Douglas Murray and Jonathan Pageau | EP 290
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- čas přidán 8. 05. 2024
- Jonathan Pageau, Douglas Murray, and Dr Jordan B Peterson discuss our hierarchies of perception, existence, faith, and whether meaning is a self evident truth or something intangible that is sought in vain.
Jonathan Pageau is a French-Canadian liturgical artist and icon carver, known for his work featured in museums across the world. He carves Eastern Orthodox and other traditional images, and teaches an online carving class. He also runs a CZcams channel dedicated to the exploration of symbolism across history and religion.
Douglas Murray is a British political commentator and author. In 2007 he founded a think tank called the Center for Social Cohesion, which later became part of the Henry Jackson Society. Currently he is an associate editor for the magazine the Spectator, where he became somewhat infamous after organizing a competition in which entrants were invited to submit offensive poems about Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, with a top prize of £1,000. He has authored five books, the most recent of which being “The War on the West.”
Dr Peterson's extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+: utm.io/ueSXh
-Links-
For Douglass Murray:
Website: douglasmurray.net/
(Book) The War on the West: www.amazon.com/War-West-Dougl...
(Book) The Strange Death of Europe: www.amazon.com/Strange-Death-...
For Jonathan Pageau:
Icon Carving: www.pageaucarvings.com
Podcast: www.thesymbolicworld.com
CZcams Channel: / jonathanpageau
-Chapters-
(0:00) Coming Up
(1:10) Intro
(4:18) A Precondition for a Rational World View
(10:29) The Battle of Conceptions
(14:55) Perceived Unity and the Glass
(21:58) Do Science and Religion Overlap?
(29:41) The Hierarchy of Perception and Action
(38:45) The Bible Was Not Written Forensically
(48:25) Using the Least Possible Thing to Describe the Realness of Everything
(57:07) Are We Meaning-Seeking Beings, or is There Meaning?
(1:05:56) To What Degree Does Something Exist Prior to Elaboration?
(1:12:04) The Cause of Demoralization in Our Society
(1:17:58) The Advantage of Organized Religion
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Peterson, Murray AND Pagaue???!! We are blessed!! 🙏✝️
I was thinking the exact same thing. We are extremely blessed to live in such wonderful times. It's easy to think otherwise but if we truly listen to those who are the wisest amongst us we will know that these are the best times to be alive. 🙏
A great trio
Pageau
☦️
When you see Jonathan looking around, listening and talking, you can see how much he enjoys these talks. Murray gives the challenge and Jordan is in heaven. We are truly privileged to witness this conversation.
@@bartonlee3594 that is extraordinary since he referred to a book written in 2022 in the video. Time travel perhaps? "Fled" is not what you do by driving to an airport and sitting on a flight. Your multiple comments about "Russia" and "addiction" would indicate obsession. Get help for yourself.
The aesthetics of this video are on point whoever was in charge of that ✨🙌
@@bartonlee3594 now this is a false narrative 😅😅
@@bartonlee3594 So he can't have problems or what lmao ,
@@bartonlee3594 the comment you are replying to is about Jonathan Pageau. Who is this “he” you refer to? There has been zero discussion about drug addiction in these comments nor in the video until you bring it up… makes me wonder as to who is this “he” you are referring to? Happy politicking.
As a lifelong atheist/agnostic raised in the presbyterian church, it wasn’t until a very close family member who was Antiochian orthodox just recently passed away that I started to feel my inner architecture shift towards some longing curiosity towards orthodoxy. For whatever reason, talks like this one and others involving Jonathan Pageau have completely blown me wide-open, kicked down the doors and started remodeling my inner architecture. I’ve never been this kind of person at all, but I found myself weeping tears of joy/relief on my commute to work this morning as I listen to this. Thank you, gentlemen. Now starts my real work.
Amazing❤ Glory to God!! Orthodoxy is the one and true church of Christ. ❤
Welcome brother
Why were you an Atheist in the first place, with respect it can’t have been because of your critical thinking skills so I’m interesting how you ended up in that position.
☦
Shed a tear myself near the end and though of the oddity of it. The conversation was beautiful art imho.
50 years as a Christian…and It’s insane to me that this is the best sermon I’ve ever heard!
Amen.
That's weird.
That's CZcams.
@@thedeifiedjulius2310 can you elaborate ?
@@vinegarpisser2992 He's using a term popularly talked about with Neitzche. He's basically saying he was a christian for 50 years and regrets it. That its teachings produces a kind of hatred of the self, hence the "ressentinent morality" term. Envy and hatred producing a "self-abasement" behavior.
Keep getting Jonathan talking to all these new people. He's the best.
Check out his talk with Dr Ian mcgillchrist and thank me later.
@@thebigredwagon That was VG+ interview 👍
@Sen Dog probably fair to say that is one aspect/feature of God…and not a description of him.
@Sen Dog would you consider yourself a Christian? (I’m not claiming you’re not. as a Christian I’ve just never understood it that way as it seems to limit God because he is also beyond all being and ultimately ineffable)
@Sen Dog I’m not one to school anyone, I’m a seeker as well. , was more just curious the perspective you were coming at it from because I hadn’t heard Christian folks describe God in that way (although pageau does use similar descriptors at times but would say still different enough that this sounded unique)
As a minister for over 12 years, in a time where one's efforts seem questionable, this conversation brought great reassurance to the value of my chosen pursuits and profession. Thank you.
Yes but to what end? As you say minister I suppose you are of a Protestant denomination
@alex flood I would love to hear your (a minister’s) response to this video clip below. Thx in advance ❤️
The “Anti-Christ” was never some mysterious man who was to rise to power deceiving everyone, but rather the “liberal fantasy” embodied as the “institution,” wearing the mask of care and presuming to do for people what we can do for each other - “love thy neighbor”.
czcams.com/video/jsW8UQgFOBI/video.html
Is the resurrection literal?
@@heads_together_crypto2422 without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Plenty of eyewitnesses accounts to corroborate this claim. Many of the eyewitnesses chose to give up their lives at the hand of the Romans instead of denying what they saw.
@@heads_together_crypto2422 very
Great talk. Douglas is not only a sharp & eloquent peer, but also astoundlingly thoughtful, adaptive & creative. His closing monologue is ridiculously powerful.
This is in all honesty the best and highest level of discussion on multiple levels that I heard in my entire Life.
Thank you Jordan, Jonathan and Douglas! You have my absolute respect 🙏
The way Jordan recognizes and respects Jonathan's wisdom is so beautiful to watch. Douglas was a brilliant guest and posed all the right questions.
You mean the way he cuts Jonathan off constantly and proceeds to talk just to hear himself talk? lol
They are all rhetoricians, obviously. Nothing they said is even the accepted creed and doctrine of single church in the world. They are just trying to invent a religious metaphysical basis for the current Christian conservative worldview, which they all like and admire for its outcomes and not for its beliefs.
Basically, at best jordan peterson is ready to call all religious stories as mere stories written by ancient hebrew psychologists who somehow knew jungian psychoanalysis.
None of them is a true christian, you know it, I know it(Even though I am a muslim) and every christian theologian of every church knows it.
They have good intentions in the sense that they want to save people from nihilism and skepticism that comes from modernity. But their attempt is not genuine nor true. Nobody believes in religion for rational reasons, no matter how much jordan peterson tries to REINVENT AND REINTERPRET AND REVISIT religion. Religious belief doesn't start from rationality nor rationalizations.
Nobody will stop having intercourse before marriage or outside marriage because of "the weird fictional true" rationalization forbids it. People do that only if the hell and heaven are true, so true that the fear of hell and the want of heaven should direct your actions.
The miracles of prophet jesus (PBUH) were not stories mr. jordan peterson, if they were stories, the belief in them becomes optional.
If all religion is PRAGMATIC AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY useful fictions, then why should it have authority ? Why can't everyone be free to make his own fictions, which might be more pragmatic and psychologically useful ?
If the pragmatic and psychologically useful fictions of a social justice/mystic leftist group provides them more moral certainty and lessens then existential angst, then why should they believe in your rationalizations ?
And then there is more to say about psychoanalytic justifications for your beliefs. Psychoanalysis is in itself a pseudo-scientific endeavor and is just a reading of effects of cultural/social/material life on human thinking, not a discovery of true human nature.
You cannot erect your new religion from a pseudoscience.
The Christianity of st. Augustin, st. peter, st. thomas aquinas and martin luther king is THE CHRISTIANITY. What you people are doing is just making a new religion out of thin air for "pragmatic" reasons. And trying to become NEW PROPHETS OF IT.
The virgin birth is true, in literal sense, and I bear witness to its truth.
@@saimbhat6243 you’re envy is showing.
@@JIMMYUNKNOWN See, your personal attacks don't convey much.
@@saimbhat6243 funny I was going to say the same about yours, despite the sheep’s clothing.
Getting married this weekend and baptized into the Orthodox Church this Pascha. God willing. Thank you so much gentleman. I was on a very very dark path. Redemption is very real to me now thanks to these holy ideas. I have nothing but love and admiration for you men and all your difficult and courageous work. Please keep moving forward with zeal.
What was so dark, if I (we) may ask? And how did you come to Christ? Just learning! ;-)
Good on you bro! Always great to hear people on a good path.
Congratulations on your marriage and journey of faith.
My priest was pointing out how differently Orthodox define “faith” this past Sunday, and it’s an insight that Murray really needs to ponder.
Blessings, brother. May your marriage be a truly holy union.
I feel like I'm starving in my doctoral program and you three, with your fascinating discussions, makes my brain feel actually engaged, fed, and excited. Excellent discussion, all of you! Lovely to see different points of view coming together to discuss such tough and fascinating ideas.
I feel the exact same way! Thanks for your comment, I feel a little less alone ;)
What a sad commentary it is that you are in a doctoral program, yet starving for intellectual stimulation. This is why Frank Zappa said, if you want an education, go to the library. If you want to get laid, go to college.
Yup sounds like a typical university
We live in amazing and confusing times, when we pay big $$$ for a piece of paper that doesn’t necessarily provide what we thought it represented, but we can find world class discussions of serious topic for free.
My three ABSOLUTE FAVORITE speakers... it was a joy.
I can sit and listen to Jordan Peterson all day long. I truly believe he will go down in history as one of the most important Men of our time. God bless you Jordan, and your wonderful family. 🙏👁️
Listen up, sunshine... turn off the tube and go clean your room!
@Ben C I am currently listening to this while working. Your argument is invalid.
@@malvolio01 Will do. Just finished laundry, got the rhoomba out suckering and got the dishes lined up next.
I like all of these people, such a panel.. But they're wrong about proving The Bible.. PROPHECY PROVES THE BIBLE
@@malvolio01 I just finished trimming a rose bush and tree in the front yard. Fixed a flat tire on an old car and cooked lunch for my wife. Anything else you'd like to order me to do?
It’s incredible to me that Dr. Peterson looks even better now than he did before he was sick. Truly incredible.
🙏
Money and knowledge
Because he's a Boss.
Lil help: sick with what?
Stop eating excessive sugars, grains, seeds, and leaves. Our gut isn’t adapted for the exuberant amount of indigestible plant matter the world at large would have you believe is healthy.
A terrific episode - I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Jordan as always insightful and deep, Douglas Murray razor-sharp & very wise. Jonathan P., relatively new to me, yet a thoughtful man with astute contributions. Thank you gentlemen 🌱
This is just brilliant. Thank you gentlemen. I have been losing my faith of late and this thoughtful conversation amongst three incredible people may be restoring much more than that in me
I came to believe in God about a year ago.
It became clear to me that humans have always been searching for truth, and that truth always seems to point toward goodness.
John 8:32, John 14:6, psalm 51:6,
John 1:1....
All these speak to our desire to know the Truth, which I believe to be the fundamental aspect of humanity. One either seeks the truth, or avoids it all costs, those that seek the truth are humble, practice kindness, and see the obviousness that there is some kind of spiritual force for good. Those who avoid truth, tend to be self-centered, callous, and cold.
I came to realize that one believes in Goodness, or God, or one is evil...or inspired by the devil
Why lose Faith? I believe God formed the Universe through Naturalist means. I love God and I accept Science.
I think there's nothing contrary to faith by doubting or losing it in part, or even altogether. The true ongoing struggle is essential to the gradual deepening of faith (as opposed to "prelest"), including even simply the desire for it. The rejecting of it, as we engage with the world that too often destabilizes us and creates doubt within us, is quite frequently temporary. Hopefully, when we return to our faith again, we rediscover that this is where the light (the "uncreated light") actually resides alongside truth. To have faith, and then believe or be convinced that one is safely, easily, and permanently "locked in" to an unassailable place, that is, to a strictly intellectual, rational, relationship with the transcendent that can never be doubted or assailed or deconstructed is the mistake and the illusion. The transcendent exists. Christ is the perfection we seek but can never completely reach, which doesn't invalidate the necessity of the ongoing struggle toward him. ☦
It's a blessing that we are able to listen to great conversations like this.
Agreeed
listening to their point of views about education; coming from someone that's not educated, or have good knowledge, makes me feel bad as person cause l'm doing cleaning a job, and l'm not educating myself...but off topic, but, l'm blessed as well man
@Sen Dog well said
@@lukehart7225 you are participating where you are- much more intelligent than those educated and doing nothing with it.
@Sen Dog ---How do you know that good art discovers patterns beyond the physical. What does that even mean? Show me something that is "beyond physical". What evidence do you have apart from saying that art discovers it? Then you come up with some new definition for God that I've never heard of and finally you give us some false dichotomy by giving us a choice between two made up concepts. Sorry, but what a word salad this is.
Douglass was a perfect choice, very good with expressing ideas! And he asks the best questions 👍🏻 another round of these three together would be great!
Did you notice, first he asks "Is Chritianity exhausted force or unexhausted force" and quite soon after that says "one of the revolutions of Christian tradition is that everybody has an intrinsic value"? Can't we derive from the two statements: "Is the idea of people having intrinsic value an exhausted force or not?"
I don't know why, but I misspelled the word "intrinsic value" repeatedly "intrinsic meaning". Intrinsic meaning feels to hint at action more than intrinsic value, later feels to imply to something static.
Some branches of Judaism see people as co-creators of the world. That line of thinking offers intrinsic meaning as well as value.
I could listen to these 3 talk for days. What a great conversation.
Thank you all three for a brilliant discussion. I learn more about myself listening to you all.
Jonathan is clearly a genius. I know a lot of people might see him as a third wheel in some sense. To me, he has my full respect. He is thinking well beyond what most people give him credit for. Jonathan, if you see this I want you to know, I see you brother. “Fractals”
@@Nah_Bohdi I don't know that he is a scholar. I don't think Jonathan would consider himself that. He is an Icon carver. An artist. An Orthodox Christian. A wonderful partner and conduit in these kinds of conversations.
@@triscat Yes, Jonathan is indeed very attentive. Which is why I would strongly agree with you, he is a fantastic conversationalist.
I would suggest that Jordan is lucky to have come across Jonathan! I really do believe that Jonathan is helping him!! I believed that from the very beginning they were in touch!
@@Nah_Bohdi You must not know his background. His bachelor's degree is in art, and he has no academic degree in religion or theology. He's well-read but definitely not a scholar. And his perspective is different from JBP's in many important ways.
He's not a genius, he's an artist in the true sense of the word. He has the same kind of brain and education as me. He sees very far and deeply into things and he makes conncections and recognises patterns that others don't see but he struggles with the details. And then his knowledge of Orthodoxy provides his style of thinking and perceiving with a rich and solid foundation.
JP is the only person that makes me feel more intelligent and more stupid at the same time.
very good description!
I think that’s the definition of a great teacher.
Which JP?
That means it's working!
@@DerekJFiedler Jordan Pageau
I have listened to this 3 times already and I get something new each time. Thank you for having this discussion! ❤
3rd listen
So powerful....thank you gents for doing what you do so beautifully! And a little pause here and there to let the PHENOMENOLOGICAL IMPACT settle in would help take these conversations to the next level. Thank you Thank you.....
Thank you to the three of you. Wonderful conversation. So grateful to live in a time that I can listen to intelligent educated men at my leisure.
@Sen Dog religion is delusion.
Douglas Murray, the Eastern Orthodox Church, of which Jonathan Pageau is a member, has not abandoned any of the things you mentioned ie. the cherubims, liturgies, angels, Virgin Mary (Theotokos) etc you wished had not been abandoned. Beautiful and fulfilling talk. Thanks to all three gentlemen.
Murray should try playing Saint Edward the Confessor, the last Orthodox King of England, in a dramatization. He could really explore what it was like to be such a man in such a liturgical world.
@@eldermillennial8330 Brilliant idea, actually
@@eldermillennial8330 orthodox king of england?
The Catholic Church has not abandoned any of those things either. They have downplayed them and paid a big price for it, but they are not gone and are re-emerging. Bishop Barron speaks to this. Catholicism and Orthodoxy need to be allies right now.
@@Thesteadfast true but the Papal Catholic Church needs to abandon that papacy and unite back with the Orthodox Church
I've been catching more and more of Douglas Murray (on Pierce Morgan usually), and I like what I hear out of him. I don't agree with him on many things, but I appreciate his practical approach. "We have to get down to brass tacks…" in the midst of an interesting but esoteric/abstract conversation on "fiction" and mythic archetypes. Very good conversation.
I’ve listen to this five times I keep reverting back to it because it is such a powerful conversation. May I suggest a part two between the three of you gentlemen sometime in the future. Thank you again all of you for your work and your light in the dark.
Douglas Murray, possibly the greates guest of all time for this podcast.
With his manners you could cut out the last three words honestly. :D
Jordan laying out the general lessons to be learned (or some of them) from the Bible is just awesome to listen. He's like Beethoven with words; very pleasing to listen to.
Yes. He is the Beethoven of truthful speach.
Just don't get him started on Pinocchio...and DEFINITELY don't tell him about the remake!
@@somedandy7694 So true! How do we hide the remake info from Jordan? He is going to flip when he finds what they did to it
I wish I knew all he knows and could communicate half as well.
@Sen Dog This line belongs in an epic anime battle.
Absolutely beautiful. Yes, we should do this again. Brilliant, gentlemen. Thank you.
Thank you. This was amazing synchronicity ~ covering so many areas I’ve been considering this week.
Jonathan is such a beautiful person. Brilliant to hear Douglas in dialogue like this. Very inspiring indeed.
In a world full of disarray, disagreement, and distress, this conversation is an oasis for this soul.
3 deep thinkers with different world views, discussing the most core existential questions of life, while maintaining respect and being of equal conversational reciprocity. If conversations like this became commonplace, mankind's progression would be much more meaningful than just simple expansion and "advancement".
Without these core meanings, every other pursuit of mankind will be unsustainable.
Bravo to these gentlemen 🙏
It's the work OF the values allowing them to do so.
It's the fruit picked directly from the vine.
*and offered to the other
The general human population isn't smart enough for that.
Well said
I love finding that one comment that speaks for me too. 👍
When I hear this talk, I realize how accurate it is to see JBP as the great seeker. My hope is that by the end of this decade Canada 🍁 will have a different government and, probably over his objections, nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize in Humanities. This superstar will be honored for his contribution to a better human condition. We have all benefited. ❤
Justin Timberfake has got to go
@@axidhaus lol are purposefully using the wrong name??
@@okami425 Not sure if you misunderstood, but I'm pretty sure that it's a barely disguised derogatory name for Justin Trudeau, not a criticism leveled against any of the men in this video.
@@okami425Justin Turdeau
I agree, once the PC party loses Poilievre on or before the end of this decade we will be in a better position to have a change in government. In the mean time it looks like the Liberals will likely win the next election in 2025 and govern until 2029. Let's hope by that time that a good Conservation leader comes forward.
Three of the greatest Western intellectuals of our era. It's a great privilege to be able to listen to this discussion.
What a great conversation! Thank you so much. Your podcast keeps me going and makes me enjoy my boring tasks and commutes.
I love seeing older men so engaged with the big questions. There is something so deeply reassuring about older men who have not lost their vitality, who continue to leap with their faith toward truth and beauty.
O the innocence of youth
@A.T. I'm 30. These men are all older than me. Hence why I referred to them as "older men" and not "old men".
@A.T. Jordan Peterson is 60. That's 10 years away from 70. Would you say he is an older man or not?
I see Douglas Murray, I click.
Ikr! He doesn’t do nearly enough interviews to suit me
Thank you for this invaluable discussion! I got very deep realizations from it like faith as an antidote to resentment (JBP); a very clarifying concept of art as a participatory experience beyond irony and satire (JP); and DM's assessment on Andy Warhol's only ability to pose questions. As a fine artist, I am profoundly aware of the state of our culture from watching how art became just non-transcendent and uninspiring objects of consumption for the individual totally disconnected of the communal purpose. I'm looking forward to the next conversation. Thank you again.
Just want to say thank you to all that made this talk happen. Past and present. I am now closer to my true self and better in and for this world because of it. Thanks again, Rob
The practice of belief is less like practicing for athletic excellence and more like living out your love for others with actions that strive towards their best good. The thing Jordan keeps missing is that the object of our love/worship/practice is REAL. He made us for real, mutual relationship with Him. It's not just an aiming to a theoretical Best and Highest. The best and highest is a real, living Being who loves us.
I see so much of this type of discussion where philosphers, writers, cultural commentators try to make sense of the current chaos in the world and in society, and openly admit that it is evidently a consequence of removing God and religion from society (as they discuss here), and yet, as Douglas Murray puts it, they get 99% of the way there, but can't reconcile that last 1%, which is essentially 100%. I hope they eventually manage to take that last "leap of faith".
Well said.
Gotta love Douglas Murray and his clarity to define.
I find Murray to be more clever than profound. Pageau I is the deeper thinker.
@@richardkuyper300 I tend to agree with you except it's disappointing, for me in any case, that Pageau doesn't effectively communicate the more orthodox concerns of the Eastern Church in this episode. And this coming from a working artist of Eastern Icons, and whose brother has wriiten a great book on the symbolism of Genesis. Murray is the cleverer and more effective speaker here IMO. As an Anglican, he has a keen view on symbolism. Note how he goes into Poets around 1:09. Poetry is the closest we come to understanding the Transcendent. Nothing however beats the actual practice of Contemplative Prayer.
Perhaps the greatest summary of the Pageau, Peterson, Veravaeke discussion to date, at time of posting. So powerful.
I go to church because it gives me a sense of calm and peace, listening to the word gives me a sense of security and sanity. Having a church community, helps me grow, keeps me grounded, accountable for my actions, and incentivizes me to be a better person. Learning good morals, discipline and how to live a better life it’s why I am part of a church and follow tradition, I believe this is very important for everyone so that we stay away from depression and the psychologists. I am grateful to God for this 🙏🏻🙌🏻
Our three Wise Men for the post modern age. The arc of the Star in the heavens still points the way. What a blessing to listen to these men weave their words and wisdom.
Hear hear! Beautifully written comment.
@@Nah_Bohdi uh what??
@@countdooku75 In the days immediately following HM Queen Elisabeth II's death, there were sightings and videos of what was suspected to be a meteorite streaking across the sky as it burned up on entry to the atmosphere. I'm guessing that's what @Nah Bohdi was referring to, but could be wrong.
Jordan.. you are a blessing to the world. An enlightened thinker shining light through a dark time
I love how Peterson and Pageau slowly scooted closer on the couch over the course of the conversation haha
Its like the love Jesus had for his deciples.
Jordan did not Pageau. I noticed that too but I didn’t think it was worth commenting on.
Douglas Murray is brilliant. My first time listening to him, I am finding in myself realizations and self-awareness that I have not yet come across before.
You must be joking; he’s a pompous ignoramus
Always excited to see Murray on anyone’s show.
Me too!!!! Same with Greg Lukianoff as well
I am completely overwhelmed by this conversation, in a great way! God bless you three men!♥️♥️♥️
Food for my soul. Well done gentleman. thank you for a spiritual feast!
Jordan please keep doing live events if you can, I am in the UK and want see you in person, it would mean the world - currently I'm poor, but going to do everything I can to see and watch you live. Thank you for everything that you have done and continue to do.
this needed to be 3+ hours long!
God bless all of you gentleman. thank you for enlightening and entertaining us.
Douglas Murray presented keen insight throughout. Please have him back on.
These 3 resonate in a perfect harmony. An amazing discussion !
Their willingness to explore the questions that most would run from was enlightnening.Thank you.
Douglas brought this together beautifully with his final words. That was a wonderful close to a wonderful conversation. Thanks guys.
@@hairypawter8475 BAD BOT
@@hairypawter8475 Say what?
@@hairypawter8475 lmfao indeed. Dude calls himself a christian atheist and is gay. What is this sorcery? Was it really the wrong part who lost ww2?
This is such a beautiful conversation. I think the “leap” Jordan and Douglas struggle with is actually having a RELATIONSHIP with the transcendent/divine. It’s not simply about believing, but embodying as Jonathan (and the church) says. If you remain in the sphere of “fiction” and “ethical systems,” you are like an actor that can only study and appreciate acting, but cannot walk out on stage and actually take your part in the play.
Great comment. Something I'm encountering now. I've always believed but haven't sufficiently stepped on to the stage.
Agreed, as I similarly commented above. I love listening to this kind of discussion, but in the end, it's not something that can be rationalised, or arrived at by mental gymnastics.
Somewhat ironically, they discuss how the (or a) divine or "meta-being" must necessarily exist for anything else to make sense, in order to make any sort of value judgment, and to derive order from the chaos of our universe, but this seems to miss the obvious (to me) conclusion that solely rational thought cannot allow us to comprehend a divine being in a different plane of existence.
They are still blinded by their intellect. Faith is much more than a subject one can study in school. In fact the more ‘knowledge’ one has, the harder or further away from the absolute truth they are obtaining
Embody like Mother Teresa who didn't believe in medicine or birth control and thought suffering was a way to heaven? Like that? Pft.
@Emma Shalliker Claims like that against St. Theresa have been debunked. Cynical people try to tarnish the legacy of good people. Also, Jordan Peterson advocates very strongly for facing suffering as a path to self-improvement. There is a huge difference between telling people to suffer and acknowledging that it is inevitable and the way you face it matters.
Thankyou to these three brilliant men for this.
This conversation was for me one of the most inspiring from you Jordan! (and I have listen to a lot) The combination of the three of you is a perfect match! When Pagaue is talking beautifuly about mysteries of life, Douglas can bring the conversation down to earth in such a interseting way. Can't wait for the next one!
PogO*
You can see and feel the passion in the conversation. Brilliant stuff. Thank you!
Wouldn't be surprised if Jordan and Jonathan become two of the greatest intellectuals of the 21st century.
Our Tolkien and Lewis
„What rules, you sons of bitches?“ „Up yours, woke moralists! We‘ll see who cancels who!“ Truly one of the minds of our time
He’s one of the most idiotic intellectuals of our time, that’s for sure.
@@famatu And of course you will back that up with evidence? Or do you just feel like he is so it must be true
@@famatu so you get your take of him based on meme clips. Says alot about your attention span...
I love it when JP talks,it makes you really wanna listen and I'm a bad listener,I got bored really quick and my attention is easily distracted,so I like this about him,somehow he can make you listen without you noticing it,and I ended up finishing the whole video and learning a lot,so thank you for that sir!
The best conversation i have ever heard. Thankyou gentle wise men
The reason why fictional classics resonate so clearly and eternally is because there is something in it that reflects the Truth God created us to need to understand. The more clearly it reflects this, the more timeless and satisfying it feels to us
Easily the best conversation on the internet. What a joy to have this pocket of those still reaching for the divine despite the madness of the modern world. May Christ bless us all.
Blown away at this conversation. Thank you.
I’m always so grateful that I can be privy to these incredible conversations. I’m also amazed that I can follow them most of the time!
Really looking forward to “We who wrestle with God”
- Jacob…
This man is producing more crossovers than Marvel could ever dream of.
Listening to this conversation with echoes of the Orthodox Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's lectures on Personhood, the Jesus prayer etc.... still in my ears - this is holding me so firmly in the Christian faith. Unimaginable bliss.....
Please do this again. What an excellent talk. Thank you!
Thank you gentlemen.
Pageau deserves so much more attention.
I do find all of life to be circling around a drain hole but each orbit I call out to Christ. Praying for you.
"Like the Big bang for instance??"
Almost had a public coffee spitting incident.. Thanks for that johnathan because you said what I was thinking!!! Love this interaction.. We need SOOOOOO much more of this!!!💚💚💚
Ditto
Yea i liked that.
Difference being anyone who "believes" the big bang theory would drop it if a more concrete explanation was discovered. Jonathan would still think the world was created 6,000 years ago.
@@tornasukiii745 and if something could do a better job of what religion does, in jonathan's mind, then he would drop it. ps suddenly making Jonathan a literalist where he is not is lazy.
@@tornasukiii745 I don’t think he’s ever said that he argues for a creationist interpretation of how old the universe is
Since partnering with the Daily Wire, the production and aesthetics with your videos have been second to none Jordan. Very much excited to see what potential you have in the years to come with the full support of DW to realize your vision and have fascinating conversations.
What an excellent conversation "What will survive of us is love" wow
You got me to go back to church (and read the incredible Brothers Karamazov). Your insights and commentary have been instrumental in me rediscovering faith and reflecting on the truly meaningful things in life. All I can say is God bless you gentlemen!
👏👏👏ENCORE! ❤❤❤ WOW WOW WOW I thank God for these three gentlemen. That I am privelidged enough to witness this conversation is truly CZcams at its best. Thank you gentlemen I will be listening agaim and again to this conversation for some time to come.
This is, without hyperbole, the ONLY conversation I’m interested in. Bless them.
This is a great conversation... but i'd rather listen to "Pass me not, oh gentle Savior"
What?
@@jakeschwartz2514 what?
This conversation is literally awesome; it put my hairs on end!
This is the best debate on human nature and the divine that I've ever seen,by far and im strengthened in my faith for having seen this
Jordan and douglas. Two of my heroes. Well done!
Aren't we all so privileged to listen to conversations like this for free!
A privilege to be able to hear such experience & insight shared..
I feel like this conversation fueled my heart, brain and soul.
Jordan Peterson is so wise he tells you what you already know, before you realize you’ve known it all along.
As a matter of fact, he has articulate many things I believed to be true, or rather, ideas I was starting to develop and think through.
@@adampindell absolutely same here sir !
Ironically, this comment did exactly the same thing lol
Sorry, not beautiful
Yes, he’s brilliant!
This made an hour and half feel as if it were but a moment. Thanks for the excellent dialogue!
Jordan, the way I see it is that the only thing more real than pain would be love. Suffering and real pain can be dealt with most readily by the use of real love. What intriguing conversations you have. Fantastic and thank you.
Matt Kanczes
Thank you so much Prof Peterson and your Guests! I think I understand why they are two of your favourite people😀
This is amazing podcast. Thank you very much. One of the best.
I absolutely love these conversations.
That’s the second time I’ve listened to this conversation. I love you guys! It was so damn interesting! Thank you!
One of the most mature and intelligent conversations I've heard. Especially around the resurrection of Christ. Well done to all.
Beautiful conversation. Thank you Douglas Murray for the questions I wish I was smart enough to ask.
“Fairy tales are MORE than true. Not because they tell us dragons exist. But because they tell us dragons can be beaten” ~G.K. Chesterton
Thank you Jonathan for finally answering Douglas Murray’s question.
Have listened to both of you on here and truly love your dedication to the truth and your content. Breaking it down is necessary for today's society.
We live in our own little world and have very little understanding of the world at large. If we started to critically think through the " fog", we as a people would transcend our biased belief.
That would truly be a miracle!:)
We speak of gratitude. I am grateful to be able to listen and watch this on my computer and think about faith and truth and how to get to a higher place.
This is the trifecta of guests! I respect Pageau and Murray greatly! Excellent podcast! Thank you
Great conversation. Great questions from Douglas.
Thank you, gentlemen for your conversation. I am intrigued by the segment of the conversation which offered the alternative to the pain and suffering in the world. Love was the general agreed upon answer--which is truly a powerful response; but what about hope? It seems to me that part of the greater message of the resurrection narrative of Christianity is the pointing to a great reversal of pain, suffering, and evil, i.e. hope. Thank you again for this.