Red Dot Forum Camera Talk: Leica M11 Monochrom
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- čas přidán 5. 05. 2023
- In this episode of Red Dot Forum Camera Talk, Leica experts Josh Lehrer and David Farkas are talking about the recently-introduced Leica M11 Monochrom. Now in its fourth generation, the M Monochrom gains all the technical advances of the M11 while offering the finest B&W imaging performance we've ever seen. Of course, don't just take our word for it. Josh has done extensive head-to-head testing to show how the new M11 Monochrom stacks up against the color M11 along with its predecessor, the M10 Monochrom. And David took the M11M for a test run in NYC where he put the new camera through its paces, with plenty of real-world sample images.
Read more about the new camera on Red Dot Forum here: rdf.to/M11M
Read David's in-depth review with tons of real-world sample images here: rdf.to/M11M-Review
Missed out on our previous livestreams? No problem. Watch all of our previous RDFCT episodes here: • Red Dot Forum Camera Talk
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Where to buy:
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Order the new Leica M11 Monochrom - lsm.to/M11M
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Josh, please do not discourage proper explanation of some effects, like the effect of the removal of the colour filters on the sensor. No need to dumb down everything, David's explanation was one of the best and more informative I have ever heard and it was much appreciated. You can have the simple explanation and the more advanced one side by side, so everyone is happy and can learn. Thanks for the great video.
I don't disagree in general...it's mainly time management, since we already have an episode that goes into great depth about the benefits of Leica Monochrom cameras and the technology behind them (and tons of fantastic articles that David has written on Red Dot Forum about it), I was mainly just trying to keep things moving along so we could answer as many M11 Monochrom questions as possible. We'll never be able to cover everything and anything in the 2 hours we allot to one show, but our back catalog of episodes and standalone videos covers quite a bit!
@@jlehrer1890 Understood, I was not aware of all the context. Thank you again for all the great content and I hope one day you do another one of your videos where you go out and shoot like this one czcams.com/video/ryBtnQZfUvs/video.html
@@Ad-eq3cu It's all good! We are grateful for the feedback. I do believe we'll have to revisit topics from older episodes soon to bring our newer viewers up to speed. So much more to come!
Great video again. Kudo’s to all three of you. Your channel is a must-watch for every Leica fan and owner. Two years ago I purchased a Q2M as a kind of EDC camera for personal work, next to my SL2 and SL2-S for professional studio work. Soon it became my absolute all-time fav camera. Yet, with an M10-R and an M7 in the bag as well, the M11M is sooo tempting… I’ll promised myself to wait for your review before making drastic and costly decisions ;-)
As always guys great content. I gave up my Harley Davidson for Leica. I ordered my M11M since I’m a predominantly B&W shooter. I can’t wait to get my hands on it.
Thanks! You can certainly take better photos with a Leica than a motorcycle...happy photographing!
Ha! Less likely to die with your M11M than riding your Harley.I am a motorcyclist from way back, please take my comment in the kindest way…
@@soarfm no worries, I agree with you and Josh. I debated the decision in a 3 part video series I recently uploaded.
Did you receive the M11M? If so, what do you think of it?
So many information about the Leica Monochrom cameras. And very nice and good presented. Great. Thank you.
Great contents Love the Leica monochrome. Thanks gentleman.
Yet another excellent episode.
Much appreciated!
Hi folks and thanks heaps for your videos! Love them!
A question. Have you noticed these crazy rolling shutter effects (that terribly distort and warp objects when moving, even quite slowly, and taking shots) on your copy/copies of M11M? I am comparing it with my Q2M that doesn't have the same issue to such an extent! I am really worried about how much of a distortion/warping my copy of M1M introduces! BTW, this is the first camera out of dozens of different mirrorless ones I have tested, where I have this problem with the electronic shutter! My jaw is now dropped down wide open, to say the least :). Thank you!
Thank you for the video, but what about the Q3 announced recently ? I look forward to see you guys talking about it. I'm a Q2M owner and bought the Q3. I'm waiting to get the Q3M when it'll be released so I'll have the perfect couple in my bag 😊😊
Great stream! Will David be releasing presets for importing M11M DNGs like he did for other cameras?
One comment I would really like in-request on button layout is can lock that three button beside display panel, so when in run and gun won’t bump into activation these button for unknown reason. What if we can set the sensitivity level on these back buttons to adjust for situation need.
Real nice and extremely informative! Thanks.
Thank you! We had fun making it.
@@jlehrer1890 I was the old guy on the street who said hello as you and your friend were leaving Leica Soho a couple of weeks ago. 🤣
@@richarddenise3886 Too funny! Was great running in to you. Hopefully you'll come see us in Miami sometime.
@@jlehrer1890 Seriously, I look forward to it! Have a great week/ month. 😉
The picture at 1:31:00 is amazing how much information was processed with that information out of the shadows. Is that same shot possible in a regular m11?
Driving away from Leica LA with a table top tripod to take with me to Europe, and then I hear you show off the LeoFoto. It’s certainly cheaper than what I got (which btw I also learned about from you). Any more to add about your LeoFoto - Model or specs? I think I see yours online. Thanks.
m11m images with lux35fleII in close focus are terrific
In general for M10 mono, It can capture a great detail on iso 12500, f16, around 30 to 125 shutter for jpg to a quick work on in LR for transfer and process on my iPhone.
I'm waiting for the Q3 livestream :)
Hi. I am looking to buy a M11, but have been seeing many negative reviews, latest review about two months ago, mainly about the camera locking up.
The review is by a photographer that does photography for a living and he’s on his fourth M11.
Should I be concerned?
My Monochrome is an M6 with Ilford HP5 and XP2 Super ❤
I love my M11M. Alongside the Q2M. Built in storage is heaven sent and more flexibility but also more effort to edit compared to M10M
When you guys compared the M11 mono to M10 Mono it appeared to me that the high ISO comparison showed less noise from the M10 Mono than the M11 Mono. Did anyone else notice that? You can clearly see it at 1:00:39 in the video after you dialed back the noise reduction on the m11 mono. You can also see it at 1:03:40 with the large DNG, there is clearly more noise in the M11 Mono. That concerned me so I’m hoping one of you can chime in.
We will be doing much more controlled ISO testing in the near future, just like we've done for the M246 and M10M. Each camera's files require different processing techniques to really get a more apples-to-apples comparison. The M11M files are much more open and flat to start. They can also take more noise reduction and sharpening without losing image quality or detail. Finding the right combination is an important step to getting the most out of the camera as possible.
But....based on real-world experience, the M11M does perform moderately better at higher ISO settings than the M10M. As we mentioned in the episode, the M11M seem much more dynamic and less mushy when shooting at ISO 20,000 and up. And they can take far more exposure boosting as well.
It was very noticeable and quite awkward actually. M10M did perform better. It concerns me. Even later in the video 1:06:35 , when recovering highlights we see quite an important amount of noise appearing in the shadows of the picture taken with M11M. And it foxed the black color completely. It looks like the post editing is actually required for the process and should be well balanced whereas even M11 B&Wshot (in this exemple) looks great straight away.
I agree with the observations here. With the M10M you can pull up shadows all day long and deep blacks stay black. I would be scared to death about losing that upgrading to the new camera.
@@geddonjt I wonder what’s going on. I really hope it is due to unbalanced software that could be improved in future updates…
Considering the M11M is based off of the M11 and the M10M is based off of the M10-R, we can draw similar parallels in relative performance. The M11 outperforms the M10-R at higher ISO settings, but not by a massive amount. And we expect the comparison between the M11M and M10M with optimized processing to yield the same improvement. The M11M files need a heavier-handed processing approach to reach their full potential, at least with the current iteration of M11M profile in LR.
Interestingly I'm seeing more horizontal banding with the M11M compared to the Q2M when pushing the DNG files at high ISOs.
Only just got the M11M so still experimenting on getting the best results for Street photo at night.
I hope this is close to what the M11-P will look like. I love the look of the M11M, but I can’t take the plunge to go B&W-only.
how do you tether the Leica m 11 monochrome by means of lightroom
Looking forward to thr M11 mono review and your photos. I miss not seeing your great Dog.... I wonder when you will do a Iceland Photo tour next time.
He's always there, asleep under the table. I'll have to get him up and awake to say hello on an episode soon!
I have a typ 246, bloody lovely camera. Renders great with my cron 50 v5, elmarit 28 and apo f2 90 🤘🙏
Can someone help me to understand this please? I HAVE to underexpose drastically to protect any highlights, BUT when I raise the expose by 2-3 stops in Lightroom then, I get a lot of noise, even at 6400 ISO (1:24:00 night shot)?
Have you tried using the new M11M adaptive ISO preset that we created? Should help with some of the higher ISO shots. rdf.to/LR-Presets
Also, check our full review on the M11 Monochrom on Red Dot Forum here for examples of higher ISO images pushed in LR. rdf.to/M11M-Review
On my M10 mono I can go up to iso 50000, f16 and 125, where I can do off finder snap work at night for street photography. And it is very useable. It is like the sunny 16 rule at late night.
Nice presentation, I find that the M11M files are even flat that the M10M and I find that both cameras require post processing to produce great looking photos.
Glad you enjoyed the show! There's SO much potential "hidden" in Leica M Monochrom camera files, from all generations. The post-production to bring out the magic can be just as fun as the picture taking itself.
@@jlehrer1890The best cameras are those that require very little post shoot editing; the fact that the M11M requires a lot of editing makes it a crap camera.
One thing is funny though. The newest Lightroom update brings DENOISE functionality and it's unbelievably good, so I wonder if I still need a monochrome camera (in regards to high noise only) 🙃
I look forward to testing the new Denoise feature in my upcoming ISO showdown and seeing what kind of gains we can get with all the cameras.
The amazing thing about Leica digital cameras, the M and the SL, is that they don't actually make 'better' cameras as they go along, but rather, match expectations of emergent audiences which keeps the brand alive and, one hopes, profitable. But buy the original M9 mono (which many, including me, still regard as the definitive model) or the M11 mono, you won't find at all that you can take better pictures. No wonder older M models (and now the SL) keep their appeal and their value. How wonderful it that - like a Jaguar E Type.
Fantastic car analogy and I couldn't agree more!
so, when you are doing street photography with the camera setup with auto ISO and Aperture priority, what shutter speed would you use for "general" street photography", not "action". Currently when using my M10P and M10M I have both set to 1/250 shutter, would you recommend using a faster shutter speed with the M11 and M11M ? If so what is the minimum shutter speed you would use with a 28mm or 35mm ? Thanks Harvey
In the end it will depend on the lens you're using, how fast you're moving the camera and how fast the subjects are moving, but 1/250 I would say is a great starting point on the M11 and M11M as it is on your M10-P and M10M.
@@jlehrer1890 thank you for your reply... H
Agree with Josh, 1/250th is a great starting point on most M cameras. For more static pictures, even 1/125th works fine up to 35mm. But, even for general street photography, if you have people moving quickly in front of you (side-to-side), 1/250th will not fully stop the movement. You'll be safer with 1/500th or even 1/1000th. Our advice is always to test this out for yourself and see what works.
@@RedDotForum thank you for your reply
Hello, thank you for the stream, could you please post the files you used for ISO performance comparison somewhere? Thanks
David will be doing another "ISO Showdown" including the M11 Monochrom on Red Dot Forum soon!
No doubt the M11M is a fantastic tool for making images, but it's super funny to me seeing the hosts get excited about basic quality-of-life features available on sub-$1000 cameras from other brands. Custom buttons, wow, so innovative.
I love your videos. How much difference did teh highlight weighted metering make when metering in mixed daylight conditions. The tendency to blow highlights and need to underexpose and then rely a lot on post annoyed me with the M10M.
Highlight weighted metering certainly helps, but doesn't tamp down the overall exposure enough in some instances. You'll still need to keep an eye on highlight warnings and adjust EV compensation accordingly. What I'd love to see are settings for highlight weighted metering. Example: 1) Balanced or 2) Total Highlight Protection. Given the delicacy of the highlights on the Monochrom, maybe Leica will tweak this metering mode in the future via firmware.
@@RedDotForum thank you so much! And thank you for your wonderful videos. I find these so enjoyable. Can I ask one more Q. Why is the Leica sensor so “sensitive” to highlight clipping (even in the more recent non monochrome M cameras to make the comparison easier) versus others (say Fuji medium format GFX 50R)? Is the shadow recovery greater in the Leica and it’s simply the way the sensors are “balanced”. Or something else. I only ask as I do sometimes like to share JPEGs quickly pre-post online as well and find the Leica ones are sometimes less suitable for doing this without some adjustments.
Learning everything there is to know about Leica M cameras is fun but also torturous as I’ll probably never own one 😅.
Great discussion! To visually see the highlights (or lack there of) in lightroom hold down the option key (on a mac) while adjusting the highlight slider. In the discussion and demonstrations of highlight detail it'll clearly show the difference in the files and what's recoverable or not; it works the same way with shadow detail as well.
very, very good
Sorry. Is it good to use the red filter on the monochrome m11? It doesn't affect the photo.
It does! You'll just see it better upon reviewing the image versus in the Visoflex 2.
The red filter is most dramatic with bright blue skies and sunny or broken cloud conditions. Think Ansel Adams. Inky-black skies and bright white foliage.
Hello from Singapore!
Can you help me understand the reasoning behind using color filter with a monochrome camera like this M11 Monochrome?
For some reason filters can't be added after making a exposure, only before making a exposure.
With the classic leica shoulder tripod and Visio flex, I can shoot in iso160 f2 90mm 1/8 in my M10 Mono with a very sharpe image. I mean reasonable for hand hold vintage glass. There is not a lot to carry base on M Principle, I can have 4 prime M lens one shoulder tripod and a 2M body on a Billington 6 Litre bag. And the bag still have room for wallet and extra battery. With a 10l litre I can add one more lens and a water bottle. Or a classic 135 2.8 with google.
Why buy this black and white camera if you can go to your menu and change the creative style settings to monochrome?
1:00:07
The M11 Monochrom is at 1/60 at f/11, the M10 Monochrom is at 1/60 at F4, that can't be an equivalent exposure.
M cameras don't have electronic apertures. The aperture in the metadata is an just an estimate by the camera based on an external ambient light meter that compares the reading to the internal meter. Sometimes it's relatively close. Other times, it's pretty far off. Here, since both cameras were shot at 1/60th at the same ISO, they are 100% the same exposure. Josh used the same f-stop for all images.
@@RedDotForum Oh, that totally makes sense. No electronic contact between the two so the camera is very much guessing. Thank you for the explanation!
With the removal of the 3 colour filters, why isn’t 64 the base ISO?
I mean more light is let in to begin with..
For a normal print it only need 16 pixel, this is where the very base of why the 135 mm print 10000 pixel point of leica document to make that decision, for the M11 crop mode, it is that for each crop can maintain in 16 in reason. that is the logic I understand why it is make for it in 3 resolution of pixel bounding
I love my Monochrom Type 246…. And it even does video although I don’t use it for that.
It's an awesome camera and we love it too. If you ever get the chance to try and shoot some B&W video, it is pretty cool!
For me (David), that was the one that really sold me on the Monochrom. Such a great camera.
I purchased an M11M and after 3 days I returned it as it was readily apparent I was going to have to spend a great deal more time in front of the computer to obtain even as good as photographs as out of my M10M. The M11M is a better camera operational wise, but for taking black and white photographs with a rangefinder IE: reportage camera it was a massive disappointment.
I know this ? is long after you published. What for you are the issues for the additional post work? TY
Yah, no, fersure... programmable "buttons?!" Not monochrome, per se,, but the M8 provides WB adjustment in Kelvin, & it's BnW is, um, CCD, not CMOS....
In normal photos up to 2000 iso, you will never see the difference between m11 and m11m. And earlier (m9 and m9m) it was immediately visible even at 200 iso. There is very little point in buying a highly specialized monochrome today. Better to buy x2d )))
¡Hola! Especial "even numbered Leica M bodies...M4, M6, M8, M10-D, & M10 Monocrom...so, M11 is odd, non?!
You are comparing different exposures!
M10M look better in all conditions
Nice camera but expensive
You're right. Too expensive. I'm looking towards Pixii, it has a native B&W mode and costs half.
This obsession with resolution is so bizarre. For me, the M10(M) is a better camera than the M11(M) because it has *lower* resolution.
I agree in a way, but as long as the extra resolution is not making it perform worse than its predecessor, I am happy.
@@jlehrer1890 It is though - you can’t beat physics. Smaller pixels don’t work as well. A camera dealer saying “you get something for nothing” over and over again so you buy from them doesn’t change that!
@@bluein2red423 for me, in the end, it is about the pictures. And the M11 Monochrom does not disappoint! Doesn't mean it's right for everyone of course. And we did discuss that during the show.
I watch a lot of these and Josh is, in the end, consistently irritatingly imposing and arrogant. Would be so frustrating to work alongside as a know it all colleague. Surprising choice as brand representative
I don't know, I'm not so bad, once you get to know me! Also I have a cute dog which cancels out the irritating imposingness, I am pretty sure...maybe Enzo just needs to make another appearance on the show soon.
come on... this makes the show entertaining. have you watched another 20 CZcams Leica channels that are so boring that you can fall asleep watching?
This comment is mean spirited. I wouldn’t want to match it with similar negativity, but you don’t seem very pleasingly passive or humble.
Because of Josh and David, I’ve bought the right cameras, at the right prices, and understand how to use them far more deeply than through the manuals or surveying other Leica sites. Great people. Maybe you need to consider other ways to spend your Saturday evenings than making yourself unhappy watching a two hour presentation given by someone whose personality bothers you.
I think Josh does a great job on the show!