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Holy Horror: A New History of John Brown's Raid (feat. InRangeTV)
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- čas přidán 23. 01. 2024
- In this episode of The Abolitionists, Karl from @InrangeTv joins me on a road trip to Harpers Ferry, West Virginia so we can examine John Brown's 1859 raid from a fresh strategic perspective.
Watch Karl's companion video about the Sharps carbine: • Kickstarting the US Ci...
Watch our post-episode discussion: • Was John Brown Right? ...
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Original Music by Dillon DeRosa ► dillonderosa.com/
~REFERENCES~
[1] Frederick Douglass. The Life and Times of Frederick Douglass (2015 Edition). Zenith Press, Page 238-240
[2] Jonathan Earle. John Brown’s Raid on Harpers Ferry: A Brief History with Documents (2008). Bedford/St. Martin’s, Page 64
[3] Steven Lubet. John Brown’s Spy: The Adventurous Life and Tragic Confession of John E. Cook (2012). Yale University Press, Page 39-59
[4] Jon-Erik M. Gilot & Kevin R. Pawlak. John Brown’s Raid: Harpers Ferry and the Coming of the Civil War, October 16-18 1859 (2023). Savas Beatie, Page 38-43
[5] Charles P. Poland. America’s Good Terrorist: John Brown and the Harpers Ferry Raid (2020). Casemate, Page 32-40
[6] W.E.B. Du Bois. John Brown (1974 Edition). International Publishers, Page 204-207
[7] Douglass, Page 272-279
[8] Du Bois, Page 209-210
[9] Earle, Page 66-69
[10] Osborne P. Anderson. A Voice From Harpers Ferry (1861). Printed for the Author, Page 29-45
[11] Du Bois, Page 232-240
[12] Gilot & Pawlak, Page 74-75
[13] Du Bois, Page 249-251
[14] Earle, 76-84
[15] Earle, Page 122-125
[16] Earle, Page 114-118
[17] Gilot & Pawlak, Page 101
Watch Karl's companion video about the Sharps carbine over on InRange: czcams.com/video/yzkQKte5D9I/video.html
Watch our post-episode discussion where we share our personal thoughts about John Brown, American abolitionism, and tactics for radical activism: czcams.com/video/C4p9Bnj5JJQ/video.html
would you be doing a episode on King Cotton diplomacy ?
You're a vegetarian now? Did "The Ravenous" convert you? Good job!
I loved "The Sudbury Devil"! Keep up the good work!
Hi! Just asking if you could put in the description the names of people you get to read out quotes in these, especially when they're other CZcams creators. I just like having new channels to explore 😊
Hi, I'm from Poland and I watch you and InRange TV.
I didn't think that two channels I like on the other side of the Atlantic would release a cool collaboration.
Know that you have a worldwide audience. :-)
Sir, nobody can compete with you on the history of the civil war. You are the GOAT.
I’m not a religious man. But emotion always flows through me at the words.
“As he died to make men holy. Let us die to make men free, while God is marching on”
I’ve always had the same experience. It’s truly potent language. I’m always bothered when people rewrite the line to “live to make men free,” missing the point of the original.
@@Werelightwell Martyrdom is celebrated in religion
@@scottessery100 The point of that line is to compare the sacrifices of Union soldiers to those of the Christian saints, and of Jesus himself. It’s especially poignant in a secular context, as well, considering that our records of the historical Jesus indicate he really was talking about freedom, and not abstractions of sin. It’s got a special resonance on multiple levels.
@@scottessery100 As a non-religious person, i dont hold the same focus on martyrdom either. But in the case of this quote, it is dying to ensure that the ideals of freedom which are central to my worldview, are shared with all. Dying for that should be respected and held as a high honour, even if living for it would be preferrable. It is about the willingness to give your life for these ideals, not wanting to give your life for them.
Most Union soldiers never had the presence of mind to have had that theology of war. There were few saints and martyrs among them.
This is frankly a mockery to Christianity.
"zeal in the cause of freedom was infinitely superior to mine. Mine was as the taper light, his was as the burning sun... I could speak for the slave. John Brown could fight for the slave. i could live for the slave. John Brown could die for the slave
--Frederick Douglass
"He done more in dying than 100 men would in living"
--Harriet Tubman
Douglass had already BEEN a slave and his oratory skills were such that his being at Harpers Ferry would have been a tragic waste of his talents
@@daniellewillis2767 Are you seriously, 150 years after the fact, telling Fredrick Douglas what was good for him? You're responding to this quote like it was from some strangers, as if Fredrick Douglas' name isn't under the text.
@coolguyjki I am his mother and I know what is best for my Freddie, even if we are both ghosts now. Are YOU seriously, 150 years after the fact, upset about me being of the opinion that Frederick Douglas would have been wasted dying at or because of Harpers Ferry?
@@daniellewillis2767oh honey don't worry about these people they know nothing about our beloved son.
Ever notice how in early 1861, the slave holders pulled a complete 180 on whether or not it's perfectly fine to seize a federal armory by force?
Slavers/slavery apologists lack a moral compass and chose/choose to fill that void with hypocrisy and self-interest.
@@TG-dr6sj Kinda reminds me of a modern political group whose mantra is "it is ok when we do it"!
@@hughquigley5337 y'know how little that narrows it down?
@@hughquigley5337 You'd be hard pressed to find a modern political group who doesn't feel that way
@@negative6442 ...point taken.
Before I watch the video, I’m gonna write this.
Whatever John Brown was, whatever he wasn’t, you have to give the guy at least a bit of credit because he was treated like the lowest form of dirt both by his captors and many of his peers- and he never broke with his commitment to the destruction of slavery. He had that quality that one can respect or admire because he backed up what he said.
John Brown did more for the cause of abolition as such a martyr than he could have in life.
@@warlordofbritannia "John Brown's body lies a moldering in the grave"
Such zealotry often results in great evil, even in service to a good cause. And Brown's zealotry did result in evil on his way to such a just and good cause.
The first to die was a free black railway porter. Fact check that -working from memory.
Oh the irony. Such is history.
I made it until the CSX train, then I had to comment.
Great comments. Spent the past 20 minutes reading and responding. Back to the video...
Amen brother
He was a fanatical zealot in his cause.
I have never been more proud of my family’s history than when I found out a relative of mine (who was an abolitionist minister in Ohio during the antebellum period) donated money to John Brown during Bleeding Kansas in 1856. Brown’s soul truly marches on.
What a legacy to inherit
@@dominicguye8058 Absolutely. From that side of my family, I would have 9 relatives (including that minister’s own sons) go on to fight in for the Union during the Civil War in infantry and cavalry units from Ohio and Iowa. I certainly come from a long line of blue-suited yankees and I’m damn proud of it lol
@@stevenparks4523 Your ancestors were true Americans. It's due to their actions that this country remained unbroken, and is the best and strongest nation in the world today.
It’s really positive to see white people find out they’re a descendant of abolitionists
Trill
Henry Beecher was a solid guy. A pastor, he raised funds to purchase and free slaves. He also sent weapons to the abolitionists who fought in 'bleeding Kansas'. He labeled the crates of muskets that he sent to Kansas as "Beechers Bibles".
What I’ve always wondered is how his soul could continue to march on despite his body moldering in the grave. I sense devilry.
steep thy life in prayer and hope that god shows mercy on your corrupted soul
This is a most serious accusation sir! But if thou is truthful, then you should deliver him forthwith to magistrates of the shire in which you dwell.
His soul marched on to another world to continue his business as shown in the John Brown Isekai.
If I didn't know better I'd say you sound like a wretched sinner, utterly unworthy of God's love. It also sounds like a fountain of pollution is deep within thy nature and thou liveth as a winter tree, unprofitable, fit only to be hewn down and burned.
He's been let loose in the wine cellar of the Lord where the grapes of wrath are stored. Lots of trampling still left to do.
*No one is perfect, but JB really wanted to get the attention of the slavers and it did work in that way.* *Like Malcolm X said, "If you're not ready to die for it, put the word 'freedom' out of your vocabulary."*
But as Fredrick Douglass said sometimes its better to live for freedom also
And yet Malcom X was not involved much with violence even though he loved to pontificate about it. Ironic statement coming from him.
@@page8301 you're not serious
@@page8301 you're not serious
@@page8301 I mean technically he did die for his beliefs
As for your final questions
1: His cause was just. His plan was to take power by force but not shed blood. His closing words before his death were the truest words ever spoken on the subject of abolition.
2. His military goals were an abject failure. Everything in his plan had to go right and almost every step included failure. But as many have noted, the public opinion was heavily swayed by JB writings and comments during his trial. His martyrdom likely was more influential than a successful version of his revolt.
I humbly disagree that his military goals were a failure. His goals were to incite a slave revolt and arm them before strong enough resistance could organize. He occupied the arms to arm the slaves and dismantled communications. The only major failure was the train passing through, letting news quickly spread of the raid. Even if 100 slaves had joined the raid in the first day (which would be a best case scenario), the news spreading that quick was the death blow to the raid, giving ample time for militia to form and pin down them down.
Recruitment was already going well-getting around 24 members-but no slave would join when there is already organized resistance in significant number against them. To dismiss Brown’s goals as setting up the group for failure is failing to recognize just how close they really were to snowballing like in Haiti (comparing more to the low-enslaved-concentration regions of Haiti than the high-enslaved-concentration ones).
but he was ultimately, a terrorist.
In many ways reminds me of the 1916 Irish Rebellion, the act was a failure but its legacy/legend led to success.
I’m gonna be honest I question the necessity of the raid with 2020 hindsight considering the actual civil war was less than a year away.
I don’t think Browns raid really affected Lincoln’s campaign and the states were going to succeed so long as he became president.
He changed public opinion but so did the war itself as people actually saw with their own eyes the horrors of slavery.
@@seanmcloughlin5983Uhh it was literally over a year away, I concur though for the most part. The Harper's Ferry raid definitely had a cultural effect and any mention or suggestion of a party being abolishionist, or a candidate, etc. had negative connotations to many particularly in the South, which could be one of the reasons why Lincoln tried to assure he was not out to end slavery (At the outset.) Had he said in 1860 he intended to abolish the practice on his arrival in office as a main goal, it would've affected his popularity negatively.
“Was he a hero or a terrorist?” Yes
most heroes are terrorists to the losers
@@evan12697yep. Free Palestine on that note.
@@thagomizer4711 Jesus Christ can you Redditors ever make it into a comment section without reciting Current Thing dogma
@@evan12697 1. I don’t use Reddit, and 2. It’s a good example of the subject at hand (distinction between terrorism and freedom fighting being made solely by the winner), and if you’re too blinded by political ideology and chronically-online brainrot to understand that, I’m not sure why you’re even here on this channel watching this video.
@@evan12697 like the American revolutionists to the Brits you mean?
I John Brown am now quite certain that the CRIMES of this GUILTY LAND will never be purged away but with BLOOD
And the words before it as well, the truths he leveled at the feet of those who claimed to represent God while defending slavery, were powerful in their own right.
The traitors hoped it would end with John Brown but feared it wouldn't. And they were right. As was he.
@@pdxcorgidad his soul goes marching on
Still true.
@@ElectronFieldPulse No offense intended, but I'm gonna listen to Frederick Douglass: "He did not go to Harpers Ferry to save his life.
The true question is, Did John Brown draw his sword against slavery and thereby lose his life in vain? And to this I answer ten thousand times, No! No man fails, or can fail, who so grandly gives himself and all he has to a righteous cause. No man, who in his hour of extremest need, when on his way to meet an ignominious death, could so forget himself as to stop and kiss a little child, one of the hated race for whom he was about to die, could by any possibility fail."
Remember the rest of what he said.
🎶 John Brown’s body is molding in the grave
🎶John Brown’s Body is molding in the grave
But his truth is marching oooon!!! 🎶
Glory, glory, halleluuuuuuuuja!!!!
Glory, glory, halleluuuuuuja!!!
Glory, glory, halleluuuuUUUuja!!!
His soul is marching on!!!!!
That final rendition of John Brown's Body had me tearing up. He wasn't a perfect man, and he was a religious zealot. But in that same vein, he was a crusader for what is right. He gave up everything, his children and his life, to be a martyr for the cause.
I wouldn't hold Douglass in any contempt for his inaction. John Brown as martyr, and Douglass as a living abolitionist mouthpiece is more effective than losing both these men on that fateful day.
I would have to agree. Douglass was more important to the cause by him being a mouth piece for change, rather than a soldier for it. I only have one thing, and it is so slight that I wanted to comment on, the fact that his children died as well should not be a testament to John Brown, rather to the courage that John Brown instilled in his children to be the men to pick up arms to help their father create change through their sacrifice. But other than that I would fully agree with every word you said there. Beautifully put.
The question of whether John Brown was right was resolved in my own mind by the reason Dangerfield Newby joined John Brown, as I learned right there at the John Brown Museum right there in Harper's Ferry.
Newby was free, but his wife and children were not. He had learned of his wife's enslaver's plan to sell his her "down the river" through her desperate letters, and he had unsuccessfully negotiated to buy her freedom. John Brown may have been radical himself, but how could some one in Newby's shoes not be motivated to kill or die? John Brown's raid was his last chance for her, and Newby did what even the average person of his time would hope they have the courage and conviction to do in his shoes when provided such a rare opportunity.
I'll tell you what, though, the museum left out just how brutal the shot that killed him as it was explained in this video, and that was absolutely horrific to learn that bit of truth.
Thank you for bringing more knowledge to us about the events of the raid, this was well made and I learned quite a bit, even being familiar with the subject matter.
The story of John Brown is an important one. There is more to be admired than despised.
This is one of the most intelligent and informative videos and commentary that I have encountered on CZcams. I've spent more time reading comments than watching video, and it's comments like yours that makes it worthwhile.
I have visited Harper's Ferry several times as I lived in Baltimore growing up and traveled on the B&O west many times. I know the region fairly well.
Even the scenery is worth a visit.
That's awesome. John Brown is part of the band of people who have changed humanity for the better, even though one can take issue with his methods.
@@andywomack3414 Isn't history awesome? Just walking through the quietness of Harper's Ferry, knowing that a hundred years ago it was a scene of chaos and bravery, the climax of John Brown's life, is overwhelming. God bless John Brown. If there is a heaven he deserves to be there.
@@Peter-jo6yu He deserves to be in hell as well.
Faith in a god makes all things possible, even the most horrific things.
@@Peter-jo6yu What if instead of John Brown, Martin Luther King?
OK, men made possible by their times. It is possible John Brown's way was the only way.
The news of John Brown's dramatic raid, trail and death reverberated far outside of the US. Contemporary Polish poet, Cyprian Kamil Norwid was inspired by them to write the poem "To Citizen John Brown". I won't post the English translation of the poem here. It's easy to find online and I encourage you to do so.
I just want to mention that the poem invokes Kościuszko.
Yes, this comment is just a poorly hidden excuse to once again humbly suggest making a video about Tadeusz Kościuszko in this series.
thanks for the cool thing I did not know until today
These social justice movements have a habit of growing far past their places of origin.
Murals to George Floyd were painted on truck art in Pakistan.
Just recently picked up an online copy of the Peasant Prince and the life of Kosciuszko is fascinating so far.
@@sars910 They apparently identify with a violent junkie who overdosed. Read the coroner's report
One of my favorite moments in history is Kosciszko, in exile, wounded and still processing the defeat of the cause of freedom, meeting a similarly exiled and defeated Little Turtle, Warchief of the Miami in Philadelphia. Little Turtle gives him a pipe tomahawk, the mark of a renowned war chief. Kosciuszko gives him a pair of pistols, telling him they're for use on "the first man who ever comes to subjugate you." They lost and lived, and in a way, that's worse than dying in battle like Tecumseh or Poniatowski, or getting a quick sentence like Brown and so many other patriots meeting the gallows.
That "monument" is so vile
7:12 - Note to tourists - Harper's Ferry is not always this deserted.
Amen!!! I have a house in Sharpsburg...just across the river from Harpers Ferry and one in Frederick City (my house was used for convalescing Union wounded). Someone should do a video on what it's like living in/on a historic site. While you are pondering the dead at Dunker Church I am driving by to pick up a sub and some beer at the Battleview Market (spent bullets in the souvenir shop!!) just up the street!!!
@@Squirmula1 I was thinking the same thing watching this. I'm from right by there in VA. Was so crazy to me seeing the highway signs I pass by every day in this video. To me it's my mundane morning commute whereas someone else may be making a pilgrimage to finally see the place they have been obsessed with their whole life.
I also am a huge history nerd but it didn't really hit me how absolutely monumental the area we live in is to history until later in my life. Like I understood the importance of the raid, but never had strong emotional feelings being in Harpers Ferry. Been going to Harper's Ferry my whole life because its a few mins away and has some of the best food in the area lol. Wasn't until around 2020 that it really hit me that it is absolutely hallowed ground there, possibly one of the greatest actions ever taken by an American happened just up the road from the place I was born. Now it gives me a border line spiritual feeling standing in the park. Crazy stuff.
@@WampusWrangler Check out the early NAACP history there too. It's mind boggling how much happened there. And then the many times the town changes hands throughout the war...
Last time I went with the kids I was awestruck at what had always just been a pretty place to hike. It's on par with Gettysburg as hallowed ground.
@@TemplarOnHigh I was unaware of that! Will definitely look into it.
@@Squirmula1 Please make videos about your experiences
That little dog is clearly very proud of its human owner.
Atun-Shei and InRange is a match made in heaven. Love seeing you two together to deliver some damn good history.
When CZcams is boosting rhodieboo channel Admin Results, this is a counterattack
The best crossover in history by far
As a descendant of a number of men who fought for the Union - including one who marched with Sherman through Georgia, I've always been deeply affected by the last stanza of the Battle Hymn of the Republic (a song descended from the camp song "John Brown's Body")
"In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free"
It was a cause worth fighting (and dying) for.
Agreed
Glory to the Union!
Makes me genuinely cry man
Many, many thanks for this. Remember, too, those who rode with him--Dick Hinton, William A. Phillips, and the Wattles brothers--who carried the struggle into the war.
Noticed the grave headstones. In my daughter's US AP history class, her instructor was good, but had a definite point of view (and we don't live in the South, BTW). One of his extra credit questions on a test was "What was the name of Robert E. Lee's horse?" Yeah, ole' "Traveler". Not really what you need to know about the Civil War, but hey, trivia.
Never hurts to know abstract and specific details. I am an aspiring tintypist and love the men's fashion of the 1860s-70s, but before that knew the normal history-buff stuff, i.e. the politics, order & detail of battles & chronology, legislation etc.
Even Ken Burns has made remarks that show he seems to know seemingly little about the chemical and technical details of wetplate photography, but that's okay.
Definitely something to aspire to in life to become knowledgeable of many things, be the topic the Civil War, or any other of our interests. We never stop learning until we become arrogant or stubborn. 👍
I would really enjoy a video on "famous horses of the Civil War".
Bloody Bill Anderson's horse was named Sterling (after Sterling Price), and he allegedly trained it to trample people on command. Nathan B. Forrest's horse was King Phillip, and was so used to charging bluecoats that many years after the war two policemen in blue uniforms visited Forrest and King Phillip went ballistic.
I'm sure there's many more, and famous Union horses too..
Marvel: "infinity war is the most ambitious crossover event in history"
Atun-Shei and InRange: "Allow us to introduce ourselves"
It's really weird seeing a would-be domestic terrorist and Atun Shei collab.
Genral Grant: “I am inevitable.”
@@jamesharding3459Why would Atun-Shei ever collab with Chaya Raichik?
It's at least their second collaboration
It'd be nice if InRange wasn't hyper racist against white people and wasn't a psycho.
John Brown was the classical American Anti-hero. Someone who was at the time villified and reviled, but whom history later recognized as being ultimately correct.
Pompey magnus wanted to celebrate recent victories, and he wanted to do so in a manner befitting a roman. he bought elephants and put them into the coliseum to fight gladiators to the accolades of spectators who would associate Pompey's glory with the epic entertainment on display. But the elephants werent trained for combat, and so when the games begun it took a dark turn.
Pliny wrote:
"But Pompey's elephants, when they had lost all hope of escape, tried to gain the compassion of the crowd by indescribable gestures of entreaty, deploring their fate with a sort of wailing, so much to the distress of the public that they forgot the general and his munificence carefully devised for their honor, and bursting into tears rose in a body and invoked curses on the head of Pompey for which he soon afterwards paid the penalty."
The reason i felt the need to bring this up is because it reminds us that people can be conditioned to think and feel a certain way, to construct a society, religion and culture a certain way depending on surrounding and internal factors. However, this has given rise to the idea that people are always products of their time, which is true to an extent, but far too often it becomes an excuse to sweep actions, good or evil, under the rug through the lens of moral relativity. Romans were humans, and thus creatures of both passion and compassion, as humans always tend to be.
John Brown is a reminder that only were there a sizeable portion of people who abhorred slavery to the point of being willing to fight it, but there was also a large number of people who adored slavery and refused to even consider ending it, despite awareness of its evil. This is why neo-confederates despise John Brown, because he serves as a bright burning reminder the people who defended slavery werent just misguided or conditioned, but willfully ignorant and determined to be wicked. the outright admission of this being the number of slave owners who tried to dress up their slavery as benevolent, because they knew it was evil and felt the need to defend their practice.
My issue with the raid was that any plan that involves the phrase “and then the people will rise!” Is a bad plan, assume the resources you have when you rise is all you will have. because there’s always reasonable odds that human self preservation instincts keeps people with their head down
Maybe it could’ve worked if it was quick hit and run, capture the arsenal, free some slaves along the way, grab everything that isn’t nailed down, burn everything that is, and then high tail it to the Appalachians before the towns even woken up.
It was honestly more out of desperation than anything, they couldn’t wait any longer with the Browns teetering on bankruptcy paying the dozen guys he’d gotten to join him (none of whom had combat experience.) and the European advisor he’d hired to train them kept threatening to turn them over to the authorities if his payment was late.
Yeah, his one mistake was. He hoped for the best, but he didn't plan for the worst.
I mean hte build up, it could have worked, crazier plans worked but it was probably not great to rely on it. Through if it worked through luck, its not the worst possible plan?
@@marocat4749 that's the point, having a plan with so many parts that can go wrong is not ideal. And he had no back up plan.
If the plan succeeded, we don't even know how it'd work out either.
@@rajabuta I honestly kinda suspect he knew it would fail and the real plan was he would become a martyr like the ones he so idolized in the Bible
The sticking point for that theory tho are his kids who died with him which would either mean they also knew and were with him, or didn’t know and brought his sons with him in a suicide mission to prove a point.
That was actually the original plan, but a wagon train meant top carry the weapons never ended up showing up so what happened happened instead.
As an easterneuropean punk kid I've first heard about John Brown in the Rancid's song of the same title (EDIT: the tile is actually Meteor of War, thanks, @diltzm). This video is fantastically written, fun, informative and had broadened my knowledge of the man. And firmly cemented the above song as one of my alltime favourites.
I grew up in former east germany and our music teachers still sung songs from socialist GDR songbooks with us in class - john browns body was among them. The songbook contained a little text about his backstory. I read it at like age 12 or 13 and was very much in awe ever since then. Our music teacher played the piano and sung like a maniac, very energetic, and to this day I try to channel this kind of energy, being as punkrock as it was, years before I listened to my first punkrock song, everytime I sing or hum it to myself.
As someone who grew up in 1960's - 70's "apartheid Louisiana", in the direct aftermath of the US civil rights movement, I appreciate both of your comments so much. The internet is so filled with trash but I'm infinitely grateful that people from all around the globe can share their experiences with each other. Wishing you all the best from "Theocratic Texas".
In case anyone wants to listen to it the songs title is Meteor of War
@@diltzm that's right, my bad. I'll hand my studed jacket in ... 🥹
@@suzbone thank you for the kind words. Learning that we're not alone and that there are, in fact, people from the other side of the world, with similar ideals, hopes and aspirations, is one of the few remaining bright spots of the "hyperconnectedness".
Best regards, from central/eastern Europe, on the precipice of democratic decline.
Honey, wake up! John Brown's body lies mouldering in the grave, BUT HIS SOUL GOES MARCHING ON!
GLORY GLORY HALLELUUUUJAH
I’m ALWAYS here for Atun-Shei/InRange collaborations. And a shoutout to ABW2A.
Hot dang! I'm the Visitor Services Manager for the Museums at W&L. Sorry you caught the Chapel when it was closed. Wasn't expecting to see you walking through Lexington.
No worries!
I am only 2 minutes in and I really appreciate the nuanced take on John Brown. Like everyone in history he is complicated. Did a lot of good and did some pretty bad things too. I think it’s important to appreciate the good things while acknowledging bad so we don’t repeat it.
Also always happy to see Karl!
Things have become way too black and white when it comes to talking about Brown and Sherman. Slavery was an abomination there is zero doubt about that. However neither of these dudes have clean hands. They both hastened a better world but it wasn't without harming innocent people.
@@isaaclaf1000 are the slavers the “innocents”? 😂😂
@@isaaclaf1000 The fact that you're going, "Slavery was an abomination, BUT" tells me you're one of those people pretending to hand-wring over Brown and Sherman for moral reasons when the reality is that your distaste comes from the fact that Brown and Sherman understood, inherently, that there was no way for the abomination of slavery to end without shedding the blood of those who benefited from the institution.
@@LewisB3217 No
@@LewisB3217
Slavers are far from squeaky clean, but remember the words of Gandalf: “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends…”
I recently read W. E. B. Du Bois' biography of Brown so this will be an interesting comparison point
Shout out to the Soviet Union
Thank you both for the excellent on-scene footage and story of Brown's doomed raid. I've heard the story dozens of times, but never with actual footage of the locations involved.
The engine house is so small! 😲
On scene? They built a Time Machine to do this documentary and get it just right? Even Kubrick would say that’s going too far.
My mother actually designed the Flag for Charles Town. It's definitely different having grown up there.
This is a big day for all of us Jon's, John's, Jawn's, etc.
John Brown lived and died with more courage and conviction in his life than any man I've ever known. Really makes you proud to share a name with the man
the Daughters of the Confederacy monument at @21:30 drove me fucking nuts when i toured Harper's Ferry a couple years back.
Censorship and whitewashing history is as American as apple pie, baseball, etc.
Same. Never wanted to deface something so impulsively in all my life.
That was the intent.
If it it helps I was just in Harper’s ferry last week and I spit on it after reading it. That shit should be locked in a museum and treated the same way we treat nazi artifacts in a military museum. Mangled and broken with a note that explains it’s not meant to be honored but used as a warning to any other groups that try to do it again. After I read it I could couldn’t believe it did let have a large note at the top denouncing the confederacy.
There is nothing mad at all to have a violent reaction against slavery
violence leads to death
@@kittycatwithinternetaccess2356there are sometimes worse things than death.
@@kittycatwithinternetaccess2356 so does slavery
@@LewisB3217 theres peaceful ways to abolish slavery
@@kittycatwithinternetaccess2356 show me 1 example of a time slaves peacefully got what they wanted. How do you be peaceful with someone who says they own you??? With someone that whips you everyday??
I live in "Bleeding Kansas" area. John Brown's legacy is well known and the Missouri/Kansas hard feelings are present to this day
FINALLY!!! Ive been waiting for a John Brown Episode for forever! Thank you!
"Was John Brown a hero or a terrorist?"
Yes.
As an exclusive “or” though, is the statement false?
Doubtless the Redcoats dubbed the revolutionaries terrorists. One could argue the USA was founded by terrorists for terrorists.
@@Justanotherconsumer We dont see any heroic terrorism these days but for the cause of abolition and the cause of anti apartheid one could be both.
As a Dane with a big interest in the civil war era. i actually sought out to visit harpers ferry when I visited the USA in 2017. Quite an interesting place and geographical area.
Plus the whole john brown things seems so absurd it has to be more or less truthful. 😮
This was really good. I've seen the links to the Hero or Terrorist videos and deliberately avoided them. It's good to see a well informed, nuanced analysis that recognizes Brown's genius and his adaptability. It was also good to see pics of home. It's been too long.
Yup, I haven't been back in a decade or so at this point. Home Sweet Home.
Blessed be John Brown. I’ll do anything to make a isekai out of him.
There already is
John Brown : The Anime.
Japanese authors love slavery in their fantasy stories far too much
@@zainmudassir2964Especially for fanservice/titillation, and this exists mostly in male-oriented isekai. All of which is even more disturbing.
There is, thank you for reminding me, I need to read the rest of it
They need to put John Brown into Fate Stay Night.
Another great thing about Browns abolitionism was that he wanted black to get full and equal rights instead of sending them back to Africa like a lot of other abolitionists
I think Brown’s biggest mistake was underestimating the power of social inertia and apathy. Taking a stand is easy when it costs nothing of consequence. Actually fighting for a cause, that’s much more difficult. No matter how dissatisfied a people might be, only a small number will be willing to risk their lives without some greater force compelling them to act. In that sense, the raid on Harper’s Ferry was almost a complete failure. It could be argued, though, that his raid gave the secessionists the inertia they needed to kick off their rebellion, and in doing so, precipitated the war that would bring about the collapse of the institution of slavery. When you look at it in that light, his failure might have been the best possible outcome. The creation of a free Appalachian state would have been as intolerable to the powers that be as the secession of the South. One can only imagine what the US would look like today if the Civil War had been fought against Brown’s new nation rather than the South.
As for whether or not he was right to take up arms in the first place, I think that’s a lot more clear. There’s a place for moderation and restraint. When the other side openly seeks to preserve the practice of keeping human beings as property, that ship has sailed, run aground, caught on fire, and sank. In that case, as the great philosopher Howard Taylor once said, if violence isn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Unless I missunderstood this video he DID understand that inertia. His plan did not entail instant creation of a free state. The raid was to secure the weapons needed to start a guerrila campaign in that mountainous area where the goal would be to slowly get more and more enslaved people aboard. This is why he was moving the weapons away from the town and not digging in. First the most couragous and reckless and then once they aren't broken within a year those more cautous. Plus giving the enslaved an example that they CAN fight their enslavers.
On the other hand would it have worked even had he been able to exfiltrate from the town with his prize is another matter entirely. It seems he might have been thinking that the locals did not know those mountains as he did. I would assume the militias would be hounding them from day one and they would have less places to rest than in Kansas.
Wow. Thank you for this. I remember getting into an argument with someone on Reddit (clearly a smart choice) who argued that because the "first shot" resulted in the death of a black man, then clearly everything John did before or after was null and void.
The motto of the John Brown Gun club, "don't argue with anyone John Brown would have shot."
You guys should have done a meet and greet! I'm right down the road from Harpers Ferry and would have loved to sit down with you both and at least buy a round. I realy do appreciate both of your bodies of work.
While Fredrick Douglas may have considered himself a coward, he alone had access to John Browns entire plans and thinking. Perhaps even though timid, he found faults in JB's plans? All the bravery in the world cannot save you from an ill executed plan or a bullet.
John Brown/Bleeding Kansas were symptoms of the larger context of the political climate at the time. You cannot, regardless of the issue, have so many strong polarized opinions on such serious topics and not expect things boiling over. He was in a lot of ways inevitable. Decades of can kicking and a aversion by both sides of the issue of wanting to create a lasting solution. If not John Brown, then surely someone else. By the time of his raid I think we were past the tipping point and the dye was cast on the Civil War so to speak(honestly i'd kinda consider the war already started after Bleeding Kansas).
As for your questions: Was he right? obviously hes subjectively on the right side of history. While some may condemn his violence, I would suggest that the violence he facilitated, predated him and again he was just a symptom of a larger violent conflict that was already started. Was he effective? IMO, he wasn't as effective as if he was successful. This is a situation that if the raid had worked and nearly gone off without a hitch, we wouldn't likely be asking that question today. We are left with the assumption his true victory was winning hearts and mind etc. We will never fully be able to know how much this victory helped the cause.
John Brown gets my vote for most fascinating American of all-time. Great video, I learned a lot.
Doesnt sound very controversial to me? Slavery is bad, slavers are bad? Stopping bad people is everyones job?
Based
Goddamn autocorrect
A reminder for everyone that evil exists when good men don’t take a stand.
All you have to do is examine modern politics to see how people shrink from important issues under the guise of it being "more complicated" or "controversial".
It sort of makes me tear up that this is concept that been lost in America…
I love the back and forth motif. Even when you're not talking to yourself.
"Never argue with anyone John Brown would have shot" is actually a dope rule to keep in mind whenever one is tempted to feed the trolls.
The legacy of John Brown is one of few things that make me proud to be from Kansas. The man was a hero, full stop. A martyr for one of the greatest causes in history. It appalls and disgusts me that there are Nazis and neo-confederates here breathing the same air he did as they besmirch his name with labels such as terrorist and maniac.
he did kill some innocent people
@@kittycatwithinternetaccess2356 Who said he was perfect?
@@kittycatwithinternetaccess2356Pro-Slavery and "innocent" are polar opposites.
A new collab. Deep, complex, honest, nuanced, wonderfull!Edit: He was effective in accellerating an inevitable process, slavery move from "necessary evil" to "useless cruelty" the day the steam engine became reality.
Greetings from Topeka, home of the John Brown mural "Tragic Prelude." Love your videos. This one included.
The cabin John Brown lived in while planning his raid of Harper’s ferry was moved log by log to Unionville, VA, near the battle of mine run, in Orange County. Pretty cool piece of history.
May his Soul never stop marching 🙏
There were two kinds of abolitionists.. Chickens and Pigs.. Chickens have a relationship with their eggs but Pigs are committed to the bacon..no one can question Brown's commitment.
The final speech and ending sequence with the battle hymn of the republic playing in the background is one of the most beautiful things I've seen on youtube
We got taught about John Brown as sort of a prequel to the Civil War allot, but ironically, it wasn't till I was in infantry school in Camp Pendleton that I learned it was the Marines that breached the engine house. Politics aside, I always get excited hearing about that part of the story.
Once had a pretty fun time tripping on mushrooms in Harper's ferry. I have particularly fond memories of watching a train emerge from the tunnel and being artificially astounded
Psilocybin mushrooms are not artificial :)
@@andreahighsides7756 fair! I was chemically astounded
Great to see you guys do such an educational video on the spots it happened. I’ve visited Harpers Ferry and its a very well preserved town for understanding the history of the Raid.
“I, John Brown, am now quite certain that the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away but with blood. I had, as I now think, vainly flattered myself that without very much blood shed it might be done.” -John Brown’s last written words before being lead to the gallows.
He was without a doubt one of the greatest Americans to ever live.
In a world of Robert E. Lee’s, be a John Brown.
robert e lee was still an honorable man
@@kittycatwithinternetaccess2356 No, he really wasn't.
@@HeroHistory480 theres honorable men in every army
@@kittycatwithinternetaccess2356 I would hold off terms like honor and what have you for men who seemingly abandoned country, kin and oath for money and prestige.
@@Dreamingmerc he only joined the confederacy because his native state Virginia was apart of it, and he didnt want to fight against his family and neighbors.
I love how much care the subject was treated with here.
Hero. I’m black. So thank you Saint John Brown.
When I was in highschool the students made a mural of great people in Black history. John Brown was the only white face in that mural.
I adore that you do this kind of content, because no one talks about these important stories that need to be told. Thank you!
Glad to see more of the both InRange and yourself. So very much happy to see this.
Is a record of the interrogation available; I found his final remarks at his trail.
@31:45 very clear this happens long before his trail, I'll pick this comment up in the morning.
hey man thanks for your content and the fact that you genuinely care about it. I hope content creation treats you well
I’m so glad this video was made. I was hoping both Karl and/or Andy would eventually cover this in detail since it’s right up their allies. Also because there aren’t a ton of great videos on it now
Sounds like we need to bring back a little holy horror.
The diffrence is, today to those who need to feel the horror, no lives matter. All profits and buildings do. 😊
Friendly advice.
To who
i saw that daughters of the confederacy “monument” on a trip to harpers ferry and was so pissed, when have they ever cared about black people?
Yeah... so disgustingly transparent that the friggin Daughters of the Confederacy have never and will never give a rat's ass about that man or that he was killed (in fact they probably resent the fact that he was able to become a free person).
Beautiful presentation here.
I appreciate how much effort & nuance was concentrated into this historical account. I for one learned so much about the details of their resoluteness and the horrific reality of it all.
Thank you for what you do. Mad respect.
AtunShei, Inrange and the Martyr John Brown?!?!? Stop I can only get so hard! Glory, Glory Hallelujah!
Check out _Fire on the Mountain_ by Terry Bisson, a 1988 alternate-history novel in which John Brown's plan was successful (mainly because Harriet Tubman wasn't sick and was able to take part).
He was one of those that was like hey if they want to get violent with us we have every right to get violent right back.
This needs to be a movie, this would make an awesome story for film to tell
I think a movie was made starring the guy from Training Day. ( I can never remember his name)
@@user-qm2li8zx2dit was a show Like six or seven episodes and it’s fantastic.
@@user-qm2li8zx2dand his name is Ethan Hawke
I like the framing of separating "was John Brown right?" from "Was he effective?" Because when you look at the effective part, there are some remarkable parallels to someone whose ideals were almost polar opposite to Brown's, Yukio Mishima.
* Brown and Mishima were both popularly known for their writing and philosophy
* Both men formed very disciplined private paramilitary organizations
* Both men successfully executed elaborate plans to overwhelm and overrun an important military objective
* Both men were depending on their boldness and bravery inspiring an upwelling of support from their target group, for Brown the enslaved population and for Mishima the humiliated and neutered postwar Japanese military
* Both men failed to get that support
* Both men chose to martyr themselves to further their message when everything else had failed
* Both men are in fact remembered long years after their failed operations and deaths
(Michima got a better movie with a nice Philip Glass soundtrack though.)
That's a fascinating bit of history! Yeah there are a lot of parallels and thank you for sharing this knowledge... I don't think I knew anything about Yukio Mishima! John Brown deserves a lot more reverence and sympathy in popular culture.
Most impressive part of this is you managed to get shots of German street without people.
Love your content, coming from a college student missing his home in Harpers Ferry
my family visited Lake placid once years ago. after eating at a me up, breakfast diner and preparing to leave, my dad was stopped by this random old man. He informed us that John Brown’s farm was located there, calling it “the least advertised tourist attraction in the state of new york”, and giving us directions.
after a bit of driving, we found it and as a descendent of enslaved Africans. It was one of the most powerful historical sites I’ve personally visited.
very cool to learn that his plan was for more advanced than I have been taught in schools.
theres a john brown isekai. its equal parts comedy and displaying a mere portion of the horrors of slavery
Please tell me what it's called. I need to see this.
@@Oldass_Deadass_dumbass_channel His Soul is Marching On to Another World, on Royal Road
John Brown was right and he was the single catalyst that sparked the Civil War , Well done great vid both of you.
I love Harper's ferry, such a neat old Town so cool and a great hiking spot. Easily accessible from dc, even by train how cool is that!
Fun fact, apart of them seizing George Washington’s weapons, included the saber of Frederick the Great of Prussia. Frederick the Great was a great admirer of the American experiment and sent it to Washington as a gift. Also fun fact, that story may not even be true. It is doubtful if Frederick the Great ever sent Washington his sword, but people did believe that it was Frederick the Great’s sword.
Honestly I find it hard that Frederick would be a proponent of the American experiment as he himself was a believer of enlightened despotism.
The American Excalibar.
I'm looking forward to finishing this video and the next, along with Karl's video on InRange. Just wanted to leave a comment to help with the algorithm. Thank you for the top-notch content.
If you tremble with rage at a sight of injustice - then you sre my comrade(c)
Solid context for the Pottawatomie Massacre. The entire American Carnage Series is excellent context for John Brown - Jeff does an excellent job contextualizing Brown's actions and debunking myths about him.
Your collabs with Karl have been one of the most unexpected yet awesome internet duos I’ve ever seen.
Wear a hat, comfortable shoes, mark your name and contact info on arch of shoe. Bring an umbrella and lots of water. The hat to obscure your face, the umbrella from direct assault of projectiles and tear gas. Water to neutralize tear gas and mitigate its effects.
we need an atun shei film reliving the Harper's ferry affair
John Brown is the Danger, He is the one who knocks
You asked an objective question while providing more than ample information. I call that journalism
Funny enough, the home of my Shadd ancestors in Buxton, Canada was used at times to plan the raid.
And the tailor that made John Browns coat that hid the guns was in Detroit.
John Brown was truly one of the greatest “white” men in history. If he had fled to Haiti he would probably have been recognized as Black considering it was a political category. Definite method to the madness, and a reminder that those the State considers criminal are not always so the enemy of justice. His souls keeps marching on
Why do you put "" on white?
I mean depending on where he went, probably not. They did go through a period of killing any French people/descendants after the revolution. Some places may not be so willing to let any white people into their community
What an odd thing to day
Lowk weird to say, and I doubt he’d of been considered black, as a white man.
@@basementdwellercosplay Haiti's revolution was not against white people, it was against colonizers. Haiti was very kind to the white people who fought on the side of the revolutionaries. They were treated basically the same after the war, given plots of land repatriated from slavers. Most of these white revolutionaries were Polish migrant laborers also living under the boot of the French colonizers. If John Brown had fled to Haiti, he would have undoubtedly been welcomed with open arms, like other freedom fighters who found their way there during or after the revolution.
He was sure effective. The spark lit by his fighters is echoed in the popular melody which was adopted for Solidarity Forever, which i hear to this day.
Sadly John Browns work never sad strongly in my memory until your video made me aware of the dudes awesome legacy. Thanks for cluing me in
John Brown lore drop? I have waited for this day
I absolutely love both of you channels and I'm so glad you have consistently worked together.