Microsoft is Forcing me to Buy MacBooks - Windows Modern Standby
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- čas přidán 10. 05. 2024
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For the last THREE years Windows laptops have been plagued by terrible battery drain while the user ISN'T EVEN DOING ANYTHING. It's gotten to the point where we can't recommend using a Windows laptop because of Windows Modern Standby.
Discuss on the forum: linustechtips.com/topic/14717...
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CHAPTERS
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0:00 - The biggest problem with Windows Laptops
1:10 - Build Redux!
1:25 - The Problem with Modern Standby
3:30 - Project Athena & Instant Wake
4:57 - Why Alex switched to MacOS
6:04 - Potential Fixes
8:35 - But... Why?
10:25 - Vessi!
10:55 - Outro - Věda a technologie
Disclaimer: I'm a Software Engineer at Microsoft, but I do not work on the OS team. I'm only here as a viewer who is subscribed to the channel. I decided to test out your guys hypothesis and I was able to reproduce it! I setup a test where I had a laptop running Windows Powershell listening on a port while connected to power. Every time a client connected, I would print the time at which the connection was made. From another PC, I would send a packet to that laptop and see the message being printed out. I then put the laptop to sleep, and after five seconds I would send another packet to the laptop. I then waited a minute and resumed the laptop from sleep.
The following behavior would change depending on whether or not the laptop was connected to power while going to the Sleep S0 state:
- If the laptop was connected to power when I hit "Sleep", after resuming from Sleep I would see the powershell window with the messages printed out with the time at which the laptop was asleep
- If the laptop was NOT connected to power when I hit "Sleep", after resuming from Sleep I would see the powershell window with NO messages printed out
- The above behavior would not change independently of what I did with the power cable DURING sleep - that is, even if I removed the power cable during sleep, then sent new packets, after resuming from sleep (with the power cable still disconnected) I would see the messages printed out, meaning the laptop was S0 Network Connected even on battery. Bug reproduced. Btw, the opposite happens if I connect the laptop to power during S0 sleep (no messages are printed).
I will try to contact the OS team with your findings and my test setup :)
Thanks guys! This is great investigative journalism!
***
For reference, my laptop is a Dell Latitude 7420 running Windows 11 22621.819, default UEFI settings.
Powershell code for reference:
On the server (laptop):
```
> $Listener = [System.Net.Sockets.TcpListener]52134;
> $Listener.Start();
> while($true)
> {
> $client = $Listener.AcceptTcpClient();
> Write-Host("Connected at " + $(Get-Date));
> $client.Close();
> }
```
On the client (another pc on the same network):
```
> $hostIp = ""
> $port="52134"
> (new-object Net.Sockets.TcpClient).Connect($hostIp, $port)
```
Thanks for looking into this. Please give an update on this or if there are any workaround that the OS team recommends.
Since (i assume) they probably can't easily check the power state while in sleep: couldn't a simple check for the current power state whenever an update is triggered solve this issue quite easily, at least as a quick fix?
Like system is supposed to be updated -> wake system -> check power state -> 1. If plugged in continue 2. If not, update current power state and go back to sleep.
Well, now you just need to fix it :)
“You’re fired”
Oh wait - that’s twitter.
up up up , we need to up this
So Alex finally convinced you to make a full video about this. Good, let’s hope someone at Microsoft is actually listening.
My desktop has the issue and it’s awful, there’s no easy way to search up device ids and stuff when you call lastwake
all I can say is thank you. Hopefully this video spreads awareness until Microsoft has to do something otherwise they will lose revenue
Microsoft never seems to listen though lol.
I got a 4 year old support ticket about an unrelated issue and still didn't even get a response bruh. Not even a dismissal. MS sucks lol
Microsoft: "Finally someone wanted to do our work, now let's just hope they find a fix for it too. - Meanwhile we will just make our products worse, little by little."
Doubtful
I worked out the "unplug before lid close" thing a few years ago after having several near meltdowns, or having the CPU fan crank up full blast in the middle of the night. I figured it was just a simple power manager setting I had screwed up - but based off this video it is a more complex issue. Good work, detectives.
I’ve run into this so many times and also identified that it was consistently happening if I would close my laptop with the power connected. I have been unplugging, pausing to make sure it registered, and then closing the lid. As long as I do that I have no issues. This has been my solution for the last 4 years. I’ve recently have moved to a MacBook Air and am trying that after being a windows user for the last 30 years.
PLEASE keep the pressure on in short circuit and LTT videos, every single review of a Windows laptop should include a discussion of what sleep states it supports.
just buy an M1/M2 and enjoy 15-20hr of battery life
@@RandomUser2401 meh
You should not have to do that though, since this not even should be a problem.
@@jthoward sorry for naming better alternatives
@@RandomUser2401my M1 occasionally does the same thing. Take it out of my backpack and it’s dead
I've literally just been shutting down for years now. Don't even bother with sleep. This affects major companies too. Our IT department is constantly dealing with laptops that woke up in bags and fried themselves. It's crazy also that the modern sleep ignores temp limits.
This was my first thought as well. Why would you leave your laptop on sleep, unplugged, over a long period?
It's not as if a full startup takes much more than a minute anyway
@@eoinkenny3188some people just close their laptop and put it in a bag.
I have a recent, high spec Dell laptop for work. I never even contemplated just putting it to sleep when taking it home. I just assumed it wouldn't work as well as with Macs, and will always turn it off and reboot when I get home.
I guess I was right!
It's impossible to get people to do read or acknowledge but try to get them to remove the power cord turn off access to internet then put in bag won't get them to bec its herding cats but lol
@@eoinkenny3188 Exactly, I always shut down my windows laptop when I am not using it.
This is still a big problem 10 months later. One of my older machines uses S3 sleep with zero battery issues, the other (Asus Vivobook) uses S0 Connected Standby which rapidly drains the battery. To make matters worse, Hibernate causes huge driver issues upon waking (forcing S3 sleep via new registry trick also causes driver issues upon waking). The only option was to use registry hacks to disable Connected Standby and Hibernate and just use regular, non-connected S0 Modern Standby which still drains the battery at roughly 1% per hour. Better than 5-10% per hour.
This problem is way older than 3 years. The first time I heard of it was on the Microsoft Surface computer, so whenever the first of those was released was when it started.. Paul Thurrott brought it up a lot on the Windows Weekly Podcast.
Yeah I had it happen in my 2016 XPS 15. I tried to solve it back then and worked out that it had to do with automatic updates but even when disabling auto updates through settings and config it still happened. Later had it on a 2018 Razer Blade 15. I have now moved to Mac and never had this issue...
@@jockslifeatliftvideoproduc8528 MacBooks also have active sleep. Here is something you can try - pair a Bluetooth headphone with the MacBook, turn off the headphone, sleep the MacBook, then turn on the headphone. The MacBook will connect to it automatically.
MacBooks with M processors are just a lot more efficient in low power states than Intel, so it can easily be in active sleep for more than 24 hours on a full charge. The feature is on, but it doesn't annoy you.
Windows modern standby on the other hand can spin up fans and drain your battery in a few hours. Because Intel is not efficient, and because Microsoft didn't cap the CPU frequency.
The problem definitely started when Microsoft tried to push for the tablet-hybrid form factor with Surface. 2019 is when Microsoft and Intel instructed OEMs to turn off S3 sleep in the BIOS as shown in 7:46 so it happened for everybody.
Congratulations LMG Team, this might be the most important service video you've produced recently! I'm so glad it exists because I just got myself a laptop for the first time in 7-8 years and I'm a Windows user.
Did anyone figure out why iPhones where running slow? before new releases? I can't remember...
@@wembley636 Man, there was no reason for that. iPhones and Laptops are completely different markets. the LMG team is just putting out a PSA, not trying to start a war in the comments.
@@wembley636 Not sure what you're referring to specifically, but my guess would be that developers don't think about older devices as much, especially for smartphone devices since those get replaced so much more often. When developing for smartphones, I almost never consider performance, and just assume the user is using something relatively modern. There's also probably new updates coming along with new smartphone releases which contain more features, etc, that can slow down older devices.
On laptops/desktops the story is a bit different because the user could be running a multitude of programs and performance of/on them can vary quite substantially and will be kept in use for much longer, so optimization is much more important. I could be wrong, but I think that most phones generally freeze background applications to use less resources, which is another reason why optimization is not as big of a concern for the average developer.
edit: (punctuation)
My gaming laptop will wake me up some nights by randomly turning on with fans on overdrive.
This is probably one of the most important videos you guys have ever made. Almost nobody else has the time and resources to dedicate to something like this, THANK YOU for taking the initiative where Microsoft has failed.
Totally agree. This is getting shared within the Windows admin community like crazy. I think it's made so much noise that we might see a fix soon, I hope.
i think i have some stuff to add, pretty sure debian 10 or 11 had the "enable networking" option in the power setting though they may have since removed it (though it is still possible through command line witchcraft), most laptops are draining so quickly because the vent ports are covered when it is in the bag, causing the electrical components to heat up, increasing their electrical resistance, causing the laptop to require more power to run, also thanks to the Macbook, alot of laptops have their vents output right where the screen fold is, and this gap gets completely covered when the laptop screen is down. am usually able to get framework 12th gen to sleep properly by suspending then shutting the lid, but this has defiantly happened a few times before i started using that technique
I didnt realize this was a problem, though personally I have never liked using sleep or hibernate or standby modes due to having faced issues with various pcs not recovering from the mode every now and then, so I always turn off my laptops when not in use. I also use the ltsc versions of windows so that also removes the bloat and updating hassles.
I work in IT Support and get constant complaints over this stupid issue. I have over the past few years dug deeply into all of the fixes and registry settings you mentioned and also as you mentioned there is now virtually nothing i can do to help our users. For the people who seem to be constantly having this problem i have already moved them over to hibernate instead which so far they are happy with because at least they don’t open thier laptop back to a device that feels like it’s about to burst into flames with a battery that is nearly empty. This is a major issue with our laptop fleet and i hope this helps to push microsoft to get the issue resolved.
Microsoft won't care. There are bugs in Windows that I've found complaints of going back to windows XP... Which Microsoft has steadfastly *refused* to even acknowledge or fix.
100% I do the same for clients - I also work in IT and face this issue constantly.
Personally, for my laptop, I force myself to just shut it down every time and if I'm moving around the data centre, I simply keep it running (disable lid close actions etc), which is actually sad because I only get around 5 hours of battery with my razer blade stealth... And that's with me disabling the discreet GPU via device manager to force integrated GPU to extend battery life. Watching this video just makes me sad now knowing I'm forced to use such methods because it's just a stupid windows bug!
Another part of the problem is how people tend to use them. Take this scenario: You're using the laptop late in the day and battery pops up that it needs to be charged, so you plug it in, then finish up what you're working on. You close the laptop and go to sleep, letting it charge over night. The next day, you unplug it, throw it in your backpack and head out. This means that when you leave the house, your laptop is connected to your home network. The default action of a network device is to try to re-connect. Generally, the power to the device will ramp up under the assumption that the disconnect is due to interference not because you're driving away from it. In Windows machines, this corresponds to a ramp up in CPU energy as well, because you now have an active task that is attempting to reconnect to the network. Thus even if your laptop isn't applying an update, it can be a problem.
Phones and tablets generally do not have this problem because 1) if you loose local network connection, they will switch to 4G/5G and 2) if 4G/5G isn't available, they default to a lower power mode until they detect a signal from a tower. The only time they're in high power mode is when you're right on the edge of connectivity, where they can hear the tower but the tower can't hear you.
When i worked as a IT support that drove me crazy for my own PC, had to place it in a locker every night and when i came back to work in the morning it was dead or 5% left and very very hot. Now im using a macbook and havent charged it in 2 days with 8+ hours use every day.
I have a surface book and for some reason it just wakes up from hibernate by itself from time to time. So hibernate doesn't help much in my case. Trying to find out what causes it to wake up failed.
So happy to see you take this up on behalf of consumers. I've spent the last few years frustrated that nobody was making more noise about this. I'm still running an old XPS 13 with an 8th Gen processor for my laptop and this has been the most frustrating thing about it. Every-so-often I tried to fix it and finally a few months ago, after years of trying, I figured out the powercfg and registry hack you described in this video from some deeply buried forum posts on random websites. It's been like night and day since. I can close my laptop at night and the battery is exactly the same when I open it the next morning. It takes maybe 3 seconds to wake up instead of 1. I can't believe we have to suffer this broken functionality for the sake of saving 2 seconds when I open my laptop lid. I'm overdue an upgrade and will 100% check that my next laptop has the capability for S3 in the BIOS before buying it. I'm never going back to an always-on laptop.
I have the exact same model, and that's not the only issue
Now the battery is so beat up, it's basically useless unless it's plugged in
I have replaced the battery with an OEM one already and it's most of the time dead when I take it out of the bag, I suspect the heat just did its number on it
It straight up reaches 50-55 degrees in my bag on weekly basis
Good luck finding a laptop that has S3, none of the ones I looked at had it.
At least we now know that the Framework laptop has S3 and some Asus laptop, unfortunately which ones probably will be very hard to know without buying one
"So happy to see you take this up on behalf of consumers." That's because this is a common denominator and LTT's are ALSO consumers. I didn't hear the "Microsoft hasn't returned our call" comment. With LTT's pull I would think they would have a "inside number" to get a published statement addressing the issue. I also missed the "you don't have this issue with Linux" statement?
@@bjre.wa.8681 I mean, maybe in the Linux distribution you may choose have the S0 not using network, but no amount of Linux is going to give you suspend to ram S0 if it’s not supported on Firmware/BIOS and even though there is some blame to manufacturers, the main reason of the problem is Microsoft deleting suspend to RAM from the GUI plus a push from Intel to make the laptop more phone like
I had a Lenovo for work for my last job and that happened so often. I had to fly around the country for that job and would sometimes wonder why the battery was so low or why the laptop was so hot. This makes so much sense now. Happier with my MacBooks.
That is by far the best proposed reasoning for the broken standby issue. I generally use a high-end Windows laptop for work (loaded ZBook Fury currently) and for years now I've noticed the "standby but goes dead and overheats in my bag" issue. I actually blamed our IT folks, (assuming they installed some bloatware that breaks standby), switched lid closed to hibernate and went on with my life... albeit with substantially slower wakeup times when I crack the lid on my machine in the morning. The weird bit to me was the fact that sometimes it worked perfectly... and your explanation makes complete sense since in my office and at home I always run these machines on docks (60-90 minute battery runtime even when new means you need to live near a power station)... so they'd have the issue... but if I'd been in a meeting before I left I'd have been on battery and NOT seen the issue.
Brilliant catch Linus... I take back all the bad things I've ever said about you.
@LTT I work in a large IT environment and used to manage the images for laptops/desktops in the environment. We spent MONTHS working directly with MS and HP fighting with this exact problem on Surface Tablets and HP Tablets. After months they finally acknowledged this as an issue and turns out it was related to wifi/network. It impacted machines worldwide, what a nightmare it was. We eventually gave up on them, but this issue started to crop up on laptops later as they started to support modern standby. There is actually a really good way to see exactly whats killing the battery using powercfg /sleepstudy I feel your pain with this one!
How do you prevent the laptops from automatically applying windows updates and restarting and losing all the work you have open, though? Hell half the time I close my laptop lid and it hibernates it just restarts and I lose all my stuff even when there WASN'T a windows update.
@@MajoraZ manually turn off wifi or put laptop in airplane mode before closing it. Or pull out the battery if it has a removeable battery
Windows often alreadfy has the updates downloaded locally, though, and if I remove the battery then I still lose all the work I have open
Microsoft: You guys do it, I am too lazy.
@@MajoraZ if it's hibernating you won't loose your work by pulling the battery. If it's sleeping then yes
The biggest problem with this power drain issue is that a closed hot and possibly enclosed laptop is that the heat and full draw down of the battery severely damages the battery. This could lead to an early battery replacement at best or a laptop fire at worst.
I'm 98% certain that the battery on my Asus pro duo is dead because of this. I often found it warm and with an empty battery when taking it out of my bag, so much so that I would try to always shut it down completely before I put it in my bag. Not very practical.
That’s the reason why they choose not to support it.
If a PC is turned off whilst it's CPU/GPU is still piping hot, does the lack of cooling damage the CPU/GPU?
Should we leave it idol for a minute to cool down?
Has happened to me several times and i am sure that is why my battery had to be replaced shortly after my 1yr warranty period expired.
I turn off all the sleep, standby, and hibernate options. Also, turned off that fast-startup mode. I want my laptop on when I'm using it and truly off when I'm not. Waiting an extra 30 sec for it to boot is not going to kill me.
I forced my Dell Precision 5570 to be in disconnected standby even on AC. It works most of the time, although the battery drains in standby are usually still "red" in powercfg /sleepstudy report. When I say most of the time I mean my last three attempts at standby resulted in a hot laptop hibernating itself after 15 minutes (due to draining 5-8% of battery). Sleep study report indicates that the drain is caused by "CPU C0 Time.Non-attributed Time". And the trail basically ends there, Google doesn't really know much about what "non-attributed time" could in fact be. There might be something in powercfg /requests and /requestoverride worth looking into.
Great video! I thought I’m the only facing this issue with hp fury book. It’s always super hot in my backpack. Now I know the hack. Unplug and then close the lid. I hope Microsoft and Laptop manufacturers comes to their senses on this crappy standby implementation.
Thanks Linus and his team on doing this great job on figuring out this lingering universal problem.
I've worked in computer repair for a long time and I've had random situations where customers tell me windows bricked itself while it was in a backpack. I've also had a windows laptop for years that was always dead whenever I needed to use it. I thought of everything. Bad proximity sensor not forcing proper sleep, trying to manage windows update scenarios so it updates when I want it to (doesn't work, windows does what it wants), and this explains several years of pain I couldn't figure out.
Imagine a useful tool, but it does what it wants...
I haven't had this issue in many years but I do have automatic updates set to disabled via group policy on my laptop. Hell, I made sure to get windows pro edition just to have access to configure windows update via group policy. I wonder if this affects the issue talked about in the video.
@@tonn333 wouldn't be a useful tool then, right?
That's the problem with modern windows: Microsoft treats every machine that runs it as their rightful property.
All these neat little settings you make are mainly just for show and can be overruled at no notice.
They've become so brazenly controlling, this shithole-softwaremaker!
@@LRM12o8 Oh it's pretty useful for making me more aquatinted with my furious side.
There is also another wonderful effect caused by this bug: on the Surface Pro machine if you close the lid, but left your Surface Pro plugged-in, the Windows decides to stop charging to prolong battery life (to not overcharge it), then it supposedly goes to sleep (because it is not powered anymore), but battery is still draining, because of the problem described in the video, then you open up a lid next morning to find that plugged-in Surface Pro is discharged.
Now THAT is some quality Microsoft logic ;)
ohhh so that's what's been happening to my computer
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
What’s even crazier is this is a surface. They are meant to be equivalent of macs, yet the craziest unfixable bugs I’ve seen originate from surface Laptops
I have this exact same issue with my Surface Book 2, it's unreal how bad it is.
This used to happen with my older 8th gen Intel Dell Inspiron and it also happened with my 9th gen Intel and 5th gen AMD gaming laptops. For this reason, I bought a MacBook Air M2 to use daily and kept the gaming laptop at home because it would drive me nuts and left me questioning whether my laptop would be charged in the morning.
I'm a big Windows and Mac user. I daily drive them both but in the last few years I've had the same reason time and time again. It's actually the reason I never use windows laptops; using both Win and Mac for desktop but only MacOS for laptops. Microsoft has a long way to go in terms of laptop based QOL. Hopefully this video serves as a wakeup call.
windows is shit when it comes to laptops. I'd say Mac OS and Linux are certainly the future of laptops. Tho yea Windows on PCs is great.
we'll see ... MS doesn't have the luxury of only worrying about covering a few sku's of hardware configurations so they always stuck in building for the mass maybe in a few more years there will be better solutions in terms of how technology has advanced
As a linux user, you actually helped fix a bug I've had since my last firmware update... The firmware update reset the sleep mode to S0 instead of S3 like it was before. Thanks! xD
So how did you revert it? xd
Fixes problem. Brags about it. Refuses to elaborate. Leaves
@@fuseteam I would guess he went into the bios and turned back on the sleep mode Linus talked about.
@@fuseteam You have to add "mem_sleep_default=deep" as a kernel parameter to force S3 sleep. Setting kernel parameters is done differently in different Linux distributions.
I also recommend looking up if your BIOS has an option for "Linux sleep" or S3 sleep, since that might work more consistently.
This makes so much sense. I will regularly be charging my laptop during a lecture after forgetting to the night before, closing the lid then unplugging and throwing my laptop in the very small, well insulated laptop pocket. Then, an hour or so later my back is noticablly warm what I am sitting on the train and sure enough, laptop is frigin melting, open it up, close it, and it seems to go away
I mean since you're Canadian, a warm back is probably a good thing lmao.
@@Guru_1092
Hey, some of them don't live in an arctic tundra.
@@Alias_AnybodyI walked to class in -28 feels like -40 yesterday, the warmth is nice, but doesnt do much.
This is just ridiculous and shouldn't even be a problem in this day and age of personal computing. Anyone else feel like Windows is moving backwards??
Ask Linux users if we think Windows (and even MacOS) is moving backward :)
Yep, typing this on my HP Envy x360 running Ubuntu 22.10, no problems on this end. Of course this came with Windows 11 but right after I bought the laptop I set it up to do dual boot into Ubuntu. Across my home office I can see my Win 11 Tower (no a laptop) and my Ubuntu 22.04 File Server Tower. I agree that Microsoft is moving BACKWARDS in time, lights are on but nobody is home... duuuuuuhhhhhhh.
I have been trying to work out my dad's problem with his laptop and this is it exactly! He kept asking me why it was sitting with the fans spinning up/down etc while supposedly asleep. He frequently puts it to sleep on AC and unplugs it later while he thinks it's asleep...
I work in IT support and over the past few years have wasted so much time trying to figure this out. I always had a hunch it was Windows as I have to unplug, then lock my laptop, then hit sleep 2 or 3 times for it to actually go to sleep and even then it's a gamble if it it'll work as normal or leave you with a hot dead laptop. It happens to me, users I support on HP, Lenovo, Dell, Acer, low end high end, new old hardware etc. When it happens so frequently that people have unconsciously developed routines to sleep their laptop, there's an issue. Thank you so so so so much for this video
I just figured out how I dodged that purely by chance: Notebooks *without* preinstalled Windows. Both do S3 only.
Yup, also work in IT support and had this issue for ages, seen it outright kill some Dell 2-in-1 laptops one of our clients had super annoying
I like the memory leak that windows causes in my VRam. It slowly is filled by the explorer.exe and dwm.exe
This is the most important video you've ever made. This has been plaguing me for many years now. I hope you can actually get them to fix this issue.
I’m not a huge fan of Linus, but this was a great video, and will be very helpful to me in the future. I will definitely try this tip.😊
yeah I've been doing your "fix" for 2 years because I often had the battery drain problem, and just figured it was a problem on my laptop, but didn't know it happened on all of them 😂. And I have to say it works for me, I unplug it and wait for like 5 seconds to be sure, then close the lid.
the solution is easy. make all actions while in sleep mode slow. cpu cores used: 1-4. max core speed at maybe a quarter, 1600 mhz should be sufficient and require much less power per processorcycle. i dont know if you can make ram and ring slower on the fly, but it should be considered as well. if the machine should behave like a phone when off, then it also should be reduced to the power consumption of a phone.
and then restrict what actions are ok for hibernate implementation, and design a signal that can put the laptop out from deeper hibernate, or into deeper hibernate, so it doesnt use much power, when u can turn of 3 of 4 cores
with the bigger battery a laptop should be able to be in sleep for a week or 2 before running low
The unplug power before closing the lid has been my solution for years. Seemed to me to be the only thing different between a dead battery or a usable laptop.
Yep, figured that out after a while too... Also make sure you don't have any youtube or other video-playing tabs open, even if the video is finished or stopped...
@@Prophes0r or shutting down, on my laptop I find it no faster to hibernate and sometime I get weird problems when I haven't properly shut it down in a while
Usable not to mention damn near catching on fire. while I’m in the other room oblivious to the fact my fans are full bore. Trying to vacuum my bed for me.
You are lucky, on my modern standby machine, if I sleep it in S0 disconnected it actually drains faster (~20W over 5 hours) than if I just left it running with lid closed in the first place! (~15W over 6+ hours) so I just keep it open all the time and turn on low power mode when wanting it to 'sleep'.
So it was for me, I mean windows gives you possibility to set different actions to happen on lid close depending if it's plugged or not, so for me it actually seems like expected behaviour if you are closing laptop in plugged state and put it to sleep why would you expect it to behave in other way when you are unpluging already in-sleep laptop. State was saved on plugged-in configuration.
Chiming in as someone who used to work on Modern Standby implementation & compliance, it was a huge pain in the butt for everyone involved (including intel) and it seems it only got worse now. Hopefully with LTT shining some light on this, it can finally get resolved one way or another. I really miss proper sleep mode on my laptop.
Windows is for complete idiots. I run Mojave on my MacBook 2012 and never had a sleep problem. None of my macs have. Installed windows last week and locked onto diskchexk at start up. Only use windows for games. It designed by people who have no idea about usability whatsoever.
I have a gaming laptop and I just shutdown every time 🥲
@@Kye5000 yeah this
Sleep doesn't exist for me
@@Kye5000 Yup, my laptop from 2015 had weird behaviors about sleep from the very beginning. The only solution was to nuke any sleep options and use hard power off. Nowadays though, sleep isn't a problem for me at all, as my battery is dead af.
I always shutdown my work laptop a lenovo and when I open it the next day it lost 5% battery I cant imagine using standby mode I would loose for sure 30%
I have an i9 Macbook Pro and it has done this to me several times. I notice that it gets super hot all the time when the Onedrive sync client is running, constantly "Looking for changes" and eating up CPU. I have the network standby set to "Only on Power Adapter" and it still happens from time to time.
Had the same issue, I would literally wake to a burning hot machine and I thought maybe it was my laptop since its kinda old. Luckily, I noticed this was a windows specific issue because I had a dual boot install and everytime I closed the lid on windows, it would not come back on no matter what or how long I pressed the power button, while on Linux it was just fine. Switched completely to Linux since
Wow! This explains so much. I own a 10 year old MacBook and I almost never shut it down. I would just close it, go to my new destination, and then open it up and begin working where I left off. When the pandemic hit, we were issued Dell Windows laptops for work. I would do the same thing whenever I moved to work in a different location only to find my work laptop burning up my backpack and the fans going full blast. It is now standard practice for me to shut down my work laptop every time I move it to a different location to avoid starting a fire. Great video!
+Clinton Wood In all honesty, is that such a hard thing to do? If you're not gonna use the thing for a day or two, why don't you just turn it off, it's not gonna kill you to wait whole 20 seconds for laptop to power up and load OS.
@@guestimator121 You underestimate the quality of life improvements you've never had. Even before the more modern sleep issue outlined in the video, long time users of both mac and pc laptops will all tell you (yes I'm confidently speaking for all of them) that we generally never have to think twice about shutting the lid and knowing the mac will stay asleep, conserve battery, and fire right back up within ~1-2 seconds of opening, where no matter the brand or model, the PC side has been a crapshoot, and force users to accept shutting down first as a common practice.
@@KenOporto As someone who has been a user of both for 15 years: I wholly agree. I NEVER can trust a windows laptop to remain asleep anymore. Its maddening! My mom who uses Mac? Never has this issue.
@@KenOporto i guess you missed the part in the video where it suffers from the same problem on both platforms 😉 is great that you've avoided the problem due to your usage patterns, though
@@guestimator121 No, but why is it like this? Intel Macs can do it. It clearly doesn’t have to be this way per the video. Effectively, all Windows user paid for the hardware ability to have a proper Sleep mode, but the software won’t support it. There seems to be a lot of desire from these posts to have it fixed.
The amount of times my laptop has overheated in my backpack is insane
Mine too! I opened the backpack and was greeted by hot air, a faint smell of hot electronics and a battery that had burned 80% charge in four hours.
You shold buy a proper bag then!! LOL where is it supposed to exhaust that heat to from inside of a sealed bag! You are not supposed to just throw a conputer into a bag with stuff switched on still, that is why it's overheating not because it's poorly performing.
DELL is terrible on that...
@@DailyCorvidpc is suppose to be in extremely low power state you absolute buffoon
And it was better a while ago, somehow on Windows 11 it got WORSE, now it tries to go to hibernation and just ends up crashing on the way there.
WTF? For a long time, it worked fine... It went to standby, then after a while it silently switched to hibernation, no heat, nothing
Oh, the pain... I even remember when it started happening - as luck would have it, I had just switched to a new Dell laptop.
As a result, of course I blamed it on the hardware. Even taking the laptop into service a couple of times, because I suspected a false keypress or touchpad event was waking it up.
After a while, I just gave up. And some years later, I kept seeing the same issue on different laptops - that is when I realized this was actually on the software side...
In fact, since I keep my current laptop (a Lenovo Thinkpad) next to the bed, I often still hear the fans spinning up at night...
I noticed a while back that if I leave Microsoft Outlook or Teams running and turn off the network before sleeping that the network will be back on when I resume my MacBook Pro. My routine is to shutdown Outlook and Teams, then turn off Network, then Sleep the laptop.
You know what, can't lie, when the video started my initial reaction was "it can't be THAT bad". Then I remembered, I very rarely just close my laptop (let it sleep) anymore. Literally changed my power button to Hibernate so that I don't call into the issue of my computer not properly sleeping or going into hibernate when I close it!
I instead of trying to use it as a laptop, I use it as a desktop. I disabled fastboot, and use a complete shutdown and reboot if I am going to be away from my laptop over an hour.
@@fhs7838 Same, I also just completely shut it down. It's not that big of a deal for me because my laptop boots pretty fast, but I understand this would just be a workaround for a major underlying issue for most.
Not to mention hibernate isn't 100% foolproof either. But sleep is an absolute no brainer function to never use. My hibernate problem on W11 is that after pressing my hibernate power button I must turn off my mouse before pressing it. Otherwise I'll have my PC wake up after it finishes going into hibernation. I have W11 only for gaming purposes. If I didn't game and I do not need any weird legacy programs, I would daily drive a MacBook Pro all hands down. There's just no competition. Right to repair is a mess for all manufacturers but I had a true hate for Macs when they had butterfly switches.
@@HHalcyon ”I must turn off my mouse before pressing it“ I think it's more about BIOS settings. In desktop PCs, BIOS has settings to wake up by various event, including USB or PS/2. All PCs I use so far has been set not to wake up when I move my mouse. But I dont know laptop's BIOS has this settings.
Same, I stopped using sleep on laptop at all - only hibernate.
Because MS cannot figure out sleep...
This video and the USB 4 one from 3 days ago are the excellent kind of journalism I've come to expect from LTT. I wish them great success with Labs!
Thanks for the video. I have been fighting this one off and on for a few years now and this helps shed light on the problem. Hopefully now I have a workaround or two that will work going forward.
I think this may be the reason I developed the habit of shutting my laptop off before closing the lid. It may take a few seconds longer to boot up the next morning, but the battery lasted through the next day.
I am so glad that my Thinkpad X1 Carbon has a toggle in the bios to disable modern standby. Just putting Sleep State to »Linux« just fixes everything and it is just great 😊
LinusTechTips agrees that "switch to Linux" *is* a solution 😁
Lenovo bios engineers weren't lazy
As always Linux = Better
What you said: ......
What I read: Linux just fixes everything and it is just great.
@@J4ckKun Lenovo E15 gen 4 (Intel) engineers apparently were not. DIsplay fails to wake in Windows, but Ubuntu works fine. T14 gen 3 (AMD) had S3 option in firmware initially, bet was removed in an update. Was looking to get Lenovo as solution for this Modern Standby, but apparently it's not a reliable option. They just don't care.
There's a somewhat decent way of testing this. Get all of your laptops with Windows, wait until patch Tuesday, then test half unplugged and slept and half plugged in then slept and unplugged. It's a nearly guaranteed way of ensuring an update will happen and if you coordinate a ton of test laptops, you get a good sample set too.
Microsoft doesn't push all updates to all devices at once, though.
@@svgPhoenix That's the beauty of it though. You just leave them in sleep mode. If their hypothesis is correct, there's no need for them to all go off at the same time. But if you see that none of the laptops that were unplugged when slept exhibit the behavior and only ones from the other group do, it's a really strong correlation.
Great idea, I'd add to do it for several weeks alternating which laptops are in which test group
Why not take a fresh install which needs updates, so it should update…
It would be much easier if you have them in a domain and have a WSUS to control the updates. From which you can approve an update and will just wait for the laptop to grab it.
I had a dell xps 15 that would do this constantly. Some of it was down to windows constantly keeping the machine on for updates but most of the issue was a bad driver fingerprint reader driver that was keeping the machine awake constantly looking for a fingerprint.
I have never had problems with my laptop dying while s0ix sleeping. But what happened to me enough times to move over to s3 was that if the laptop slept for too long (>8hrs aprox) it would be unable to wake up. I opened the lid, the power button lights up for some 10 seconds with nothing on the display, then the power button flickers and the laptop starts up from zero. Literally booting from the ground up would be faster than waiting for the laptop to realize it cant wake up and force restart itself.
I actually had to set my laptop to go into 'hibernate' instead of sleep because I noticed it would keep waking and the fans would spin up while the lid was closed. I mostly did it because it was ANNOYING AS HELL while I was trying to sleep. Literally figured it was some annoying chip malfunctioning in the device rather than the OS. This answers a lot of questions.
What would hibernate do over sleep?
I did this too, didn’t knew it was microsoft. My laptop between classes got stupidly hot, and the battery degraded a lot faster for this reason.
Letting it on hibernate mostly solved the issue, specially since in my Legion y520 you can wake from suspend by clicking the keys (with no way to disable that i knew of) turning it on fully while in my backpack due to the plastic build and bend that clicked the keys while closed
Hybernate turns of the cpu and stores everything in the disk instead of ram, is a lot slower, but avoids the problems presented on this video
Could also be magnets, or something interfering with the sensor that causes the same problem, since I've had it happen to my non-intel laptop.
@@GrimAbstract It saves your battery. Other than that... They do exactly the same thing except your laptop takes 30 seconds to wake up rather than 3.
I always hated the part of windows that told it to wake up to update. Had a few instances where the battery was empty, but I found it more annoying when it was plugged in, because it'd usually be in my bedroom when I was trying to sleep, and my laptop is kinda loud (by nature, it's not dirty), and it would jolt me up. Battery draining issue stopped being a problem once the battery died though.
Microsoft is SO obsessed with forcing updates down our throats and I hate it
Sadly I've had it happen on Linux mint as well. Lenovo yoga 6.
A while back I used to have my main desktop setup in my bedroom and there were periods that for some reason it would basically always wake itself up sometimes every day for days, even after trying everything to get it to stop. My setup has 3 fairly large monitors and this was in a small room at the time so when that shit woke up it was like having a stadium light as a bed lamp. I searched high and low for a way to get it to stop doing it and never found anything, even completely turning off updates and preventing it from waking up at all didn't work.
Point being microsoft has always had really bad problems with their computers and sleep states.
@@Outwardpdt’s actually fixable if you’re resilient enough. In windows logs you can find a clue why the computer woke up from sleep mode, and practically disabling wake up for updates through terminal and switching off option to wake up in adapters settings fixes it. I was having that issue with windows desktop and was able to fight it. I switched back to Mac since then again though so my info might be outdated 😂
You can use O&O Shutup10 to stop the auto update entirely. I used it for almost 3 months now and I'm free from the annoying random Windows Update wakeup in the midnight
I found this out on my Dell when I checked the bandwidth usage of my home network. The secondary PC laptop was using as much bandwidth as my primary Mac laptop, even though I only use the PC every other week.
I have gone through 5 Dells in the past year because of this issue(5560/5570). They have been overheating in laptop bags and going into thermal shutdowns. Fire hazard hot, could easily heat frozen burritos in my laptop bag. ~140-160 degrees, too hot to handle when removing.
My latest laptop just had a battery replaced under warranty because it is at 60% capacity after 4 months of battery drain behavior while sleeping. A co-worker's new HP had a battery bloat and pop the laptop case when he took it out of his bag for a meeting, it was cooking in its sleep. I asked Dell who to contact after my house burns down. They replied with nervous laughter...
I work in IT and this finally articulates what I haven't been able to truly figure out. We support a company of a few hundred users and we've had many complaints about hot laptops in bags and poor battery life.
I've been unplugging my laptop and waiting a few seconds before closing it for a couple of years now and can confirm I almost never have this issue.
We have a user that disabled automatic sleep in favor of hibernate, and that works for him.
I can't prove it, but I feel certain that some of the premature ssd and motherboard failures we see left and right on our Dell laptops is due to how hot they get when they turn on in someone's backpack.
This problem is so stupid and ridiculous that it's even gone on this long. Big thanks to LTT for bringing this to light. Hopefully Microsoft gets their heads out of their asses and finally ends this nightmare.
It's truly insane that they allow themselves to operate at that temperature at all tbh. I'm shocked there haven't been more fires. It must also be such a warranty burden for Dell and the like as well.
I work in IT supporting about 1000 users and my solution, just like Linus, is to just use my MacBook. My Precision stays on my desk, plugged in, all the time. I'm this close to just getting rid of my Windows laptop and getting a desktop, if I need anything I can just RDP to it and we're good.
Shut down the laptop before you store it and TADAH it's fixed.
@@scottbuster7059 or.... Microsoft and Intel could unbreak the thing they broke that worked fine for 20 odd years before they broke it. How's that for a crazy idea?
I’ve been a Mac user for 10+ years and got my first windows laptop starting a new job last year. Having just closed my laptop for years so assumed I’d try and do the same. Was so confused about how hot it gets in my bag and the awful battery. Thanks for speaking about it
@@Prophes0r 🤓🤓🤓🤓
@@Prophes0r 🤓🤓🤓🤓
@@Prophes0r u didnt listen to him.... i'm only shutting down my Macbook for Updates, most of the time up it has an uptime for a few months... never had a problem
@@Prophes0r some of the most potent copium I’ve ever seen outside of the lab. L
@@eyomarc A few months? Damn. Without charging?
That sounds.. Unbelievable?
I always thought this was a dell issue. I loved my xps 15 9570 when I bought it in 2019 but about a year or two later I started having severe overheating problems while sleeping.
I thought it was due to the known thermal issues of the device paired with software neglect from Dell. I ultimately regretted taking the chance on the laptop even though it was a beast for about a year. The performance rapidly declined as the insides fried and now the thing can barely edit a photo in Lightroom on a bad day. I've resisted Mac for some time now but I need something reliable.
Yep!
And it also slows down to force the restart when you are in the middle of the workload.
Not mention sometimes when you “shutdown” the device, and it restarts…
Thank you for talking about this. So frustrating. I have a gaming laptop and the amount of times I close the lid for it to just straight up not sleep, or to wake itself after I put it to sleep is absolutely infuriating.
Have you tried hybernation? Its bit differnet than sleep .
1. Upon hybernation the windows save everything (like sleep) and shutdown the Pc/laptop. And yes you can set it up in the setting that when you close the lid instead of sleeping the laptop.will hybernate
Just turn off
I use a laptop as a desktop and I'm in the same boat. I close the lid and hear it power down, then walk by it later on and see my external mouse lit up and my computer is on. So weird !
@@360ModsandHacks You can configure the closing of lid as shutdown in the setting as default action.
@@umar2gud Yeah, hibernation if far better and more reliable. SSDs are so fast these days that there's no drawback either.
Genuinely extremely impressive work here. It's unacceptable that a bug like this has not been discovered internally by Microsoft or, worse, was just neglected upon discovery.
I think it was neglected
That's been Microsoft ever since Gates left.
People harp on him for what he currently does now, but at least he kept Microsoft in control, unlike the current executive team. The later moments of Windows 7, and not to mention Windows 8-11 is all the proof anyone needs of that.
Yeah, that is definitely NOT a bug, just like that 'feature' Photoshop has that does not free your ram after closing a file, in case you want to open the file again🙄
@@AceStrife Microsoft has many more fingers in many more pies and does rather well. It's lazy, and just factually wrong, to harp back to when Bill was in charge. He gave us Windows Vista after all.
@@flyingpanhandle ah, the glory days of vista. With the wonderful aero shizzle.
On topic, it’s probably just a case of neglecting the fact there is an issue until they really can’t get round it. Then they will solve it and make a big thing about the fact it’s solved.
I had this problem too with a Lenovo laptop. Unchecking all the „Allow this device to wake the computer“ for the network related devices worked for me.
One of the greatest videos that I have seen from LTT. Congratulations guys that was a great favor for our community. Keep that great work going.
I'm glad they did, but, they could have made tests to prove the issue related to network communication. A dude made a simple test in top comments, but they could have worked with other options that would also not require much time neither $$. Their vids are always from a 'geek' perspective, focusing on entertainment. IMO they could hire someone to make their vids more pro! A great example would be GN.
Just my thoughts, tho, no hate on LTT!! Vids like this one can make a difference for all users due to their visibility. Cheers!
I’m glad this has finally got its own video!
This issue has been the biggest bane of my life at work as an IT Admin, and has also caused high early failure rates of batteries on top of the battery life frustrations and burning etc.
Funnily enough, I had come to the same conclusion for a temporary resolution as you have, with removing power before sleep.
Hope Microsoft see this and finally get it sorted.
I never though people use laptops like that or use them on battery lol
I take it Vessi decided LTT saying "water resistant" in the sponsor spots was no longer acceptable. It shocked me a little to hear Jake say "Vessi says their shoes are 100% water proof."
They mentioned in a WAN show a while back that their compromise is to say “Vessi claims” instead of “their shoes are.” It still feels a bit weird though with how strongly Linus has been against anything being “waterproof” in the past
czcams.com/video/vKZXiQOO52I/video.html
They've talked about it. Either via the link or WAN-Show Nov, 18th @ 53:54
@@alexanderm9832
Something with a permanent opening (like a shoe, you know) can't be "waterproof" by definition anyway, even if the material technically is. I mean, nobody goes diving with rubber boots.
The thing I hated windows 7 through 9 the most is the crackling you hear in the speakers when doing tasks on the computer like opening a new website. I tired everything to fix it. Three news computers and new set of speakers and still the crackle. Switched to MacBook last year and the sound is so awesome and the loudest laptop speakers I ever heard. My friends said the laptop sounds like a high quality tv.
I've been dealing with this on my ROG Zephyrus G14 for like half a year now. Never got it fixed until recently, when I went into the registry and disabled S0. That basically nuked the computer's ability to sleep AT ALL, since none of the other sleep states are even available.
in CMD, powercfg /a showed on my computer that hibernate was not enabled, so I typed "powercfg /h ON"
Then, I went into the power settings and made it so that closing the lid or pressing the power button results in hibernate.
Also, my laptop had a tendency to shift into different power plans (I try to keep mine on high performance). So I straight up deleted all the power plans on the computer except Turbo mode.
Now, my laptop works as if it did on regular S3 sleep. This is because with SSDs, hibernate is no longer much slower (if at all) compared to S3.
There will probably be a slight bit of SSD degredation over the long term with this method since it has to dump your RAM into the SSD every time you hibernate it, but I doubt it will be a perceptible difference in longevity; in any case, I always back up/change my SSD every 3 years anyways, so I think I'm just going to do this with all future windows machines unless Microsoft gives us S3 back.
I'm very glad to hear that the Framework supports S3. They've consistently proven to put work into small features that matter to the consumer but don't show up on the spec sheet, and this is no exception.
I swear to god the only thing stopping me from buying a Framework is the lack of AMD chips. I need that sweet Ryzen balance of battery life+performance.
Unfortunately, S3 takes forever to sleep/wake on the Framework (at least, the 11th gen Intel version). It's probably as slow as booting up from cold, and you still get battery consumption in sleep.
This is my experience with Linux. I haven't looked into how it works on Windows.
I have a 12th gen FW, and lose over 50% in 24 hours in normal sleep (s0 disabled). I'm on my second mainboard and support is dog shit.
I have a custom spec Framework on my Christmas list, but even if that doesn’t work out, I’m still saving up to buy me a Framework!!! My MacBook is great, and I’ll still use it, but Framework (especially with my plan of installing Linux onto it) just seems like a perfect, 100% all creative workflow device for myself!
(My plan is to use my MacBook (and iPad) for various creative things like animation, video editing, etc. as well as general work, business, and related things. But for JUST personal projects, and especially for really diving into the various animation and video software that I have, such as Blender, OpenToonz, and the like, my Framework device will be my pure, dedicated, no nonsense creative machine that I’ll use to REALLY push my creative brain to the limit and then some!!! And with Framework being upgradable and modular…once the time is right…
Let’s just say, with two Laptops, and a tablet, and one of the laptops being the equivalent of a sleeper… I’m excited!!! GO FRAMEWORK!!!)
I’ll still look at more reviews though, because, yes! I love the concept of Framework, and from the few videos I’ve seen, it seems to be a pretty good Laptop, PLUS, when I was having trouble with the website, even when the problem turned out to be something on my end, the support was very very nice and understanding, and they did respond in a timely manner. It took a minute or so, if I recall correctly, but the support helped me through the issue, and did not seem judgmental at all when I replied that I found out it was on my end. That all being said, I still want to research more about the laptop, company, etc. and not base my decision on hype alone.
@@okatbikes4917no u
As a sysadmin… THANK YOU for covering this. I and many of the users I support have experienced this exact issue. The reproducible steps and “workaround” are insanely helpful. I will let the rest of the team know tomorrow.
Same! I have set a reminder to talk about it in our stand-up. We are starting a laptop refresh in the office and some of the new users are complaining about the heat and poor battery life already.
I had to spent HOURS last summer to "fix" this issue because our IT department was not able to sort this issue out.
@@TimurKazbekov i never had this issue. i configure my laptops to stay on, while on charger / docking station, bacause i will close the laptop as i dont use the internal screen, while in the office.
Ah best way is to update you bios and make shore that the power settings (prevent sleep while network connected is deactivated if you don't need you laptop to have s0 states awake check also wake timers
As far as my experience goes y never had any of that never had blue screen since XP era really i think is more like user fault mostly thy never update the drivers and the uefi and expect that cheap hardware to behave like flagship hp and asus are brands that y can recomend to be trusted rest y won't even touch
I would add another problem to the list. The battery charging level should be easily accessible to set the max charge level to say 60% while is used constantly in the plugged in mode, or to 80% or 100% for more mobile scenarios. The function may exist on some laptops but is difficult to access. 21 Century but these basic things are still not done correctly.
I do not trust sleep mode to put it in a bag or leave it unattended for more than 1 day.
I'm generally a Mac user, and most of the time I don't seem to have this issue, but I have noticed some cases where my MacBook Pro drains rapidly while asleep and in a backpack. I checked my settings just now, and my power options are both set to on power adapter only. However, I'm probably 50% likely to shut it with the charger still plugged in. Most recently I noticed this when I put my laptop in my bag to head to D&D night, and when I got there an hour latet, the laptop was already down to 20% and draining fast. Unfortunately, my unit also has issues where occasionally it just stops charging (likely a hardware problem, one of my thunderbolt ports is straight up dead, and the other has issues when charging through a USB expansion dongle... sometimes... I'll have to experiment and see how it goes. Thanks for bringing this concept to my attention.
Also, for anyone who's a longtime Windows user and has switched to Mac, welcome. Also, sorry.
LTT once again leaving a positive mark on the tech industry and very much proving why they're top dog on CZcams
xD
@@sunnyschramm9650 xdd
I mean sure, they could also just turn there laptop off and problem solved. Shouldn't need too but wow they are whiny babies.
All credits to Anthony.
@@GameRep101 just so they can keep up with their segues to their sponsors. LTT makes a content even on the most trivial topics just so they can create a content and push their sponsors into our noses.
Yeah, noticed that unplugging your laptop before sleeping was a lot more reliable. Basically we made recommendation to our users, but it is still ridiculous folks have to go through that. Thankfully most corporate workstations (Dell, HP, Lenovo) do support S3, but we have been fighting over general issue with our MS support for years! Thank you for bringing this up for better visibility. Whole thing is insane and inexcusable that its still going on.
My dell workstation still does this. Even if I unplug it before sleep. It makes me want to chuck it out a window because it will fire up and have the fans SCREAMING for no reason... Hibernate has been the solution, but even that crashes sometimes. 🤦♂
Whats really infuriating about this is that windows was supposed to be tha OS of majority and fixes like these shouldnt be a big deal, the thing should just work on this level, majority of people werent tech savy and wont even bother to investigate or find a fix of sleep battery drain, I myself had gave up before and just turn the damn thing completely off since its an era of SSD already but the hassle of reopening your tasks and works was a bummer
Been doing this for a while, but I still forget from time to time and it's always when I really need it 😅
It happens consistently on my machine.
I've got a lenovo 7th gen i7 and to stop this from happening, I tried everything and realised that the answer was to make power button hibernate, then i press it, let it hibernate before closing the lid. simply putting the hibernate button on close lid action wasn't enough for me. anything that triggers sleep or hibernate "automatically" causes this issue.
also, after this "state" is triggered, there's no way of coming back out of it on my machine, i pretty much have to hold down the power key to force a reboot
It's interesting to note that even the Intel Macbooks did very well with sleeping. The sleep disaster is purely caused by Microsoft. I used to close my intel macbook, wake up after a week to notice maybe a 5% battery drop. I know linus likes to blame intel/x86 in general, but this sleep problem is purely based out of Microsoft. I think Microsoft employees don't use Microsoft laptop for their daily work, else they would notice this. I heard a lot of them use Macintosh. This is a systemic problem with Microsoft. If linus and other windows users noticed it, why can't Microsoft employees notice it, including the one chatting here.
Windows has a built in tool called SleepStudy that breaks down exactly what was using modern standby recently. You might want to check it out. Running this immediately after a hot-bag incident should tell you exactly which program(s) caused it.
Also lovely that they say:
> Switching between S3 and Modern Standby cannot be done by changing a setting in the BIOS. *Switching the power model is not supported in Windows without a complete OS re-install.*
Amazing, whole Video without such knowledge
I think everyone is pretty confident it's windows update, it's not a question of how but why.
Lol, they disabled it without an os reinstall, they can add it back without a reinstall
I love how they say you cannot change it by BIOS settings, but you literally can on many laptops LOL
(Ironically on Lenovo machines at least, you have to switch the sleep mode to "Linux")
This is perhaps the best tech video I've watched in years and nails down a user experience I thought I was alone in. My Dell XPS 13 has been doing this for at least a few years now. It came time to replace it a week or so ago and I went with the Macbook Air M2 (24 GB / 1 TB). I can tell you that my decision took this super annoying battery drain into account and moving to the Mac laptop was a no-brainer. Linus (and team)... amazing work finding this bug and great job explaining it all. To Microsoft... Do you actually test Windows on devices your customers use or just blindly push it out and never truly understand the experience?
I have also used an XPS 13 for the last couple of years, and because of the poor thermal solution, the laptop gets really hot unless the air vent is completely unrestricted. Because of this, coupled with the constant charging and discharging of the laptop, as well as the terrible battery management software on dell's part, my battery (after only 2, and a bit, years) is at only 50% capacity, making it necessary to always have a charger with me if I want to use it, which defeats the whole point of it being a laptop.
Actually, yes they do just blindly push it out. Thats what happened almost a decade ago when they laid off the entire test team.
@@partialblackout Damn thats crazy. Thankfully my Asus zenbook is working perfectly since almost 2 years and never had any issues with battery life or thermals.
From what I've understood in passing, Microsoft killed a lot of their QA and automated testing in almost all of their production pipelines after Win7's success... No clue why
My Dell Inspiron has been experiencing this. My old Dell never had this problem. I have to manually put it into hibernation. I thought it was just me, and then my laptop model like Linus said. 😂
The hibernate feature works on most devices I tried it out on yet just fine and fast enough. I mean, you can wait 5-10 seconds while letting the system boot up, it doesn‘t kill you.
You can also activate it without closing the lid or pressing the power button through the windows menu, you just have to manually activate the button for it.
Still no reason to switch to a Mac, in my opinion.
This is not a bug, it is a feature. (I’m not joking)
Intel and Microsoft collaborated to make laptops more mobile-like in a push for new form factors. When you turn off screen on your phone and tablet, they still receive notifications and phone calls. Microsoft decided to do the same with active sleep and active WiFi connections. Intel actually pushed OEMs to turn off S3 sleep in the BIOS for laptops newer than 2019, intentionally, as shown in the video.
Apple by default also has active sleep on. But the M series processors are so power efficient you don't notice it. (It has more than once stole my Bluetooth headphone connection by auto connecting to it despite sleeping) On Intel Macbook you will occasionally wake up to a dead battery overnight.
Update here: Apple has set "Only on power adapter" to default in newer updates. Running MacOS Ventura 13.1
Can't speak to all of Linux, but Fedora 37 does not seem to have this issue.
This was lots of troubleshooting. Good on y'all.
Pop_OS! has it down too, laptop was on sleep for a week and it was still good to go
Arch on wayland, charge my laptop once a week and shut it down once a week too. I use it to study during the day and it sleeps during the night. No issues here, it wakes up insanely fast.
I use fedora and faced this issue a few weeks back. Are you sure?
@@aditya_kanu Never experienced it when I was using Fedora. Did the offending steps frequently. Could be that a new update changed something. Are you running the basic installation with GNOME and everything?
Maybe I'm too old school, but I always shut it down. With Fast Startup it usually takes sub-minute to boot.
Here is more, if you have any devices that "feeds" from USB, shutdown holding Shift - that will also disable power on those ports. Discovered this when trying to understand how to turn off laptop cooling pad powered from laptop USB :)
This is great. I didn‘t know this hibernate vs sleep was even a thing but my laptop had issues with going to sleep for YEARS. I don‘t think its exactly the same issue as my hardware is older than what you guys mentioned in the video and my computer does not support s0 sleep.
Nonetheless, windows sleep is just a pain but at least for me, I think the hibernate option should fix my issue
Just to add: If anyone has a HP laptop, don't forget to turn off "Extended idle power states" in the BIOS. For whatever reason, when this option is enabled, "Service and Controller App" will consume up to 50% of the CPU.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! 50%!!! wtf crackmonkies HP!
If you have an HP go to the BIOS and then save and exit and throw the laptop in the garbage! Should solve most problems.
@@delzarohabash1999 my family photos were on there, now what do I do?
@@superpork1superboy771 Idk man just pass them via usb and buy a ryzen laptop from lenovo or asus or framework (with s3 of corse or linux) or buy a macbook.
@@pulsar022 wtf I saved up for a year for my laptop. I don't want to do that again, and the laptop is already gone 😭😭😭
I just never use standby and always shut off my laptop thanks to this! Thanks foe shedding light onto the issue!
*foe* shure
There's no reason at all to use sleep or standby when a cold boot only takes 10 seconds.
Yeah this seems to be the obvious answer and with SSD's and M.2 drives leading to fast boot times starting up from cold isn't that much longer than waking up from sleep mode without all the other issues described here.
Same. It only takes a few seconds to start up modern laptops, so it's not that big a deal.
@@P3GProductions it's opening up all your programs and putting them in the state you left them that takes time not the startup
I had a similar thing happen to a work laptop a while back for one occurrence.
Haven’t had this happen to any of my older laptop machines like my thinkpad T440p.
THANK YOU for talking about this. Windows sleep is absolutely broken. Also switched to a mac and have no battery anxiety.
I am enamored with the investigative reporting you've been doing lately. I find it informative and very useful.
It also a great way to show and call out either the laziness and/or incompetence of these companies. Thanks for your hard work.
This is that very moment when you're glad you're from that jurassic era where users just would not close the lid without turning it off. We and my dino-friends were used to turn off the whole equipment instead, not even bothering the sutdown and startup times. lol By the way: congrats for helping out so many people by digging so deep into this issue. Hope they just clean up the mess...
Same. I always just always turned mine off. I don't think I ever once used sleep.
Halfway into the video I was wondering why don't they just shut down their laptops before closing the lid and if they don't plan to use it for days or even the next five hours. I think myself and people around me still does this to just shut down their laptops rather than putting them into sleep haha
I had the issue happen to me once because I saw a bunch of other people just close their laptop without shutting it down.
Since then, I started shutting my laptop down like any other device I use. Well, except for my smartphone.
My thoughts exactly while watching this. I have NEVER used sleep on any of my laptops and I've never experienced this issue. Just turn 'em off people.
@EvandroZattiUnique my initial thought about this vid for the first 2 mins is, "uhmm you can just shut down your laptop before charging it overnight right? since closing the lid will just put it in sleep mode"
i'm literally baffled, what's the actual problem here? is it them thinking closing the lid will shutdown the whole computer and if it's not, it's a whole new big deal problem?
What's clearly happening here, i'm don't really get it.
I have the exact same issue, except my laptop supports only S3 mode, which is weird. And when it also gets hot after I SHUT IT DOWN?!?! Windows also crashes whenever I unplug my charger, while the pc is on.
I ran powercfg /a in my command prompt on my brand new Windows 11 laptop and it says that it is in S0 power state but WITH NETWORK CONNECTED even though it is NOT PLUGGED IN.
I actually arrived at that same conclusion. It was always a problem when I was working on a charger and had to go somewhere quickly, so I closed the lid, disconnected the charger and left. Battery Drain would often occur after that. So what I started doing was always unplugging first and then letting the laptop rest for like a minute before closing it. It's a hassle but that's somehow just what you do.
The other common cause I've seen for this is people using a wireless mouse with USB dongle. Depending on brand, any movement of the mouse can cause the dongle to wake the laptop. So you have to remember to turn off the mouse before you close the lid of the laptop. If you just close the laptop, toss it and your mouse into a bag, and put that in the trunk of your car, the jostling of the mouse as you're driving your car keeps the laptop awake and draining battery.
YES. Same here. The devices want to stay on as much as possible it seems.....
I noticed the same behaviour with a MacBook, a with bluetooth connected mouse
Yes, of course. Blame the user.
go to device manager and disable mouse/usb wake
What?... Wireless mice have a switch to turn it off and on, if yours doesn't then get an adecuate wireless mouse
I'm always careful about which way up I put my Surface Pro in my bag so as to keep the power button on top. Orherwise it can switch on. Similarly the camera on the previous fen can't handle coming out of standby...
Great video!
There is second huge windows laptop problem, presumably related to Intel - CPU throttling when unplugged. I have old Dell with 8750H Processor and recently purchased MSI with 12900H onboard. Dell gets unusable on battery, MSI is a bit better, but simple youtube page takes, like, 5 seconds to refresh.
Searched in internet, but haven't found working solution. I don't need that 10% improvement in battery life, I just need my laptop to work 😮💨
This happened to me 2 days ago. I shut my laptop with it plugged in knowing that I wouldn’t be taking my charger to work the next day. It sat plugged in all day until I had to leave for work. I threw it in my bag and at the end of my shift I went to turn it on and nothing happened. When I got home I plugged it in and wouldn’t you know, windows update was in the middle of updating. You guys are definitely right about what happens.
I'm so happy that there is finally someone with a voice standing up to all these companies.
there is also another problem related to standby:
I sleep in the same room where my laptop use to stay. A lot of times I listened in the middle of night the noisy of coolers of PC running something when it should be on standby. That's why I still use to fully turn off my PC (and wait centuries every day when turning on)
this isn't a company or corporate problem, this is literally just an incompetence problem. I doubt that this is intentional and I am pretty sure this is just some error with some random win process that loops, draining the battery overnight while pushing load on the CPU, no normal process should do this.
Mac has it's own issues, but at this point it's looking like an attractive option. I tried to go Linux many times but I found myself coming back to Windows. Looks like Mac and Linux are the way to go. Windows as a gaming only OS.
Linus ,i want to say that i had also this problem , i have a Hp 15s with Amd procesor , and when i would just simply close the lid and open it after 5 min , it would boot to recovery , i posted the problem to microsoft comunity , and i fixed ... for a bit when it started again , so i said screw it and never close the lid , until i found bout hibernation , which to this day i still use it . But i think the latest update ( not the KB5029263 ) may have fixed the issue , but even if i still had that issue , i will still use windows , cuz im a windows fan ( not really a fan blower )
It just happened to be today, place my laptop to sleep at the Uni, with around 60% battery left, 1hr drive back home, rested and PC was dead and a hot potato>
The annoying part, it doesn't even support s0 state, just s3 and 'hybrid sleep'
My Lap is a HP Pavilion 2018 Model i7-8th Gen U model.
9:02 Actually, I use a Macbook (16 M1 Max) and kept running into a similar problem with the standby, and realized it went away if I unplugged it, waited, then shut the lid. I've been doing that for basically a year now, and it seems to work so I can anecdotally confirm that this works. My theory at the time was very similar to this!
Might be worth to shoot it at apple forums. Seems like a good catch for someone in QA
Have the same problem with my Macbook, with the added twist that the USB-C power handling is so borked that it often fails to recognise when it's been unplugged and still thinks it's running on mains power until I reboot, so even unplugging doesn't always fix the issue.
It’s crazy this video just came out, I went through all these same troubleshooting steps when I had this issue a month ago and came to the same conclusion about unplugging the laptop. The part that I wish was discussed more in this video is how the overheating issues can become so severe that the laptop shuts down in an error state, meaning it could have damaged the components. This happened to me for a week straight, so I’m hoping a fix can be made.
Definitely. That bit in the video about the laptop potentially becoming so hot it can burn you is not a joke.. I wish they would have mentioned permanent damage as well.
I'm fairly certain this is a large part of the reason the batteries on Windows laptops seem to fail a LOT more often than those on Macs.
The fans sleep properly, so they overheat even outside of bags.
@@ribstogo12 Why PC only has standby S3? Im on windows 11 and when i typed powercfg /a: The following sleep states are available on this system:
Standby (S3)
Hibernate
Hybrid Sleep
Fast Startup
@@antonioytm dude idk
@@antonioytmProbably because this makes the most sense for desktops as instant wake and whatnot isn't really as applicable on a desktop versus a portable device.
If I'm not going to be using my laptop for an hour or so, or if I'm going to put it in a bag where it won't have ventilation, I just turn it all the way off. I never use sleep. Every Windows laptop I've ever had has gotten buggy after coming out of sleep anyway. So I just set closing the lid to do nothing and the power button to turn it off rather than sleep or hibernate. And in the modern world of SSDs, the machine gets going again fast enough that I don't mind.
I will say, though, that using a Macbook Air and just being able to close the lid without it causing any weird behavior feels super nice. But if you like the Windows Explorer more than Finder (I do), and if you like having a touchscreen (I do), and if you like a convertible form factor (I do), and if you like using a digital pen (I do), Windows is just better. And it's worth the really very small inconvenience of having to quickly reboot.
i usually change close laptop to do nothing so it doesn't get interrupted or stay on or something. and i use the button for standby so push the button and then close. does that work?
I just checked a 2022 LG Gram 16 that I bought earlier this week, and can confirm that it does feature S3 sleep and the registry edit works fine with no fiddling with BIOS settings required, so you could add LG to this list of OEMs that enable S3, at least on some models. Thanks for the legit tech tip!
ED: A few days after toggling this I noticed that upon waking from sleep, the machine immediately turns off (too quick for it to have been a clean shutdown) and then turns on again. If you have the Phoenix BIOS, S0 can be explicitly turned off under Advanced settings (Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F7, Advanced>Intel Advanced Menu>ACPU Settings>Low-Power S0 Idle Capability>select ‘Disabled’), however, this behavior persists regardless. (Interestingly, whether S3 is enabled or S0 is enabled appears to be two separate settings that aren’t linked to each other.)
I don’t know if this is a problem with my machine, with Windows 11, or with all current-gen Gram 16s, or if there is some other BIOS setting that I’ve overlooked (there are an incredibly amount of options exposed, more than I’ve ever seen in a laptop, and they are neither well-documented nor obvious) but in the meantime, I have reverted back to S0 and am using the workaround suggested here. Thanks again, and apologies-I didn’t mean to spread disinformation here. Let’s hope that now that the issue has been isolated, a patch can be released...
Same for legion 5 pro!
+! for the LG Gram. An absolute dream of a laptop. I'm on my second!