BLACK & WHITE REVERSAL Developing Without a Kit | Slides from Negative Film
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The basic written steps for this process can be found over on my Patreon (accessible to everyone): www.patreon.com/posts/61038241
This is an incredible amount of work, thank you for putting together this research! It's really a shame that projecting film is a very small niche of the already niche film photography community. I feel like all reversal films (or in this case negative films made into reversal films) are their best when projected onto a nice big surface.
He wanted to reinvent the wheel and came out with a hexagonal shaped one.
As always, bravo for another thoroughly researched, easy to understand, and well-produced video! Back in the 1990s when I making 16mm B/W reversal films, processing everything myself (using battery acid and potassium dichromate) I felt I might have been the last person on earth dedicated to this esoteric craft. I never imagined 20 years later I'd be watching a video about b/w reversal by someone so much younger, and that I'd actually be learning something from them. Amazing.
Thanks for this, I was confused why nobody was just selling B&W bleach by itself, now I know that the reversal process is more involved than âadd an extra step and expose to lightâ
6:00 i have access to dichromate and sulphuric acid, a fume hood to mix the powder, and a safe way to dispose of it.
My main struggle is that i have yet to find a developing tank that will not randomly decide to leak that day. All the tanks i tried work perfectly leak free one day, then decide to drip the next day, and the day after are perfectly fine again - no matter how firmly i screw down the lid.
If it weren't for those stupid unreliable tanks, i'd be using the dichromate.
If you cannot guarantee that not a single droplet of dichromate-based bleach will spill, do not work with dichromate. It's one of the nastiest chemicals out there.
Not film related but that beard is at the perfect length. Looking very handsome brother
My current go-to BW reversal film is Arista EDU 400, shot at box speed. My process is pretty slow, but the slides are probably as close to perfect as I'll ever get. All at 68°F (20°C), I develop with Arista paper dev for 17 minutes 30 seconds (Constant agitation), wash for 15 minutes (Peroxide bleaches seem to make the film brown if there's any trace of this paper dev, probably could be shortened for copper), then bleach with copper sulfate bleach (For every 100ml water, add 5g copper sulfate crystals, 5g non-iodized salt, and 1g citric acid) for 10 minutes (constant agitation), wash for 6 minutes, 2 minutes 30 seconds in 2% ammonia (Constant, needs to have no additives), wash for 6 minutes, 6 minutes in a clear bath (20g sodium sulfite in 1 liter of water), wash 6 minutes, then redevelop for 10 minutes in Iron-Out (The toilet cleaner, add 40g to 1 liter water, filter before use, no reexposure needed), wash for 3 minutes, then fix and rinse as normal.
I really like using this specific process because the bleach lasts seemingly forever, ammonia is cheap, the developer is easy to buy, and way too many places sell Iron-Out. Wish more people talked about copper sulfate bleach as an option, as it doesn't destroy the emulsion like permanganate does. The only downside I know of is it doesn't work for films that use silver chloride, which is a very small minority of film. Also ammonia is stinky, so using a lid on the tank is recommended for that step.
Another niche version of BW reversal involves developing with paper dev, then using BW toner in the wrong order, which will convert the undeveloped silver into something else (Silver selenide for selenium, silver sulfide for sepia), then the bleach will make the rest of the silver removable with fixer, leaving just the toned positive. I've got the chemicals for this version of the process, and plan to try it out over the weekend.
Arista EDU 400 is just Foma 400 rebranded
@@dian_photo Yeah, but the Arista branded film is cheaper in the US.
The cute little rainbow in the background â€ïžâ€ïžâ€ïž
thank you for telling us about the developer when i wachted it got easer and now im a few steps away from making instant roll film. thank you
Just had my first success using Ilford Multigrade dev and Hydrogen Peroxide. Thanks for your no-nonsense adviceđ
Thanks for assembling all that for folks to follow! Saw my blog quoted đ. You probably know this, but you can use copper sulfate from the garden section in place of the ferric chloride. But of course thereâs a point where you have a thing working and why mess with it.
So much great stuff in this video! Now I know why trying to reverse non-reversal black and white film was always crap hahaha
Great work, man. This kind of content really sets ya apart.
Thanks for producing this video. I have always wondered why there isn't any black & white reversal film. Good luck with this work in progress. Hope others on here are able to share their experiences.
Thank you so much for this. Just picked up a PCP-80 and canât wait to project B&W
What a hero. Thanks so much for this. You've made it all a lot less scary to have a go at!
With the vinegar and peroxide photographic bleach, for one roll, you, need 60 mL of vinegar for every liter of hydrogen peroxide, take 350 mL of it and microwave it for 50 seconds at 1100 watts, it will fizz when bleaching is taking place, wait for a minute after the fizzing stops, then you can expose it to light, and then reuse the first developer. The positives will have a yellow tint, soak the film in tap water for 5 minutes, dump out the water, then replace with 350 mL of water, 1 teaspoon or 15 mL of citric acid powder, and 3 teaspoons or 45 mL of sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous) powder stirred up, soak for 7-1/2 minutes. Then rinse the film good as usual.
I would like to add that you should make sure you rinsed out all of the first developer from the film, otherwise it forms a coating and no force on earth will get the film to bleach ever again, no matter how hot the peroxide/vinegar solution gets!
I know your channel is more cinema/motion picture focused, but man more of this geeky darkroom content in 2022 please! This was so cool to watch! â€ïž
excellent video, i have been trying black and white reversal for the last year and i've got mixed results.
i used the permanganate bleach made from scratch from components i bpught from a chemical store. this bleach really softens the emulsion so you need to be extra careful when handling the film when it's still wet.
the best results i've got yet have been with ilford panf and pq universal development using the ilford recomended technique. it gave me some really nice positives with dense shadows and a slight warmth tone in the highlights. now i'm using the fomadon lqr developer since it's the one used in the foma kit and using fomapan 100 classic but i dont seem to get the same density in the unexposed areas such as the sprocket holes as with the ilford technique, being the developer the only difference between the two trials so i guess i need to let it longer in the second developer. otherwide it's a super entertaining process and very rewarding if you get good results
Brilliant video Noah.You put a lotof hours into that, thanks. Great Info, but also great pace, presentation, B roll etc. Respect.
Would love to see a working Fomapan R100 process. And then see some great Super 8 and 16mm films from it.
An excellent tutorial! I have experimented with the Ilford process and it has been difficult to get good results. Getting the required chemicals here in UK hasn't been a problem though. My biggest challenge has been that the process (I suspect the bleaching phase) has melted the film emulsion to varying degrees. I am now motivated to pick this up again following your guidance. Thanks!
This is so good. I've also experimented a little with B&W reversal using the method over at "Go Everywhere". Initially, they came out a bit dark, but it worked. The downside is as you said, the developer has a limited shelf life. Thanks for the detailed info. I've been wanting to project B&W slides. Will bookmark this and come back to it for future experiments.
Great video! Respect for your effort and practical approach! I will try!
Truly an insane undertaking but no one does it like Noah! Really impressive work and results- we canât thank you enough! Canât wait to process my own! (With your help đ€Ș)
Dude that's awesome!!! I knew there were chemical re-exposing methods for E-6 but didn't think about that for BW that's neat! Super wild given you can just buy it fro mthe hardware store. Wow!
As far as the audience, I've been looking at reversal for glass plates. I managed to get my hands on the Adox kit so we'll see how that goes. I didn't think mixing one's own chemicals for reversal was in the realm of reason so in the future switching over to something like what you mention here might be worth it but I'll see how the positives come out. It's part of a bigger idea to try and do old school portraits for local market days where I can give folks a positive - either an ambrotype or I think more preferable a true positive. Neither method is all that easy to do in the field so also was looking at paper negatives and making contact prints to make positives or something. Anyways that's the reason I've been looking at positives for BW.
great work, keep it going i love your channel. I do feel it when you say chems are hard to find. Living in Chile i wasnât able to find e6 so thanks to the channel go everywhere i was able to develop e6 alternative
Amazing, i was just wondering about b&w reversal yesterday
Ha! I was a kid, and got my supplies from Superior Bulk Film Co. to do black and white reversal 8mm movie film. Nobody said anything about bleach being caustic. I remember those orange crystals and happily mixing them up. Got good results too, and I'm still here.
What a great video!!! And, for someone who likes playing around with this sort of stuff, I'll be bound to try this out at some stage. I'm an old school chemistry set guy, so I've been interested in all sorts of "smelly" chemistry things for a very long time. This sort of thing is right up my alley!!
Thanks for this. But please, be aware that Kodak entirely changed HC-110 acc. to Anchell and Troop in the latest edition of the Film Developing Cookbook. It may not perform as you expect.
Thanks for pointing that out! My experience and examples in this video are done using the modern HC-110.
This is an awesome video. Definitely something to try out and see how it works out.
Extremely interesting as always and even more
Great stuff. Thanks so much for sharing!
Thanks for a great video. Id love to try reversal developing some day.. and I guess i'll be seen as less crazy for keeping a few slide projectors stashed away XD
The B&W reversal film was quite common in the 60s and 70s, I have a bunch of B&W slides on AGFA film from my uncle. They lived in the middle of nowhere in Argentina, and had access to this :) I did notice though that the slides look a bit more washed out than a B&W negative.
On a second look, I've found a few cases of the same photo in both reversal, and negative. so I think, mean I got the crazy idea that they might have contact printed the negative on top of another B&W roll, do you think it's doable ? would it produce a positive worth the effort ? I noticed the reversal prints don't have much grain as a negative, and are a bit more washed out. Also, the sprocket holes on the positive are exposed, and show sprocket marks that suggest contact printing. I can send you photos showing this if you want, and also for comparison between negative scan vs. positive scan.
I've also noticed on the positive B&W film, that they are printed on the wrong side of the film, IE, like loading the film with the emulsion to the back... Was trying to figure out how they could load the film the wrong side on the camera LOL
I mean the contact is done emulsion to emulsion, effectively reversing the print, which means, when DSLR scanning it on the emulsion side, the image is already on the correct orientation, no need for horizontal flip.
the video we've needed!!! i've used the potassium dichromate recipe... didn't know it was carcinogenic đŹ
didn't use a proper apron and i remember getting stuff all over me đ anyways, great video!
Dude this is beyond amazing
I would also recommend just buying weigh paper or weigh boats. Thats what we used for weighing out powders for college chemistry courses
Great work, thanks for all the great Info! I was turned on to the iron out by "General Treegan" (Andres Prado) an alternative developing guru. Wicked cool that you made this Vid!
Hey there, quick update I successfully developed some k40 using your times and the bleaching method you presented. I have not been able to make the iron out work yet but this is very exciting! Thanks again Noah great work
The most interesting and unique aspect of your process is the chemical fogging that you get by using Iron Out. I have not seen chemical fogging for B&W reversal before, and can't find any references in Anchell or Troop books, who recommend using a light. Examining the list of chemicals in Iron Out, we can recognize some typical developer components: (1) Citric Acid (Vitamin C?) is a developer, (2) Sodium Metabisulphite is a typical preservative, (3) Sodium Carbonate is a typical accelerator. No restrainer that I can see. So the only potential fogging agent would be the Sodium Hydrosulphite or possibly something not listed in the ingredients. The question is: can a separate agent be mixed that does the reversal fogging so that a more conventional developer can be used for the final development stage? This might simplify the overall process and give better control over the final steps. (However these last steps are "to completion" so adjustments to exposure, etc. are too late at that point. ).
After some reading I found that the magic ingredient is Sodium Dithionite. "Iron Out ... is often used for this by photo hobbyists because it's got quite a lot of sodium dithionite". Also Kodak's fogging developer, FD-72, uses Sodium Dithionite as the reversal agent.
This is great! Iâd love to see you do this on some super 8 or 16mm
hello, the audience is me haha, I'm a film instructor and experiment with 16mm. I will try to apply your methods to 16mm reversal b&w film to hopefully get the intended positives so that I can play it outright in the projector. thank you infinitely
I've also done a more recent version! czcams.com/video/vlYVI31WnIw/video.html
I had shot two rolls of Adox Scala 160 about 4-5 years ago and I have been too afraid to try developing them at home... This gives me slightly more confidence... I appreciate the video!
It is also great to find out about labs that still develop and mount!
Really informative. Thanks. I've done it with resin coated paper - which is fun but not great looking, kind of like an old photo booth because that is what it is. Now I'm looking to use it for some Fomapan R 100 Double 8 as possibly cheaper than buying their kits.
Absolutely fascinating đđ» đđ»
all I have is Rodinal and d-76 at home but prob gonna try this with Rodinal for testing with fp4 today. really fascinated by all this! thank you for the video!
I tried âGo Everywhereââs method a while back, I absolutely loved projecting the slides even though some of them were a little funky! I only scanned my favorite photos for the composition- projecting is my main use for the slides. Canât wait to try your method!
His process isn't terribly stable (I went through just under 10 brands of peroxide), but it helped me get my foot into the door with BW reversal with how few additional chemicals it needed, so it's still a must watch/try.
I didn't even know this was a thing! Thank you for showing me the new rabbit hole to dive in to. Probably still out of my league, though.
Second Exposure: Get a Flashlight, a big white bowl, fill it with water put the reel with film inside. flash it 10-15cm from above diagonal 4-8times, turn it by 90 degrees after every flash, so you cover each side once or twice. flip the reel over and flash it like before...
This is great! Thanks!
Excellent research and trial end error testing!
From my perspective slides are a great experience!
I would rather go for a adox kit as I can order it as I live in Europe!
Have a good week!
This video is pure gold.
Amazing research and work. Would love to eventually try it. For now I would be happy if a manage to get my hands on some E-6 kit and develop my own Ektachrome 35mm film and super 8 film. I live in Colombia and availability of specialized photography stuff is near zero, must import everything at a very high expense and many chemicals have shipping restrictions which makes it even more difficult. Thanks and respect, please keep up the great work.
Agfa Scala film had it processed by Dugal lab in NYC 1980's great film!
I've done conventional E-6 processing with good results. The first developer is the critical one, as it is with your processing. No light bulbs needed, unlike earlier reversal processes.
D-19 is magic as far as I'm concerned. I use it as the 1st and 2nd developer without any additives for 100 and slower speed film at box speed. 400 speed films (Tri-X and Delta) perform just as well when rated at 100. It has the benefit of utilizing all the silver present in the emulsion to give maximum blacks and preserve subtle highlight detail otherwise fixed away by the first developer. The ferric chloride / ammonia 2-step bleach you describe operates on the curious fact that ammonia selectively fixes the silver chloride created by the bleached silver, but leaves behind the primarily bromide based emulsion coated onto the film.
D19 is what Iâd like to try next for this process!
@@AnalogResurgence The D-19 recipe in this video appears to be correctly transcribed from the Kodak J-1 data booklet. I've had success with the same formula albeit substituting a molecular equivalent of anhydrous K2CO3 for the washing soda. 16mm 7266 and 135 Tri-X/Delta 400@100 7'30" @ 20C is a good starting point. I'm 48 stereo frames into roll of Pan F 50@25, which I'm still trying to get the hang of in D-19. The extra stop of exposure is probably overkill and I may need to pull the 1st development... but anyway.
A great presentation to start the new year. Thanks and good luck!
FP4+ once again proving to be the GOAT.
Smooth negatives, beautiful positives, and a perfectly workable speed. You can do anything to it and it won't care, it's just as versatile as Tri-X (maybe more so, but it's not as fast as Tri-X is.)
I still have an old roll of scala 200 sitting around never used it.
Very interesting project. I wonder how Ortho+ might work.
Honestly the idea of sepia slides is very intriguing.
Great video. I will probably not use your DIY solution - but the information is very useful nevertheless!
I had been reading about the Iron Out method, happy to see it covered here. Not sure if anything like it exists in Europe, though, but I suppose there are ways of replicating it with the mentioned ingredients.
In Europe, Dylon Pre Dye works. But after a lot of experimentation I still suggest a regular developer and exposure to light.
FINALLY
I did some B&W reversal back in the 60's using the Kodak kit and Pan X film. Nice results but of course, no longer available.
Maybe I will try again.
Thanks!
Very interesting, thanks. Question: Ever tried cross processing Ilford XP2 with E-6?
quality stuff
And here i was, about to complain that the bellini kits asks for six baths with washes in between. Seeing that you even had to mix your own chemicals, I reconsider how lucky i am to just be able to buy the ready made kits :) I developed Fomapan 100 (non-R) and it came out very high-key but useable. Kentmere 400 came out dark and low in contrast, but still very useable. Then again, the kit said that it only works with Pan-F, FP4+, Agfa Scala and Rollei Ortho 25. i guess thats because these films have similar developing requirements and the the first and second developer is tailormade to them. But, i first exposed the film and then decided to read the manual :D
This is amazing! is it possible to just use Sodium dithionite instead of iron out? I sadly can't get a hold of it here and we don't really have something comparable but I can get sodium dithionite.
I wonder if you could make rodinol work as another one-shot alternative? With the foma, if no ammonia or fix is needed, yhat would be easy as heck.
Noah -- sounds like you need to take a road trip to New York state! Head on over to Buffalo!!!
To clarify -- comment was made after only 2 minutes into the video -- and related to going somewhere to buy a reversal kit. Little did I know that Dr. Noah would be going nuts with the chemistry set to do it on his own!!!!! đ
I have a question on the "Clearing Bath".
I would actually like more of a sepia tint in the final instead of clearing it any suggestions on tinting?
I know this is a year old, but it has me thinking about trying the process on 16mm movie film so getting a âprojection readyâ âprintâ â might be possible from b&w negative film. Especially the Iron Out thing because the re-exposure step using a Morse G3 tank can be tricky and time consuming. Any thoughts or cautionary tales? Thanks!
Very impressive work Noah! Do you know Roba Apposta reversal kit? Maybe it can be shipped there
I've chosen to do reversal process bacause nothing beats projected film, it's a very special way to show photos to family and friends.
Keep it up your good work, will you try to develop 8mm or 16mm positive by yourself?
8 & 16 is really just a matter of getting an appropriate tank for myself at this point!
@@AnalogResurgence Noah haven't seen a video from you recently, hope you are well, have you ever seen the Mini Movie Children's video camera from 1978, it's a Japanese cam, here it is czcams.com/video/0AAY4reDHGE/video.html
Here in Australia a company called the Melbourne Film Supply Co has a B&W reversal kit for negative film that comes in a powder kit and not greatly expensive, however it is noted as a one shot supply.....so....maybe it is expensive when you can do it much cheaper with your home recipes?
Would Cinestillâs b&w monobath work here? I have a Fomopan R and Adox Scala 50 do develop and have a lot of the Cinestill chemicals laying around! Thanks!
Hell yea
Hi there! Would a reversal process be the same with normal negative film vs reversal film? Thanks!
Wow!
Great work!! Cant find HC110, is other developer okay?
I have exposed Kodachrome 25 and 64 and I need to get positive black and white for stereo slide viewing. How would I do this?
I'm curious if this process would work with Film Photography Project's Cine8 40 ISO.
This is wild
Hi! Thanks for your video.
I have a question: I have a many slides films, but i have only black and white chemicals to develop films.... so... Are you tried to develop an E6 film using D76?
Hi, hope you will answer because I have some questions, I wanna buy an 8mm film and develop by myself but I don't know what to buy. Kodak vision 3 Negative or Kodak Ektachrome reversal? Will the reversal be a positive? Because this it's easy to be scanned. I'm thinking to buy Vision3 negative and develop with C41 or ECN2 and Remjet with washing soda. What do you recommend? Can I turn the negative into positive in software? I'm shooting also 35mm photo film so I can reuse C41 developer, I don't know what developers are used for reversal Ektachrome
This is a great video! Do you know if this method would work with 16mm or double 8mm B&W reversal films too?
It should! It would just require finding the best developing time for that film with some tests
@@AnalogResurgence Cool! I'd also need to increase the amounts from this video as the G3 tank needs about a liter to cover 16mm film. Luckily your Patreon post gives them in ratios which is tremendously helpful.
this is really great info. have you written down this info in a step by step way? like an instructable? iâd be happy to help do that.
The basic steps for the process can be found here: www.patreon.com/posts/61038241
Pinching tune from Harlech tv(hgv)in the U.K.,I see!!
What percentage is the ammonia that you're using?
You can buy Ammonia in the US?
Or is it really Sal ammonia, ammonium chloride, under a simplified tradename?
It's easier to get KMnO4 in Europe.
It's called household ammonia, often times weaker than the real thing.
@@skunkwerx9674 Yeah, but is it NH4 or NH4Cl?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_solution
@@AnalogResurgence Yes, but is that in the stuff from the store? I still have doubts about that. The two smell almost identical.
Okok combing through the web it seems it is actually a dilution of aqueous ammonia. Cool.
They would never allow that in Europe. Our go-to degreasing cleaning product is Sal ammonia.
Then again, you do have borax, stump remover, pool cleaner and all sorts of fun chemicals available in retail stores over there.
Do you think this method would work for hand developing Tri-X reversal movie film?
Hey, in the first part of the video you mention that the second developer doesnt have to be so intense, but in the step by step process you dont mention decond developing step. What about it? I followed the video instructions and after the bleaching and clearing bath step my film was almost transparent, but still contained traces of the image (my first developer might have been too strong, I used Foma paper developer), but after exposure to light I put the film into a fixer and after that there was nothing on the film. Can it be due to that I didnt develop it after the exposure to light step? Thank you in advance
You definitely need to use a second developer after the re-exposure or nothing will come out. Putting it straight into the fix will remove the silver that needs to be developed during that step! I mention at 16:08 that instead of doing a physical re-exposure and using a second developer, I'm able to use a drain cleaning product that combines both re-exposure and second developing into a single step. If you don't have that powder though, you can still re-expose it to light normally and then use a developer such as dektol after that for the second development.
Does this same process work to develop super 8 b&w film?
Incredibly helpful! But, how did you figure all that out? How did you know that mixing Ammonia, HC-110 and fixer will work as the first developer?
A lot of deep diving into photo forums from over the years combined with experience mixing chemistry from scratch myself! I found an old mention of making a DIY monobath developer using larger amounts of ammonia and fix in developer.
@@AnalogResurgence My friends and I are actually trying to develop the Rollei Infrared 400 with a color reversal process. Any recommendations? Have you ever tried?
The audience for this is getting bigger. As it it gets harder and harder to get good and affordable optical prints from your film, this is for everybody who doesn`t want a digital step to mess up their analogue intention.
Of course, if you DIDN'T mind having a digital step, you can get an SLR camera that can focus closely and an HDTV and computer, then invert the colors of your digital camera pictures and shoot the TV with the film SLR camera. Then develop it at home as regular negatives. I did this with a C-41 color kit for some Guild Wars screenshots and they came out looking cool. It does help to make a DX sticker with the label maker and air conditioning/RFI foil tape and over expose by one stop. (If you have 400 speed film, change the DX code so the camera thinks 200 speed film is loaded)
Would it be simpler to directly add sodium hypo to developer (which is, being a salt, neutral) instead of fixer and the ammonia? Ammonia in developer raises the overall fog. This in turn lowers the final DMax of the slide.
That's definitely the better method, I was unable to source hypo easily and was curious about alternative methods that could be tried.
@@AnalogResurgence Your Fp4+ slides are beautiful. I had been reversing b&w films since early 2000 and I've spent so much effort, time and money in it, fine tuning the process. Your process is simpler (I use permanganate-based bleach), neater and yields the same or better results than mine. What I mean is that "use what works for you" could never be more true than this. I feel the urge to try your F3Cl3 + NH3 bleach.
Hello, is the Iron Out necessary so that there is no sepia tone?
No the Iron Out is used as a replacement for the re-exposure and second developer step, you can instead just do a physical re-exposure to the light after bleaching and then put it into a black and white developer. I believe the sepia tone is removed with a proper clearing bath after bleaching as well as a good first developer.
Sodium metabisulfite seems both expensive and difficult to get in Sweden. Would Potassium metabisulfite work? Both are used for the same purpose in wine making and produce sulfuric acid when breaking down, it seems. Readily available and inexpensive. Campden brand.
According to "The Film Developing Cookbook" (Troop, Anchell) p. 35, these can be swapped but be sure to double rinse before fixing as the potassium ions may impede fixing.
Wow so youve gotta be a chemist to do this process!
Isn't the owner of dr5 retiring soon and selling up or am I confusing him with someone else?
Now, is it possible to reverse color negative film? đ€