Have the Epic and Ikon Passes RUINED Skiing? An Honest Look
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- čas přidán 25. 05. 2024
- Epic and Ikon have revolutionized the way that winter sports enthusiasts can access the mountains, but they've made serious headlines over the past few years for what many have characterized as “ruining” the ski industry.
So have the Epic and Ikon Pass products really ruined skiing, and if they have, what can you do about it? Let’s take a look.
Article version of this video: www.peakrankings.com/content/...
0:00 Intro
0:43 What Are Epic and Ikon?
1:36 How These Passes Came to Dominate the Ski World
3:03 Lift Ticket and Season Pass Cost Impacts
6:04 Crowding Impacts
9:36 Large-Scale Capital Investments
11:21 Impacts to Local Businesses
12:33 Corporatization of Destination Ski Resorts
13:20 Rise of Independent Ski Mountains
15:52 Final Thoughts
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Lift-serve skiing in Colorado is Disney World now. Sit in traffic on I-70, going and coming for hours. Stand in line waiting to get on a lift. Crowded slopes full of clowns. Overcrowded restaurants with crap food and drink. It's such a soul crushing and demoralizing experience now.
I used to live in Summit county, and I hear you! I just priced a vacation by myself to go back and ski for 2 days, with everything included, that's the rental car, the flight, the hotel room, the ski lift tickets and everything! I was looking at 3200. And that's when I realized, I probably actually budgeted too low considering I never budgeted for parking and such.
The level of skiing is so bad now too because of these passes. Just dangerous to be around the number of clueless skiers in mtns now.
I spotted a sticker on a lift tower of a small area that read: "IKON'T wait for you to leave"
This is an OUTSTANDINGLY balanced view of the impact of corporate-ization of the ski industry... as with all all pleasurable pursuits, the money comes in and changes everything... this is a great look at the positives as well as the negatives and I think the conclusion is accurate... either take advantage and exploit this leverage or stay local and intensify your experience
Shoutout to Wolf Creek, where the price is the same at the window the morning of as it was online in September
Kudos to Wolf Creek. Green chile burger all day long. Just a nice laid back vibe. Wonderful family memories there with many more to come.
Wolf creek sucks, went there Saturday, go somewhere else..
@@triggerhippy7511Agreed. The less people there the better for me and my friends and family.
don’t go to wolf creek it sucks. same with brighton. don’t ever go. ever.
As someone who rides thirty to fifty different resorts a year, I love wolf creek and the whole Pagosa springs vibe
It created a crowding problem, things are now way too corporate but the biggest thing is that it is killing the sport. Casual people cannot go, those who aren't already into it aren't spending thousands on passes in July or even September. Those people who maybe want a ski a few days a year or try it take one look at the stupid prices and are out. Back in the old days of deals and discounts people could take their family skiing for the day or the weekend without a commitment or breaking the bank. Ask someone without a pass to join you for a ski weekend and for a family of 4 just lift tickets are $1400 that's before $30 chicken tenders, $15 beers, paid parking, and god forbid if you need ski school or rentals. No normal people can afford that and they have made that the reality. I see an activity that while always expensive was far more accessible 40 years ago than it is today and that is the opposite of progress.
As usual the corporations look at the short term and ignore the long term.
The Epic and Ikon pass will give them lots of money the coming 20 to 30 years, but after that the amount of people that are willing to ski will start to drop. Because as you said, casual skiers are not going anymore and that means their children will not learn to ski and the passes are too expensive to let people try it out.
I absolutely feel the traffic point you had. Several times I have driven 3+ hours to get to Stevens pass just to not get parking and have to go home. It’s awful…
Imagine, having a season beach sticker only to find by 8am the lot is full and you have to return home. It’s happening everywhere with most things. The early bird gets the turns! Life is a beach?
The problem is that hella ppl be not even skiing but instead do a few runs and spend the rest of the day drinking in the village
That happened to us the 2nd year that vail operated Stevens some years back. It was also the last weekend we ever went up there and the 2nd-to-last time overall. Stevens was our mountain for years. We ride elsewhere nowadays. It's sad AF.
That is a bummer... leave super early get a parking spot might have to hang out in your car for an hour
@@marcusfieldfield4069 that’s about what I do now every time I go
Maybe you can ski a bit cheaper if you ski often, but the more you look into this the more you notice how bad it is. I think the easiest way to see the difference (that wasn’t mentioned in the video) is with resort websites. They are all basically cut and paste one from the next. All uniqueness has been destroyed at these resorts. The charm of skiing is getting super commercialized. At this point a lot of us have no option but to buy a pass… but I’ll never admit to this transition being a net positive. Yea ski a little cheaper but at what cost? Crazy lines, no charm, school lunch quality food, payed parking everywhere, and now reservations are getting really bad and just strait up annoying. They’ve taken everything 😭😭😭
I get what you’re saying but managing separate websites is just not efficient. I do wish the resorts themselves kept their character. Unfortunately vail will be pushing standardization more to the east coast resorts too. Linked a presentation vail did in another comment.
Mate I could not care less if the websites are carbon copies. In fact it makes it easier to browse several mountains.
I don’t care about websites mate. I care about my skiing experience. I think u missed the point. The website of these resorts are great examples of how the mega resorts are ruining unique interesting destinations. They used to be all different. Now they are all copy paste
What are you talking about when you say charm?
Those half naked ski bunny’s you see in all the old ski commercials
As a longtime Epic Tahoe skier (Kirkwood was home,) I can tell you they've ruined Tahoe. This year, I bought the Cali Pass, which is only for smaller mountains south of the lake (namely, Bear Valley, Dodge Ridge, and China Peak.) So far, I'm having a lot more fun and dealing with a lot less gaper madness. At Bear, even on weekends, I can lap chairs nonstop with virtually no wait times, parking is (relevantly) easy, and I don't feel like I'm supporting an evil corporation that treats its employees and its customers like disposable garbage.
Tahoe was paradise in the 90s early 2ks..the fact they changed Squaw Valley's long standing name is an absolute Fn disgrace..don't get me started
Ikon has not done any good in the Cottonwood Canyons, in Utah. Ski reservation's, parking reservation's, pricey parking. Deer Valley holiday lift tickets cost $269, Park City Mountain $289 for a daily ride. It is getting out of hand.
Ssshhhhhh....don't ruin it it
How’s the skiing in these spots?
Oh so by “ruined” you mean you want less people to enjoy the resorts and get in the sport? Cool bro.
My family owned property in Breckenridge for over 40 years, and saw multiple changes of ownership of the mountain and several boom and bust cycles over the years. The only thing worse than being part of Vail, was not being part of Vail and the Epic pass.
As a business person I have wondered about the financials behind the Epic pass, as in the 90's when I was living in Europe I did an analysis of worldwide season pass pricing, and the average costs was around 16 full day tickers. The two passes hear are now down to 6-8 days for break even.
One day lift tickets used to be a lot cheaper. Now they are far inflated. That's the only reason the pass "looks" like a good value. Vail used to be like $40/day 30 years ago. Now it's $250/day far outpacing inflation. Resorts have basically forced us to buy a pass if a person plans on skiing even just 3 days. That doesn't make it a good value. It just makes single lift tickets overpriced.
@@bn9161nailed it!
I love the IndyPass. It allowed me to visit cool little towns and go to resorts I didn't even know existed. I bought a Timberline season pass last year and had the most fun I've ever had snowboarding as it is part of the PowderAlliance and gave me 3 free days at other Alliance resorts which tend to be smaller, independent resorts. I got the Mt Shasta season pass this year which is also part of PowderAlliance with the same perks. Don't sleep on Indy and Powder Alliance.
I have a powder alliance pass- fusion w/ mt hood Skibowl and timberline combined. I've gone to a couple of places on the fusion pass (sierra-at-tahoe and bogus basin) and both were super fun and super non commercialized. Super fun experience at both.
I live my Indy pass - I just wish a couple more of my local hills were on it.
Timberline is a last stand of independent resort operators. Jeff is clearly standing strong against this tide I appreciate his commitment to maintaining family owned and operated skiing. Timberline is a unique and unreplaceable landmark that is the original notion of skiing in the USA.
I'm in N.Idaho and my son recently went to a mountain, which has gotten us into the idea .... I haven't been boarding in over 20 years. I live near a mountain that is still fairly affordable, but noticed references to Powder Alliance when looking up some of the other local mountains that are nearby. If I survive this Thursday we may have to look into getting him a season pass for next year and also look into what all this powder alliance thing is... the 3 main mountains nearest to me that we'd likely go to are Lookout Pass, Silver Mt. , and Schweitzer Mt. , but there is also Mt. Spokane and a couple others that aren't too far away.... cheers
I love Timberline!!!
This is classic corporations at work. Boost revenue in the early season/summer with pass sales, then sustain it through the season with the higher day users and parking.
It’s disgusting
@@phyllipstallard1694 Yeah man, we see the impact of it with the resorts in our area of Pennsylvania
Great Vid , love the POV shots of the variety of Eastern, Western, and Canadian resorts. Very informative .
Great infomation! This is great to know as I start planning for the 2024-25 ski season.
As usual, great video, thanks. Still ski a ton, but I miss the days when I moved to Colorado in 93 when we would literally make are decision on where to ski as we were driving up to the mountains. Can no longer ski at any resorts not offered on my ICON pass.
great video just for all of the b roll of mixed resorts, great footage. so fun trying to spot every familiar run. and what was said I largely agree with as well. cheers,
ski in europe , italy / switzerland / austria . $60 per day , great charm and it so much nicer then us ski resorts. We get an air bnb for $1,500-2000 for a week in swiss alps. Much better the. usa crazy prices
Accommodation would be cheaper in both Austria and Italy
I have been skiing for 60 years and for the first time I have serious concerns about the monopolization of ski resorts. I am retired so can justify the purchase and use of one of these passes. However my children who work and have children can certainly not justify the cost of the passes as they have limited time to ski, usually on weekends which are prohibitively expensive. As a result when they try purchasing single day lift tickets they soon realize that $150 per day to ski a crowded resort is just not justified. Not to mention the cost of accommodations going through the roof I can only foresee the decline of your average to lower income person participating in this sport. Monopolization is never a good thing especially when the huge profits benefit only a few at the top of the food chain. Look at the inflation we are experiencing at this time and we hear about food chains making 30% gains in profit year over year don’t think for one minute that the ski industry is immune from the same scenario’s it is happening as we speak.
I agree. Those large corporations only look at the short term and not the long term.
In 20 to 30 years a lot less people will be wanting to ski because they never learned it from their parents.
If they don't figure this out in time and provide some sort of trial pass or affordable lesson+ticket system, they are going to lose a lot of money in the long run.
Good job researching this!
Nothing's driving me to the backcountry more than this whole resort consolidation ( mono/duo-polization?).
After this year, I'm ditching Ikon/Epic for good and if I get a pass, it'll be for something at Indy resorts.
Regardless, I'll focus my time on getting prepped for the time I enjoy most: Spring into early Summer backcountry!
How about just buy a pass to one resort?
hell. yes.
@@dandonnelly6498 yeah, choosing the resort is tough for me now as I really don't have a "home mountain" and Tahoe's generally a friggin' zoo! At some point, I'll consider that...
I live in a ski town where the major resort is owned by Alterra and I have not had a pass since 19/20. I stick to the smaller independent hill or the backcountry. My home has become ruined by the ikon pass.
@@57ttocsbummer! I grew up in Montana/WYO near small ski hills, so I can relate...
PeakRankings always does a good job of covering a topic completely and this one's tricky. I can see how Epic or Ikon are worth it for those that wanna travel and get the biggest bang for their buck, but that's just not how I roll .. usually...
Next year, I'll figure something Indy out.
Cheers!
Great breakdown of ski pass politics. Glad I was such a road warrior in the past and hit my share of good resorts when ticket prices were still double digits. Now I just ride my locally owned hills who all joined forces together under the CALI Pass.
I whip myself until Ikon pass value has doubled the $$ 25days 25days! Resort discounts ? Nooooooooooo
You mention a lot of good points in the video. I do wish hotel prices would have been covered.
Love the videos man, keep it up!
Same. You didn’t go hard enough tho. These resorts are way worse than people realize… skiers have been complaint about this for years and some how greedy big business still prevails
3rd IKON Pass, 10 resorts, 2 states, about to reach 80 Days this season!
Great analysis. Good job.
I haven't skied in years here in Colorado because of the horrible drive from Denver. It wasn't worth it to go a handful of times because the cost was so high. This year i bought a pass and committed to go a bunch of weekdays to make it worthwhile. But the drive is so bad i wont do it again next year. Not 10 times like im doing this year. When this season started i thought about buying new gear and really investing in this awesome sport. But now after this winter ive decided im done with the traffic and im giving up skiing. I would love to go A few times a year, but at $250+ per trip, i cant justify the cost. The industry has lost me forever. I also know how profitable the big corps are, so they wont miss a local day skier like me.
Good point about traffic on from Denver. I hardly imagine these days to by a season pass and drive from Denver on I-70 few dozen times to the slope.
Most ski areas are built by permit on public US Forest Service land. PUBLIC land. This situation should never have been allowed to become a haven for corporate mega mergers and price gouging that makes skiing expenses now out of reach for a huge percentage of people. The conglomerates should all be broken up. Let ski areas be independent again and locally run.
This is yet another instance where respect for money (capital) takes precedence over respect for people’s lives and what benefits our community; and the fact that it is done on PUBLIC land is just a huge slap in the face.
That actually pisses me off! Thanks for bringing that up! Because they tout that they're on the national forest so you can't smoke weed on it, but here they are making hand over fist on National Land LOL.
The point you make is something I have also thought of for years. If the ski areas are on public land, they should be pegged at what would be affordable to the average person. Not the rich or super rich it should be illegal.
The ikon pass killed weekendability at my local resort I have a seasons pass at. This is my biggest complaint... At this mountain in particular there is no good reason for a season pass. No significant discounts or parking advantages. Crowds are manageable since the mountain is big, however its not designed to get the amount of flow its receiving and the parking is reflecting that. I am glad people are able to get out here and try out some new resorts and get rad experiences, however as a season pass holder I feel a bit shortchanged.
I just paid $600 for a season pass here in Sweden. If I had purchased before Nov. 1st, it would have been $500. No parking fees. I drive up to the gondola, put on my skis and am skiing in 10 minutes. It gets busy during winter break and Easter, but nothing like the lines I’m seeing in the US. A day pass is $60. Europe, baby… I used to work as a musician in Aspen, Breckenridge and Vail in the early ‘90’s. Sad to see the corporate takeover of skiing.
Very imformative video- clear and understandable to a simple guy like me. Thanks!
you missed a major part of the equation. And that is that Vail Resorts buys 70%+ of real estate in every town in which they buy a resort. The point of the pass isn’t to give skiers better products. The point is to get you to travel to their towns where you spend 500+ a night that goes to their pocket.
The town of crested butte fought this tooth and nail and still lost. Now the town is just another corporate carbon copy of all the others where Vails owns all the property and property management companies.
Realistically at least 50 cents of every dollar you spend anywhere in a vail resorts town goes to Vail. Where it’s lodging, food, skiing of course, or even emergency services.
So I’ll disagree that towns have seen a net positive impact as they aren’t towns anymore. They’re just corporate theme parks.
This, this, this! They actively incentivize crowding to drive up real estate prices!
Used to live in denver. Now Chicago. Got epic local. Will ride wilmot here and there. Hit vail in early December , week after Presidents’ Day and then Tahoe April. Always go during week. Almost zero lift lines. This is the way boys and girls
Wow really? I never knew that there wouldn't be crowds during the week. Maybe its because I've been busy taking care of three kids who have school Monday-Friday. That must be a super foreign concept for you.
@@Lafue108take them jits outta school for a bit. They’ll be aight lol
@@MrCman987 I would if they didn't already use up their "non-note" sick days on actually being sick. Maybe in high school.
Yeah, but you have to live in Chicago😂
Well done very thorough
i wish more skiers realized that having public transit to mountains is FAR more important than parking lot size. we need frequent busses to resorts, ESPECIALLY ones so close to metropolitan areas! bigger and cheaper parking lots are not the solution!!
I would offer the "Why not both?" perspective, but if I had to prioritize, it would be public transit as well. Public transit to ski areas in Europe or East Asia is more common than in the US (partially due to population density, but still) and it is a game changer to not have to worry about driving home on mountain roads in the dark while tired (or post-beers). Wish more Americans would support improved public transit in general.
@@actualstarfish3449why not both? because all we have now is private transportation. lets get both that sounds great. lets reduce the amount we spend building and maintaning roads and build public transit instead :) 50/50
Agree. Lucky to live in Vancouver where a city bus takes me to Grouse, a free shuttle takes me to Seymour, a $20 shuttle takes me to Cypress, and a $40 bus takes me to Whistler. Every ski hill accessible for someone like me who doesn’t have a car.
The passes are a great value for those who ski a lot. As someone who lives up in the Colorado mountains, I really don't like it though. The corporate feel of areas like Vail, Brek, and Beaver Creek are pretty bad. Vail is like Downtown Disney. Of all the areas, Steamboat and Crested Butte still have that good feel. The last couple years I decided to support the indy resorts and bought a Loveland pass instead. I'll probably be doing the same in the future.
So true!
You apparently haven't been to Steamboat on a weekend recently, it has fully completed it's transformation into Disney as well. It happened fast there. They mostly all fly in, so fewer Coloradans. In just a year or two the mountain skis quite different because so many people snowplow everywhere. Can't blast around place to place very quickly or comfortably anymore cause it tears up the blue runs so bad.
@@danb.709 Yeah, haven't been there in the winter for a couple years. I've been taking the family there in the summer though. I do still like the town itself. It doesn't have a fake town vibe like Vail. Sucks to hear the out of towners are flying in there though and ruining the resort.
Ikon and Loveland owning local here. I think Ikon serves the Front Range best and we only need the Base pass if we want to ski the front range too. But the crowds are getting crazy at WP, Copper, etc. Its bad enough that I pay that extra $$ to have Loveland on the weekend
@@_e5598 what's bothering me is how they are starting to change things to cater to the beginners and tourists, cause that effects even the slow times. Widening runs, imposing speed limits, and changing the flow and style of the runs. Steamboat is an interesting case, they simultaneously opened a bunch of new expert terrain while thier new gondola now floods an older area with beginners that wouldn't have gone there before, effectivey making it much worse for locals that would hit the secret stashs on that side, they both giveth and they taketh away. The way the mountain skis has drastically changed too, the moguls haven't been great for a long time, now they are abysmal. The blue runs get all torn up from everyone snowplowing and get a washboard effect that just rattles the body. Going to winter park where they still have expert skiers is a delight now, unfortunately experts have been largely squeezed out of Steamboat. It's even worse (but also a little funny) when they all show up for the pow cause they gotta try it but they can barely get thier skis on when they come off. They are then frustrated and angry by run two. Many of them don't understand the need to workup to the waist deep, but they still add to the crowds and chaos.
As a Utahn who has seen what Epic & Alterra have done to my nearby Cottonwood Canyons, I fully support independent resorts now and would rather drive 2 hrs to support Beaver & Pow Mow, and even 4 hrs to Eagle Point, than deal with the crowds nearby. Indy Pass has been great over the past two years; the only thing I'd like to see is maybe 3 or 4 days at each resort rather than just two!
What has Epic done to Cottonwood Canyons? None of those 4 resorts are on Epic.
All 4 of the cottonwood resorts are on the ikon pass. I don't know if it's Epic/Ikon that's the cause or just general population growth in Utah but the average experience of skiing in the cottonwoods has dramatically gone down hill the last decade.
Hate to break it to you, but Pow-Mow is not local and independent. It got bought out by the Netflix CEO and it's going private. You won't be skiing up there in the future unless you are a multi-millionaire. Eagle point is part of Vail as well. Nordic (laugh) and Brianhead are owned by a smaller corporation but still not independent. I think Beaver and Cherry Creek are the only independent resorts left in Utah?
POW mow is owned by the Netflix CEO who is turning 40% of the ski resort private for luxury real estate owners next years. Youlll be begging for Vail and Alterra to buy powmow after you get driven out by the Netflix CEO and his crownies
I just go midweek? Work life balance gives me every winter off. Need a referral to Doctor WinterhOFF? Sounds like ppl do
@@dsm156 Ok my bad, PC is Vail-owned, not the Cottonwood resorts, I forgot. But my point still stands. Utah's skiing has been ruined. And it is not due mainly to Utah's growth. There is an obvious direct correlation to the Epic & Ikon passes with the increase in crowding here. To think that's not the main cause is wishful thinking.
I skied a local mountain on an Ikon Pass mid-week. The next day I received E-mail from Ikon stating I had a Reservation Violation Notification because I did not reserve a day in advance. Any more violations will result in a 30 day suspension of my card. True, I did not make a reservation because I was not aware of that & should have read the entire Ikon page. Never had to reserve before I got Ikon. They are phasing us out.
I think this is bad for folks out west. BUT, as an east coaster in Ohio, who's home "mountain" was just purchased by Vail and is now in the Epic network, it's kind have been a god send. They've put a lot of money into Brandywine snow making, and the snow has been "decent" for our area this season. It's a catch 22 in all honesty.
Yeah they've put a lot of money into it, because they expect a lot back! They don't do it as a pleasure, as a service to the community. They do it because they see dollar signs, and that means you paying a lot. Maybe not today, but give it a few years. Just ask the good people here in Summit County colorado. It looks good at first, but it takes a few years to get that big beast rolling! And once it does, you better get ready! Because it doesn't stop and the ball keeps getting bigger and bigger, and destroys everything in its path!
Parking reservations have definitely helped control traffic in Big Cottonwood canyon in Utah. Previous years you’d have to rush up at 6-7am to snag a spot. This year I’ve been able to leave at 8-9am even and still get a spot thanks to the parking reservation.
I had Park City season passes from 2014-2023, but with how crowded its gotten, and parking became impossiblee, its just not worth the trouble any more...
I stay local out East and it's still fairly affordable. I'd love to go back out West at some point, but even with one of the passes, the airfare and hotels would blow any affordability out of the water. I try to stay away from any place that Vail has bought, a couple of spots out East that used to be good are now way overpriced and Vail isn't putting any of the money back into the mountains. I can take a decent midweek trip in the WV/NC mountains and don't feel like I'll be broke for the rest of the month, plus the small mountain towns like Davis/Thomas, WV and Maggie Valley, NC still have that great local feel where you can just relax without huge crowds.
The down side is eliminating the casual skier. The upside is that not only do I ski my local Stowe but also a collection of areas around the region, in the west, and Quebec for half price. For years it cost 1200$ just for Stowe, now same for unlimited and all other areas. I buy a cheaper pass with blackouts but just go to other areas when I'm blacked out. As the backcountry days shrink, I rely more on lift access. Does Vail corp have problems, don't get me started on parking fees and uphill polices , limited access to ice climbing areas etc. A good deal on universal day ticket packages i.e. half price day pass rates for multiple days packages for use throughout the season would go a long way toward accommodating casual skiers, uphill access and parking are still big problem.
Passes are great if you ski a ton and live close to a mountain. But if you only get out around ten times a year (or less) you’re screwed. Day passes should not cost over $200 a day
ONLY 10 TIMES A YEAR!?
@@ekay4495 10 times a year or less is not a lot if you live close to a resort or in the mountains. Some people ride 25+ times a year
@@cpellett20 In all my years of skiing we never managed to ski more than 7-8 times a season with my wife. These are 4 weekends for us, 1000 km round trip each.
10 times a year is actually a lot for somebody that doesn't live close. I used to live in Colorado. But now I live about 15 hours away. So every time that I choose to actually ski, before I pay for any of the lift tickets, I have to pay for super expensive room and board, flight, and everything else including a car! Before I even get out on the mountain now, I'm already 2,000 down from everything. All included I'm looking at 3500 for one person. Can I afford it? Absolutely! But I refuse to get hosed! I think that's the issue, people who are creating the passes think that everybody lives very close
@@Massivefacts1 Can be a lot for some categories that live close as well. Me and my wife live 5 hour drive away. We often work on weekends - papers to finish, lecture to prepare, important meeting on Monday. We used to ski often deciding on Friday whether weekend is free enough to drive Saturday morning for two days of skiing. Averaged 3-4 weekends in a season. My daughter with family lives in Vancouver, they also work, kid has activities on weekends, sitting for a dog needs to be arranged. They would have driven to Whistler for a day, one skiing a weekend, perhaps 4-5 times a season. All of this does not fit pass model, so we both are out of this activity.
The reason I hate it is because I don’t always get a chance to ski more than 6-7 days per year, and I really enjoy mountain hopping on a single trip. I feel like I need to choose either Epic or Ikon, because buying 7 day passes is exorbitant, and then I’ve self limited what mountains I can visit.
Same here, 6-7 skiing days were the limit for my family
Yes. Discounted passes used to be a reward for people working and living in the ski town.
It absolutely changed Vail for the worse.
I was in Vail from 1972 - 1992. My buddies there now (!) say it is a nightmare.
@@rahkinrah1963 Yeah woe is them they have to share
Nice Video! That last clip sure looked like one is enogh at Kirkwood! Also looked like @DaleySpam ripping it!
That is indeed @DaleySpam!
I remember my dad complaining about how expensive season passes were back in 2006/7 when they cost only 200$ per person for the whole season & day passes were like 35$ 😅
A few weeks ago a kid knocked me on my back, hit me from behind without warning, while I was doing 28mph on my snowboard. Couldn't snowboard for 2 weeks. I had a bunch of muscles aches all over my body and had to wear a cast on my wrist for a damaged ligament (Luckily nothing was broken) At the fitting, the lady told me, and I quote: " That this is is number 1 reason for injuries these days. People running into each other. There's just too many people on the mountain."
Empty chairs midweek, EVERY midweek. Her views are that of a weekender. Not the sender.
People act like without these pass holders that it won’t be busy at all 😂 ignorant mfs
I've skied at a busy little east coast place for two decades... You don't stop anywhere that people even CAN hit you.. Like., behind a big tree, around a corner, etc
There is a big difference on philosophies between ikon and epic- epic runs the resort there way, while ikon allows the resort to run how it has been which keeps some of its unique feel.
Not true lol
Don’t buy into the marketing. I was working at a resort that went through an ikon buyout and tgis is what they promised. Nowadays the stench of the corporate world is strong.
Not if it's alterra owned, the resorts owned by Powdr or otherwise run independently. The other alterra resorts slowly change to the corporate standard. Vail is more aggressive in how they impose their operation, it is a total take over on day 1, alterra seems to chip away and the place reaches assimilated status 4-5 years in vs 1 to 2 for Vail.
Dude corporate is about numbers that benefit the guys at the top, they could care less about us having to pay more for a single day, or be forced to buy a season pass, that’s the way it is with concessions , parking you name it
The Disney corporation is no different, I understand that a business needs to make money, but come on, really
I mean $5 for a bottle of water that Costco sells for .25cents
In the mid atlantic and northeast, skiing is a waste of time if you can only go on the weekends. The effect of crowds are amplified when it takes only 3 minutes to get down the mountain. Season is compressed due to the weather as is; add to it epic pass and most places have become non-fun if you have to wait 2 hours to park, and 45minutes for each lift ride to go down. I know so many people who aren't bothering with epic passes again
I’ve missed the Epic/Ikon thing (and now just go to a local hill).
I’ve read many comment that Euro hills remain much cheaper. Can you do a vid that compares? It’d be interesting to see WHY euro ski hills can remain cheaper (when I believe they were more expensive in 90’s…I remember chatting with a UK family in VT who said it was cheaper for them to come there than to Aus/Sui/etc)? Is it JUST a corporation/profit driven issue? Is it that more ppl in the US can access skiing than in the past?
I'm in a ski club and I believe the pass system has been a big driver of a dramatic increase in trip costs. As an example, in 2018 a week-long trip to Taos Ski Valley, including 6-day lift tickets, week of ski lessons, airfare and hotels cost $1,800. That same package cost $2,800 in 2024. The lifts aren't dramatically more, but hotel/condo rate are now far higher. The passes increased demand for an activity where it will take many years for increase in lodging to keep up (if it's even possible).
Great video
I was well into writing a long, well thought out post, when my phone glitched and deleted the whole thing. Now you get the cliff notes version.
Resorts had been becoming more commercialized long before epic and icon made the scene. Back around 2000 most of the resorts in Summit County CO fell under the umbrella of Keystone Resorts. Most of the big players either had already become destination resorts, or were well on their way. They actively encouraged non- local visitors to come for several days to a week, while making it more difficult for day trippers. Icon and epic didn’t innovate so much as consolidate. And that consolidation was already well underway. And once any industry starts to consolidate it puts outsiders at a huge disadvantage. You either join, or get pushed aside. This isn’t an apologia for what’s happened under Epic and Ikon, but a perspective that the two were almost inevitable. And as always with consolidation consumers are ultimately left with few options. You buy what’s offered at the price they tell you, or you pay outrageously elevated amounts. The illusion of choice seems like a bonus, but it’s actually limiting your options.
I live in Chicago. There are only small hills around here. Now with those corporate mindset, a day ticket is often around 100 plus rental. I feel it’s so hard to have a ski weekend with the kids now. Ski become such an expensive luxury thing instead just the fun for people who lives in cold climates. Or maybe I should say that my pay increase falls way behind.
Discounted passes used to be reserved for people that worked in the town they skied. Called merchant passes, it incentivized working and living there.
Now every one gets one. VA was a ski company. Now VR is running the show and its real estate holding company first. Thats what really destroyed ski towns and skiing. Real estate greed.
Was looking for this comment. They encourage crowding by offering cheap passes because it lets them charge more for the properties they own/manage/develop.
Good content. I wonder if the crowding really has anything to do with this stuff, and just the fact that the number of people keep increasing. I mean, traffic continues to get worse and worse everywhere in California - of course that's going to be the case on the mountain too.
I wonder the same thing. Is the sport just becoming more popular. Maybe the passes are helping with popularity. Maybe that’s a small positive on the mega pass side. But they are sucking people into their high commitment, low option, expensive, money sucking, evil plan… 😅
Season passes have turned the 5 times a season skier into a 20 times a season skier. This means a ton more skier traffic on the mountain
@@phyllipstallard1694 There is also a lot of resort closures. 65% of all resorts opened in the US have closed.
@@phyllipstallard1694Depends how you define “popular”. The industry is probably shooting themselves in the foot as committed skiers ski more (at a fixed and low cost), while occasional skiers/families go less often. Long-term that decreases the people who want to get into the sport, and the solution will be to jack up the pass rates and hope a fair percentage stick around.
People who use their IKON or Epic pass numerous times to "make it pay for itself" are fooled into a sense of gratification once they "pass the point where it has paid for itself". We do buy the IKON pass because we do ski locally most every weekend when there is snow up in Big Bear and it allows us our trips up to Mammoth but it is still a rip-off. Back in the "old country" (Norway btw) a last minute day ticket at a resort called Hemsedal (20+ lifts, 3,000 ft vertical), an adult day lift ticket is currently 59.00 Euros, or about $64.00 US at current exchange rates. Divide that $1,200 IKON pass by $64.00 and you need to ski 19 times for the pass to pay for itself. By raising the price to $250.00 for a one day lift ticket one is lulled into the belief that it only takes 5 ski days to make it worth the price. Bottom line, without the IKON pass it's cheaper to fly to Norway from LAX, take the bus from Oslo to Hemsedal, stay in a ski-in hotel there for a week and buy a week's pass for Hemsedal Ski resort than to drive to Mammoth from L.A., stay in a ski-In hotel and buy a weeks worth of day tickets (I know they have "week deals" but they got that in Hemsedal too). And remember, Norway is the most expensive country in Europe.
I bought a SKI3 pass this fall for just $49 and get half off weekdays and 25% off weekends with no chance of being sold out for Belleayre, Gore and Whiteface. It's a crazy good deal that pays for itself on your first visit. If you live in the NY area and ski here it's a necessity IMO.
In Utah we now get traffic jams at every resort that’s in one of these passes.
When Veil resorts first rolled out their pass it was because they realized that the profit center isn’t in the skiing, it’s in the shops. They made the uphill travel as cheap as they could and their profits exploded from the business in the shops. Basically the same plan as Disneyland and that’s why skiing now feels like going to an amusement park
Corporate greed ruining another great thing.. it’s so ridiculous the over crowding and prices to ride are at now
The military discount both passes provide has been an absolute blessing for our family. We are super grateful!!! Thank you to both pass companies, we really appreciate it.
When i first moved to CO copper had the snow day pass for 99 dollars. You could ski any day in the season with 4 or more inches . A vail ticket was 125 and i thought that was insane. Abasin was like 70 for a ticket. And it wasnt a minimum drive of 2 hours from denver
LOL when was that 30 years ago? I lived in Tahoe in the mid 90s..worked at Squaw...those days are LONG GONE
Only 2012 actually
I almost stopped skiing in North America, but have plenty of Europe and Japan days. It is cheaper for me to fly to Europe for a week, than going to Rockies in the US
Day tickets are bananas expensive. Must get a pass of some kind if your plan on having an active season.
It seems like skiing and snowboarding have exploded in popularity recently with all these crowds and etc. Maybe it will drop off like skateboarding did in the 80's after the hype and things could get back to normal ???
here in the northeast, they bought up places like jack frost and big boulder, great beginner mountains for skiers. however, unless you have one of those passes and go a lot, the cost is not worth it with a day ticket over $100 for mountains that are worth about $50. This has forced me to drive further north into New York and ski places like Belleayre that are not on any pass system because it is a mountain run by the state of NY, as are Gore and White Face
HAHA Jack Frost is now 100! haha classic! as if! I will get robbed at gunpoint regardless from Vail Resorts and go out west if I'm going to spend that kind of loot to ride a sled hill..absolutely sad they ruined the Poconos too
Going skiing used to be simple and fun. It isn’t anymore, so I stopped.
How does the Mountain Collective compare? It has the 2 day limit (and 50% off extra days) like the Indy Pass but includes a lot of the 5 star mountains. Good middle ground?
Really depends on where you are and if there are any Mountain Collective resorts near you. There’s far fewer of them than are on Indy, so you’d have to travel for it to be worth it, but as you mention they do tend to be destinations (with some of them even also being on Ikon/epic). It also has the advantage of giving a third free day for one resort of your choice.
You didn't mention mountain collective which was around long before Indy pass
I was super sick last night awake at 2am… thanks for the entertainment to get my mind off pain :D
These passes are great if you can ski midweek. We bought Epic midweek local just after retirement and we can ski as much as we want with no crowds and for a very low price. Only a few resorts have a few blackout dates, so can still ski when and where we like.
Midweek is so good you won't even want to go on weekends!
Exactly, luckily my work operates on weekends too so I requested to work weekends during the winter so my “weekend” was during the week haha
Thanks for letting us know. We here at Epic and Icon will see to it that 'loophole' is also eliminated terminated and destroyed.
@@mondoenterprises6710 Yes, retiree's flush with 401k funds, cha ching.
Regarding your section about crowding for unlimited resorts. My family and I will not go to Mammoth in CA on the weekends now for this very reason.
I think the hardest hit resorts by this are the local hills owned by Vail / Alterra. I grew up skiing in Snowshoe WV. When I was a kid, the place was state of the art. It is now lagging behind some competitors in the area. Any profits these mountains make just get laundered elsewhere. Vail has to get a new gondola somehow!
A reservation for parking?! I am speechless.
This makes me love my IndyPass even more.
As a Texas resident (who grew up skiing in the North East), collective passes are ideal. I buy cheaply in the spring and have tons of flexibility around next season’s trips. These of course require me to drive or fly. So far this season, I’ve skid Winter Park, Steamboat, Taos, and Jackson Hole next month. I don’t have the luxury of just going, or not going whenever I want.
Works for some, but I don’t think people realize that pass is having a huge negative effect on the industry. We are moving in the wrong direction…
how was taos?
@@mattchoppa66 I really enjoy Taos. While it’s a smaller mountain in terms of skiable acres, it packs a punch with access to some challenging terrain. When I went, the snow was ok (not great), but it was sunny and they do a good job at grooming. Also, there’s rarely waits for lifts there. Plus, the town of Taos is pretty unique as well. If you go, be sure to hike the highline to get to Kachina peak, assuming the lift is closed. Also, be sure to hit up the Taos inn for drinks and dinner.
I don't know.
I agree with the assessment that there are a lot of problems that have been created, and I know this development hasn't been the best for everyone.
However, for me, as a Tahoe local, I have only seen a benefit.
For $550 or so a year, I can buy a single Epic Tahoe Local pass and get unlimited access to several mountains, including my favorite mountain, Kirkwood.
Kirkwood is mostly the same old Kirkwood. There has been very little change.
Heavenly and Northstar can get crowded on weekends, but I just don't go to those places on weekends.
I have a job that is flexible enough that I can ski a lot of weekdays, so I can almost always avoid crowds, and Kirkwood still doesn't really get crowds to begin with.
So for me, all it really is is that I get to pay just over $500 to ski around 50 times a season... which makes it not even that expensive of a sport, and I can afford to spend more on gear and day passes at other mountains like Rose, Palisades, Sierra etc.
My local mountain offers a mid week pass for Mon-Fri only $350 and I get 10+ days / season. Def beats the whole icon pass thing for such a huge price seeing as I only ride 1 mountain
I live in Oregon and have been to Mt Hood many times. Prob at least 150 times. The snow is decent maybe 1 of 5 times. The light fluffy powder is rare. Used to be fun when Ski Bowl had a long season and was cheap. This was place for young people to hang out. Well I am sure a lot of young people these days don't have a budget to pay up to 150$ for a lift ticket at Mt Hood Meadows. My one wish for any Mt Hood has always been that one of the resorts put in a gondola. The gondola is the key to having a great day of skiing. And a gondola would be so good at Mt Hood as it is high up and gets breezy.
You can buy Ikon in December for like $90 more than early bird. I like to wait to see if it’s looking like a drought year. Tahoe has shifted to more of a Spring season anyway.
I was a part time instructor at a resort that was bought by Vail a few years ago. The changes were felt immediately. That said, Vail DID put in a new lift that helped alleviate traffic and congestion at the base. But...that was the only net positive. I quit teaching a few years ago, and now ride at a locally owned mountain. The drive is a bit further, but it's nice not to have to deal with tourists, entitled yuppies, and tourists. DId I mention not having to deal with tourists? And I get guaranteed FREE parking at my local hill as a season pass holder. Ironically, food is cheaper at the Vail resorts than my locally owned hill, bu that why I haul a grill in the back of the truck and make parking lot burgers.
I gave up teaching a few years back, too. I just hit whatever local, smaller, and state run areas I can now. My trick has always been to bring a cooler of cold cuts, then swap them to a bag and put my bread in the cooler when I park... perfect sub by lunchtime. I can't wrap my head around paid parking- haven't yet, and hopefully will never have to.
So I used to work for one of these companies , the target demographic was not the kid who owns a season pass and skis 100+ days a year , it was the family of 4 from San Francisco that Skis 1 or 2 weekends a year , rents gear, books lodging , demos/rents skis , and eats in the villages. I hate to see this happen to the ski industry but it sold its soul a long time ago. I bailed and went to smaller mountains
Since then I can park infront of the resort , ride parks to myself, not pay for parking , eat cheap food , and not wait in long lift lines
The family of 4 who skies two weekends a season is exactly who are phased out by icon/epic passes (my family in Vancouver is one of those)
@@dmitripogosian5084If you’re headed to Whistler, look into the Edge cards! They’re still reasonable value.
The Epic and Ikon pass add it more affordable for season pass prices. However, the barrier to entry has increased making it ore expensive for a first time skier.
Nearly impossible for the average family to get into it unless youre saving at every corner. Another issue not talked about is how expensive lessons are and how much it discourages new skiers.
@@coookaloLearn to ski at smaller mountains which are cheaper. To make it more affordable, if you live in an area which has ski mountains such as the northeast, you don’t need to fly out west to ski. Do day trips and avoid staying in hotels. The Indy pass is a good option for cheap season pass for families but isn’t good for someone who wants to have a home mountain to ski 30 days a year. The bargain deals from liftopia are over but there are still ways to save on lift tickets.
I don't agree the mega passes are making it too expensive for first-timers. First timers don't belong on and can't take advantage of these large resorts. They need to start at smaller, cheaper places with specials for first-timers. Every region has places like that.
@@michaeltravers3095 I think this video focused heavily on the big resorts, but it is affecting the little resorts who were purchased by the big companies as well. Mt. Brighton, MI(Vail) is 1,100 ft elevation, but costs $75 weekday and $99 weekend if you purchase a ticket at the window. IF they are available. It is priced that way so the Epic pass is such a great deal, since it is unlimited AND you get big resorts as a bonus.
The pass is awesome, but it actively discourages new skiers and people who skied in the past, and want to try it again on a whim.
In the Lake Tahoe area, the cost of learning on independent, beginner hills has gone through the roof too. In part due to inflation, in part due to Epic/Ikon raising their walk up rates. The days of a family deciding on the spur of the moment to give skiing a try affordably are gone. But with some planning and initiative, like joining a ski club, there still are some affordable paths to getting into the sport.
Utah local here, after 36 years of snowboarding. And a skier the prior 10. Ive hung it up for good. Paid parking,reservations, crowds, 2+ hrs in a car at times both ways when you live less that 30 miles away. Its off the rails now completely pointless to fight it anymore. Mega corporations first destroyed the U.S. quality of life. And now they have also destroyed our hobbies and leisure as well.
I’m moving to Epic Local for Park City next year because I’m tired of all the nonsense in the Cottonwoods. I’ll definitely miss the snow but the parking situation and transportation for Park City is better for me and my kids. I can’t fill a car with 4 people, all my friends don’t ski or do the cottonwoods. And the busses on weekends are unusable. Once every 30 mins is a joke.
Well said. I completely agree.
Yep. I live right at the mouth of Big Cottonwood and it's gotten so bad that the line of cars will be past my house on powder days. Takes me an hour and a half at least to get home from work on weekends and I have to usually leave an hour early too. It's only getting worse.
Great video. Skiing whistler for the last 40 years, the Vail take over has had some benefits but the mountains seemed to have lost some community feel to them. It does feel very corporate compared to some smaller mountains in the powder highway. Yet the pass is a good deal. Vail has added new chairs and fixed up old ones son the line ups do move a little quicker. Just needs to do a better job in the food area. Which is far too expensive, has gone down in quality and experienced shrinkage. Other than that, the Epic pass is a good deal.
you’re nuts. whistler has gotten unbelievably worse since epic
Alas, new system killed Whistler for my family in Vancouver
10-15 years ago we would fly over from Europe and do a weeks skiing in US or Canada. Either Aspen or Banff/LL. Then kids came along and stayed in the Alps. If we came over now would we get hit with huge charges for a 6 day ski pass?
Yes. If you plan on a trip for 6 days, you should buy an IKON pass, because you would spend much more on a 6 day pass.
LOL welcome to 2024 America buddy!!
@@eddiek6390 More accurately, You should have bought Icon pass in the fall. No space for snap decisions
Here’s another problem I face at my mountain: Since most sales are forced into pre-season, during the season we have constant broken lifts or lifts they decide not to run to save money, which they simply, label “On Hold” (and/or because of staffing problems). My friend looked up the job postings for lift maintenance and they are paying garbage wages and low income individuals have a near impossible task of finding living locally because it has become too expensive. Again, why do they care if they basically have a monopoly on ski access and already have your money. Personally, I despise what the industry has become. It DOESN’T have to be this way, but their profits are the primary concern.
Yep, it is the model where they want guaranteed money upfront. Like subscriptions everywhere else
I admit, I started hitting Breck and Keystone with Epic since COVID hit. It was just a chance that I reconnected with an old college buddy who is now an empty nester. My buddy gets an enormous discount with a military discount so I keep getting the pass to sync up with him. I'm giving some hard thought if I am going to do my typical Epic 4 day pass next year. I want to try to hit resorts that are not on Epic like A basin, Snowmass, and Loveland. I have heard that Ikon is not as packed as Epic resorts. I expect that Epic pass will go up considerably in the next few years as they have reached a boiling point with capacity. From what I have heard, you can hit some places like Crested Butte that are further away from the Denver airport and they are not as crowded. Unfortunately I think this is a trend as snow skiing is becoming more popular.
I don’t expect the passes to go up in price too too much. They’re not making tons money on the passes themselves, but rather on the real estate they own and manage and rent, whose value goes up the busier their resorts are.
@@Dashie- yah, it may have hit a tipping point in terms of visitors so I hope it doesn't go up. Still worth it to go once or twice a year for me.
A-Basin left the Epic pass a few years ago. Was awesome for the ski experience. Sadly Alterra is buying them and might bring back the crowds.
Family owned independents....Less $ to eat. No parking shenanigans. No crowds. Doesn't get skied out in a hour. No lift lift lines. Supporting local people. Passes/lift tickets are cheaper.
That pretty much sums it up. I like it! Only thing we are missing is for a big resort with epic terrain to hold out and not give in to this crap going on at every large well placed resort. There are better resorts than others, but we need a leader going against the corporate money driven agenda
Sounds great, ohhhh that's right those don't exist in the north east.
Definitely a complex issue. I don't think Epic or Ikon ruined skiing, but they certainly changed it. I've been skiing for over 50 years and like anything else skiing has evolved. Nothing stays the same. There are huge operating and infrastructure costs in the ski industry, and selling seasons pass products including Ikon and Epic during the off season allows the industry to get a good portion of their revenue up front when it won't be effected by poor weather or other factors. Skiing on weekends, Holidays, and vacation weeks has always been crowded, long before Ikon and Epic came along. We just have to manage that and pick and choose when and where we ski the best we can. There has been growing pains with the mega-passes. Jackson Hole and Crystal Mountain in WA learned that and made adjustments. That's came full circle at Crystal and went back to unlimited access on Ikon this year. On one hand these passes have made skiing more affordable for frequent skiers, has likely driven up skier visits from people wanting to "get the most for their money" from their pass, and has inspired ski travel - all good for the "ski economy", but on the other hand the industry's focus on season passes coupled with the incredibly high daily lift ticket prices has likely frozen out the occasional skier or the ones that may take one trip a year. My concern with this is that in the long run this strategy may stifle the growth of new skiers and snowboarders and not be good for the long term health of the sport. I guess we'll see how it all turns out.
In 1971+/-, as a teenager, I went to Steamboat with my parents. Steamboat had a family plan. For the three of us, it cost a total of $27 a day. Yes, for all three of us. Unbelievable. Today the cost would be nearly $700 per day? Wow. Granted, Storm Peak was serviced by a pomalift (you younger readers may have to google that). Powder days lasted all day at Storm Peak back then. It was a blast.
My only complaint about the megapasses is the egregious single-day ticket rates. I ski enough that I'd be buying a season pass somewhere so taking it multi-resort is all benefit for me, but a number of the people I know are more casual and reluctant to commit to buying Days up-front. They wind up underbuying to avoid wasting days, then deciding not to ski at window rates. I can gripe about lift lines, but to be fair this is the first serious wave of re-investment I've seen into the Ski Industry since the early 90s.
Skip Ikon/Epic and go to local mom n pops that haven't sold themselves out to the 2 billionaires who are ruining skiing for everyone.
@@teamcyrmining3673 except my independent home resort wants $950 for a silver pass with Blackouts or $150/ticket. The Epic local pass for the Northeast without holiday blackouts was $555. I visited a friend in Denver last week and my 'local' northeast pass gave me 10 days to ski the Rockies.
Yes they have if u had any feeling of a “home” mountain. Lift lines suck on Saturdays all season long
I am a season pass holder at Killington Vermont and have been for decades, the Ikon pass has turned Saturdays into a shit show. On the Ikon black out days it’s like we have our mountain back. Since the Ikon and Epic pass it seems like the cost of lift tickets have gone off the rails. They have made skiing so expensive if you don’t purchase either a season pass or the Ikon or Epic pass. If someone only skied a few days a year they are being overcharged. I am not a fan but I do have a Killington pass and an Ikon pass because if I don’t day passes are insane out West.
They’ve figured out how to suck the most money out of a sport that used to have a pretty cool bum community and normal community for that matter. It’s hard to have pride when skiing at any of the sellout mega resort locations at this point. It’s effecting everything
Accurate post. We are all dealing with this same crap
@@phyllipstallard1694 They sure have. Skiing has never been cheap but you could always find a deal. The cost now is insane. For those of us that have the virus bad, we have no option but to pay because not skiing is not an option. For my friends and I we live to ski. We are not the ski industries target clients. They want clients that spend lots of money at their resorts. It’s crazy.
I can’t speak to the ikon pass but I can absolutely agree that epic pass has ruined what was left of east coast resort skiing. Epic pass resorts are over crowded, over priced, understaffed, undergroomed, they only make snow in November and December it seems, and rarely are all lifts in operation. You typically can’t even access half of the mountain most days either due to crowds and lift lines on weekends or no lifts being in operation on weekdays. They intentionally overcrowd the place so they can create a problem to sell you the solution of reserved paid for parking. Get your skins folks!
Incredible single day ticket prices. Last season I paid €180 (less than $200) for 7 days in Bormio Italy and it's two neighbouring mountains, over 100km of pistes and has a FIS World Cup downhill track. At those rates I'd be ski touring.
I love skiing and I am an expert terrain skier, however I've decided to take up other pursuits. I'm sure I'll get back to it however I'm taking a break for a while, it's not ticket prices it's the extreme crowds. I now refuse to ski Breckenridge Fridays or Saturdays because it's so crowded and it's even crowded even up at the top of the mountain. Skiing on the intermediate runs is genuinely dangerous. I am going to make sure I ski the independent passes each year.
Perisher in Australia was bought by Vail. The queue for a T bar is up to 30 minutes!. In Japan there are no lift lines at most places I skiied at recently.Plus they have cheap lift passes and real snow.
also move to eur much bigger resorts lower prices thats one thing to do if you dont like how it is now with icon or epic
Just another aspect of modern life. A malignant corporation buys everything, creates a monopoly, and commences the shittification of the thing to boost profits. Corporations are the enemy.
For the independent resorts that are NOT owned by Vail or Alterra, how much would they be paid for an EPIC or IKON passholder who shows up and wants to ride that independent mountain? What $ do they net for providing lift privileges to someone who chooses to fund the Vail or Alterra corporations?