Film Washing Method Test
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- čas přidán 24. 08. 2024
- This week I am repeating a test I conducted years ago looking at the effectiveness of the different published methods for washing your film to archival standards. I am using the Kodak HT-2 Residual Hypo testing solution from Photographer’s Formulary, the fixing solutions I am using are Ilford Hyper non-hardening fixer, Kodak Hardening Powder Fixer, and Kodak Hypo Clear.
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Just about the only CZcams channel that approaches darkroom technique in a scientific way. Thanks so much for your work.
Thank Gregory. Here in California, we're in a perpetual drought and I need to wash my film efficiently. This video is very helpful.
I have always intended to run a test like this but you've saved me a lot of time. I personally prefer a hardening fixer so it's good to confirm that hypo clear is required. I always use it but I've never confirmed my results. It's also nice to know that I don't need the high flow rate I've been using.
This is extremely helpful. I am clearly over washing my film. I’ve been doing 5 minutes at a much higher flow rate plus hypo clear. Time to simplify.
Thanks - it seems like I can relax my extended Ilford washing method a bit and see what happens :)
This was a very interesting video. I started developing film in a basement darkroom and used the running water method (set way higher than necessary, apparently). I switched to the Ilford method when I moved where water is expensive and the "cold" is > 80F all summer. It minimizes the amount of water needed and allows me to use water from gallon jugs kept in the air conditioned house until needed.
Thanks pal, I've been going round in circles worrying if my negs would vanish or something without the hypo, you are a star x
Thanks for this. I'm getting back into shooting film after a few years away and I always used the Ilford invert and dump method (with an extra 5 inversion cycle at the start) and a non hardening fixer. None of my 40 year old negs are showing any signs of poor washing, so I guess I'm doing OK, but it's nice to get this reassurance.
Thanks for this. Washing issues usually only show-up years later when it is too late. So it is reassuring to know whether or not a technique works. I have to say I had relative confidence in Ilford's 3 steps wash and was adding a short running water wash afterward. I don't see the point anymore. Very useful. Thanks.
Fantastic informative video. I go beyond the Ilford method by adding a couple more wash cycles with extended soaks 3 to 5 minutes just to get most of the purple dye out.
I noticed the water temperature makes a difference, with warmer water clearing faster. These days I use a machine that continuously rotates my Patterson tank (B's processor) for developing, stopping, fixing, and washing. For washing I change the water twice; once after 4 minutes, then again after 12 minutes. Seems to totally clear it.
I recently realized that I didn't know what I was doing in that I thought the purpose of fixer was to remove the purple from the film and washing was just to clean off the fixer. I tried the Ilford wash method fairly recently and was quite surprised has clear the film was. Much quicker process too although I still felt "unconvinced" and tended to be more aggressive with the agitation.
super helpful! really appreciated this one, there is so much "information" out there but this really boiled it down to what matters for actual use.
Thanks for such an in depth exploration of washing film.
I started using a force film washer last year hooked up to my tap for 6-8mins. The purple stains are gone and I can clean up while its washing so its mush easier. Great video showing this.
Back when I was using rapid fixer, I found excellent results using a dedicated film washer. I never washed mynfilm in the tanks for no particular reason.
I'd wash film for about 20 min. Maybe it's the soft water we have in the Northwest. Anyway, I do strictly large format now and ilford fix because it's more available now. Back in the Kodak days I was getting rapid fix in the 2 gallon bottles, I was cooking that much film. To the point, you're absolutely correct; follow the directions.
Can you make a video on cleaning dirty negs. I have some negs that have been stored close to a flor heater and some of the plastic sleeves got stock on the film. I’ve got a cleaning solution but haven’t been brave enough to use it yet.
Thanks! I just purchased my first hardening fixer - good to know that hypo clear is a good idea!
Watching from New York City, remembering the photolab I used to work at.
Wow ! Great video. Looks like I'm doing my washing, correctly, too. Using Legacy non-hardener fixer followed by hypo and a 5min wash. Thanks . KB
Very informative, generally use the Ilford method with my non hardening fixer though go for an extra rinse for safety. If I ever use a hardening fixer I will follow your advice on using a hypo eliminator.
perfect! good to know all this, I personally use ILFORM method since decades and I'm fine with it
Thanks for this video. It is interesting to see similar test with FB photo papers of different weights
In "The Economics of Photographic Washing" paper, The method described for washing is basically Ilfords, but includes letting the tank sit for 5 minutes in between each inversion cycle. Ilfords own chief researcher, L.F.A Mason has even cited this exact method
Thank you. Good to see these tests.
Thanks very much!!! Very helpful!!!
Awesome video! I would really appreciate similar video about washing papers.
I would love to see a video on the different fixing options comparing hardening and non-hardening fixers and situations where you might choose one over the other for a particular film or if you had overexposed underexposed pushed pulled or chosen a specific developer. Thanks for the video!
I would use a hardening fixer for soft emulsion films like Fomapan. After that it’s just a buying decision.
@@TheNakedPhotographer Is ILFORD hard or soft emulsion?
And for FOMAPAN I use FomaFix, so that is a hard fixer I suppose...
How can I determine if I have soft/hard fixer?
Great job
Interesting video and cool T-shirt
I use the Ilford method, but I use 6X water change for conventional films fixed with non-hardening fixer, and 8~9 water change for T-Grain emulsions. T- Grain emulsions bleed a pink dye for quite a while. I wash until the water runs clear. Nothing scientific, but this gives me piece of mind. I used yo use the running water method in the 80s and 90s, but Ilford method is more environmentally friendly.
What a nice and informative episode, thank you!
Thanks for going through all this work to make this video. I'm relieved that i switched to rapid fixer a long time ago haha.
I'm curious about the results of a similar test for c-41 and e6. How much do you have to wash to get rid of that nasty blix?
WHEW! So glad to know it's this easy. I've been zealously over-washing for years... However, could you PLEASE do a video on how to get the clearest base possible??? Especially with Tmax films, but more or less with all films, I can almost never get the base with no purple/pink stain. If I use brand new fixer and brand new hypo clear and was a lot, I can get it pretty good, but I have to imagine any purple is going to affect the contrast- and unpredictably so if the stain is inconsistent. I can't be mixing fresh fixer every time I dev film-- surely there must be a way! Help us, oh great NP!
Excellent informational video, thank you!
Thank you for the informative video. I'm sure it was a lot of work. Thanks again!
This is SO COOL
Informative as always!!
Great video! I use kodafix right now, might switch to a different fixer as I’m not sure that I need the hardener. I wash for 30 minutes now but less washing would be nice.
Love your videos. Very informative and exhaustive for us overanalyzers 😂
My current washing method is a slight modification on the Ilford 3-step method, wherein I use drinking water (not tap, as our tap water has high levels of calcium and rust due to ancient piping) after the last step, and agitate for 20 times.
Great video!
Sorry to hear you left Photrio.
THat's a very nice demonstration of washing. I use the Ilford method, but I usually overkill it; I go 5, 10, 15, 20. However, I do have a question: You did this with a small strip of film; how can you be sure that washing a full roll with any of these methods won't produce a different result? Thx.
This is what I do too. The extra step isn't necessary, but also it definitively won't hurt. So why not.
I stated at the beginning that this is the second time I’ve done this project. The first time I used full rolls (funded by a university then) and I got the same results.
Wow, really cool video!
Brilliant. How about the same for print washing for rc and fibre. Running water vs changing water...
Thank you for this!!!
Thank you for that informative video. One question: What is the benefit of using a hardening fixer?
Soft emulsions like Foma will be more durable
Well, this addresses a question which has been bothering me lately. I've never had a problem with under-fixed film, but you still wonder. In my situation, I use non-hardening fixer and a hypo eliminator, followed by wash in the reels in a washing tank designed to hold up to 4 120 reels, fills and agitates to the top of the reels, then trips a siphon which evacuates the used water and then refills to repeat the process. Alternatively, for just one reel I use a slow continues flow. Either for at least ten minutes. For color films, the tank system I use favors a continuous water flow, entering at the bottom of the vertical reels and overflowing out the top. I dump that tank for a fresh refill a couple of times over the total wash time.
Are you using a hypo clear or hypo eliminator? They are different solutions and Kodak warns against a hypo eliminator because it makes emulsions brittle.
@@TheNakedPhotographer It is classified as a hypo eliminator. I'm not aware of Kodak's caution. I have used it on film and paper for 40 years without incident. I compound it from a formula published years ago in the Dignan Newsletter. I have never done a with/without comparison test of it, so I have gone on faith that it is effective. As to film processing, I doubt omitting it would make a difference in outcome. When I first started using it, I used it on fibre-based paper and ran hypo tests, which were very positive.
If it’s the Kodak HE-1 formula with hydrogen peroxide and ammonia then you may want to reconsider using it. After the 1970’s Kodak warned against its use since prints were cracking from being too brittle. Turns out a tiny amount of residual fixer is needed to keep the gelatin flexible.
Under what circumstances would hardening fixer for film be beneficial? Beside making washing more difficult, are there any other harms from hardening fixer?
Hardening fixers are used typically in older film stock to keep the emulsion stable while wet, esp. when drying. Nowadays though most film stocks are prehardened, though AFAIK Efke film and ADOX CHS 20 II need to be finished with hardening fixer.
@@studiosnch I would also recommend hardening fix for Fomapan films.
Per other comments, modern B&W films from the major manufacturers are pre-hardened. This has been the circumstance for more than 40 years. If your film selection strays into the second tier makers, as others note, there may be a need to use hardening fixer to avoid scratching the unhardened, wet emulsion. If you go for films from repackagers, like Lomo, they are selling various emulsions, often from different sources under the same repackaged name. For these, you'd do best to either test what you get or demand to know what fell off the back of a truck for their sales.
You've cover all the main variations - thank you.
Excelente video ❤️👌🏽
Excellent video, thanks a lot! :-)
That must have been recent on photrio. I remember you on one thread and a couple people were being arses to you. I suggested blocking them but you took the nuclear option 😄
Have someone tested fomafix (liquid) fixer for that test? Is is non-hardening? I read few contradictory sources and foma do not reveal its liquid concentrate ingredients nor they state which kind of fixer it is. I can buy ilford rapid fixer but it is so expensive in Poland and fomafix costs ca. the third.
I just started developing my own sheet film and only have about 10 sheets of HP5 under my belt. I've been using kodafix and have been pretty haphazard with my washing, just 10 minutes with somewhat random water changes and inversions. They come out without even a hint of purple which I noticed in your video seemed to correlate with the failing hypo tests. After watching this I'm definitely going to start using hypo clear from now on, but I'm wondering if should also use it on all the negatives I've already developed so far and re wash them?
What fixers are hardening and non hardening?
I'm curious to see your opinions on another test like this with liquid detergent. Which is what I use, after a few fill and dumps. And then using the detergent with ilfords wash method. I put in about a drop to two drops and then lightly stir it to ensure no bubbles.
I haven't had any damage on my negatives at all over time. And it makes a nice slip for squeeging the film afterwords (I use a rubber one. Cleaned and warmed in hot water every time.
No thank you
Awww okay
👏👏👏👍
Hi,
Great video, thanks! Have you done similar tests for paper washing? I'm asking because I'm trying to improve the archival quality of my prints to prevent yellowing with time. Do you use things like Stabinal for a final wash? Thanks again!
Not yet but I plan to at some point. I don’t use anything but water for print washing
@@TheNakedPhotographer OK, thanks!
I've ALWAYS used the Ilford method, but as I am now engaged in building my own darkroom, I would consider other methods and as a lazy photographer, the attraction of just leaving something whilst I get on and do other stuff is high. BTW, do I detect a comb-over coming on??? just sayin'...
That last part is just insulting and unnecessary.
Thanks. Even at that low flow rate that's still 11L for a single 35mm tank if you rinse for 30minutes... Ilford rinse for the win I guess. Question, how does Ilford's wash aid come into the equation? Also, a noob question, do you store your BW film in the fridge, I read that you shouldn't - bit confused.
Wash aid is Ilford’s name for hypoclear. Both Ilford and Kodak say cold storage is good for unexposed film, bad for exposed.
Thanks for the video. What the method do you use? Can you test another time with full 36 roll with your washing method?
I use a five minute running water.
The effect of water temperature ?
The colder the water, the less effective the wash
TIL I have been way over washing my film hahaha
I just bought a bulk roll of foma 200 would you recommend using hardening fixer with it?
Absolutely
@@TheNakedPhotographer Being young I never had to use an hardening fixer before, I’ll keep in mind to use some hypo clear to wash off this kind of fixer. Thanks for your time.
Hi, men!
What you mean for "hardering fixer"? {excuse me}. May be it's a rapid fixer? For example, Ilford rapid fixer? And "non-hardering fixer" is neutral fixer? Explain for yourself, please.
Ilford fixers do not have a gelatin hardening chemical in them, but Kodak fixers do or can be added.
@@TheNakedPhotographer thank you
I find myself washing my filling and emptying the tank 3 times while shaking it as hard as i can🤣i got no patience for washing film and also the same principal with fb prints i hit with a shower head at full force for 60sec thats it haha
Chemist here. A lot of chemical processes are what we call diffusion limited. There are two phases that do not mix, in this case emulsion and water. What determines the amount of time for the process to complete is diffusion out of the emulsion. This diffusion takes place inside the emulsion. Flow rate and agitation of the water have little effect because the limiting process is not in the water. You need a little flow rate or a little agitation and changing to keep diffusion through the water from becoming another limiting factor, but increasing flow rate or agitation beyond that little amount has essentially no effect.
Greg didn’t mention this, but temperature does have an effect. Diffusion is a strongly temperature dependent process.That’s true of pretty much any diffusion process. Temperature measures the speed of random molecular motion and diffusion is random molecular motion.
Hardening has a side effect of slowing hypo diffusion out of emulsion. Hypo clearing agent largely restores the diffusion rate.
Is adofix plus a non-hardening fixer?
Check the bottle
Thank you for doing this! I've been wondering if my method of washing was too much or not. After this video, I'll probably try to use a slower flow of water.
One question I've been wondering, how much does the temperature of the water used in the wash matter?
I try for normal room temperature, but sometimes the water is a little cooler. Obviously very hot water would probably would be bad.
My test was at 20°C, but you can use a temperature range of 18-24°C without a time change
👊 P-R-O-M-O-S-M!
Lol, I just fill and dump 5 times and on the 6th just use photo flo.
That’s probably not enough
@@TheNakedPhotographer Kodak lied to me? :( I don't just fill and dump, I use the reel holder and slosh the reel up and down until water is filled to the brim.
Without testing I couldn’t say if that adequately washed the film or not
@@TheNakedPhotographer Any way to tell? Or do I just have to wait and see over a few years.
@@Adrian-wd4rn Did you watch the video? He shows how to do that...