Fan fault finding, fixing & fidgeting
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- It’s a wordy video about domestic fans. What’s not to like? Well, plenty perhaps, but never fear, there are four chapters to help you navigate this piffle:
00:00 INSPECTOR FANNY:
A closer look at an industrial duct fan and the tickling of its run capacitor.
07:27 TWO’S UP ONE DUCT:
A switching arrangement to allow one fan to serve two rooms.
13:36 TIME CRISIS:
A comparison of external timer operations with, perhaps, a surprise in store for anyone trying to stick too many fingers up the thing when it’s not so warm and welcoming.
31:44 IT’S A BLOODY FIX!:
The repair of a duff Vent-Axia VASF-100T timed fan.
This video is an example of something that started off as being fairly simple but grew in complexity when it transpired the timer I’d sourced acted in a way I didn’t expect, along with my happened to be called out to a faulty Vent-Axia that same week. What I thought would be a quick one to knock out of the ol’ PowerDirector toaster has, through feature creep, grown into something of a monster for filming and editing.
That also explains the delayed beer shout-outs which were recorded Friday 29th July in anticipation of this being published that weekend. My apologies if you’ve generously donated to the cause since then, rest assured another (simpler) video is in edit and you will get your shout in the coming days when that one plops off the production line and lands in a wet pile in your lap!
Errata:
When talking about the relay, I say it has in-built diode protection against back-EMF. This is incorrect; the legend shown on the relay casing is for the LED indicator as pointed out by Steve of the @sdgelectronics channel.
Links:
An old video on the Klein CL3200A clamp meter:
• Klein CL3200A and othe...
The Garo Priority Controller:
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Big Clive’s teardown of the Ikea Nettio lamps shown in this video:
• IKEA Nittio LED lamp t...
SwiftAir: www.swift-air.co.uk
Fans4less timer sales page:
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Manrose fan overrun timer: amzn.to/3JEV7YO
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Neutral switching would be fine within the appliance and is often done this way for a variety of reasons, but since this is a separate unit I would agree they are using something that hasn't been designed appropriately. Btw, the humidistat is using an SSR arrangement with a snubber across the switching device. The snubber effectively forms a complex impedance allowing some current to pass - enough to illuminate some of those lamps. The LED lamps with switching regulators in them will often flash as you saw on the Ikea lamp, passive or impedance controlled LED drivers will just glow dimly. The term polarity on AC though is painful... Earth referenced maybe?
Btw the suggestion of using it to reduce inrush current across the coils is garbage.
I knew you'd have the skinny on it Steve!
I View polarity on an AC circuits as the equivalent of resistance which we all know is impedance technically. Referee: it's shorthand and I will allow it.
Diode in the switched live biased to block DC from the humidistat fixes it. The voltage must be high enough for the lamp to start to switch on and then immediately discharges it when on turning it back off again. Then the humidistat/timer charges back up until the lamp attempts to start then off again. Rinse and repeat with a flash each time the lamp attempts to start. Only ever happens to me with electronic HF ballasts on CFL lights and LED drivers. It never happens with filament or magnetic ballasts as both probably give this charge a path to neutral.
There was a small firm called Swift
Who, when designing a switch, went adrift
Dave Savery said this thing should be dead
But it’s still bloody live and I’m miffed!
Absolutely rivetting stuff. Much better than some old guff about a bloke leaving his job 😉
In a distant way it reminds me of some of the very old radio sets where the chassis was live and had to be insulated from the case with rubber grommets (or the case was wooden). Those devices when powered up for repair on the bench could really catch the uninitiated out!
Many hours completing truth tables, for some reason my 3rd year of training to become an electrician was electronics. Sparky in Australia. Then completed two more years of industrial electronics.
I got a question on 463.1.2 in my 18th edition exam. I couldn't for the life of me think where you were allowed to switch a neutral, and this turned out to be the answer. As you point out, it appears to contradict itself gloriously! I completely agree that the design of that timer is ridiculous and it doesn't fill me with confidence that they can't even spell the words they used to fob you off....
I finally found out why the light bulb in the bathroom turned on briefly after the fan stopped, I suspected why but now it's obvious (emf), I solved the cause in desperation by putting a spotlight with an incandescent bulb, thank you, I follow the channel with interest
very good video, designers have a lot to answer for, switching the neutral eliminates arcing across the switch contacts
Thank u for the Sunday vid
You were looking bored there Padraig, so I thought I'd add to it!
1.75uF for a 2uF cap is pretty much bang on in capacitor terms when you take into account measurement accuracy. ESR is a much better indicator of capacitor "quality"/health. In fact the Peak tester you used is an ESR meter NOT a capacitance tester it only gives you a ball park capacitance reading as a byproduct of it's main function.
Good fault finding video, reminded me of working on my electronic sets I got for Christmas back in the late seventies and early eighties from the local Tandy shop
I had a couple of those. One was a 100-in-1 electronics project kit that kept me entertained for years!
I probably had the same. You should do a video about it, better fun than all these modern toys kids have.
Still got my 200 in one boxed but well used
@@carlrobson5745 The 200-in-One - that was it! I still have the manual here, but the unit is long gone. Eight red LEDs,, a 7-segment display, loudspeaker, 7671 and 7400 IC's, PNP & NPN transistors - a brilliant bit of kit! Mine was blue in colour and I got it for Christmas around 1986. Cheers for the beers to Carl!
@@dsesuk no probs
🤣🤣🤣🤣 you are in the wrong job mate. should be on the stage.
Great video David. I expect you know this, but a simple solution to the 2 switches-2 lights-1extractor problem is to use double pole switches. At each switch, both of the input terminals are connected to the permanent live. One switched live goes to the light, the other to the fan. When switched off, the outputs are separated, so the light can't come on when the neighbouring light is switched on.
Damn. I should have shown that.
Great vid as usually.
Thanks Dave - I enjoyed that.
27:25 The Swiss cheese model, when all the holes in the layers line up an error can happen
I liked your video as soon as I played it because I knew I’d enjoy it. And Boy it absolutely was! Instead of entertaining members of my family who just ponce off me for my spirits and cold beer, and then leave, making me feel like I’ve been prostituted for my alcohol and wifeys good cooking, just because we’re related, well they can get fucked because some things are more important. A thoroughly enjoyable Sunday afternoon had in the presence of your devastatingly hilarious video. Good show 🥃🥃
thats really good information, thank you
very good video! thanks!
ive always liked to use a flush mounted ceiling pir to switch bathroom fans on and use the timer on the pir for the over run on the fan. by doing this it means the fans still going to work when they dont bother using the lights . like many do while showering during the day and not opening the window
I've used that model manrose humidistat timer before. Its working but with a filament lamp the rogue voltage feedback on the "switched line" would be discharged through the lamp and would disappear. On an LED or high frequency cfl ballasted fitting you get that pulsing. You have to add a diode to block the pulse coming from the humidistat on that line that causes the lamp to start. I used a 1N4007 1000v 1A general purpose rectifier diode blocking current from the controller. The controller then works as designed without the flashing pulse when the light is switched off. Its about time they fixed that controller. I usually heat shrink the diode an put a leg in a wago.
Send it to Big Clive,see what he makes of it, would be interested to see him break it down &give his input!!
Haven't watched it yet. Im saving this for tonights prime time viewing when naff all else is on... There is only so much Bendy-Bundyenders or Artisan Street i can watch!
I presume that the KY on the table is for putting on sleeving, I mean what else would you be using it for 😂. Nice educational video David 👍
I see @Nick Bundy left his KY jelly at yours again.
Thanks for the laughs, helping me get through Covid.
Hope you feel better soon old chap.
@@dsesuk thanks cocka… getting there slowly
send that swift air timer to John Ward. let him rip it to bits and find out the piss poor manufacturing
Ohh…..a Sunday video, we are blessed…..well we’re desperate for something interesting to watch, because TV is shite these days…….and Big Clive getting another shout out this week, he’s already had one from AvE …. 👍🇮🇲💪😂🔥
Hey hey Andy K! Not the most interesting of topics this one though I'm afraid!
@@dsesuk you gave us a good “Blow by Blow” talk through though….we all got “sucked” in by the wit and humour…..👍😜😂👍🇮🇲
forsooth, you must with all haste re-brand to Shakespearean Electrics -- you are in Warwickshire, after all, With a name like that, doing so will also give that artisan guy something to worry about :-D Great video, David. Love your work!
I do wonder if changing the labelling on the SwiftAir switch might solve the issue?
If you swap the L and N inputs, the TRIAC would then be on the L side of things. I think that would work and TRIACs don't care which way up they are as it's AC.
That being said, you can still get enough leakage through a TRIAC to be unpleasant. I used to design and build things that used SSRs and we did make it very clear that for a lot of reasons you couldn't rely on the off output of the SSR to be safe to work on.
In DC control systems and in vehicles it is very common to switch the negative. If you look at the wiring diagram for a car fan you're likely to find a relay on the negative side. And don't get an amateur radio person started on the subject of fused negatives, I did that once and there be dragons.
Had a similar problem with a rogue 50V on the input of the non-humidistat brother of that manrose timer. Manrose tech help told me to stick a 1N4007 on the SL which stopped the led flickering
Just watched a bit further in, and seems like you got the same model in the end. Diode on SL is the solution to low wattage LED flickering
Great video chaps. You must always lube your probes for a nice smooth entry 😎
Gotta slip 'em in up to the GS38 knuckle Dickie.
Great video with plenty of fanny action!
"Electricain" sounds like something the wife would use on her front bottom (or rusty rear on birthdays and special occasions)👍
Some led lamps have a smps so at low voltage they strobe as the smps keeps trying to start, others are a simple capacitive dropper so will stay on continuously ..
Fantastic video David. I found it most interesting, as for that timer thing feck me what a joke that company should be brought to book. And I do so love that Robin MFT and the little blue IR tester I must try and get hold of one but not having much luck finding one as yet.
Is there anything you you can’t do when it comes to electrical stuff?
Thank you for a brilliant video mate . 👍👍👍👍👍❤️
Thought you'd like the Robin action in this one Sean! That Hioki is linked in the description - Farnell have them if you really want to part with the pound coins!
it’s the Robin I want . The Hioki is good meter. But no sense me getting one of them at the moment as I have my viccy although that digital. But I sure am amprobe Robin will turn up eventually.
Talking of the 💩fans i work for a company that has a housing association client as part of the contract my colleague fitted A Nuaire Faith fan in a bathroom this year 2022 it started tripping the lighting circuit with in a day.
I disconnected the fan for IR & Continuity tests on the circuit including to the light which were fine so I replaced the fan thinking it was a faulty unit and that tripped the lighting circuit as well so fitted a new 3rd fan in it still tripped, triple checked connections decided to say sod it and rewired the fan circuit just incase of any hidden damage as the chances of having 3 faulty fans is unbelievable which it turn out all 3 brand new fans were faulty
Good video. This device should be a compulsory recall.
Genuinely very interesting video Mr S , thank you. Have you thought of going over to the Isle of Man and doing anything with Big Clive, as you're both of a similar ilk as far as electonic nerdery goes.... in a good way!.
I do agree with your sum up of Mr Blaitant though I might have put it as him "brimming with self-confidence" I watched his, and your, "Electrician's quick fire questions" and formed an opinion. I have seen him before and always came away with the same feelings about him.
I've a lot of time for Jamie's foul-mouthed no-nonsense approach Olly!
@@dsesuk I know what you mean, calling a spade a spade - ex-services- but if he worded his beliefs differently he might win more people. I see his approach as "This is how I see it and I don't give a flying ... if you don't like it"
The ludicrous part about this is that a triac is ideally suited to switching the live supply to a load. The gate (pin that triggers the triac into a conducting state) can be switched early in the cycle and once on, the device continues conducting even with the gate current removed until zero crossing occurs, in other words its very easy to drive a triac in the live side of the circuit. Its an odd design because there is no obvious advantage in switching the neutral.
Does the Swiftair item have a CE / UKCA mark on it?
If so in the manual does it mention which product standards it complies with?
No markings, and no manual that I can find in the box, so perhaps an import they've happily branded without looking too hard at how it's designed??
37:47 those really crisp letters reveal that the letters were probably typed on a typewriter with correction capabilities. Those used a polymer ribbon not unlike label printers have. The typebar slams the ribbon to transfer the carbon onto the paper. I am familiar with this kind of typewriter and Technology Connections does a good job of explaining how they differ from fabric ribbon typewriters: czcams.com/video/YE0U018Copw/video.html
The capacitor probably went low capacitance due to mains transients and spikes blowing holes in it. Each time this happens the capacitance drops a bit. Maybe a SPD in the consumer unit may prevent a reoccurrence.
It isn't low, in capacitance terms it would be considered bang on when you take tolerances into consideration. ESR is a better gauge of health and the meter he used is an ESR tester not a capacitance meter.
@@mfx1 This is how capacitor dropper type circuits fail. The foil capacitors are called "self healing" in that every time they get a voltage spike it punches a short through the insulation. The film then burns back restoring the insulation but at the cost of reduced capacitance. Over time the capacitance drops so much that there isn't enough current for the circuit and the associated electrics fail. These foil capacitors normally have 20% tolerance - ESR tests won't show this fault unlike paper and electrolytic caps.
@@AndyFletcherX31 There's no evidence that there's anything wrong with this capacitor, it's within tolerance particularly when you consider the peak meter is NOT an accurate capacitance meter in fact they only quote accuracy for ESR measurement not capacitance.
@@AndyFletcherX31 The self healing process increases the ESR so yes it will show up.
czcams.com/video/ikp5BorIo_M/video.html
@@AndyFletcherX31 Dave Jones did a tear down of a low value capacitor on EEVBlog recently, including some feedback by a guy whose job is, from memory, something to do with QA/Design of these capacitors.
If the voltage reduction for the circuitry inside the controller is by a capacitive dropper this is commonly on the neutral side making the chance of an electric shock from the pcb less likely. Ths possibly leads to the use of a triac in the neutral leg to the fan as a more likely design decision.
I see what you're saying, but would you also expect an external device such as this to keep Line held high?
@@dsesukValue engineering in action I think, primarily. I am a bit hazy on Triac circuit design, but I think the gate drive voltage will only be 5V away from the neutral reference rail, hence switching the neutral only.
@@BLOCKsignallingUK no
The U.K. needs something like Australia's ACCC, who can ban a product and order its recall at full cost to the supplier/importer if it violates a safety based requirement/law
We have the UKCA marking which came about after we lost access to the CE mark following Brexit, but this contraption lacks either which is suspicious in of itself.
How do you fit a diode across an AC relay coil? in one half cycle its a reversed biased diode but in the other half cycle its a forward biased diode and a loud pop generator (only once 🙂). Also an AC relay coil has a poll piece fitted to stop it dropping out during voltage reversal so it don't buzz at 50Hz.
A second point is not all contacts are created equal, watch out that the NC contacts can sometimes have a lower switching curent limit than the NO ones.
I'm just going by the internal wiring diagram on the relay itself.
It is possible and there are a few ways to do it. Essentially it's working a bit like a surge protection device. It's also entirely possible that the diagram just has a picture of a diode to indicate that it's doing something clever because everyone knows what a diode's symbol is and the purpose it serves.
One is to use a pair of reverse biased Zener diodes or something involving avalanche diodes.
A Zener diode is designed such that they block current until the voltage reaches a certain level at which point they start to conduct almost like an open circuit with a fixed voltage drop across the diode. Two of those facing each other means that if the spike is positive compared to earth then diode 1 conducts, and if the spike is negative compared to earth then diode 2 conducts. Depending on the application you do have to be careful to not overload them so you might use current limiting resistors or PTC resistors.
They're useful in a lot of other ways too. You can use them as voltage references and they're particularly useful when trying to reference low voltage control circuits to variable voltage switched inputs.
@@dsesuk The diagram on the relay is for the LED indicator. Back EMF protection on an AC relay is usually only done by using a snubber, though the LED and inverse parallel diode + current limiting resistor may have a marginal effect.
@@sdgelectronics Now that I look at it more closely, the diagram does indeed show LED indicators. It seems mother was right about how playing with one's wenus too much would affect one's eyesight.
Tangential question: How does ventilation work in the UK? Here in Sweden, those fans would would be always on, ensuring airflow at all times with input through wall/window vents or with another fan system for injection. The kitchen hood might have a knob to increase fan speed when cooking, but not to entirely turn off the fan.
Most tend to be timed so they come on with the lights, then shut off shortly after the lights have been extinguished. We've started installing humidistat variants more commonly that only come on to vent the air when damp. If they're on all the time, does that not continually exhaust good air you've paid to warm up or do you use some kind of heat recovery?
@@dsesuk The systems with input/output fans usually have a heat exchanger built in but my apartment does not, input air goes through the radiators in every room to ensure heating, I guess CO2 extraction is prioritized over heating costs.
Note: there are no intake vents in the kitchen or bathroom to ensure forced airflow from bedrooms etc.
@@dsesuk I live in Finland and have the same model fan on the roof of my house running 24h/day. The fan takes air from the bathrooms and air comes in via small vents in the lounge/bedroom windows. It's totally different to the British approach where people open their windows a little to "let the air in". Thanks to this towels dry in the bathroom just by hanging them from a hook and packets of biscuits left open in the kitchen get dry and crunchy, not soft and stale like in the UK! In Finland you will never see condensation on the inside of house windows when you walk down the street.
In the U.K. they build houses with loads of draught, gaps around windows and doors and ‘cold roof’ design dominates - so in the U.K. the house is so well ventilated it could provide adequate life support for a Euro Cup Football final and bathroom fans are only intended to exhaust the ‘wet air’ and might have a run on of 15 mins .
Whereas in Scandinavia you design houses to ‘Passivehaus’ or very near to it, with exacting build standards with air tightness standards and heats recovery and designed ventilation rates specified. In the U.K. houses are thrown together in 16 weeks by multi layered sub contractors who are untrained, unsupervised don’t give a fuck types who would not be capable of a decent job in their own house.
The coil diode is called a 'flywheel' diode.
Would you believe that I used one of those fans to boost a oven hood extractor for a Asian family 😂
Came across the exact same thing on a swift air cross flow fresh air system today. Whole thing is dogshit, and recommended ripping it out and starting again with something of better quality.
An easy way to do multi light switches driving a single fan is to use D/P Switches.
Your TIS multimeter is almost identical to my Uni-T and eight times dearer ,
It's a rebadged Brymen, think it's a BM239, and they are in a different league to Uni-T.
They're a bajillion times nicer to use (that's a metric bajillion) and their safety components are rather better thought out.
That being said, the newer Uni-T meters are a lot less bad than the older ones. I've had and used Uni-T equipment for years, my first meter was a Uni-T from Maplin back in my university days and my most recent two bits of test equipment (a 210E clamp meter and a thermal imaging camera) were both Uni-T. But the Brymen kit is so much nicer to use, better built, etc.
Uni-T has a place but there really is no comparison.
TIS do also rebrand some Uni-T kit, the TIS 280 and 835 are both Uni-T for example.
Di-log and CPC/Farnell under the Tenma brand have a lot more of the Uni-T kit. Often European spec or European branded Uni-T equipment is either downrated compared to the same Uni-T design or it's had some of the internals beefed up.
I work for an electrical testing & EMC lab, and in all probability, Fans4Less are importing that timer from China, probably without any certification at all. I'd have a word with your local trading standards, they might have a few words with them ;)
The Manrose model carries BEAB and CE markings, but there's nothing on the SwiftAir. Even the PCB carries no legend regarding the manufacturer. As you say, I wouldn't be surprised if they just imported them and silkscreened their logo into place.
@@dsesuk Sounds very familiar! The product must carry the UKCA mark now if it's sold in the UK (post brexit). Most products carry both the CE mark & the UKCA mark since they're sold in both the EU & the UK though. If there's room on the device to place it, there must also be manufacturer details.
Trading standards tend to have a bit of a bee in their bonnet about dodgy or unmarked electrical equipment ;)
New Times Roman typeface on the cover of the SwiftAir... Chinesium!
Could well be.
Yes stupid devices switch the neutral with triac's it is annoying leaving the Hot live at the output or outlet I noticed this with a dimmer for stage lighting.
Baxi and potterton boilers have a fuse on the live & neutral
Within the appliance they can do what they like, but when providing control to an appliance externally it doesn't seem right to me.
I wonder if swift air will respond? I had a similar situation some years ago with low voltage fan designed for social housing. It came supplied with an isolator built into the transformer for ‘easy installation’. When I questioned with their technical why the isolator was only switching the line they simply told me that If I wanted more than single pole I needed to install that myself. Fucking garbage!
I don't think SwiftAir quite see the problem Ian.
Excellent job sir. I can't understand the bollocks about switching the neutral, it just doesn't make any sense at all. Although having said that, I had to have a look at the KnightsBridge EX001T 4" Axial Wall & Ceiling Extractor Fan With Timer, I have sitting in a box before me, and the constant live feed just loops in on one terminal, goes through a wire jumper on the PCB and goes straight out, via another terminal, to the fan motor, meaning it too is switching the neutral. WTAF???
That's okay if it's part of the same assembly, but there could be an installation with this product where it's hidden away and someone unsuspecting wouldn't even think of it being there ready to pounce!
@@dsesuk What's really funny is that they went to all the trouble of routing out anti-tracking slots between both sets of live and neutral connections, inward and out to the motor, and the switched live, but then they ran the incoming constant live PCB track around in a loop to the motor live terminal.
It defeats all the good work they did with the anti-tracking slots, especially when the device/PCB is operating in damp/wet conditions... 🤣🤣
Interesting, it wouldn't be the first time a product has been sold in the UK piggy backing off a standardised design another company uses but doesn't actually comply with the initial BS. Still it highlights always have a tester with you if you don't have a death wish.
I always keep my voltage tester on my Batman belt!
That company's response is pathetic. Won't be dealing with them at all
Edit: Also, I don't think they can do that with warranties, if it was a like for like replacement by a homeowner, then they have to honour the warranty, as it's an allowed activity under part P.
Effectively they're selling a product that you CANNOT install in the UK in a compliant manner. They need to state this on the packaging, and possibly shouldn't even be selling it. I agree with Steve, INSIDE appliances, neutral switching is commonly done, but within an installation, it's specifically forbidden.
It seems a case of swiift air going its not my job mate and hoping nobody noticed.
Having worked with lots of industrial and marine environments a lot of the industrial fans and a lot of the controls systems were a hodge podge of systems and never seemed to be a set setup.
Couldn't they wire it the opposite way so it switches the live 🤷♂️
Was never expecting an Onlyfans video from you David!
Damn! I totally missed a trick with the title there!
29:36 never trust sparky who wax his chest!
Looks smooth enough to land an aeroplane on!
K Y I spy ☝️👍
You should send it to bigclive.
😂
A 20p component kills a £30 fan simple fix assuming you have the skills.knowledge and understanding but in the real world who will change a capacitor on site?
Well, you wouldn't. I sure as shit didn't - I replaced the whole thing and was going to bin the duffer. It was only that fact I was halfway through making this video that gave me the impetus to look into why a Vent Axia had gone pop! Still, I could have switched to the second speed setting and left it on site had I thought of doing such.
@@dsesuk I actually have done that, but only because the robbing gits wanted £200 for a programmer on a boiler (and it was a mate).
@@dsesuk
I personally wouldn’t either but it goes to show a simple part renders a fan useless 👍👍
Jeez what a shit show and what a typical badly written canned response from the manufacturer. Like you say. Its always a series of events that 'shouldn't happen' but do happen that causes accidents. The real world is not ideal. But the jobsworth sat answering the emails doesn't understand the importance.
It makes me wonder did they just mess up the pcb design labels between L and n, and not realise until they had made thousands of them, and instead of chucking them away and wasting money, they just stuck with it because it still 'works'
Keep perusing it dave, it needs to be highlighted and addressed by the manufacturer properly