My Bolt-On Neck Won't Fit! Why? *Neck Install Troubleshooting - installation Tips*
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- čas přidán 10. 07. 2024
- Chapters:
0:00 An Ill Fitting Neck
1:54 The Fix
4:12 Shim Preparation
5:16 More Videos - More Problems Addressed
8:00 Outro Jam
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Router Bit: Amana Tool 47223-S
Neck Pocket Clearance Holes: • Bolt-On Neck SECRET | ...
Installing a Bolt-On Neck: • How to Install a Bolt-...
Threaded Insert Installation: • **OUTDATED: CHECK DESC...
Flatten or Deepen the Neck Pocket: • *FLATTEN or DEEPEN the...
Flatten the Neck Pocket (Original): • Try THIS On Your Bolt-...
Excellent Explanations!
Definitely subscribing, Matt. Keep them videos coming.
Thank you!
Way cool demo piece! I like your channel and look forward to a learning everything I can to help me a better builder.
Thank you so much!
My friend, I’m having major issues getting the 6 screws holes for a vintage trem (import string spacing) to come out lined up perfectly.
Not using a drill press bc I don’t have one. Using the string holes of an old Squier bridge. I widened each hole to exactly 1:8”, double taped it to precisely where the screw should go, carefully drilled holes for the outer screws, screwed it down (at this point, the holes on the bridge were perfectly positioned. I took an 1:8” drill bit, screwed in the opposite direction to make sure it was centered in each hole, then when it spun freely, I screwed a very shallow pilot hole for each. I then took a square block that has a 1/8” hole drilled by a drill press as a guide, put the drill bit through, made sure the top of the drill bit was snugly housed in each hole, reverse wound until it spun freely, held the block down and drilled down.
I installed the bridge and a couple of the holes are a hair off, causing the trem to be roughly 1/1000” off square. Need help badly!
I’ve plugged these holes with bamboo dowels more than I care to admit. It’s an absolute tragedy, but I still think I can salvage it without having to remove a whole section of Alder and plugging it.
This was very helpful as my new neck heel is too high for the neck pocket on my neck replacement project. I didn't know whether to deepen the neck pocket or remove some of the wood on the neck heel. I will need to invest in a few tools or take it to a wood craftsman to deepen the neck pocket.
Good job. I subscribed the channel. Cheers.
Perfect Explanation.
Thank you - always good to hear from you!
worth watching to the end
I like the super glue on the veneer scims. Could be useful for other issues.
Dude that flattening router bit is magic
It really is! The Amana Tool 47223-S. One of my absolute favorites. Mix that with the Stewmac Plunge Router Base and you've got one of the greatest power tools for guitar work of all time.
I've also used it mounted upside down as a miniature router table. Not recommended as it's quite dangerous but I've cut out pickup flatwork and other small parts using that method. They also make an even smaller guide bearing bit as well, which I've recently purchased. Amana Tool is leading the way.
Only company making Luthier-specific router bits that I'm aware of. Truly awesome stuff!
@@guitar_md do they come in a bunch of sizes? I think you can flatten pickup and control cavities on cheap guitars. Also could be handy when mounting pots if your shafts too short and you cant go at it with a fostener without clamping the body down and using a drill press. Love your videos keep em coming
@@smollande Yes. It works great for all of those purposes. Truly versatile.
The two sizes Amana has are 3/16" and 1/4". But here's a cheat sheet. You can go to Tools Today, and search for 1/8" shank bits to see what they have that'll fit in a Dremel. Here's a link:
toolstoday.com/search-results/?q=router+bits&page=3&filters=Shank,1/8
Lots to pick from!
@@guitar_md awesome!
I recently bought a roll of maple edge veneer to snug up bass tuner ferrules that were loose in the pre-drilled holes. Overkill, probably, but now I have several yards worth to shim neck pockets some day. 😄
You can never have too much veneer! That's for sure. It's my favorite material for shims.
You might also be able to use it for filling fret slots for fretless conversions if it's thin enough. Could even wet it out and use it as a binding material. Or use a plug cutter and make inlays out of it.
Also can be used as shim material for nuts and saddles. Definitely can never have too much.
I've never thought to use it to snug up ferrules either. Great idea!
@@guitar_md Yeah, I soaked some overnight to relax the fibers (and make the adhesive backing easier to scrape off), then rolled and rubberbanded strips around the ferrules to dry in shape. Basically made big, tight pencil shavings.
My telecaster doesn’t have the extension on the fretboard? Is this particular to vintage models.
I'm intrigued...why didn't you take all the material off the underside of the fretboard as you said that was the only part of the neck fouling? It looked like there was plenty of material to work with. No need to shim the neck then unless you had to lift the neck to lower the action..... Cheers.
The shim was necessary both for the action and also because there wasn't enough room left to rout under the fingerboard extension. The fret tang ended up almost being exposed from how little material was left at the end.
However, that aside, it's always a judgment call with the setup. A full pocket shim that isn't tapered will also have a much milder impact on lowering the action. In this case it was the perfect amount.
It's a balancing act that does require a lot of judgment calls. Part of the reason the extension was an issue was because the neck wasn't thick enough at the heel to begin with, and fully seated, the action would have been too high regardless.
The end goal is having the saddles at the desired height with the desired action. Another downside is that even if the extension had more room to come down, the saddles would have to be adjusted so low that the screws would be sticking up, which makes it uncomfortable to play. Also the pickups would have to be adjusted too low and depending on the screws the pickup uses, it might be out of range for the adjustment.
Replacing the saddle screws is completely possible of course but the shim so favorably impacted the setup, it was the most desirable option.
I'd be curious to measure a Fender and see how high the fingerboard typically extends over the top, just as a reference. It's always good to have a standard of comparison.
@@guitar_md nice one. I do a fair bit of luthering myself ...I didn't clock how close the fret wire was...that makes sense..I thought it must have been to do with the action as well.. I'm about to refret a US Tele...I'll get some dimensions for you on the overhang and thickness....think it's a US standard. I could also take a look at my strat and see how it compares. Keep an eye out...I'll post the dimms here for you. Cheers.
@@bassmandudge One more follow up:
Always a judgment call. Also note that the full pocket shim I used was not tapered, so the actual amount it lowered the action was very little.
If you run out of room to take off of the extension, a full pocket non-tapered shim can be just the ticket in order to provide more clearance without drastically affecting the action.
Had there been more room though, it would be perfectly acceptable to just take it all off of the extension. This is where it's a balancing act, when the neck has to be shimmed, and in a perfect world you want the fingerboard extension *just* clearing the pickguard for the cleanest look possible.
And sure, I'd be interested in the dimensions. Always excited to learn more and compare notes.
I have to trim off the base and heal of neck for proper height to fit in the pocket. Haven't done it yet.
Another thing I'm contending with is the end of the neck seating in the curved back of the pocket. It's probably not that big of a thing due to esthetics, but I would like a tighter seat. Any suggestions? And it's a Billy Bo body.
I always take it out of the neck pocket if possible. I've actually never taken a neck heel down beyond a very small amount.
Maple is much harder than the body wood, so you'll have a much easier time deepening the neck pocket if possible.
If I were to rout the neck heel down, I'd probably do it the same way I routed the fingerboard extension down. Just being extremely careful. I've never done this though and again would rather rout the neck pocket, which I've done many times.
There's probably a much better way of routing the neck heel down that I'm not aware of. Routing maple is always a bit nerve wracking and you have to take off very small amounts with each pass so you don't overload the bit.
If you do take it out of the pocket, which is what I'd recommend, be sure to double check your screw lengths after. Don't want neck screws going through your fingerboard so you may have to get shorter ones.
I do have a video about routing the neck pocket down for this specific issue. I have it linked in the description box but I'll grab the link now and share it in my next reply to you.
czcams.com/video/n-Q2R3LB5N8/video.html
Hi thank you for your video I don't know how you managed to mount a copy milling cutter on your dremel and I'm very interested in finding the adapter! could you tell me how to do it or where to buy what I need? thanks in advance
Sure thing! The base is a Stewmac Plunge Router Base. I'm using a Dremel 4300 but it should fit most models.
The router bit is an Amana Tool 47223-S. Quarter inch tall, quarter inch wide cutter with a guide bearing and an 1/8" shank to fit into a Dremel. No adapter needed. Amana is the only company making such a bit. They have a whole line of Luthier router bits that use 1/4" and 3/16" cutters with guide bearings.
I use them on the router table as well when doing pickguards. Usually 1/4" is the smallest I need to trace pickup and neck pocket Cavities for making pickguards. But occasionally I'll need the 3/16" to trace super tight corners.
Hope this helps
@@guitar_md thank you so much I was desperately looking for this and couldn't find it. all I have to do is buy and ship to my home in Europe thanks again
@@nico4xo812 Sure thing! Glad to help. The bits are truly amazing. Life changing for me as a guitar tech. The 1/8" shank Amana bits are incredible and I even use them along with the Dremel to start routing jobs.
Much less likely to chip out finish, and you have so much more control, and can see what you're doing -- unlike a trim router or full sized router. And all with a guide bearing.
Hope you enjoy it!
I can't find the link to the router bit in the description box.
Amana Tool 47223-S
toolstoday.com/v-12200-47223-s.html?glCountry=US&glCurrency=USD&ne_ppc_id=17660118906&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqpSwBhClARIsADlZ_TlwhNjXbCA6tEn1sVB4bdXGFW0Y9RVeUGd8xoUrKM418FOoEr6EquYaArWGEALw_wcB
I'm swapping bodies on my Jazz bass. The neck pocket is too narrow and I don't want to ruin the beautiful white blonde finish. Would a Forstner bit allow me to route it wider, without harming the finish? How about simply filing or sanding? I understand the template being the best way, but the body is undersized compared to my old Blacktop Jazz. So, I'm going to have double check all the measurements. Any help or advice is very appreciated!
I'm currently doing an assembly for someone, and have a video in progress. I never ran into this narrow of a neck pocket before -- the neck heel simply would not go in. It was at least 1/16" too narrow, and actually closer to 1/8", which is a huge amount to remove.
I'd consider this. I'm using the Telecaster version of this template:
store.potvinguitars.com/j-style-bass-neck-pocket-template/?setCurrencyId=2&sku=j-bassneckpocket-gotoh&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA3JCvBhA8EiwA4kujZlP0aocNECaEds916GULDA4dg9i8CwTdoy82VK8FnWCjR9VWgyW1tRoCrV4QAvD_BwE
It's an investment, for sure...and you'd need a router, preferably a Dremel like I have in the video, but a trim router would work as well.
But this is what I used, except the model for a Telecaster. Seems to have worked like a charm. For widening the walls of the pocket, I'd say this is absolutely essential.
I mounted the template using dowels. It has holes that should line up with the bridge holes. I did make a draw plate out of aluminum, by drilling through it with a .120" drill bit. The potvin template seems to use .120" holes. So just shy of 1/8". It helps to have a draw plate to get your dowels to the perfect size, so you can use them to securely mount the template to the body. You can use double stick tape in addition to this, like lay the tape down first, then line up the dowels and press it all together.
I've had that template for years and it's actually the first time I've used it. Never even occurred to me. Then I ran into this problem.
The Potvin template and a trim router or Dremel plunge router with a guide bearing bit are 100% the way to go, and the only thing I can personally recommend.
I'm also waiting to mount the neck on this Tele to see how it truly came out. This does depend on the holes lining up perfectly with the template, which might not always be the case. If the template doesn't line up, I'm not sure yet exactly how I'd go about making one.
Sanding by hand can work. Or using power tools like you suggested. The cleanest job will be a template mounted perfectly. But you can do it by hand and probably get acceptable results. You may be able to use a hand file. Just smooth the sharp edges of the finish over so they don't chip off while you're filing.
I've occasionally used a Woodpecker Mini Square as a sanding black. Just 3M Stikit Gold sticky back sandpaper (the best brand) attached to the Mini Square. It should keep things level while you sand the sides of the neck pocket.
You can use a scrap neck plate or other space to rest the Mini Square on top of while you sand, to get it to height.
Of course, the ideal would be a piece of flat tool steel or something similar, with sandpaper, so you could sand the entire wall at once. I might look into that.
So....by hand, a flat steel block with sticky back sandpaper would take a while, but that would get guaranteed results with no huge investment. And may even be lower risk than the router and template. You can go slow and take some off of both sides of the neck pocket until you get the fit you need.
So, after some thought, my vote goes to flat steel block + sticky sandpaper. It'll stay level and flush as you sand if it's sanding the whole side of the pocket at once.
It will take a while. But you'll get there eventually. And it will have been worth it even if it takes hours to do, once you get that fit. This also would probably be the lowest risk for chipping the finish.
Let me know if you find anything, and if you attempt it. I might be on the lookout for a tool steel block myself that I can use for this purpose, instead of the Woodpecker Mini Square.
Of course, a wooden block would do just fine. I just have a fixation on steel for the heft/feel of it. Custom cutting a neck pocket sanding block out of maple on a table saw should be quick and easy and work just as well. The end would need to be tapered to match the bottom of the pocket of course. And that might prove to be a bit more difficult than I'm anticipating.
Anyway, let me know what you think and if you try anything. This comment was just a big brainstorm and the only confirmed fix I can think of that I've tried is that Potvin Template with a plunge router + guide bearing bit.
@@guitar_md Wow! Thanks for all that! It's my birthday and this is quite the present! LOL - I have basic power tools for home repairs. I am not in a hurry and have 3 pals who may have templates. You've definitely explained what I need to know. The neck pocket is 2+1/4" so that'll be an 1/8th" off each side and then redo the "corners". I appreciate the steel block and can see that being handy for all kinds of things. I've done guitar repairs for my students since '63, but nothing too big/serious, like this. THANKS again!
@@michaelparson-mcnamara782Absolutely! And happy birthday. That's awesome. Hope you get out and do something fun today. Treat yourself!
Funny thing...you're 3/3, I assume? My birthday is 10/10. And my mom's birthday is 5/5. Interesting stuff!
Let me know how it goes. I was wracking my brain trying to figure out how to do this very job and just started recording the footage for it a week ago or so. I was going to do it by hand until I remembered I had that Potvin template and it just so happened to be for a Telecaster.
I have yet to mount the neck. This one also has no holes drilled in the neck pocket, so I've got to figure that out. I've concluded after a lot of reading online, that for finished bodies, drilling from the finished side is safest, and proper alignment/centering of the neck plate matters more than getting the holes even on the neck heel, which is totally irrelevant.
It has holes on the heel already but if I lined it up with those, the neck plate would look super messed up. Right on the edge of the pocket instead of centered and nice-looking. So....more to come with that.
Neck pocket problems are some of the worst. Very challenging to solve. A real pain! So let me know how that goes and what you end up doing. I'm always surprised that there's never a lack of challenges with this kind of work, and I've seen all kinds of crazy things. Just when you think you've seen it all.
@@guitar_md I've always paid attention to funny numbers. My folks were both born on 29th's (june nov) and I was born the 3rd part of the 3rd hour and on a Thirdsday LOL RE my new body; the bridge is not the same distance from the neck pocket as on my Fender Blacktop. SO, I'm wondering if it's a short scale body? The bridge holes are drilled and a PJ set up is routed out/paint shielded but they're not in normal places - they're closer to the bridge. So I find myself wondering if this body is for a 30" or 32" scale neck. It came from an estate sale. So no way to ask about that. I could reroute the P neck pickup hole I suppose and not worry about the bridge pickup placement. The pocket is the right length but only 2+1/4" wide and obviously the Fender J neck is 2+1/2". All in all, I'll have to make a decision or 20! I'm not a big guy, so 32" scale might be fine... but that means buying a neck. Too much thinking for a birthday, I'd say!
@michaelparson-mcnamara782 Buying a neck might be the way to go. I'm a huge fan of aftermarket necks. Someday I'd love to get into making my own as well.
But that would be my first thought. Short scale aftermarket neck -- see what's out there and go nuts with it. I do love short scale basses. The old Hagstroms are my personal favorite with their tiny necks. Very easy on the hands. Danelectro Longhorns are also super cool.
But agreed. Maybe too much thinking for a birthday! One skill I've been working on is "leaving it for tomorrow." Sometimes brainstorming is all the work you need to do in a day, and sometimes it doesn't take much. Give yourself a nice break and some well deserved rest. My biggest concern for you would be -- what plans can you think of for dinner, and will you have a dessert? Asking the big questions!
Impressive skills on the fix. For the hobbyists like myself, better to stick with quality licensed Fender parts.
Thanks! I do prefer Mighty Mite necks and have always had great results with them. They don't have issues like this. Mighty Mite is licensed by Fender.
The cheapo necks are great if you have the tools to fix them. They're so cheap for a reason. Sometimes you can luck out and get an awesome neck for 50 bucks, but most of the time necks that cheap will require some sort of accommodation or repair to get them working perfectly.
Once in a while you'll still have a mismatch with a particular body. Even a slight variation in neck pocket depth or neck heel thickness can require the use of a shim to fix. The worst case is always when the heel is too thick or the pocket too shallow and you have to take them down.
Shimming is always much easier than routing. And even now I'm refining my neck pocket flattening method as I've had some inconsistent results with my current approach, despite being very careful. Some techs and luthiers use a pin router for doing the neck pocket, and if I had one of those, that would probably be the way I'd go.
@@guitar_md I recently bought a Warmoth neck that fits perfectly on a Squier standard and classic vibe strat body.
The neck pocket of an Indio strat copy wasn't even close to a Fender.
Even the screw holes in the body and neck were off from the neck plate.
I'll stick with bodies and necks that actually fit together.
@@guitar_md how's the fret leveling out of factory on new MM necks - is much touchup needed? Thinking of replacing the whole neck on one guitar instead of a re-fret, as I also don't like the vintage radius and the heel truss rod adjust...
@@tn9tz They mostly need edging/burnishing, as the ends tend to be a bit sharp, but that's mostly it. I *always* level the frets with understring leveling (see: Rectify Master, Davide Bissoli, who pioneered this technique - Sadowsky from Warwick Basses took on his method and was a big endorser of his).
I don't like the heel adjust either. My mentor is convinced that the truss rod actually even works more effectively when mounted at the headstock, keeping in mind that the main area of action for for the truss rod is right around the 6th fret. You just get a better adjustment with a headstock mounted truss rod and most truss rods that he's seen that stop working are heel adjusters much more commonly. Not to mention the royal pain of having to take the neck off to adjust them most of the time.
If I had to have a heel adjuster I'd rather have a spoke style for sure. For head adjusters I use a regular allen wrench the long way though -- and then use an aluminum dowel that I drilled a hole through the middle of.
Or you could use a socket as a breaker bar. My favorite wrenches are the Wera Hex Plus. Expensive but worth it.
Mighty Mite is still one of the best as far as I'm concerned. My main Strat has a big peghead maple Mighty Mite neck. It was fine. But I did end up refretting it with stainless frets just to jazz it up, also re-radiused the board. I have a video series up about that but I'm slowly in the process of redoing it.
Mighty Mite looks super authentic too. Some cheap necks are good as well but it's hit or miss and most of the time the inlays just don't look right, like the 12th fret dots tend to be too far apart. Mighty Mite nails it.
Why didn't you just cut the pick guard to allow the heal to sit in the pocket properly? Far better solution.
Not a better solution at all. And for some very specific reasons:
1) Time.
Cutting the pickguard would be *far* more time consuming. You'd have to remove the wiring harness and the pickguard, rout the pickguard, test fit the pickguard with the neck multiple times, then reinstall the wiring harness, then reinstall the pickguard.
A ton of extra work compared to simply taking the neck off and routing the extension down, then reinstalling the neck.
2) Aesthetics.
Cutting the pickguard could completely ruin the aesthetics of the guitar unless your freehand routing/cutting of the pickguard was 100% perfect, 100% flawless, and traced the outline of the fingerboard extension absolutely perfectly.
This would be extremely time consuming, extremely demanding in terms of skill level, and you'd still be left with a gap between the fingerboard extension and the body anyway. It just wouldn't look right.
Fingerboard extensions always go over the top of the pickguard. This is how all manufacturers do it and there's a good aesthetic reason for it.
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Cutting the fingerboard extension requires no precision beyond setting the depth of the plunge router. There is nothing to freehand, as the guide bearing bit traces the neck heel. Cutting depth is the only variable you have to worry about.
It's done very quickly, and if you have to do it again, all you need to do is remove the neck, rout the extension, and put the neck back on.
Just taking out the wiring harness of the pickguard and putting it back in *alone* would have taken me more time than it took me to rout the fingerboard extension down twice.
Routing the extension guarantees an aesthetically perfect job with minimal effort and minimal time.
Routing the pickguard would have required a lot more skill, a *lot* more time, and it would run a *huge* risk of ruining the looks of the guitar.
Not to mention, the neck needed to be shimmed anyway to lower the action. The real problem was that the neck heel was too shallow for the neck pocket, and the fingerboard extension was too thick to begin with.
This directly addresses both of those problems.
@@guitar_md I disagree completely. The proper solution and the better solution is to trim the pick guard. But I do understand your defense of your method. I see you saying you don't not have the skill set to do it right. That's cool. You got it done and that's what counts.
@tomford8286
Why would trimming the pickguard be better? I'm curious about your reasoning. I'm always open to alternative opinions as I like to consider as much as possible when doing any repair or modification work.
If I have a solid enough reason to do something differently, then I will be doing it that way tomorrow.
I've made many hundreds of pickguards and templates from scratch. I always prefer template routing. Freehand work, not so much.
You might be like my mentor, who is highly skilled in freehand routing and cutting.
So I agree -- if someone doesn't have the skills, other options are fine, as long as the same goal is accomplished. For me *personally,* trying to fit the pickguard would have been a nightmare, and I know for a fact that even if it ended well, it would have taken me a very long time and included a lot of stress and anxiety.
For someone like you or my friend, maybe it would be a walk in the park. He usually is able to trim pickguards to fit properly *very* quickly, and perfectly. He's been doing guitar work full time since 1968.
That is something I've never been able to do despite trying very hard for many years. I'm definitely a template guy, and I think I even struggle much more than most people when making my own templates from scratch. Part of the reason I come up with some of the techniques I do is so people like me who aren't really artisans and struggle with freehand work can have more reliable and easier ways to accomplish different jobs.
But again, curious about your reasoning aside from the speed of the job. No sarcasm either -- will just add this to my notes.
I appreciate the respectful discussion by the way. I've gotten a lot of comments recently with people insulting me or calling me an idiot, and it gets stressful to deal with. I don't mind criticism and I appreciate that you disagreed with my technique in a respectful way. I'm always open to learning new things and improving my skills.
@@guitar_md Because doing so leaves the neck unaltered. By modifying the neck you have made it specific to that guitar. Somewhat defeating the parts caster axiom. My point is you got the result you wanted, which is great. I just think there was a more direct way without needing a router. It also appears the string saddles are very high which would not be the case in my scenario, which leaves the string geometry very close to the original.
@@tomford8286 A good point. I do understand.
It is a permanent modification for sure, although the pickguard modification is as well -- like if you wanted to go back to using a neck with no fingerboard extension on that guitar, then the pickguard would have a huge empty space that will only look good with a neck that has a fingerboard extension.
A pickguard is much easier to make a copy of than a neck, though, for sure. A neck being permanently modified is a big deal.
If you wanted to be doubly careful you could make a routing template of the original pickguard before cutting it down, so in case you ever wanted to go back to a normal, non-fingerboard extension neck, you'd be able to make a replica of the original pickguard to accommodate it.
I do agree about the original geometry. Usually I am very careful about setting saddle heights, and deliberately adjusting neck angle to alter the height of the saddles as desired.
On my own guitars, I prefer the saddle height screws to stay below the top of the saddle, so they don't stick up and dig into my hand. I also prefer the saddles to be as low as possible, for the reduced break angle, which seems to make the strings easier to bend.
It's a trick I've used many times for people complaining that their guitar feels "stiff" -- usually I'll find the saddles are jacked all the way up, and even though the action might be perfectly reasonable and low, the strings feel really tough to bend.
Sometimes I've shimmed the *front* of the neck pocket to raise the action up high, so it requires bringing the saddles almost all the way down to get the correct action.
And the reduced break angle from doing that does seem to make string bending easier, making the strings feel less 'stiff.'
I've heard this referred to as 'compliance,' as break angle doesn't affect string tension. But it does seem to affect how much they resist being bent. I'm not a physicist but I suppose it's the same concept as a wraparound bridge being easier to bend strings on than a TOM bridge with the stop tailpiece nailed all the way down to the top, creating a sharp break angle.