The HP-12C
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- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
- RPN, Storage, Programming? This thing is way more than just a financial calculator.
Old calculators are cool to see what they got right and how they have been improved upon. But the HP-12C was done right out of the gate. What more could you want? I don't think it could get am more complex without giving up it's perfect small size.
If I can get my hands on a 15C or 16C I may do a follow up video on those. As much as I love the 12C it would be nice to have a more generally useful feature set.
Want a 12C and want to help support the channel? Here are some affiliate links to find one:
Amazon: amzn.to/2TKl8ul
eBay: ebay.to/2M5Fwnh
And if you want a 15C here are some options:
Amazon New 15C clone: amzn.to/2FyRh46
eBay: ebay.to/2CjGBmZ
Playlists of more stuff like this:
Calculators: • Calculators
Portables: • Portables
1980s: • 1980s
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This is the first time anyone has explained RPN in a way that I can actually understand. Thanks!
That's what I was hoping for with my more in-depth look!
Same
Having had experience with "printing" calculators with the "+=" keys, the concept made a little bit of sense already; you just had it make just a little more sense even more so!
You understood any of that? Jesus you must have an IQ of 5000
You should consider doing more videos explaining computing concepts like that, you're good at it @@TechTangents
You know i've always known calculators are computers, but i never thought about that there are registers and memory and assembly going on behind the scenes. after spending the last year hacking games and learning x86 assembly it's pretty nuts they were able to make these things even if it was just simple stuff.
Oh, I remember using a HP 50g in the college. It has algebraic mode on by default but I was interested in RPN and found it easier to do calculations. And Tetris was great of course.
Very nice overview. I used to work for an HP reseller from 79-87, both calculators and the computers.
We were also a reseller and servicing center for Canon calculators and computers.
I still have my 16C from 1984. I think I'm on my 4th set of batteries.
What surprised me is that mine, like the image you used, lost its badge a long time ago. Even though it is beat up it works great.
I installed a 15C emulator on my iPhone and it is my go to calculator.
I'll mention a couple things here about the Patreon thing, I've been on Patreon ( www.patreon.com/AkBKukU ) for nearly a year now and really haven't promoted it here. I just didn't really feel comfortable mentioning it because it felt like I was just asking for money. So I just linked to it in the description and later a popup at the end of the video. Well I recently wanted to see how effective that was and ran a poll: czcams.com/channels/erEIdrEW-IqwvlH8lTQUJQ.htmlcommunity?lb=UgyFFrdu1G7-vfHu1Pd4AaABCQ it turns out the vast majority of people didn't see either of those. So I'm going to start directly mentioning it in the videos just so it's out there and people know about it.
Now about the recent Patreon controversy. Free speech is obviously important. But as someone who is producing content for CZcams, it feels hypocritical to say "I won't use Patreon because of censorship" when CZcams is SO MUCH WORSE. 100% of what I post on CZcams is acceptable on Patreon. So what I do is in no way restricted by the recent changes.
However, I understand that you also get to make your own choices and may rather not indirectly fund a company that does not align with your own values. I have also had a direct Paypal donation ( www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=8SFF6UP3ZPH28 ) option on the about page for my channel for nearly as long as Patreon. So if you prefer that, there is that option as well.
Thank you very much for making this video! I am currently in the process of learning assembly so this helped me out quite a bit. I've never thought about calculators being actual computers that need to be programmed but now this seems so obvious... I gotta say there is something special about your videos that no other CZcams content creator has. You are a great teacher and you combine lots of things that I like in one package
Oh, by the way, HP also made the HP-12C Platinum back in 2004. It uses a SunPlus (or GeneralPlus) 6502-based non-reprogrammable microcontroller (underneath an epoxy blob likely), and has 399 slots for commands instead of just 99. Oh, and there's an algebraic input mode too.
As a programmer I owned a HP-16C (along with several other models like the HP-41 and HP-48). I still don't understand why the TI (Texas Instruments) calculators had superior market share. RPN is easy to learn and much easier to use once you do learn how it works. I can barely do basic arithmetic on a TI style calculator given its cumbersome UI.
I have some really bad memories of this calculator because of the financial classes i was obligated to have in my university.
But it's a really good calculator, i also have a hp 10s wich survived somany rains, waterfloods, and has a special place in my shelf...
The time value of money functions is very handy on the 12C--everyone gets a loan on something at some point, and most calculators don't have any easy way to calculate such things. The biggest advantage of RPN comes up when you're doing complicated calculations that would require many parentheses in algebraic notation. With RPN, you never have to worry about entering parentheses and whether you closed all of them at the right point.
My dad had a 12C when I was growing up. I remember playing around with it as a kid.
With obviously not the least clue what you were doing I must guess...
My daily use calculator is an HP-41CX and I also use an emulator of that same calculator on my phone. It's likely the most advanced non-graphing calculator ever made. I also have my dad's old HP 25C. Had to hack a battery pack for it, but it still works fine. One thing you didn't mention is the buttons. I don't know who came up with the button design that HP calculators use, but no other brand ever got even close to how those feel. They just scream professional quality.
There are many Voyager series calculator emulators available for PC Mac and Android. If you want a physical calculator Swiss Micros has put out a series of calculators that use the original Voyager ROMs. There's even an HP-42 emulator based on the Free42 calculator program.
My 2 12Cs are Brazil made, but my 11C and 15C are USA made. I do love these calculators, and I am very lucky that I have a physical manual for each model. the power of these calculators was amazing, but I also love my 48SX, 48GX, 48G, and 50G. the manuals that HP put out were so well crafted that you feel you were given a leatherbound first edition of your favorite book.
I am not a financial calculator type user, but the 12C mortgage calculations are super easy to use and useful.
you have buttons for Number of payments (or a 12x if you are converting years to months), interest (or a 12/ if you are using the APR), Present Value, Payment, and Future Value.
you only have to type a number, and select the key it is associated with to store it in that variable. do this for all but one key
then without hitting a number on the numberpad, just select the key you did not provide a value for and it will solve for that value.
I have an early 16C made in USA and a late 15C made in Brazil. The 15C is clearly more worn out and banged up, so it's hard to tell how much of the difference is wear due to more usage and less careful previous owners and how much is having a lower quality control at the factory. Besides scratches and unevenness of the surface beneath the paint, the keyboard rattles a lot on the brazilian 15C, while the american 16C and the 15C CE made in the Philippines have absolutely zero rattle when you shake them.
The CE keyboard is pretty nice overall, very tactile and pleasant to use. The material of the buttons and the paint look a bit cheaper though, and the f and g buttons aren't as tight as the older ones and will wobble if you put your finger on them and move them around without pushing it enough to register a keypress. In my opinion, the perfect combination would be the display of the old ones, the keycap plastic and paint of the old ones and the crisper, more tactile feel of the new keys. One thing that I love about the CE is the speed, that thing is *fast* compared to the old ones.
On my first day at HP, I was asked to select a calculator. I took the 16C which I still have and use to today. Over the decades, I have had 3 graphing calculators and a 41c that have all died, but the little 16C keeps ticking.
The HP-15c could handle matrix and complex numbers but it was the I register that put programming it on another level than the 12c. It alowwed indirect addressing of program lines and memory as well as storing the loop counter. For exampe, instead of accumulating results in a single memory with Sto + n like the video showed you can test each result and have the program choose which memory to add it to with Sto + i.
*_UNEXPECTED CONSEQUENCES_*
na na UNFORESEEN CONSEQUENCES .. :-)
I love mine, it's always sitting on my desk - the funnies thing is when someone comes by, unfamiliar with it, and picks it up to try to do math - I love watching them try to figure it out.
Got mine today, built in 1996.
The one on your right was made in Brazil in 1996. Poped mine open & it runs on a singal IC, not a black blob one thankfuly. The one on your left is USA week 31 of 1984
My dad still has his statistical analysis/business and finance HP calculator he purchased for college in the late 80s. I used it in HS/college in the 2010s and gave it back to him when done. We still had the pleather case that came with it. Still kicking to this day. Wouldn't trade it for a TI anything (unless it was graphing and came free). I can't remember the model. Worked great.
Yeah, i can confirm, the Brazilian ones have a cheaper feeling. Some guys wich i know get them from the Us or other countries. They say that the national ones don't last as long.
Usually hp saves on products when producing them here.
I remember being sad because my hp mini didn't came with the same american battery and the crystal video decoder and a slow 250gb drive instead of the faster one.
Laptops like the dv lineup are actually a trap in here. They save up in fans and use the same thermal managments as it would be in the USA. So it wont speed up the fan as much as it could, and by having a way worse fan it heats up pretty badly. Actually even the heatpipes should be bigger for our climate, but they keep the original ones and even save up in the fans, in the chasis, and case.
Yeah it's kinda sad.
In trying to get into over locking and need a calculator. I suddenly want a old desk calculator and I don't know why! Watching your channel has got me into old hardware thanks Mr.
Good news everyone: the 15C is back with the collector's edition, it's even cheaper than most 15C specimens in good condition. It also supports a few neat features like 15.2 mode with more memory and 16 mode.
My father still uses his 15C. Love to play with it sometimes when I'm getting the chance. Lovely little calculator with more functionality than you expect from such an old device... Oh, and I adore the keypad...
This calculator is still available on Amazon for $30ish and this video made me order one so i can experiment with custom firmware.
I don't even care about calculators, but when I see that a new AkBKukU video is out, I will never regret clicking on it. Keep up the good work!
Very nice. I hadn't the foggiest idea that the 12c is so cool. My main calculator these days is a HP-50g. :) RPN is so handy if you're familiar with it. It also helps to learn it if your first calculator is RPN and you don't have access to any algebraic calculators, that's a good incentive.
Little known fact but HP isn't the only company that made RPN calculators. There were a number of other RPN calculators made in the 1097s-1980s. Among them, the National Semiconductor Mathematician. No I didn't have one. I had a clone of one. :) It was an unlicensed clone AFAIK, made in my country (in the East European bloc) but functionally identical - even the case was almost identical but it didn't have the NS name on it. It failed eventually because the red LED display kept losing segments until it wasn't legible anymore, but was very useful while it lasted and had me learning RPN the hard way. :)
1097s? You mean 1970s. :-)
Just got one of these at goodwill for only $1.99 and it’s flawless!
My father used to have the bigger version of this (48G i think)
It is able to make graphs and much more programming. I remember to found a Tetris game on it when I was a kid. But I never understand how to do simple operations on it until today
Excellent! I love RPN calculators, I was lucky enough to find a HP 33s at a op-shop/thrift store for a whole $5. It's the black sheep of the HP RPN world for it's odd design, but it doesn't bother me at all and I think it has a nice charm to it.
This sort of reminds me of the old Tandy Pocket PCs. Very cool, man!
8:00 that joke gets funnier when you consider the HP-16C. 😂
I used to have an 11C in my early college years. I replaced it with a 48SX which was a marvel at the time. I should've kept the 11C, because a couple of years later my 48SX was stolen and now I miss both. In any case, I remember writing small useful programs for the 11C which has the same programming interface as the 12C.
Have you seen the new 15C Collector's Edition? It's just like the original 15C, but much, much faster.
Back then I never understood how RPN works. That's a really good explanation. :)
I think my dad had a 33E which unfortunately broke.
Genuinely fantastic intro to the 12C, came in knowing practically nothing about them, now if I come across one I'll know how to decrypt alien languages with it! Very, very cool calculator, never knew those had so many features.
What a coinsidance, I was just watching a load of computerfile videos about rpn and particularly postscript.
I just got a 2nd hand 12C myself because I love RPN, financial stuff is extra fluff.
Kinda sad that you mentioned there's two variants, as I checked mine and it says BRAZIL on the back :( it still feels pretty good though.
feels like i should need a note book on hand to keep track what is in the x or y registires
In all honesty, Goodwill isn't a bad spot to look for these. Lots of luck there for cheap 12cs.
Look for information on the Swissmicros updated Voyager clones for modern takes on this format.
Interesting - the one I have is a Brazil model, and I always thought it felt well-made and satisfying to use. I've never seen an american-made one though. I'll have to keep an eye out and see if I can get my hands on a better one.
That was a great coding walkthrough. More Assembly!
Another interesting calculator is the HP 28s advanced scientific calculator witch I have but is suck at the self test screen (maybe I can fix it)... It has all these features and more, you should check it out if you can find one.
@4:30 shouldn't it be ADD AX, CX tho?
Oops, copy paste error. You are correct.
great you just made me go out and buy a 11c
I loved my HP 48sx and RPN. Until the keypad stopped working well ☹️. Once you get used to it, RPN is way faster.
I'm surprised it took this long to reach RPN. I personally prefer the "traditional" calculator form factor, and I like being able to see the entire stack (or at least more than 1). Having 4 registers is nice, too. Not a huge fan of the Voyager series. I use a Prime and I'm looking to get a 48 at some point.
While watching you write out that program, I suddenly felt like having some Campbell's soup. God knows why!
Had some Campbell's soup (and added couscous just because) about a half hour before watching the video, so subliminal suggestion wasn't the culprit for me...
I would have needed this some years ago, damn i wish id know how to use these so as to help stuff since RPN didn´t make sense until now.
I had a Toshiba RPN calcularor back in the day.
My senior EE has the 15C and 16C he uses all the time
You aren't kidding about battery life. I've had LCD calculator batteries last over a decade.
Well, I almost think I understood the explanation, though I felt pretty thick too bc how many replays of bits of the program section it took... Never done any programming whatsoever or anything much math/logic related, but I'm afraid that's not enough of an excuse... At least I kind of got it, thank you.
Omg, all my favorite things in one video: HP voyagers and Futurama! You have made my day!
I can call myself lucky to own a 15C, also using it after all these years. What you can do with it is still amazing (like integrals, matrix operations...). Have a look at SwissMicros for a nice modern replica, they might even send you a demo unit :) www.swissmicros.com/models.php
"AMORT ! AMORT ! Ahh, I amorted too much"
Tinkering with calculators is cool.
I have horrible memories in this calculator from when my dad would help me with my homework.
I feel it
Have you seen the re-implementations of some of the HP calculators from swissmicros.com? They emulate the NUT processor, like the newer 12C and have what looks like a great screen (especially the DM42). They are a little expensive, but seem like something that you would be interested in. EEVBlog has a video on the DM42 if you want to check that out.
EEVBlog Video: czcams.com/video/Ong91Ji3iDk/video.html
Oh yeah, I would love to get my hands on any of their calculators! They seem fantastic.
It looks like they are open to custom development as well. I know I would sink some time into that on one of those.
You might try for the cheaper clones of the voyager series calculators and the HP41 series by SwissMicros which do similar emulation of the original firmware as the current ARM based HP12C productions. Which may also explain the lack of optional firmware for the current 12C since they already have clones which are readily available. They are around $120 each though.
You can also flash the hp 30b (also rpn) with different community firmware too to make it a programmable scientific calculator. It'd be the cheapest option at $45 for the calculator though the cable and overlay may cost more
I never saw a calculator that uses RPN to calculate. I didn't know that RPN calculators existed.
Very interesting video. Love these Voyager series machines. Have you tried the Swiss Micros remakes?
I own one. And a 12CP. The Platinum (which cost me 5 times as) is a piece of junk. The 12C (Malaysian) is sensual to the touch.
Where did you get the Planet Express ship?
It's one of the original run of toys from when the show first aired. So probably Target or some big store. Not the same story today.
There was recently a subscription loot-box model made, I have that one as well but it isn't as good.
Does anyone know what the "j' in cfj stands for???? I know what is does I just want to know what the 'j" word is. Like CFo stands for "Cash Flow Original" what does J stand for as I know cfj is Cash Flow something.... please help. thanks in advance.
I remeber yelling to my mom the calculator wasn't working :D haha
It is pretty confusing to demonstrate the notation on x86 assembly, where you put the operator first, then the operands.
Anyone know how to find Pi on the HP 12c Calculator, thanks so much.
I really enjoy your videos! I wanted to ask, in your opinion, which calculator was better, the 11C, the 15C, or the 16C?
If you're into math, physics and engineering, probably the 15C is the way to go, if you're in business, sales, finance, accounting, the 12C makes more sense*. The 16C is an interesting piece of history, but I don't think it's super useful to lots of people as it's mostly focused on low level integer math with adjustable word size... Sure, there's a floating point mode, but there's not much you can do with it.
For most people, the usability of those order models may be a hard pill to swallow. I love the form factor and enjoy using and programming both my 15C and my 41CV on a daily basis, but when I must solve more complex problems in a hurry, I still find a lot quicker and less error prone to solve it on an 50g. Bigger display, deeper stack, a language that's easier to both write and read. I can still do it with the 41 or the 15, but it usually requires me to sit down, grab a pencil and paper and plan ahead of entering the programming mode.
Recently we got a new model, the 15C CE, much faster, with a somewhat buggy hidden mode that allows you to access more memory and an 16C mode as well. Luckily there are some community fixes already and at least one store is selling the calculators with the bugs already patched, even before HP issued an official patch.
There's also the SwissMicros models and also a mod kit for "full nut" 41 that replace the CPU board with a modern one, much faster and loaded with cool features, I believe it's called the 41CL. But also, there are quite a few emulators and simulators to try.
* it doesn't mean you can't use an 15C for that, it's just that TVM is a rather long program to type into your 15C, at a hundred something instructions. The code is on the 15C Advanced Functions Handbook IIRC.
“Nobody doesn’t like molten boron!"
I use Excel 2003 for all my finances and it's been treating me right. This calculator is cool but it's hilariously outdated at this point.
Mark M nah, man, Office 2003 is hilariously outdated.
@@matthewkriebel7342 I've been using it for 17 years and it still runs fine on my laptop. I will be upgrading to the newest Office version whenever I get a new laptop.
You cannot use any Excel version at Exams like CFA. There you're forced either to use a version of the HP 12c or the TI BA II Plus (Professional)! 😍
By the way how you input interest is different. On the "outdated" calculator you don't have to input 10% (but 10) and the calculator will do the rest. Excel drive me crazy before I realized it needs 10% (instead of 10)! 😱
I want this calculator
I tried to learn RPN but whew it gets too hard for me.
SwissMicros makes apparently pretty accurate and faithful reproductions of all the Voyager calculators (and more)
Useful for non-collectors, since the originals have a cult following and sell for top dollar on eBay... usually even more than they cost new in the 80s, and often pretty badly damaged :(
HP also made the HP-71B - a neat pocket BASIC computer in the same Voyager form factor, same satisfying clicky keys, but not RPN... Same deal though: they have *even more* of a cult following and are kinda rare
I am aware of both of those. I would absolutely love to get that computer. I found out it existed when looking through an 80s HP brochure I got with my HP-86. If it is build as well as the Voyager series it would be a dream to use!
@@TechTangents I know someone who has one: It is 100% built as well as the Voyagers!
I seriously hope to find one locally some day, in a thrift shop (doubtful) or garage sale. They go for *absurd* amounts on eBay lately, as well as the card readers and HPIL modules :c
Someone made a custom module for them with more RAM and all the ROMs (FRAM71), but I'm not sure if he sells them anymore, and it's sadly not open source.
Yes - I managed to follow your programs on mine (USA 2207A00875) - not cheap in a 2ndhand shop, but a classic to admire. Thanks for a great fun tutorial.
Accumulator - not Register A.
How do you store multiple inputs (greater than 2) and use those inputs in a program?
The Voyager series has a 4 level stack, but you can still create programs that take more inputs than that by storing the arguments directly to memory as well. I'm not terribly familiar with the 12C,but on the 15C you have direct access to something like 25 registers and indirect access to all the internal memory. The newer models like the 28 and 48 have a much deeper stack, you can essentially push as much stuff onto the stack as you like, as long as there's enough memory. You can easily find the manuals for those calculators online if you'd like to learn more about them. HP's documentation is top notch, I could spend hours reminiscing about how many times my 48 helped me solving hard problems with ease just from stuff I learned from casual reading of the manual.
What did you use for the ASM demo on that computer at the start?
By that I mean what programs
The editor was ed, the debugger was d86 which is included with the a86 assembler package.
Btw will you do a teardown of the brazilian one?
Does 12C have Z and T registers?
Yes, but they aren't directly editable as far as I know.
@@TechTangents What happens if you type: 2 enter 3 enter 4 enter 5 multiply multiply multiply?
@@watchmakerful 120
@@eformance Yes, it has at least 4 stack registers.
@@watchmakerful I had to wait to check, that does run into Z and T! That is awesome! This calculator is just too good. That does explain some odd behavior I was seeming to get when check if the Y register had changed with some operations.
I hav one of them
did your 12c's come with the leather case?
Unfortunately they did not. It would have been nice to get that. They would probably have been in better shape as well.
@@TechTangents my mom has a 12c she brought in 81, and still has the case.
How about a 16C?
The thing about RPN is that, you don't need any knowledge about lexing and operator priority handling to code an interpreter. Maybe that's just the reason why most esolangs seems to be stack based and some what RPN based.
Also, I think it's definitely more useful to have a stack than addressable registers, because then you can just do complex calculations without using a lot of loading and storing commands to slow down the input. (Though they might need to consider swapping that enter key with a push key and a pop key.)
5:10 You got Jenny's number wrong.
Woops, there were a bunch of shots I had keep doing retakes on because reading the script in time with performing the actions was difficult. I guess I missed that one.
@@TechTangents Is that why she never called you back?
Granted, I was a preschooler at the time that song came out, but I noticed that as well :)
He's going to have to get her number off the wall again.
I got a 15C without you bursting my bubble.
I wish i have these :(
So this is the linux version of a calculator.. ¿rigth?.... awesome... but complicated...
I bought mine for 25¢ at yard sale😊
Office max still sells it
Nowadays you can buy a hp 15c clone from www.swissmicros.com running the original hp firmware on an ARM driven simulator. Cool stuff.
Brah, did you just make a 23 minute video on a calculator :D
0:45 guilty as sin 🙋♂️
Hi
Akbkuku.... you're such a nerd. Lol
Don't turn it on, take it apaaaart? :'(
hello
This video made very little sense to me. :(
from ltt video
Late
What a long way to explain a simple idea!
Second