I just did some testing on this. So it's interesting - I wouldn't say it "reduces noise" as much as you seem to gain about 2/3 of a stop of light if you shoot in HLG3 Gamma. So essentially your 51,200 ISO goes a little bit further than it would in the stills gamma. I compared my results and the noise is the same at both ISOs when properly exposed, but you have to essentially compensate more in Still than in HLG3. Awesome find!
Thank you so much for this video. I was doing some tests with my A7iii, and I couldn't figure out why some photos looked different in RAW when playing with picture profiles. After some googling, I was convinced I was going crazy until I found your video. Thanks again!
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but what you showed is how I understand that Fujifilm uses their Dynamic Range 200%, 400%, Auto & DR Priority modes. Applying a tone curve to shadows & highlights at different ISO settings. It’s good for people who shoot JPEG only, using the Cine Gamma for example opens up the shadows and can help avoid crushed blacks. But it comes at a cost to RAW image data being manipulated too. Great to see it being shown so clearly!
Dude, awesome stuff. I was just explaining to someone the other day how it doesn't matter shooting raw. Guess I was wrong. That's the beauty and frustration of the craft all at once. There's always something new and exciting to learn, but that fact also means we're perpetually ignorant. Thanks for the great content!
You just finished my own homework! I was planning to check if my theory is right. Literally, you just saved hours of work! You rock! Always anticipating what your topic is gonna be! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Thanks for the video. Another thing I've noticed is that having Picture Profile enabled or not affects whether the Sony's built-in Lens Compensation (specifically and only Shading Comp.) gets baked into the RAW file. Having a PP on means Shading Comp. is baked into the RAW file, but PP Off means no Shading Comp. in the RAW file. You would expect Shading Comp. to get baked into the JPEG file as standard, but I always assumed that Lens Comp. would not apply to RAW (at least based on previous experience). Apparently I was wrong. The danger of only having an Auto/Off option for a setting, rather than a fully manual Auto/On/Off.
I'm not sure at the moment. Personally I've just been using the stills gamma this whole time and been quite happy. Some people are saying you can manipulate it to get a less noisy image, but I haven't tested.
Hey Gerald can you please tell me when Sony raw picture overexposes? What should I set my zebra to like I set it at 107+ for slog2. At zebra does a6500 raw picture reach its clipping point?
Thanks gerald. Top notch work as per usual! One request for another video since you're smart and noone else seems to have reported this. How much quality difference is it shooting in 4k full frame mode than 4k in super35/crop mode on the a7iii. I cannot find a video or anyone saying their results other than "little to no difference" thank you in advanced and absolutely love your work
I was wondering the same thing. Like if I shoot video in HLS or Cine- can I just leave it like that always when I shoot photos too...? Will it just develop differently but ultimately be just as developable?
Here's the deal with the Cine and Log gammas on the Sony cameras: the changing ISO range is just is digital adjustment / metadata inside the camera. At the sensor level (and actual data in raw files), the sensitivity does not really change. Using a6300 as an example, normal profile @ISO100, Cine @ISO200 and Log @ISO800 are all the same thing. They all clip to white at the same point, and the blacks are lost in noise at the same point. On jpg and video files, the gamma is adjusted so that Cine looks a stop brighter, and log looks three stops brighter - thus the higher nominal ISO setting. A similar thing applies to RAW: as far ss i can tell, the above are all the same thing as far as the actual recorded data goes, and the differences are just metadata. When you set the ISO to 2000 on all profiles, you added more actual gain on the sensor level to the normal profile shots than to the cine (1 stop) and log (3 stops). If you look closely at your shots, you will probably find that in addition to the gamma differences, the normal profile shot likely has a bit more noise than the cine and log shots due to this additional gain. If your shot had hard highlights, they likely would also burn to white at different points in the raw files (i have not tested this, but in theory this should be the case).
This seems very reasonable, but why not then have a flag that we can disable in the developer. "Ignore Gamma" or something that you put a check next to.
BTW, i just did a quick test, and at least as far as the highlight are concerned, my theory holds... At ISO 2000 the normal mode shot clips to full white earlier than a log profile shot. There is a real difference in the exposure at the sensor level - the ISO is nominally the same, but it actually changes what is recorded in the RAW. So, this also means that there is an actual valid reason to use Cine or Log color profiles when shooting raw: and it's actually the same reason these profiles are used with video. When using Cine, you can underexpose by one stop to protect highlights, and still get a normal looking on-camera preview (and jpegs). Or use slog and underexpose three stops to keep even more highlights while getting a similarly normal looking (albeit low contrast and noisy) image on camera's preview.
Respect for taking an effort to test and investigate it. This is the only proper way for such cases instead of theories on forums. Maybe it is kinda still shifting ISO value no matter the fixed value? I don't think there is "postprocessing" before recording the raw. Might be the ISO value is recorded wrong with the raw ignoring the shift?
It's possible I suppose that the ISO is treated differently when you use those different gammas and that it makes your setting kind of irrelevant. I'll have to investigate further.
Just came across your channel recently (due to it featuring in one of Jeven's Q&A videos) and I must say, you are the PERFECT balance of geeky and entertaining. I love how you go into details about common misconceptions and explain it in a detailed but fun way!! Been catching up on some of your older videos... but just wanted to say... GREAT WORK GERALD!!!
Fascinating. This reminds me of a video I watched by another thorough youtuber who demonstrated that the picture profiles impact the behavior of the in-camera histogram, which indirectly affects the raw file because the shooter adjusts the aperture/shutter/iso settings to manage the change he/she sees on the histogram.
dopamining yes. Some settings actually change the amount the camera itself will meter, so it can have a slight change even though the raw itself won’t.
so grateful for this channel! I was filming an event in slog3 and switched to stills and was so confused as to why the Lightroom preview was so different from the in camera photo. This was incredibly helpful.
Just when I thought I you had explained it all... You clarify a super important topic! Now I'm curious about shooting stills in HLG and what zebra setting to use.
Fascinating! I've been trying trying to change the colours on my SonyA7iii when shooting stills at events (in RAW obviously). I'm going to try PP2 with everything on Still or zero except Cine1 on the gamma. We'll see what happens 🤔 Thank you for this look into Picture Profiles
I thought more people knew about this, I figured this out a while ago when seeing if using Slog changed my RAW files (shooting all tests at ISO 800) and when I realized it did weird things to the color I figured the rest of the gamma adjustment profiles did as well
Choosing profiles with wider or narrower gamma has pros and cons, according to another video by Gerald Undone, more details with narrower ranges (Cine) or less details with wider ranges (Slog2 or 3)
Kasey really likes your Channel and I do too now. Thanks man I’m subbing you your straight to the point and honest and easy to listen to. Informative and entertaining that’s your value and that’s what I need
Yes, that is very true. Also already did these tests on my own a half year before and I just wondered why many sources say photes would not be influenced by Picture Profiles. So when I was on vacation I had to switch the Picture Profile all the time when I wanted to take photos and when I wanted to record a video. Nice work and comparison here.
I used to custom set the PP settings deep in the menu to get my own style of grade or film simulation straight into the raw file. That’s my favourite thing about Sony.
first gig i did with my A7III, i was playing around with all the settings and left my camera on PP7. will at the gig my pictures exposures on the screen where perfect. i soon as i got the files on my computer, they where all under exposed by 2-3 stops lol . i leaned that lesson the hard way
Hi Gerald thanks for the great video. i've been shooting raw on sony camera's for a while i have the Sony a7iii and the Sony A6600 i just shot a video using these cameras and when i went back to shooting photos i notice that my pictures didn't look the same and i thought it was me. But this week i got a call from one of my clients commenting the the quality didn't look the same. So i went thru all my settings and the only setting that was changed was the picture profile settings but i couldn't prove that was the problem till i came across your video. Thanks again!!
Is there somewhere I can download the RAWs with the different gammas? It'd be interesting to take a look at the metadata tags and see if the gamma is specified in there or if it's baked into the raw image data.
That's amazing! I've noticed that it looks funky sometimes, but I've never really bother to test it 😅 thanks for letting us know 🤩🙏 related to the picture profile thing is when you switch between e-shutter. It will display the picture profile when the setting is on. But I don't think that will effect the information.
Hey Gerald, your videos are very informative and well thought out, they have definitely helped me get a deeper understanding of my camera. keep up the good work.
I don't get why Sony keeps messing up with their RAW files. I mean, RAW files SHOULD BE RAW. No treatment. No changes. And yet they already had done some sort of NR before on long-exposures (over 3.2s, which sometimes blurs stars in astro pictures), now this...
see what makes it confusing was that on the camera itself, even though your mode is set to camera raw only, your live preview does change if you change the picture profiles, which threw it off for me a little and i had to double check
If a picture profile (like cine2) helps with dynamic range for video and post-processing, do you recommend also shooting stills with a picture profile on (ie. have my Gamma setting at cine2 (saw your other video on rec - I have a A7ii)?
Thank you for explaining this! Ive been trying to figure out why my photos dont look the same as they do on the back of the camera. I did extensive research on this camera and no one ever mentioned the profile settings dont affect raw photos. :/
Well, because of the nature of raw, the dynamic range should be the same, but some people are suggesting you can reduce the noise by shooting in S-Log2. But I haven't tested the DR.
Changing Picture Profile will not change DN in the RAW files, probably the tags about gamma make LR choose different DCP with different tone curves. USE PRO TOOLS LIKE RAW Digger TO FIND THE ANSWER.
exactly what I suspected!!! I always wondered why profiles named "Picture profiles" and not "Video profiles". The name reflects the real impact at pictures as well. I changed my PP to one with Cine2 and noticed that toning of my photos changed, especially under brighter Sun.. Wondered why and got the answer here.. Thanks Gerald for the good investigation and illustrations!
Great info. thanks. So then would you recommend RAW photographers should leave the PP alone or are there recommendations for low light, sunny/flat day, etc?
Reading these comments, it seemed funny how obvious the effect of image gamma was perfectly obvious coming from having put my way through school back in the 60s to 70s doing darkroom work. Getting into digital and having to learn how the firmware parameters are applied to the information coming off the sensor, knowing that the RAW file is simply the A/D data and a produced JPEG is that data plus the profile modulations AND that what you preview isn't the RAW file itself but it's embedded JPEG, it all seems perfectly logical. What this told me is that gamma adjustments to the "development" process are actually firmware parameters applied before the A/D conversion, just like in the negative development process. Modulated alkalinity, temperature, time and developer concentrations could move the dMax around quite a bit. Damn that was fun back then. It took me back.
Hi Gerald! I always shoot in PP10, as that's the profile I use for video, so I just stick with it for stills. Now I'm worried it's been creating more noise in images? Is it better to leave PP off for stills? What is the practical conclusion of your amazing findings. My brain needs you to hold my hand to the practical repercussions of this for developing still images.
It's annoying that there is no seperate setting of picture profile for video and stills. If that was the case, there would be no confusion. Also I'm curious about what exactly changes when using a Gamma other than "still". It looks to me like a third stop exposure difference or a small contrast difference, which could be easily replicated in raw development.
One thing I wonder about creative profiles and picture profiles is if they affect other things in the process of shooting. I know the creative profiles affect how we see the histogram and potentially how we expose, but would creative profile affect how AF work? Same thing with picture profiles, would it affect how AF work? I was testing home on live subjects using eye-af and stationary subjects with A7iii and A7RV, and it seem like the AF hit better with STD vs Portrait, and it even seem better increasing contrast/sharpness. Is this a thing or is it just me getting lucky those times I increased the values? Could we get DONE on this one?
I was under the assumption that the slog 2 worked on raw images i've been testing it with landscapes and it definitely changed the images or so i thought it did anyway
it's funny how thumbnails may trick you about how the photo looks, I get this all the time on my Lumix (because I set the iDynamic to high) - when I upload files to LR, they suddenly get all dark and contrasty and have to switch to Camera Natural profile to retrieve that thumbnail dynamics
Why didn't you compare the different gammas and explore them further? They don't seem to be changing the image the same way as when you record w video.
Wait, so what gamma should we use??? for the most dynamic range? On my nikon, it was raw, with flat, what's the equivalent of this? on the back of the screen i like: Gamma: Cine1, and color mode: Cinema. looks to have the most dynamic range, at least on the back of the screen. I don't have a good understanding of 'gamma' or what that means, but you said gamma changes the raw files, and we do have to choose a gamma correct? what gamma do you choose?
It would be nice to make a video about video capture rates. I know you talked about it on another video but I think it deserves a seperate video. Like what is better and when, 8bit 4:2:2 or 10bit 4:2:0? Is there a big difference between 8bit 4:2:2 and 10bit 4:2:2? etc.
I'm looking for a way to match timelapse Raw files with Slog 3 video... you would need a custom Profile in LR / Capture One ect otherwise you're using the gamma selected by the camera but getting all kinds of weird issues because the Profile in the raw developer wasn't made for that gamma / color space ect so you'll get strange artifacts.
Hello... I was using a Hlg profile for video recording. I forgot to change it and I shooted sports pictures (photography) with this picture profile. Surprise : The jpg files look better on the sony a6400 screen than on the pc (even inside Lightroom). Is there a way/trick to fix those dark pictures and get something similar as the pictures displayed on the screen? Some batch option in lightroom or in the camera? I shooted in jpg only so I think it's too late. But help is welcome :-)
I am a Canon guy, but I believe this is a valuable info. I know that's a totally different and many-sided topic, but recently I played with a lens from the 70s (eos-adapted) and it fools light meter from time to time. Would be interesting what's going on and who's to blame (meter or adapter or me...). If you have any experience with vintage lenses and their peculiarities, I'd love to hear and see.
wow.... till recently I had a gut feeling that you were a genius... now we have proof ! ;-) hey if you have time to answer this question : so I use a Sony a7s to shoot realtime video of northern lights in XAVC-S , and play around with the numerous available settings ... any suggestion for what picture profile and gamma is best ? not for photo but video, 25 fps , 1/25th sec. , usually around 40'000 ISO, WB 3800K .... I know I should use 1/50th sec when shooting at 25 fps but those darn northern lights are not always that bright , even though I use fast f/1.4 and even f/0.95 lenses ... I guess I'll have to play with gamma then... but am curious to hear your advice ;-)
Northern lights and astrophotography is something I've never really spent any time on. I feel like I would have nothing of value to add. I'd defer this question to someone who has more experience than me in this regard. Sorry! But thanks for the kind words and encouragement on the video. Very much appreciated!
But... Ain't that expected? I mean, the RAW must change if you change for PP2 (still) to, let's say, PP7 (S-Log2) in a scene (for example) with a high DR and clipping, because PP7 would register many more details that PP2 would just toss out, right? So, if you're limited by the processor speed, you have to sacrifice something to process, register and write all that new info...
Well this answered a lot of the questions I had but when you shoot in log do you get more dynamic range? I feel like I get more colors shooting at minimum iso 800 a7riii
Gammagate
😂😂😂😅drama for nerds
LOL
Thank you for covering this info for photography and not just video settings like so many others!
I just did some testing on this. So it's interesting - I wouldn't say it "reduces noise" as much as you seem to gain about 2/3 of a stop of light if you shoot in HLG3 Gamma. So essentially your 51,200 ISO goes a little bit further than it would in the stills gamma. I compared my results and the noise is the same at both ISOs when properly exposed, but you have to essentially compensate more in Still than in HLG3.
Awesome find!
Thank you so much for sharing this info 😊❤
Thank you so much for this video. I was doing some tests with my A7iii, and I couldn't figure out why some photos looked different in RAW when playing with picture profiles. After some googling, I was convinced I was going crazy until I found your video. Thanks again!
Ur killing it bro. U pass on so much advanced photo/ vid knowledge and I seriously learn something new in every video💪🏼💪🏼
Thanks, Jacob! Means a lot.
i really love that this channel covers very niche topics. the info you provide can be found nowhere else
Thanks, Steve! Appreciate it.
Even though I don't have a Sony camera I still liked to watch this video just to make my brain hurt a little
Haha. Thanks for doing so!
Bertram Photography I don’t shoot stills but watched to the end. 😂
I do have an a6400 and my brain hurts bad also
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but what you showed is how I understand that Fujifilm uses their Dynamic Range 200%, 400%, Auto & DR Priority modes. Applying a tone curve to shadows & highlights at different ISO settings.
It’s good for people who shoot JPEG only, using the Cine Gamma for example opens up the shadows and can help avoid crushed blacks. But it comes at a cost to RAW image data being manipulated too.
Great to see it being shown so clearly!
Dude, awesome stuff. I was just explaining to someone the other day how it doesn't matter shooting raw. Guess I was wrong. That's the beauty and frustration of the craft all at once. There's always something new and exciting to learn, but that fact also means we're perpetually ignorant. Thanks for the great content!
Thanks, Eric! I sympathize with that seeing how I was just guilty of it myself. 😃
You just finished my own homework!
I was planning to check if my theory is right.
Literally, you just saved hours of work!
You rock! Always anticipating what your topic is gonna be! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Happy to help! 😃
Thanks for the comment and kind words!
Thanks for the video. Another thing I've noticed is that having Picture Profile enabled or not affects whether the Sony's built-in Lens Compensation (specifically and only Shading Comp.) gets baked into the RAW file. Having a PP on means Shading Comp. is baked into the RAW file, but PP Off means no Shading Comp. in the RAW file.
You would expect Shading Comp. to get baked into the JPEG file as standard, but I always assumed that Lens Comp. would not apply to RAW (at least based on previous experience). Apparently I was wrong. The danger of only having an Auto/Off option for a setting, rather than a fully manual Auto/On/Off.
I wonder how many times I said: "It's exactly the same!" 😜😂
What is the practical use of changing the gamma for stills? Can you please follow up?
I'm not sure at the moment. Personally I've just been using the stills gamma this whole time and been quite happy. Some people are saying you can manipulate it to get a less noisy image, but I haven't tested.
To answer your original question, it is equal to the likes that that comment got...
@@geraldundone Could you test the differences for your next video? Love your content, it's so informative :)
Hey Gerald can you please tell me when Sony raw picture overexposes? What should I set my zebra to like I set it at 107+ for slog2. At zebra does a6500 raw picture reach its clipping point?
I don't own a Sony and don't really know anything about what you're talking about, but it was still interesting! Top notch, man.
Haha. Thanks, Bryan!
Thanks gerald. Top notch work as per usual! One request for another video since you're smart and noone else seems to have reported this. How much quality difference is it shooting in 4k full frame mode than 4k in super35/crop mode on the a7iii. I cannot find a video or anyone saying their results other than "little to no difference" thank you in advanced and absolutely love your work
Thanks, Jason! Appreciate it. And thanks for the suggestion.
Now to determine which gamma is "best"...
Did you find out in a year? :) I look for the one gamma which can lower my ISO:)
@@kerembilgin6839 I'm a Fuji boy now 🤣
I was wondering the same thing. Like if I shoot video in HLS or Cine- can I just leave it like that always when I shoot photos too...? Will it just develop differently but ultimately be just as developable?
That will take years 😑
@@chrisperrywv Have you figured it out?
Here's the deal with the Cine and Log gammas on the Sony cameras: the changing ISO range is just is digital adjustment / metadata inside the camera.
At the sensor level (and actual data in raw files), the sensitivity does not really change. Using a6300 as an example, normal profile @ISO100, Cine @ISO200 and Log @ISO800 are all the same thing.
They all clip to white at the same point, and the blacks are lost in noise at the same point. On jpg and video files, the gamma is adjusted so that Cine looks a stop brighter, and log looks three stops brighter - thus the higher nominal ISO setting.
A similar thing applies to RAW: as far ss i can tell, the above are all the same thing as far as the actual recorded data goes, and the differences are just metadata.
When you set the ISO to 2000 on all profiles, you added more actual gain on the sensor level to the normal profile shots than to the cine (1 stop) and log (3 stops).
If you look closely at your shots, you will probably find that in addition to the gamma differences, the normal profile shot likely has a bit more noise than the cine and log shots due to this additional gain. If your shot had hard highlights, they likely would also burn to white at different points in the raw files (i have not tested this, but in theory this should be the case).
This seems very reasonable, but why not then have a flag that we can disable in the developer. "Ignore Gamma" or something that you put a check next to.
@@geraldundone Good point - i guess they just do not think anyone would shoot stills with log anyway, so they do not see this as a major problem ;-)
BTW, i just did a quick test, and at least as far as the highlight are concerned, my theory holds... At ISO 2000 the normal mode shot clips to full white earlier than a log profile shot. There is a real difference in the exposure at the sensor level - the ISO is nominally the same, but it actually changes what is recorded in the RAW.
So, this also means that there is an actual valid reason to use Cine or Log color profiles when shooting raw: and it's actually the same reason these profiles are used with video.
When using Cine, you can underexpose by one stop to protect highlights, and still get a normal looking on-camera preview (and jpegs). Or use slog and underexpose three stops to keep even more highlights while getting a similarly normal looking (albeit low contrast and noisy) image on camera's preview.
Maybe I missed it, did you mention if these are compressed or uncompressed raw?
I didn't, but they are uncompressed. Good question!
I saw that they are 47 MB and suspected that means no compression. Compressed ones fromy my A7ii are about 25 MB :)
zomgonzo is the raw compression lossy or lossless?
@@tigerheaddude It's lossy-sh :)
It's lossy but if you don't do really extreme editing the loss is negligible IMO.
Respect for taking an effort to test and investigate it. This is the only proper way for such cases instead of theories on forums.
Maybe it is kinda still shifting ISO value no matter the fixed value? I don't think there is "postprocessing" before recording the raw. Might be the ISO value is recorded wrong with the raw ignoring the shift?
It's possible I suppose that the ISO is treated differently when you use those different gammas and that it makes your setting kind of irrelevant. I'll have to investigate further.
Just came across your channel recently (due to it featuring in one of Jeven's Q&A videos) and I must say, you are the PERFECT balance of geeky and entertaining.
I love how you go into details about common misconceptions and explain it in a detailed but fun way!! Been catching up on some of your older videos...
but just wanted to say... GREAT WORK GERALD!!!
Thanks so much! Happy you checked out the channel. Appreciate it. Cheers!
I can confirm this. Gerald saved me after watching this video, after turning off picture profile my photos are so much better now!
Congrats on 40K. Not a Sony user, but all these years I thought Raw is Raw and nothing changes. The usual great thorough job.
Thanks, Phil! Yeah, I was definitely in the same boat.
Fascinating. This reminds me of a video I watched by another thorough youtuber who demonstrated that the picture profiles impact the behavior of the in-camera histogram, which indirectly affects the raw file because the shooter adjusts the aperture/shutter/iso settings to manage the change he/she sees on the histogram.
dopamining yes. Some settings actually change the amount the camera itself will meter, so it can have a slight change even though the raw itself won’t.
so grateful for this channel! I was filming an event in slog3 and switched to stills and was so confused as to why the Lightroom preview was so different from the in camera photo. This was incredibly helpful.
Appreciate how you stick to the facts and avoid the assumptions. You got my subscription. Thank you.
Thanks, Robert! Happy to have a new subscriber. Cheers!
Just when I thought I you had explained it all... You clarify a super important topic!
Now I'm curious about shooting stills in HLG and what zebra setting to use.
Is there a video about what each gamma does and which could possibly be the best to use for stills/raw photos?
All we have to do in the future is to read manual.
Fascinating! I've been trying trying to change the colours on my SonyA7iii when shooting stills at events (in RAW obviously). I'm going to try PP2 with everything on Still or zero except Cine1 on the gamma. We'll see what happens 🤔 Thank you for this look into Picture Profiles
The world just got undone with this one! Outstanding 🌟🌟🌟
Haha. Thanks, Julio!
I thought more people knew about this, I figured this out a while ago when seeing if using Slog changed my RAW files (shooting all tests at ISO 800) and when I realized it did weird things to the color I figured the rest of the gamma adjustment profiles did as well
So in what PP did you decide to shoot when shooting RAW? Do you still shoot in the Still gamma (default)?
Thanks dude. My go to channel for learning everything technical. Shot!
Cheers, Gavin!
So, bottom line - what does this mean? Can we choose a picture profile, adjust gamma and effectively get better low light performance on those images?
I'm questioning this as well
Choosing profiles with wider or narrower gamma has pros and cons, according to another video by Gerald Undone, more details with narrower ranges (Cine) or less details with wider ranges (Slog2 or 3)
I’m here to say it’s most definitely less grain i’m literally blown away at this differences
Kasey really likes your Channel and I do too now. Thanks man I’m subbing you your straight to the point and honest and easy to listen to. Informative and entertaining that’s your value and that’s what I need
Thanks a lot! That's really kind. Happy you subscribed. Look forward to future comments. Cheers!
Man you are incredible.
I learn so much by your each and every video.
keep it up.Hope you will blow up soon.
Love from India.
Thanks so much! Really appreciate this comment. Cheers from Canada!
Gerald's the kind of guy to do the testing on sony cameras and tell us about it so we can look smart in front of our friends.
Haha. Thanks, Logan!
Yes, that is very true. Also already did these tests on my own a half year before and I just wondered why many sources say photes would not be influenced by Picture Profiles. So when I was on vacation I had to switch the Picture Profile all the time when I wanted to take photos and when I wanted to record a video. Nice work and comparison here.
The master researcher at it again!
I used to custom set the PP settings deep in the menu to get my own style of grade or film simulation straight into the raw file. That’s my favourite thing about Sony.
first gig i did with my A7III, i was playing around with all the settings and left my camera on PP7. will at the gig my pictures exposures on the screen where perfect. i soon as i got the files on my computer, they where all under exposed by 2-3 stops lol . i leaned that lesson the hard way
Which was the best gamma for stills you found?
Thanks for this video! The best "fix" that I found is to change the camera profile to Camera SH in the Lightroom Develop module.
Hi Gerald thanks for the great video. i've been shooting raw on sony camera's for a while i have the Sony a7iii and the Sony A6600 i just shot a video using these cameras and when i went back to shooting photos i notice that my pictures didn't look the same and i thought it was me. But this week i got a call from one of my clients commenting the the quality didn't look the same. So i went thru all my settings and the only setting that was changed was the picture profile settings but i couldn't prove that was the problem till i came across your video. Thanks again!!
Is there somewhere I can download the RAWs with the different gammas? It'd be interesting to take a look at the metadata tags and see if the gamma is specified in there or if it's baked into the raw image data.
T Freeman yep!
Shouldnt it be: No for all standard profiles, only when you custom alter the gamma will affect it.
Is there a way to make a picture profile on sony a7iv that will look like a kodak portra film shot?
That's amazing! I've noticed that it looks funky sometimes, but I've never really bother to test it 😅 thanks for letting us know 🤩🙏 related to the picture profile thing is when you switch between e-shutter. It will display the picture profile when the setting is on. But I don't think that will effect the information.
Hey Gerald, your videos are very informative and well thought out, they have definitely helped me get a deeper understanding of my camera. keep up the good work.
Thanks for letting me know that! I'm really glad. Appreciate this.
is it best to shoot photos in RAW with picturee profiles enabled or disabled ?
Cine1 Gamma + Aperture Priority produces great RAW results in Photography so far, especially in Portraits.
thank you, shooting in raw, im confuse in standard and neutral when shooting in raw, now iknow that it all the same. thanks
Yeah, Gerald Undone confirmed, picture profile off when i am shooting timelapse, thanks so much for this video
So will S-Log2 gamma have more dynamic range than Cine 1 when shooting Raw? Also, which gamma has the lease noise? Great video btw
I don't get why Sony keeps messing up with their RAW files. I mean, RAW files SHOULD BE RAW. No treatment. No changes. And yet they already had done some sort of NR before on long-exposures (over 3.2s, which sometimes blurs stars in astro pictures), now this...
see what makes it confusing was that on the camera itself, even though your mode is set to camera raw only, your live preview does change if you change the picture profiles, which threw it off for me a little and i had to double check
Excellent job of making a very complex subject easy to understand.
Learn something new every day, right?
Thx for this, Gerald.
Sure do! Thanks for the comment.
If a picture profile (like cine2) helps with dynamic range for video and post-processing, do you recommend also shooting stills with a picture profile on (ie. have my Gamma setting at cine2 (saw your other video on rec - I have a A7ii)?
I would like to know the same thing. Could you, please, tell us, if you have found out anything regarding this?
Picture profiles actually don't affect raw shooting. So we are all good!
Thank you for explaining this! Ive been trying to figure out why my photos dont look the same as they do on the back of the camera. I did extensive research on this camera and no one ever mentioned the profile settings dont affect raw photos. :/
Always covering interesting an useful topics! Great work.
Thanks, Alex.
thank you for putting so much knowledge on your videos!
So would you suggest shooting raw images with a certain gamma to improve dynamic range? Or is the same data essentially there just with a curve added?
Jason Taylor this is what I wanna know?
Well, because of the nature of raw, the dynamic range should be the same, but some people are suggesting you can reduce the noise by shooting in S-Log2. But I haven't tested the DR.
@@geraldundone some said you should shoot with hlg 3 to have the clipping alert that are the most accurate with the histogram
@@geraldundone When using SLog2 the minimum ISO is 800. Most experts suggest that DR in RAW files is best at ISO 100 or am I missing something?
Jason Taylor I would think still gamma would be the best but this is a good idea for a test video on that subject t
Changing Picture Profile will not change DN in the RAW files, probably the tags about gamma make LR choose different DCP with different tone curves. USE PRO TOOLS LIKE RAW Digger TO FIND THE ANSWER.
exactly what I suspected!!! I always wondered why profiles named "Picture profiles" and not "Video profiles". The name reflects the real impact at pictures as well.
I changed my PP to one with Cine2 and noticed that toning of my photos changed, especially under brighter Sun.. Wondered why and got the answer here..
Thanks Gerald for the good investigation and illustrations!
It actually tells you this is Sony documentation. I believe they say it affects black point
Right, he showed the manual where this is mentioned.
Thank You for this video. Do different gammas have different dynamic range?
Great info. thanks. So then would you recommend RAW photographers should leave the PP alone or are there recommendations for low light, sunny/flat day, etc?
Reading these comments, it seemed funny how obvious the effect of image gamma was perfectly obvious coming from having put my way through school back in the 60s to 70s doing darkroom work. Getting into digital and having to learn how the firmware parameters are applied to the information coming off the sensor, knowing that the RAW file is simply the A/D data and a produced JPEG is that data plus the profile modulations AND that what you preview isn't the RAW file itself but it's embedded JPEG, it all seems perfectly logical. What this told me is that gamma adjustments to the "development" process are actually firmware parameters applied before the A/D conversion, just like in the negative development process. Modulated alkalinity, temperature, time and developer concentrations could move the dMax around quite a bit. Damn that was fun back then. It took me back.
That's a fun way of looking at it. Thanks for the comparison! Cheers.
Amazing! Thank you so much for doing all the research and presenting it to us!!
Hi Gerald! I always shoot in PP10, as that's the profile I use for video, so I just stick with it for stills. Now I'm worried it's been creating more noise in images? Is it better to leave PP off for stills? What is the practical conclusion of your amazing findings. My brain needs you to hold my hand to the practical repercussions of this for developing still images.
Thanks Gerald. Great video. I noticed the changes in Picture Profiles in Raw too, but I thought I was just nuts! :)
Thank you G.U for doing this and getting the message out there
Can't sleep..will watch this!
Ha. Sounds good! Thanks, Marvin.
It's annoying that there is no seperate setting of picture profile for video and stills. If that was the case, there would be no confusion.
Also I'm curious about what exactly changes when using a Gamma other than "still". It looks to me like a third stop exposure difference or a small contrast difference, which could be easily replicated in raw development.
One thing I wonder about creative profiles and picture profiles is if they affect other things in the process of shooting. I know the creative profiles affect how we see the histogram and potentially how we expose, but would creative profile affect how AF work? Same thing with picture profiles, would it affect how AF work? I was testing home on live subjects using eye-af and stationary subjects with A7iii and A7RV, and it seem like the AF hit better with STD vs Portrait, and it even seem better increasing contrast/sharpness. Is this a thing or is it just me getting lucky those times I increased the values? Could we get DONE on this one?
New insights for me, thank you very much!
I was under the assumption that the slog 2 worked on raw images i've been testing it with landscapes and it definitely changed the images or so i thought it did anyway
You were right!
it's funny how thumbnails may trick you about how the photo looks, I get this all the time on my Lumix (because I set the iDynamic to high) - when I upload files to LR, they suddenly get all dark and contrasty and have to switch to Camera Natural profile to retrieve that thumbnail dynamics
Take a shot every time he says picture profile. Great video man! Love the explanation
Thank you, That was more extreme than I would have thought. Good to know.
Why didn't you compare the different gammas and explore them further? They don't seem to be changing the image the same way as when you record w video.
Thank you for your test
It did help me resolve my confusion
I don't shoot Sony but I found this interesting, thanks for sharing =)
Thanks, Michael. Appreciate you tuning in anyway. Cheers!
Thanks a lot Gerald! This is very helpful and informative video.
Thank YOU for explaining this stuff, I really needed this information. Thank you for this great video :)
You're very welcome! Happy to help. Thanks for the comment.
Wait, so what gamma should we use??? for the most dynamic range? On my nikon, it was raw, with flat, what's the equivalent of this? on the back of the screen i like: Gamma: Cine1, and color mode: Cinema. looks to have the most dynamic range, at least on the back of the screen. I don't have a good understanding of 'gamma' or what that means, but you said gamma changes the raw files, and we do have to choose a gamma correct? what gamma do you choose?
It would be nice to make a video about video capture rates. I know you talked about it on another video but I think it deserves a seperate video.
Like what is better and when, 8bit 4:2:2 or 10bit 4:2:0? Is there a big difference between 8bit 4:2:2 and 10bit 4:2:2? etc.
Holy mind blown Batman. Sensory overload!🤯
Doesn’t light room just correct it into it’s one color space though?
I'm looking for a way to match timelapse Raw files with Slog 3 video... you would need a custom Profile in LR / Capture One ect otherwise you're using the gamma selected by the camera but getting all kinds of weird issues because the Profile in the raw developer wasn't made for that gamma / color space ect so you'll get strange artifacts.
I just did a test this morning and they do effect the raw photos on my Sony a6400.
Does it make better to collor grade on picture profile 07(s-log 2) for instance? I'm confused, ty.
Oh Great . I was shooting video using a custom PP and some times in the meanwhile I shoot Raw images thinking that it doesn't effect .
Hello... I was using a Hlg profile for video recording. I forgot to change it and I shooted sports pictures (photography) with this picture profile. Surprise : The jpg files look better on the sony a6400 screen than on the pc (even inside Lightroom). Is there a way/trick to fix those dark pictures and get something similar as the pictures displayed on the screen? Some batch option in lightroom or in the camera? I shooted in jpg only so I think it's too late. But help is welcome :-)
Thanks a ton for this. Very helpful and informative.
Your Rubix Cube looks just like mine. That's how you know how smart I am. Smart enough to NEVER change it. :)
I am a Canon guy, but I believe this is a valuable info. I know that's a totally different and many-sided topic, but recently I played with a lens from the 70s (eos-adapted) and it fools light meter from time to time. Would be interesting what's going on and who's to blame (meter or adapter or me...). If you have any experience with vintage lenses and their peculiarities, I'd love to hear and see.
Such a great channel! Easy subscribe.. thank you for the videos! Super helpful!
Thanks, Jonathon! Appreciate the subscribe. Look forward to future comments!
wow.... till recently I had a gut feeling that you were a genius... now we have proof ! ;-)
hey if you have time to answer this question : so I use a Sony a7s to shoot realtime video of northern lights in XAVC-S , and play around with the numerous available settings ... any suggestion for what picture profile and gamma is best ? not for photo but video, 25 fps , 1/25th sec. , usually around 40'000 ISO, WB 3800K .... I know I should use 1/50th sec when shooting at 25 fps but those darn northern lights are not always that bright , even though I use fast f/1.4 and even f/0.95 lenses ... I guess I'll have to play with gamma then... but am curious to hear your advice ;-)
Northern lights and astrophotography is something I've never really spent any time on. I feel like I would have nothing of value to add. I'd defer this question to someone who has more experience than me in this regard. Sorry!
But thanks for the kind words and encouragement on the video. Very much appreciated!
But... Ain't that expected? I mean, the RAW must change if you change for PP2 (still) to, let's say, PP7 (S-Log2) in a scene (for example) with a high DR and clipping, because PP7 would register many more details that PP2 would just toss out, right? So, if you're limited by the processor speed, you have to sacrifice something to process, register and write all that new info...
Well this answered a lot of the questions I had but when you shoot in log do you get more dynamic range? I feel like I get more colors shooting at minimum iso 800 a7riii