Why Mace Did NOT Defeat Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- Twitter: @SWReadingClub
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The Non-Canon Expert describes why Jedi Master Mace Windu did not defeat Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith and explains the greater underlying events for why the duel happened the way it did.
Because he had UNNNLIIIIMITEEDDD POWAAAAAA!!!!!
Haha, now this made me laugh! Have to love Sidious in that moment.
Star Wars Reading Club didn't even think you'd reply to this 😂
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
George Lucas(THE WRITER) Already put this subject to rest a long time ago! lol Mace Windu TEABAGGED Palatine. Deal with it. hahaha
so Lucas says he beat him but people still don't accept it.
Lucas's exact quote was "overpowered him" wasn't it? That still leaves it somewhat open to interpretation. Also, Lucas's word shouldn't be considered law, he isn't exactly known for his decision making skills.
I'll consider it law. Because he, you know, wrote the story.
If he said something that was factually contradicting to the story, would you still consider his word as law?
As creator technically nothing he could say about it could be incorrect factually if he so desired. The onus would be on him, as a storyteller, to explain an apparent contradiction though he is under no obligation to do so.
This isn't one of those times though. Sidious knew he had to lose. To risk himself and his plan. It would be the only way to garner Anakin as his apprentice. He'd foreseen this, undoubtedly. It was his great gift after all.
anikin3562 well the fact is he created the story and in the movie he decided that mace overpowered him before they even made it. George was just clarifying that mace beat sidious
Because he got blasted out the Windu
Hi everyone! This is one of my favourite topics for discussion and speculation in the entire Prequel Trilogy. I would love to hear what your opinions are on who won and I hope that you enjoy the video.
You sound a lot like Stupendous Wave to me.
you r such a good youtuber and deserve 100 mil subs
My thoughts are that Lucas himself said Mace won. lol. Enjoyed the video anyway!
blargin1234
If that's directed my way, his argument may be solid and with all the points in the world backing it up. At the end of the day, George Lucas, the guy that wrote the story, that scene included, stated very clearly in several interviews that Mace Windu won the fight. And as much as I appreciate the channel and the thought put into each video, if the creator of Star Wars says "Mace won the fight." Then I'm with him on the topic lol.
People can say what they want about the prequels, however we see more Palpatine and as such he isn't just a lightening throwing old fart that sits around barking orders, we see some of his machinations and that of the Sith, and he can lay the smack down when he has to, in fact due to this, the Darth Plagueis novel, Tarkin and Lords of The Sith, I have a deeper appreciation of the character
Look at the way Palpatine behaves. He crawls into the corner like a coward. It's all part of his plan. I'm sure he didn't account on being disfigured but he did expect Anakin to intervene since he orchestrated things to lead up to that
Filip Gievski I think Palpatine more feared being the one who failed the Sith's grand plan. Look at his reaction when Mace said he lost.
F Gievski
Darth Sidious' face wasn't actually scarred. His knowledge of the Force was so great that he was able to effectively prevent his appearance from being corrupted, by the Dark Side of the Force. During his confronation with Mace Windu, however his own rebounding Force-lightning ( the primary use of his power ) revealed his true corrupted face.
Darth Sidious: "So the mask becomes the man. I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think, but for our purpose, the face of Sidious will serve. Yes, it will serve"-Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith novelization.
While the Force has twisted his face, it has also sustained him, beyond his years and even his old age, the Emperor remains a figure of terrible power-Star Wars: The Complete Visual Dictionary.
Palpatine fires
Force-lightning at his opponent, who reflects the
dark-energy back at the Sith, revealing his true evil nature-Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know.
Thank you for all of the great comments and for joining in on the discussion, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. I would just quickly mention that I also had a few parts regarding Mace's Vaapad style and also how his ability to find Shatterpoints impacted and played out in the duel, but they would have been roughly 5 minutes each and made an already long video even longer, pushing it over 20 minutes. If you'd like, I could discuss those aspects in another video, or we can continue to discuss them in the comments.
Thank you again everyone, I hope you are having a good start to your weekend!
I think that a video addressing those points would be very interesting. It is one thing to say that Darth Sidious was too powerful to be defeated by any single Jedi master, but it is another thing to show how Windu's unique abilities was not up to the task. On paper at least, he seems to be the perfect dark side eliminator: a Jedi who had changed and developed a dynamic form that could keep pace with advances in the dark side. Keep up the good work!
I think the video would be great it would explain how Sidious overcame Windu's Vappad and TBH this video almost convinced me if it wasn't for George Lucas confirming the face that Windu did defeat Sidious
Meh, Lucas changed A New Hope so that Greedo shot first fundamentally changing one of the primary characters of his films decades after the fact. Nobody is completely infallible, even of their own creations, especially when they have sold off said creation to another entity.
you said " THE NEW SITH COULD NOT BE DESTROYED WITH A LIGHTSABER, THEY COULD NOT BE BURNED BY ANY TORCH OF THE FORCE "
yeah, that's because the NEW SITH would be killed by SPLATTERING ACROSS THE DEATH STAR REACTOR CORE after he was THROWN OF A CLIFF in episode 6. Hahaha !!!
Mace did evolve, he created a lightsaber form never seen within the order. The novel was expressing Yoda inability to adapt. 900 years, and lots of Sith Lords have lived while Yoda was alive, because he was clueless.
Mace was different. He accepted the darkness within himself and didn't shun away from it like Yoda did. Clone Wars Season 6 with the Force Priestess shows Yoda fight his dark side and he finally realizes his mistake. Roughly 900 years later.
The reason why Mace didn't win can be summed in in one sentence: Because Anakin showed up
1plus0neistwo
FACTS
1plus0neistwo because it's a preqjel
1plus0neistwo Sidious took a dive to manipulate him
That's not even a consideration because the only reason that he threw the fight is because Anakin showed up. Otherwise Mace would have gotten smoked just like Darth Maul and Savage Opress did!
Hardly. Palpy was a Sith and with much at stake. He'd be extremely selfish and he wouldn't allow himself to be put at Mace Windu or Anakin's mercy. He was DEFEATED by Mace.
Ok, people if you quote George Lucas on the fight, maybe you should not only quote your favorite part but listen to everything he said. Yes, he said Windu overpowered Sidious in lightsaber battle but he also said that Palpatine was faking being defenseless. It is on the DVD commentary.
Yeah, some people underestimate Windu. He is one of the two leading figures in the order for a reason. Yoda is the only Jedi in the order that match his skills.
"faking being defenseless" and "threw the fight" are two different concepts entirely; what you're talking about is a "feint", which Sidious did before he threw the lightning that Windu blocked; not after Windu's hand was cut off jut before being killed.
@@gameking8809 He's the best fighter but not necessarily the best strategist. In fact his strategy kind of sucked at Geonosis. Although that was on Yoda too.
I think Windu was straighfoward and relied more on brute strength and skill, as well as his own perception. He could be overcome by someone more subtle and sneaky.
Perhaps Sidious had a backup plan and other tricks up his sleeve? I doubt he'd have risked all on one duel. He also knew Windu and no doubt knew his abilities.
He loss the duel.He relied on Anakin to turn to the dark side at that point.
Well just because being defeated is not in your plan it doesn't mean you can't be defeated. In the immortal words of Mike Tyson "Everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face". Plus I'm sure being tossed off the rafters wasn't in Palpatine's plan either but it happened. So I think the logic is a little flawed here. Although in this case it is what probably happened, but still.
Also it sux that those deeper themes were never explained in the movies. Until I started watching yours and others great videos I had no idea what the "Rule of two" is.
I might have to do a Live Hangout on this topic to be able to address great comments like yours here Todd, as the comment section won't allow me to do it justice. I really like your points (love that Tyson quote too). That is so great to hear about the Rule of Two, as it is one of my favourite aspects/topics in the Star Wars universe. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to comment and I hope that you enjoy the upcoming videos. Thank you for watching!
I would not consider Sidious defeated, I would rather say he is the kind of person with a second plan just in case everything fails. If I were to compare him with another fictional leader, I would say he is an evil Vetinari (from the Discworld novels): yes, you have a plan but too many details can make it fail. Of course, he wasn't expecting to be tossed the way he was, but that does not mean he was not ready with a card under the sleeve.
If anything, Anakin's redemption against Palpatine was just as much of a failure of Bane's 1000 year plan as if Windu had cut the Sith Lord down. It reminds me of Jolee Bindo's story about Andor Vex. Sure, you can have a destiny that seems as clear cut as a master jeweler's diamond, but as soon as you bet everything on the fulfillment of that destiny, you find yourself falling towards a reactor.
He lost...it's in the book how he would have lost even with Sidious disarmed
Mace had the High Ground how did he lose
Palpatine used UNLLIIIIIIIIMETEEED POOOWWAAAAA and it was super effective
Darth Maul 🤣
xX_SHOTGUNNY _Xx he ruined a perfectly good text post smh
Never underestimate the true power of the dark side!
he had the low ground after getting his hand chopped off.
This is usually a very controversial topic so thank you for explaining it and making this video
The Non-Canon Expert only tackles the most controversial subjects. :) In all honesty, I love this topic because a lot of it boils down to what we see and what we don't see. Since RotS was released, I have gone back and forth, but my initial feeling on watching the scene was that Sidious was manipulating Anakin, forcing him into making a tough decision. I hope that you enjoyed it BS and thank you for watching!
Star Wars Reading Club your opinion isn't defended by the commentary for episode 3.
George Lucas does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation.
There is no controversy mace beat him we saw it end of story! Its like me saying you didn't send your message when I'm reading it now!
@@galenmarek8287 THANK YOU!
It is true that Sidious played his cards better in the grand scheme of things and wanted to turn Anakin. All was accomplished through manipulation. And while I recognize that he was the most powerful sith lord, product of a 1000 years preparation, he was not invincible. Yoda did indeed realized the sith had won even before his battle against Sidious began, but it wasn't because his enemy was too powerful in the force to be defeated. The sith had evolved, adapted. The Jedi prepared to battle the sith just like in the old Republic era, while the sith instead gained power not only in the force but in politics and other fields. If he would have killed Sidious nothing would have resolved, the jedi would be still labeled as traitors and hunted down. Vader would have ketp the rule of two alive and appointed a new apprentice. Even in death Sidious, or in other words the Sith order, would have still won. This is why he thinks to himself that they were not an enemy that Jedi could defeat in light saver combat. It is like, centuries ago things were settled by the sword, but now even though you could sent assassins to kill opposition in secrecy (like Darth Sidious did) you can't openly "make your point valid" by besting your enemy in combat. Example in a presidential debate pull your gun, shoot dead the other guy and claim to be the Victor and new ruler of the country. What would have Yoda done after killing Sidious or even disarm him. Take him to the authorities? He was already a traitor and Sidious controlled the courts, heck the whole Republic.
Obi Wan: "The Sith are evil, Anakin!"
Anakin: "From my point of view the Jedi are evil!"
Obi Wan: "Come on, I know Yoda looks like a green-turd with ears, or a gay gremlin, but Palpatine looks like a METH-SMOKING DEMON."
Anakin: "Hmmm."
1- Anakin isn't an idiot, he is capale of understanding who won which is why he was nervous that Mace is actually going to kill Sidious
2 - Sidious isn't idiot enough to rely his life on Anakin's dubious betrayal and let Mace to wield a lightsaber to his throat (Mace is on the same level with Yoda btw, according to Lucas)
3- Sidious actually used a powerful force lightning on him, which hit Mace Windu at the begining and Sidious actually could kill Mace with force lightning before Anakin betrays him
4- Sidious' force lightning was strong enough to ''bend'' Mace's lightsaber, Mace could lose the control and he could get killed before Anakin betrays him
5- Sidious get hit by his own force lightning and you can see the smoke and melting face of Palpatine
All true. Anakin wasn't deceived by Sidious's supposed feint; He knew that he was just pretending. It was his fear for Padme that led him to the act of helping Sidious.
Mace is not the same level as Yoda, several sources state that he is weaker. Even Mace himself said that he is not equal to Yoda.
I agree
Mace windu defeated sidious, HERE IS THE PROOF.
When people claim " sidious threw the fight on purpose to turn Anakin to the dark side " they prove that they have forgotten or misunderstood everything in every star wars movie. Claiming sidious threw the fight is wrong on so many levels.
1# after Anakin cut windu's hand , he didn't smile, jump for joy and say " yay ! I'm finally a darksider " he dropped his saber, falls to his knees, slumped his shoulder and said " what have I done ?" Anakin expresses regret. He then says " just help me save padme " in a very remorseful way. These are not the actions of a man who has embraced the dark side. anakin assumes that he has no other choice at that point. SIDIOUS DID NOT TURN ANAKIN.
#2 this claim assumes that sidious sensed anakin coming. but this is flatly contradicted by the fact that Lucas has already established a reoccurring theme in all star wars movies for letting the audience know when a character on screen senses something that we can't see. Facial expressions, verbal statements and physical gestures are the indicators. Here's a list. EP 4 - when alderran is destroyed , obi wan GRABS HIS CHEST, SITS DOWN AND FURROWS HIS BROW. Luke asks what's wrong ? Obi wan says " I felt a great disturbance in the force ,as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror ".
EP 4 - when the falcon arrives at the death star , vader says " I sense something , a presence I haven't felt sense......"
EP 5 - when Luke is hanging on for his life he says " leia hear me" then we get close up of Leias face saying " Luke"......." , we have to go back I know where Luke is "
EP 6 - Luke senses vader on the star destroyer and says " vaders on that ship.......I'm endangering the mission "
EP 6 - vader goes to sidious/Palpatine and says he senses his son, but sidious' vision is so clouded that he doesn't sense Luke , but vader tells him AGAIN " I have felt him"
EP 1 - ki adi mundi says to Anakin " your thoughts dwell on your mother " Anakin says " I miss her "
EP 2 - Anakin and obi wan stop in the middle of their conversation when Anakin senses padme is in danger , obi wan says " I sense it too "
EP 2 - when Anakin looses his mom, yoda is across the galaxy but he tells mace " I sense Skywalker is in pain"
EP 2 - yoda sense the dooku duel and requests a ship.
EP 3 - yoda drops his cane, clutches his chest and looks like he's having a stroke when order 66 happens.
THERE IS NOTHING IN THE WINDU VS SIDIOUS FIGHT TO INDICATE THAT SIDIOUS SENSE ANAKIN !. How can he sense Anakin Skywalker on courascant when he couldn't sense Luke Skywalker on endor. All his senses were focused on surviving windus fury,l. Sidious didn't sense when Anakin was about to throw him to his death. But thats only the first reason the " sidious threw the fight " claim is bogus.
2# when you say sidious threw the fight to look weak in front of Anakin, because he needed Anakin to betray mace to turn to the dark side, it assumes Anakin needs to think sidious is weak and that the jedi are corrupt in order to turn and save him from mace. But why mace why not one of the weaker jedi ? The smart thing would be to pick off windu, kit fisto and one other and leave the weakest jedi left to use as a sacrificial lamb just in case Anakin doesn't turn, unless you claim that sidious already knew that Anakin would turn in which case it makes no sense for you to say " sidious lost to mace to turn Anakin" sidious would have just killed all 4 jedi and told Anakin anything and Anakin wouldn't have arrested or killed him because he thought he needed him to save padme ( besides, he wouldn't have been able to arrest him ) there's no way sidious could have expected Anakin to think he's weak, you have the bodies of three jedi masters in the office , a trail of destruction leading to the shattered window where sidious is throwing a barrage of lightening at mace AND YOU WANT ME TO BELIEVE SIDIOUS IS PLAYING POSSUM WITH MACE ? But the biggest giveaway is that despite the fact that mace and sidious have been fighting, sidious is still alive ! Have you forgotten that mace defeated a battalion of battle droids on dantooine with his bare hands, he created vapaad ( the deadliest lightsaber style) he can see shatterpoints through the force ( which means he can see his opponents weaknesses) he lead the jedi into the geonosis pit where he took off jango fetts head. And in episode 1 when qui gon asks for Anakin to be tested , yoda looks to mace for the final judgment and mace shakes his head and says " bring him before us " so 900 year old yoda looks to mace for wisdom sometimes. And mace uses the force to crush general grievous' internal organs explaining why grievous is always coughing in episode-3 . Sam Jackson requested a purple lightsaber but the 'in universe ' explanation is that the light side of the force is used by the jedi who use blue sabers and the dark side is used by the sith who use red sabers, so mix red and blue and you get purple which is a representation of mace balancing light and dark thus making him the only force user who mastered both sides of the force while never falling to the dark. I mention this because you act like mace is some wimp. Lucas himself said mace beat sidious , and that yoda and mace are the only ones that can duel with the emperor. You act like sidious is god , but he looses his lightsaber duel with mace and when he shoots lightning mace just deflects it and fries sidious. Sidious definitely lost his duel with yoda because he puts his light saber away and runs away from yoda like a coward and proceeds to throw stuff at him from a distance to avoid dueling with yoda. But yoda chases him and fires up his saber about 3 times ,as if to say " stop running and fight me punk" but cowardly sidious shoots the blade out yodas hand and shoots lightning but yoda just absorbs it with his bare hands like a boss, so the fight ended in a draw because yoda retreated but sidious didn't pursue. And when the clones tell him " there no sign of the body" instead of finishing yoda off , sidious sends his clones after him like a coward. Then in episode 6, he doesn't even try to duel with Luke , he just shoots him with lightning ( which doesn't deform Luke incidentally ) but then get thrown off a cliff by a one armed vader who just got his ass kicked and sidious doesn't even sense it coming. I mean seriously guys , come on, you act like sidious is invincible but he has the most anticlimactic and uneventful death in all of star wars, everyone dies better than sidious,!!! qui gon, darth maul, jango, dooku, mace, Obi wan, even general grievous put up a better fight at the end of his life than sidious. And the funny thing is, sidious' name doesn't even imply that he's all powerful !!! If you type synonyms for insidious you will find words like deception, shrewd, cunning, duplicitous, sneaky etc. You won't find words like ALL POWERFUL, UNSTOPPABLE, GOD, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT, INVINCIBLE ETC But you act like it does. Many of you are simply misreading the scene, you mistakenly assume that sidious senses Anakin because he starts losing after we see Anakin run to the office. but the real reason is that after seeing his three comrades cut down, mace loses his concentration momentarily because he didn't expect sidious to be that strong but quickly regains his composure when sidious points the tip of his blade at maces chest and thrusts but mace spins around and catches the tip of the blade and locks sabers with sidious, he's staring down sidious eye to eye, as if to say " you ain't that strong punk ! " at this point mace has regained his composure and starts pressing the attack , AFTER THAT we see Anakin land his ship. And if you say " but why did those other three jedi lose so quick ? " easy to explain, darth maul set a very high standard for lightsaber duels in phantom menace, so they topped that in attack of the clones by having dooku beat the guy who beat maul, and his apprentice by shooting lightning and then fight yoda. So they had to top that with sidious in episode 3 , but we already saw lightning, so they had him kill three jedi in the blink of an eye in order to establish the fact to the audience that despite the weak appearance of sidious, he is stronger than maul and dooku, but not stronger than mace. now we star wars fans already know this but many people in the crowd may not know. So yes , mace really is that much stronger than those three jedi , no contradiction . Why is it so difficult for you to see or admit that mace won ? You have some grudge against him ? And I'm not a mace fanboy but even if I was it doesn't change the fact that I'm right, you are the ones who go out of your way to concoct these elaborate convoluted theories about how your saviour sidious won, and I'm over here just giving you a simply reading of the movie, not because I'm obsessed but because I just pay attention, try it sometime
Anakin was a fool to think his wife would die cause of a force vision he literally acted on it thus cause it to be true
@@Jedi_Mind_ " And I'm not a mace fanboy"... Yet you wrote the largest comment of all time and what a ramble it was!
In my personal opinion/Lucas words....Mace Won. Every other Reason why he didn't win is FAR too circumstantial.
Tommie Cobb
agreed
normally I take George Lucas's word with a pinch of salt
but considering here he wrote the damn movie I think he has the final call
May I remind you that it was Lucas who approved the publication of the book which clearly states that Sidious was in total control of the matter? Lucas is contradicting himself all the time and this well known fact, but the approval of a book is by far more serious that just "words". Thus, the arguement that "Lucas said this and that" is quite refutable...
Except GL's words mean shit now. Disney owns SW now and they officially said Mace Windu was second only to Yoda and Palpy was the most powerful being in the Galaxy!
No it's just common sense, he was obviously faking
*****
How was he obviously faking?
Getting disarmed and backed into a corner by a master of vaapad is not something you need to fake and I doubt palpatine would be dumb enough to tempt fate like that
I thought George Lucas said Sidius genuinely lost the battle with Mace, and it wasn't a ruse.
Seems like quite a bit of risk to take giving a dualist like Mace an opening like that anyways.
Yeah. George did say that. He said that Mace, Yoda, and Anakin are the only Jedi who could pose a serious threat to Sidious. Mace legitimately defeated Sidious through his mastery of Vaapad and Shatterpoint.
@@michaelbalance98 he also said Sidious was never in any real danger, so mace beat sidious in the duel, but maces fate was already sealed due to sidious's manipulations
@@dillonb5317 specifically, manipulations of Anakin.
They were standing on the edge of a high building, Palpatine could just force push him at any time.
They both could. 🤦
George, Lucas did confirm that palpatine was legitimately defeated by Mace windu
Excellent vid. Great research put into this one.
Thank you TytheBandit, I always appreciate your support and time to comment. This is definitely one of my favourite topics, so it is great to hear that you enjoyed it. Thank you for watching!
Inb4 "MACE IS TEH MOST POWERFUL JEDI AND FORCE USER EVA!1!!!" comments
BUTT MACE IS MOST POWAFULL JEDI EVA OMG HE BETE SIDIOUS
James DeLano OMG!1+!!
XmenMagnetoAcolytes Not what lucus said in an interview.Just look it up.
Mace beat Sidious, but only through a special set of circumstances.
And he has a special set of skills.
The special set of circumstances is what people call a "duel" BTW.
Also to add to this theory. Because he was disarmed and Windu deflected his force lighting back to him it caused his mask to melt revealing his true face. This made it look like he was deformed by the Jedi which convinced Anakin that he needed saving and helped with his story to the senate.
you said " THE NEW SITH COULD NOT BE DESTROYED WITH A LIGHTSABER, THEY COULD NOT BE BURNED BY ANY TORCH OF THE FORCE "
yeah, that's because the NEW SITH would be killed by SPLATTERING ACROSS THE DEATH STAR REACTOR CORE after he was THROWN OF A CLIFF in episode 6. Hahaha !!!
The emperor could not be defeated by lightsaber or by the force but could be picked up and thrown down a pit.
A thousand years of the post power dark side user, each on more powerful, it's no wonder why they were more powerful they were over the Jedi. Great video and I've always liked your stuff, just realized I was a sub for your channel, lol. I'm am now and I look forward to more videos.
Mace Windu probably did have the advantage in his use of the lightsaber, but he did not defeat Sidious. As Sidious clearly was faking his defeat and pretending to run out of power. The second Anakin attacked Windu, Sidious dropped the act and yelled "unlimited power" as he killed Windu.
But I do believe that Windu actually was better with a lightsaber.
Mace lost because Jar-Jar was doing battle meditation in the room next door. Then, he called on the phone George Lucas and was told by Jar-Jar that the force was strong and had to sell over to Disney and makes us all feel like crap. My 2 cents.
Dude, Star Wars Reading Club, you broke that down like a class-act lawyer!!! You are blessed with some amazing analytical abilities!!! I totally hear what you are saying 🕵🏾
Mace defeated Sidious, Anakin defeated Mace, Anakin became a Sith, the Sith win. It's ridiculous to say that Sidious didn't lose just because it wasn't part of Darth Bane's plan especially considering that things went according to his plan anyway. After all, it was the power of the Sith and Sidious's manipulation of Anakin that caused him to cut Mace's arm off so it's not that far off to think that Bane's master plan included the betrayal of a jedi
He lost dummy, he faked losing
"Mace defeated Sidious"
George Lucas said otherwhise on the DVD commentary. He clearly said that after Sidious was disarmed he only pretended to loose his powers. It is confirmed that he acted.
I refuse to believe this theory. Mace defeated Sidious, end of story. Sure, he played off his defeat to play to Anakin's distrust of the Jedi, but he was trying to kill Mace. Mace was just a bad MFer. Remember, when Anakin was talking about Obi-Wan in AOTC? "He's as wise as master Yoda and as powerful as master Windu". Mace was more powerful (at least as a duelist) than Yoda, hence his defeat of Sidious, while Yoda lost/stalemate with him.
I agree you. The other Jedi like Yoda make have stayed stagnant I'm there abilities but Mace didn't. He developed Vaapad to fight against Dark Lords of the Sith. Even the book Revenge of the Sith points out that Mace was amazed by the power he was receiving from Vaapad. It says that if they kept going as they were one or both of them would drop dead from exhaustion. Mace manipulated Sidious onto the wet ledge so he would have to switch some of his dark power from fighting to maintaining a grip on the ledge. Sidious was acting as Dark Lords of the old republic did when confronted with a Jedi, he just wanted to kill Mace. However Mace was matching Sidious power for power, and blow for blow.
plo617 plus George Lucas himself said that mace overpowered sidious, witch isn't George changing the story it's him clarifying what he was portraying in the movie.
Um no? Yoda was stronger then mace
Incorrect, and he didn't defeat Sidious
I agree
Mace windu defeated sidious, HERE IS THE PROOF.
When people claim " sidious threw the fight on purpose to turn Anakin to the dark side " they prove that they have forgotten or misunderstood everything in every star wars movie. Claiming sidious threw the fight is wrong on so many levels.
1# after Anakin cut windu's hand , he didn't smile, jump for joy and say " yay ! I'm finally a darksider " he dropped his saber, falls to his knees, slumped his shoulder and said " what have I done ?" Anakin expresses regret. He then says " just help me save padme " in a very remorseful way. These are not the actions of a man who has embraced the dark side. anakin assumes that he has no other choice at that point. SIDIOUS DID NOT TURN ANAKIN.
#2 this claim assumes that sidious sensed anakin coming. but this is flatly contradicted by the fact that Lucas has already established a reoccurring theme in all star wars movies for letting the audience know when a character on screen senses something that we can't see. Facial expressions, verbal statements and physical gestures are the indicators. Here's a list. EP 4 - when alderran is destroyed , obi wan GRABS HIS CHEST, SITS DOWN AND FURROWS HIS BROW. Luke asks what's wrong ? Obi wan says " I felt a great disturbance in the force ,as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror ".
EP 4 - when the falcon arrives at the death star , vader says " I sense something , a presence I haven't felt sense......"
EP 5 - when Luke is hanging on for his life he says " leia hear me" then we get close up of Leias face saying " Luke"......." , we have to go back I know where Luke is "
EP 6 - Luke senses vader on the star destroyer and says " vaders on that ship.......I'm endangering the mission "
EP 6 - vader goes to sidious/Palpatine and says he senses his son, but sidious' vision is so clouded that he doesn't sense Luke , but vader tells him AGAIN " I have felt him"
EP 1 - ki adi mundi says to Anakin " your thoughts dwell on your mother " Anakin says " I miss her "
EP 2 - Anakin and obi wan stop in the middle of their conversation when Anakin senses padme is in danger , obi wan says " I sense it too "
EP 2 - when Anakin looses his mom, yoda is across the galaxy but he tells mace " I sense Skywalker is in pain"
EP 2 - yoda sense the dooku duel and requests a ship.
EP 3 - yoda drops his cane, clutches his chest and looks like he's having a stroke when order 66 happens.
THERE IS NOTHING IN THE WINDU VS SIDIOUS FIGHT TO INDICATE THAT SIDIOUS SENSE ANAKIN !. How can he sense Anakin Skywalker on courascant when he couldn't sense Luke Skywalker on endor. All his senses were focused on surviving windus fury,l. Sidious didn't sense when Anakin was about to throw him to his death. But thats only the first reason the " sidious threw the fight " claim is bogus.
2# when you say sidious threw the fight to look weak in front of Anakin, because he needed Anakin to betray mace to turn to the dark side, it assumes Anakin needs to think sidious is weak and that the jedi are corrupt in order to turn and save him from mace. But why mace why not one of the weaker jedi ? The smart thing would be to pick off windu, kit fisto and one other and leave the weakest jedi left to use as a sacrificial lamb just in case Anakin doesn't turn, unless you claim that sidious already knew that Anakin would turn in which case it makes no sense for you to say " sidious lost to mace to turn Anakin" sidious would have just killed all 4 jedi and told Anakin anything and Anakin wouldn't have arrested or killed him because he thought he needed him to save padme ( besides, he wouldn't have been able to arrest him ) there's no way sidious could have expected Anakin to think he's weak, you have the bodies of three jedi masters in the office , a trail of destruction leading to the shattered window where sidious is throwing a barrage of lightening at mace AND YOU WANT ME TO BELIEVE SIDIOUS IS PLAYING POSSUM WITH MACE ? But the biggest giveaway is that despite the fact that mace and sidious have been fighting, sidious is still alive ! Have you forgotten that mace defeated a battalion of battle droids on dantooine with his bare hands, he created vapaad ( the deadliest lightsaber style) he can see shatterpoints through the force ( which means he can see his opponents weaknesses) he lead the jedi into the geonosis pit where he took off jango fetts head. And in episode 1 when qui gon asks for Anakin to be tested , yoda looks to mace for the final judgment and mace shakes his head and says " bring him before us " so 900 year old yoda looks to mace for wisdom sometimes. And mace uses the force to crush general grievous' internal organs explaining why grievous is always coughing in episode-3 . Sam Jackson requested a purple lightsaber but the 'in universe ' explanation is that the light side of the force is used by the jedi who use blue sabers and the dark side is used by the sith who use red sabers, so mix red and blue and you get purple which is a representation of mace balancing light and dark thus making him the only force user who mastered both sides of the force while never falling to the dark. I mention this because you act like mace is some wimp. Lucas himself said mace beat sidious , and that yoda and mace are the only ones that can duel with the emperor. You act like sidious is god , but he looses his lightsaber duel with mace and when he shoots lightning mace just deflects it and fries sidious. Sidious definitely lost his duel with yoda because he puts his light saber away and runs away from yoda like a coward and proceeds to throw stuff at him from a distance to avoid dueling with yoda. But yoda chases him and fires up his saber about 3 times ,as if to say " stop running and fight me punk" but cowardly sidious shoots the blade out yodas hand and shoots lightning but yoda just absorbs it with his bare hands like a boss, so the fight ended in a draw because yoda retreated but sidious didn't pursue. And when the clones tell him " there no sign of the body" instead of finishing yoda off , sidious sends his clones after him like a coward. Then in episode 6, he doesn't even try to duel with Luke , he just shoots him with lightning ( which doesn't deform Luke incidentally ) but then get thrown off a cliff by a one armed vader who just got his ass kicked and sidious doesn't even sense it coming. I mean seriously guys , come on, you act like sidious is invincible but he has the most anticlimactic and uneventful death in all of star wars, everyone dies better than sidious,!!! qui gon, darth maul, jango, dooku, mace, Obi wan, even general grievous put up a better fight at the end of his life than sidious. And the funny thing is, sidious' name doesn't even imply that he's all powerful !!! If you type synonyms for insidious you will find words like deception, shrewd, cunning, duplicitous, sneaky etc. You won't find words like ALL POWERFUL, UNSTOPPABLE, GOD, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT, INVINCIBLE ETC But you act like it does. Many of you are simply misreading the scene, you mistakenly assume that sidious senses Anakin because he starts losing after we see Anakin run to the office. but the real reason is that after seeing his three comrades cut down, mace loses his concentration momentarily because he didn't expect sidious to be that strong but quickly regains his composure when sidious points the tip of his blade at maces chest and thrusts but mace spins around and catches the tip of the blade and locks sabers with sidious, he's staring down sidious eye to eye, as if to say " you ain't that strong punk ! " at this point mace has regained his composure and starts pressing the attack , AFTER THAT we see Anakin land his ship. And if you say " but why did those other three jedi lose so quick ? " easy to explain, darth maul set a very high standard for lightsaber duels in phantom menace, so they topped that in attack of the clones by having dooku beat the guy who beat maul, and his apprentice by shooting lightning and then fight yoda. So they had to top that with sidious in episode 3 , but we already saw lightning, so they had him kill three jedi in the blink of an eye in order to establish the fact to the audience that despite the weak appearance of sidious, he is stronger than maul and dooku, but not stronger than mace. now we star wars fans already know this but many people in the crowd may not know. So yes , mace really is that much stronger than those three jedi , no contradiction . Why is it so difficult for you to see or admit that mace won ? You have some grudge against him ? And I'm not a mace fanboy but even if I was it doesn't change the fact that I'm right, you are the ones who go out of your way to concoct these elaborate convoluted theories about how your saviour sidious won, and I'm over here just giving you a simply reading of the movie, not because I'm obsessed but because I just pay attention, try it sometime
I disagree Mace had access to vapad and was using it against the dark load, also Darth Sidious hit Yoda with a full power force lighting and Yoda was not harm. Sidious got lucky he said it himself, when talking to Vader about that night, this is my opinion about the fight.
It is like I allways thought: The Jedi's fighting skills stagnated because they assumed that if their old enemies would return they would be exactly the same like a thousand years ago. They underastimated them, denied the possibility of their further existence and the Jedi Code, all of it's flaws and their loyality to a corrupt gouverment would be used against them.
Mace Windu defeated Palpatine simply because his victory was part of Sidious's plan. But does this diminish Mace Windu or his skills as a lightsaber duelist? No, it doesn't. Through Vapaad he was able to deflect Sidious's power back to him and creating a stalemate which means that he was incapeable of defeating his enemy but this was also true for Sidious. For me they are equal. Does this mean that Sidious is unbeatable? No. If Yoda and Mace would team up they would wipe the floor with him. I'm sure that's one of the reasons he let the CIS attack Kashyyk. Because he knew that Yoda has good relationships with the Wookies and would be too ar away to be a thread to his plans. How did he know that? Because he spend time with Yoda and Im sure he knew him in and out.
Mace whooped that emperor ass
Mace 100% won the duel, his lightsaber style feeds from the darkside, the stronger the opponent is on the dark side the best he is at a duel. He was also the only jedi who mastered every existing lightsaber dueling style (including the style he himself created). He was regarded as the best lightsaber duelist of his time for a reason, Palpatine played his hand well cause he knew losing would sway Anakin, but Windu did win the duel.
The novelization completely disagrees with you..... I will trust it over you
You can be in love and follow Dark Side.
@Dfg Sdfg Yeah, I don't think Anakin got that memo. Or that Palpatine would have told him, I mean that's the nature of seduction. Making evil look appealing. Making the Dark Side look like something that was good and helpful.
What If Grievous escaped Utapau for Mustafar and then Anakin tried to kill Grievous along with the other separatists, and then Obi-wan and Grievous team up to kill Anakin?
I find it ridiculous how people can think Mace had any chance of defeating Sidious. If he wanted, the Dark Lord could have ended their confrontation in an instant, wether through lightsaber or by force lightning, but Sidious still had a plan to full-fill with the chosen one. George Lucas said Windu won? Ha! Even Lucas doesn´t even know what he is talking about sometimes.
Um... George Lucas created Star Wars. He created the characters. If he says Mace won, Mace won.
Lucas actually didn´t say that. He only said that he won the lightsaber part but he also said that Palpatine was faking his weakness to lure Anakin to the darkside.
George Lucas stated multiple times that Mace Windu defeated Sidious turning the sith lord's own dark side against him.
FUCK Lucas! He whored himself and his legacy to Disney! And he had a lot of shit ideas with noone to critisise him.
Great point; most ppl talk about how Mace's force powers hard counters 1v1 duels - Sidious wouldn't have risked 1000 years of planning on a single duel.
Thank you Puckkee, I am happy to hear that you enjoyed the perspective on this one. I appreciate the support and I hope you enjoy the upcoming videos as well!
It's quite clear that Palpatine phoned it in with Mace Windu, because he fights far more rapid and destructive against Yoda later in the film
Sidious did not need anakin or anyone for that matter to be on his side.....He had control of the entire Clone army...He wouldn't risk his entire plan failing on Anakin's decision...So yes he was defeated and would have died if not for Anakin's involvement...
Fantastic! the quote from the novel really brings this together.
Thanks for your hard work and be well.
So how'd the jedi know it was the rule of two?
I prefer to think that Sidious knew he couldn't win in a straight-up duel with Mace Windu, and instead planned another way to win. He might have lost the duel, but never planned on winning it in the first place. Not without cheating via Anakin.
if it wasn't for Anakin Skywalker then Insidious would have been dead with his old ass
Enjoying your videos thank you! On topic: its clear that darth sidious was a master duelist as he was able to easily kill two jedi masters in his first attack in rots, not to mention defeating yoda after a lengthy battle. However he did look defeated at the feet of mace and even shocked himself in an last ditch attempt at victory. I feel like if he really felt he was in complete control he may have avoided destroying his good looks lol.
3:20 - doesn't mean jedi should be weak, the sith wasn't the only threat to jedi, bounty hunters, wars, numerous dangerous planets, dark jedi, they can still keep themselves powerful, novel doesn't say jedi weakened, the jedi were same, just that sith has grown more powerful. Sidious was powerful enough but Mace had amplification due to saving the republic from the deceiver palpatine who deceived him for so long
I've read the novel and seen the movie. I choose to believe mace hit a shatter point when he kicked sidious's light sabre out of his hands and would have killed him had aniken not interfered.
George Lucas actually said Mace won. So. He won.
Red Tube
I can understand the argument that Mace Windu legitimately won the lightsaber duel against Palpatine, but the notion that he could have killed Palpatine is just ridiculous. Palpatine could have killed him with Force-lightning at any moment.
@@CulturalMarxist4985 he tried that, only succeeded when mace was disarmed lol when the creator of a story says something I'd believe him. (Just me)
Thanks for making these great videos. I was also wondering if you had played the game: Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire. For the time it came out it is actually quite fun and captures some of the spirit of Star Wars.
Not a problem at all Oscar, thank you for watching! I have not played Shadows of the Empire, but I believe I see it available in a Steam bundle so I may have to check it out. I hope that you enjoy the upcoming videos Oscar.
One of the major tools Mace had to use against Palpatine was his Vapaad technique. Mace is said to have helped create and was eventually the sole master of this fighting style. But this begs the question: How did Mace know his technique would work? Who did he test it against in order to prove its ability? Did he just know by instinct that the superconducting loop created by the technique would deflect the darkness of an opponent back to its source?
Keep in mind that the Sith were as yet unknown when Windu and Sora Bulq began creating the style. And aside from a few duels with Dooku and Ventress, Windu never had much chance to refine his technique on Sith trained fighters before his duel with Palpatine.
So was the technique built totally on theory and proved to be effective after the fact, or were there enough dark side users before the clone wars for Windu and Bulq to test the style against?
Your basic premise here is that the plan couldn’t have been risky because it succeeded, but that is iffy. The big thing here is that betting it all on Anakin turning at this point isn’t that bad of a bet. Remember: If Anakin doesn’t turn EVER, it doesn’t really matter what happens here. Failing to turn Anakin means the Sith are destroyed, within one human lifetime in f when this duel occurs. I think that Sidious believes Anakin is the chosen one destined to destroy the sith. Maybe he even foresaw that outcome. Sidious, therefore, set out to turn Anakin not only for his power. He set out to turn Anakin because he convinced himself that turning Anakin would eliminate the existential danger that Anakin posed to the Sith.
It would stand to reason, then, that Sidious would maneuver events towards a situation where he was legitimately at a disadvantage. He needed to have lost, believably, so that Anakin would be willing to turn in order to prevent his destruction. But he not only needed to have lost, he needed his loss to be the hands of the one (out of two) Jedi he could have lost to that Anakin didn’t trust. Thus why Yoda ended up on Kashyyyk. If Yoda had been in the chancellor’s office and decided to execute Sidious, Anakin doesn’t turn. It has to be Mace. So Sidious has to be beaten, and has to beaten by the guy Anakin doesn’t trust. But he has to be beaten, believably. Which means Sidious had to actually bet the farm on the outcome of this duel. Because it’s the only way to turn Anakin, and failing to turn Anakin ever means Anakin destroys the Sith.
And, honestly, if you believe in the prophecy... It’s not even really a bet. Because you put yourself in a position where either Anakin is going to turn and save you or Not Anakin is going to do the thing that Anakin has to do by prophecy. Yeah, on paper Windu could beat Palpatine. Just like Yoda found out, it doesn’t matter. Because only one person is going to be able to destroy him. It has been foreseen. And, maybe there are multiple outcomes of “Anakin destroys the Sith”. But ALL possible outcomes require Anakin to do the deed. And Sidious knew this, so he put himself in a losing position because he figured he couldn’t lose as long as it was unlikely that Anakin Skywalker was going to want to take his head. And he was right.
" *UUUNNLIMITEED!!!...POOOWAAAHH!!!* "
Who thought Sidious didn't throw that fight? It was pretty obvious , however, I am of the belief that with Vaapad, Mace could at the least stalemate Sidious on his own merits.
wjb61274123 not to mention him kicking Sidious in the face
While the analysis in the video is brilliant, detailed and precise, the Mace Windu fanboys are not willing to accept facts and thus, I will express some very simplistic arguements in order for their "pittiful little mind" to understand:
1st: I will begin from the main arguement of the "Mace won theory" which is George Lucas who supposingly said "Mace beat him". He never said that, he was only refering in an alternative scene which eventually was NOT included on the film. Furthermore, George Lucas also agreed for the novelization of _Revenge of the Sith_ which clearly states that Palpatine was in complete control of the situation. Therefore, even if he had said that (he didn't) this would have been an obvious contradiction of his and apparently, we should take the book far more into consideration than just a non-said quote.
2nd: Vaapad. Some of you guys believe that the use of this technique can defeat any Sith Lord or any user of the Dark Side. The truth is, that it does not go that way at all. This tactic only allows its user to repell the effects his opponent's darkness might have on him and try to turn them against him. This was combined with very agressive moves with the lightsaber. You should recall though that the Sith are fed by anger and fear and other dark side sentiments and therefore even if Vaapad tries to turn those feelings against them, it cannot not cause great damage but in fact it would make them even more furious and the battle would range for eternity with the hope that the Sith Lord will get tired and finally be defeated. Although holding off against a furious Sith also requires great energy from the Vaapad user. In the book, Mace himself believes that Vaapad isn't enough to beat Sidious but only to prevent him from winning. Therefore, stop expressing the pathetic arguement that "Mace used Vapaad, that's why he beat Sidious". It's moronic.
3rd: In the book, it is mentioned that Palpatine sensed that the Jedi are coming against him the moment they left the Jedi Temple and he was absolutely ready to receive them while in the meantime he communicated with Anakin telepathetically and this scene is actually seen in the movie itself. Therefore, he also senses Anakin the moment he leaves the Temple as much as he senses him the moment he enters the Chancellor's office and this is why Palpatine gives up the duel the fucking moment Anakin arrives!!! You want more proof than that? Nearly the same moment... It's so obvious!
4th: Darth Sidious was able to hold against the mighty Grandmaster of the Jedi Order, Yoda who had 800-year experiance in the Force and whom Palpatine was only right to be afraid of. You think he could have not hold against Mace who was much weaker than Yoda? Since I mentioned Yoda as you can see in their battle with the Emperor, the moment Palpatine realises that he cannot defeat the Jedi Master with the lightsaber he simply starts to use his great card which is his Force powers. It is said that Palpatine once quoted that the Sith do not require lightsaber to defeat the Jedi and only their Force powers was more than enough to do it. They only use lightsabers to humiliate them mocking them for their zero evolution. Are you surprised that Palpatine used only Force-lightning against Mace and not any other form of Force power? He could have thrown him his office if he wished and send Mace to the streets of Coruscant before Mace could have even realised what was happening. He only blasted him with Force-lightning in order to accomplish his ultimate plan of turning Anakin to the dark side and in order to do that, he was giving Anakin time to decide.
In conclusion, Mace was no match for Sidious as no other Jedi was apart from Yoda. Palpatine was the culmination of a 1000-year plan of aquiring the great powers and secrets of the Dark Side which countless Sith Masters have spent their entire lives to unlock and when they finally did, they taught their knowledge to their apprentices who were then looking for new powers. This precedure went on all the way to Sidious. The Jedi remained dogmatic and marked zero evolution since their victory ovet the Sith and that is why they were eventually destroyed by the evoluted Sith and that is why Mace could never beat Palpatine since he lacked the appropriate knowledge to do so. Accept it!
The novel said " THE NEW SITH COULD NOT BE DESTROYED WITH A LIGHTSABER, THEY COULD NOT BE BURNED BY ANY TORCH OF THE FORCE "
yeah, that's because the NEW SITH would be killed by SPLATTERING ACROSS THE DEATH STAR REACTOR CORE after he was THROWN OF A CLIFF in episode 6. Hahaha !!!
@@Jedi_Mind_ He's still alive by the time of Episode 9.
Are you fucking stupid? I watched the interview the question was specifically asked DID PALPATINE FAKE LOSING TO MACE! HE SAID NO HE REALLY LOST! I WENT TO A STAR WARS CONVENTION IN WHICH GEORGE ALSO ATTENDED! THE QUESTION AGAIN (IM SURE IT WAS ONE OF YOU OR YOUR IDIOT FRIEND ASKED) ..DID MACE BEAT PALPATINE........I WATCHED HIS MOUTH SMILE AND WITH NO HESITATION SAID HE BEAT HIM FAIR AND SQUARE!
SO I HAVE NO NEED TO READ YOUR BOOK ON WHY YOU THINK ANYTHING! WHAT YOU THINK DOES NOT MATTER! FURTHERMORE THE SITH ARE VERY HUBRIS LUKE TOLD HIM THIS IN RETURN! YOU HONESTLY THINK HE WOULD FAKE LOSING TO SOMEONE THE SITH HATES? A JEDI! HE DIDN'T HAVE TO CONVINCE ANAKIN! NUMBER ONE ANAKIN WANTED TO KILL SIDIOUS FROM JUMP! HE WAS TRYING TO SAVE HIS WIFE! WHY AM I ARGUING ABOUT THIS THE MOVIE CLEARLY SHOWS MACE BEATING THAT ASS! IVE BEEN IN THE PRESENCE OF LUCAS WHEN HE ANSWERED THE QUESTION! WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO ARGUE?
OH I KNOW ARGUING ABOUT THE COLORS! HOW BLUE IS REALLY GREEN AND GREEN IS REALLY BLUE! 🖕
Sidious didn't give up he got his ass beat! Sorry fan boy!
For more power then. Always for more power. And beer. And because your videos are always excellent.
GEORGE SAID THAT MACE NEAT HIM! so your OPINION doesn't matter
Mace wandu can use that form against his opponent without letting the darkside consume his heart, he uses the fighting style light saber against his opponent by utilizing their emotions ...this is why im still confuse why people question, on how he manage to keep up with him against Palpatine's fight with him...people need to know their starwars facts
"Power without perception is spiritually useless and therefore of no true value." - Ryaken , from Fist of The North Star
...This is why the jedi lost.
Why is this still debated? Here is the deal: Mace Windu did legitimately get the upper hand on Sidious in the lightsaber duel by disarming him with the kick to the face, Sidious was not toying with him the whole time like some believe, George Lucas has confirmed this and being the creator of the saga his word trumps everything else. However, Sidious was not defeated because he could hold Mace off with Force lightning, maybe indefinitely. He WAS faking how weak he was once he was on the ground. That was obvious that he could keep shooting lightning regardless. So essentially the battle was a stalemate when Anakin arrived. However, I do kind of get the impression Mace could not have blocked the Force lightning forever and that eventually Sidious' lightning was going to push his blade back on him and it seems Vaapad could only hold Force lightning off for so long. But its possible Sidious lightning may have disintegrated his body before that could happen, like it did in Rise of Skywalker. But then again, that was a clone body so i suspect it was not as strong or resilient as his real body. We simply don't know for sure. I think the Episode 3 novelization, while a great read convolutes both duels with to much symbolism that Lucas never really intended and should be taken with a grain of salt. I think Mace, Yoda, and Sidious were all fairly close power wise and any might have beaten the other, but ultimately both Yoda and Mace failed to defeat Sidious.
Mace Windu did defeat him. George Lucas in an interview stated. He definitely defeated Darth Sidious (Emperor Palpatine).
The Revenge of the Sith novelization is CANON and APPROVED BY LUCASFILM as well as George Lucas and in the novelization it said that he didn't.
George often says things about canon that contradict things he already approved or made canon in the past. You have to remember, George Lucas loved Star Wars but I'm pretty sure he didn't read all the books he approved as canon. He simply didn't have time for it and tbh even in the movies he made mistakes that break canon. For example, how could Leia have remembered Padme? Later they wrote a book and made it canon that explained she had some new force ability where she could somehow view images of important people related to her or something of the sort. I think they called it the ability to view force "echos". There's a lot of things that George has said in interviews that contradict his own canon. Another example is how he said Mace Windu is dead... Then when Samuel L Jackson asked if Mace Windu could still be alive, George said "sure Mace can still be alive" so is he alive or dead? Well from that interview you could now say Mace Windu is alive because "George Lucas said so, so therefore Mace Windu is alive." But really in canon so far, Mace Windu has not been established to be alive. Also George Lucas said that the Emperor was just as powerful as Yoda because of their midichlorian counts. However, he already approved and said previously that Yoda's midichlorian count was 17,700 and Darth Sidious's was 20,000. So which is it? Is Darth Sidious's Midichlorian count higher than Yoda's? Or do they have the same midichlorian count? I personally don't ever go with what George says in interviews. He also kept calling Gungans, "Gungas". He has created such a rich and massive amount of lore but also allowed others to be creative and make more lore to therefore make the lore even more fleshed out. Because of that he often forgets things or remembers things incorrectly. To me, if something is approved as canon, I go with what he approved on paper or what he showed in canon shows or the movies. If he approved a book as canon, then it is canon and all of the movies, their novelizations are canon.
So you can believe all you want that Mace won the fight against Sidious. You're wrong, but you can believe that. Yoda also accepted that he had lost and that is why he fled. He could have just found his lightsaber and kept trying to kill Sidious but he didn't. He fled because he knew he could not win. It wasn't explained in the movie, but it was explained in the canon RoTS novelization. So it's the same when people say Yoda won that fight. The fact of the matter is, if Mace or Yoda had won the fight, then The galactic Empire would not have ever existed. Sidious planned for everything. He knew he needed Anakin to do something that made him cross a line to where he pretty much had to join the sith because the jedi or even galaxy as a whole would not be able to forgive him. Sidious won. He won against Mace and he won against Yoda. He knew Anakin would step in to save him. He knew Yoda could not defeat him. Yoda knew this as well. That's why he fled.
now if only I can get my friend who thinks that Mace is stronger than Yoda (because of their fight with Sidious) to watch this
In my opinion i always thought that Darth Sidious threw the fight with Mace Windu on purpose because he sensed Anakin coming into the Office 🤷🏾♂️✅
It wasn't luck that the Sith's plan worked, it was Palpatine knowing that he couldn't defeat Mace Windu on his own that allowed the Sith's plan to work. And there was nothing fortunate about Anakins actions. Palpatine manipulated him and when he knew he would need help, called out to Anakin to come save him, he called out to him seeing that Windu was coming for him, "You do know don't you, if the Jedi Destroy me any chance of saving her will be lost" He knew he was going to lose, but he called in help to turn it into a victory and gain Anakin to his side by stopping Mace. Palpatine held his own fairly well until Mace kicked his lightsaber out the window which happened before Anakin entered. But Palpatine simply couldn't beat Windu on his own though. Mace Window can see through the Force how to win a fight, he gets more powerful when the dark side is used against him, he is evenly matched in skill, is more physically fit, and most importantly can't be hurt by lightning as long as he had his lightsaber. The only way Palpatine wins is if he gets rid of Mace Windu's lightsaber so he can use lightning on him. He couldn't do it during the fight and he needed Anakin's help to do it. He simply doesn't win that fight without Anakin's help. But that is the best thing about Palpatine, he twists and turns everything to his advantage, he used what should have been a loss and because he saw it coming and called to Anakin was able to use the situation to his advantage.
Except acording to Revenge of the Sith novelization Mace only won due to specific circumstances. Vapaad is not automatic trump card against any dark side user, even Mace said that it have it's limits.
Because my master was trained by Jar Jar himslef and therefore the so called jedi "master" didn´t stand a chance.
Sidious draws out the fight as long as possible, I believe Mace would've won due to Vaapad and the shatterpoint power Mace had anyway and Sidious knew this, but he also knew Anakin would be there when he needed him. If you notice, there's a scene where Mace's chest is exposed completely and he has to back away, Sidious could easily have killed him there but doesn't. He needs Anakin to see Mace best him else the manipulation has less of a backbone to it.
Hello SWRC! Hunskil here - I was thinking this video over again and it lead me to a what I consider a very interesting question. As even master yoda or mace could not defeat the modern sith of their time, and the Jedi order proves itself inadequate with its contemporary sith counterparts, having 'trained to refight the last war', I was wondering what a Jedi order capable of destroying palpatine would have looked like? How would the Jedi have adapted to match the rule of two?
This is particularly relevant as it may have been on Luke's mind between episode 6-7, and might influence his design of the new Jedi order we will see in 8 and beyond.
Thanks for reading such a lengthy question, I hope it is at least somewhat worthwhile!
Truth I wish we got to see the very end of that
I am surprised Anton Bandele and the others have not seen this video.
This really tracks if and only if the Darth Plagus theory is also true. Sidious did significant damage to himself and that would only be worth it if Sidious was planning on taking over Anakin's body.
Or maybe Windu's? Backup plan, let Windu kill him so he could take over his body?
Mace defeat Sidious in duel because he was using "Vaapad" that harvest Sith power and make jedi master stronger and stronger for any lightsaber swing. However the dark side was about to corrupt him...
P.S. Add fact both Sidious and Yoda were OLD...
P.S2. In novel : Revenge of the Sith both asked for Anakin help...
George Lucas said he beat him so that should be that. It is clear that in that situation, Palpatine purely gambled in the hopes that the situation would favor him. Gambling as a strategy is not a strategy.
Palpatine Lost on purpose but Mace would have beaten him, if a certain dooface wasn't there anyway.
If you ask me it was more the jedi's arrogance that lost them anything the grand plan ever did, by the time of the phantom menace they jedi are so convinced that there are no mote sith that they downright ignore Qui gon's warnings
Hey Non-cannon Expert, can you explain more how clone troopers were Mandalorians not humans and the Mandalorian wars fought between the republic and Mandalor. What the role of the Jedi was in the conflict, what weapons and tactics were used and how the Republic won in the end. That be a cool vid. Thanks! Also have questions about Hut space and their organization in general as well!
The quote from the novelization is from Yoda and his perspective, about himself. He didn't evolve, or grow more powerful, and neither did most of the other Jedi. But that isn't true of at least three other Jedi at the time, Mace, Qui-Gon, and Anakin. We know this because Mace was in touch with the Dark side in ways most or all of the other Jedi were not. It was part of him and his particular strength and style. So in a way, just as the Sith had studied Jedi lore and had become very familiar with it, so had Mace done with the Dark side. It was for this reason that he was able to defeat, yes actually defeat, Sidious. Beside the fact that Mace was an extraordinarily powerful Jedi and skilled saber fighter.
Also, we know that Yoda's knowledge of the Force was substantially limited in certain ways, when we learn that Qui-Gon, who had been refused membership on the Council, knew and understood certain aspects of it so well that he became Yoda's master after Clone Wars. He knew and understood things that Yoda and the rest of the Council apparently had no knowledge of (except for maybe Mace and Obi-Wan).
There's another quote, either from a novelization or from Lucas himself, that said that at that time there were only three Jedi who could actually stand a chance at defeating Sidious, and they are Mace, Yoda, and Anakin.
Anakin had already fallen to the Dark side specifically to learn Sidious's Dark knowledge, so he wasn't going to even try to defeat him. Yoda tried, but he failed because his strength and knowledge of the Force was not suitable to dealing with someone like Sidious. And Mace actually defeated him, but didn't ultimately succeed because he was betrayed by Anakin.
I do agree that it's possible that the duel was, at least in part, meant to help lure Anakin further into the Dark side, as well as to get rid of key members of the Jedi Council. But I also think that Sidious thought he could actually defeat Mace during the duel. Or if nothing else, he thought he could fry Mace with his Force lightning. But I don't think he counted on Mace being able to use his Dark power against him. I think that, at that moment, he genuinely was afraid of being killed by Mace. Sidious was a master deceiver and manipulator, yes, but he wasn't infallible. If he was trying to use Mace's fear against him, he failed, because Mace had already dealt with and overcome his own fear during his journey through the Dark side and his path toward become the Jedi Master he was. That battle had been fought and won by Mace many years before this particular battle.
Because The Senate Did Not Take A Seat
Until I started watching your channel, I had no idea how powerful Palpatine was, I always considered him weaker than Jedi and Vader because of the reason he always hid in the shadows, but now realize that he could have taken the entire Jedi council single handedly in a duel. He was seriously downplayed in the prequel trilogy.
Wrong! Windu was about to kill him! Also, if Yoda wasn't on the edge of the pod, he would have killed him too. George Lucas said Windu and Yoda were the only Jedi capable of dealing with Sidious let alone kill him. George also said Windu won the fight. Mace wasn't just a regular Jedi. He was Jedi how basically was Grey or balanced Jedi who used the light and dark. Think about this! Anakin throughout Clone wars had encounters were he embraced the darkside but returned to the light. We saw this with the sand people, Dooku and etc. Anakin and Mace were basically the same type of people. If Mace had embraced the darkside in his battle against Sidious, that battle would have been over quicker. Windu was the best force wielding warrior of that era including Anakin and one of the best warriors in Star Wars history.
Except that Sidious is a psychopath, and therefore feels little to no fear, even if his life is on the line. Not saying Sidious didn´t plan on letting Mace disarm him and allowing him to overpower him temporarily to appear vulnerable to Anakin, but this argument won´t stand.
amazing vídeo . that makes sense .
Thank you very much Bob. I greatly appreciate the support and I am happy to hear that you enjoyed it. Thank you for watching!
Gonna make the video shorter, Anakin chopped off his hand, the hand with his lightsaber.
Considering the you know, CREATOR said he won, he won. Cry more
Exactly right. I agree completely with this video.
Mace defeated Sidious in the duel. Even George Lucas confirmed it. Mace also used his 7th form variant Vaapad to redirect the dark side back at Sidious. This is why sidious had those deranged looks and strikes toward the end of the duel.
Silly rabbit, Yoda was powerful then Mace and not even he could beat Sidious. Plus you actually believe a sith lord would beg for his life.
@@limitlesscoins1226 silly rabbit? Sounds like pedo shit to say. George Lucas even said Mace won the duel.
@@mattburke5491 Lol you guys always want to bring up George Lucas but never drop a source. Nice try rabbit, but tricks are for kids.
@@limitlesscoins1226 Its on the extra 2nd DVD of Revenge of the Sith!
@arronfrazier7873 Oh you mean the one where Gerorge says that Sidious PRETENDS TO LOSE HIS POWER. Mace is overrated.
George Lucas said Mace defeated Sidious and Sidious was on the run from Yoda in their duel
Shaun Rosenberg You cant explain this to the deaf,dumb,an blind.
And Lucas also, approved the publication of the book which states that Sidious was in control of the situation. So how is possible for Lucas to believe that Mace won while the book says he did not? Lucas contradicts himself a lot, and that a well known fact But the book is certainly more serious to be taken into account than just a quote. So, yeah, Mace was toyed...and badly!
Where did he say Palpatine was running from Yoda.
Also he never said that Mace defeated Sidious, he confirmed that Mace legitimately disarmed Sidious, which was never in question. He further said on the DVD commentary that Palpatine was only pretending to loose his powers to get Anakin on the dark side.
Emperor Palpatine Leland Chee, the guy who helped run Continuity, stated that the novel depiction of the duel wasn't canon...so...yeah...plus sources such as the CSWE, the Databank, the Galactic Files of the Trading card game, the Lightsaber book by Hidalgo, all state Windu legitmately overpowered Palpatine in the saber portion of the duel...you know, which is also confirmed by Lucas in the DVD commentary.
Ofc Mace didnt defeat Palps; the duel wasnt supposed to look like it did in the film. It was changed due to the "stunt-fighter" was sick at the time of recording. That is why the duel looks so terrible in the film. The stunt-fighter also said that Palps would have creamed Mace.
In the actual duel, Palps is toying with Mace and just waits for Ani to show up to play the victim; so that the jedi would look like the traitors Palpie always claimed them to be.
You're wrong, you don't believe me go ask George Lucas
and there you have it
SWRC, Palpatine clearly outmatched the other Jedi Masters. How do you think the battle would have gone if Palpatine had no reason to draw out the battle with Mace? Clearly you believe Mace would lose, but how quickly? How long do you think Mace would be able to delay his death with Vaapad?
Wrong, Dooku was always the best duelist in the order when he was still a member, better than Windu.
THE SITH ALWAYS KILL EACH OTHER THE BETRAYE EACH OTHER ALWAYS ,THEY ARE SO WICKED
He DID defeat palpatine. Georgr said he did. So yea. Palp KNEW he would lose. Which is why he chose when he did to reveal to anakin his status as a sith lord. He knew most of the masters were off world. He knew anakin would tell, and mace would answer being among the only masters around, and he knew with mace windus vapaad directing his dark energy back at him, he would lose, to windu, and only windu, forcing anakin to step in, creating the perfect opportunity to snag him, destroy his biggest opponent besides yoda and opening up the chance to issue order 66. He could see the future dont forget. Palp was a master of planning ans the long term wait if anything. EVERYTHING even his losses were carefully calculated.
Except mace windu did evolve, he changed. His new light saber fighting form that he created to channel his inner darkness and his opponates. He had to enjoy the fight to get the most out of his ability. Considering the inner darkness of sidious, and the fact that he was fighting for everything he loved and stood for, I believe mace legitimently won the duel.
Yoda gave up too easily,he could have cloaked his presence in the force and ambushed Sidious after he fell instead of running away,I don't think mace would have fled from Sidious,people will disagree but that's just my opinion.
this is so great
who else watches him talk in 1.25 speed?
Both the will of the cosmic Force and the Sith Rule of 2 already determined that the sith would win. And that means that if annie hadnt come sidious wouldve outsmarted and killed mace.
The force wasnt on maces side. Yoda knows it as well
Anakin's role in Palpatine's duel with Mace Windu is far too convenient for it all to have happened by chance; on the other hand, the events are far too complex to have all been planned out. Although there's been no official answer, the truth is probably a balance between the two: Palpatine, an expert manipulator, set up a situation to his advantage, then reacted to the unpredictable elements with excellent fighting skills and quick thinking.
@arronnovalso true
@arronnov aha palpatine wasn't afraid of windu he felt insulted when mace assumed so.
Yes he despised the jedi.
Yoda was more of a heated rival.
He feared luke though bc unlike others he wasn't familiar with luke
Also as much as he is selfless, there is a shadow to every trait. His selfishness caught up
@arronnov I agree with rest but not on palps fearing mace
I think l'm a little slow. It just sinked in, the Mandalorian Wars were just made Canon last night. Isn't that right?
He was toying with Mace windu
Sidious would have blasted him if it came down to it; I think his vulnerability was never really them but as a presentation and test for Anakin
Mace won the duel. Lucas even said so. You are wrong on this one.
Jonathan Baldridge When did he say that?
Lucas NEVER said that. He said that Mace disarmed Sidious. But he ALSO said that Sidious was merely faking his weakness.
Jonathan Baldridge
All George Lucas stated was that Mace Windu won the duel against Darth Sidious, which is perfectly obvious from watching the movie. He didn't say how he managed to do so.
Lets just get this written in a sentence.
"Palpatine couldn't have lost to mace because it means darth banes plan wouldn't have succeeded"
Yeah that isnt a valid argument, I think you need more than this. mace's vapad style perfectly counters the dark side user, its specifically designed to become stronger with the darkness of the opponent, thats why palpatine lost. As for Yoda his fighting style isn't his strongest attribute, he simply was not cut out for saber on saber fights no matter how powerful he was, mace was the stronger duelist of the two.
What Yoda realized is that Palpatine's use of the force matched Yoda's meaning it would always be a stalemate between the two, it required a duelist (cough Vader cough mace cough) to face down the power palpatine commanded.
I simply disagree on your premise and several of the reasons you have given as easily interpreted to support any argument that can be made.
Lets just summary here, palpatine and Yoda are force users not duelists so a fight between them rests on luck. A fight between a trained duelist and a force user like palpatine always ends with the duelist winning. Thrown objects can be avoided or redirected, force lightning can be countered with a saber, force push can be countered with a force push. Mace was perfectly placed to defeat palpatine, but Anakin intervened, without that intervention palpatine would have died there a victim of his own lightning, which btw he could just stop doing.
This actually bugs me a little now I mention it, if I was Anakin in that place I would have shouted "JUST STOP WITH THE FORCE LIGHTNING IT AINT WORKING OK", its another example of how the execution and story falls apart at the seems, you pull a loose thread and suddenly everything is ruined.
The prequels were almost brilliant but somehow it failed, with a few minor tweaks you wouldn't be left wondering why Anakin thinks the Jedi turned on him. I mean you could, i stress could, stretch it to say that mace Windu turned against him by ignoring him when he tried to stop mace killing palpatine. The problem with this is that doesn't in any way equal Yoda, obi wan, Ahsoka and the others were turning on him.
Yet he claims "the Jedi" turned on him, its implied to mean the entire order. I kind of forgot what I was talking about so Im going to read up and figure out how to finish this in a moment. Yeah I guess I'm done apparently, so...9/11 was an inside job.
although i highly respect your opinions and views on star wars and usually agree I have to disagree with this one. i think that mace would have beaten sidious simple because of mace windu's mastery of vapaad and shatter point. vapaad allowed him to channel sidious's energy and shatter point helped reveal weaknesses in the force around or on/in a target (to my understanding). however i think sidious had heavily relied on Anakin arriving. i believe that if Anakin didn't arrive and palpatine didn't rely on Anakin for his plan and was surprised ambushed by the Jedi the battle would have lasted longer but with similar outcomes minus Anakin attacking windu
He was not ambushed at all. In the novelization, Palpatine senses the Jedi coming to his office, moment after they got out of the Temple and that's the reason by the way that he sensed Anakin coming and pretended defeat. If he was indeed facing a real threat he could have used his powerful Force abilities such as Force Storm or Maelstrom which were able to annihilate entire fleets. You think that if he was facing a real threat he wouldn't have used them against Mace? Obviously not, he was just toying him. Also Vapaad, as Mace *himself* states in the book, could not defeat Sidious alone and would only into a stalemate. Thus, the reasons are obvious, Mace was toyed, and that's the reason he lost.
Emperor Palpatine and if Anakin had not come i believe mace windu would have bested ,at the least, the dark lord of the sith
[Anonymous] Retro You might believe it, but it wouldn't have happened, facts are talking by themselves...
Emperor Palpatine the facts how so? vapaad allows mace to channel the dark side energy's! if Anakin hadn't come and the battle continued with palpatine knowing this the battle would have lasted alot longer but would have resulted in a victory for mace
Again, read the novelization where Mace *himself* believes that Vapaad is not enough to defeat Sidious and could only to a stalemate...Mace himself! Also, as I said before but you probably, ignored, have you heard about Force maelstrom or Force Storm? Probably, not because was incapable of dealing with such powerful abilities, since he would barely hold the Force lightning. So, yeah, the facts are talking by themselves...