The Meaning of Jonathan Pageau
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- čas přidán 20. 01. 2022
- This video's sponsor: www.thesaintmaker.com/
Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
Support my work by donating or joining the Reinforcements at brianholdsworth.ca
A conversation between Jonathan Pageau and Brian Holdsworth in which we discuss faith and reason, classical vs. modern thought, how and why we shifted away from metaphysics, scientism, empiricism, symbols, patterns, culture, customs, liturgy, and more.
I would have never thought that when I started watching the symbolic world 4 years ago that I would see Jonathan on every major religious podcast around.
Thank you JP for helping bring back traditional Christianity.
Just here to remind us that Jordan Peterson was the one who made sure that the brilliance of Jonathan is known to all of the people he knew, viewers & personal relations alike. I appreciate as well how Jonathan made his own contributions, being a guest in many YT channels over the years.
To ignore the hierarchy of how Jonathan became well-known only makes us less appreciative of how life plays out in mysterious ways, beyond our abilities of prediction
I first saw him on the Jordon Petersen podcast and was exposed to his story - he lives in Montreal not far from myself and I hope our paths cross. I have been listening to him last week speak to Jordon's daughter who has started on the road to christianity herself.
"I would have never thought that when I started watching the symbolic world 4 years ago that"... *I* would be watching every major religious podcast around hehe
@@WalterGirao Lol
@@elektrotehnik94 To be fair, his association with Jordan Peterson is exactly why I avoided him. Seems like God transforms poison (JBP) into medicine (Jonathan Pageu) sometimes.
Before you do another discussion with Jonathan, please consider reading his brother's book "The Language of Creation"; it will allow you to get a lot more out of the conversation.
WOW .
Haughty much ?
@@jackieann5494 wow, that was a bad read on your part I think. I was just thinking myself that reading Pageau's brother could break down some of the conditionings or other mental obstacles in the way. It's not haughty to recognise that Pageau (and his brother) are coming from a radically un-contemporary way of seeing the world.
@@downeybill
Wouldn't be the first time
I’d say that’s a good start
His introductory reflection admitted this.
I think the idea that one has to do extensive and exacting reading in order to participate with someone is still part of the intellectual mindset/crisis.
Jump in, and talk to someone without knowing it all, or go to church, not as an end, but a step toward participation.
29:26 - Purpose always comes first, then reason. The basic structure of reality come through purpose.
39:32 - The world exists through love. The Trinity is Multiplicity and Unity. For the world to exist it has to be a balance between multiplicity and unity. God is both the ultimate version and the source of this multiplicity and unity in that He is both One God and Three Persons.
43:29 - Frames/Identity. Everything is both one an multiple at the same time.
46:06 - The chair, the team, everything is both multiplicity and unity, but gains identity through purpose.
51:33 - Potentiality is bound to a pattern and that pattern has limits. The limits might vary, but there is always limits. This is ritual. No joined purpose, no community.
59:50 - The solution to exclusion is the CROSS. The most important part of the talk.
1:02:37 - The inevitability of the Christian story. It's inevitable BECAUSE without love, without shared purpose, multiplicity cannot participate in unity. This is why the Trinity and the Incarnation are the central teachings of Christianity.
1:09:03 - The highest form of art is participative. The highest art is liturgical art because it is the art in the service of the highest purpose, art that is celebrating the source of all reality.
1:09:40 - the highest form of dancing would be folk dancing, because it unites the multiplicity of the village into a community.
1:12:30 - the Liturgical calendar main mode of participation for society.
All of these themes and several more are covered in great detail on Jonathan Pageau's channel. If you're new to his work, it will most likely take you a little time to "get" it, but it's worth the time, if you have given up of faith or are returning to faith.
Thank you
Dear Bob, thank you for doing this. Appreciated!
Pax
Deus Vult❤🔥
What an awesome conversation. Brian, the primary reason I love channels like yours and Matt Fradd's is that you are open, honest and humble with your vulnerabilities. You guys are not afraid to share your doubts and to reveal an inability to follow or understand something. I started listening to Jonathan about a month back and your intro to this interview summed up exactly how I felt when listening to him. It seemed like he was on to something important and deep, but I often just couldn't grasp what he was saying. I didn't quite understand the language or the concepts he used. I think you hit a home run with this interview. It certainly helped me out.
he often talks on "higher" levels of normal beings. That's sometimes why it sounds gibberish. Even after 7 months, I keep learning a lot, it finally starts clicking
@@stainedglasszealot6231 Jordan Peterson has a video called: the symbolic world - a lecture by Jonathan Pageau. Seems to me as a good summary of his throught.
@@VandeVisscher Indeed, and on a more basic level: there is no literal meaning and symbolism happens. Both great videos
Ditto!
It was the same for me when I started listening! I didn't understand much but I had the strong intuition that he was saying deeper things that I was just not getting. Fast forward to today and now what he says makes perfect sense. I was an agnostic who didn't know much about Christianity but through him and his brother Matthieu, I am starting to see how biblical language should be understood. Through them, a whole new world has opened up for me.
Jonathan Pageau brings out some of the most intellectually captivating experiences you can get. What I see in him is someone who is genuinely thinking, especially in the western world where many are subject to very stiff perceptions of reality that aren't in any way satisfying. And on top of that, the way in which he expresses his thoughts with a uniqueness that you don't necessarily see in most people is truly fascinating. By the way Brian, it's beautiful to see your authenticity in trying to understand these ideas and in so doing, help the audience understand it as well. I hope conversations like these continue and I'm thankful that you're giving us the ability to listen. Keep up the great work!
Man, Jonathan's description of the suburbs is so perfect.
Jonathan's great at putting words into things we all think but don't know how to express.
Brian, I knew you and Jonathan would click. I'm an Orthodox and have been following you for a shorter time than I have been listening to Jonathan. I think I found you through Bishop Barron. I remember thinking that you reminded me of Pageau. The way you both express your ideas, calmly, with respect and humility, and share your convictions with inner strength, neither seeking conflict nor cowering from difficult questions, is very similar. Of all Pageau's interlocutors, you seem closest to him, temperament-wise.
I agree!
Thanks. It's the Canadian temperament.
@@BrianHoldsworth Cold climate, eh? Don't think so, though. In my experience, that calmness, confidence and humility are usually the result of regular praying.
@@BrianHoldsworth The traditional Canadian temperament has been transformed over the past 2 years and changed into something truly repulsive. Politeness, calmness, tolerance, etc. etc. is gone, For me, who has live elsewhere much of my adult life, this sad truth is just coming out in this crisis. Canada has always been a stagnant, colonial, drab. backward, war loving, military outpost.
This is the most interesting interview I've heard with Jonathan Pageau. That's mainly because of your style fitting his, I think. I've heard him begin to express many of the things he said here, but I was irritated by following his thought only to be interrupted by the other interviewers constantly asking for clarification, or disagreeing with him before he's finished the thought. Thank you for allowing him to complete his thoughts before asking for clarification. It allowed me to learn so much.
As always, 3 Aves for you 🌹🌹🌹🙏🏻 and for Jonathan 🌹🌹🌹 May East and West reunite as members of one body 🙏🏻✝️📿
Wow the top person in christainity nowadays
Keep up the good work brother. Your channel means a lot and helps a lot of people. Just wanted you to know that
I am thankful for this content.🙏🏽
YAAAAY! I certainly have been waiting for that!!!
God bless!
Greetings from Brazil!
VIVA CRISTO REI!
SALVE MARIA!
Jonathan Pageau is such a blessing. His videos, articles, and work on the Symbolic World helped me rediscover Christianity in the Eastern Orthodox Church ☦️
I was religious once, but I was a member of a more materialist fundamentalist protestant church that had castrated itself from its tradition and its own history. I had resented my religious past. I was psychologically manipulated into all of these beliefs and it angered me for so long that I couldn't justify God's existence if the creator of such a heinous and forsaken reality could have possibly been benevolent.
Then I too found Pageau. He transformed my understanding of it all. I fell in love with Christian mysticism, but I cannot bring myself to return. I feel very lucky. Instead of my mind being forced into blind submission, it was strong enough to take the trauma I had experienced and refine itself, blessing me with reason and skepticism. But despite my newfound love, I am prohibited by the framework itself from participating in it. It does not allow for the outsider to engage unless they submit themselves to it wholly.
You cannot believe in the truth that humanity can reach the identity of heaven through self transformation unless you believe that Jesus historically and literally died and resurrected. You can't accept that without also accepting all of the liturgical symbolism for interacting with reality and our relationships between each other as presented in Genesis or the books of law. It isn't just a description, it's a description that comes with prescriptions that are fundamentally necessary for participation.
I didn't turn towards atheism because naturalism was more elegant in its explanation or that it gave me answers that I needed internally. On the contrary, I had to reformat my own mind to have the capacity for peace while existing in a constant state of ignorance and uncertainty.
I think Christianity is a beautiful religion, but I don't think it's as true as it claims to be. It's my culture, it was one of the most fundamental contributors to my earlier sub conscious development and it was once the cradle for how I perceive reality, but I have to sacrifice too much of my own developed moral and rational integrity to join in its communion, not because I think I am better than the system, but because I think that what it claims, inerrant truth and divine inspiration, are fundamentally, if not dangerously, beyond the potential of humanity. If that ultimate love and ultimate truth is so far beyond the human potential to comprehend, which I believe it is, how can we uphold any one text inscribed by humans to be the only authority of that truth and love? No matter how close it comes, it can never convey the actuality and likewise I have come to view such adherence to any religion as an act of hubris disguised as faith, so I find myself drawn here not pulled in by identity, but by something more archetypical from my past being satiated as I peer through the window to find people jumping the gaps I cannot make to rid themselves of the plague of uncertainty. I have found that there are many paths that we can take to the top of the mountain, but no matter which path you took, when you reach the peak and achieve the revelation, you realize that it was never about the path, or even about reaching the peak. It was always about making peace with the mountain itself. I cannot help but believe whether or not Jesus actually died and rose again is the least important/relevant fact that the Bible has to communicate. The truth is not contingent upon the religious text, it is contingent upon reality as we experience it.
Jonathan has strengthened my faith in so many ways. Glad to discover this conversation, as I believe it's the most accessible introduction to Jonathan I have listened to yet. Can't wait too share with friends!
I think it's beautiful how this informal approach to dialogue via podcasts is really uniting Christians of many different denominations all together, even including people who might be outside of the Christian faith but still recognize its importance.
I think the synodal Church is missing a huge opportunity to publicise this kind of endeavours. There is a lot more going on here for ecumenism and unity in Christian faith than there is in many projects and "dialogues" started by the Church in the last few years.
I guess Jonathan hit the mark with his comment about self-hating Catholics, I recognise how we as a Church are striving to conform to the needs and wims of the world while the Apostles tried to teach us that the will of God and the will of the world are two different things, like St. Paul's letter to the Romans, chapter 12. Church modernism is poisoning our way of worship in far too many ways. We want to be inclusive, while hating the different identities linked to our tradition, like the Traditional Latin Mass.
I see the fundamental problem with the modern institution of the Church as the fact that it is a very political entity, which has to follow certain worldly tendencies in order to "stay relevant" (quite unsuccessfully) in modern times. Meanwhile, I admire those like the Greek-Byzantine rite Catholics that kept their own traditions, their own ways and are in a way the most militant out of the Catholic denominations, showing that there can still be a way to reconcile the differences between the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox traditions. The ones I met were some of the most critical of modern culture out of any denomination I've ever seen and that has surely helped them keep their strong faith and community together.
I am so thankful to God that I am a Catholic. God bless my Orthodox brothers and sisters. Pax et Bonum.
Dear Brian,
Thank you for upholding the true faith. It is a difficult and often thankless task. Today, I attended the synodal listening session of the Washington archdiocese. The agenda was carefully set up to silence any dissenting voices. I attempted to defend the right of Catholics to attend the Latin rite mass. In vain, however, and I was told that the permission given by Pope Benedict XVI to use the Roman rite was "an experiment" which Pope Francis had rightly suppressed.
Given that the Tridentine mass had predated the Novus Ordo of Pope Paul VI by five centuries, it is the latter, the Novus Ordo, that must be described as "an experiment" and a failed one at that. The purpose of the Novus Ordo was to bring more people into the church and the opposite has occurred.
Let us pray for the church; it needs all the grace God can provide .
Sincerely,
Ray Lepesqueur OCDS
This interivew reminded me why the modern world is so lonely. No real ties that bind. Our public broadcaster in Canada promotes nothing but social justice issues and division. I would have no problem with the CBC if they had people like Jonathan and Brian on.
To understand the roots of Jonathan's Cosmology, I believe it is helpful to either read Father Stephen DeYoung's books, listen to his Whole Council blog, or listen to the Lord of Spirits podcast.
Or you could watch all of his videos, many of them several times, like I did lol
Can confirm - all great sources of understanding the depth of it. Not quick to get through it though, be warned...
Great to see both of you guys. Fantastic conversation that really explained Jonathan's ortodox sensibilities. At the beginning I was a bit lost by the explaination of the meaning of orthodox liturgical rituals, but it all made sens eventually.
As JP2 said, and Brian eluded to, the Church need to breathe both lungs estern and western.
No, the west needs to come back to the faith. There are not two lungs. There’s one church with an unchanging doctrine. The church with a mutated doctrine and constant innovation is not the church, much less a lung.
I really, really enjoyed this interview. Was easy to follow and understand. Loved it. Thank you and God Bless you and your family Brian.
Thank you Brian for all your videos, specially this one. I love it so much because it is so instructional. I follow Jonathan and I find him to be very humble and knowledgeable. Brian keep on being so kind. You are an inspiration.
The point made by Brian at 1.21 is exactly how I feel. A great conversation and the best “primer” on Jonathan’s work that I’ve seen.
So much wisdom here. Please have more discussions.
Thank you Brian! Grateful for your sincere exploration of faith in culture and art...with Jonathan.
Such a great interview! I have been listening to both Jonathan and Jordan Peterson for a few years now. They are high level thinkers and it takes serious attention and reflection to understand their message. This interview brought together two things that I really appreciate - Jonathan’s high level metaphysical description of reality and your relatable, slowed down, and carefully considered approach. Again, this was great. Thank you.
Good to see Jonathan getting exposure within Catholic circles. I think looking back at the Tradition and learning from it has become cool again amongst certain types in the Catholic community, and Jonathan brings out great aspects of it.
Now I just need a conversation between him and Catching Foxes.
I would second that. I brought up Jonathan Pageau to Luke and Gomer several years ago, and mentioned him a couple of times since. Since they’ve recently stated their desire to do more interviews, it might be in the works.
@@davidparkhurst2833 funnily enough, I sent them an email asking them if they have ever heard of him. Gomer said he had been watching his videos, and recently had a deep dive into the orthodox view on atonement, so I guess we can only hope.
Great job Brian . God Bless!
Great conversation! well worth listening to.
Oh that is such a treat!!!!!
Hello ☦️ thank you for this conversation
You can’t be a Jedi but you can be a Saint! That needs to go on a t-shirt, right now!
no that’s cringe and modernist
JEDI Jesus DIsciples
This is good Brian, glad to see this foray!
You know your in for quite a conversation when Jonathan Pageau enters the scene.
What a great conversation.
👍 I have not listened to this conversation yet. I have been waiting for it. I know it a match made in heaven. Lol
Great episode! Thanks!
Thank you!!
I have been watching both Brian and Jonathan for a few months now, and this is a great conversation. I greatly appreciated Brian getting Jonathan to "unpack" some things because I too find that some of what he says goes over my head. And I have a masters degree in theology.
Hey I'm a subscriber to your channel. It would be cool to see a Methodist perspective on current topics in CZcams apologetics.
@@Daniel_Abraham1099 Did you see my most recent video? It does have some points of contact with themes that Brian and Jonathan like to hit upon, but not at the level of depth they go into here.
I have occasionally talked about this idea that we have to have Christ and the Gospel story at the center to really make Western Civilization "go", and so I'm very much in agreement with them on that; of course I'm more sympathetic to embracing (traditional forms of) Protestantism in this discussion
Great content, loved the charity and content!
So great to see you two together! Going to have to come back to listen to this when I have more time. Any chance that you're planning on posting these longer conversations on Spotify or some other podcast platform?
Yes, they're on Libsyn.
@@BrianHoldsworth excellent, thank you!
Oh yeah! The crossover we didn't deserve but hoped for so much!
Great man, I see you everywhere
@@stainedglasszealot6231 You know, Zealot, I just follow Jonathan:) but I'm a fan of Brian too, actually.
@@muadek I'm as well man. Every video that pops up in the recommendation, you've already commented 2 hours before. But your videos are excellent as well!
@@stainedglasszealot6231 Haha, sorry, I have all the time in the world to listen to podcasts, so I devour plenty. Good seeing you here!
Praying for both!
First!! I love JP!!
Just noticed Jonathan and Jordan Peterson have the same initials lol
@@triplea6174 I differentiate with JBP / JP
This is fantastic Brian. I've been following both you and Pageau for a long time now and this discussion with Pageau taken in context with similar first discussions with him was very pleasant. He is a person that has found a way to live in a more pre-modern worldview honestly and without pretending or "larping" the idea. If you ever want to get deep with him I highly recommend reading The Discarded Image by CS Lewis and also Saving the Appearances by Owen Barfield. If reading is less your thing Pageau is probably closest with Paul Vanderklay and John Vervaeke in the youtube world, their discussions will probably interest you. I really appreciate how dedicated you are to apologetics and planned and systematic argumentation which is somewhat lacking in that corner of the internet. I really hope to see more interactions with you and them!
Excellent dialogue, guys! #BeUnited
Wondering what recording of Veni Creator Spiritus the Saintmaker ad used. Super unique and intriguing; would like to find an album or some such.
Love JP!
Fantastic.
I'm a fan of both of you. Very happy to see you meeting each other and talking about christianity.
i could listen to either of these men for hours
This was a great idea.
57:50 this is what already happened to the term "woman". Since it cannot exclude anyone who wants to participate in it, the word itself broke down and became empty.
Can you explain that further?
@@stainedglasszealot6231 When people say, for example, that they are a woman in a man's body, what does this "woman" mean, if not certain qualities of one's body? Then we get to "tesnsgender women are women" and a few logical steps from this and you get the same reply Matt Walsh got recently, when asking "what is a woman?": ANYONE WHO FEELS THEY'RE A WOMAN. I mean, fair enough, but what does it mean? How can you feel you're a woman, when it doesn't mean anything?
I think this is truer to Feminine bc the feminine Chaos doesn't exclude unlike the masculine Logos.. the feminine doesn't establish limits and identities rather it is fluid..
When people don’t get this stuff I always thought they were being willfully obtuse because it’s so obvious. I can’t imagine what it’s like to think any other way. Seeing Johnathan engage with what ever the other mindset is has finally let me understand people or see that the obvious isn’t obvious to most people and I guess they don’t seem to be doing it on purpose. Growing up I thought in was weird, turns out I was just the most basic Christian possible, ancient Orthodox
"Some people became new agers and that kind of nonsense" -Pageau 😆
After listening to this I have discovered one thing:
If I want to be a serious Christian I need to grow my beard and hair out longer.
Lmao 🤣
Great observation..
I'm about to cut mine because it's becoming to "trendy" . In both secular and christian societies.
After some years of Bible study at a Monastery, I’ve been studying Metaphysics with their Fraternity of Verbum Spei. It’s a unique approach, using Aristotle, Aquinas and the Gospel of St John. The weekly classes proceed very slowly and methodically. We’ve just left the examination nature of Existence and Being. We’re now considering the purpose of Friendship.
The words used are defined differently than in our normal secular sense. Every talk leaves me thinking of how opposite this form of reasoning is from everything our modern global culture puts forward as Progress. This isn’t being taught in schools, even nearly all universities. And we see the rotten fruits of this shift from the wisdom of the ages to novelty and the inclusion of all ideas as equally good.
Participation as a hierarchical measure of art’s value is an interesting topic to explore further. I think there are different kinds of participation, and I’ve experienced high levels of mental and spiritual participation by just “ looking” at an object or painting ( or nature) that provokes an internal response in me - a contemplation or an emotion. I don’t think I would experience the same quality of participatory value by joining a folk dance… I think good art should provoke a participation, but then again…propaganda and entertainment often achieves this very well. I think you should dig into this deeper Brian- I could see your hesitation to accept Jonothan’s take on this fully. Great conversation. Hope there is more to come.
If there's something to learn from that art, participating is by far the most superior way of achieving it. As a teacher, I can tell you all research supports engaging all students senses rather than just one visual aspect. Even if you want to contemplate, looking at some art objects in a gallery is better done with someone or, ideally, a group of kindred spirits because then you can exchange opinions and widen and deepen your experiences.
I also hope this aspect of the conversation leads to more discussion Brian because it was very interesting.
Brian, a beautiful priest who kind of bridges the linguistic gap between Catholicism and the Orthodox is Father Thomas Loya.
He’s so articulate and so humble, he has such a wonderful way of explaining how the patterns of God manifest themselves, and how we order our lives and our communities to the Right Order. To him, this is the best way to evangelize.
Because he’s Catholic but Byzantine Rite, he’s got a good grasp of both sets of expression and language.
“Enjoyable” is a really good way to describe Jonathan’s videos, even if the do go over one’s head at times hehe
Alright. I am subscribing.
Regarding Brian's last question: if the Orthodox were to accept Vatican I, then the Orthodox would lose much of their identity and power of influence. This is because Vatican I (and earlier the Gregorian Reforms of the late 1000s) allows the pope to intervene in and exclusively appoint bishops for every single diocese in the world. The vast majority of Orthodox bishops would become what the vast majority of RC bishops are today: papal yes men. This is one reason why the Orthodox have always seen a great danger the innovation that took place in Rome following the schism of 1054.
Yes. Vatican I is the realization and cementation of everything the orthodox feared at the time of the schism.
@@OrthobroAustin Indeed. It's very bizarre to hear RCs say things like "We need the Orthodox to balance the liberalism in the RCC, they should join us". These RCs don't realize that their own heretical ecclesiology and innovations that are now enshrined as "infallible dogmas that you must believe under pain of anathema" are what have led them to this stage? According to them, the pope has the right and authority to appoint and fire every single bishop in the world (contrary to the ecumenical councils of the First Millennium). How could this not lead to a big system of papal yes men?
@@cjgumbert No offense, but Orthodox shouldn't really be throwing many stones currently about "heretical ecclesiology." For Catholicism's many flaws, we are, at the end of the day, one Church. Which Orthodox Church should I join? Moscow or Constantinople? Because they aren't in communion with one another.
@@glof2553 No offense, but the "which Orthodox" argument is a tired one, based on historical ignorance.
Did you know that Moscow and Constantinople also excommunicated each other in 1996? That was healed relatively quickly.
Did you know that there have have hundreds of schisms like this throughout the Church of the First Millennium? If Moscow and Constantinople excommunicating each other disproves Orthodoxy, then it disproves the early Church (which Roman Catholics try to claim was Roman Catholic).
For example, the Meletian schism when Rome and Antioch were out of communion for several decades. In an interesting episode of history that completely disproves Roman Catholic ecclesiology, St. Meletius of Antioch presided over the 2nd ecumenical council while being out of communion with Rome. He stayed presiding over this council until his death (he died out of communion with Rome). This council was called without Rome's permission. How is it possible that a "schismatic" (how Rome defines schism today) was chosen to preside over an ecumenical council? How was he sainted if he died out of communion with Rome (since Florence says "infallibly" that anyone who dies out of communion is damned to Hell which was then contradicted at Vatican II)?
In any case, Moscow and Constantinople are still one Church because every single other Orthodox bishop and patriarch are still in communion with both. I'm under the Georgian Patriarch, Ilia II, who is in communion with both Moscow and Constantinople.
So, to your question, "which Orthodox" Church should you join? Any of them. Find a good priest who will be a real spiritual father.
This is literally a conversation between my right brain and left brain.
This was fantastic, the rise of neo-paganism may be the one thing to unite Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
He sees so clear, the things that we all are swimming in. Thats what genuis is.
So much good, Christian and particularly Catholic content coming from Canadians. It makes me think, is it because they are really feeling the oppression up there? It's a good reaction. I think it's only a matter of time before our reaction catches up to yours. It feels like we are being slowly boiled and too few are speaking up about it.
Holdsworth does a great job of keeping the conversation going and having it be engaging. Whereas Matt Fradd struggled when he interviewed Pageau. Too many moments when what Pageau was talking about went over his head. I sensed the same thing when he talked with Matt Walsh, but that was due to possibly nervousness or some kind of insecurity. I think Fradd is great and genuine, but he can certainly grow in the area of interviewer, especially when it comes to bigger profiled guests. Holdsworth shows himself to be more researched historically and conceptually. Two cents.
I am at the later point in my life (gramma) (cradle Catholic)that finds your discussions interesting.
It reveals to me the manner in which you think.
Believe it or not I have been a deep thinker from childhood.
For me, the specific groups and individual people in the world are so numerous and extremely unique and diverse…so that I prefer not to label anyone.
And actually to do that I believe, just puts people in boxes. Then others have preconceived notions about them.
Bottom line is that we are extremely unique creations, not one alike, and we are made in the image and likeness of God.
We cannot, should do not, group types together.
He is the ultimate artist.
But one thing I thought of when you were discussing a Higher level/being etc was HIGHER POWER.
Having been in AlAnon for over 15 years I was around many non Christians, atheists etc.
If you delve into AA and the 12 steps which you may know, one sees things very differently than say, a ‘Catholic’ or even really anyone else.
Some people in the meetings thought of their Higher Power as the group, the universe, or anything larger than themselves.
Using the 12 Steps they were able to find communion with others and their Higher Power.
They were able to find their purpose and rid themselves of their addiction which took the place of God.
I do not call myself by my faith name or whatever I consider myself to be.
I am Me.
Bottom line is that we are all God’s children.
He carefully placed detailed specific things like talents, appearances etc, into each of our selves, right down to our living cells so we each are designed in one particular way to be in Him and with Him so we are One.
He wants to marry us as I learned and in a marriage, the two become one.
I still say that we ought not over think.
We try to understand a lot but our minds are not even a speck of His incomprehensible intellect, wisdom or being.
I too had found 3-D Rome on you tube.
Very fascinating. I too thought similarly to you.
But I also then felt very deeply inside of my heart, a huge emptiness, a kind of depressive sorrow for those ancient people who had no real God…
(but they did have materialistic huge attractive -or not)…structures and buildings and man made glitzy fake beauty. Substitutes for God. (Similar to today)
We are all looking for inner joy and Serenity. That can only be found at the source…God.
There was an emptiness there in old ROME, and I likened it to be far worse, but similar, to going into a so called “church” which does not have Jesus alive in the tabernacle.
The Presence or lack thereof is detectable within.
Or also in our society today which is growing similar to old Rome… God is being replaced.
Anyway to wrap up, we do not need to reinvent the wheel.
We know Jesus and we need to share the great and powerful news about Him.
Anyone can know Jesus and one does not have to be a specific religion to do so.
Jesus lives inside each of us. He spews forth love and life to everything.
He is the constant energy, the electrical current in motion forever.
We each must plug into that current in whatever way He designed each of us to accomplish that connection.
“Ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you.”
We are on a treasure hunt and it matters not if we follow a specific religious path.
If we really seek our God we need not worry. God will help direct us.
The clues are all around us.
He wants us to try to find Him.
He is patient. He loves all who He designed.
Remember He knows the amount of hairs on our heads.
Some things we will only find out when we meet God face to face.
So the Treasure Hunt continues. ⭐️🌟👑💍💎🙏✝️🏆🕊
So now this is epic.
Music is always a form of worship. We are always worshiping something. With pop music, we are worshiping the artist.
“Revelation is the source of reason.” Through intuition and from there reasonable actions.
Hey Brian, how about, for the next conversation, you two could come up with a list of things both East and West would be able to drop for the sake of reunification? Like, for example, I think that we Catholics could really throw out "fililoque" from the Creed, if it was to bring us closer with the East. What do you think?
Considering orthodox bishops agreed on reunification and were then martyred by their "faithful", I don't think the west has to give up anything (of course if I believed the church did, I wouldn't think she's the true church of christ).
I think the big problem is a lack of catechesis on the part of easterners. I absolutely love Jonathan and his insights, but when he speaks of theology it is very clear he's a neophyte, and needs more instruction.
@@VACatholic oh, that's interesting! Would you give an example where his theology is that of a neophyte? Sorry, I lack sufficient knowledge myself and am not able to spot these things...
@@muadek he very rarely talks about theology in a deep way. But his understanding of the 7th council relates to catholic understanding of iconoclasm was poor. Further his understanding of the filioque wasn't great. But I've only ever seen him talk about these things one time, and thus I give him a bit of a pass as he admits he's not well educated on the topic, and does not tend to walk in these questions.
@@VACatholic thanks. It's really hard for to understand the gravity of Fililoque, even though I've listened to a number of videos on it...
@@VACatholic Considering that the Franks pushed the filioque for the consolidation of their political identity, that numerous popes rebuked it, and that one pope eventually adopted it in the creed not for theological reasons but in exchange for military support from the Germans, I think it's safe to say that the Orthodox aren't gonna drop it because a crowd murdered the bishops who betrayed the faith.
Did you know that Cardinal Humbert, the one that excommunicated (without legal authority) the patriarch of Constantinople in 1054, expressed scorn at the Eastern Romans because they had "removed" the filioque from the original creed? Yeah, it's not gonna get dropped.
Something I would like to understand better about Pageau's worldview is what value he places on historical/factual realities. It seems like he puts a ton of emphasis on the symbolic/the meaningful/the beautiful etc and I'm all for it but it needs to be synthesized with the historical/factual/analytic reality and thought as well I think. In Brian's questions at the end about why Pageau's Orthodox and not Catholic it seemed like he was giving sort of cultural and aesthetic reasons, which are important in their own right, but I think in some sense are not as important as certain historical/factual questions such as: what is the one true Church that Christ established; and whether or not Christ instituted an infallible papal office etc.
Word.
I think Pageau is completely correct about participatory art being the highest form of art. Museums are sterilized tombs of artwork.
Lol there was a glitch in my flow state of following along with this conversation when Jonathan mentioned "taking a dump on the table". @50:45
Would you consider also posting your videos on rumble or odysee?
1:00:00 so beautiful! ❤️❤️
IMHO, a person's faith must first be personal. Having company is nice but nothing to count on; just recall how all churches went dark a year ago. A personal faith can weather that storm!
16:50 I grew up, and still am a devout Catholic, and my dad always said the problem started with Duns Scotus and even the philosophy of St. Bonaventure, so it’s not offensive to all Catholics
The Truth is a pattern that culminates in a Person, the Logos made flesh in Christ Jesus. All understandings of truth, from the profound to the profane, are fractal instantiations of this most fundamental, good and beautiful Truth.
Has anyone ever heard of the tract "Quantum Faith"? It essentially merges faith and reason on describing from a scientific approach how faith actually works. I gave it to a Jewish athiest who was in need of healing.. and he was!
We separated the preternatural with the natural and the supernatural and we forgot that all of those exist right here at the same time, they all happen in reality they all happen in you at the same time, but in explaining reality we started speaking as if we are separated from it and as if the conceptual categorization was reality itself.
Hylomorphism explains that act and potency, spirit and matter, soul and body, heaven and earth (to use Biblical language) coexist united by the Holy Spirit creating reality as we know it. The multiple aspects (father, son and mother) are united by the Holy Spirit and they all coexist within this very reality at every level.
what stops you becoming pantheist?
@@fr.hughmackenzie5900 The fact that God created everything stops me from that, he is beyond any of those categories, he infuses everything, everything is in him, yet he is beyond his creation also, pantheism is the confusion of created things as God himself.
This is from the Summa Theologiæ of Saint Thomas Aquinas Prima pars question 8 answer to the second objection:
"Although corporeal things are said to be in another as in that which contains them, nevertheless, spiritual things contain those things in which they are; as the soul contains the body. Hence also God is in things containing them; nevertheless, by a certain similitude to corporeal things, it is said that all things are in God; inasmuch as they are contained by Him."
@@fr.hughmackenzie5900 Distinctions are made for explanation and intelligibility, the conceptualization and abstraction of reality is just that, abstractions, but the incarnated reality God created is a place in which things converge, there is a confluence here that we tend to forget because we have become abstractionist, we see life in a dissociated manner.
@@AprendeMovimiento Yes indeed, making the spiritual transcend the corporeal stops pantheism. But Pageau's quasi-hylomorphic pyramid from atoms through Man up to God, excludes such distinction. It is excluded below man (like Aquinas) but also, therefore, in man (unlike Aquinas), his football teams etc., and also for God.
At no point does Pageau's hierarchical pyramid infer the distinction of matter and spirit, or, therefore, the distinction of creation from Creator (although he sometimes just affirms it). His inference to God is always directly and exclusively based upon the holistic layers which he (well) discerns in the cosmos.
@@fr.hughmackenzie5900 The word symbol traditionally involves two Latin notions "indicium" (a sign of something) and "collatio" (composition). That's why we can have the "symbol" of the appostles. Pageau explains reality simbolically thus he explains it from the incarnated experience and not from the abstractions we make of that incarnated reallity. When you are walking and just living life you don't experience a separation of the realms you experience everything as a whole, if God made a miracle in your path you experience that in the same reality as a whole, you might "feel" lifted up, but in reality you are not being abstracted from anything, we are the ones who make abstractions to explain the world, if you want descriptions and definitions of the world in an abstract and conceptual manner then Jonathan is not your guy, you might want to go to St. Thomas Aquinas for that, or any scholastic saint.
I use the same alarm ringtone that Jonathan Pageau uses.
1:01:04 To that point, we should then make sure that the entire reading is read when it occurs during the liturgical cycle, and not omit the feared bracketed portion.
That’s only done in the Novus ordo sect.
57:30 absolutely blew my mind. It is the theological explanation of “go woke go broke”
What are the hymn played
The Churches will be united. It is only a matter of intention, faith and time. We need Catholics to hold the line for those that will come to heal the Church and The World.
The only true unification possible is for Rome to repent of her heresies and join the only Church founded by Christ and the Apostles: the Orthodox Church.
I really appreciate Jonathan's statements about oecumenism. As a former roman catholic that became orthodox, I'm still split apart between the fullness of the faith that I believe to be in Orthodoxy, and western medieval art made by my ancesters. I have to stay where the faith remains uncorrupted, but sometimes it's really painfull.
Former Catholic that became convinced of Orthodoxy as well. I love the Eastern tradition in general, but I understand what you mean. I would just say that one doesn’t need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Sure, things went off the rails slowly after the Schism, but there is still holiness, goodness, and beauty in the faith of our ancestors. That’s how I approach it.
Not saying I mix this or that in my private prayer life (since I find fulfillment in Orthodoxy). Just saying that’s the mentality I have. I still privately venerate St Therese though.
I also myself still have a lot of sympathy for a few roman catholic saints, as Bernard of Clairvaux or some more local, and barely known, ones. But I do not ask them to pray for me.
That’s exactly what I felt yesterday, after the Divine Liturgy at the local parish. I visited an old roman catholic church nearby, in which there’s a grave stone made in 1381. The carving shows two spouses buried there, and their dog (not buried with them I guess). Beauty and love, even after the schism.
@@stephanegarnot Yeah, I developed a strong kinship you might say with St Therese (the Little Flower) as a Catholic. I don't see a reason to cease that veneration since she has answered so many of my prayers. I mean, she's integral to how I ended up Orthodox in reality.
But yeah, I agree. There is beauty there historically. To be Orthodox doesn't mean to be anti-Catholic or something. That's for Protestants. We aren't Protestants. We have our disagreements, but an approach like Pageau is a healthy one.
Beauty makes suffering bearable and truth in love will save the world - JBP Paraphrase
Show starter: 7:11
Is the Saintmaker a Novus Ordo slanted program?
Can to make a chair out of water just need to have it be cold and some other things but at least cold as one input into making chair with water in a way that will work
Beauty ! - Guardini, Ratzinger / Benedict XVI, von Balthasar !
I’m confused, and I hope you can help me out.
There’s a word that pops up all over in podcasts with Jordan Peterson, Bishop Barron, and Jonathan Pageau, and occasionally in strictly orthodox Catholic podcasts, the meaning of which seems to change faster than a chameleon changes colors depending on the context in which it’s used, and should we avoid, wherever possible, using the word?
The word is meaning.
What the heck does meaning mean?
To me, it can be applied on many levels, which makes it hard for me to determine the level on which the speaker is using it.
At its most basic level, it’s a simple dictionary definition.
But is there meaning in a rock? Or your hobby? Or your occupation? But is that even close to the same thing as the meaning in your relationship with your sister, or your wife, or God? And what, exactly, is the meaning in each of these things?
Then there seems to be narrower aspects of meaning. The closest synonym seems to be purpose, but close behind are importance, reason, or, as an adjective, even effective, as in a meaningful, or effective outcome. It would be very helpful if these words, with their narrower meanings, were used instead of meaning, where applicable.
The ultimate use of the word seems to come out in the phrase, the meaning of life, but isn’t this the same thing as the purpose of life? Can we unhesitatingly say that the meaning of life is summed up in the two great commandments of Jesus?
Furthermore, is meaning subjective? On a base level, can meaning be simply that which you like? Can the meaning of life be to party ‘til the cows come home? And if I find no meaning in something, is that something, for all practical purposes, meaningless? And what’s meaningful to you can exist on an entirely different level to someone else. I’m sure that your wife means the world to you, but is she equally meaningful to someone who never met her?
So. Wanna you give it a go? Define meaning.
P.S.. I loved the way Jonathan attacks the materialist’s argument on Matt Fradd’s show. At about 23 minutes into the show, Matt asks him “Why is atheism false?” Jonathan’s answer is worth examining. He starts by making broad, sweeping assertions, without explanation (“Meaning is inevitable, meaning is inevitable for the world to exist) but he has some very interesting insights. Yeah, Jonathan can be very frustrating (watch how Matt is wringing his hands throughout) but Jonathan, in his somewhat scatterbrained presentation, manages to build a really interesting case. Check it out. Great for apologetics! And he cracked me up when he concludes that the materialist’s argument is “loopy”. The word fits. Perfectly.
‘Meaning’ is an understanding that there is a pattern behind the matter of reality. Christianity, e.g the insights shared by Jonathan Pageau, (rightly) declares the way to align harmoniously with this meaning.
Rhetoric isn't enough. Ideas and concepts won't bring us closer to God.. experience of Him will. We built a gnostic paradise and are now confused as to why we aren't happy. The simple truth is that we screwed up. A beatific vision isn't enough. We NEED Theosis. We NEED to Be one with GOD!!!
As a ballet lover, I object! Jonathan, you must know that initially ballet was a communal form of art, it's just that it was meant for aristocracy, not for lower stratas. French ballet was a serious business. Lous XIV made all his court watch and participate in the performances that lasted for 11-14 hours. There was a definite hierarchical center there, too. The Sun-King.
Around 30:00 would be better if Jonathan used word "purpose" instead of "reason". Otherwise its confusing
Pray!
Pray if you're PM. You must. It's not just about yourself.... That move wasn't on yourself. Very far from being about yourself personally.
I didn't say be a Catholic.
Knight and Priest. Two-headed beast. King doesn't matter that much. If the inventor of Chess would've said the King is the Queen actually, that would've made it obvious :)