“I’ve Got Arms Like a Crocodile!” - Dakotah Norton Explains His Unique Bar Height
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2024
- Get all the details on why Dakotah has consistently gone to a higher and higher front end, now settling on 75mm rise handlebars. It makes for an eye catching look, but there a reason behind every millimeter.
Does this make you consider changing the front end height on your bike? Let us know in the comments!
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I remember starting out in mtb back around 2009 and everyone was on a 640mm low rise bar and 180mm xt crankset. Seat angles were super slack. I picked up a mongoose xc dually from my lbs for first bike (canaan). Coming from BMX I went with what was considered an outlandish setup for an xc bike with a 700x40mm bar, 50mm stem and used a 165mm BMX crank with a single chainring. People had no idea what to do when I rocked up at the trails on it. Fast forward to 2024 and wide bars are the status quo with rise coming back, 1x setups are normal and crank arms are shorter. My setup has stayed pretty much the same over 15 years except I'm now on a 760x50mm bar and have 150mm travel. Still on the same crank size and a 1x setup.
Remember the guy who made the raised reversed stem maybe there’s something to this riding more upright thing.
I saw him at Sea Otter with a revised, lower version. His concept isn't just height, it's about the position on the steerer tube too. He said he wanted to develop a frame to work with it.
I've run 60mm bars for over a year.
I'll never ride a bike with lower bars. I love the BMX feeling
I have come to same conclusion. As I've improved (and gotten older) and riding steeper stuff, I've gone from flat to 20, to 30mm, and now on 60mm bars. I no longer get the imminent OTB feeling on the steep bits, even with some big chop, I have room to move on the bike and let it just move around without running out of rope.
I hate how most companies prioritize 30-40 deg rise
@@FOTB407 I also experimented with sweep to fix some arm pump, and 12 degree is my happy place.
@utahjohn5480 I tried renthal 40mm bars they have very little sweep and put a lot of strain on my elbows.
I've got spank spoon 60mm bars on now, and they are so comfortable.
New to game of only three years.. and was thinking about this for my new bike .
Such a cool thing to hear casual discussions the pros are having about their setups, personalization given their body types, and realize that the fears and hangups they have are the same as anyone else's (given the fact that they're light speed fast and 10x capable compared to the rest of us)
I’ve been saying this for a long time. Long legs and short torso/arms requires tall bars to have the same back angle as average people. I’m all legs and always struggled to get my weight off the front axle. Getting tall bars (40mm) with a long headtube and a bunch of spacers finally got me in a right position.
I am with you on this theory. Switching to a frame with much more stack and a 42 mm bar was a game changer for me.
36 inch inseam 6 ft 4 height. Tall bars are essential. Stacked up with a 40mm bar works well for me.
The same for me. 1.77M height. In all my bikes I needed a larger seat tube or dropper to pedal comfortably. Currently using a 210mm dropper on a 2018 stump jumper size M, not even slamming the dropper the whole way down into the frame. I dont like L frames the handle bar is to far away from me.
When I am sitting for example on a bus my head is the same height as most women, cause my torso is very short.
All these years I was lacking control on my bike, suffering swore hands and had to stop regularly at most descends to extend my swore legs. I just got taller bars, I trie to use my bars just a little bit lower than my seat instead of insanely lower, and that magically got me rid the swore and improved my riding downhill dramatically.
Super cool to hear the process and thought. Obviously the setup is working for the dude. Love to see it.
The evolution from Stack Norton to Chopper Norton - I can dig it! 🤘
But seriously, nobody can tell him what works for him and what doesnt. And he got the results to prove it.
No one can tell any rider whats works for them, just have fun 🤙
No one can tell any rider whats works for them, just have fun 🤙
It was awesome meeting you at The Rock but even more so at Bakers and seeing how "normal" you are, keep killing it brother!
Love it when I get validation from a pro that my setup is not completely stupid. I have been running 75mm risers on my trail and enduro bikes for a few years, having worked up from the oem 30mm, then 50mm first. I am 195cm tall and found that the increased stack height gives me a more balanced feeling on the bike. With lower rise bars I always felt like I was falling over the front of the bike and struggled to un-weight the hands. Now I am able to transfer all my weight to the front wheel through my feet and keep the hands light where I need to. When you compare my seat height to my handlebar height, the seat is still higher than the bars, and when you compare that to smaller bikes they all have similar set up i.e ratio of rider height to stack height is made more equal when using the higher rise bars. People mistakenly think that the higher bars make climbing more difficult, but i does not. If you think about it, you don't apply weight to the front wheel through your hands when climbing, it's through your seating position. With higher bars, all that changes is that your arms might be a bit closer to your chest, but I find it no more difficult than if I had lower rise bars. An added benefit is that I gain a few mm of reach as I run my bars fairly vertical, and this also benefits the steering feel.
I run 60mm bars. I'm actually thinking about 80s. I'm a tall guy. I like being more upright, and not all hunched over. Doesn't affect my climbing abilities either.
Bikes needs to be proportional not just different seat post heights and longer top tubes...Head tubes should be taller for taller bikes sizes. Taller bars are great for dirt jumpers too
I knew this clip would be a clip...
Ive been running hi riser bars for years as well 50mm + running 40mm with spacers on a one up ebar now and wish it was 60mm
Dakotah seems like a cool guy
I love all the in depth discussion about body position, front end loading, geometry, suspension, etc. Bottom line, if Dakota doesn't feel like he's going over the bars, he'll go faster. It seems to work. Maybe he should put a shroud over them so nobody can tell what exactly is going on in there...
I ve been running 80mm riser bars on my mtb for the past few years, i have the same problem long legs, normal arms, and a neck ache if i run normal bars, on ya Dak for doing whats right for you❤
Deity has been making 80s for years ... and people have been running them and I don't recall hearing any issues with durability ...
Bar height from BB would be a great fitment measurement. RAD fitment really.
We really need to stop perpetuating this myth of high bars reducing front pressure. Pressure distribution should always be handled by your bike's geometry and go through the bottom bracket. That's the exact reason why recent geometry development favors longer chainstays. Longer chainstays put more pressure on the front tire because they place the rider's overall weight, which is pushed through the bottom bracket, further towards the front in relation to overall wheelbase. If your bike has a properly balanced geometry, there should be no need whatsoever to apply more or less pressure through the bars, except for changes in motion of course. But these changes are miniscule on a properly designed bike.
So as we get ever closer to the perfect geometry, higher rise bars are a logical conclusion. They allow a rider to remain in control, with less upper body movement and allow the rider to expend a lot less energy. Just take a look at Dakotah's riding and how that bike floats under him in rough sections, while his upper body remains super calm. It's the most natural position for going down a hill in a bicycle. The only thing which held us back from achieving it so far has been flawed geometry.
Now,im not saying everyone needs to run 75mm risers, that's obviously on the extreme end for those guys with T-Rex DNA, but maybe consider trying a 40-50mm riser. It made a huge difference for me.
Also, what Dakotah is describing about not wanting to contort your neck in order to look ahead and not wanting to ride in front of the bottom bracket is EXACTLY why I made the switch to higher bars. I can't really describe how game changing this is, especially on bikes with very low inherent stack height. It allows for so much freedom of movement in your upper body and arms and takes away so much strain from your neck and upper back muscles it's really insane.
So even if we were to lose a miniscule amount of control with the higher bars, the benefits we receive from a body mechanical perspective are more than enough to make up for it and imho outweigh any negatives by a lot.
I have always gone for short chainstay bikes for the "playfulness" but now find myself having to consciously weight the front to get some grip and confidence in corners otherwise its scary floaty up front.
What they actually experienced was higher bar reduced the effective reach and pushes your legs and torso or COG back over the BB, like you're constantly in a manual position. That's why Dakotah went with longer reach.
For me it is not the amount of pressure i can generate with lower bars, but the feeling of how i am applying it. i have short legs and long arms. i would love to try my bike one size larger with higher bars. but on my bike i tried higher bars and it doesn't work, not even in steep stuff.
Really not that high
Dakotah "Chopper" Norton ⛳
back in 2008 the same thing started in bmx. we went from tiny little handlebars to "perfect 10". it will happen in mtb and btw: chris moeller needs to hook up dak with custom s&m handlebars!!!( edit says: i really like the optics btw
coolest Bar that i have seen in a while
finally! bar height from the ground is a big thing no-one talks about!
Been riding high risers for years, most friends say that It looks ridicolous. But for me they work better and give me more confidence. Form follows function. I would ride the most ugly bike if it was working perfectly for me. Function to me is all that matters.
I ran Cowan hi rise 2006 to 2010 then Dartmoor hi rise from 2012 to today. 3 inch and 3 and a half inch respectively.
Loved the rise but dirt jump bars don't have enough back sweep.
Take the steepest chutes with ease probably lose some front end control in the corners but saved my life getting thrown out the front door hundreds of times. I have a high ape index but not much power so the extra leverage for lifting the front is also a bonus.
Also better for table tops as the top tube is effectively lower.
As far as aesthetics go it's more BMX and less road bike which is a win for me.
I’ve definitely hit my chin bar on a roller on my handlebars. I glad to hear a pro even does it.
The curv of the bar because of the rise give a sweet fell on the bike and in the air ... i love my 50 rise😎
I love this, be different.. I've just got some high 80s bars and trying them tomorrow 😂😂
I have Orangutan arms and run 50mm high bars, being 6’5” on an XXL frame 🤘❤️🌈🕊️🌍
Yep I'm 6'6" and pretty even ape index and I feel so far forward on my bike, thinkin I need to check out some new bars this season
As a 6 ft 4 rider with super long legs, I can relate lol.
I'm 6' with 35.5' inseam. Currently have 40mm and 50mm rise bars. About to put Spank Spoon 75mm cut to 760mm (thus roughly 70mm) to see how it feels.
*Ollie Lowthorpe has 50mm of spacers + 50mm bars combined with 664mm stack.
Dude is flying. Might be something to that raised reversed stem thing.
Been running 60mm rise for years I have tRex arms I used to get hand pain this fixed it for me would not go back actually thinking opf going higher.
I rember talking to him at Platteville new york was one his first races he was with his buddy riding a trek ...he won the race by 9 seconds I think
I think Dak needs some handguards with some F1 magic built in.
C'mon Mondraker 👍🏼💙
I ate the bike productors that cut the fork tube short. I've always had to change the fork, to maintain the full rise of the tube... For a decent and comfortable body position.
See Jackson and I have long arms so we are in the same riding position, and dak is getting ergonomically comfortable. Just wait he will win and everyone will go high bars
I bet he is going to get really bored of people asking him about this after a while.
BMX rules!
Looks soooooo cool like moto, DH not XC, respect you broke out of the box!!!
Everyone says with a high stack, you can’t get weight on the front wheels. That isn’t true, because you have to stiffen the rear shock to get proper sag. And, you’ll probably have to soften the fork for the same reason.
Sam Hill started the trend of wide bars.
Now we have Dakota with tall bars.
Downhill is about a lot of preferences and MAYBE the meta isnt for you...
Almost nobody ride Flat Pedals these days... Dont know if Brendan Fairclough or Conor Fearon are still racing World Cups, or Brook Macdonald still on flats...
Assuming that all then are racing we get 3 flat pedal riders?
Years ago: Sam Hill, Chris Kovarik and Nathan Rennie was probally the biggest names riding flat pedals
Fearon still rides flats
I ride a perfect 10 bar vom S&M for like 15 years or so. Why dont you try one of these...
Dakotah Norton looks like Jon Snow👌👌
Dakota could be a comedian imo
I'm pretty sure my first mtb in 1986 had bars just like that.. I'm pretty sure they all did back then. 😂
Has anyone addressed why Mondy don’t make a taller head tube and split the difference?
Forget that. I just noticed that he would still need a bigger drop crown on the fork.
@@ardor4247 also longer head tubes make it harder for shorter riders to size up, if they wanted to. Easier for a taller rider to use spacers or a high rise bar. I'm tall, so I'm not much of a fan of multiple spacers and a 38mm bar, but understand there's a compromise. It's been the other way over the years, when stack on frames used to be too high, and getting bars low enough was a problem! For the prototype frames MFR are on, they are the same size frame as they are work in progress - the idea is to be able to fine tune all elements to the racers. Things will change, as the riders work with the engineers. It's all interesting stuff!
@@DoddyMTBtech I get all of that mate, but we’re talking about prototype bikes for a factory rider, who looks set to take the top step of a podium in 2024. Wouldn’t it be best to make him the best version possible?
@@ardor4247 I get where you are coming from, but it's not quite that simple. I'm sure the frames will change (and might even be as I write this) but it's pointless just making a frame with a different stack on when other things are being figured out still. He's still experimenting with various things - until they are in a position to alter frames again they will be on these. It also costs a lot of money to get prototypes done, so it needs to be worthwhile. I'm sure Dak himself would answer more specifically, I don't want to put words in his mouth - just responding from my observations and chats with mechanics etc.
I find it so strange that roadies spend so much time and money on bike fit, yet it rarely gets talked about in MTB.
I say just go full moto. All these years MTB just slowly morph towards dirt bike geometry, 63 head angle, 0MM stem, high stack etc, you can clearly see.
On the road you are in a static position for extremely long periods of time (more or less, yeah you stand now and then and switch from tops/hoods/drops/aero hoods) whereas MTB, especially DH, is extremely dynamic.
Maybe it depends on what type of mtb rider you are. Because the people I ride with and I spend a lot of time talking about and adjusting geometry and riding position. More than anything to be honest. That and suspension set up which bleeds into geometry
They are there now full motor. Same head tube angles 62.5 degrees, mullet stance now. Just cut to the chase and and get there already.
Dak Astack!!!
Fellow T-Rex here, 40mm minimum rise and 465mm-475mm reach feels best. I always seem to be in between M & L on most frames, so annoying...
Bring back bmx bars
Why not use a custom stem to achieve the stack he wants? That way he doesn’t have to worry about the bars being weak.
He briefly mentioned issues with range of motion -- with less rise on the bars and more stack height via the frame / stem he was hitting his face / helmet on the bars when getting low.
He really should ask his fork sponsor to make him a custom top crown with an angled and elevated direct mount mounting point to match his preferences. Just needs about 2-3cm of extra material on top of the usual mounting point and he could go back to using 40-50mm bars. Basically built in stem spacers, but angled in a way that the resulting mounting surface is at a 90 degree angle to the ground when mounted on his bike. That way the loss of reach is kept in check as would be the case with higher rise bars. And being able to use lower rise bars as a result would provide another benefit in that angling the bars backwards doesn't result in such a big impact on reach as well as not offsetting the steering axis as much.
If you go higher, steering axis goes back, to keep the same steering offset grip points must go back. Doesn't matter where the rise come from, reach will be reduced.
Desirable look? Could you imagine somebody giving you shit over that?😂 by the way once again...MOTO.
Way cooler looking than any MTB😅
I ran Renthal bars on my Foes back in 97. LOL actual ATV bars on my downhill race ride. I didn't suck at racing but I loved the personal challenge and the adrenaline of riding crazy stuff. Plattekill was where we found the limits. We made the california pro riders cry when sport class riders like me dropped off a 12 foot drop in a race course with them all standing around during practice
Just pause for a second have a look at this bike with a dual crown and what they are calling high rise handlebars and what this set up is exactly the same as ?🤔
Now add a cross brace , have any penny’s dropped yet hmmm 🤔
It’s the exact same set up motos have been using for 50 years 😱 and makes perfect sense !!
I actually wonder why MTBs have gone so low and wide compared to motos considering the similarities & also the fact that motos are heavier nd more powerful ???
As a moto mechnic by trade back in the 80s-90s i see so many things being introduced into MTB that is suposidly ground breaking but is actually very old tech !!
Put a cross brace & handlebar pad and you have moto or BMX 😎
I'm just short
Bikes have gotten silly long, so more people are waking up to getting big sweep bars.
The questions for Dakota seem odd. I mean just look at Supercross guys... are you kidding me? What's the big effing deal about running Riser bars I mean these guys that think they know everything about mountain biking really show their lack of knowledge with regard to physics
Slid his front wheel out in the finals today. Wasnt the bar at all... haha
I rate you will get better ride from a larger clamp on the top triple clamp , as you now have more bar material, so a sweet (bar) leverage to clamp ratio will be the money.
" give me a large enough lever I'll move the world "
Flat bars feel like shit.
The general principle that I'm convinced of -- the ideal for any given person is more likely to be something that hasn't been tried than whatever is accepted as "normal"