long Bruce had these feelings and what was going through his head while he was with his sons ex like did he feel dirty (like he should have) the entire time?? Not to mention what Barbara was thinking
It’s so bad if it happened in the mainline continuity it would fracture the entire bat family even the secondary members like Cassandra Cain or duke would have issues with it
@@a.c.slater7989 I 100% agree, honestly I guess the upside is that all of the weird versions of characters that we do see are considered alternate versions of them therefore not messing up the main continuity too much XD
@@a.c.slater7989 Facts
@@a.c.slater7989 who tf are those 3??
@@a.c.slater7989 I can imagine Tim and Steph just yelling “What The Fuck, Bruce” at the top of their lungs.
I can’t imagine any member taking Bruce’s side, except for maybe Damian. But even then…
My parents had a 15 age gap. They didn’t start dating until my mom was 20, but my dad met her when she was 17 and he was 32. So I can say with experience that you’re absolutely correct and that it is an incredibly unhealthy and very creepy dynamic. Obviously there’s a huge difference between dating someone significantly older than you when you’re established in adulthood (ex being in your 30s and dating someone significantly older), and actively preying on young people that won’t know any better. As the child of this type of situation, I can tell you it doesn’t end well.
Glad youre self aware and learning from their miatakes. Most people just go MY 42 YO DAD WAS IN LOVE WITH MY 16 YO MOM AND THATS FINE AND HEALTHY BC I NEED IT TO BE
@@stephaniewilliams6756 Seriously! I’ve seen so many of those comments myself and it makes me so uncomfortable.
Oh thank goodness someone who's in this position can agree. I hate ships with stuff like a 25 year difference, where each members' partner is younger than their kid/older than their own father. No amount of therapy makes that cool, lmbo.
@@spaghetto9836 Oh yeah. Believe me, the power imbalance is not lost on the kids of said type of relationship, too. I might not have known how to put it when I was a little kid, but I could definitely see that there was definitely something off.
@@forgetthedisharmony9740 no one wants to be the product of something disgusting
24:45 - and hence why the only form of Batgirl/Barbara crippling that I will accept as decent storytelling (overall) is the version from Young Justice where it's an injury taken in the line of duty while trying to help Cassandra/Orphan, another woman, in a way that is meant to further their character arc/relationship. That and the fact that most iterations of the "Killing Joke" style ones have Joker assaulting her as part of the trauma porn, which is just even more deeper fridging.....
The only time I have seen the "Killing Joke" style crippling handled even remotely well was a fanfic series where Barbara was the main character (or technically co-main character with Dick Grayson/Nightwing as the story progressed, but the split focus was like 70/30 on Babs overall so I'm fine with calling her the more central of the two) and since it was no longer a fridging moment purely to get reactions from the male cast, but rather something you experience from the perspective of the actual victim, I considered it tolerable. That and the fact that the rest of the fanfic was just so good that it made up for the disappointment of the "Killing-Joke-ification". That and the fact that Barbara actually gets her legs back in much faster fashion than she usually does, after a transition period where she is on a recovery stint as Oracle for the Birds of Prey, so that also helped.
We need to check the browser histories of everyone who likes this ship
The Lego Batman Movie is the one place where I wouldn't have a problem with the pairing, but you still wouldn't believe how big my grin got when he specifically called her his "platonic female coworker"
so f*cking true
Lego batman movie was the best
Uh yes, i remember, barbara and bruce in lego was wholesome ship
What's the age between them tho? In lego universe
@@kamadotanjiro3176 From what I could find Barbra is in early 20s and Batman, idk Alfred references him being like 51 in that one joke and a site (idk if it’s a relevant one) said early 30s
So lego Barbra is kinda older than a non lego Barbra? i mean, you can tell she's an adult because the way she's sounds, right?
Yeah, Batman and Batgirl never should've been a thing in my opinion and don't get me started on my biggest gripe with it, that biggest gripe being that Bruce/Batman and Barbara/Batgirl know each other through James Gordon Bab's father and one of Batman's closest allies, if Jim ever found out about them secret identity wise there's no telling how he would've reacted i mean i know he's found out Bruce's and Bab's secret identities in some incarnations but still.
This. All of this.
You're right, Jim is the one that they are hurting the most in their so called "romance" because if he found out that Batman was banging his daughter he would feel betrayed by both of them. In fact Jim's biggest question of all for Bruce and Babs would be "How could you two do this?"
@@pedanticat9479 "This. All of this" what???
@@Historybuff-mx4dvI'm agreeing with their statement, XD
@@baymaxinarmor4133 Let's take into account in the most continuities Barbara dates his SON DICK which makes it more unappealing especially for those who love the dynamic of Batgirl/Oracle and Nightwing
“While wearing the tightest pants possible”
I swear this video had the funniest quotes like I’m laughing to death every 2 seconds
“Despite his long history of giving orphan a cooler ways to die”
💀
This video was a wild ride. I hope we get a Robin x Starfire ship video.
We all dream of a seven feet tall, hairy alien girl
That would be interesting to see a video about it
This ship is why I never got around to watching the killing joke. I was super hyped when it was first announced because of Mark Hamil's return as the joker, but then I found out that the team thought it was a great idea to add a scene with Batman and batgirl on a roof. I died a little inside that day
What's even worst is what Alan Moore was told about crippling Barbara Gordon.
I like the story and comic but I always skip that part because 😬
It just reminds me of that old jontron meme: " Why?,,,Why would you do that?,,,"
Bruce and Barbara having their privacy on a roof:
Me: ... I have so many questions.
@@airtiger4577 yeaahhh, not to mention,havin worked on city roofs before i can tell you they are usually dirty ad heck and certainly not somewhere thats ideal for romantic time lol
I've read an essay that examines how Barbara x Dick wasn't a thing in the comics either until the animated series put them together at the same age. The original comics had her older than him, though not that much older that it would have been a problem once they both were in their 20s. It's weird though that the animated series is responsible for putting Barbara with BOTH Dick and Bruce. I do like her with Dick much better, though I'm not sure how Starfire fits into it all. I guess in the comics at some point, Dick x Kory were no longer a thing. Yes, the idea of Barbara x Bruce was jarring when it came up in Batman Beyond and New Adventures. The first half of the Killing Joke movie was crazy cringe, and it turns out the comics had an entirely different "Barbara quits being Batgirl just before Joker shoots her" story originally, which if you think about it is a little too convenient either way.
The whole Dick/Barbara/Kory thing is an absolute mess. I'm like a whole year behind on comics in general but really who it'll be seems to flip on a dime depending on who's writing and what book you're even reading. If it's a Titans book, it'll be Kory, but if it's a Batman one it'll side towards Barbs.
I do however know that Convergence paired up Pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths Dick with Kory whereas Post-Crisis/Pre-New 52 Dick got together with Barbara which... okay credit where it's due, that was kind of a cute solution, even if only as a one-time only thing.
I need more videos on the DCAU please! 😂 I've been shouting about this for years!
Oracle was not just superhero tech support; her code name is Barbara's persona. She was the all-knowing, all-seeing criminal investigator that superheroes look to in order to get answers when they couldn't find one. Previously being Batgirl and mentored by Batman, she's also a high-level tactician and strategist who is also competent in martial arts despite her disability. I've never read her return as Batgirl but I assume her recovery was due to her physical training and advance spinal surgery which most likely she discovered herself. The way they added her story as filler In the Killing Joke movie was disrespectful and gross. Belittling this character's story arc.
Completely agree. I was a fan of Barbara's Batgirl pretty much since the 70s when I was watching reruns of the Adam West Batman series, growing up. I always liked her as Batgirl and read whatever I could with her in it. I bought Killing Joke when it came out and was a teen at the time. I wasn't mad I went with the flow. I was curious about her as Oracle and really liked her in that role.
Then when Killing Joke was animated, I heard about the scene and wasn't happy about it. It wasn't necessary and felt like forced filler. They should have just left it out. This is the first time I've heard about her being pregnant with his kid. Glad they ditched that with a miscarriage. However that whole thing should have never happened. I liked her and Dick as a couple, and found it really random and odd that she married someone else in Batman Beyond.
I’ve honestly not read much into Batgirl’s backstory (apart from of course the basics as knew her most of all from The Batman series), especially in the long run. Only actually more relatively recently as in about two years ago, first discovered that she actually did eventually become paralysed. Let alone apparently, after a while, returning as Batgirl after getting perhaps treatment. Where exactly does all of this go down in any of the comic book stories? I’ve heard that apparently it happened quite a while ago now in terms of its graphic novel coverage!? Think I’ve read a little bit from something like the very end of the 90s or the early 2000s of something.
@@danielwhyatt3278 it was an ongoing arc that ran close to a decade between the killing Joke into late 2000's. Reduced down to a few minutes in a movie that the story doesn't even belong in. It was about a hero's journey that she chose to take on, having no tragedy or trauma making her into a hero. Instead the movie made her some kind of hot head who isn't in control of her emotions looking for validation from a mentor. Bruce and Barbara in the books were always kindred spirits that were a bond similar to brother and sister. She earned his respect as he did to her. To taint this relationship as one of lust for each other undermines both of their character.
Her return as Batgirl was “New 52 happened”. It didn’t completely retcon Killing Joke, she just got a “super-surgery”, something she actively declined for years because it wasn’t fair to the average person in the old continuity. It carried over when Rebirth happened and restored most of the old continuity.
@@amystreasuresdesign the Adam West Batman ironically had more respect to the Batgirl character than the animated killing joke did and that show was a campy satire of Batman.
The killing joke could have done w/o the ship. Not only does it feel like it sexualizes Batgirl by having all the non-familial males around em have some sexual framing (flirting criminal, Borderline rapist, abusive, controlling one night stand, and that one gay guy who’s only role is to be an ear for ranting and give advice)
The killing Joke’s focus on Batgirl’s love life was unecessary and confusing as to what the theme or message of the movie was.
It starts off as “Batgirl and Batman have a strained relationship”, and ends with, “Batman and Joker are both crazy”
@@10tailedbijuu i dunno, exploring batman’s psyche ?, as in making more parallels to how e’s also a bit looney. Anything but batgirl being hit on by anyone not gay. Or like, replace her with cat woman, and the drama makes a lot more sense. .
I mean he got his wifey Selina
Teenage girl and grow old man lol no @
I agree with you. I wish they portrayed Batgirl as Batman's daughter in the killing Joke. They could've focused on a different side of their relationship like :
- He's always trying to protect her from the dangers of Gotham, making her frustrated and feeling like he doesn't trust her enough to become her own hero.
- She's trying to become more than "the Batgirl" to him and tries to prove herself as an equal, making him distressed at the idea of loosing another child.
Portraying Batman as a mentor, and father figure loosing the equivalent of a daughter would've been much more sadder and impactful ( while being less creepy) . It also echoes with Joker's loss of his family and child.
@@ness3547 in my opinion up until a point it did feel that way. So yeah
Coming from someone who doesn't really follow batman nearly as much as the big fans of this. I can see this ship with it's age gap, and the mentor/apprentice dynamic. However once you get into the details, yea it's pretty problematic on a good day, and down right horrible on a bad.
The main thing is while we as readers want our hero's to make mistakes and come out better for it, after struggling, it makes them more relatable, i think many will agree that there is a line we don't want them to cross, because they are supposed to be hero's and not cross certain lines, they are supposed to do the right thing, that'sone of the thing's that make them heroes in the first place. Like this pairing with so many people of close relations being involved directly and/or indirectly. I would really question their competence in fighting crime if they couldn't avoid doing something that has such far reaching consequences.
To be fair, Alan Moore did later on publicly regret crippling Barbara. But this is also the guy that took a shit ton of psychedelics and worships a snake-god, so one can only ask WHY the hell didn't the editors reign him in?
From what I heard from a CZcamsr, the Killing Joke was too sacred to change and they added in more controversies.
Well, Alan famously said that editor allowed him with words "Cripple the bitch" and needed some actual Batgirl fans to make her Oracle.
Yea, to be fair, the fault should be on the editors here
Honestly though, Barbara's cooler as Oracle than Batgirl
Because Alan Moore never wrote Batman and Batgirl together as a couple and the killing joke comic is perfect. It was Bruce Timm who always wanted Batman and Batgirl together. Cuz he’s wierd
After playing the Arkham games I decided I wanted to get into Batman. So I watched the DCAU. Fantastic of course, but anytime the Commissioner Barbara would hint they had a relationship I'd internally squirm. Then I heard the Killing Joke was a great Batman story so I watched the movie, and not only was it a bad movie, but I got to see BatgirlxBatman done again, so I just assumed this was a canonical and common depiction of the two. It wasn't until I actually did some digging that I found out that it's not a common shipping, it's just something one writer keeps slipping into some of the most popular Batman media. Someone really needs to have a talk with him tbh
Yeah it's always that fricking one writer who brings this weird fetish
We all have a love hate relationship with Bruce Timm
It’s great
Yes! Read the Killing Joke comic! It's way better and a quick read👍
In the comics, she's closer to Bruce's age than Dick's.
I have never heard of this before (casual Batman viewer, very casual) and now I want eye and brain bleach.
The advert for this video being "Real Therapy" is very fitting