The Holy Grail: The Key to Understanding the West | pt.1 | with Richard Rohlin
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- This is our first Universal History episode on the legend of the Holy Grail. Richard Rohlin and I take a deep dive into the origin of the Holy Grail, how relics convey power and how the Grail forms an integral part of the story of the West.
To build this thread Richard explores 3 sources: the Celtic tradition and particularly their understanding of relics (pt.1), what we'll call the Iberian Virgin and her Holy Grail (pt.2), and finally the cloth that contains the face and body of Christ (pt.3).
Also, go back God's'Dog: www.godsdog.com
Book and articles mentioned:
- The Virgin and the Grail: Origins of a Legend by Joseph Goering: www.amazon.com/Virgin-Grail-O...
- Sacred Space, Sacred Art and The Power of Women, article by Jonathan Pageau: orthodoxartsjournal.org/sacre...
Richard Rohlin’s work:
- Amon Sûl podcast, co-hosted by Richard Rohlin: www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts...
- Finding the Golden Key book project for listeners to submit abstracts: findingthegoldenkey.com
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Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
01:39 Richard’s take on God’s’Dog
08:02 Contents of today’s discussion
09:27 Pt.1: Relic objects in the Celtic tradition
13:44 The altar and the fish
18:28 The forms of the Grail
20:40 How relics convey power
23:56 The Stone of Anointing
26:35 The key idea of the Holy Grail
28:34 Pt.2: The Grail’s connection to the Ascension & Pentecost
37:10 Pt.3: The cloth containing the body of Christ
44:14 Joseph of Arimathea
50:24 The meaning of the unattainable Grail
01:00:15 Outro
======================
- The Symbolic World website and blog: www.thesymbolicworld.com
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- My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson.
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Calling out the fact the thumbnail is from Indiana Jones.
The Holy Grail is pretty much the Holy Grail of Holy Grail lore..
It's that important, culturally
Think about it its an allegory for something that exists internally.
Go listen to some Manly Palmer hall upon this subject.
Western Christendom plunged into scholasticism, philosophy, rationality; mysticism didn’t go away completely per se, but as a focus, it did get pushed to the sideline in favor of systematic theology. Many in the East point to this as the causation of modern man’s eventual sinking into materialism, but my hypothesis is this vacuum caused the fantasy literature renaissance in the west. Authors like J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, G.K Chesterton, Ronald Knox composed these wonderful stories full of mystery and ancient theological tropes. Mystical concepts may have disappeared from the seminaries but were invigorated on the pages of western literature.
I had a deeply moving spiritual encounter when I was eight years old. I answered the altar call. I was very young, and it was emotionally based, but to this day I do not discredit it's authenticity: it was a personal glimpse into the eyes of Love and Truth. But then I grew up. I faded away- not unlike similar evangelicals my age who also had their faith anchored in feelings or revival type experiences. In college I was somewhere in between agnostic in lifestyle and disenfranchised nondenominationalism in creed. However, fostered by my love of fantasy literature, in particular the Chronicles of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings, the eight-year-old Cody never died and he always tugged me back to that magical childhood religious experience. Good authors, like all talented artists, invoke the feeling that beauty, truth, and holiness are somehow all tangibly intertwined. They make you know, in the pit of your stomach, that good and evil are concrete realities. One just needs to go on an epic quest to find them.
This is why I believe, or at least suspect that Story is sacramental in nature. There is a connection between good literature and true mysticism. The entirety of the Scriptures is one overarching narrative of mankind’s relationship with the supernatural (The God of Israel and His angels) and preternatural (fallen spiritual beings).
The old Baltimore Catechism defines a Sacrament as, “A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.” I’m not saying that storytelling is a Sacrament but Jesus exclusively taught in parables - stories. And He is the Logos, the primordial Word ‘story’ of the Father. Deep within our ethos we are programmed for story, for myth, for tale.
Story is quasi-sacramental; referring to the Baltimore catechism once more, “A sacramental is anything set apart or blessed by the Church to excite good thoughts and to increase devotion, and through these movements of the heart to remit venial sin.” Good story has had that result in many. Tolkien used these concepts to reach his agnostic friend Lewis and he was given the Grace of conversion. I too, had the faith kept alive, as a small spark within my imagination due to graceful storytelling.
The stories we tell, matter.
The stories we listen to, matter.
The stories we pass on, matter.
The great schism between the east and west was a demonic attack that made that crazy divided view of the Church. Both sides lost a bunch! but they both accuse each other of going away from the most important things. Both need to go back into unity again, that's it.
@@AprendeMovimiento Your comment has made me think, can you elaborate more, if possible.
Amen! Great post.
I hear many altar boys have this experience.
@@leondbleondb Well, it's very simple, the west attacks the east for the lack of precision in their theology and methodology because it causes big problems (for example in the notion of divorce and remarry) it doesn't have clear teachings it's not systematized, now the east critizices the rationalization and systematization of theology because it doesn't give room to the mystic experience and it's hyperfocused on a moralistic view of reality. These are simple examples but in this regard are BOTH wrong and right, meaning all the riches from the west and riches from the east are extremely valuable and both are needed. We need the spirituality of the Hebrews, the philosophy of the Greeks and the Law of the Latin, our Lord intended it that way, it is written in his cross. So when you hyperfocus on either one you lose the others, that Schism was a trick from the devil. Now that cut of the bread (mystical body of Christ) allowed for the body of Christ to be extended to the entire world but now we must reunite, we must become one body again.
Literally just thinking this morning how I need another world history video with Jonathan and Richard. Praise the Lord.
Extremely interesting, it’s almost like the east and west need each other..
Yes, like the two lungs we are given to breathe with.
The West needs Orthodoxy (as does the whole world). Orthodoxy needs nothing, because it lacks nothing - the Orthodox Church is the fullness of Christ, period. The East suffers insofar as they have departed from Orthodoxy.
Yup. East and west, men and women, natives and aliens, normies and eccentrics, left and right. How we forget this so easily is another mystery.
Yes 😢
YASSSS!!!! this is what I needed today :)
Just attended my first divine liturgy on Sunday btw, it was beautiful but my protestant mind felt very lost haha.
welcome home
How does CS Lewis's Space Trilogy fit in? Is it Sci-Fi, or an independent work of Fantasy not overly influenced by Tolkein. Although Lewis gives a nod to Tolkein's world involving "Numinor"(sic), Professor Ransom is highly unlike Beren, Aragorn, or any of the major warriors/ heroes of LOTR. If any connection of Ransom to any of Tolkien's characters, it is to one of the Hobbits. Balancing between Lewis and Tolkien, I might not have to purge myself of 50 years of Tolkien immersion. But, then, i'm not planning on writing an epic Fantasy novel any time soon.
I was in your place 6 months ago. It really grows on you. Don't try to understand it all at once. Do try to experience it deeply.
Regarding the Mother of God being in the Pentecost icon (34:30f), it is clear from Acts 1:13-14 that "Mary the Mother of Jesus" was there with the Eleven and the other women in the upper room praying together following the Ascension of the Lord. The way Luke connects Acts 1:14 to 2:1 and the outpouring the Holy Spirit at Pentecost shows complete consistency in the members of their company being together and devoted to prayer.
Its like an Oxford seminar, as they used to be, full of grit, God, gritty humor, truth, self study, insight. I skip out lighter, happier w/ a Big Idea Making Me Stronger. May God Bless you guys into eternity!
These talks with Richard are my favourite :D
I was literally just talking with my wife yesterday about how I wanted to learn more about the Grail without the modernist reading. Thank you both!! This is a wonderful video!!
I was lucky enough to get to hear Richard Rohlin give a version of his talk on Percival's ending at the Eight Day Inklings Festival. And believe me, you're not going to want to miss it!
Really love this series. Learning about traditional legends is far more interesting and rewarding than modern media IMO.
really like your name, anarcho christian
It's kinda mind-blowing when you think that most people before modern media would just tell stories to each other instead of being constantly "informed".
As a catholic:
Thank you so much.
The Image you used as the cover for the video I first saw in Indiana Jones as a kid, I was probably 12 years old , that sparked my entire curiosity and pursuit of faith and truth ! Very profound scene !!
I look forward to this series more than any other podcast series
Great topic! I am Orthodox Serbian, and we have epic songs, oraly transmitted, hundreds of them, written down by Vuk Karadžić in 19th century. They centre around battle of Kosovo, fought in 14th. century.
Two such informative lovely human beings! Thank you both so much!
Absolutely fascinating. I do not identify myself with the West because I am Korean-Canadian.
Regardless, it was super easy to listen to, not to mention relaxing and very informative for uninformed individuals like myself.
Canada is a western country.
@@sillygoose4472 dumbest shit I’ve read all day.
Loved this - like a good meal for the mind and spirit. I have been obsessed with the Arthurian legend for half my life. I never tire of the depth and mystery to it. Magic
Thanks Richard and Jonathan!
A fascinating conversation! Thank you and God bless you both.
The universal history videos are the best ones, keep them coming please!
Great discussion. Love also that you used that image from Last Crusade!
Love these shows
Makes me think of Fridays in lent. Symbolically eating the eucharist rather than other meat. Abstaining from the world and partaking in what saves us. What a pattern!
51:30 blew my mind… thanks guys!
The Noble Joseph is also recited quietly in the altar during the chanting of the Cherubic Hymn after the Great Entrance with the chalice and diskos in the Liturgy if St John Chrysostom,
Yes, I should have mentioned that. It's precisely at that moment that the Priest/Deacon is imaging St Joseph.
@@RichardRohlin That is amazing. I'm a convert to Orthodoxy from Catholicism and stumbled upon this video. I love it. Thank you so much.
Wow that's awesome, I can't believe I watched this for free. God bless you all
The fractal fish symbolism around Christ is amazing
Add this to the Universal History playlist!
A true relic is in this world, but not truly of this world and when we are in its presence there exists the potential that we may too be elevated spiritually and experience some form of miracle. A taste of a greater reality.
Excellent - thank you.
So cool. My home parish's patronal icon and feast day is the Holy Mandylion.
I'm re-watching this because I found it so helpful the first time. One (small) point of disagreement: I don't think it's fair to say that magic in Harry Potter is utterly disconnected from virtue.
Throughout the series, it is consistently implied that the deepest, most profound magic is connected with virtue, particularly the virtue of love, which is why Harry is able to defeat Voldemort, most obviously in the final book, but at other points too, such at the end of the first one when only the one who wants the stone but does not want to use it can ever possess it.
Interestingly, part of why Voldemort cannot be victorious is that he dismissed fairy tales and folk stories as unimportant, but Dumbledore and the three protagonists follow the Tale of the Three Brothers to the Hallows.
They aren't perfect books, but I think they are seriously informed by Rowling's Christianity.
The word for fish in Greek (Ikhthus) is an early acrostic Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior (ιχ,θγ,σ). The symbol served as a secretive sign for the early Christians.
Super cool
Ikhthus (Ancient Greek) rhymes with Isous (Hristos) as well.
The fish was used by early Christians because Jesus came in the zodiac age of Pisces
@@silasashe4158 no
That was popularised in Qvo Vadis. The fish is a Christian symbol but there is no historic evidence that they used it as a code.
Jonathan Pageau ...
I discovered your work by way of Dr. Jordan Peterson. I just wanted to thank you and let you know that you and Dr. Peterson, along with the others in your field doing similar work in the world, you have all made a huge positive impact on my life.
My spiritual journey has been quite volatile to say the very least. I was born Catholic, very Catholic. As a child I remember having this sorta general feeling of dread when it came to church, and I quite vividly shared in the terror of Joyce's depiction of Heaven and Hell. I can't tell you how many sincere and heartfelt prayers I sent up to God from the innocence of my lonely childhood bedroom, only to be met with the most definitive and conclusive silence.
As I grew into young adulthood, I found myself stumbling through an environment that did not lend itself compatibly to my gentle and curious nature. I subsequently, set about fashioning an ego that was better suited (or so I thought) to the harsh realities in which I was immersed. It did not take long for this travesty of self I had created to land me in the Spartan comforts of a prison cell.
From the ages of 20 to about 50 I ended up spending roughly 21 years in the state penal institutions of Pennsylvania, my sentences ranging from 2 to 4 years in length. It was an endless nightmare of drug addiction and recidivism, spanning the 30 aforementioned years.
Fortunately, during those years I decided to educate myself. I read philosophy, economics, classic literature, history, poetry biology, chemistry, etc... I even explored the eastern philosophy of the Vedas. In using my time to educate myself in this way, coupled with my utter ignorance of true meaning behind religious symbolism, I became a devout atheist... Devout!
I will concede, however, that the much less dogmatic tenets of eastern wisdom literature did quite a bit to blur the hard line I was drawing in my heart and mind with regard to the spiritual realm. My atheism slowly began to give way to a sort of open-minded agnosticism.
I then stumbled upon Dr. Peterson's "12 Rules" while I was in the prison library waiting to check out. I sat and examined the table of contents, and then curiously fanned through its beautiful and enlightening pages. I couldn't put it down. I didn't put it down until I had read it ...several times. Prior to reading 12 Rules, I had read some Freud, Jung, and Dostoyevsky, and was somewhat familiar with their major works. I had also, just recently finished reading Campbell's "Hero with a 1000 Faces", which brought me several steps closer to understanding this journey. However, it wasn't until discovering Dr Peterson, that I realized just how much of this literature I was reading that I did not quite apprehend. It's, after all, quite profound and dense material. Dr. Peterson (12 Rules, Maps of Meaning, and his Biblical CZcams series) just had a way of crystalizing years of truth seeking into this eloquent and enlightening message which paves the way for me to put together all the pieces of this profound symbolic puzzle in such a way that I was now able to see the spiritual picture that had eluded me for so long.
I was thoroughly convinced and believed that my quest for "The Holy Grail" was over. All my years of searching had paid off, and I now understood what this was all about.
And then, via Dr. Peterson, I found your work, and I was blown away. Much like Dr. Peterson, you have a way of explaining these spiritual symbols, concepts and ideas in such a way that makes the truth of it all, not just easy to understand, but truly and unequivocally obvious.
So for that, and for your years of dedication to your own quest for truth, I solemnly thank you.
Nice chat! Thanks for this obscure but fascinating conversation.
Jonathan can you do a video about Armenia? I loved your video about Ethiopia and what it symbolically represents. I think your thoughts will be interesting about the first nation to adopt Christianity as it’s state religion.
Instant repeat listen 👌👌
31:10 huh, and I've gone through life thinking the Holy Grail was the cup used at the Last Supper..
50:47 That’s profound. Failing to heal the Schism lead to the writing of the Grail stories in the West. That’s the wounded King and the lost Communion right there. History manifesting itself in Story and Symbolism, as to never forget what was lost. - Although as you pointed out, the loss of the religious Mystery in the West concerning the meaning of the Sacrament is even more baffling, and from the perspective of a believer is the more important loss to be noticed, and the more important thing to be preserved in this new Mystery of the Grail, than just remembering the mere fact that the Church split. 59:22
I also think that the discussion from earlier applies: not only the relics but the sacrament itself is nothing that can be wielded by anyone mechanically: the Person needs to have a pure heart - there is preparation to be done: confession and fasting; the Liturgy is not some magic formula to be babbled, but an exercise that orients the whole community, body and soul and all faculties of the mind.
You sold me I’m going to buy a copy of the novel now!!
The Holy Grail within the King Arthur context, was used to create incredibly memorable and symbolic stories of the ultimate treasure quest, which was never about a physical object. This kind of story actually predates the Arthurian era, and was used to simultaneously hold a religious or spiritual secret, and automatically divert those who had no interest in spirituality or religion... and it's extremely clever, and versions of this were later used by the Navy, licensed and unlicensed Pirates in 1700's.
It goes back to a religious book from around 300CE, who wrote about his disgust with the rise in Greedy folk within the village, so he came up with a philosophy based on empty words within a pool of context read by the right mindset will define the empty word(s) themselves. So he drew a Map, with written notes, symbols, cryptic reference to a local landmark. Then wrote I buried the "Treasure" and took my cut, and used the map etc we agreed on, fairwell. Then he made sure it was laying around so someone would see it... and within an hour 4 men had decided that it was a chest full Gold or silver, and also made up a possible weight so they know what there share would be... and they were leaving in the morning to search for it... 'Treasure' a word which requires you to decide what treasure is, your greatest and most cherished treasure maybe a photograph of a loved one... so when you have an ego fuelled by greed you can make grown men search for something that only exists in their Imagination.... what he discovered while watching these people search and fail, is that others would join or take over the search... what he didn't expect is that the 'literal Act of NOT finding the imaginary treasure', was the apparent realization for them that they can still find it, and so the chain reaction began.
Now this was used to create deterrents for pirate 'treasure' galleons needed to leave and didnt want to have to fight on the way home, neither did they want to bury the booty, and then have to travel 1 or 2 months just to get some gold, as some people in the world still believe today that very intelligent navigators Royal institution members Naval pirates would go to an island in the pacific ocean, risking life, ship and crew in the craziest waters on the globe, then bury a chest in the sand.... then draw a map how to find the spot he needs to dig, then non of them ever went back, but all the maps they drew ended up in public hands... oh and noone has ever found buried pirate treasure, washed up and ship wrecks but anyway. They would go to a local island and just leave some digging equipment etc... in the bar they'd talk loudly about his mate who was burying their gold last night on a certain island.. saying they said they forgot their lamp and shovel idiots... as long as a couple over heard, and they check it out and see a shovel, well it's confirmed in their eyes... pirates leave while idiots are digging up an island... still digging one up today, remember if the story is elaborated on enough, then the 'treasure' has 100's of possibilities... and as it doesn't exist then finding it cant happen, but finding old stuff and NOT a ton of Gold bars, makes it worth another year of digging to add to the other 250 years people have been doing the same thing (MENTAL)
So the Holy Grail, is what they called the most secret of religious heartifact, and you are right it consists of 5 pieces...assumptions are of course the concept of some fancy cup, although it's referred to as the cup of Christ, maybe the one he drank from at the last supper, or the cup Mary used to catch his blood which of course if the word is changed to the French graal can mean blood... which was intentional too leading people down another rabbit hole for 100's of years.
The Holy Grail is a sacred metaphysical shape, it's known by many religions and occult and esoteric societies as the completion of the heart. 5 stages to the completing the soul lay within the magnetism of the heart, a dual toroidal field consists of the 2 donut shaped rotating fields, which spin around the central dielectric point of the heart, from this point 2 polar and slightly asymmetrical vortexes incorporate and become a true toroidal stable system... the Holy Grail is the 'Hyperboloid' of the Torus, the hourglass shape which is the final step to true enlightenment... this is even kept under raps in Indian practices as people think activation of the 7 main chakras of the spine means enlightenment, but this comes after and you need to be truly dedicated. It's the ultimate Quest within yourself, there is real Treasure, and you are the one who has all the pieces...and they're buried in your 'chest' of treasure!
.......Well, thanks for clearing up what a Romance is. I've been a bit confused, is all I'll say about that
Do you know the Chalice of Dona Urraca ?
It´s formed by an ancient onyx bowl ( I Century b.c.) that was showed in the Holy Sepulcher Church of Jerusalem as the Cup of the Mesiah . Later, it was stole by muslims and sent to El Cairo. And finally , sent to the Kingdom of Leon in the Norwest of Spain.
There, it was given by King Fernando I El Magno to his daughter, the Princess Urraca, who covered with gold and jewells and wrote her name on it.
Princess Urraca ordered to paint a big Last Supper painting just above the place where she and her parents would be buried. You can see a man showing the onyx cup and offering it to Jesus. You can see another man serving fishes to the disciples for the Supper. The paintings are about year 1.080.
The church has the strange privilege of the permanent show of the Holy Sacrament.
Alfonso VI , King of Leon, was the brother of Princess Urraca. He married with Agnes od Aquitanie and , later, with Constance of Bourgundy. He was wounded by a spair in the leg.
Some people think that trouvadours of the two queens , told about a magic cup in the north-west of Spain. A princess who was her owner, a wounded king, a Kingdom in a big danger (the almoravid attack) . The small onyx cup was hiden into a golden estructure, so, there was the Cup of Christ (the onyx bowl ) and the Holy Grail (the golden Cup that cover the onyx).
And so, one hundred years later , this history was reflected in part in the Tales of the Grail, in the West of France.
There is a good explaining about that, but it is in spanish
czcams.com/video/g2EUFUqhJac/video.html
sorry my poor english, please.
Another information in the Spanish TV ;
czcams.com/video/XU82Ce1NTk4/video.html
A very strange think is that the onyx cup supposed to travel from El Cairo to Spain in the year 1.054. And this is just the year when Christian Church was broken between West and East.
On the edge of my seat, that is a cliffhanger right there.
The best analysis of the Grail story I've ever heard. Theres also the Byzantine image of the Melismos (cutting of the Echaristic child) which occurs almost exactly in Perceval's vision of the Grail in Mallory.
What??? I will have to look that up. If you liked this video, I think you might like the Taliesin's Map channel and his book which is about the symbolism of Celtic and Norse compared to ancient Hindu and he has lot on King Arthur, the Grail knights, and so on.
What a pleasant surprise
Interesting about the bell(s). This throws new light on HC Andersen's fairy tale of the Bell.
It would be helpful if more sources were cited.
Where, for example (and this particularly interests me), can it be found that the ceremonies surrounding the Mandylion in Edessa and Constantinople are similar to those performed in the Grail Castle in the romances? (Which romances, even, are under discussion? The ceremonies vary quite a bit from work to work.)
This is the bomb!
Thank you for this really great video...before I listen to part 2, I just want to comment that maybe the grail stories were ways that God hid truth in plain sight...because the time was coming (and is now) when people would forget Him...but there are those who still seek and can be led by these stories to our Lord.
Whoever gave those thumbs down needs to get out, this is the best series.
Though quite hard to understand, & I do Pageau, Vervaeke, VanderKlay & Peterson with regularity :D
Rewatching this in the light of Mrs Davis. Such a fantastic episode, so deep and interesting. I'm developing a serious man-crush on Richard Rohlin.
51:00 the story being told as unobtainable is very telling indeed
Richard “it’s covered in skin dude”
Jonathan “ what????”
Richard “yeah I knew you would be into that”
The Holy Grail can be seen any day at every Divine Liturgy of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Chalice Holds the Blood of Christ.
Have you read Evola's book on the Grail ? What do you think about what he has to say?
Eivät varmasti vastaa.
Would you recommend it? I've read Revolt and Metaphysics of War by him.
I had the same question
Jonathan you need to talk with Dr. Brett Salkeld about transubstantiation or Andrew Klavan about story telling or another interesting conversation that'd be dope.
¡Viva Cristo Rey!
The motif of the fish in Celtic mythology surely comes from the story of the salmon of knowledge.
Thanks
I read somewhere that the Ark of the Bible was the sunboat of Ra. I liked that.
Have you watched anything by Dan Winter on Grail Science?
Bedankt
For whom the bell tolls
I would love to hear more about their gripes with systematized magic!
If anyone could point me in that direction I'd be grateful.
Regarding this episode’s talk on that, which sounded like referring to apparent systemization of magic in Harry Potter:
1.) “The wand chooses the wizard”
2.) Regarding spells: “you need to say them right!” , refering to the manner in which the words are spoken, you could say “in which spirit they are being said”.
The best example is learning the Patronus charm, one of the stronger spells
3.) A wand’s allegiance can change (note: “it” has an allegiance ^^) & Ollivander talks about wands as spirits, not items
Intuitively I’d say the temptation to view things as power that we can seize from God and can then abuse to contradict his principles, but I haven’t gotten that far yet.
@@elektrotehnik94 Thank you, I see the point you're making. Magic needs to be seen as something outside of human control. It cannot be oversimplified and you need to respect as a living being.
@@animula6908 Agh that makes a lot of sense! We cannot view magic as a simple law of the universe that we can bend to our will. Magic can't be viewed like a science entirely under our control. If you do view it that way you would be lead to believe that we can perform the same miracles that Christ did but without faith in god! Magic needs to be viewed with a form of respect as uncontrollable in a way and still having a will of its own. Thank you
@@chosencode5881 Taking the Christian perspective --> If Christianity's model is right: "magic" (how the Holy Spirit moves things in this world, let's say) "exists" & it comes from God.
God has a will of his own, therefore "the magic" he enables "has a will of it's own"/ "behaves like a living being".
Rummaging through relics of the past is just that, so _"Why seek the living among the dead?"_
The key to understanding ANY society is to LIVE IN IT, and to seek a concerted, determined understanding of it - nothing more or less.
The end goal is to end up at God, The Christ. These relics served their purpose.
Because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Paradoxically, the living saint's presence and the Lord's Grace is manifested in their bones, et al.
What is the difference between the Grail and the Mother of God? Are not they images of the ideal feminine, what receives and expresses the Logos?
Both contain the Uncontainable God. Perhaps we could say Mary is the Grail, in that sense.
@@iliya3110 In the Orthodox hymnography for her feasts it is said explicitly that in addition to being the fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant and the rod that budded, she is also the jar of manna which was in the Ark. So there is definitely the connection with her as the "vessel" of the Bread of Life.
@@whitemakesright2177 Awesome - Thanks for sharing.
Hi Jonathan! What is the best collection/translation in English of the New Testament Apocrypha/Pseudepigrapha?
Do you have any thoughts on Midnight Mass?
How do we protect ourselves from symbolism becoming esoteric talk? I showed my friend videos from the Symbolic World and this was one of his concerns. 🤔🙂🙏
Keep your eyes on Christ. If you're saved by his death on the cross, you're dealing in symbology. You cross over into esoterica and Gnosticism when you begin to believe you're somehow better, "more worthy" or even saved by your knowledge. We are not ever worthy else Christ wouldn't have had to die for us.
We can play semantics, but this *is* esoteric talk. But as the other reply here implies, it is about the fruit that it bears. All traditions have the exoteric AND esoteric.
It isn't esoteric because it isn't hidden. It's all out in the open. Properly speaking, esoteric knowledge is that which is only taught to initiates. Public discussions are exoteric by the very nature of them being public.
My body is ready.
Fish particularly salmon also have the idea of wisdom or knowledge if you can catch & eat it. There is the salmon of knowledge in Irish legend.
I recognize the thumbnail from Indiana Jones. It's in the diary with the grail clues.
Jonathan, are you familiar with the 4 Treasures of the Tuatha de Dannan? One of them is basically a grail and another could be considered a bell.
He appears to not be very familiar with irish mythology. When he's talking about the fish he doesn't mention the salmon of knowledge. This 'salmon of knowledge' is in other indo-european mythologies too, a lot of times its not a fish it's a worm/dragon/serpent. It appears the fish was a latter adaptation, and the worm/serpent was earlier. So you've got a serpent giving knowledge, as the base story in all this indo-european mythologies. Goodness where have we heard that before? Almost as if Eden came first.
Fascinating implications isn't it? Just wish there was more focus on literally everyone not connected to the Indo-European cultural sphere like east Asia, Indonesia, Oceania, Sub-Saharan Africa and the Americas. Like, where would the Aboriginal Australians fit in or Bantu-speakers?
Interesting presentation, but wrong in the assessment of Chretien‘s version as being the best. I would like to make case for Wolfram von Eschenbach‘s Parzival. It takes it to a spiritual depth that is missing in Chretien. In fact, Wolfram’s treatment is the spiritual pinnacle of the grail stories. I hope you will give it the space that it deserves in your discussion of the romances.
When I have seen the image of Sant Climent de Taüll!
Why do you dislike systematized magic? This stood out to me in the discussion. I was under the impression that the language of creation is supposed to be a system of symbols. Is there a problem with organizing it systematically?
❤️
Some things you don’t mention, but may be good connections within the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom:
I. When the priest finishes the great entrance, and removes the aer from his shoulders, places it over the holy gifts- which, by the way, have been set on the antimension, which has the same icon of Joseph removing Jesus body from the cross on it, just as the epitaphion icon has- The priest says “the noble Joseph, taking down thine immaculate body from the cross, wrapped it in linen and spices, and laid it for burial in a new tomb…” So this hymn is said at every liturgy not just during the Paschal season as you mentioned in this podcast… and connects Joseph and the Holy Mandilion with the chalice and patten. The aer becomes a container or skin concealing the containers for the body and blood of Christ, up until just before the faithful partake of the Eucharist!
II. When the priest places the “IC” quarter portion of the Holy Lamb in the chalice he says “the fullness of the cup of faith of the Holy Spirit” … the Greek is hard to translate… but it is nearly identical to the description of Stephen in the book of Acts who is chosen to become one of the first deacons: a man “full of faith and of the Holy Spirit.” So just your as in your podcast commentary here, so in the Liturgy at this point, where the consecrated gifts are about to be given for the peoples consumption, there may a symbolic equals sign between the chalice, the deacon, and Joseph Aramathea and the mandilion/epitaphios.
I would love for you to work this out a little more for me!
For that theory to be true wouldnt the Protestants be the origin of those stories of grail longing since they are the ones lacking most sacraments? In Catholicism continued the giga saints, miracle makers, mystics, apparitions. Even St.Thomas Aquinas who is erroneously seen as having made things excessively intelectual said that all of his writings are but straw after having had a mystical ecstasy.
After the Roman Catholics left the true Church, they no longer had true sacraments. From that point onward their sacraments were merely empty forms, devoid of grace. Their mysticism was a result of delusion and demonic influence. Somewhere deep down they collectively knew this, especially after encounters with the East where truly grace-filled sacraments continued (and continue still).
@@whitemakesright2177 That's just crazy mythology certain people like to peddle. If you remain in that position in the last judgement you'll be amongst those who disparaged God's Saints. I wouldnt want to be in that position.
@@zenuno6936 That is the position of every Orthodox saint going all the way back to the schism.
@@whitemakesright2177 Every Orthodox saint? I find that hard to believe. And if somehow that is true, they are wrong. One has to enter cognitive dissonance to read the writings and lives of western saints and reach the conclusion that they arent holy people. That is just a dark resentment over the schism talking, not common sense.
Orthodoxy has a tendency towards ethnocentrism, and some other word I can't remember. I dont like the word western saints because "west" and "western" is the language of the american empire. Catholic saints is a better term. I've always wondered if Orthodox Christians are aware that Catholic saints and monks exist, when they go on and on about their "theories". Here with this channel, anything is anything, borders are chaos but also containers, stretching is minimizing too as well... am not calling it sophism yet...but jonathan seems to live inside a fantasy world where imaginary monsters dwell in lakes and he is aware that is imaginary but by choosing that state of mind calls it magical, instead. I've never heard them speak of the tribe that via usury owns American media, he prefers to blame the current state of the US and Canada on the natural outcome of the schism with the east....😂..like it happened just yesterday
For someone uninitiated in Arthurian stories, where should I start reading?
Everywhere
The holy grail is definitely older than Christianity. Hermes is said to be the inventor of alchemy and it wasn’t Christian. It would be interesting to see how the even older stories of alchemy relate to this conversation
The Holy Grail is a person with given powers from heaven I perceive she is the second eve that will be indeed with powers on high that can heal all manner of ailments and can heal all mannerif economic problems of the world. I perceive she is already on planet earth.
Is the philosophers stone the same as holy grail ?
At 19:18/1:00:45 The Forms of the Grail. You mention that a Saint will appear again once all the relecis are revealed. I can't help but think first of King Arthur and how he is supossed to return at a certain time, and ultimately the Jesus's Second Coming. I would love your imput and others imput into this symbolism of second coming or disappear only to return at a certain time.
I'm still a novice of symbolic interpretation, been a follower of yours for about a year. I have been attending a local Eastern Orthodox Church for about a month now and am waitng for the blessing to be a catacumen.
On the altars as relics: they always have relics of martyrs in them, of course.
Is it the altar itself or the antiminse, a cloth with the relics, without which the liturgy cannot be served? Both?
@@olgakarpushina492 I was speaking in context of the Western tradition, where the relics are embedded into the stone altar itself, which comes out of the ancient practice of celebrating Mass on the tomb of a martyr or other saint. I don't think there was an antimise in the West.
@@olgakarpushina492 I think that historically, consecrated altars (which have relics embedded in them) did not require an antimension - the antimension was only used when celebrating the Liturgy on an unconsecrated table, especially when celebrated by a bishop. Now of course the antimension is always used, even on a consecrated altar, but I don't believe it is strictly necessary on a consecrated altar.
2 questions:
1) What is nominalism in this context? I understand there was this William of Occam dude who started it, but I don't understand what nominalism is and why it is harmful.
2) What in the world is the context of crusaders putting a prostitute on a throne in the Hagia Sophia? Was it just an FU to the Byzantines?
* There's also a lot of Sufic/Moorish/Persian conceptions of the grail that you are leaving out which were a clear influence.
There are legends in the west. Check out the real life story of Chris Bledsoe
Mary looks like she's holding a bowl of rice krispies @30:30
But what about the Virgin of the Fountain icon? It's the very image of the Holy Grail in Eastern Orthodox iconography. As for "what the Grail really is", the Sufis (and the Tantric Yogis) can answer that: it is al-Qalb, the Spiritual Heart, the precise seat of the Imago Dei (al-Ruh, the Spirit) within the human soul ---- what the yogis call the Hridayam, "the Cave of the Heart". For was Christ not born in a cave --- and from a cave, in the Resurrection? As for the 5 forms taken by the Grail, one of them might be the Seat, Galahad's "Siege Perilous", which only the perfectly pure-of-heart can sit in without injury or death. And the Seat, of course, is also the Virgin Mary, who is called in the Litany of Loretto the Sedes Sapentiae, the Seat of Wisdom. The Virgin Mary, as Theotokos, IS the Seat or Throne of Wisdom, which is Christ. The Grail, therefore, has to do with the lesser or feminine mysteries by which we regain the primordial or Adamic human form, the purified and integrated psychophysical vehicle, symbolized in alchemy by the Philosopher's Stone (another form of the Grail, one that also suggests Christ as "the stone the builders rejected"), which is capable of hosting, without madness or destruction, the quintessential Presence of God. Rene Guenon associated the lesser mysteries with the kshatriya or warrior caste and the ethos of Courtly Love, which is certainly in line with the Grail romances, and the greater or liturgical mysteries with the Brahmin or priestly caste. The lesser mysteries, though they necessarily take place under Divine guidance, are still in part accomplished by human labor and exploit --- by "works" --- while the greater mysteries, the mysteries of Grace, are accomplished by God alone. But of all the Grail romances, I have always believed that the most complete is the Parzival of Wolfram von Eschenbach, since it presents the entire Magnum Opus, not only the internal union and integration of all the human faculties, but the union of Inner and Outer worlds. As for the Grail as a Bell, the same mythologem is found in Vajrayana Buddhism, where the Vajra, Dorje, or Thunderbolt symbolizes the masculine principle, the principle of "means" or "works," while the Bell represents pre-existing and eternal Wisdom, the feminine principle, personified as Arya Prajnaparamita, "Lady Highest Perfect Wisdom" --- Hagia Sophia precisely. The sexual symbolism here is the reverse of Guenon's identification of works with the lesser feminine mysteries and Grace with the greater masculine ones, though his attributions are certainly in line with Tantric Hinduism, where the Absolute Witness (Atman, Purusha, Shiva) is masculine, while his Power, or the ensemble of the Divine Energies, is feminine (Maya, Prakriti, Shakti). But the Vajrayana perspective, at least in terms of sexual symbolism as applied to Grace and World, Wisdom and Means, is entirely consonant with the Courtly Love tradition, the doctrine and practice of the Fedeli d'Amore, where the Knight (like Dante in the Commedia) represents effort and struggle, while the Lady (Beatrice) simply IS. The Knight in the Grail romances is incomplete, full of needs, in need of purification, while the Lady, as Holy Wisdom, is already complete in herself. And so, speaking in Aristotelian terms, we could say that the Lady is Forma and the Knight is Potentia; thus the goal of the Way of Courtly Love is the actualization of potential, the achievement of Substantial Form. (Etc., etc.)
If it's supposed to be fixed and immovable, why is it called "alter" ? (that pun probably works better out loud than in writing 😅 )
Altar.
@@zoejay yes, thank you, my point exactly. 👍
Wo ist der Gral ?
So Richard believes “The Secret History”?
The Holy Grail is not a cup or anything g that is material that can heal sicknesss
The old intro music was better and more energetic
I think the thing that was lost was the reality that didn’t manifest. Jesus said, these things I do, you will do and greater... but who has come close. That was the promise and whatever teachings he gave that would have enabled it to come true have been lost or locked away by the powerful. The ‘unworthy’ are not allowed to know the power of this greatest of relics, so Lancelot falls back into his old ways and the fellowship is broken.
In the first 1,000 years of the undivided Church, the saints did do the things that Christ did and greater things - healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, preaching the Gospel far and wide, smashing the idols and overthrowing the tyranny of the false gods. These things continued in the Orthodox east. It is only in the West that they ceased, because the West left the Church and went into heresy and schism.
England was the medieval California? Woah.
Maybe the holy grail is irrelevant, Do the orthodox Christian’s believe an object can be sacred, isn’t it just a matter of the heart