Thailand vs Holland
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 26. 06. 2024
- Today we analysis 5 aspects of fighting and see if muay thai or kickboxing is stronger in these departments. And we discuss how to build your fight style and become your best possible version.
Topics to compare today are hand defence, kick defence, range control, combo work, and close range fighting. Which style will prevail stronger between these 5 fighting elements?
If you enjoy the video please share, like and/or subscribe đ đ đ
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I'm Dutch and the reason why Dutch style has a more phone booth style of fighting is because it has Kyokushin roots with western boxing. Osu!
No kyokushin it's muay thaĂŻ and boxing combination,
HAHAHA Dude Do you think you see mostly Thai or Japanese trainers? That's the answer because Thai trainers travel to teach or live in that country around the world. ah and Ramon dekkers He practiced Muay Thai since the age of 12 but some people claim that he is real Dutch kickboxing style and not Muay Thai style. R.I.P Ramon dekkers
@@thehitman06
It is actually more nuanced than that. You can view the evolution of DKB (Dutch KickBoxing) in 4 waves.
First generation were pretty much Kyokushinkai practitioners (Kyokushinkaikas). It came right after Judo got introduced in the Netherlands. Dutch people like culture exchange so Kyokushin style was welcomed.
Second generation were Kyokushinkaikas who were looking to improve their fighting. It was right after the Japanese Kyokushinkaika Kenji got knocked out in the Karate vs Muay Thai bout and founded the framework for modern kickboxing in his Meijiro gym in Japan where he mixed Kyokushin, Boxing and Muay Thai. A few dutch people trained at this gym and brought it back to the Netherlands.
Third generation were second generation kickboxers who challenged themselves against Muay Thai (in Thailand as well as Netherlands) with mixed results. They added more Muay Thai to their arsenal, but also adapted, came with new ideas based on what they already know in order to be able to face Muay Thai.
Current generation is the same formula, but adapted to modern kickboxing rules (k1). If Muay Thai had more prize money, was more popular for the viewers and had more people from similar Dutch weight classes, they probably would've fought in Muay Thai instead.
So yeah, DKB is an original interpretation of Kyokushin, Muay Thai, Japanese kickboxing and boxing as a result of many culture exchange and competition that drove Dutch kickboxing, as well as Japanese kickboxing and Muay Thai to improve their arts. All three arts influenced each other and I think that is an awesome thing.
Also note that based on the gym in the Netherlands, they might have a different, but similar history. Some did not experience the Kyokushin phase for example.
Last note is that terminology was pretty vague back then. Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Thaiboxing was used interchangeably, but that doesn't necesary mean they train like the actual Thais for example.
@@thehitman06 Nope. Sensei Bluming (Mas Oyama's master pupil (10th degree Kyokushinl) taught Kyokushin to many Dutch Kickboxers and many coaches. Lucien Carbin, Thom Harinck (trainer of Badr Hari, Peter Aerts etc ect.), Jan Plas, Cor Hemmers (stepdad/trainer of Ramon Dekkers btw and trainer of Alistair Overeem, Bas Rutten, Sem Schilt etc etc), they all have Kyokushin roots. Rico Verhoeven is a black belt too and his father was a Kyokushin teacher as well.
@@tarzanstyleth9058 Ramon Dekkers his stepdad/trainer Cor Hemmers was a Kyokushin black belt. His kicks and his western boxing is what made him that good.
Itâs also very important to note Muay Thai isnât just a single style there are sub styles within Muay Thai that focuses on technical, kicking, clinch knee/elbow, aggressive puncher etc and theyâre all very different, Muay Thai evolved into 50% clinching tho
Yes, Muay Khao, Femur & Mat.
Exactly
@@Anti-McDojo ye Muay Tae, Muay Sok, Muay Plam, Muay Bouk, the list is long. I love all styles, also the dutch style.
Thais don't incorporate boxing the same way as the dutch... they apply the evasiveness and footwork more I think
Ramon Dekkers crushed them all ;)
This episode is not about putting any fight style down.
It's about helping you become a more skilled and well rounded fighter.
Take the strengths of different martial arts and make your own unique style.
Hey Gabriel, 2 quick questions. Do u think that mma changes the range system for muay thai? As in doesnt the jab and the takedown take priority for distance control. Second question: does mma make the dutch style combos less useful due to takedowns?
Love all your video's Gab. You are a incredible fighter and Champion. And you are a great teacher as well. Thanks champ đđ
@@mikea7732 In my opinion, the only things that need to change in kickboxing is removing shelling up and squaring your stance a little in order to account for takedowns
@@mikea7732 In my opinion, the only things that need to change in kickboxing is removing shelling up and squaring your stance a little in order to account for takedowns
Mmm... Could you comment on takedown defence as a striker, then? It's something people don't see much unless they go into grappling or mma.
I'm from Holland and yes, we train a lot on combinations. The technique, especially kicking and keeping distance from the Thais is the best. Nice video bro
Thanks man đ
Great video brother. Probably my favorite among all your videos. You nailed it đ„
How do you stop a combo? The Thais figured it out, clinch, knees and elbows. Remember K1 and Buakaw.
to see more of well combined Dutch Thai style check out Ramon Dekkers and Damien trainor.
At trainor's school pretty much all they teach from beginner to late intermediate level is pre rehearsed combos, mixing high low, left right etc.
Damien is a muay thai fighter
one of the most underrated fight channels!
keep up the great work, you're awesome buddy!
I appreciate that đ đ
I started my career in the Netherlands, and so far have trained in Canada, Germany, the Netherlands and Thailand. All gyms and countries are different. Dutch were brutal, but a good foundation to start my training.
how eas the difference between the countries training? especially germany
@@DAMIXCLAN as a Thai Iâll answer about our gym. The gyms here are focused more on technical side, always sparring with control and moderate power if you look up pros sparring youâll see they have the rhythm and the flow, more body kicks clinching knees and elbows but less punch combinations. If theyâre sparring for KB fight there will be more teep and catch in absence of clinch and elbow
Dutch will throw more (better)punch and low kick at medium and short range and of course sparring harder
dude how much money spend solely on training? did you REALLY HAVE TO train in a specific gym in some countries far away to level up your fighting game?
True. Just to mention, here in italy kickboxing gyms are either karate point style or boxing style.
@@Shoegazebasedgenre0. not a dude. Mostly was an expat working and travelling.
Great video but you forgot to mention the most important weapon. The elbow. Which is a powerful tool that stops boxing against the ropes. Which is a powerful weapon that transfers to MMA. And transfers to self defence in general. Also, the tight guard of kickboxing isnât as effective with the small gloves of MMA. But yes, mixing them both up is very useful. Itâs fun going to different gyms and be able to bang it out in all styles. đđ»
The ability to clinch up also stops a rush down boxer.
Elbows are f ing vicious. We are aware of that in the gym, we don t connect with then during sparing or don t use then at all because things can get ugly really really fast.
The thing I like about Dutch Kickboxing is that they move around way more. While Muay Thai is based on standing in front of your opponent.
This lines up well with what we usually see when these styles clash. The Dutch kickboxers end up doing a lot of damage with their hands and combinations, and the Thai fighters win out in the kicking and clinch exchanges. The winner is usually the one who shuts down the otherâs strengths
I do feel it all really depends if it's Kickboxing or Muay thai. If the clinch is there with elbows and knees, the dutch pressure boxing style is much easier deal with imo. It also makes the single shots from muay thai more dangerous because you can get lured into to the feeling the you'll block most of it and that's when step-in knees and elbows and sweeps works best. Without the clinch game as in kickboxing, the dutch style pressure boxing is hell imo. Being tall and favouring the kicks, sweeps and clinch, those 5 to 6 combos are just hell to deal with, when I can't sweep or clinch. Best option is low, inner lowkicks to the lead leg followed by knee, kick or punch imo. Get the aggressor off balance and punish him enough to make him think twice about his style of choice. My opinion of course. Great channel man :)
I started training martial arts at muay thai classes. I loved it but after 2 years I switched to kick boxing because I wanted to learn that fancy long combinations and also to put more focus on my footwork and finding nice angles for shoots. So now after 5 years combined I did exactly what Gabriel explained and I use what's best from both styles.
That's very comprehensive video. Keep it up! :D
My kru is a dutch stylist with some traditional Muay Thai mechanics and technique and it works the dutch guard with the chicken wing grab for the kick is a wonderful technique and is actually one of my favorites
Very very intetesting topic! I was thinking about this for a wile đłđ±đčđ
Fantastic video! Everybody is different. Fighters need to adapt styles to meet their own attributes not the other way around. I love the way you embody that philosophy and itâs something we absolutely have in common. Keep up the great work!
Thanks Mark đ
Another thing we have in common đ We sure get along
That piece about hand defense is something I've personally struggled with in my journey in Muay Thai and I'll definitely look into Gabriel's advice. Thanks!
Please do more parts to this video, and also compare some other styles. I could watch this for hours, no joke.
Great to hear. I'll look at some other styles as well.
@@GabrielVargaOfficial can you check out Kudo karate .
Thanks
Gabriel is a student of the sport and it's always great to hear analysis like this
Thank you, Gabriel. Excellent analysis of both styles. Great compare and contrast.
Incredible stuff. Highly detailed! Love seeing the mindset and theory behind the technique (arguably the most important part)
I love this video. Love your helicopter view! Like the different perspectives.
Great video! I've heard plenty about muay thai and one of my mentors when I was younger was a former professional kickboxer who spent some time in thailand so I feel like I know the concepts and basis of Thai style pretty well. However, I'm mostly unfamilar with the Dutch style and I've heard you mention it a few times and have seen some videos talking about Ramon Dekkers and have become more curious about that style, so I appreciate you going more into detail on what that means in this video
This is awesome. I started KB with a savate, muay thai blend. Later I saw how awesome dutch style was so I just analyzed and took what was working for me. Now I am very good at keeping center control, dictate the pace, keep range, and I can fight in the pocket very well.
But I really suck at sweeps and clinch work. Because we didn't drill it often
thank you very much for your explanation! Very interesting!!!
Occasionally bumped into this. Great job! Great expertise. I'm big fan of mixing those 2 up! Back in the days it helped me in Thailand a lot
Great video, I started training at a more k1 style gym then switched to a more traditional Muay Thai gym and I have been trying to combine elements from both. My teep and knees have gotten way stronger but I still love throwing those long combos mixing in body shots. They work well against long guard guys who are usually excellent at trading kicks.
I prefer K1
can you make a video where you compare the typical stand up kickboxing mma form and lethwei with these two?
love your videos, one of the best fighting youtube channels and the smartest fighter I know. keep up the good work, greetings from the middle of the middle of europe.
Great video, both styles have their strengths and one thing to always remember is how the rules and scoring also change how you are going to fight, especially when the pace of a typical Thai fight versus a Glory Kickboxing fight are much different.
Great work this makes sense definitely will help in the upcoming ikf bouts see you guys there!!
I would love hearing about this for an hour! You could make it a multi part episode.
awesome vids bro. motivating and educating!
Im 15 and do muay thai but one day I will also train dutch to improve my handwork and combinations. Great vid btw đ
Exceptional video...thank you very much!!!
I absolutely agree with how you broke thst down, great video!!
Great coaching, love it
Thanks for this video! Very useful for looking at footage of fight films to understand where habits are coming from. What's your opinion of these old school American kickboxers that came in with different styles transitioning from point fighting? The styles of Benny The Jet Urquidez, Joe Lewis, and Bill Wallace were all so very different it seems as they were influenced by the martial arts they picked up and then added elements of boxing into it. I think Bill Wallace's style is pretty interesting since a lot of that was based on fighting despite injury to one of his knees he sustained in Judo some years prior to full contact kickboxing. I love the scholarship of combat sports and really appreciate your videos!
I love it I can see now I'm mixing both as you mention after years in both styles, and for footwork, after sparring with a Savate champion, I recognize this (rare) style to be amazing for footwork
Nice one! As a Dutch person I can relate đ However, personally I always liked MT more...the sweeps, longer clinch, 5 rounds instead of 3. I think the number of round (only 3 in kickboxing) also helped to develop this more aggressive style. One of the reasons I eventually switched to regular boxing, since endurance is my strongest point. In the Netherlands it is easier to find a good boxing gym than a real MT gym...
Hey is there a good may thai gym that you could recommend in the netherlands?
@@MySmoothBoy Rgrip in Amsterdam was where I was introduced to muay thai and dutch style. They pretty brutal but awesome people. Real good trainers. Go for itđȘ
@@LokiLamont R grip is closed atm
@@gertmoelders8809
Hi Gabriel.. Really great video as always. Thank you for getting some really indepth knowledge out there. It always helps me with my training. Good luck.
I love your content!
I love that you made this video with good footage too!
I love your way of seeing things.
I like what you. I feel that you have a sincere heart and that you really love what you do. You are a great role model in the way that you approach your topics. Thank you.
This was super helpful! I havenât seen much content that breaks down the nuances of Thai and Dutch styles. Thanks!
Also, love your quick educational style videos. Keep it up, youre like the Stephen Wonderboy Thompson in kickboxing, i like his style of presentation to.
This is a damn good vid. I've been doing the same with my kids, teaching them boxing and then adding some Muay Thai techniques.
The overall message of this video is one that really needs to talked about more: arts don't fight, people do, so take what works and leave what doesn't. I'm nowhere near a championship level fighter but, this has pretty much always been my personal outlook, as well.
Bruce Lee agreed with you
Always good content, and credible to me. Seems to apply to actual back yard/alley bareknuckle fighting in most cases, too.
Under rated channel, great breakdowns
Thanks đ
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Hi, Garbiel, just wanted to say this is insanely underrated content.
Thanks so much Karim!
Hopefully the channel will continue is quick growth.
This channel is pure gold
Outstanding video!
Gabriel, congrats for the video. It has been one of your best. Besides discussing the pro and cons from each martial art you give great basic tips. Cheers from Brazil
Thanks so much!
Great video man. Can you make a part 2 with more points to compare
Great video as usual.
I like the way you explain
Super interesing! THX
do a tier list of Kickboxing styles(or maybe promotions). from a fan perspective, Focusing on Entertainment, Simplicity,(can a casual understand it), and Marketing. (does the MT or Dutch style help with that popularity and such)
Very interesting comparison.
I am from Holland, and indeed, with kicks my arm gets little blue haha
I'm glad none of my sparring partners have good body kicks
I am from Morocco, I lived in Milan and in the 90s I met and trained with the top Dutch champions, Ramon Deckers, Rob Kaman, Bob Schrijber, Andre Mannart, Peter Aerts and many others! My fighting style is 70% Dutch, 30% Thai!
I tend shift stepping a bit back and tithe side when a middle kick is about to land to lower its impact while intercepting it and throwing it to the ground to pummel his leg, or switch and throw a high kick when he is still out of balance!!
@@WAHB50YY 70% front foot, 30% back foot!!
@@Staticsheep28 no that's bad
@@Nenad-ICXC-Shuput-GFAMMA agreed. You canât learn how to deal with something if youâve never dealt with it.
Your content is absolute gold!!!
I'm glad you are enjoying it
đđđ
Always ur the best coach
Thank you !
I've been loving all your videos, you're very humble and you spit facts. Not to mention you're very knowledgeable, great teacher
I appreciate that đ
One of the best combat sports related CZcams channels...hands down.
Great video!
I don't even have to watch the whole video before I smash that like button anymore. Great videos always đ. Keep up the good work
I appreciate it đ
First time finding your channel and I love it already
Welcome and I'm glad you like the videos so far.
This is such a high quality fight channel
đđđ
Thanks so much
Great channel. The tempo seems different with Muay Thai also.
One thing commendable about this channel is its frank and candid opinion in many âsensitiveâ area such as money issue, strength /weakness in fight style , topic of goat etc ...very candid and upfront.
Thanks. That's what I'm aiming for.
Share the information that I couldn't find while I climbed the ranks to world champion.
I think it would have helped me quite a bit.
Quality content!
This channel is on fire đ„đ
SOUNDS like he favors kickboxing
FAVORS convenience of Muay Thai
INCORPORATES both and loves both.
Mad respect m8.
In my opinion:
Long range: Thai
Middle range: Holland, to mix combo and punches
Close range: Thai
Muay Thai Thaiâs are king. Clearly lol
Dutch style 1-2-3 combo is good
Stop a combo with a clinch, knees and elbows. K1 Buakaw.
@@sharkparty1027 Buakaw vs Ramon Dekkers or Rico Verheoven would be awesome
Close range:wrestling
differences in the low kicks would be a good video as well, of course it's been done before but it is always nice (for me) to see another take on it
The set up is better in Dutch style imo.
It usually will start with a combo with the hands and will be followed with a low kick or a faint and a high kick .
@@Djee2007 I mean ok but that isn't a video
@@robbybee70 correcto mundo đ
I think you are definitely a very smart bloke and straight down the line very good info U must have a lot of discipline
Excellent video. Can you do a video on Muay Thai great Dieselnoi and why his knee strikes are as effective as another fighters punches ?
Great video thanks :)
Glad you liked it!
I like what you said about taking pieces and making something that is your own. That's pretty much what I'm doing right now with trying different Martial Arts and see what I can incorporate into making something that's mine. Started with boxing for almost 2 years where I got the basics, although I need more sparring, which, sadly, don't have much time to do. So I'm trying to find a way like that RXT1-Striking robot where I can spar alone and at my own pace. It'll never replace sparring with a real person but that's the only alternative I can see for now. Plus I tend to be a solitary dude and I like to train alone most of the time.
And I got my ribs broken and was stuck for 4 months and lost all the progress I've made on the conditioning side and I find myself doing it all over again which was depressing at times. Add that the fear of getting hurt again which mentally blocks me at times and... Yeah. Well, trying to get past it.
Now I'm jumping onto Jiu Jitsu and later on, I'd like to move on to Kickboxing. The idea being to learn Striking, meaning boxing for the hands and Kickboxing for the kicks because they both seem to blend together rather combining boxing with Muay Thai which looks way too different (like the stance and how you throw punches) and thus not a good blend That's just my analysis, correct me if I'm wrong).
The other part is to learn some grappling and to know what it feels like to be on the ground and know what and not to do, hence Jiu Jitsu. And man, I've never been this gazed out in my life than with Jiu Jitsu when you're trying to escape from someone trying to choke and lock you down. The other way around is true as well.
Would like to try Karate, Judo and some chinese Martials Arts too (idk which one yet) later on so we'll see.
Anyway, thank you very much Gabriel for the videos you make, they help and the way you explain things makes more sense for me and are easier to understand because we speak in a similar way. I had troubles understanding some coaches I had, not because they weren't good (not by a long shot), but mostly because we don't share the same vocabulary and some of them just aren't good with words, which leads to a lot of confusion on both ends.
Cheers!
Good explanation
Good explanation diversity is the key......i train some boxing to try different stance's.....like the 'tyson'=peekaboo style off delivering punches......
I really like your stuff I wish I was 20yrs younger so I can learn this stuff again.
đłđ±đłđ±đđ thank you for the video ,Osu
Goed te zien dat ook jij hier interesse voor hebtđ
Fransie!
@@dvo4574 zie je het al voor je? frans bauer in de ring lol
You should do a list of the different forms of kickboxing around the world and compare and contrast each as their are many.
Great vid! PLEASE do some video's on old school fighters and why they were such great athletes(Styles and Puzzles) and how its involved to current rules. Some history is always nice. Here are just a few old school Dutch Athletes from the Netherlands, Ivan Hippolyte, Ramon Dekkers, Bas Rutten, Gilbert Ballantine and undefeated Lucia Rijker who just literally couldn't find anymore opponents so she had to switch to boxing. There were so many beautiful athletes during the 80's and 90's here, to many to name. Thanks. Greetings from Amsterdam(North Holland), the Netherlands.
The Japanese style would also be very interesting if you comment on it, very good channel
Dutch kickboxing is originally Japanese. A dude named Mejiro(student of Mas Oyama) taught a Dutch man kickboxing(boxing mixed with karate). Then dude took it to Holland, opened a gym, and called it Dutch kickboxing.
Great video!
I think though that body type might also show a preference for aspects of what style over the other. The Dutch are after all the tallest people in the world, many have very long limbs, and also probably the most developed heavyweight scene, which I assume had an impact on how the style developed. What do you think?
Also, maybe you could do a video about Dutch vs American kickboxing?
thank you, master
You are very welcome.
What a time we live in that we have access to the incredibly informative opinions of a 12 time belt winner, for FREE! Iâm thinking we need some hoodies to buy.
I am Dutch school kickboxing but I incorporate all Muay Thai style blocking and defending... merging the two styles in one and mastering it is the ideal, you have the best of both worlds and it makes you hard to figure out!
Well done.
That's smart fighting.
@@GabrielVargaOfficial Thanks Gabriel, it's an honor to chat with you. I am 57 and still train like 25 years ago. You are brilliant and I started following you because we share the same philosophy when it comes to fighting. I am sharing your videos with friends I have who want to improve their game, and you have got the best recipes for winning a fight. In due time I will share my own tutorials and strategies!
Great vid. Always felt like Muay Thai in general lacked hands and the combos can be more fluid. Other than that, it's a great striking base.
I love Muay Thai but Kickboxing is way more popular where I live so if I come back to striking it has to be that or boxing but as a grappler the clinch comes more natural for me.
Thank you for the great video as I get lost about comparison specially when both styles have a different take on the low kick.
My gym does Dutch muay thai, we do alot of hand work, I wish we did more clinch and kicks like a traditional thai gym.
I would keep my style 70% Dutch and make up the other 30% by mastering Thai clinch techniques! I have been told there are major differences between the Dutch low kick and Thai low kick strategies though?
wonderful video
Awesome video man, really informative! I was just wondering, why is it that you don't often see karate or taekwondo techniques in kickboxing? Like spinning kicks, hook kicks, bouncing in and out of the pocket. It seems like such a good arsenal to possess, yet you don't see it often. Do you have an exaplanation for that?
These are very effective techniques if used correctly. They aren't used as much because they are harder to land and are more tiring.
That's just my opinion.
Both, I love both.
Great vid bro, always informative and respectful đđż Do you have any advice on effective ways to counter or better yet avoid oblique kicks đ ?
I wouldnât know but I would guess either dip into it to flex and make your knee rigid or throw a hard counter shot straight after every time to discourage it. If you are quick, stay light on the front leg and retract it back when you see them throw it
Can you make a video about the kickboxing style coming out of morocco?
Hey Gabriel, thanks for the breakdown. How would you classify the style of Giorgio Petrosyan who is, in my opinion, the kickboxing GOAT? In interviews, Petrosyan said he set out to blend the strongest aspects of boxing with the strongest aspects of Muay Thai. And when you watch him fight, it is not exactly like traditional Dutch kickboxing either - he's very upright, maintains his range exceptionally well with the Thai style of push and round kicks (and that sick counter left knee), but his boxing and hand combination is extremely sharp and flows so well.
Personally, I think his style is the pinnacle and should probably be emulated by more fighters. Of course, it's easier said than done.
Cheers and good luck in your upcoming fights!