Nick and Kevin rant about the pinball baby game epidemic. Watch the full episode 83 of “Bro, do you even talk pinball?": • BDYETP 83: Jaws Reveal... #pinball #buffalopinball #babygames
There's an extreme difference between a pin owned by an arcade and a pin owned by a hobbyist. I think there should be firmware to accommodate both. A layman casually dropping a dollar is going to find no enjoyment in a pin that an enthusiast will gladly take hours to grasp. To whole handedly shoot down more casual friendly experiences to satisfy the incredibly niche group of well off people that are dedicated enough to own pins is flat out silly to me. This tradition will continue to die out if we cant find a middle ground.
Totally disagree based on what you wrote. The casual player who has no idea that pinball has modes and objectives is typically happy if there's a fun toy, good theme, and they can start multiball. Take Godzilla for example. Shoot the building, building does something cool, multiball happens, casual player happy. Yet it's also a fairly deep game with multiple scoring opportunities that someone serious about pinball can appreciate. The game is able to satisfy both crowds. I say this as someone that operates it in a bar and also owns one in my home. -Nick
@@gusphan Unfortuantely, the casual player tries it once and the novelty ends and they never play it again. They are walking away feeling disappointed in the experience overall, as it barely lasts 2-3 minutes.
This is the kind of talk that chokes out and gate keeps communities because hard games scare away new players. It's called accessibility. Games don't have to bite your bucks like they did in 1991. But that's the best part about pinball. Do what you want. Others will do what they want. And fortunately -- the people making the games understand how to grow the base to what it used to be.
@@gusphan I have an Iron Man. I think it is definitely one of the easier Stern pins. It's also one of the most straight forward to understand. It's strange; everything you say Nick, is the exact opposite of what I have experienced/ seen in pinball. Not that you are wrong, it's just interesting to have such polar opposite views of almost all aspects of the hobby/ industry.
I don't personally own any pins, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but a 5 minute rant that goes, "I can't stand these fucking people who want the code to be how they want it, instead of how I want it", is a bad look.
If you had a machine, you'd know that you'd want it to be challenging enough to the point where you don't lose interest too quickly because it's too easy.
@@gusphan Maybe, but I wouldn't be dictating the experience everyone else should have. But I think the point is that what's a "baby" table to some people IS challenging to other people. We're all different with different capabilities... this should be acknowledged more so than "just get gud."
There's people dictating that they want easier code... Are they the only ones allowed an opinion on difficulty? This is the other side of the coin. A user can make a game easier by changing the outlane settings and/setting it to 5 ball instead of 3. But the game code is not something the user can change, hence this take.
@@gusphan If I saw a video from someone who prefers easier game code saying "Fuck those guys who want to make these games harder. They should play it the way *I* want to play it", I'd say the same thing there that I'm saying here.
The reason why I went all in on pinball is for the delay of instant gratification. It's a contrast to arcade machines. And, to be fair, if you think that pinball machines are more challenging than the plethora of "prize machines" out there where it's sheer dumb luck, you're out of your mind.
I believe that pinball games should have modes and rules that anyone should be able to get. You can have your easy modes and multiballs for the new or average players who want to get into the game and try their best, and you can have the tougher and challenging modes and wizard modes for the expert players who really want to beat the game and win. It's all about balance, don't make it too easy that the game gets boring fast, and don't make it so hard and complicated that it takes forever trying to beat it or the rules give you a headache figuring them out or both.
Having these deep coded games that you have to study the rules just to do stuff (JJP Pirates) isn't going to attract new players. A newbie or casual wants to feel like they're doing something and having fun. They don't want to keep putting in so much money just to do something, or else they won't care to want to learn the code. Simpsons Pinball Party is popular because it's got a lot in it, but also is friendly to new comers and casuals. Can't just be all for you tournament players and pinball nerds
Trying to understand what you're saying, what do you define as a casual or newbie? I'm going to assume someone that probably doesn't know pinball has rules/modes? If that's the case, what makes Simpsons Pinball Party more attractive to that type of person?
Games with deep rules are okay to have, the real problem with JJP Pirates was its rules were too confusing and it took forever to play through the game and beat it, IIRC JJP didn't even finish the code for that game.
Good comments and agree you need to develope your skills and learn tables as an owner. But that's what settings on the machine are for. Without being able to adjust machine for all skill levels you are likely to restrict and discourage sales (Not good for the market).
they kinda are going down the brutal pin hole with the Elwin Bond. Beatles too. they know there is a market for the more brutal games but it just isn't as big as the n00b market. alot these n00bz will eventually be better players and crave a more challenging and rewarding experience. just too many n00bz in the hobby right now. it will evolve. just needs time. good vid. keep spreading the good word brother.
Nick's totally right, it's why I sold my GZ, games were way too long...I know we can change the settings on these games to make them hard or easier, but these NOOBs need to buy an ass kicker pin, and develop their skill set, I tend to like hard games, more fun IMO
I totally agree if there is only one code available. I enjoy having a great game and getting to see the later stuff. But, is a solution to have difficulty modes for several codes like video games have? Easy, Medium, Hard mode?
As an operator and owner of a large (72 pin) collection, you guys are completely out to lunch and delusional. 99% of pinball games are WAAAAAAAY too hard to the new/ average player. That's why the hobby has been on its death bed for the past 20+ years (when compared to video games). Only until recently has it grown in popularity with new players due to heavy theme integration. Make no mistake about it, nothing about pinball matters more than the theme to new players. Unfortunately, there are NO "baby" games currently being made, which is why pins still barely make any money for operators. Notice how FEC's have barely any/ no pinball machines? Because they do not earn. Because they are way too hard. Kids and teenagers never play them or try them once and then walk away. I have watched TONS of new players in my arcade (consisting of 34 modern machines) immediately lose interest because their play times are merely seconds long per ball. Stern needs to make 1 EASY game a year, because everything they are making right now is crazy hard to the average/new player, (who do not, nor ever have, owned a pin). You guys are completely out of touch with reality in this regard.
Something I forgot to mention; while an operator/ user can adjust the difficulty of the code, they are unable to adjust virtually anything on the playfield (pretty much just the outlanes). If you compare the width of shots and ramps to older Williams tables and modern machines, you can see how much wider the older 90's machines were. I think this is another reason why they were so much more popular. Wider shots/ ramps= an easier game. This doesn't even cover how much easier the rules were to understand. I have machines that I have owned for over a year and still have no idea how to play. And no, I have no interest in watching a "how to play video" about it. If the machine can not communicate with the player how to play it, it completely fails in regards to it's design. Godfather is a perfect example of this; I have a CE and even though the back box has an enormous screen, it is completely useless in communicating anything to the player about what is going on, how to play it and what the rules are. I think every JJP game gets progressively worse in that regard.
There's an extreme difference between a pin owned by an arcade and a pin owned by a hobbyist. I think there should be firmware to accommodate both. A layman casually dropping a dollar is going to find no enjoyment in a pin that an enthusiast will gladly take hours to grasp. To whole handedly shoot down more casual friendly experiences to satisfy the incredibly niche group of well off people that are dedicated enough to own pins is flat out silly to me. This tradition will continue to die out if we cant find a middle ground.
Totally disagree based on what you wrote. The casual player who has no idea that pinball has modes and objectives is typically happy if there's a fun toy, good theme, and they can start multiball. Take Godzilla for example. Shoot the building, building does something cool, multiball happens, casual player happy. Yet it's also a fairly deep game with multiple scoring opportunities that someone serious about pinball can appreciate. The game is able to satisfy both crowds. I say this as someone that operates it in a bar and also owns one in my home. -Nick
@@gusphan Unfortuantely, the casual player tries it once and the novelty ends and they never play it again. They are walking away feeling disappointed in the experience overall, as it barely lasts 2-3 minutes.
This is the kind of talk that chokes out and gate keeps communities because hard games scare away new players. It's called accessibility. Games don't have to bite your bucks like they did in 1991. But that's the best part about pinball. Do what you want. Others will do what they want. And fortunately -- the people making the games understand how to grow the base to what it used to be.
Dude, Iron Man is a hard game that does well on location as well as with collectors. It did so well Stern ran the game twice.
@@gusphan I have an Iron Man. I think it is definitely one of the easier Stern pins. It's also one of the most straight forward to understand. It's strange; everything you say Nick, is the exact opposite of what I have experienced/ seen in pinball. Not that you are wrong, it's just interesting to have such polar opposite views of almost all aspects of the hobby/ industry.
@@asdfhiuh it's a pleasure to meet my polar opposite.
@@gusphan lol :)
I don't personally own any pins, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but a 5 minute rant that goes, "I can't stand these fucking people who want the code to be how they want it, instead of how I want it", is a bad look.
If you had a machine, you'd know that you'd want it to be challenging enough to the point where you don't lose interest too quickly because it's too easy.
@@gusphan Maybe, but I wouldn't be dictating the experience everyone else should have. But I think the point is that what's a "baby" table to some people IS challenging to other people. We're all different with different capabilities... this should be acknowledged more so than "just get gud."
There's people dictating that they want easier code... Are they the only ones allowed an opinion on difficulty? This is the other side of the coin. A user can make a game easier by changing the outlane settings and/setting it to 5 ball instead of 3. But the game code is not something the user can change, hence this take.
@@gusphan If I saw a video from someone who prefers easier game code saying "Fuck those guys who want to make these games harder. They should play it the way *I* want to play it", I'd say the same thing there that I'm saying here.
So the issue is the swearing then, not the opinion?
That's why I'll never sell my Black Knight Sword of Rage Pro.
The reason why I went all in on pinball is for the delay of instant gratification. It's a contrast to arcade machines. And, to be fair, if you think that pinball machines are more challenging than the plethora of "prize machines" out there where it's sheer dumb luck, you're out of your mind.
I believe that pinball games should have modes and rules that anyone should be able to get. You can have your easy modes and multiballs for the new or average players who want to get into the game and try their best, and you can have the tougher and challenging modes and wizard modes for the expert players who really want to beat the game and win.
It's all about balance, don't make it too easy that the game gets boring fast, and don't make it so hard and complicated that it takes forever trying to beat it or the rules give you a headache figuring them out or both.
Having these deep coded games that you have to study the rules just to do stuff (JJP Pirates) isn't going to attract new players. A newbie or casual wants to feel like they're doing something and having fun. They don't want to keep putting in so much money just to do something, or else they won't care to want to learn the code. Simpsons Pinball Party is popular because it's got a lot in it, but also is friendly to new comers and casuals.
Can't just be all for you tournament players and pinball nerds
JJP pirates is pretty simple at the end of the day. Start chapters, shoot lit shots.
Trying to understand what you're saying, what do you define as a casual or newbie? I'm going to assume someone that probably doesn't know pinball has rules/modes? If that's the case, what makes Simpsons Pinball Party more attractive to that type of person?
Games with deep rules are okay to have, the real problem with JJP Pirates was its rules were too confusing and it took forever to play through the game and beat it, IIRC JJP didn't even finish the code for that game.
@@juniorjr. How much time did you spend trying to understand the rules?
Good comments and agree you need to develope your skills and learn tables as an owner. But that's what settings on the machine are for. Without being able to adjust machine for all skill levels you are likely to restrict and discourage sales (Not good for the market).
Nearly all machines have plenty of settings that allow owners to adjust difficulty, which I have no issue with.
Making a machine hard to get into/learn is just bad design @@gusphan
Great comments guys. I really love my Godfather LE even more since the last update. 100% agree with you.
they kinda are going down the brutal pin hole with the Elwin Bond. Beatles too. they know there is a market for the more brutal games but it just isn't as big as the n00b market. alot these n00bz will eventually be better players and crave a more challenging and rewarding experience. just too many n00bz in the hobby right now. it will evolve. just needs time. good vid. keep spreading the good word brother.
It was def too easy to complete every mode on location with those ball save times.
Nick's totally right, it's why I sold my GZ, games were way too long...I know we can change the settings on these games to make them hard or easier, but these NOOBs need to buy an ass kicker pin, and develop their skill set, I tend to like hard games, more fun IMO
I totally agree if there is only one code available. I enjoy having a great game and getting to see the later stuff. But, is a solution to have difficulty modes for several codes like video games have? Easy, Medium, Hard mode?
Pinball machines have extensive menu settings that allow people to change the difficulty.
This is an EXTREMELY good take.
Well said
As an operator and owner of a large (72 pin) collection, you guys are completely out to lunch and delusional. 99% of pinball games are WAAAAAAAY too hard to the new/ average player. That's why the hobby has been on its death bed for the past 20+ years (when compared to video games). Only until recently has it grown in popularity with new players due to heavy theme integration. Make no mistake about it, nothing about pinball matters more than the theme to new players. Unfortunately, there are NO "baby" games currently being made, which is why pins still barely make any money for operators. Notice how FEC's have barely any/ no pinball machines? Because they do not earn. Because they are way too hard. Kids and teenagers never play them or try them once and then walk away. I have watched TONS of new players in my arcade (consisting of 34 modern machines) immediately lose interest because their play times are merely seconds long per ball. Stern needs to make 1 EASY game a year, because everything they are making right now is crazy hard to the average/new player, (who do not, nor ever have, owned a pin). You guys are completely out of touch with reality in this regard.
Something I forgot to mention; while an operator/ user can adjust the difficulty of the code, they are unable to adjust virtually anything on the playfield (pretty much just the outlanes). If you compare the width of shots and ramps to older Williams tables and modern machines, you can see how much wider the older 90's machines were. I think this is another reason why they were so much more popular. Wider shots/ ramps= an easier game. This doesn't even cover how much easier the rules were to understand. I have machines that I have owned for over a year and still have no idea how to play. And no, I have no interest in watching a "how to play video" about it. If the machine can not communicate with the player how to play it, it completely fails in regards to it's design. Godfather is a perfect example of this; I have a CE and even though the back box has an enormous screen, it is completely useless in communicating anything to the player about what is going on, how to play it and what the rules are. I think every JJP game gets progressively worse in that regard.
It,s so so good 🤪👑😘