Shogun and the Sad Legacy of Game of Thrones
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- čas přidán 30. 04. 2024
- Preston and I discuss Shogun and how Game of Thrones' legacy, especially that finale, is to be forever compared to other medieval dramas.
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Shōgun is an American historical drama television miniseries created by Rachel Kondo and Justin Marks. It is based on the 1975 novel by James Clavell, which was previously adapted into a 1980 miniseries. Shōgun follows "the collision of two ambitious men from different worlds, John Blackthorne, a risk-taking English sailor who ends up shipwrecked in Japan, a land whose unfamiliar culture will ultimately redefine him; Lord Toranaga, a shrewd, powerful daimyo, at odds with his own dangerous, political rivals; and Lady Mariko, a woman with invaluable skills but dishonorable family ties, who must prove her value and allegiance.
Game of Thrones is an American fantasy drama television series created for HBO by David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Based on the fantasy novel series, A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. The series is set on the fictional continents of Westeros and Essos, and interweaves several plot lines with a large ensemble cast. The first narrative arc follows a civil conflict among several noble houses for the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms; the second covers the attempts to reclaim the throne by the exiled last scion of the realm's deposed ruling dynasty; the third chronicles the rising threat of the impending winter, the legendary creatures and fierce peoples of the North.
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The only bad thing about Shogun is that we didn't get more of it, superb stuff
True
Ummm, I kinda wanted him to actually become the Shogun lol
@@cbob213If it’s loosely based on history he should have tbh.
@@cbob213 Spoiler alert: he did 😂 if I'm not mistaken this is where the book ends as well.
Agreed. It is where the book ends though.
Still if they could get the rights, there's enough turmoil and intrigue in the first years of Ieyasu Tokugawa's tenure as shogun to fill multiple seasons of "based on" storytelling.
The ending of sorpanos is pretty good imo, it's respectful in a way to Tony's chacacter and it's also realistic, no matter if he died at the end, he will eventually because of his tragic lifestyle, always looking behind his shoulder.
Fans of the show look back at the ending in a better light nowadays
YOU SPOILED IT FOR ME!!!!!!
yeah at first i didnt like the cut to black, but after i rewatched the whole thing it went perfectly with the whole "you probably dont hear it when it happens".
@@conradmilligan I’m talking about how he spoiled the Sopranos ending!!!
@@instantcookedromancazk9557 why the heck are you reading a comment that starts with "the ending of sopranos" then?? thats your fault not his.
@@conradmilligan Brother you can see the entire paragraph and my eyes saw everything in an instant have you not done this accidentally?
I guess whoever wrote this paragraph missed the part where Mariko got the shit beat outta her and the only person that disaproved of it was the englishman
Very unrealistic when an englishman is on the right side. mhm
@@OfficialRedTeamReview The book was written by an Englishman after all
And he only protested because he's in love with her. After all, he prefaced his disapproval with "while a wife is a man's property and he has the right to beat her...." Which is how most cultures throughout the world saw it at the time.
@@someguy3186 eh, the show made that text come of as appeasement to that Buntaro husband and not actual belief.
but who knows, maybe the englishman abandoned his wife because he couldn't afford a divorce rock like Damon.
@@someguy3186 he didn't love the old man gardner and wasn't cool with that as well, cmon man Anjin sama has a heart of gold
Shogun and Fallout is the best shows of the year for me so far. Third body problem is pretty good too, but behind them imo
Shogun is easily top 3
Dude's see that top 3 and go "Hell yea"
Fallout is good??
ok I wanna hear your defense of Rings of Power.
And pls don't start with the costumes were great, you can do better.
Just wait for House of the Dragon season 2. Easily Top 1😂😂😂
Shogun spoilers incoming; go watch the show if you haven't, it is incredible!
There's literally a scene where Mariko's husband almost drunkenly kills her, and in Blackthorn's petition asking Toranaga to do something about it he basically says "Yeah women are property in England too, but could you ask this guy not to play with his wife's (and my lover's) life like that?" And by the end of the show, that character isn't even someone I could consider a villain...an antagonist sure, but complex enough that he's not outright evil. There's also Fuji, whose husband and infant son are taken from her in an honor-based murder/suicide, and her next responsibility is to become Blackthorn's concubine...
Women absolutely have power in Shogun; Mariko probably has the best character arc of the season. But it's not like it's portraying Feudal Japan in an unrealistic way. It does an excellent job of empowering women without flanderizing their characters to the degree they did with someone like Arya.
I will never forget how Arya survived being shanked in the gut, then jumped into a shitwater because one lady gave her a chicken soup. Meanwhile, Khal Drogo died for so much less.
Power is the theme, all right. It's another question entirely whether it portrays feudal Japan realistically or not. My view, for what it's worth, is it's heavily influenced by feminist ideology of the Hollywood bubble: subverting the patriarchy by decentering men and moving marginalized women to the center instead.
@@cocoacrispy7802 I have no idea if it's accurate to feudal Japan, but any analysis of the power dynamic needs to distinguish between formal and informal power... Even in patriarchal systems, women might have considerable informal power, even if formally they have no legal status at all, beyond that of property. That's not based on a feminist theory, it's how systems tend to work. My two cents.
@@nont18411 They gave Arya the Wolverine Origin Deadpool treatment and I'll never forgive them for that. The whole storyline in Braavos was a mess and the house of black and white was butchered from the ground up.
I am reminded of the Glidus "DiD yOu ReAd GaMe Of ThRoNeS?!" with that comparison article.
On the feminism comparison: GoT is a clear critique of the patriarchical society it portrays. Many types of women are shown, we see many who don't fit into traditional roles, but even those who do are abused and imprisoned by gender roles. This is text in many cases and subtext throughout. On the other hand Shogun is NOT a criticism of feudal Japan on a textual level. Blackthorn objects to some "barbarism", but is eventually won over. And he never has any criticism of the treatment of women. Even subtextually there isn't really a criticism there. The female characters have their own internal lives, but they never seek to live outside the status quo, and Mariko is completely in deference to it. You could even argue the show is an ENDORSEMENT of the values of Japanese feudalism. The very characters that kill peasants for minor reasons are meant to be out fondest heroes, for example. GoT is by far the more progressive show. I think what the author of that article was feeling (and failing to express) is that the female characters in Shogun are very intimately realized. Maybe they feel more intimate than GoT at times (a matter of opinion). But there is no question as to which show is more concerned with feminism.
I would have loved a weekly Shogun podcast
Preston didn't watch it
"Shogun" was excellent imo , definitely one of my favorite series of the year so far. Other than not showing Sekigahara , which was a bit of a missed opportunity seemingly only showing the assembled forces and a bit of an anticlimax there, i found it very satisfying and well done. Though probably could have used at least another episode. The acting was absolutely top notch as well imo. Of course I would take season two but especially showing Blackthorne old in bed with grandchildren around him and how they generally left off the series , it seemed they planned to keep it to one season.
Sometimes one and done , especially when its absolutely top level is a nice way to go out. Many series or films we wish they didn't persist with sequels or future seasons that never reached that level of the first film in a series or S1 etc. I would take season two but also appreciate a one and done unbelievably good season ; leaving us wanting more , and using our imaginations and reading up on history to fill in the gaps.
The Shogun novel is hardly just Blackthorne's perspective, if anything the show cuts a lot of the Japanese perspectives and removes a lot of depth from Toranaga/Ieyasu.
Yep, Toranaga in the show is just Japanese Tywin on steroids
@@nont18411 toranaga wishes he had an ounce of the personality that Tywin does
Maybe they're thinking of the 80's miniseries that didn't subtitle any of the Japanese. I think they felt you would lose people if you had subtitles on TV, so they go hard in the direction of experiencing Japan as Blackthorne.
They didn't read the book.
Really solid, thoughtful takes from Y'all. Subbed
A miniseries whose ending left the audience wanting more.
That’s a sign of a great show here. Albeit I didn’t consider it to be flawless, I still think it deserves to sweep those Emmys next year.
100%
There is a theory in Brazil (because our audiovisual industry is/was heavily based on soap operas) that puts the tendency of every show to become a soap opera as they get popular. The reasons are four: 1- what we like the most is character interaction, and you can exploit that indefinitely. 2- As the show-runners follow the audience, they can shift the storytelling as many characters you have, so people will not get bored 3- As your story gets longer, it loses quality, but you can compensate with more drama. 4- As you get larger audience, you have to consider less attention, less intelligence and less details.
So people are already watching their favorite series becoming more and more like a soap opera. And that's weird, because we stop watching soap opera in favor of deep and meaningful tv shows, but as they become more popular, the evolution doesn't go in favor of a better public, but a worse tv show.
“Man in High Castle” had tv seasons past the book
True but it wasn't that good beyond season 2
And no one's heard of it lol
@@globesurfer122 if people are mentioning it then that means someone has heard it. crazy that you think just because it doesn't trend on twitter that nobody has heard of it
Sure, Mariko was a great character (my favorite in the whole show, in fact). But she was pretty much the *only* female character with any considerable amount of screen time, so to say that she single-handedly beat all the female GoT characters combined seems weird. Even if you were to argue that Mariko is better than the most interesting GoT character, you can't possibly argue that she's more interesting than all of them combined.
Anything that gets people into japanese history (and east asian history at large) is good on my book.
Anime has kinda done that, for me at least
I wouldn't compare Shogun to Game of Thrones. They're totally different.
Seriously. I keep hearing that and I can’t see anything similar. It’s just a Japanese Marco Polo
I mean it has various nobles trying to out maneuver each other which is pretty similar to games of Thrones.. shogun is of course a much more focused series
Game of thrones was a medieval fantasy with magical tropes. Shogun was based on a true story in feudal Japan.
@@haymaker710 The majority of early game of thrones is only fantasy in the sense that i is based in a fictional world. As far as most of the characters are concerned, magic barely exists.
Not to mention that A song of Ice and fire heavily borrows from historical events.
Also, saying that Shogun is based on a true story is pushing it imo. It is based on a historical novel which obviously uses a ton real events as a backdrop, but much of the personal drama is fiction.
@@MaMastoast In the later seasons of Game of Thrones they brought back dead characters with magic. They used magic shape shifting assassins to kill their enemies and they fought magic ice zombies with dragons. Either way it's nothing like feudal Japan.
Great episodes the whole way through. I kept waiting for a big setpiece/spectacle in the last couple episodes, but it wasn't needed. Almost all of the thrilling moments, of which there were many, came through dialogue. And just gorgeous to look at.
theres hints all threw out the series what it means the fade to black. if you watched the series closely you know what it means.
not a bad ending
Have you guys watched 'Blue Eye Samurai'? It was also absolutely fantastic.
It was great, i agree.
You guys.. It’s funny that came here for shogun but ended up listening to game of thrones for most of it 😂
;D
We remember and judge the show through the ending because if the story doesn't manage to end well, then any of the inside plots and stories lose their meaning. It's not the same to end a story in tragedy and bitterness as long as that was always the intent. Maybe I want to tell a story about a drug addict fighting their demons and the struggle in the way to healing both mentally and physically, but I plan to end the story having the main character ultimately failing their journey, so then I will make sure to plant clues to my audience to tell them "watch this knowing that it may not have a happy ending, and there not being a happy ending for the MC could be part of the message and lesson I wish to share." this way, even if the MC fails their journey, it can still be satisfying. But what would happen if I don't clarify any of this from the start? I will have real addicts or people that have addicts in their lives, expecting to be inspired by the story of the MC, only to seemingly out of nowhere show them their worst fatalistic case scenario, I could completely ruin someone's motivation to be better or to even try to do it.
Imagine how many people felt like this with the many butchered endings for the very beloved characters from GOT, both heroes and villains. How many saw Jaimie just suddenly reject his new self, how many were motivated by Daenerys' dream of freedom, equality and inclusivity, only to see all her work be for nothing at the end (freed slaves became murderers and slavers themselves, Daenerys became a mas murderer and tyrant just like the men that oppressed and abused her).
Who remembers a majestic take off when the pilot fumbled everything and fatally crashed at the end?
meanwhile Preston still havent seen Severance despairge
I don’t know how you’d have any major character development in the 2nd season with John or Toranagea. John is trapped in Japan and Toranagea will never let him leave and he doesn’t. Toranagea will become Shogun which he pretty much said at the end of the show. I like how it ended and don’t think there’s any need to go any further. They’d only be tempted to change it.
The biggest plothole in Shogun is when they offer Blackthorn a male consort and he acts shocked. This is a BRITISH SAILOR. The man has seen more buggery than the whole island of Japan.
I hear the show Shardlake on Hulu/Disney+ is really good. I've read the novel series, which will likely remain unfinished since the author, CJ Sansom, passed away.
They literally say Mariko is considered her abusive husband's property. Wtf was that person talking about?
Exactly
I see why IGN might be getting their impression that women in Sengoku era Japan were treated better. They were educated, learned to fight, managed their husbands' finances, and a modern day person might see that and get the impression that they were seen as equal to men. Fact is, these freedoms were awarded only to a certain class of women and even then, authors of this article ignored the part where a woman was still her husband's property. The reason a woman could fight was so that she might defend her husband's property when he was away, or so that she could accompany him to battle when he wished it. The historical basis for Kiri-no-kata once accompanied her husband into battle despite being pregnant, which lead to her miscarrying and never being able to have children.
And their comment about sex workers being more respected is just... Kiku is not a standard prostitute. She is a yujo, literally the highest class of her profession. You still get "lower-rank" prostitutes who get humiliated and killed.
Shogun actually deals a lot with the struggle of women in that era and the authors are just ignoring all that to gush about how egalitarian feudal Japanese society was.
I think one of the strengths of shogun is that they do not shy away from the unfair nature of society. The old gardner is executed because the foreigner is severely I'll equipped to run a household, Mariko and her husband are stuck in painful agonizing marriage.. and its within these awful circumstances we get to see people triumph in their own ways..
Mariko didn't get a happy ever after but she managed to give her death the meaning she felt she lacked in life.
@@MaMastoast You're absolutely right, thank you for putting this into words so well.
I was disappointed by no big battle but on second watch it was still a very very good finale
I was wanting the Battle of Sekigahara
@@OfficialRedTeamReview The creators would not of had the budget to do a Battle of Sekigahara episode justice. GoT couldn’t do their big battle episodes until a couple of seasons in after HBO had grown the viewership and therefore had money to produce them. With the huge success of Shōgun’s first season, they’ll have the budget for big Sekigahara and siege of Osaka castle episodes in season 2.
Shogun saga has 3 books. The second book is called Gaijin
The problem is that there are no more epic battles and stand-offs.
I read recently that game of thrones is still the most streamed and pirated series even 5 years after it ended. I feel a lot of talk about its “ruined legacy” is mostly online brained stuff. I’ve never met anyone in the real world who’s upset that they watched it even if they didn’t like the ending.
'Six Feet Under' Best series finale.
Just on the topic of which had a worse ending Sopranos or Game of Thrones, Sopranos ending didn’t ruin anything. Sure it leaves a lot of stuff unresolved but no one can tell me that that conclusion isn’t in keeping with the message of the rest of the show and deeply laid and rewarding to unpack and contemplate. Because of the way Game of Thrones was seized every episode is naturally leading to a conclusion so a bad ending ruins the whole show because you always remember where the character go. I love the first couple of Game of Thrones seasons. They introduced me to dark fantasy and I’ll always be grateful for that but I understand why people hate Game of Thrones as a show so much because it’s impossible to enjoy the early stuff now.
I do agree about the somewhat tunnel-visioned often hyperbolic critiques and unfortunately hate of GoT and D&D after GoT ended. Though i'd argue at most 4 great seasons , S5 to me was as bad as any GoT season and after that S6 pretty good and then S7 and S8 clear massive drop offs. I was as let down and at times angry about the latter seasons. But people tend to forget the only reason we were so mad and let down was because of how well D&D did / GoT was for the first 4 seasons. Hence why it was such of a phenomenon and reached the heights rarely matched by any series. Also , GoT opened the flood gates for more and more fantasy series after that. I do think at times the D&D hate is a bit much , latter seasons very justified criticisms but there is often no acknowledgment of how well they did with the first 4 seasons of GoT. GoT S1-S4 some of my all time favorite television.
And with D&D I have enjoyed "3 Body Problem" thus far as well ; its very difficult material to adapt and maybe not some huge mega-hit but don't think ratings were poor either. To me took a couple episodes to find its footing but I overall enjoyed that series.
there were some powerful women during that period of Japanese history. They should make a prequel series based on the novel Taiko by Yoshikawa Eiji. It tells the story of Tokugawa Ieyasu's predecessor Toyotomi Hideyoshi, whose wife, Princess Nene, was the brains behind his leadership. It would be great.
There's a second book but it happens two centuries after Shogun, technically the Asian saga is very similar to the novels of David Mitchell ( cloud Atlas being the most famous of them ), all of them are connected and there's some characters , or their descendants, appear here and there.
One series is loose magic realism, the other is more realistic historical novel.
Like Lord of the Rings paving the way for historical epics, Game of Thrones has forged an amazing legacy.I only know some cosmetic changes from book to screen. I read them to late
Roose Bolton and Mance Rayder actors are meeting in an Irish kitchen declaring it a sour goats milk free zone, rather than surrounded up against The Wall as the Karstarks and Umbers knew they we there. The Cersified Gorgo in 300 Rise of an Empire, even before Leonidas was killed in the flash back mocks Themistocles, she does that sympathetic held tilt that put Littlefinger in his place. Sam could have returned to his role like the sarcastic Sam in the Battle for The Wall helping Jon set up the settlement Ned planned to empower him with.
I'm glad he pointed out that IGN article makes no sense.
Loved Shogun. Segwaying to GOT, The following is a LOOONG POST. So bear with me. After years of learning about many wonderful fan theories, rewriting and rewriting ideas, etc: I propose THE FOLLOWING AS AN IMAGINARY REWRITE OF THE show. Whatcha think?
Seasons 2-4, before the Mountain and the Viper
- Arya and her friends escape Harrenhaul
without ever encountering the Faceless Man
- a subplot of the show is Lord Commander Mormont’s message of forgiveness to Jorah taking a convoluted path to get to him.
- Gendry’s departure from the group is more like the books. He never reenters the story
-Stannis never goes to Braavos
- Robb’s romantic partner in the show is Jeyne. She does genuinely fall in love with him, and is killed at the Red Wedding
- The “scene” between Jaime and Cersei in the Sept is the same as in the book.
- Tywin tells Cersei the Westerlands are running low on gold, not out of it.
Season 4, after The Mountain and the Viper
- The Mountain is truly dead. There will never be a Robert Strong.
- Jaime tells Tyrion the truth about Tysha. Tywin says that "last I heard she and your welp died in childbirth. After that....wherever whores go".
- Varys stays in Kings Landing.
- Brienne, Pod, Arya, and the Hound team up.
- Lady Stoneheart is revealed to the audience.
Season 5
- Prophecy of Cersei being killed by her younger brother revealed
- Cersei sends Jaime to the Riverlands (without Bronn).
- Cersei sends Arys Oakheart to sneak Myrcella out of Dorne.
- At a gentle moment between Myrcella and Tristen, Ellaria gives a gentle “revenge is pointless” speech to Oberyn’s daughters. They are not necessarily plotting revenge. Just sad over thier father’s death.
- Arys accidentally kills Myrcella. He is killed.
-At the end of the season, we see Doran telling some people to make sure everyone knows what happened. As some people leave, a little black bird lands near him.
- Arya and her allies join with the Brotherhood Without Banners (with Lady Stoneheart), and Nymeria and her wolfpack. Arya and Sansa explore their warging powers. Baelish dies at the end of season 5.
- Varys dies of a burst belly at the end of season 5, using the last of his strength to have his little birds kill Pycelle and Keavan.
- When Jaime gets Cersei's letter, he deserts his army and goes north.
- Dany and Drogan don't return to the Dothraki Sea
- Yara and Theon end up with Stannis's army (no burning of Shireen)
- Euron kills Balon after telling him about Dragonbinder. We see Euron arrive at the Kingsmoot.
Season 6
- Jon warged into Ghost. Mel brings him back, but this kills Mel and Ghost
- Jon ends up with Stannis's army.
- The Stark/Vale forces kill Walder Frey, then find Jaime, who joins them.
- We see some scenes of Sam at the Citadel. Him learning stuff. Some maesters see the horn he brought with him. He learns the legend that the Horn of Winter is actually at the Citadel. His mom arrives (Sam sent her a letter). Sam is there when Euron attacks. He sends Gilly, little Sam, and his mom away (they escape). Tries to trick Euron into thinking his horn is the horn of winter. This fails and he is killed. Euron blows the horn of winter.
- Bran learns more about the history of Planatos. Such as:
. In the distant past, there was a war between the ancestors of the Children, different groups of humans, and other species.
. The Children’s ancestors made the Night King/Walkers at what would become the Winterfell Godswood.
. The Night King is the conduit for the White Walker collective, and this conduit is the origin of multiple figures of legend, such as the 13th Lord Commander and the Great Other.
. The war unleashed multiple horrors aside from the Walkers. Horrors the different factions united against to stop, though it was too late to prevent thier societies from slowly decaying afterwards. If the Walkers spread, they could awaken the horrors.
. The Night King needs to be destroyed at the Winterfell Godswood.
- Bran appears to let out a "scream" across time and space. Lots of things about this are ambiguous. Possible that some things he does are deliberate, others are by accident. After this moment ends, and the Walkers find their way to the tree, Wyls being turned into Hodor appears to be a delayed and unintended action. Bran later says while he has many new abilities, he can't time travel anymore. It was a one-shot trick.
- Rickon and Osha die in the snow before reaching the Umbers. Shaggydog seems to find his way to Jon.
- Some White Walkers end up south of the wall thanks to Euron blowing the horn, and attack Winterfell in the middle of Stannis's battle with the Boltons.
- Lots of characters die, including Shaggydog, the Boltons, Stannis and his family, Yara, and Theon.
- The Stark/Vale army arrives in time to save Jon.
- At the end of the season, Bran arrives and proclaims R+L=J. Jon is given the name Stark and proclaimed King.
- We see Cersei descend when she learns Myrcella is dead. We don’t ever see the destruction of Kings Landing (which is the result of Euron blowing the horn) but we see her and Tommen on the road. After some defiance by Tommen, she kills him. We see Euron’s forces claim her.
- Dany and Tyrion realize Tyrion is a Targaryen. Daario tries to betray Dany and is killed. Jorah dies. A three person elected council is left in charge of Meereen.
Season 7
- Meera and Bran have a heartfelt goodbye.
- Bran uses the moon to communicate with Dany and Tyrion. They talk with him and the Starks. They agree to bypass what's left of Kings Landing and go straight to White Harbor.
- They march to Winterfell. White Walkers break through the Wall in force and march on Winterfell.
- The Battle of the Long Night sees many secondary characters, including Lady Stoneheart, Brienne, Pod, Davvos, the Hound, and all that is left of the Brotherhood Without Banners and Nightswatch, die.
- Bran, who a bunch of the Children of the Forest and Bloodraven live in, is shown to have the power to make crops grow, and to psychally duel the White Walker collective. Everytime a Wright or Walker is killed by the Three Heads of the Dragon and their armies, it helps Bran.
- Arya is forced to warg into Nymeria.
- Lyanna and Jon duel the Night King. Lyanna is killed. Jon stops him from stabbing Bran.
- Nymeria cuts the Night King with the knife. This disrupts the Night King long enough for Bran to destroy him.
- Tyrion is shown trying to forgive a grieving Jaime. Jaime learns about the Valonqar Prophecy.
- The armies of Jon, Dany, and Tyrion move south to try and deal with Euron. Jaime also heads south, struggling with dealing with questions of fate, free will, etc.
- When Jaime finds Cersei he declares he won't kill her the way the prophecy said, but he blocks her escape. They both die when something falls on them.
- Euron is killed and Dragonbinder lost (The Horn of Winter dissolved after one use), but Jon and Tyrion's dragons die and they warg into Dany. The three minds fuse into one consciousness.
- It is agreed that the 7 Kingdoms will break up as a political entity, with Bran being the intermediary between the different realms to promote peace. He also takes control of Drogon.
- The last scene of the series is Dany riding north, Arya-Nymeria and her wolfpack at her side. Dialogue suggests that after Dany pledges fealty to Sansa, she will get the Dreadfort, which she plans to rename the Dragonfort (and paint red doors on).
I think that making a sequel to a show that certainly promoted the notion of the transience of life, love, and beauty, might be a mistake.
Me and partner laughed at the show so many times, it was so hammy.
"True Blood" is a book that the HBO adaptation went off on uncharted territory for. I was surprised you two didn't mention it. "13 Reasons Why" was also just one book and Netflix milked it for several seasons . . . three of which were actually enjoyable.
I just didn't think about it at the time of recording and for good reason. I loved True Blood's first 3 seasons. Then season 4 was terrible and it got worse
@@OfficialRedTeamReview James Clavell stuck close enough to real events that they can just pick up with the actual historical narrative - which I would argue is more compelling than anything Clavell mashed together. Plus Disney no longer has to pay James Cavell’s estate for the content, they can just cut and paste from the history books.
@@OfficialRedTeamReview I was late to get on the "True Blood" train as I saw the premiere but I lost interest after a few episodes only to come around years later as the fandom exploded. Never knew it was a book initially. Loved the first three seasons of "13 Reasons Why" even though they didn't have me as their target demographic (straight black male). I don't ask for much but on an ensemble cast . . . it's nice to be thought of and included lol. I view "13 Reasons Why" as a Sugar-Free version of "Euphoria" in a way. Never heard of the book either but I thought the second season was a natural progression of the first season and effectively enhanced the characters going forward. I can see the same potential for the characters in "Shogun" should FX decide to do a season two
Have you guys any opinion on "Warrior" which is produced by Bruce Lee's daughter and based on his manuscripts?!? One of the main characters is debuting on "House of the Dragon" this Summer 🏝️ ⛱️🌞. Keiran Bew played a seasoned but flawed San Francisco beat cop and family man who gets promoted to head the new Chinatown Special Unit. He has been cast as Hugh Hammer 🔨 on HotD. I still harbor hope that Netflix will order a fourth season of "Warrior" because it is truly one of the very best shows of the last decade (it premiered in 2019).
Well-rounded with multiple subplots and fantastic characters and then late in the season everything comes to a head as the multiple storylines of "Warrior" converge . . . far more than just an Asian martial arts show which was my initial impression from the advertising in 2019 by Cinemax. I only started watching it during COVID-19 quarantine as it was free on Prime Video. Loved it so much that I signed up for Cinemax to support it for the second season premiere. "Shogun" didn't stick the landing in its last two episodes while "Warrior" does and gets even better in the sophomore season!!
Good Omens is another show that goes beyond the single book (granted, it is done by the same author based on plans he had with the co author).
The way the article is written seems like the author wants to crap on GoT because it’s the cool thing to do.
They focus on Dany & Cercei; although Dani’s story is one of starting at the very bottom as a breeding mare (pun intended) and climbing her way to the top. Then ignore Arya, Sansa, Catelyn, Brienne, “Yara”, Melisandre…
The worst legacy of GoT is that now every epic is compared to GoT, even though Shogun feels much more like HBO’s Rome than it did GoT
Sopranos had a great ending. When the series had wrapped up, the complete story was told. GOT ended and so many interesting characters had shock value/ wasteful deaths, which screams lazy writing. That is on top of idiotic character choices and plotholes galore.
Shogun convinced me I need to watch more Eastern based film and media because holy shit I was captivated for every episode
it's a western show based on books by a westerner. the only asian part there is some of the actors were born in japan.
but I get you, I find korean and japanese dramas made by and for asians to have very stiff acting or frequent overacting.
Try Departures (2008), it's accessible to westerners but it's an all out japanese production. Won Oscar for foreign film.
Many Asian shows don’t have subs so you’re stuck with whatever language they speak.
@@HisameArtwork fair enough. Ironically the spike Lee remake of old boy fits the stiff & overacting superlatives you used tho
@@KhanMann66 I'm coming to find this out. Thankfully 3rd party subtitles aren't as rare as they used to be
❤
Shogun is really good but it's not on the same level as GOT, there wasn't enough action and in my opinion the final episode was a bit of a let down because they kept teasing this crimson sky plan and then the whole thing was just a voice over of what he would do
The book is told from the perspective of numerous characters. William is the protagonist but we get many POVs . The show is no different .
They did not read the book.
So, they just assumed the change was made for the modern audience.
I didn’t stay on stream the other day but were you able to talk to destiny about GoT the other day?
yes, that was me
If anything, they need to give the Shogun guys a contract for a multi season historical drama. Adapt the Accursed Kings series?
Im realy getting irritated with this revisionist view on Game of Thrones's Violence/sex/Nudity when its on a Premium TV network thats always been about pushing the standards on the limits of whats on TV.
It is a fucking TV Network for Adults that you have to pay for because its not for kids.
Id actually be 100% fine with FX Keeping shogun as a 10 episode Mini series,but using this project as a Springboard for other Historical Drama series with my biggest wish being a 3/4 Season show set during the Life of Alexander the Great.
Think about how HBO's Rome Series mistakes when it came to the Budget not being enough to support the series and how they took what they learned from that show and put that into the Production of Game of Thrones,and then how House of the Dragon improved on that when it came to the Armor Designs/Heraldy and clothes/Jewelry.
People got used to the more sanitised streaming shows and forgot what HBO was all about in the past. But to be fair, Season 1 of Thrones has a few really unnecessary sex scenes in it - like Littlefinger and the two girls in the brothel scene.
Fun thing about both Shogun and Marco Polo is that of all the characters therein the European was the character I liked the least.
The difference between Thrones and Sopranos endings is how the fans talk and debate over the meaning of Tony's fate, on the other hand nearly every GoT fans hates the ending with no debate.
"Nearly every" Not true brother
The only parts i didn't quite like in shogun were some of the ship/boat scenes, they often felt very overexposed and generally kinda awkward.
Also kinda expected more from the final episode.. but the rest of the show more than makes up for it
Good show but lacks the action of GoT. Also I find it silly to compare a fantasy show to a show about real history, ASOIAF had alot more to offer because of the magic and Dragons etc.
Shouldn't it be fairly straightforward to make a second season since the book is a loose adaptation of real life events? Like the battle of sekigahara actually happened and we know who won. We know about the edo period that followed and even the life of William Adams who the main character of shogun is based on.
GRRM: “We don’t need any more Dark Lords.”
Also GRRM: “I’ll just change them to Fair Ladies!”
🤷♀️ Expectations subverted.
I'm hoping House of the Dragon Season 2 is really good this year. Season 1 of House of the Dragon was very promising and so far for Season 2 I look forward to the Great War of the Dragon soon.
You can’t spell ignorant without IGN
More seasons could be done with the other asia-saga books
If Yoshii Torunaga was reincarnated in Game of Thrones as a lord. He definitely will win. He is honorable like Ned but also Machiavellian like Tywin.
Honorable? It turned out that Toranaga was the one responsible for everyone’s death. He treated his followers like disposable tools, readily exploiting their loyalty in his insatiable quest for power. Season 2 will get you to hate him.
@@destinationsunnyside250 in context of a Japanese Daimyo. He is relatively fair but not above using his subjects.
He certainly is better than Ishido or the rest of the Regent's Council. He might even be more cruel and cunning than Twin. And that is why he will likely win in Season 2 if they make one.
Marco Polo was a magnificent show
eeeh
didnt feel like a closure at end of season 1 at all, think they green lit season 2 already
I wouldn't give much credence to that article, it is clearly bait for controversy, mentioning only 2 female characters crom GoT.
Have you guys seen the original show from the 80s?
I have not but I plan to
People’s eventual reaction to Game of Thrones is very accurate. Only when something is truly excellent there is a time delay before they realize it has turned to crap. Game of Thrones was brilliant for four seasons, though still not nearly as good as the books. Then it was a terrible adaption and a lousy show for seasons five through eight, people just had and some still have a hangover for seasons five and six bc we have the same great characters and actors and a few well done episodes, but the plot went to crap, the entire story of the actual Winds of Winter was lost w the omission of Lady Stoneheart, Young Griff, Stannis post Battle of Ice, and dragon-rider warlock Euron, and many character arcs were already well on their way to being ruined during those seasons.
Y’all should check out Tokyo vice. Season 2 I think is better than shogun. Story wise at least
The problem with George RR Martin's character-writing is that he's dishonest. He starts out by giving the reader one take, then adds previously withheld bits, the goal being to change the reader's sympathies toward the character. Basically, he's messing with you. Of course a character can change, but, imo, the legitimate basis of change has to be new experience or knowledge. This is the problem with Buntaro.
Likewise with Blackthorne; they give us his 'inner motivation'' in a dream - only in the last episode! (to be fair, already in the first episode, he declares he's basically out to plunder Japan). A responsible writer would have made Blackthorne's growing appreciation (in the fullest sense)of Japan - and hence his inner conflict - part of every episode. As it is, the charge of 'white colonialist' feels phony, ex machina and ideological, especially - pot meet kettle - coming from Rachel Kondo, who comes from a Hawai'i that was basically colonized by her Japanese forebears.
you read Shogun but you call Blackthorn the white guy, Preston?
idk, I found it hard to watch... it started off rather strong but lost me around the middle of the season.
I guess I'm the kind of watcher who needs more handholding. The feudal Japanese culture felt very foreign to me and I simply didn't get why many people acted how they acted.
I can't count how many times someone felt offended by some BS and offered to off themselves. It got almost comical.
I think it should have been portrayed more from the white guy's perspective for someone like me.
Also the action scenes were very underwhelming imho. It felt very unrealistic to me.
So, everything interesting about it were the dialogues which was also like 80% of the show.
The only bad thing about shogun is the main character, what is with the way he walks and his eyes, it's like he took brain damage and his limbs aren't lineing up with his intentions, is it sea legs, is he partly blind, does he have a broken pelvis, only been through it the once but I feel I'm right here, scurvy legs?
lol, I kinda see what you mean. He was odd but enjoyable imho.
Daenerys was developed well for 8 seasons. No need for a daenerys grieving her dragons for 10 minutes when she already contemplated burning citys and killing innocents for the greater good long before her final deed.
No Shogun 2 you say? SHAMEFUR DISPRAY
I loved hiring monks and leveling them up enough to incite riots and take over the provinces.
Ah yes take after shogun, game of thrones should of ended season 4 with bran telling us how the story ended. 😂😂😂 I get why people like shogun and I did till ep 8. But it's writing brilliance vanished, go look back most don't make sense. That dude dying had no effect and next ep anyone talking about it didn't buy it 😂😂 his death really was meaningless. And for the finale with toranga telling us how the story ends wasn't interesting or satisfying for closer. It's like your mate telling you about the show instead of watching it. And after all his dumb moves and sacrifices don't like toranga at all.
For me, GoT's horrid ending soured the earlier seasons. I have zero interest to watch them again since I now know how badly it all ends. Every time I see Dany on screen, I can't help but think of how she gets put down like a rabid dog by someone who supposedly loved her. All of her struggles and triumphs along the way make no difference in the end. It's pretty much that way with every character. Sticking the landing is important on a show that epic in scope, and D&D bungled it.
Hey
That article is such bullshit. Someone with a degree they paid too much money for making something out of nothing. That said, Shogun is amazing. Best TV this year and for a few years, except maybe Succession.
I couldn’t disagree more strongly! I hated Season 5 of GoT and every Season thereafter, despite the first four seasons being great. Furthermore, apart from the casting and acting, many of the changes in the show that were effective at the time were really bad choices in retrospect because they replaced set up for storylines that the show failed without or they portrayed the Starks as too perfect or they relfected David Benioff’s warped perception of Dany that is not and never had been and won’t be Geoege Martin’s future for her, period.
it was entertaining to watch David Benioff set up Dany with the tropes of a femme fatale using lots of sex scenes with a 23-year-old sexy actress and increasing use of film noir lighting for her specifically, but that is not George Martin’s 13-year-old character who is preoccupied with rescuing women and children and ending slavery.
Bc most of the show is from the books, there is still way, way more set up for a dark Tyrion ending than a dark Dany ending, as well as set up for dark Ayra and dark Bran and dark Jon if Martin chose to go there. But what we have in the shoe for dark Dany are still mostly the speeches added for her in early seasons of the show that are not in the books combined with the omission of prophecies about her from the books about bearing a living human child and returning to Essos at the end of the story.
Orange is the new black? Really thats the best you could do haha
Uh...was i trying to do a thing? what?
Oof even pretending that you can argue about GoT and Sopranos endings...
There exist zero similarities between these two television productions. I can't figure out why those of us with GOT TV show/GRRM won't finish Winds of Winter trauma keep trying to compare anything with a wee bit of political drama as the same as GOT....
u barely discuss Thrones anymore. Call your podcast ‘Three-Eyed Media’, (a la Three-Eyed Raven), have animation, clips, or an interview style podcast and continue to discuss the same news and show analyses u do now. - the more stylistic podcast format might attract a wider audience as well.
Much love. I’ve been a long time fan. it’s good advice, hope you consider..
of course if u still want to retain a ‘game of thrones / a song of ice and fire backdrop’, u definitely should - it’s what attracted us, your main audience.
and for all the franchise’s faults ‘A song of ice and fire’ is certainly our generations greatest literary work of fiction (or at the very least, a top 3 contender). Using it as a backdrop or constant comparison in your analysis of new media, as u currently do, would be great and appropriate. just as it was with earlier fantasy works and Tolkien, not to mention all of English literature and Shakespeare. but u get the point
I won't consider it as I've always done the same thing, and still do which makes this comment weird and baseless but thanks anyway!
@@OfficialRedTeamReview sorry if my tone or delivery was off, I typed that very late at night after a sesh. I could’ve been a lot better with my wording
but no worries, love you guys’ content and look forward to more of videos
Fantastic show. On par with GoT season 1 and The Wire and The Sopranos season 1. It’s not as good as the entires series of those shows. Only 1 season to go by.
Agreed
the ending of sopranos was great
Shogun was too short, and Game of Thrones was too long
fair
Aria:assassin Catalina:mother Cersei and Alicent hightower:mother and scemer Daenerys: having second thoughts etc.
CAN YOU PLEASE REDO THE INTRO WITH A CORRECTLY PRONOUNCED 'S' IN 'EPISODE'? It really irritates me every time
Wow. Preston being fair about gender politics for once 😮 what!!! He usually goes down the women are oppressed always rabbit hole.
I don't think Shogun was that financially successful unfortunately so I'm not sure they can even make a second season.
If they are able to make more stuff I'd rather they just adapt more of Clavell's novels into 1-2 seasons of TV each. Tai-pan and Noble House especially.
That's a shame if true, about it not being financially successful
They all have terrible endings. Tired of vesting time in a show, that's going to piss me off at the end. Showgun is four play without the climax. Blue balls all around.badly done.
Not everything has to end with a huge action sequence…the ending was true to the show and perfectly tied up most of the characters
There was a CZcamsr who proclaimed that "Shogun" might be the greatest series ever . . . to which I replied "It was very good but . . . "Warrior" was better because"Shogun" really didn't deliver in the last two episodes.". I want a second season and hope to get one but even a second season of "Shogun" would struggle to match "Warrior" season two which was superbly built upon the spectacular first season. "Shogun" had tremendous potential but it's earlier episodes were honestly better than the later episodes . . . they just didn't deliver the big battle sequence that was built up most of the season 😢.
Compared to the Christian West, Japanese society doesn't have any ideology about men and women. Therefore there is no fixed superiority of men against women. In the sengoku period women were more active freely compare to the Edo period. Even now outside the house women step back behind men but inside the house women are stronger than men. Women take care of finance. But in the west men don't let women take care of the finance.
You’re right. I’ve read a similar statement from a man knowledgeable about Asian countries. Is this a part of your education, or job?
@@wserthmar8908 no I am just interested in history with religion, philosophy and culture.
I usually disagree with the woke takes on this channel and try to tune out the non-thrones talk, but Preston’s assessment of the article was for the most part spot on and is a place I can find common ground. Maybe there is some hope for this world after all.
There are no "woke" takes on this channel. We're literally the most logical people to cover this. If you think what we say is "woke" then I feel bad for you
I swear those writers just want a girl boss like captain marvel. These characters suck and are annoying as hell.
Shogun was absolute ass
😅😅😂 ROTFLMAO 😂😂😆. It was as good as advertised until those last two episodes which just didn't deliver what was being built up over the majority of the episodes. There is no way someone can seriously watch season one of "Warrior" then season one of "Shogun" and say that "Shogun" was superior . . . not in good faith. It wasn't ass but it wasn't all that because of the last two episodes. "Warrior" delivered on the promise of the earlier episodes in the last two.
It was a terrible show
Shogun was very meh in my opinion. Very predictable and not much happened in the middle of the season, kinda dragged on. Marco Polo was much more entertaining.
You are the first person i have heard say that. The drama was wonderful.
Sopranos ending was great, very interesting and creative.