Town and Country with 12 Volts on the 5 Volt Reference!
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- čas přidán 1. 08. 2023
- This 2003 Chrysler Town and Country has been having an intermittent battery light and running rough concern that I wasn't originally able to duplicate but I finally found the issue!
#topdon #diagnostics #autorepair - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Oh boy, Ivan is going to love this one.
The way you collect data and can reason your way to a diagnosis (or damn close) with minimal testing is incredible. This is what I always try to teach the newer techs in my shop. It doesn’t always take a ton of testing to come up with a solid theory.
And you just saved that customer big money for a PCM 👊🏻
I have this same vehicle with 200k on it. Bought new. The injector harness burned through and shorted the injectors to ground and sprayed raw fuel out the tail pipe. I got a harness from Dorman and installed it. The top of the plenum comes off and the injectors are accessible. I wrapped my harness with reflective insulation tape and all is well.
I'm just a DIYer trying to learn more about auto electronic because of my truck keeps throwing a code when wet and wanted to learn more since the dealer can't fix the problem after thousands of dollars spent. Between you, PH Ivan and South Main I learn a lot more about modern vehicles. I really like how you video how to connect your scope/test lights vs Ivan just says how he connect it. For beginners like myself it's really nice to have a visual to reference. Please keep up the good work!
Nice job Jake! Had a similar T&C years ago that destroyed the PCM because the soy based wire insulation, through the same harness, were completely degraded and tge injector wires and others were fused together.
Your thought process was great. Nice use of test lights. Thanks again Jake. Watching your channel grow.
This fault is accessible atleast jack sir..if you come across parking actuator plug repair on prius 2nd gen you will be amazed to see how much work it will be to just repair a connector 😢...great work and explanation 👍🏿..cheers
I really did enjoy your methodical diagnostic approach, well done on finding the problem on this testing problem. Well done Jake 👏👏👏
I’m sure there’s more damage under the loom. Definitely try to find one from a junker, maybe the same harness was used in multiple years and models. My zen moments are electrical repair with soldering or even uninsulated butt connectors and heat shrink. Can’t wait to see repair if you get it. Can we also talk about that headliner holding on by only hopes and dreams.
Very informative and interesting video!! This one can really bite you if you're not thorough like Jake! Not every tech out there can figure this one out without replacing the ecm! Thanks again for that great piece of information!!!!
Change the harness. Great approach to find the problem.
Definitely a great video! Wiring harness would be my first thought but if not available, then the heat shrink should do the trick. Love your approach on this one! Most techs wouldn't have thought of this technique for troubleshooting. Very impressive!
Hey Jake, love the dual test light method for finding shorts :) I'm having flashbacks to that 95 Mercedes wagon where the "biodegradeable" ignition coil harness...biodegraded! Ended up replacing 3 control wires from the coils all the way back to the ECM...that was a fun project lol
I believe the quickest way to get the car back to the customer is to de-pin the connector and cover the exposed wires as you said with heat shrink its a 20 yrs old car and the customer will probably get a few more years from the repair. Great way of reasoning out where to look for the problem to be. I do enjoy your videos.
Wow, did this bring back old memories. It's a problem we used to run into a lot here in Fl. It's the whole injector sub-harness, damaged by exhaust manifold heat... and then you couldn't get a *new* harness,; there *was no* short harness available; and half the time you couldn't find a good used harness because someone had already robbed it off the donor car.
What I had to do at that point was pop the upper intake and *remove* the harness from the vehicle, onto the bench... because, at times, most of the time, the deterioration ran all the way under the intake anyway.
Love the way you use the 2nd bulb to yell "hey-hey!" 😄
I was thinking: "just unpin them and add heat shrink"-- and then you said it out loud.. lol..
As long as the copper still looks fine, I think that's a valid repair. It's just shorting to the other wires, it's not actually broken. It might even be worth while to add another little metal shield for double heat protection. I have a lot of scrap sheet metal laying around from taking down metal buildings.. so I find myself adding heat shields to anything that looks problematic. (at least on my own vehicles)
Great train of thought, Jake! Very interesting case - probably, as the plug was loose, it got closer to the exhaust shield and cooked the wire insulation, or it is just too hot there. If no chance for a new harness (or a decent one from a salvage yard), I would go for the individual wire heat shrink solution, possibly adding an external heat insulating sleeve, to the part of the harness closer to the exhaust, because the heat shrink sleeve could still melt.
Start to finish. I loved it. the tutorial was outstanding
👍
CANNY Automotive Diagnostics & Programming
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧 ⏰️ 23:03pm
Test lights are a gift from god.
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 👍🏼
That was a common problem with those vans I had one that did the same thing
i knew what is problem.Airbag on the roof is deployd.
excellent my friend. and you can’t beat a bit of knowledge about how a circuit works . yesterday i was looking a a secondary air pump not working and i knew the circuit inside out was open load , knowing the plug position first terminal block i pulled apart the pin was bent . guess i got lucky but it happens from time to time. . if that was my car i would probably see if i could get in off a junker or make a new loom if it was only a short run and not to many wires . but for a customer that would be pretty heavy on the labour cost i guess
I think you definitely found the problem. Good one!
I'd try to locate a new or used harness if it's separate from the main harness. Otherwise it's going to be a very labor intensive wiring repair.
Good find Jake! Seeing that harness crumble like that reminded me of the Mercedes Benz harnesses of the 80's and 90's 😅 keep up the great work!
Great video! Get a Deutch connector and change the whole connector on both sides + fresh cabel spliced in as long as you see need for.
A visit to the scrap yards to find the plug and needed wires... Chop chop, and splice...
Nice video Jake! I love your easy going and very descriptive way of analysis. EVERY car has design flaws and such so I'm really impressed you don't bash and trash the cars you work on, that is a big turn-off for me. That being said, Option 1, a new OEM (probably not) or after market harness. Option 2, a good used junk yard harness, or yes, option 3, remove, cut, slice and dice, splice, solder, tape, heat shrink tubing method... BUT It can be done, let us know! Thanks!
I had a similar problem with a 06 Explorer 4.0 but it was the TPS wiring Chaffed metal to metal causing no power no gas pedal response but the computer was also bad settling 4 heater O2 sensor codes no ac egr codes fixed that then smoked checked for vacuum leak had a cracked intake because it wasn’t the computer causing running like crap at idle so I was chasing 3-4 problems and now I have a good running 4.0 oh and someone put the wrong gas cap on so it was setting a EVAP code after all that 😅 I was about to call the fire department on a car fire 🔥
Yeah I found a couple caravans like this good find and your right knowing the circuit sent you in right direction
I had a similar issue with a early 2000 Ford Explorer. Two cylinder misfire. Easy right? Waste spark coil. A cylinder pair had no spark. Scoped the primary for the pair and had battery voltage key on and a great pull to ground by the pcm while running. Needs a coil. Seen a hundred. Put a new coil. Same issue. I noticed when I manipulated the pigtail to unplug the coil for a second time, I could hear some crackling sound under the conduit. Start pulling back the conduit and the wire insulation literally started turning to dust. I could blow on the wire and even visually good insulation just blew away. Turns out, the coil power was bleeding to the coil trigger wire making it look like the power was feeding through the coil primary and being triggered by the pcm, but it just had enough resistance in the short to power to give a good waveform, but was never actually saturating the primary winding! If I had of ohmed the primary and secondary I may have caught it. Here in Arizona, we have the opposite of green crusties. We have the brown dust. 😅
nice work
Kind of extreme, but I would consider replacing the wires by butt splicing further away from the heat source with teflon insulated wires (I know that's expensive) and re-pin the connector. The heat shrink over the existing wires should work, if the loom can be relocated away from the heat source. I have completely re-wired cluster panels in my old hot rods after the old flex circuit boards deteriorated and had broken traces in them. It's a bunch of work, but it solves the "unobtanium" parts problem.
I think de pin the connector and heat shrink is your best bet if a replacement isn’t available. I have seen Chrysler wire harnesses do that here in Phoenix. The heat or oil getting in the harnesses will do it. Great find and thanks for sharing!!
How many shops would have condemned the PCM based on the info from service data? Can't believe everything you read. For sure knowing how the circuits work is huge here. great find. A trip to a local bone yard to clip off a healthy pigtail to splice in would have been my fix. OEM connector repairs are difficult to source parts on. Nice job.
Gut call good , seen that before, replaced bad wiring, map sensor problem thank u for all tive-bits that u share, JLF
Great video buddy
Jack, AWESOME /GREAT APPROACH BROTHER THANKS FOR SHARING.
Great job again Jake, my first thoughts with a vehicle this old is junk yard, for parts.
Unbelievably CHALLENGING ordeal ! VERY Interesting !! Watched it a second time right away because there is sooo much going on here : 1. the coinciding ignition wire damage plausible root cause ; 2. the fact only two OBD trouble codes appeared initially ; 3. OEM repair guide strongly advises to replace PCM if no other cause is discovered but DOESN’T advise you how to rule out the other possible causes ; 4. internal battery temp trouble code pops up ; 5. the test bulb remaining lit although the pcm was disconnected . 😯😦😧😮😲 . WELL DONE 👍🏼 !! Great moment in the lesson was that point where you really set the focus on the main suspect/culprit -- namely , ASD bleed in as your plan A . And along with that your rationale (“what instantly pops into my head”) the best place to investigate where ASD power is being sent to the fuel injectors circuit ! 🎯Fantastic methodology !! You explained everything about the problem, and your troubleshooting process, and system operations, and tool set up sooo well for us viewers !!! Much appreciated mate ! 👊🏼
Jake, now you're hitting real close to home as I have a 2002 Grand Caravan that is experiencing problems. I would sure like to know if you find a replacement connector and wire. From your video I'll probably be looking at that connector myself. I've gotten pretty good at moving the power steering reservoir and ignition system to help get to things. Thanks for Sharing! 🙃🙃😂🙂
Speak to customer,ideally harness,but if not untapped harness,then heat shrink each wire ,retake,position cable away from not pipe,a 20 year town and country van,the repair will be ok,and look for a replacement harness,customer choice,enjoyable video,thanks.
The exact info I needed. Thanks for the video and good explanation. You rock
Grasias
Love you're approach to this diag Jake. Thanks for explaining things as you go along. Great case study!
Always enjoy your videos! Replacing harness sounds good!
I have changed hundreds of those harnesses. Aftermarket makes them. I'm surprised you never ran into this problem before
Great job !
Anything is possible with that T.I.P.M. Thank you for another great diagnostic video.
👍 you are an amazing tech! Thanks for sharing.
I’ve seen this tons of times working for Chrysler but it’s cool to see a good tech from another manufacturer, (I’m assuming gm) figure out it’s not always replace the ecm. Always a great job! keep up the videos. I’m still waiting for that discount code lol
Thanks for sharing test light tips love it!
Thank you sir for your time
that was a great video and you explained it so well.. great test with the pcm unplugged ...good old home made test lights ..i will take them over some powered probe like devise lol
If it were my own vehicle or if it was a car they don't expect to keep for ever I might encase the wires in plastic. That green liquid elect tape is real thick to begin with and if the damage is only right there I would space out the wires and load it up with either the liquid electrical tape or something similar and then wrap it in aluminum for a heat shield. Obviously clean it real good and de-grease it first. A "battlefield repair" if you cant find a harness or you think the repair will last longer than the engine.
Superb😍
This one could easily have thrown a PCM & some other part's as well, but you diagnosed it logically👍🏻
Many tech's could have condemned the PCM after reading that TSB
Great video, Thanks for sharing BRO😍
I appreciate the videos. Thank you.
👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼 hopefully they let you get er done , with a new harness.. very informative video seńor …
Probably get a harness from the junkyard
Strange short circuits can be caused in connectors where two pins are corroded (shorted) together. For the PCM to survive a 5VDC VREF cross connected to switched +12 VDC ignition there must be a separate sensor 5VDC overvoltage protected voltage regulator inside the PCM to power the sensors, which is good PCM design practice, so good job Chrysler. If the 5VDC logic supply was used as VREF you would fry a microcontroller when it shorted to +12VDC.
Here again we see the most overlooked failure mode by the OEMs, that is, signals in a harness or a connector shorting together. The OEM has to ask why would this happen within the vehicle warranty period when at the time of production everything is brand new. Well, it is because this happens with age and so the OEM troubleshooting guide does not consider it viable.
Some Thermistor linearization networks are actually a two resistor voltage divider arrangement, rather than just a pull up. A single 5V VREF has to be used for all sensors if it is referenced from a single analog to digital converter subunit on the microcontroller. The measurements (A/D counts) can actually be derived as ratio-metric and not absolute. If the ratio-metric approach is used you do not need to have a highly accurate voltage reference to properly make measurements.
Using an off the shelf automotive voltage regulator, the most popular fixed positive voltage outputs are 5V, 12V, 15V and 8V.
When the repair is complete the harness will have to be tie wrapped away from the heat.
Because this is an intermediate in-line connector pair using all the same wire gauge, you can actually replace both ends using Deustch connectors and /or also rewire the majority of the harness if you want to.
Where I live the vast vast majority of my customers never take my recommendations on repairs. I could see it now. A situation like this they'd say "I don't plan on keeping the vehicle for long, just tape it up". Despite my objections and warning that it could, and most likely would fail again soon.
Great work
Don’t see those too often anymore. Sometimes I miss working on those.
First I would check if the plastic housing is solid and if ok , would de-pin the connector. Then separate the pins from the bad wire. On harness side cut until good wire and solder new same color wire , staggering them. Then crimp and solder the other side of the new wire to the pins. And assembly the connector.
excellent video .
Like you said heat shrink each wire individualy good luck getting the wires out.
Junkyards are awesome 😎
As many of those minivans that used that motor, I might consider going to a U-Pullit and grabbing a good harness. There seems to be quite a span of years and models that should be compatible.
Excellent troubleshooting Jake. How far back in the harness were the wires damaged? Could you somehow bypass the connectors damaged wires and just splice across to the opposite side of the connector? I know it’s a shoddy repair but if it works and the customer knows and okays it it’s not a perfect world as far as part availability. Thanks for sharing Jake. Love your assortment of test leads time for me to make a few more. It’s the little things in your videos I notice not just the repairs. Plus you verbalize your repairs in a clear precise manner. 👍
Great video, Thanks for sharing! I think your best bet is, like you said, to cut the connector and solder them together. What do you use for your audio? It's fantastic!
Thank you
Ive replaced several of them harnesses and they are available at most parts stores.
I saw this kind of wire damage a lot on Mercedes Benz vehicles in the 90s. My last S Class I owned I had rewired half the engine harness since the insulation kept falling off.
I don’t know if you have a wrecking yard close by that has a harness that’s in better condition.
Excellent video ! Can you give us a video on your background and training ? How did you get to be so good at this ?
good one tks
Awesome
I would go to the salvage yard and get myself a better harness
😀
wow, heat shrink is the best option, vehicles out of warranty these days ! electrical nightmare, damn a lot of pain for customer and tech
After 2 weeks working on it I wiggle the connector to the radiator fan relay under the front bumper it worked.... before that I changed so many sensors I opened the harness check all connectors for nothing..at the end just a little wiggle fixed it
That's probably going to be a loose terminal or some corrosion. Id inspect it and figure out what's going on with it.
@@autodiagyt I really don't know I think corrogen in module under the front bumper.now I check the electric connection and the ground first thing .
My concern about the heat shrink repair is the heat shrink may not hold up as well under the heat.
Great video.love your adapters on your fluke meter,where can I purchase them
You can make your own . Or jarhead diagnostics sells some with cup to protect bulb with banana jacks
@@autodiagyt I just ordered some leads double banana from AES wave 6ft $32
Some bubble gum, electrical tape and ship it. 😂
Thank you sir for another great vidio .
Question how or why you knew 12 volts was going to the sensor rather then 5 that’s the key
Thank you
great!!
New style headliner as well .
Open 5v circuit near pcm monitor each side is short to voltage on harness side or from pcm side
great ❤
If you're interested, I actually may have that harness. Let me know if you are interested.
Can you make video for MB ml 164 wss sensor
3:15 is that a video game console in the background?
What a pain in the caboose
Best option harness
Second best service connector
Third heat shrink
Waiting to see what parts u can get ?
How did you find that you have 2 vl on the sensor
👍
Maybe a good used harness or a used plug and pig tail wires
I thought it could be the ho2 sensor wire harness melted
Hi Jake. I put 12v to 5v ref. Did i burn out pcm?
You helped me on programming my equinox.. it runs great now... but now I have a reference 2 circuit voltage on the aftertreatment circuit at 6.01 volts instead of 5.01 volts?? Any idea here ?? I keep getting the p2096 code. Both upstream and down stream sensors have been replaced.
Send me a email with the vin and code it’s setting
@@autodiagyt Thanks man! I send you a fairly long winded email earlier with all of the details. Thanks for looking at this and giving some tips! ;)
Just grab a replacement harness from a wrecker.
I would've bought a harness from a car wrecker as long as it was in good condition.
Maybe go to the junk jard and get another wires and juck them up