130 - Joe Rigney Responds to Ligon Duncan and the “Moscow Mood”
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- čas přidán 12. 07. 2024
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Full interview with Ligon Duncan on “Room for Nuance” - • Thoughts on Theonomy &...
Clip re: Moscow Mood - • Mocking and Slander Is...
“Leadership and Emotional Sabotage” - amzn.to/4avC7s0
Joe Rigney on Twitter - / joe_rigney
“Jesus Has AIDS” - www.russellmoore.com/2009/12/...
Summary
In this episode, Chase Davis and Joe Rigney discuss the interview with Ligon Duncan and the concept of the Moscow Mood. They explore the contrasting attitudes towards different opponents and the use of mockery and caricature. They also delve into the inner circle dynamics and the exclusionary nature of Big Eva. The conversation highlights the attraction to inner rings and the prevention of face-to-face interaction. They conclude by examining the motive behind the slapdown and the refusal to engage in meaningful conversation. The conversation explores the importance of inviting different voices and engaging with different perspectives, even if there is a lack of reciprocity. It highlights the dangers of dignifying every error and the need for clarity over nuance. The conversation also discusses the currency of credibility and the transition from a neutral to a negative world. It emphasizes the importance of courage and the recognition that leaders will make mistakes. Ultimately, the conversation encourages trust in the Lord and Jesus as the ultimate source of guidance.
Takeaways
Invite different voices and engage with different perspectives, even if there is a lack of reciprocity.
Be cautious of dignifying every error and focus on clarity rather than nuance.
Recognize the currency of credibility and the transition from a neutral to a negative world.
Have the courage to speak up and make mistakes, trusting in the Lord and Jesus as the ultimate source of guidance.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background
01:00 Discussing Ligon Duncan and the Moscow Mood
03:47 The Use of Mockery and Caricature
06:09 The Irony of Criticizing Moscow Mood
07:11 The Inner Circle and Exclusion
09:21 The Duplicity of Big Eva
11:28 The Attraction to Inner Rings
21:12 The Evangelical Industrial Complex
25:17 The Inner Ring and Human Nature
28:24 The Motive Behind the Slapdown
34:35 Refusing Face-to-Face Conversation
35:18 Inviting Different Voices
36:08 The Lack of Reciprocity
36:59 Engaging with Different Perspectives
37:26 The Importance of Engagement
38:21 The Dangers of Dignifying Every Error
39:20 Paul's Response to Mistaken Identity
40:19 The Number of Times in Acts
41:16 The Mistaken Identity of Paul and the Apostles
41:45 The Currency of Credibility
45:08 The Inconsistency of Criticism
46:23 The Ritual Denunciation Strategy
48:23 Transitioning from Neutral to Negative World
49:48 The Incentive Structure of Ritual Denunciation
50:47 The Importance of Courage in Negative World
52:36 The Importance of Clarity over Nuance
54:31 The Apprehension of Trusting Leaders
57:10 Different Approaches Based on Community Context
59:05 Learning from Mistakes and Developing Faithfulness
01:03:48 Trust in the Lord and Jesus
I think one way Moscow and Apología can go a long way in helping others get into the "mood" is by not wearing baseball caps backwards indoors!! 😊
U guys are great. So happy to see some smart courageous MEN
This was an edifying conversation. Thank you!
Every time I come across another response to Ligon Duncan I'm tempted to skip it because I've listened to all so far but I'm learning more with each one. Such principles men. Paul said there must be divisions among the church so that those who are approved may be recognized (1Cor 11:19). That is what is happening here!
This was awesome! Great conversation. I enjoy how gracious you both were to those you may disagree with. Keep being faithful and thank you again for your encouragement!
Great interview... Glad I stuck through the whole thing.
Love the honesty and vulnerability of the host and of Joe Rigney.......Never heard Joe Rigney talk for this long.
Really appreciate how Joe Rigney spoke so respectfully and well of John Piper.
Maybe the best discussion of this whole Ligon Duncan thing I've seen (maybe other than Doug Wilson's response article/video).
Really good and interesting and enlightening.
This interview pretty much tied the bow on this whole Ligon Duncan thing for me... I feel like I'm pretty much up to speed on the situation and can move on!
Something I appreciate about the Moscow crew is that when they see an issue, they name names and show receipts. This isn't a matter of feeding my deep-seated desire for controversy; it gives me a chance to evaluate the claims myself. Duncan, at least in this interview, is exactly the opposite, just like most of the rest of Big Eva (with the notable exception of KDY's otherwise-abysmal piece). And thus he gets to lob his grenades indiscriminately while maintaining plausible deniability--"oh no, Joe, I didn't mean *you."* And I as a listener of his have to either believe him on faith, or not.
And my willingness to believe him on faith is, shall we say, lessened, when he makes face-plantingly false statements of fact, like that the abolition movement just began after the _Dobbs_ decision, or that Chinese Christians don't have any concept that their government is subject to the lordship of Jesus Christ (as Wang Yi rots in prison for preaching exactly that thing). Oh, and that "they" wouldn't last three seconds in a room with someome (whom he never bothers to name), but then he declines the invitation to visit.
Thanks Chase for saying what I’ve been thinking about these guys 54:00
Rosaria Butterfield was on the podcast and she called out (in a kind and loving way) Demars for the name of his podcast too. As a former college English professor, she gave him some good feedback. Great interview Pastors. Thank you!
fantastic brothers.
Great conversation. As a Muscovite, it was refreshing to hear Rigney's gracious response to Duncan.
As a self-admitted Muscovite can you explain to me how Baptists beliefs caused transgenderism?
@@RecalledtoLife lol, the idea is that our fundamental identity is a Christian. We are born Americans or w/e nationality, we are born with a given last name, but the most fundamental thing about us is chosen by us, not given to us. If our most basic identity is chosen and not given (this includes our nature) then reasoning down we can choose any identity and our nature then means nothing but what we will it to be.
@@Christ_is_King1646 Nice try but you didn't answer the question. "Reasoning down" is a non-starter.
@@RecalledtoLife ok if you say so but, reasoning down is how the higher things, the first principles, are worked out in daily life. That's how the church shapes culture. Like how the misguided view of subordinationism works itself out in to a totalitarian view of the state.
@@RecalledtoLife so a more direct answer to your question is that identity is chosen and our nature is a product of our will as opposed to both being given to us by God. I don't know how I can make that clearer, but I can try if you have a specific question about what I said.
In my opinion, Duncan is in spiritual declension and that's why he's responding this way. If he were spiritually healthy, he would display grace.
Declension - A descending slope, a decent. My new word of the day.
Everyone leading during these fraught days would do well to remember 2Cor 5:10. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."
Thanks, brother - this is very good. Keep going!
At 19:50, I think of what you described in terms of a guild, with the older eatablished members playing gatekeeper. Junior aspiring folks need to fit a pattern before they’ll be let in.
This was fantastic!!
Could you do a podcast on how the Cross Politic guys "nuanced" the interview with Klaven? It was a big Wiff.
Incredible conversation with 2 Godly and faithful brothers!
Want to hear something rather amusing? To understand this, a bit of context will need to be established as it relates to my testimony in salvation which occurred recently in Nov of '22 . I'm a 48 year old guy, but between the ages of 10 and 15, I had been exposed to a sound Gospel. The brethren assembly I had attended, leaned Arminian in its soteriology. Note, I was not formally aware of either this term, nor any other theological terms. As a young boy, I would be pulled aside by good-faith elders asking "Are you saved yet?". I distinctly recalled my confusion, not in the fact pattern of the Gospel, nor the requirements of salvation (i.e. a personal exhibition of faith in Christ), but in the mechanics of how that all worked. As a consequence, as a young boy I had made a false profession of faith, namely due to a peer-pressure fueled by a desire to conform. At 15, I left the assembly and became a devout agnostic and it wouldn't be soon later until my alcoholism came into full force. At 30, I came into the rooms of AA and was told to hit my knees in prayer to petition God for help. I recall the distinct repulsion I had to that suggestion, an "anything but that" response, for I had deep resentments toward that assembly at the time. Left without options, I did as was suggested and God removed the compulsion to obsession to drink that week. That was back on April 4, 2007. This event changed me from an agnostic to a theist, and I have never since then lost sight that this was a divine miracle that I had been graced with. However, it wouldn't be for another 15 years until I was Graced with a salvation through Christ. It occurred, not while piously reading Scripture, but as I was heading down a darker road deeply immersed in sinful conduct. In that way, my experience was very much like Paul's in that I was heading in one direction and yanked 180 in another. Note, my salvation did not include the audible hearing of any voices or seeing any visions, so in that aspect it was not like Paul's conversion. I could go more into this, but I'm trying to get to an amusing punchline. Something miraculous had transpired in me which ended with a "It was Christ's Gospel all along?". I scrambled to the Scriptures to ascertain a clearer description of what transpired in me. I came to the Scriptures emptied of all preassumptions, of all former teachings and came into salvation with a Calvinistic understanding that had no labels for description.
So, as I continued my deeper dive into the NT, I also took to listening to several pastors online, who would include men like Jon MacArthur, RC Sproul, John Piper among a host of others. I find myself awed by the selection of men God had specifically put into my sphere. Among those men was someone by the name of Joe Rigney. I have never listened to a formal sermon from him; however, as an extra curricular exercise, I had taken to reading Jonathan Edwards treatise, "The End For Which God Created The World". At first attempt, I found the language a bit challenging and so I found a lesson hosted for free online by TGC, featuring Joe Rigney as the instructor. He was instrumental in setting up the framework for establishing an understanding in Edwards' work. With some time, I became more familiar with his eloquent use of language and my understanding of his work deepened and has had quite a profound impact on me.
So in my mind, TGC represented nothing other than the spirit of Joe's teaching in this course. It's the only exposure I've had with TGC and so you can imagine my head-scratching as I'm hearing about this organization having gone woke. Then, yesterday, I see a round-table discussion featuring Doug Wilson, a few others I'm not familiar with, and a host who strikes me as distinctly familiar. He's got a perfectly bald head, and so at first pass a vague familiarity strikes me; then he spoke. I recognized his voice and mannerisms immediately. This was the guy who taught me Edwards! And he's hanging with Doug Wilson! I don't know why, but I just find the whole thing a bit amusing for some reason, having been thrown into the middle of major tectonic shifts occurring within the evangelical space, and having to catch up on what's been transpiring over the last decade within these circles.
Anyway, I just wanted to thank Joe for the work he did in that course. It was really instrumental in establishing a God-centric understanding that touches and underpins all theological doctrines. I'm thrilled to know you're affiliated with Doug and as I think upon it, it makes perfect sense as to why. God Bless you and your family Joe! Love ya buddy!
Some use Nuance to Blur lines, often when things are simple and straight forward. Some use Nuance to draw lines (of clarity) when things are complex. I appreciated Joey’s critique of the word nuance. Clarity is a much better term.
I think people are being way too “kid gloves” with Duncan
Ha, Ha, AD has a SIX part series on Duncan. Every Reform podcaster has weighed in on this. Ad nauseum.
@@RecalledtoLife i know, I’ve seen most of them. Ad as usual getting closest to the weight of it
Despite Rigney’s association with John Piper, I’m beginning to have a deep appreciation for him.
O.K. Moore's exam question/"thought experiment" was very creepy. Doug's "Ride, Sally, Ride" is creepiness on steroids. All that "big boy" business. I'm just glad the movie never got made.
I guess I should give you credit that unlike Moore and Duncan and DeYoung you're more than happy to engage in these conversations...
Great idea to make interesting podcasts much shorter and more pithy - outlaw the use of "like" and "you know"...
Like, you know?!?
And "super"
Yeah to say someone can’t disciple their cat, that’s mocking 😂 and the fetal position thing. He clearly is ok with it, as long as he’s not the one it’s pointed at
Oh, come on guys. Doug and his buddies have said a lot worse. Who cares.
@@RecalledtoLife it’s not wrong, it’s just the hypocrisy of saying mockery is bad and then do it 5 min later
@@hammerbarca6 Well, let's all cry in our beer.
37:39 When Rod Dreher was trashing Moscow on-line I lost a lot of respect for him. I may be a little naive, but I believe in a big-tent Christianity and even though I don't fall into any theological camp with Pastor Wilson in Idaho, I find the whole reaction to him to be disgusting. It helps identify the Christians who will never fight for the faith if it puts them at odds with the culture. They take cheap shots at Moscow primarily to signal that they aren't the bad sort of Christian to people they want to stay in good graces with. I'm ex-Calvinist, was never presbyterian. I don't share Doug's eschatology, although I hold my eschatological views very loosely, and there are very limited eschatological views that I would close-handedly reject. But Doug gives a robust defense of Mere Christianity against clown world, and I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with any Christ follower who is willing to do that. I liked Rod Dreher's 'Live not by lies' book and I thought that was an indication that he was starting to understand the times we live in. Now I think he's a totally broken man, and he looks to be more of a cautionary tale of what to avoid. I don't relish his destruction. It scares the heck out of me to be honest. That wreckage could easily be me.
Rod Dreher speaks of being beaten up in school while the teachers laughed, and made money on the anti-Trump circuit. Dude is no bueno.
I don't disagree that Ligon was using caricature and mockery. I don't disagree Moscow does it too.
I despise its use inside the Body of Christ whenever I see it. Rules for Radicals has no place in the Body of Christ. Increasing factionalism is borderline heretical. Biting and Devouring fellow believers is reprehensible.
One day, we will all have to stand before Our Lord and answer for how we treated His Bride. I think we all would be better served by cherishing it as much as He does.
Out of curiosity, did you listen to the interview?
Amen. I don't understand why these podcasters spend the majority of their time blasting away at their brothers. (I don't think I have ever seen a reform podcaster warn of the growing dangers of Islam in America.)
Showed this to my sister. Her comment was, "Cry-Babies." She also wants to know, "Do y'all have cats and have you ever tried to discipline them?"
I don't get what all the hullabaloo is about. All the reform pod-jockeys have been indignantly sputtering into their Moscow approved scotch for days now. (I have seen the word "gay" and "effeminate" constantly lobbed at Duncan by the Wilson acolytes). It's weird.