How To Use Knee & Slope To Sculpt Highlight Rolloff | Sony Picture Profile Settings
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- čas přidán 28. 07. 2024
- In this video I try to better understand the knee and slope settings in the Sony picture profile menus. How do knee and slope work? Can it be used to improve your video? Can it extend your dynamic range? What are the best settings for you? I did quite a bit of testing for this video and it started to break my brain after a while, I just hope you find it interesting and helpful!
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Exactly when I thought to myself: ooh, finally I understand every setting in my camera and feel pretty comfortable.. and here comes the Harv with the Knee )) man I want to know more )) about slog3 and tweaking knee
Hi Harv, I noticed this in the Picture Profile section of both my A7III and A6700 manuals:
"If you set [Slope] to +5 in [Manual Set] under [Knee], [Knee] will be disabled."
Unless I'm misunderstanding, wouldn't that mean that in your Slope +5 samples, Knee is actually not functioning at all?
You say that Knee is not needed with SLOG2 or 3, so would that apply to HLG too? I notice that the default Knee settings for the PP10 HLG profile are 100%, +5, so is it effectively disabled by default?
This is awesome. Definitely the first CZcamsr I've seen dive into the arcane science of knee and slope. I think these settings just illustrate how long Sony has been in the professional video camera business
I think you're right about not needing it for Slog, because log already has an S-curve to emulate film, whereas traditional video gammas are linear. Which is why they could benefit from the knee adjustments
One stop to understand the sony gibberish, made so easy and enjoyable as sipping my tea. Thanks alot :)
😄👍🏻
Thank you for educating us, don't worry about the views, you got quality audience ..
Many thanks, I tend to agree. I just enjoy making these, views don’t bother me 😄
So much better than every other youtubers "special" settings
This is a great video and saved me a bunch of testing, as well as gave me some new ideas to test. I know it's a year old, but I think it's worth a lengthy comment because it's both the first result for searches about knee and the best testing examples.
I think between the testing I've done, your testing, and reading Sony's documentation (including some older, more clearly worded stuff), I've finally figured out why knee settings seem to both always make things worse and also work in the opposite way you would think (shallower curve actually reduces gradations, as in your tests). There's a few important things either not covered or mistaken in the video...
1. The knee graph you provided, which I think is how you, me, and everyone else understood the curve (based on its misleading numbering scheme), is wrong. 0 is not linear and +5 is not steeper than linear. +5 is linear (knee off), per Sony's own documentation. That makes 0 slope already a strong knee bend and -5 nearly flat.
2. The entire purpose of knee is to roll off >100IRE highlights *in camera* to hit 100IRE. The key points there are OVER 100IRE and "in camera".
- That means if you're editing your footage... forget about knee and just pull down/roll off the over 100 data in post with much greater accuracy and finesse. You gain nothing, but (as shown in your video) do lose something by compressing it in-camera.
- This also means that using manual knee on profiles which already top out at 100IRE is doing nothing but lowering your data clip level to less than 100IRE, which is accomplishing nothing but data destruction - this is also demonstrated in your video. You're taking blown highlights and pulling them back towards gray, leaving you with less bright, but equally devoid of data highlights.
So this means knee should only be touched IF: A. you're using a profile that goes to 109 AND B. you're delivering footage straight out of camera. You can better see/demonstrate how knee is supposed to be used by setting zebras to 100+, using an ITU709 profile (or anything that maxes at 109), and then playing with manual knee settings (typically in the 90%+ range, lower just produces issues) to roll off the 109 level signal to only 100. As your Cine1 face example showed, this is NOT better than doing it in post, but at least the 100 level zebras help visualize what exactly is going on, and useful in-camera results can be achieved at something less than 5+ (knee off). Try ITU709, knee 95%/-1. This clips properly right at 100IRE, but first brings down all that 100+ data without completely crushing it.
I definitely would love this kind of video for slog3! Thanks! Helped a ton with understanding this setting
Man i just wanted to thank you, your love and your effort for sharing knowledge in videomaking is really precious. The added value in your videos is that you also explain (in a simple but not superficial way) the "why" and not only the "how". So thanks again, really. Liked and subscribed!
Many thanks, such kind words! This video nearly broke my brain 😅
so simply explained.. thanks bro for this.
Thanks for the video! I always enjoyed learning more about the sciences of video.
Exactly what I was looking for! Will check out your other videos too. Thank you.
Thanks for your videos Mr Harv!
Simple and clear. 👍🏻
Thanks a lot for this pro.. Very usefull information.
This was great! I hope to see more of this stuff!
Very clear man, I need to grade some sony footage and I never hear about knee & slope, thanks for sharing it
Well done, Harv!
Would love to see the Slog tests:)
Thanks brother.... For this informative video. Awaiting for the second test with log settings...🙏🙏
Definitely interested! Never thought about that. How the knee settings affects Slog3.
Great video!
Another sick video brah.
excellent doing a video on this topic man
Many thanks, when doing the research I was amazed how few videos there are on this topic 👍🏻
Good job
Thanks!
Thanks for the clear info on the roll-off. With the Sony A7III I shoot almost exclusively in slog-3 and with sony 70-200mm f2.8, xeen cf 24 mm. For an architecture project I shot about 1000 takes. A particular difficulty was the highlights. even with careful exposure, it is often very difficult to decide whether to expose more in the dark area or more in the bright area. The wrong decision I then determine on the monitor, some takes are then not usable, others difficult to save and others when graden very beautiful, with many details to form.
Your remarks are not relevant for my concrete work, but the comparison images of the different slop settings have coincided with my highlight gradings. And besides, I got an important info from you about "knee" for Sony Picture Profile Settings.
Thanks again and creative ideas.
Peter
i think you shoul try to look for the wolfcrow system
Great video. Inherited 3 x Panasonic cx350 cameras for conferences and the default settings were horrible and I couldn't figure out why a negative slope wasn't helping. Now I understand.
Slope of -5 means at the end of top end of the graph there would only be 95 values of 100 for luminance, so wherever you set the knee, the luminance values will be crushed a little.
Positive slope (within actual dynamic range of camera) means what was previously at the value of 100 and clipping should be slightly under the line now that the ceiling was raised, how much raised of course depending on where the knee is set.
Thanks heaps man.
Man ! your good
awesome!please do test slog2 and 3!
nice!! I want to see how this effects slog 3 with phantom luts.
thank you for this enormeus information
My pleasure!
Thanks this is awesome info
So given how Arri deals with highlight roll off what would you recommend for settings to best copy that roll off if Alexa’s etc
LOG results will be great
I don't own a sony, but yesterday I discovered my cine cam has a knee and slope, no idea how to use it. Perfect timing
Great in-depth video! Since SLOG3 doesn’t have highlight roll off until added in post, do the knee settings even effect anything when shooting? That is, would it even matter whether I changed my knee from auto to manual since SLOG3 doesn’t have roll off?
Ive watched many of your videos and just noticed i've not subscribed. Thank God for CZcams history reference
Interesting, reminds me of an audio compressor. Never liked those results, a soft limiter in video version would be nice
ooooooohhhhhhh sh*|**** you rock man! Thanks for that
It’s been called knee since the day off tube cameras.We use toy use it to shade the cameras live.
So I can create än S-curv or a filmic curve? To look more like the highlight rolloff that film does?
Hi! Thanks for your very useful videos!
Always watching them and it helps a lot.
But now I am confused about which Cine gamma to choose for my Sony 7 ii
Because is shooting 8 bit video I don't want to use S Log . So in that case Cine gamma is better but which one ? Cine 2 or Cine 4 ? )) with right settings of black point and manual knee . What can you suggest me to use ?
Shooting outdoor mostly
Thank you
Hmm I’d say this requires more time and consideration than I can put into a reply, I have a Patreon for this kind of thing 👍🏻
good info. but is there a camera which has the best highlight roll off straight out of box. no logs, no raw. all these is way too complicated.
But if point (or knee) only sets the percentage of where slope will bent the curve, then just changing point with leaving slope at 0 should do nothing at all. But it does! Any reasons?
In some Sony manuals they said that setting slope to +5 void the knee point. Weird.
Hello, I'm using HLG3 on my Sony A7C. Do you think knee at 80% and sloop +2 are good settings? Or just leave it at 100% knee and 0 sloop? thanks for the advice.
Hi there, I’d advise not changing the knee at all, HLG already has a very large highlight range squeezed into a very small recording range so it’s probably best left as it is.
I’m currently researching for a video about HLG and everything I’ve read so far makes me think that it’s best not to use it unless your content is destined explicitly for compatible HDR displays. But that’s just so far...😅...I still have to do all my testing, watch this space! 👍🏻
Super interesting and very helpful, thanks for sharing. SUB FROM ME!!!
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You didn't grade that right, just as log needs an equal and opposite correction, so too would a minus slope. In davinci you would set your range at 75ire (or whatever your knee was at) and you'd need to stretch out the highlights. In the end most likely getting similar results to +5 slope. This does seem like more of a tool for livestreaming and setting the image in camera.
I tried this and didn’t love the results, no matter what I did the minus slope never had the same detail
+5 turns it off basically
Nice vid but you missed something in all your tests, with the slope set at +5, the effect/ hi light compression is turned 'OFF' you'll need to go back and use +4(steep) with every combo of settings for point to properly evaluate how this setting will effect inebriated quality AND the settings are only applicable for a given exposure of the or external luminance level changes you would need to re-adjust those settings to compensate, something else very you'll notice with this settings is that it turns the white luminance of things that are bright to gray, so overall hi light compression should be left for post as shooting log especially if intended to capture all the information & manipulate later in post, if your aim is to do this in camera so that you can deliver immediately after capture then like everything else you want to make sure you nailed it... you can also verify how these settings effect the clipping point of your picture profile in real-time by setting the point below the clipping point and turning on zebras, then you will e them disappear when using certain point/slope settings but you will also see your whites turning to gray whenever you use a low point and/or slope setting together as Sony recommends setting them inversely to each other with slope at a max of +4 & point @-5 or S/P @ -5/105 for example, great vid tho
What?
Knee for HLG????????????????????????