Could Pontiac Have Been Saved? How Did GM Pick Which Brands to Save in Bankruptcy? (with Bob Lutz)
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2023
- Learn more about how General Motors (GM) picked which brands to save in bankruptcy and Bob Lutz's vision for Pontiac.
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I am still all bitter and twisted about losing Pontiac. I love mine, and will keep it even after I stop driving. I am 77.
Which old Pontiac is yours?
I am 63 with a 2006 gto. I have had it for 12 yrs. will keep it til I die.
@@corvusala 2002 Grand Prix GTP bought new.
@@kevin122759 Well, I hope that isn't for a long time. I'm sorry that era of GTO's were maligned in regards to their styling with a common lament being "it didn't look like the '67" or similar remarks. Thank goodness GM did NOT go 'retro' with that car, but choosing to go with something fresh and very attractive. More BMW-like, but so what? Had they done the other it could have come out looking freaky, fat and bloated like the 5th gen Camaro. My problem with that gen of GTO was the VERY high price.
@@bobpierce115 I knew a guy number years ago that had actually two of these GTOs and I was so impressed that they came out with 400. My Pontiac is a 1967 Pontiac convertible. But for right amount of money I would sell it. But you see also have a nineteen sixty-eight firebird coupe. I've gotten to the point where I figure I don't need both.
I don't know if most people realize you're sitting with someone who's bordering on automobile royalty. Mr. Lutz was a car guy's executive and wasn't afraid to call it like it was, as evidenced by his last two books (Car Guys vs. Bean Counters and Icons and Idiots). We're fortunate to be seeing this interview. I truly appreciate it!
Amen!
This is Maximum Bob at his finest. No BS, straight talker. Understands the industry and how to build success.
It’s a shame Holden was also one of the brands killed off by General Motors. They built some of the last Pontiac performance cars. And the Chevy SS. Sad. Holden Australia, made some amazing performance cars on a tight budget. They should have been GM’s sedan developers.
I still wanna get my hands on a G8 GT. They are so sexy looking.
They had a major influence on the modern Camaro , and did design work on other model lines
It’s sad that it happened a year after the Ford Falcon died 😢
I imagine Pontiac would’ve had a sweet retro-inspired sedan and coupe to compete with the Charger and Challenger
They do. It's the Cadillac CT5 V-Series Blackwing, RWD 6.2L V8 Supercharged performance machine! 662 hp
@@bruschmidt9943 no they don't.. as those cars cost WAY more
That would have actually been so good...with the Charger and Challenger having competition from the inspired styling of Pontiac...
@@bruschmidt9943 dodge is not luxury
@@Jag-leaper "those cars cost WAY more" You can see the problem! GM wants higher margins, of course, and sedans and coupes are niche vehicles that don't sell in the kinds of numbers to warrant low margins unlike a full range of SUVs. Even the Chevrolet Camaro has been cancelled, let alone the Pontiac GTO or Pontiac Firebird.
I've always wondered why there hasn't been an affordable American compact or mid-size RWD sedan in decades. Chrysler has had a ton of success with their large RWD cars. The Germans have always had them. I think Pontiac would have been the perfect brand to do it.
The mid-size Ford Falcon was manufactured in Australia with V8 or turbo inline-six engines until 2016, however Ford in Detroit never approved funding for Ford Australia to design or build left-hand-drive versions of the vehicle. There seemed to be a "not made here syndrome" that affected both the Ford Falcon (that had six generations beyond those of the US model off the top of my head, including crossflow, SOHC and DOHC VVT cylinder heads for the inline-six) and Pontiac G8/Chevrolet SS. Apparently the US auto unions were quite against imports of these Australian mid-size RWD sedans (or pickups!) in any substantial number?
To some extent it was legacy reasons why the Australian sedans stayed rear wheel drive. In Australia, these monocoque RWD sedans (wagons/utilities) were expected to do a role somewhere in-between the mid-size FWD Ford Taurus and Chevrolet Impala and the full-size RWD body-on-frame Ford Crown Vic and Chevrolet Caprice that served the US market. I guess in the US market, there wasn't really a vacant market space in-between those two offerings (noting most buyers don't really care about vehicle dynamics)?
Ford did trying brining in the compact-sized (by US standards) RWD Ford Sierra (albeit only in hatch form, not the sedan) as the Merkur XR4Ti and it was not a great success. Of course that model went to FWD later. Ford also tried the mid--size RWD Lincoln LS (using more exotic and expensive underpinnings than the Ford Falcon, which still had a standard live rear axle at that time like the Mustang had then too!) and that was not a great sales success either.
In Australia, Holden presented a compact Holden Torana concept around 2010 on a scaled-down Commodore platform but that didn't go ahead. As with the BMW 3 Series to the 5 Series, it would probably have cost nearly as much to manufacture as the larger car so the business case was not there. In any case, Chevrolet already had the Epica or Malibu in the United States...
I guess part of the problem is that people who are buying affordable compact- and mid-sized sedans don't care about vehicle dynamics and want to have the extra interior space which a front-wheel-drive layout offers. As going back to the 1970's and 1980's, the unique selling point of cars like the Honda Accord and VW Passat was how their modern front wheel drive provided more space and so on. (hence Detroit automakers subsequently following that trend)
Pontiac would've also been a great rival to Dodge.
"The Germans have always had them." Hmm, speaking of rear-wheel-drive American-German cars the Opel Omega (Cadillac Catera) was discontinued in 2004 and the Ford Scorpio (Merkur Scorpio) was discontinued in 1998. Essentially the expanding market share of the prestige brand German RWD sedans ate the former market of these affordable brand American-German RWD sedans from Opel and Ford-Werke. Middle management no longer aspired to own a Opel Senator/Omega or Ford Granada/Scorpio, but instead a BMW 5 Series or Audi A6.
@@TassieLorenzo The Pontiac G8 (later Chevy SS) could very much have been a Pontiac front runner along with Bob Lutz’s G6 as the smaller model. It might have also saved Holden, whose demise is a crime as far as I’m concerned. Here in the U.S., it’s amazing to me how many Chevy SS owners have “converted” their cars into Holden Commodores through rebadging and trim piece swaps. Cheers.
RWD unibody platforms are very expensive to develop - even using the then current zeta or alpha platforms to convert to a 4 door body shell would have needed significant volume to justify. As learned many times by the auto industry - there is no such thing as a modern, affordable rear wheel drive sedan.
He’s so wrong about Saab. GM had a truly global brand, that with some real investment could have beat BMW. It’s early heritage was safer than Volvo and sportier than BMW. Instead we got a Saabaru and a 9-7x/ Trailblazer. When GM finally gave Saab the last 9-5, it had a world class car - by then too late.
Love to hear Bob talk about how he fought for Pontiac, I've always had an idea that he wanted to keep it, as Bob loves his performance and performance-oriented vehicles. Sadly, Bob is right. In today's vanilla crossover auto market, Pontiac would just be another SUV brand.
Yes, and not just "now" either, for a LONG time. Just indistinguishable, 'product' like every other automaker today!!!
@Bob Pierce GM could've atleast make Pontiac a complete Performance Muscle Car brand to compete with Dodge.
I would imagine Pontiac being the main rival to Dodge.
@@CJColvin It's a nice thought, but GM (or any auto company) wouldn't/couldn't keep a car division around for just a Charger/Challenger competitor. Indeed, GM's own Chevy division has been struggling in sales of the Camaro since the introduction of the 6th gen in 2016.
@@bobpierce115 Agreed
Well, now I know the story about which GM brands survived and why. Interesting because at the time, it never made a lick of sense to me.
If it hadn't been for GM's mismanagement, all the divisions would've survived. If they'd allowed each of them to have a character and an identity instead of just another corporate box with a different badge and a slightly more whored up interior, they might have actually been profitable.
Exactly mate, they should've kept em as unique as possible just like they we're back in the 50s, 60s, and early 70s. Also the same thing goes for the Mercury and Edsel brands at Ford and the Plymouth and Desoto brands at Chrysler.
@@CJColvin Not sure how sustainable it would have been to keep all the separate divisions of GM making their own individual engines. Remember Ford Lincoln and Mercury shared the same engines as did Chrysler Dodge and Plymouth. Don’t get me wrong, I loved GM when they did. I think that’s why they ruled the automobile industry during those years. But businesses became enamored with profit and greed and that’s what destroyed GM and is in the process of doing Ford and Chrysler in.
@Mike E Also don't forget what AMC could've been the big 4th had both Studebaker and Packard merged together with Hudson and Nash along with Kaiser and Jeep in 1954 to form AMC.
@@CJColvin You’re right about that. AMC would have survived if they had more cash flow. I’m no scholar on the 50s cars but I think AMC did well but should have done better in the 70s. I personally like their cars in the 70s like the Javelin and the oddly charming Matador. I even liked the Pacer, Gremlin and Hornet. I think with a little more cash flow so they didn’t have to buy major components from GM and Chrysler they would have survived and even thrived especially in today’s SUV and crossover dominate market especially since they owned Jeep.
@@mikee2923 Right
One of THE BEST automotive channels on CZcams. Thank you Adam!
The death of Pontiac was also a gut punch for us guys here in Australia, we were hoping the US would also take our sportswagon and ute variants of commodore and there was a big push to have the statesman [long wheelbase, lux spec commodore sedan] picked up as a replacement popo cruiser for when ford axed the crown vic. Alas, it was not to be, and the fallout was nobody builds cars in oz anymore.
The Ute was coming to the US as a Pontiac but Obama killed the brand as it was in development.
@@franciscodanconia4324 this means nothing without proof
I remember seeing concepts of the ute as the G8 ST. The Statesmen ended up in the US as a police only Caprice.
And now ford is looking at ranchero relaunch, could have had the market to yourself GM.
@@watsisbuttndo829 Right but sadly the new Ranchero ain't going to be based off the S650 Mustang platform unfortunately.
When they looked at sales globally, there was no other option. Axing Pontiac was a huge blow to GM Canada - the brand represented 50% of the company’s volume at the time.
Not to mention that Pontiac had two Canadian Sub-brands like Acadian and Beaumont.
@@CJColvin they did, but not by 2008. But it was the popularity of the Canadian Pontiac Parisienne that compelled GM to re-introduce a Pontiac B-body (ie Chevrolet Caprice) to the US in the mid-90’s.
@@jordanschooley7836 Right
I remember Canuck "Pontiacs" were nothing but US Chevy chassis with US Pontiac bodies tacked to the narrower frame. They were derisively called "Narrow Tracks" during the 1960s 'Wide Track" campaign by the US division starting in 1961. But to axe their biggest Canadian seller was just plain stupid. Another boner was to shut down GM Diesel up there.
@@jordanschooley7836 Yes, that car was the Canadian "Chevyac".
Just a outstanding channel. Extremely informative and educational. And I've been with this channel almost from the beginning. This CZcams channel is definitely growing. Content is the key.
Agree with your comments.
Just to add some more context to Bob’s comments. I worked with GM from the late 80’s to late 90’s incl when we set up the foray into the Chinese market. GM planned to lead with Chevrolet, however, the Chinese said they wanted Buick. The reason being that a very popular German beer maker (I think in the 1930’s) used to drive a Buick. The Chinese had great fondness for it and so asked for Buick as the main car for their market rather than Chevrolet. True story.
The reason for Buick's popularity in China was because the Chinese Emperor drove Buicks during the 1930's.
@@dznr723 Hi John. The German Beer company owner (the company was later nationalised and I think is still N02 in China) story was told to me by the Head of International operations. The last Chinese Emperor did in fact also have one and I found this other information too - Buick was the car foreign diplomats all wanted to drive in Shanghai, Beijing and elsewhere in China and Asia going back to the 1930’s. They were sold and perceived as status cars for business: serious, no nonsense and luxurious without being “flashy”. The big saloon style Styling helped, but the name is fortuitous. Not all foreign names or images translate well. In Mandarin, Buick is pronounced and spelled: 别克 (Biékè), which literally can mean “Don’t restrain” or “Unrestrained”.
It was a shame to see Pontiac go. I owned 2 of them, an 85 6000 and a 94 Bonneville. The mid-80s cars were viewed as dogs, but mine was a great car that I drove for 130,000 miles. The Bonneville was a great car, too. But Bob is right. In today's market, another brand making crossovers and SUVs would be a tough sell.
I owned a ʻ92 and a 2000 Bonneville and loved them both.
Not many know it, but Pontiac was struggling in the early '50's as a stodgy brand with flathead 6 & 8 and ubiquitous Silver Streak. These were discarded in '55 along with a new V8. The performance image grew, particularly with the "Wide Track" campaign in '59.
Pontiac was always facing the chopping block at GM. In reality they should have shut it down after they dropped the last 400 in a Trans Am in 79 or in 82 when GM nixed putting the 301 turbo in the 3rd gen Trans Am. After that they were nothing more than rebadged Chevies anyway. The Fiero was a good idea but when they finally got it right, GM pulled the plug anyway. I may have to disagree with Bob. I think Pontiac could be successful today because not everyone wants an SUV. I think if GM relaunched Pontiac as the performance brand of GM it would be taking the market share of what Dodge has and is giving up. I believe the EV craze is going to be short lived. There will always be a market for sport and high performance cars.
I once read that in the early-1950s Pontiac was thought of as a "maiden aunt's car."
They didn't do well in the early 50s because GM took their larger B body models away, leaving with only fancier Chevys, (A body cars). The new for 54 Star Chief, which was a bigger and nicer car, did surprisingly well, which should have told GM a thing or two. The 55 did bring a V8, but the cars looked smaller, even though they weren't, which damped demand. Not well known today is the fact that Pontiac wanted to introduce their new V8 for 53, but strong objections from Oldsmobile, who had a lot of clout with GM brass, stopped them. The 53 and 54 Pontiacs were designed expressly for the V8 engine.
@@michaelbenardo5695 Thanks. I never knew that. I knew most of the resistance that Pontiac faced was usually from Chevrolet.
@@michaelbenardo5695 Thank you ...the long tail '54 Catalina is a precise example supporting your statement.
This was so interesting especially to learn Pontiac could have been saved and Bob Lutz had a plan to do so. I liked he broke everything down in detail about what brands and why they were dropped and why the ones survived. It was a relief to know he was fighting for Pontiac. I agree with what he said about the other brands. What is interesting is that Buick and GMC were on the chopping block, but GMC is profitable. We live in an suv crossover world in 2023 sadly. Pontiac would have been a good counter to Dodge. Thank you Adam. It is highly appreciated.
Hey, I have a 89 Pontiac 350 Formula, but I love my family's Buicks from down thru the ages. All the brands could have survived had the management been a little (a lot) less clueless and more strategic. Government and labor screwed the pooch too. Short-termerism always destroys a company. Engineering is dead and finance (as in financial engineering) rules the day.
I totally agree on the Dodge comparison. I also think, most unfortunately, Pontiac shed its performance image decades ago, and no one was fooled. Especially the younger generation, who mainly knew them as copies of front wheel drive Chevys and Buicks. You had to be older to naturally associate the brand with performance.
@@ntdfmaverick Indeed true when you sit and think about it.
Circa 1960, the GM to Mopar lineup comparison would (mostly) have been Chevy->Plymouth, Pontiac->Dodge, Oldsmobile/Buick->Desoto/lesser Chryslers-,Cadillac->higher-end Chryslers and Imperials(then its own marque). The GM to FoMoCo lineup would have been Ford->Chevrolet/Pontiac, Mercury->Pontiac, Edsel->Oldsmobile/Buick,Lincoln->Cadillac. Mopar and FoMoCo just did not have the economic strength to survive the late 50's/early 60's recession with all their marques, so they each shed a marque. And of course AMC was a mish-mash of various third tier manufacturers from the post-war period up merging one by one.
@@KrisKringle2 Very well explained . GM seemed to survive the longest with all its marques. Two of them should not be dead( Pontiac and Oldsmobile). The market changed and Ford and GM were forced to change because they had dominated so long and got complacent. Then messed up marketing was a factor as well. Buick thrives in China and struggles in the United States. It is again is the suv crossover world we live in today that changed the game.
Never realized that the government actually dictated which GM brands "had to go"
Yep, once a company files bankruptcy, the last word on any major business decisions belongs to the bankruptcy court and the new creditors (banks) willing to invest in the company to get it out of bankruptcy and back on its feet. The idea is that the previous management was responsible for taking the company into bankruptcy, so they don't get to make decisions alone through the process. In this case, General Motors was a very large and important company to the entire country, so "the feds" were much more involved in baby-sitting it through bankruptcy than they would be for a smaller company (making sure it would still exist post-bankruptcy instead of dissolving).
Not just the courts. Since the fed was acting as the bank, the government had more say than it normally would in a bankruptcy. Then throw the politics of labor unions and preserving jobs into the mix.
@@TonyM132 yeah, GM has 10,000's of employees and all the companies that supply GM with the OEM parts collectively employ 100,000's of employees if GM were to go completely bust that would be a catastrophe economically in the US and the gov't ain't gonna allow that to happen
That was Obama who did this, as well as making Chrysler sell its [soul] to Fiat by executive fiat.
I knew that in 2009
Bob Lutz is a guy who can no longer care about what anyone else might think ... as he puffs his cigar.
He's a true treasure, thanks for this!
Yeah that's right!!! The way we should all be living life from the beginning! 🥂
But nope !!
I’m still sad that Pontiac is no longer around!
Just hearbreaking what happened to Pontiac. I grew up in the 1960s when Pontiac was at its peak. No other US brand was as badass as Pontiac across all cars in their stable. Everything from family sedans to hardtop coupes to convertibles to muscle cars were about power and killer styling. Pontiac made a statement.
They should have kept both pontiac as well as oldsmobile.
I felt like Pontiac could've been direct competition with Dodge when it comes down to sporty muscular Sedans and coupes, and if Pontiac had that same marketing strategy as Dodge did with the Hellcats, it would've been a great way to keep the brand alive
Wow! You actually got Bob Lutz? Nice! Great to hear these insights from this market giant.
Interesting piece of trivia. In 1999 Pontiac built a GTO show car. You can find pictures of it online. It looks very very similar to the design of the new Camaro.
The proportions were the same, I guess it's a "Muscle car" thing. But yeah, the greenhouse was very similar.
Honestly if they’d just axed Buick in America and sell them in places where they’re popular and focus on making Pontiac the excitement devision it should have been, Pontiac “could” have been spared. But because of the shit show, mismanagement it was in life support and the recession just made things worse to where there was just no point
They can still axe Buick in the USA. Haven’t seen a new one in years other than in a rental car return lot.
Exactly and Pontiac would've been a great rival to Dodge like the GTO compete with the Charger and the Trans-AM compete with the Challenger.
Dude, Buick had the most popular upscale us-made 'executive' cars.
@@KrisKringle2 ok but it didn’t equate to sales. Pontiac was selling more units than Buick. Pontiac still had a significant level of popularity. Bob said it himself, Buick was on the chopping block but because of how successfully Buick was in China it made no sense at the time to ax Buick, but I think China sales wouldn’t have mattered if they axed it in the USA. I honestly think it would have gotten much better because they could focus on making Buick even better in China. I honestly don’t see a lot of Buicks here anymore, if I’m correct they sell more in China than here in the states
@@relaxitsme_alex9104 But Buick was profitable. Pontiac wasn't. Don't get me wrong (whether that gets to a place you agree with or not). I liked GM's portfolio strategy when it actually made marketing sense. Starting in the 70's it started to break down. The value of the different divisions began to break down as badge engineering began to mean having only the most trivial, cosmetic differences. GM also began to interfere and dictate brand marketing. Buick had a great performance car in the G-body Gran Nationals and the T-type variants of the other models. Killed off by GM HQ. Buick became only sedate sedans and station wagons (even tho' they captured, as I said, the US-made executive car market). It makes little difference to me that GM made 4 brand-makes of the A-body, or the B-body, or any other, as long as there were value propositions that justified each brand's variant, and there were, or used to be from the 1960s into the 1970s.
I have loved Pontiac since I was a kid. Thank you for posting this. I also appreciate that you ask questions, but then let your guest do the talking.
I have to thank Mr. Lutz for bringing back the Camaro and making it such a great car. I've got a 2SS and words can't describe how much I love it- so a G6 built off the Alpha platform would have been excellent.
I think Pontiac would have evolved into a similar space now occupied by Mazda, Subaru and Audi - offering AWD crossovers for active lifestyles, but also a sleek sedan, a sports car and a roadster for us enthusiasts.
Honestly though, had Pontiac been saved it would today probably be just another GM brand to sell badge engineered crossover SUV's
Turning it around would have been a Pyrrhic victory given the collapse of the sedan market.
YESSSS! Thank you for SAYING the OBVIOUS Joseph, that most here are in major denial about: That the market is ONLY about badge-engineered SUV's, crossovers, non-descript 4-door (rent-a-car) sedans, and now some kind of electric car/SUV!! Look at Buick today. Hanging in there, yes, but that's all. As it was, Oldsmobile and Pontiac were like that too in their last years. Pontiac did have that G6/G8 car, and the Solstice "Miata" style sports car, so they didn't go out on an entirely bad note, but it was (not to be morbid) but kind of like a person having a last hurrah day before dying the next.
Hey Adam, thanks for sharing more of your interview with Bob Lutz!!! 👍👍🙂
Thank you again for another excellent episode. Between your editorials,detailed car reviews, and interviews with amazing guests you have become my most anticipated viewing on Facebook! Your passion, knowledge, and dare I say eclectic tastes fills a void that is most needed in the automotive genre. Keep up the great work and please know you have many appreciative fans out here. Thanks again for all your hard work!
I was surprised throughout the whole discussion there was no mention that the Pontiac G8 and Pontiac GTO were both rebadged Australian made Holdens. The G8 was a Holden Commodore SS and the GTO a Holden Monaro.
One of the best modern vehicles GM has produced IMO
The red Pontiac G8 at the start is a rebadged Aussie Holden Commodore. GM killed off Holden too.
I’d even bring back the Olds Vista Cruiser as a Luxury Crossover SUV with its distinctive sloped window roof top!
It was sad to see Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and Saturn because our family had owned cars from these brands…..
As a kid we had Bonnevilles, then Delta 88s….
When I was married my wife and I at one point drove a Saturn SW2 station wagon, or as one Saturn executive said, a sedan with a backpack….
Eventually my family all bought Japanese cars, Toyotas and Hondas which were less expensive and more reliable
Time marches on!
I worked in Product Engineering at GM in the 1990’s. It was a very sad race to the bottom at that time. The general mindset was “the average customer will not know the difference” as we decontented vehicles. What was overlooked was that you compete for the marginal, discriminating customer. It was a sad, disempowering time for product engineers. I had left before Lutz came back to GM, but I remember thinking that he was exactly what GM needed upon his return.
I was hoping he would have mentioned more about the Pontiac G8 / Chevy SS . Perhaps if these cars were given the right amount of attention,they would hav3 sold more and helped save Holden in Australia.
One thing the Chevy SS sedan needed was a model name. Just being called "SS" was confusing and kinda stupid. Many people thought it was a Malibu SS, based on its front end styling, although its platform and powertrain had nothing to do with a Malibu of course. I think it should have been named Caprice SS (since it really was a dressed-up retail version of the police package Caprice), and would have sold better under that name.
@@TonyM132 It was sold as a Holden (Chevy Caprice ) in Australia, it was the top end Luxury car for Australia, With a sports tuned version called the HSV Grange, probably equivalent to a Cadillac in terms of luxury appointments.
The Holden/Chevy Caprice is a larger vehicle. The SS was a Holden Commodore with shorter wheelbase.
@@TonyM132 the Caprice is a longer wheelbase than the SS simply calling it a Caprice SS would not have worked we have SS Commodore here in Australia as well as Caprice and CapriceV with CapriceV standard with V8 the same as the SS Commodore
@@rabbit73au I hear you, the final generation of Caprice sold in America was based on the longer Holden Caprice, and the SS sedan was based on the shorter Holden Commodore. But other than wheelbase and engines, aren't the Holden Caprice and Commodore basically the same car? In Australia it wouldn't have made sense to call the shorter car a Caprice SS, since that shorter car was already called a Commodore, but in the USA I think it the Caprice SS name would have worked well. There are plenty of examples of different wheelbases between sub-models which share the same primary model name, so that's no problem.
Pontiac became the finest “rental car quality” automaker.
The G8 was the best car that GM has made in decades, but they waited too long to release it.
I bet that cigar smells divine.
I feel the same way about Oldsmobile...my 83 Delta 88 Royal 2 door will still forever be one of the greatest daily drivers I've ever had.
Spot ON - Lutz hit the nail on the head with the G8
So like things like the GTO and G8. I liked that car but it was a huge loss having a single platform be only a single model. What they should have done was used the holden body for the Grand Prix. Make the Grand Prix RWD, have a SE, GT, GTP ....AND....GTO trim. Buick could have then used that body to remake the regal into a RWD 2 door sport coupe and used a turbo on the 3.8 and made a new 't-type' regal. Chevy could use it for the monte carlo and offer a 3.4 V6 with AWD.
Great ideas for car people that appreciated sporty, muscle car-like coupes, but reality was sales of two doors cars were tanking for years by the mid-2000’s. No way GM could have diverted sufficient investment into those vehicles while they were making money hand over fist in trucks and SUVs, which they were milking for all it’s worth to keep the bloated cost structures functioning. Take the Camaro which Bob rightfully calls a fantastic sports car - they’re not selling enough to keep it alive much longer when it has very few true competitors.
Focusing on very high quality sports sedans could have saved Pontiac for a while, but not sure it could have avoided being a SUV-centric brand like everything is now. But maybe it could have replaced Buick at this point, which has lost all brand identity.
Got in early on this video. Great channel Adam. Keep up the good work.
Adam has almost hit 100,000 subs and I subbed when he first started with around 1500 subs. Glad he is making a name in You Tube Land.
This is a great interview and I appreciate Lutz's perspective. . . . Lutz covered some of these topics in an extensive video conference that was produced shortly after the GM bankruptcy. Among the items noted at that time was that 44% of Pontiac's sales were low-margin sales to the daily rental fleets. Buick, in contrast, remained profitable in the USA at the time of the bankruptcy, and one of the comments was that a very high percentage of Buick sales were to wealthier customers who did not require financing, but purchased the cars outright. Buick had retained a loyal ownership base with long-standing nameplates like LeSabre and Park Avenue (both of which were dropped after 2005), but the reputation of those cars remained in buyers' minds at the time of the bankruptcy. (Ever notice how many older LeSabres and Park Avenues remain on the roads today? I still see them in traffic every day.) Lutz indicated at the time that GM's internal customer surveys showed that Buick's brand perception was stronger than Pontiac's.
During the years since the GM bankruptcy, it is disappointing that GM has failed to invest sufficiently in new product and marketing for Buick in North America. Some say that axing the LeSabre and Park Avenue models really killed Buick; can you imagine that Toyota or Honda would have made the stupid mistake of dropping Camry or Accord? When we consider the billions expended on Cadillac during the same era, it's easy to imagine that investing in Buick might have proven more profitable. The 2017 - 2019 LaCrosse was an impressive car, but few people seem to know that it ever existed. . . . Sadly, GM has built a track record of destroying once-great automotive brands.
My god, somebody here understands Buick's value proposition. But don't worry, GM still has falls to take. Really, they all do.
Adam ,the mistake Bob made concerning the GTO rebirth was allowing Holden to build it. I bought a 2005 LS2 and swore that would be the last GM product I would ever buy.Mind boggling problems ie…Leaked water into cabin,ignition cylinder froze and left me stranded,suspension had to be replaced apparently car was tied down on ship too tightly.Even the headlights were never properly aimed from the factory. I remember reading the pamphlet touting the triple sealed doors and realizing,looking at the doors,the rubber seal ended at the bottom 2 corners.No rubber along the bottom.They were all built that way,mind boggling.My dealer had 1 Solstice I recall with a 15 thousand dollar surcharge.Looking back no wonder GM went bankrupt and Holden closed its doors. I own 3 Miatas now and couldn’t be happier.Mike the Greek
I love pontiac. When i was a kid, a neighbor (in Uruguay) in the same street had a 64 or 65 GP in light metallic blue and i would ride mu bike and got mesmerized every time o rode past it. Since then i always loved the brand.
The Saab was a nice car in-so-much as 0-60 times for the turbo was concerned, and also, it was a nice riding car. One of them actually beat my 1997 DeVille with the Northstar on the Interstate. I was surprised.
The northstar was a junk engine
Unfortunately business school is all about getting rid of solid low-selling products (and the crashing losers, which pretty much has to happen). It's Cash Cows and Shooting Stars.
I saw the Pontiac “Sport Truck” at the 2008 Orange County car show. It was great. Supremely disappointed the Pontiac division was eliminated along with the Sport Truck (i.e. El Camino).
Doesn't even mention Oldsmobile, America's oldest auto company that should have been kept over Saturn or any others. But i loved it because I was raised on a '71 Ninety Eight❤
And also the Pontiac Performance Division needs to come back and also Offer A high performance , Station wagon car that, can be standard with rwd with a powerful engine !! And a awd V8 model as well as a option !! Seriously we need to get a petition started to send at too General Motors, and Bob Lutz, why he still alive , immediately to get the Pontiac Performance Division Back as soon as possible !!! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸💪💪💪
“Weird cars for slightly weird people “ gotta love the honesty 😊
The Saab, a "weird car for weird people." Well, weird people are people, too.
Why not bring back certain popular Pontiac Models and sell them at Buick-GMC dealers? A luxury version of the Camaro, i.e. Firebird, Grand Prix and Bonneville and even the Soltice. 😊all rear wheel drive based Luxury-Sport vehicles.
Because they don't want to spend the money continuing to build RWD parts for the smaller market that exists for them nowadays.
GM should have continued another partnership with Holden to have Pontiacs built in Australia and imported and sold at Chevrolet dealerships. The Auto Union might have been on board understanding that replacement part production in the USA.
Former GTO owner here. I always viewed the GTO and the G8 and stopgaps to help turn the brand around, though maybe the G8 would have had some legs. Maybe the brand could have restored with the right product mix and marketing. However as Bob himself describes, I think the SUV/crossover market switch would have given the brand another 10-15 years at most. Look what happened to Holden, which seemed like the model for the new Pontiac.
yeah, Pontiac was on borrowed time anyway since SUV'S and crossovers started becoming popular in the early 2010's. if Pontiac just started making crossovers it would be too redundant since GM already has their other brands making SUV and crossovers
Would have been interesting if Pontiac could have stuck around making good Alpha platform RWD cars long enough to now absorb Buick. I’m not sure Buick has any weight in China now making nothing but SUVs, imagine their aspirational brands have changed to Tesla, Lucid and premium Euro ICE brands.
Too bad Pontiac could have not been brought back at this time!! The car line was outstanding for decades!! What a shame!! Same with Oldsmobile....I would buy a 442 Knock Off tomorrow. Same with a GTO!! Buick should be working on a GS at this point!!
Superb video. Great info about an important shift in GM’s history. It’s a shame about the missed Pontiac opportunity…
6:40 Imagine if someone back in the day told Harlow Curtice not to build the '55 Chevy because the Chinese are not buying them. Can you imagine the answer?
Loved what Bob said about Saab. My best friend of nearly a half-century drove a 1967 Saab when I met him. "Slightly weird people" suits my friend perfectly! Don't know if Bob was correct about Pontiac as a domestic competitor to BMW after what John Manoogian said about the earlier conflict over grille design.
It’s funny how most of us have brand loyalty. My uncle was an Oldsmobile guy. I was a Mercury guy. Both brands are long gone.
As much as I miss pontiac, I feel like it's a blessing in disguise. Acknowledging the series of issues and recalls with post-bailout gms, I think it's kind of good they're no longer made (it would tarnish their name). Also, I perceived Saturn as more of the successor to geo as far as their standing in the gm brands. Basically, affordable fun to compete with the foreign brands. Just my $0.02. :)
I have always driven Pontiac's best pontiac I have everong with the 2009 G8 Gigi traded in on A214 Chevy SS then trade it then traded that in on A217 Chevy SS Basically a Holden Currently driving a 2020 Cadillac CT4V I'm through with GM I'm keeping this car So far no problems it's a rocket ship To me all the S UV is a station wagon on stilts An E v's are just a fad the infrastructure is not ready yet GM wake up and give the people what they want not but your stockholders want
The new Cadillac CT5 & CT5 V-Series cars are based in the new Camaro platform & yes, RWD. They are phenomenal track & race machines in the BLACKWING format & are justly VERY expensive cars!
As a fellow Naval Aviator and voracious car guy, I respect Maximum Bob in the highest regard. But there is so much wrong here. Hummer and GMC were always stupid brands. They should have always been under the umbrella of Chevrolet. Moreover, they would not have lost a single GMC buyer to Ford or Dodge by killing the brand. They would have just bought Chevrolet, going forward. Saturn was only where it was because GM stupidly allowed corporate to get ahold of its neck in the early 2000s. When it was operated as an independent company, aimed directly at Honda and Toyota in the mid-90s, there wasn't anything like it in the American market. Don't get me started on deleting its signature polymer panels. Agreed that Saab was a dumb acquisition and hold, all the way around. But the one that chaps my ass to no end is Buick vs Pontiac. Absolutely no one in the United States buys Buick, period--even elderly people now. Pontiac was an iconic American brand, even if its sales were stumbling a bit in 2008. They finally had a phenomenally sophisticated stable of performance models and a number of mind blowers coming on the horizon, like the G8 Ute. The only reason GM retained Buick was to pander to the Chicom red Chinese tyrants--the only market on the planet where Buick has any goodwill capital. I will let the reader decide for himself what that means, in terms of GM being an "American" company.
Saturn's an interesting story. The other divisions hated it because it sucjed up so many resources getting started, but had success, but then other brands demanded Saturn share parts with them to push increase the increased production discount. Cut it off at the knees.
A very interesting and enlightening conversation. Thank you for covering these topics with Mr. Lutz.
Wow, you interviewed Bob Lutz! Surprised he did not mention the last GTO, I still have mine and love it but it was not a huge sales success so I could see why he harped on the G8 stuff. Still a shame that brand is gone but in a crossover SUV truck world I agree with Mr. Lutz’s assessment it would be a hard business case to make. Cool interview!
I remember reading an early review of the Jaguar XJ6 where it was pointed out that the XJ6 had dimensions close to those of the pony cars yet was far more impressive a vehicle.
When the XJ6 came out the American automotive press was truly impressed by it.
And.....it cost how much more? 3x? That's unimpressive.
Agree so much with Bob. GM under Smith never should have made Saturn. Never should have bought Sabb either. My sister in law works sometimes in China and told me long ago Buick was a big stature in China if you owned one.
While I loved my old '76 Pontiac I had in high school and college for sentimental reasons, objectively it was a horribly built, badge engineered, POS with an odd fire V6, 13" wheels that looked ridiculously small, visible roof welds, a cheap interior that completely fell apart and a transmission that ate clutches every 35,000 miles.
And being a child of the 80s, rather than associating Pontiac with their 1960's glory days the first thing that comes to mind when I think Pontiac is plastic side cladding designed to make them look aggressive, but really just look cheap.
Lutz is certainly right that to survive, Pontiac needed its own identity. If you're just badge engineering then there is no reason for that brand to exist. The only reason Oldsmobile hung around as long as it did was dealer contracts.
Agreed 100% brother, Pontiac could've been the main rival to Dodge like the GTO compete with the Charger and the Trans-AM compete with the Challenger.
Holden should have Joined Pontiac instead of going out of business. And have a joint venture here in the states!
Great interview. Bob Lutz is right that today Pontiac would not be viable. Those of us who are nostalgic for Pontiac are becoming few and far between. The auto market has moved on, but I still don't get Buick. It's nothing like it used to be and I don't think anyone would miss it if it disappeared tomorrow. I don't even see advertising for Buick anymore.
It's the largest selling brand in China, and that keeps it alive.
The biggest problem has been GM's gross mismanagement. There should be five divisions at General Motors. Chevrolet is the working man's car, Pontiac Oldsmobile and Buick are the Middle class cars with Cadillac as the rich man's carriage.
GM was 100% successful when it followed the Alfred P Sloan business model mentioned above. Pontiac was mainly the senior Chevy as it was designed to be. Oldsmobile was a junior Buick as it was designed to be. The further General Motors got from that design plan the fewer cars it sold.
Starting in the 1980s was the beginning of the end for GM. Switching almost all of the vehicles to transverse engine front-wheel drive was a huge mistake. Trying to make compacts full-size did not fool the customer. They were systematically rejected.
GM's biggest failure along with Ford and Chrysler was over acquiescing to the federal government and the United Auto workers Union. Completely forgetting the customer. Pontiac and Oldsmobile were fine cars that did not deserve the deaths they got.
Pontiac, like Oldsmobile, alienated their traditional market buyers.
As a Swede, I take umbrage against the definition of Saab as a "Weird brand for slightly weird people". In reality, it is a weird brand for weird people....
I love these interviews with Bob
Great Interview!!
"Saab. Weird cars for slightly weird people"... That should have been their slogan.
“Weird cars for slightly weird people” 😂😂😂
the problem with bob lutz interviews, is they are way way way to short, and because of your management experience. you know the right questions to ask.
GM was destroyed by Wall Street Equity pressure,accountants , nepotism, and people who had no passion , or understanding of the divisions, and its customers. Bob Lutz was the exception. He is a passionate car man. There insane push for Crossovers, trucks ONLY, will pull them down , eventually AGAIN.
Bingo.
I bought a 2095 Vibe, great little car. I traded it in on the 2nd G8GT that was delivered in Chattanooga, Tn. I still have the G8 and love it!!!. I'm a Pintiac fan number 1. A 1972 Grand Prix, 1972 Catalina convertible, 1987 Grand Prix with the 4.3 fuel injected V6, and a 1982 Bonneville with the 4.1 liter V6 with 4 barrel carb. And other Pontiacs. GM should bring Oontiac back and let Bob finish his work. We need something besides stupid suvs😊
Hi Adam interesting video!
Wow, that was fascinating hearing the real story on why the brands were scrapped. I really didn’t realize the federal hand in everything.
Also, I see your subscription count is flirting very close to 100k! Congrats Adam. I hope you got a nice spot picked out on the wall for that beautiful YT plaque!
Yes, the fed boys pulled the triggers on the brands (in a direct sense...management and labor screwed it up since 1970).
American car manufacturers have convinced the public that "No one buys 2 doors", "No one buys manual transmissions", "No one buys cars, only trucks and SUV's". So we are left with Chevrolet that sells 5 different sized four door cars, with automatic transmissions and similar styling. They have painted themselves into a corner. Ford only sells massive trucks and massive SUV's at ridiculous prices. Fiat has spent the last 10 years pushing 707hp Hellcats and now think they can turn people towards EV's with no soul. There used to be a time when you could walk into a showroom and choose from a hardtop, four door, wagon, pickup or convertible. Now it's all one piece of melted wax fruit.
..in various shades of gray.. 😖
Car manufacturers (or any consumer good manufacturer) react to demands of the customers. They try different things, then stick with and promote the ones people buy the most of at high profit margins. Once gas became cheap again in the late 80’s that path became trucks and SUVs. Until gasoline becomes truly unaffordable, that’s where the path will stay. Urbanization/congestion and improvement in auto transmission technology slowly killed demand for manuals. I lament that too, my 2 daily drivers are manuals but are from 1999 and 2003 as anything more modern is too computer controlled to feel like you’re in command of it anymore, and the RPM hang-ups between shifts for emissions purposes is highly annoying.
@@nathanexplosion5478 Yes you want to sell your product, but you need to have backup plans. Nobody buys big new SUVS around here anymore, they were all unloaded in 2008-2011. Gas will become a lot more expensive quickly. Then the trucks go this time.
Now days you'd just have a Chevy Trax rebadged as a Pontiac
I’m still heartbroken over the loss of Pontiac. That said I do think the Lutz G6 would have to have been AWD as well. Pontiac had a lot of sales in the snowy Midwest: so an RWD G6 only would have needed a counterbalance.
It’s also worth noting that Pontiac’s timing with the G8 was terrible, and that car absolutely failed to sell in meaningful, profitable volume without a ton of cash on the hood.
At the same time, Buick’s timing with the Enclave meant that GM had a money-minting hit just at the moment they needed it most.
Pontiac would have needed a lot more money poured into it to rehabilitate it to the point where Bob thought it could succeed. GM just didn’t have that cash available. And historically, Cadillac probably would have put the kybosh on Pontiac versions of the ATS and CTS anyway, just like they’d done with the Sigma platform that was supposed to be the basis for the Holden Commodore/Caprice. When Cadillac insisted on independent ownership of Sigma, Holden had to stretch the V platform even longer and develop Zeta on its own, which undermined the profitability of that vehicle program long-term.
But Buick was further into its upswing at the time and had the formula for success over the next 15 years to today.
Sad to see them go, but glad they are not part of Chinese Motors, formerly Government Motors. The 60's and early 70's was their era
I really liked this video Adam. I would love you to do a segment on the rise and fall of Oldsmobile. Other than Chevrolet of course, it seemed like Oldsmobile was the other big star of GM, especially throughout the 1970's to mid 1980's. But Oldsmobile started to fall during the late 80's and really never recovered, which of course led to it's demise in 2004.
Everybody and their mother bought a Cutlass Supreme in the late '70s to early '80s. Nice looking cars.
I do miss the Pontiac line. Made some mean looking cars. Always loved the style. I had a 95 Grand Am just an SE but I loved the look.
No chance to bring back marquis names like Firebird/Trans Am, GTO, LeMans and Grand Prix. Too bad.
The Mercury Marquis name will never rise again like the Phoenix - oh wait...
This is your the second interview of Mr. Lutz I've watched. I knew who he was because my engineering professor used to quote him, and I can see why, he's giving us priceless inside stories about GM. I did wonder at the time why keep Buick and ditch Pontiac, which I thought had more interesting products. The possibility that Pontiac could have produced a BMW-like sedan and ponycar (a Firebird, I would hope!) in the 21st century is one of those might-have-beens that keep things interesting. If he's willing to be interviewed a third time, I'll watch! I'm sure he'll have good stuff to say.
I definitely prefer the Firebird over the Camaro. Always have since 1967.
Terrific Stuff from Bob, Adam😊👐
I was born and raised in Pontiac. My father worked at plant 14. I have owned many Pontiacs and currently own a 06 M6 Goat. It will stay in the family.
Can you guys imagine if Pontiac did survive, what the Firebird, GTO, & G8 would be like now, ESPECIALLY with Dodge ???
Pontiac had been in decline for years with its target market moving towards imports.
It had gained a reputation for garish styling and poor quality.
Buick was saved because of its appeal and sales numbers in the Chinese market.
It didn't matter if Buick's sales in the US were minimal because the sales numbers and profits from China guaranteed that it would survive General Motors' bankruptcy. After all, it was one of the few money-making operations in the corporation.
Pontiac wasn't even sold outside North America.
I always wondered why people lamented Pontiac being phased out.
If they loved them so much why didn't they buy enough of them to keep the division viable when it was in operation?
Can't complain about not being able to buy a new Grand Am when you bought a Civic instead.
I thought about a new Bonneville but I bought a Camry.
GMC vehicles are HUGE profit makers.
They are only different from Chevrolet counterparts by inexpensive restyling differences but are usually loaded with high-profit options meaning they can be sold for higher prices and higher profits.
"They are only different from Chevrolet counterparts by inexpensive restyling differences but are usually loaded with high-profit options meaning they can be sold for higher prices and higher profits."
Well, along with better quality control and more labor involved to increase the build quality, that's the badge engineering the way it was done until the late 70's. Badge engineering became something where the true difference was only the different badge slapped on. Don't understand why people don't make that key distinction.
Starting with 1988 Pontiac's identity was performance. That is indeed an identity. However some products unexpectedly had poor sales including the final Bonneville. Some of this was attributed to Pontiac and Buick sharing dealerships. While Pontiac is gone for good, a possible Camaro subbrand may be on the horizon. That could partially fill the void.
"SAAB: weird cars for slightly weird people" Good thing he didn't write ad copy😂
There's little doubt that Pontiac could have survived another 10 to 15 years if not for the bankruptcy, however I don't think GM would be able to successfully adapt their lineup to a full SUV line that they're imposing on all their brands nowadays.
Let's not forget the questionable Saturn brand. It was hoped it would steal customers from Japanese imports, however later studies indicated they mostly took sales from Chevy and Pontiac at the expense of enormous money, time and talent from GM.