Why Zwarte Piet is NOT Racist (in my humble opinion)
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- čas přidán 7. 12. 2017
- It's that time of year again, pepernoten all around, carrots in clogs, coming together to sing Sinterklaasliedjes and various hitpieces from international newspapers targeting Zwarte Piet as a blackface, racist "colonial hangover" based on a slave. In this video I will defend Zwarte Piet and put forward why I believe he is far from racist and is actually a positive figure for black people in the Netherlands. Of course this is only my opinion and you may disagree - I'd love to hear all about it in the comment section although I do ask that everyone remains civil and respectful of one another.
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They see a black man and instantly think of him as a slave. Now who's the racist here?
The black people who had a problem with this
Xavier Wiltshire usually it isn't blacks who had a problem.
Nuikoimi Koru, imaginary insults even.
Nuikoimi Koru the fact is a reprentation of a back man with big red lip, or a white man pretending to be black is racist.....
This a fact.
Nuikoimi Koru it was actually look it up
I'm Indonesian, from a very small town called Ambon,, every year on December 5th, you'll see Sinterklaas and Zwartepiet around, it's one of our Christmas tradition inherited from Dutch..
Thats really cool! Happy Sinterklaas!
Nice, you have pictures, videos or links ,to see ?
woh, Christmas tradition ?? your far off man.
Wow, amazing to hear that! I had heard that it used to be celebrated before the war, but I wasn't aware that it was still going on. Happy holidays!
Wow, that's very interesting. And what are your thoughts on the matter? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? What are your thoughts on Zwarte Piet?
When I was growing up I looked up to the zwatte pieten they were my heros
Het is heroes maat niet om gemeen tezijn maar dadelijk komt zo'n engels type en gaat je nitpicken
They where my heroes to fortunatly i got to celebrate december 5th in its glory days when it wasnt concidered racism
Sure thats why u have action dolls and posters of black pete all over you house? Lmfao foh
@@Jblah Of course!. How do you know?.
*Z W A T T E P I E T*
A Hilbert...... What happened to the Dutch national anthem?????? You're slacking mate.😎
I watched the videos mainly for that part which never came 😢
what happened?
So what actually happened to the anthem?
Because it is a serious video mate
Soo, what happened?
*angry comments incoming*
incoming*
lol
YTS hindsight
Aboard Games That is 100% correct and Then Americans use pepole with dwarfgrowth is That not even worse?
Because dwarfs are a real minority in comparingson with black pepole in the world.
Beat this fokes
I am a Dutch 57 year old male. As a child, I swear I never saw Zwarte Piet as a black person. He could make himself invisible, he knew everything, was more athletic and more intelligent than Sinterklaas, gave me my presents, filled the book of wisdom, and steered the steam boat. I thought he was a superangel! But then again, I never saw a black person in real life until I was 12 years old. So, it would have been difficult to associate.
Good for you for not being racist. I just hope your self aware enough to understand that not everyone thinks the way you do and you this an ammo for the racist transgressions
Wow until you were 12?!
Lol. Hoe? Ik had in de kleuterklas vrienden met een donkere huidskleur. Ik had zelfs een vrouw uit Suriname die regelmatig op mij paste. Kom je toevallig uit een dorp? Want dan kan ik het opzich nog begrijpen.
@@marvin9860That's not racist. How dare u to insult some1. If u see him as black that has more to do with racism because u talk abt race.
Every time the Israelites went into captivity, the prophets, the good, bad, and ugly went too. Just a little mental appetizer for the unlearned.
*Screams in Silvana Simons
Jeroen Du Moulin 😂😂
Ze heeft nu VI gevonden om te zeiken
J
@
Í
W.v.d h
“Thats it, get in the sack, we’re going back to spain”
“NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO”
"you have been a very naughty boy, you are going to Brazil"
"i don't want to go to Brazil"
"fine im sending you to Spain in a sack"
NOOO
The same thing happened to Andrés Iniesta (the bane of the Dutch). He posted a picture with his friends on The Three Wise Men's Day, one of whom was dressed as Balthazar. This friend was of course wearing blackface because Balthazar was black and that's the traditional thing to do in Spain, so immediately the internet flipped out and labeled him racist without having any context of what was going on. I don't even agree with the reason people claim that blackface is racist in the context of the US, but to extrapolate that to the rest of the world is even more absurd.
Blackface is a Completely different figure then "Zwarte Piet" ,with a different History .
Blackface is maybe about 150 years old
"Zwarte Piet"is from primeval times,It is also not a Christmas character
And why the focus on the color black ?
in Africa black People uses white clay to make their Face White !.So whats the Problem ???
czcams.com/video/6MQ_XtsrRkQ/video.html
The same czcams.com/video/urYBdi2uX_s/video.html
Americans have a hard time looking at the world from a perspective other that their own.
EXACTLY!
So you don't think that European countries that benefited from the enslavement of africans will not be racist against people of african descent??
@@cwanjohi Somehow we don't have as much structural racism as the US. And no, most people that aren't far right extremists don't have anything against people with darker skin. European countries didn't have segregation either.
Unrelated to the whole racism controversy nitpick:
Saying that St Nicholas was from Turkey is terribly anachronistic to me. I would prefer You rather say "modern day Turkey", or Anatolia, or Asia Minor.
As for the controversy, I wonder if having the Piet played by actual black/dark skinned people would hellp the situation? As many people have problems with the "black face" itself, given the connotations it has (especially for Americans).
He should've said: "Saint Nicolas was a Greek bishop from the city of Myra in the Roman province of Lycia which is now part of modern-day Turkey."
There are dark skinned people who paint their own faces in a much darker shade, not all non-white people are against this tradition. You'd be surprised to see that in the Dutch-Antilles there are a lot of natives to those countries that still cerebrate Sinterklaas despite there being very few white people on the islands themselves
The truth is that we, the Dutch, have had black merchants and traders in our ports for hundreds of years. We do not have the same racism problems that America or even other European countries have. Comparing black Pete with blackface is extremely insulting. Blackface was a huge part of American racism and slavery. It was something that existed for white people to laugh at black people. Black Pete is not like that at all as explained in the video. I don’t think we should change our culture because foreigners have problems with it. I think those others might need to get a bit more of a Dutch stance regarding racism. The fear around the n-word that plagues America does not exist here.
I have already seen black people play zwarte piet and paint their face black.
@@Carebear_Pooh true..100% agree
I'm learning Dutch now and your videos about Dutch culture and history make it a lot more interesting
Hoever ben je all? Ik vindt het goed dat mensen uit andere landen nederlands leren
Hallo, wat leuk dat er iemand is die Nederlands probeert te leren nog veel suc6 , en ben je ooit naar Nederland op vakantie geweest? Je interesse naar onze cultuur en taal wordt zeker gewaardeerd
curious as to how youre progressing as im also learning the dutch language, but i still find it very much challenging to stop learning lithuanian and spanish ;-;
I'm Dutch and my whole family lineage is Dutch. I'm telling you, please do not learn from Hilbert, his channel should be named History ACCORDING TO Hilbert not History With Hilbert.
The problem is here that we're dealing with a small group of people, but these people have a loud voice and have the ability to manipulate other people into going along with their beliefs. The US (and the EU now, too) are infested with people like these, who scream bloody murder over anything they _perceive_ as racist, sexist., etc., but may not actually be such if you look at the context and data surrounding it (which they hardly, if ever, do).
This whole ordeal with Zwarte Piet didn;t start until a few years ago, when a few influential African-Americans visited The Netherlands, saw a character in Blackface, and instantly believed this was done due to racism, even though they had no clue what was really going on, or even how the character came to be. This was also around the time he Sinterklaas feast was about to be recognized as cultural heritage by the UN. This lead to a lot of media exposute, both domestic and abraod, and sadly, it got a racist undertone.
Now, I can understand where they're coming from. In the US, Blackface was used to mock people with dark skin color, and even though slavery was abolished years before, the caricature stuck until pretty much the end of the 1950s, when the civil rights movements gained traction. In Europe, though, I don't think people saw a racist connotation to this, hence why this caricature persisted for much longer here, and that might explain why the problems with ZP are only bubbling up now, rather a few decades ago.
Frankly, I don't really see a short-term solution to this problem. ZP is a very popular character, and his traditional outfit (including the Blackface) is still seen as the "real" ZP, and it will take several generations to change this. However, the protesters want it NOW, which is why there is a lot of backlash against it, and why the protests are becoming more and more fierce and include a lot of famous people. Personally, I think the character is fine the way it is, because I know that ZP isn't a racist figure. However, I'm also somewhat of a traditionalist here, so maybe I'm just too blind to see it.
You are a bit blind to it because it does not offend you personally. This discussion has been going on since 1947!
This discussion did not start recently. It has been going on for decades already, but you just weren't interested in it.
@@pixlpionier I didn't hear about it until this became mainstream news, which was ~10-15 years ago? Before that, I've never heard anyone here talk about, let alone demand, change.
Frankly, I see a short and long-term solution to this "problem": we should avoid and ignore American "cultural" exports.
It’s not racist at all, but I see how it can easily be perceived as such. I’m not against the change, but it does make me sad that it has to.
(From Nl)
It really doesn't have to change though...
Envy West I respect this opinion. I feel like keeping your tradition is okay but changing the fact that a white man paints himself black and parades around with red lips and a curly wig..
@@marishamcdowell552 don't transpose American issues onto cultures which you don't understand. Your blackface is directly aiming to ridicule people of colour in a country which was segregated 50 years ago. You got issues. They ain't ours.
@@libertasvirtusveritas9749 America is a very bad influence to the world, they have too much freedom
@@user-uq3um5nq7d what sense does that make? having freedom is a bad thing? lmfao
thats right, in the netherlands we threaten people with being taken to spain.
Godverdomme Hilbert, ge zijt nu mijn favoriete Jouwtuber
is het dan niet jouwbuizer
Mike Pence >kijkt een video over Nederlandse tradities
>oh nee dit is geen engels dus ik noem het wel chinees
:thinking:
Mike Pence alright mister vice president
Mike Pence it's Dutch, mister obvious!! It's a video about the Netherlands!
Helemaal mee eens
I found it really interesting that there maybe is a link between some nordic stuff, sinds the north of the Netherlands also has some nordic blood in them. Learned something new, so thank you :)
It's funny how german and dutch traditions are so similar. In Germany and Austria too i believe St. Nicolas has a little helper too, called Knecht Ruprecht. He is way harder and more evil than Zwarte Piet (he beats the naughty kids up if they have done really bad stuff). Zwarte Piet is just this friendly guy who isnt portrayed really evil at all
If Santa has to also go down the chimney then why is he also not black face just answer that part.
no german is more like: dutch but on crack
@@SuperiorRecaps Because Santa has other features hiding who he is. Namely an oversized beard and a hat covering up his hair.
@@SuperiorRecaps i dont think the german or dutch santa go down the chimney. the german santa leaves stuff at the door and the dutch santa has his piets to hand out presents
@@SuperiorRecaps yeah…. Make stinking Saint Nicholas black
I grew up in the U.K. with Dutch/Frisian grandparents that still maintained Dutch traditions. I was told that if I was naughty I’d get no presents and the ‘black men’ would come and take me away. Maybe it’s different now, and maybe there wasn’t any intent to be racist but it was/is racist. I’d like to see Piet be covered in soot not black face and to lose the red lips and wig (but keep the costume and earrings). That will keep the tradition going, remain true to the story but remove the nasty undertones.
@jpc1918 also, the exact image of a racist stereotype.
When your children's fairytale is indistinguishable from Nazi propaganda, you have a problem
@Oricand but the problem is that people think zwarte pieten are monsters, but I honestly can't think of anyone children here love more(outside of there parents).
"That will keep the tradition going" I don't think you understand how traditions work. I don't think it's right for people in other countries to tell people in a foreign country to stop celebrating their traditions.
@@steffen6987 I’m not saying to stop the tradition, I’m saying to make it less racist. I’m genetically Dutch, I have a Dutch name, I celebrate sinterklaasfeest, I’m allowed to live in the Netherlands and visit there often as I’m only 1.5 hours away. My diet growing up was pickled herring and cheese, I still have my childhood klompen which my grandfather carved as he was a carpenter. I worked for a dutch bank for many years, taking a break to return to London for a while but I’m aiming to retire back to the Nederlands. This is my childhood and family tradition we are talking about so, yes I’m allowed an opinion on it. The newer generation might want to say it’s “just soot, there’s nothing else to it” (as in this recording) but I’m older and when me, my brothers, my cousins (both in the UK and Nederlands) were told the story it was about the “naughty boys and girls were taken away by the dark men” as it refers to the Dutch history with the moors. If it is just soot then there’s no need for the lips and curly hair, just remove them and wipe the face with smears of black. But people still want full black face, big red lips, and curly wigs whilst still claiming it’s got nothing to do with race “it’s just soot”
We Dutch people don't want to be involved in identity politics. Laws for preventing people being offended means the end of freedom.
Dus voor jou is het uiten van racisme onderdeel van je vrijheid? Vreemde cultuur heb jij.
PS: Nee? Echt geen identiteitspolitiek? Is dat ook de reden dat Baudet en Wilders niet kunnen stoppen met janken over het 'verlies van de Nederlandse identiteit'?
@@utilitymonster8267 Waar heb ik gezegd dat racisme toegestaan is? Iemand beledigen is zeker niet altijd racistisch. Zwarte Piet bijvoorbeeld kan misschien beledigend zijn (wat ik me trouwens al niet goed kan voorstellen) maar is totaal niet racistisch in mijn opinie. Natuurlijk moet racisme aangepakt worden maar wat er nu gaande is in de wereld (zoals de gender pronoun wetten in Canada) is puur een teken van het afbrokkelen van de westerse samenleving. Met identiteitspolitiek bedoel ik natuurlijk niet dat er niet gediscussieerd mag worden over culturele identiteit maar wat ik bedoel is dat er zich dogmatische 'slachtoffer' groepen vormen in Nederland wat een slechte ontwikkeling is.
hummaniehukannie j8m, ja en die slachtoffer-groepen zijn mensen die zich aanstellen dat onze identiteit verloren gaat.
En hoe is her afbrokkelen van de cultuur dat blackface weg moet? Je zou je zorgen moeten maken om een politicus in de tweede kamer die pleit voor een einde aan de vrijheid van godsdienst, dát is het einde van het Europese humanisme.
+[-______-]
Het concept van "blackface" komt voort uit Amerikaanse "Minstrel shows", waar racistische Witte Amerikanen zich verkleden als Zwarte medemensen, om de Zwarte medemens belachelijk te maken en zodat het Witte publiek kon lachen om de Zwarte Amerikanen.
Vertel me eens; hoe kan een land wat geen enkele geschiedenis met Minstrel shows heeft mogelijkerwijs aan "blackface" doen? Ik bedoel, Zwarte Piet is niet uit de Verenigde Staten geïmporteerd.....
Ahsim Nreiziev, puur dat blackface hier Zwarte Piet heet wil niet zeggen dat het niet blackface is. Welke relevante verschillen zijn er tussen de twee?
Saint Nicholas wasn't a bishop in Turkey, he was a bishop in the Eastern Roman Empire.
Snakesborough Evil ottoman laughs.
@benter1978 Yes, but it wasn't Turkey in the days of Saint Nicholas. To say that Saint Nicholas was from Turkey is just as silly as saying that a native American born a thousand years ago was from the USA.
Well there are many country used to be part East Roman empire. Saying that he from Turkey will spesific the details better.
@@wakakabravo7998 Total bullshit. There were no Turks in Asia Minor for hundreds and hundreds of years after Saint Nicholas was a bishop. The Turks didn't invade Asia Minor until after the battle of Manzikert in 1071.
@@wakakabravo7998 Then he should just say Anatolia or Asia minor
This video is over 5 years old. I am curious if you changed your opinion in the meantime. I disagree with you based on this:
Your explainer video starts with the substantiation that Zwarte Piet does not represent a slave, but in my opinion that's completely irrelevant because that association is there and it is not far-fetched. In old, national newspapers, the character is often referred to with the n-word. In a Sinterklaas story in a national newspaper from last century, it is stated that Zwarte Pieten come from "n-word village" from Africa. We also see in old children's books from the first half of the 1900s that he sometimes has a neck clamp or chain on his foot. And then the Piets also arrive in the Netherlands by steamer! The character also has an afro wig (from the chimney?), accentuated red lips (from the chimney?) and a pageboy suit... On vinyl records from my childhood, Zwarte Piet had a Surinamese accent as well and also spoke abominable Dutch: "Me not understand, Saint Nicholas. Zwarte Piet little dumb". There are also stories where Zwarte Piet calls Saint Nicholas "master" or "bwana". Based on all this, I think that the arguments "the original intention wasn't racist" or "he is black from the chimney" are totally not relevant.
I find references to very old traditions far-fetched. It is very unlikely that Zwarte Piet is directly based on these old traditions because Sint's helper only appears for the first time in paintings, books, etc. in the 19th century. In college I found some sources before the 19th century about the Dutch Saint Nicholas celebration. None of them mentioned Zwarte Piet. Also, in old Dutch books about foreign Saint Nicholas traditions (like Krampus) there is not a single reference to Zwarte Piet. After Schenkman's book, we see those references for the first time. And one year after the publication of Schenkman's book we see Zwarte Piet show up in Belgium for the first time in history.
It is very plausible, however, that the Dutch tradition is based on foreign traditions, such as Krampus. However, that does not make it a Dutch tradition that goes back hundreds of years. Otherwise you could start wearing a kilt today and call it a Dutch tradition.
One of the conclusions of the study you quote was that children who are older do associate Zwarte Piet with people of color. In addition, several academic studies that were published in the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s (you can find a study by dr. Hovinga online) show that children of color sometimes feel very uncomfortable and are often compared to Zwarte Piet. This was also apparent from the research of Prof. dr. Kalverboer.
Anyway, I think that the argument "children don't experience the racist aspects", even if it were correct, is not a strong one. According to the same logic you can show children XTC and conclude: It is okay to show children XTC because they don't associate it with drugs. They think that they are looking at mints or cough drops!
So, I am happy that the tradition is changing. And as a father I want the tradition to be a great experience of children of all colors, including the children who are not believers anymore.
Thank you for the explanation! My first Christmas in The Netherlands I was in shock, didn't know what to think about Zwarte Piet in the middle of all of the discussion. Since I am Portuguese (we also have a historical link to slavery, maybe bigger than the Dutch) I understand why it is such a problem. I actually enjoyed the colourful Pieten solution (green, purple, yellow) that were on the streets last year or the year before. I think even if the creation of the character is completely innocent it is important to improve our narratives and our traditions throughout the years.
Tânia Cardoso no it is bad, black pete is tradition and shouldn't be changed it is our herritage, and the colorpetes are horrible. I understand that you don't have any connection with our history and culture but for us it is very important. There is nothing bad about it and was used to combat rascism. Outside of the Randstad everyone loves him even black people! When the colorpetes where on tv my nephew and niece even refused to watch it because black pete wasn't in it.
@@xenonn7275 you do realize that Zwarte Piet was introduced in 1850 while Sinterklaus as a holiday was introduced centuries ago...before the 1870s there was no Zwarte Piet..and if something can get introduced then it can also become modified. You must realize that world is becoming more global and modern and everyone's view matters. With the exception of your nephew and niece..most children don't care about the color of the petes but the holiday itself
Thats like changing santa to a goth with anorexia. For an outsider it wouldn't matter, because they didn't grow up with it.
But we've grown up with it, my Neighbors grew up with him, i was asked to play Zwarte Piet multiple times to toss candy and give the kids a hug.
It's important to them because people actually believe in Sinterklaas, as opposed to santa because an entire, generation wide play is created around them.
Have a parade where Sint enters the country, have an entire children news channel dedicated to him, have people dress up as Sint and Zwarte Piet and you've created a fun few days of presents, happiness and, most importantly CONSISTENCY.
If Zwarte Piet suddenly became rainbow coloured i would not be happy, they are called zwarte piet, i've heard them be called 'Zwarte Piet' for 22 years, you can't just switch that because black people want something to whine about.
@@Jahshehs Blackface is a Completely different figure then "Zwarte Piet" ,with a different History .
Blackface is maybe about 150 years old
"Zwarte Piet"is from primeval times,It is also not a Christmas character
And why the focus on the color black ?
in Africa black People uses white clay to make their Face White !.So whats the Problem ???
czcams.com/video/6MQ_XtsrRkQ/video.html
The same czcams.com/video/urYBdi2uX_s/video.html
@@xenonn7275 This is not true though, even outside of the Randstad there are many people against Black Piet, Apeldoorn even started the trend of having exclusively Soot Piet when they hosted the national arrival of Sinterklaas. Personally I like Soot Piet better than Rainbow Piet, because it references the idea of Piet climbing in the chimney, without having the racist stereotype.
"In 1850, the Amsterdam-based primary school teacher Jan Schenkman published the book Sint Nikolaas en zijn Knecht ("Saint Nicholas and his Servant" in English). It's widely considered the first time a servant character was included in a printed version of the Saint Nicholas narrative. The servant is depicted as a page who appears as a dark-skinned person wearing clothes associated with Moors." If the first depiction of Zwarte Piet as the dark-skinned character we see happened in 1850, with blackface being popular around that time (as early as 1830s) , couldn't there be cross-contamination between the two?
Zwarte Piet is a catholic version of ancient pagan Krampus.
In Belgium zwarte piet is kind of tolerated. There wasn't a big discussion but they changed the zwarte piet in a roetpiet (soot peter) and let it slide.
Well that's only the official one of course but that one is owned by the VRT. On unoficial occasions you still see him fully painted black.
@@bailey03 There will be always be blacked faced petes. Its from our heritage and it will always stick with somebody.
@@sprotlap Zwart Piet is from a book written by Jan Schenkman in 1850. Thus it isn't heritage..Sinterklaus has existed for centuries though...
@@Jahshehs well I don't know when a century old tradition becomes a heritage but it will be something that won't go away just because some people find it offensive.
@@sprotlap the issue isn't for Piet to go away. It is for him to become more acceptable for all. As seen from basical utility theory, Zwart piet is not Pareto Optimal. Basically you improve some people's perception of the entire holiday without making it worse for others . Roetveegpiet for example makes more sense if we are to follow the norm that Piet is black because of the Soot. The children for whom this holiday actually is for don't mind and in that case then all child of all races will be able to enjoy the holiday. We must realize that Netherlands in 1850 is very different from the Netherlands today with regards to how race is viewed.
I’m half-Dutch, my family used to to sinterklaas in the UK and never did I think about his skin colour or even care about it.
Sadly the protestors want you to care.
that doesn't matter, African and non white children in dutch schools are still subjected to being called Zwarte Piet, plus the previous protest to end the nasty tradition clearly shows Africans aren't happy with this. Just because a white child doesn't notice its racist doesn't mean its racist.
@@papabroke7567 I had no issue with it thinking it was just tradition but now you say it I can see how it can be used in a horrible way
@@papabroke7567 this tradition isn't racist and neither is blackface. I can understand if somebody use black face to to mean something as racist or to portray something as racist then that would be a problem with that individual using blackface it wouldn't be a problem with blackface in itself let's not forget that the Wayans brothers made the movie White Chicks and I don't know anybody who has a problem with that movie including white people. The whole idea of other races dressing as other races goes back for such an incredibly long time and has never really offended people the only people that ever get offended are black Americans or just Americans in general who have been subjected to much much propaganda to make them believe that everything is racist just because somebody is portraying the black person doesn't mean that they are racist it's just simply not true and if you use common sense you'd understand that.
A year or so ago I was reading through old Dutch newspapers from the 1800s for an unrelated project, and I found a little article about Sinterklaas and Piet arriving at the (then recently opened) Centraal Station in Amsterdam, around 1890 or so. I don't remember the exact details, but the characterization of Piet was interesting to me. I'll have to see if I can find it again.
Hilbert thanks again for the great content" PS do a cheeky 'mini special or something about 'de blokkeer Friezen in dutch i would realy like your opinion .
btw. if you want to understand why dutch people are so reluctant in changing it,
imagine being a 4 year old child and coming to school. then all of a sudden theres this holdup and nobody knows why. then we get to the school and then all the furniture is moved, and we keep finding black handprints everywhere on walls and everything (black paint ofc). the rest of our day is spent putting all the furniture in order and we keep finding candy and presents everywhere. of course our teachers just placed that prank on us, but we truly believed we were pranked by zwarte piet. just imagine what an impression that leaves on a kid.
christmas is boring. sinterklaas is sweet but still boring.
nah. zwarte piet is the meaning of sinterklaas. in fact you could change the hollidays name to 'zwarte piet dag' right away.
(id even say if you view sinterklaas as some slavetrader, and zwarte piet
as slaves, you yourself are giving a meaning to it we never did. so
chapeau)
11:50 so wait a second. You think that just because slavery is being abolished that a character won't be popular? Look at blackface in the US, it continued well after slavery was abolished and made its way into films where people like Bing Crosby or Ronald Reagan actually were doing it...
exactly, black face is a continuum of past racist behaviours
It was a popular character 4 years before slavery was abolished, not after
Yeah, that's a pretty weak argument that doesn't really appreciate the complexity of slavery. People in slave societies don't necessarily hate slaves and slave characters, as long as they are in their place, serving and not complaining.
@@mankytoes that sounds racist asf
@@dennisdamave7606 You have a disgusting caricature of Black people. My skin color and hair are not costumes for people to put on and take off. You people are bigots.
Again, great context man! Wish our MSM would pick this up one day….but then again; the video is three years old🤨
Anyway; its great stuff you got going👍
Zwarte piet is racist and it will be removed
Initial reaction of seeing a black man being a white man’s servant is touchy but looking further into history you get a better understanding of the tradition.
so if im a white business owner and i have a black employee does that make me rascist
Noah Miller yes hahahhaha
Noah Miller *NOPE*
@George Lappat again, black pete doesn't have enlarged lips, they used to have it but it has been gone years ago.
@George Lappat
Servant role - is a normal thing to be
Afro - completely normal hair
Black face paint- its black face paint, you put meaning into it, the act itself means nothing.
Grown ups see what they want to see, kids see what they are told to see. I was told, as a kid, Zwarte Piet was a helper of Sinterklaas which seemed logical cause the old frail guy couldn't have gone through all of the hassle alone. Still in the end it was all about the presents. But now, as a grown up, it is about tradition and nostalgia and I am not going to be told by some phony SJW that I'm a racist for liking the tradition of my childhood. No one got hurt, no one got disadvantaged; it was all fun and games. So if you perceive Zwarte Piet as a racist symbol and going to be loud about it, just know you live in a time where you are privileged to do so.
The idea that the blackface is supposed to look like a Spanish person is both absolute bs and absolutely hilarious.
Moor from Muslim Spain.
I am Belgian. Flemish. The Spanish Habsburg bishop Granvelle ruled the Southern Netherlands (aka Belgium) for a while, during the early 17th century. He was often seen, wearing full episcopal regalia, surrounded by his Moorish body guards, each carrying a small whip. The whip was called ‘fouet in French. That’s why Zwarte Piet is being called ‘Pierre Fouet’, in the French-speaking part of Belgium.
One of Bishop Granvelle’s ways of policing the Belgian population, was by taking hostages among the children of the Belgian elite. Bishop Granvelle wanted to prevent the Catholic elite from going Protestant. Households suspected of Protestant sympathies were listed in a large book. The Zwarte Pieten used candy and the whip, alternately, to make the children inform on their parents. When enough evidence of their defiance against the Catholic faith had been documented, the Zwarte Pieten were sent out to kidnap one or more of their children at night, to whisk them away to Spain.
The Zwarte Pieten were the Bishop’s Ninja force, so to speak. They came in through the chimneys, at night. Only the chimneys of rich people’s mansions had a large enough diameter for a man (and a child in a sack) to pass through. Once in Spain, the children were treated well, and given a high quality education by the Jesuit order. In the mean time, their parents did what the bishop wanted.
Dark-skinned people are difficult to identify at night. Japanese ninjas had to wear black masks, to have the same effect.
Catholic paramilitary organisations working for the Spanish crown had each been dedicated to a Catholic Patron Saint. For the armed militias, it was Saint Martin, the patron saint of the armed forces, and for the kidnappers of children it was St. Nicholas, the patron saint of children. Saint Nicholas was indeed a bishop. He wore the exact same bishop’s robes and mitre as did Bishop Granvelle. So it was as if the Zwarte Pieten of the St Nicholas kidnappers brigade had the emblem of their patron saint, in living form, with them, in the person of Bishop Granvelle.
Perhaps only very few children were abducted and spirited away to Spain in those days, but the public appearances of Bishop Granvelle in the presence of his St. Nicholas brigade of bodyguards made for an effective policy of intimidation.
Personally, I always looked up to de Pieten as a kid. I never even considered that they’re work was forced or that they had a different colour skin. Later in life I was told it was because they went down the chimney and got covered in soot. That explanation was fine for me. When I heard about it being racist I was taken aback. While I do understand where the issues come from, I think that it’s important to consider that even if the kids associate the Zwarte Pieten as black, it doesn’t mean they necessarily find them of a lower status than Sinterklaas himself. Many kids have become extremely happy due to Zwarte Piet and I think it’s silly to remove that based purely on “but it’s a black person helping a white”
Being an ignorant american with only a vague awareness of the Zwarte Piet tradition, I was always under the apparently mistaken impression that He was supposed to be some kind of mythological being like an elf partially because here in the states we have an established mythology about Santa Claus having elven helpers and when I think of scandinavian folklore I think about stuff like trolls so in my imagination came up with the idea that Zwarte Piet wasn't even meant to be a human, also he sort of looks like a drow.
I was totally unaware about the tradition of Zwarte Piet until a few years ago. I'm from Lower Saxony, the german state thats neighbouring the Netherlands. We celebrate Nikolaus on the 6th december basically by putting sweets in children's shoes. Our version of Nikolaus' servant is Knecht Ruprecht. He beats children who behaved badly, he is a black man in the sense that he wears dark clothes, has black hair and a black beard and his skin is dirty but he is not of african descent. This kind of black man (Schwarzer Mann) is common throughout Germany to scare children and I thought he was really scary when I was a small child. There is a also tag game called 'Wer hat Angst vorm Schwarzen Mann?' (Who fears the black man?) I guess somewhere in the last few centuries this black man became a man with black skin color in the Netherlands.
I think it's safe to say that there is some sort of clash of cultures. America has a different history of blackfacing. The stuff that happened there was really disgusting and I'm happy it no longer exists. And while Dutch people who grew up with the Sinterklaas tradion think it's fine and fun Americans with that knowledge or people who mostly know about what happened in America comment on Zwarte Piet. And they have a point when it comes to racial stereotypes that are conveyed. You just need to look at the literally black skin, bright red lips of the typical Zwarte Piet. I wouln'd call Zwarte Piet the worst thing that has ever happened but it is at least distasteful.
People who fear that their hole cultural identity will break down without Zwarte Piet are wrong. There can be a Sinterklaas/Santa Claus/Nikolaus tradion without blackfacing, over here in Germany we have one.
Blackfacing happened in Europe as well and what happened in our colonies and the whole slave trade is far worse. It's just easier to deny it because it is longer ago and there aren't as many descendants of slaves here to remind us.
Rutger slave trade is normal and nothing weird it did happen nearly everywhere so i don't see the problem. A long time ago you had white, black, yellow and red shins, slaves. So why do you think black people are so special.
Yes, it's about awareness. There are more people aware and active about slavery and racism in America. It just started recently to arrive in Europe.
Rutger slavery was normal in almost the entire world do some research its not that only black people have been slaves. You are totally missing the point, where did i tell you that slavery was a good thing. This is the problem you are probably very dumb and very narrow minded.
Also every person in this world has a relative that was a slave at some point. The vikings where known for taking captives and sell them. So boehoe wickie de the viking is racist, right. Every nation on earth can play this racist card if they want to.
Heel interessant. I was in the Netherlands for three years and nobody analysed the topic so excellelently as you did. I wish there was more place for thought rather than emotion in our age
It's really crazy how people from abroad want other countries to change their national tradition. That's just ridiculous.
That's just America and their glass-thin ego
Westerners do that to China constantly
Theres plenty of Dutch people that find the black pete racist and offensive. The men wear blackface, afro wigs, and red lipstick. I know its for a children's festival but we have to move forward.
Theres a lot of people from Suriname and the Dutch Antilles (former colonies) that started this complaint in the 1970's but nothing was done. Many people around the world happen to agree with them. Even white people in the Netherlands tend to agree. Its the older generation that needs to let go of old yet unacceptable traditions. Its called progress.
@@smjtg2898 But there's a historical context of "zwarte pete" that should be outlined, the netherlands colonized and enslaved african people and the first illustrated depiction of him was in a book in 1850 by a dutch teacher as a servant, around the same time blackface started in the US. If you've never met a person who was offended by this, perhaps you haven't met black people?
It's important to also understand and assess how the people who are being caricatured perceive this.
I am Belgian an we have 2 “kinds” of sinterklaas: sint-Nicholas and Sint-Maarten , are you familiar with this ps which me luck with my exams
Robbe Degroote we also have this
iamnotreal313 whats actually the difference?
Natuurlijk! Sint-Maarten on 11 November, going to door to door singing to get candy.
That's Sint-Maarten in the northern Netherlands.
They're different saints and holidays though
Sint-Maarten is based on a Roman Soldier/Officer who showed generosity.
sint maarten is also a seperate holiday here in the Netherlands
Je video’s zijn leuk, informatief en interessant. Zit vaak te twijfelen of je Nederlands of Engels bent :)
Jesus, this is getting out of hand
This is a goddamn tradition that has been going on for a long time and they're complaining about it
These people go after pretty much everything and everyone if you think about it :/
~5:25 All of the Moors were African, black or not. They came from Morocco, i.e., Africa. There were also Arabs among them, but the Moors themselves were a Berber tribe. Sorry to be pedantic haha, but I find it important to dispel the misconception that all Africans are black whenever it pops up. I'd also like to provide some further information on the topic of Black people being called moors. It's probably not because of some Moors being black, but because of them being African. Moors were some of the earliest Africans europeans had heavy contact with, so their name became synonymous with Africans as a whole. Because of that, black people moving into Europe from Africa were often called Moors, even though few had any connection to the tribe. It's similar to how "Moor" was a common term used to refer to Muslims in general throughout much of history, as was "Saracen" after the crusades.
On the subject of Zwarte Piet being racist... I'd say there's definitly some level of racism involved in the blackface-esque tradition. I don't think the character himself is racist, but the way he's portrayed through dressing up as a caricature of black people... Whether or not children perceive it as such, it is a racial caricature.
Succinctly surmised , you have read my mind and articulated exactly how I see this matter. Blackface , big red lips and curly hair wig caricature doesn't help at all in anyway. Just because it's a tradition doesn't make it right in the here and now.
Yes! Thank you! Its tradition.... we even still celebrate him in Indonesia
@Flying Spaghetti Monster Cry then ;)
That's great!
In Germany we have the "Schwarzer Peter", which derived from a thief named Johann Peter Petri who created the card game with the same name. We also have a sort of catch game that we call "Schwarzer Peter".
Lustiger weise hab ich mir als Kind beim schwarzen Peter spielen immer den Sensenmann vorgestellt.
Hab nie an dunkelhäutige sondern an eine gestalt in schwarzem Gewand gedacht.
@@julchensweet2538 Habe mir immer gedacht der Schwarze Peter wäre eines dieser Schornsteinfeger lol
Idem in nl
dit is echt de beste verklaring die ik heb gehoord, zelf geloof ik ook hierin maar ik heb het echt nog nooit van zo ver terug gedacht.
Before addressing whether or not the tradition of Schwart Piet is racist, I'll note that the song you quote (at 10:38), "Even if I am black as soot, I mean well" is transparently racist for it presupposes that people of black skin typically do not mean well, and are not to be trusted. Otherwise, the mention of the black skin would be irrelevant as to whether or not Schwart Piet is to be trusted.
Tom Curtis no it’s not that is talking about the fact that it was alien to them i mean what would you do if you saw a black man (which you have never seen one in your life nor have you ever learned about) standing there staring down at you
So? That doesn't apply to this situation.
Thanks for actually doing research on this, I completely agree with you!
Honestly why is this different than minstrel shows? Can anyone explain to me the qualitative difference between this tradition dating from the days of Dutch Caribbean Slavery to minstrel shows in the United States?
H Rifai the blackface is more like a disguise for people who play the "petes" can troll their friends/relatives during the holiday. Black colour is a very effecfive disguise let me tell you.
Frank Dijk ok so thats not an explanation its racist in that its clearly a caricature of a black man who scares little Dutch kids and acts as St.Nicholas' servant, the point isn't slavery the point is that it's this derogatory and offensive. Which yea it is. I mean look at the guy.
metacomfortable thing is, the kids don't see them as scary, but as the givers of gifts and candy.
But black kids in the Netherlands get bullied for this thing and lots of black people feel its offensive, it's history was directly tied to racism and slavery and he was originally written as the character children should be scared of...
No difference. It is a minstrel show
It is my knowledge that Zwarte Piet (more specifically his skin) is a remnant from Germanic folklore. There the Zwarte Piet figure within the Saint Nicholas tale is actually the demon Krampus who is covered in black fur and tamed by the Saint. And let me tell you this; we sure made our version of Saint Nicholas' sidekick more likeable, savvy, respectable and diligent.
So yeah, definitely not racist. The naysayers are just quick to judge. Those who yell the loudest are ignorant about the true origin and development of the festivities.
I actually was told by a friend that Zwarte Piete was actually covered in soot, and I was a bit skeptical because if that were the case then his clothing would more than likely be soot-covered as well. I actually find this historical explaination far more interesting and it makes so much more sense! :-)
Ayako, the soot changed his hair to curly too… we are not helpers to you stinking black colonials…
I do agree with you Hilbert, I guess the biggest issue is just that for black people it brings back traumatic memories. But I don't think that they should do away with the tradition, all they need to do is be aware of what it might symbolize to black people.
I would say that Zwarte Piet concept by itself is not racist, and perhaps black-face itself is not inherently racist. However they are racial. However, it is a very fine line between good natured humor and offensive caricature. I think in the past they have crossed that line. It can be very hard to redeem something once it gets racist or offensive connotations even if it did not originally have them and does not have them now. It is very easy to slip back to being racist because it has been used that way before.
Offensive caricatures are not unethical no matter what group they're applied to.
I'm Dutch and I have held the opinion that if some people are bothered by it, and I'm not bothered by the solution, there is no clear reason why we should keep it that way.
I recently added on that with starting to actually be bothered when I see the completely black pete because of a documentary I saw where people in black pete costume walked through London. This connection between jim croe and black pete wasn't one I had made before and someone calling it a "collonial hangover" (which is a brilliant description btw) triggered it.
You pleasantly surprised me with this video though! Well done!
I will have to give it some more thought
Interesting name for a Dutchman.
@@spraakkanon Matt, kort voor Matthis ;)
@@MattFyrm not a Dutch name. You are an expat aren't you?
@@spraakkanon letterlijk, wat? Je realiseert je dat er mensen zijn in Nederland met onconventionele namen toch? Matthis is inderdaad niet de gebruikelijke Nederlandse spelling van die naam maar het is bepaald niet de Engelse. Da's overigens ook de reden dat ik Matt gebruik op internationale platforms: omdat ze het verkeerd zouden uitspreken.
The raven connection seems a bit far-fetched ...but even if it's true, there is no way that the soot-bit, would have anything to do with it.
Holy shit that Dutch I could almost tell what was being said
Just found you from shadiversity, you're pretty cool.+1sub
I live in a port town on the east coast of England, and we had black peter come over on a boat. He was on a carriage with Santa.
Hilbert, I think you'd be interested in watching the documentary of Wild Geraas.
Such traditions should not be abolished.
They should be modernized, improved and made the best they can.
But not got rid of. Not gone.
It's these things that we remember when we're older. We look back to.
We should make sure no body feels offended by the actions made.
But why should we get rid of the only positively viewed black figure in the western world?
Name one black character who hands out pepernoten and sweets and chocolade letters and gifts to children, bringing families together in the evening to celebrate. Name one black character who comes in late november on a big boat from spain filled with presents to then fill a country with joy as cities organize parades and events where zwarte piet collects drawings and letters and wish lists and sings to and with the children on the streets, a tradition unique to that place and time. Name one black character who comes to schools and plays with the kids and brings joy to them. Singing and dancing and performing together.
That's such an insane fallacy. I can't name any person who brings presents from Spain apart from Sinterklaas himself either, too bad that nothing to do with it.
Ever put a picture of zwarte piet next to Nazi propaganda of black people?
It definitely is a racist stereotypical image, whatever story you attribute to it.
@@deckie_ I don't agree.
Traditions change.
Thanksgiving had nothing to do with thankfulness until recently.
It too was based on the genocide of a different people.
That has now also become a tradition of family gatherings.
I don't think it's fair to criticize something if one doesn't even know what it's really about. Family.
You are correct in saying that the original celebration was racist. It is now improving. Really.
If we were to get rid of all holidays that were once racist or are based on a system that was once discriminating,
nothing would be left of the holidays celebrated throughout the world.
Why are there no complaints about these holidays? They don't feature a black character. That's racist. Seeing anything featuring a black person, a jew an Asian dude as racist is racist.
@@tirobo I'm not saying the original celebration was racist at all, I'm saying the current depiction is a massively racist stereotype and people aren't wrong for being offended by it.
Yes, the claim that racial diversity is racist, is pretty racist in and of itself (man I'm starting to hate using this word now), but we're not saying any depiction of a black person is racist, we're saying that the depiction of an insanely racist stereotype, a racist stereotype that has been used in propaganda that calls for genocide, is racist.
Regardless of whether the origin of the stereotype is xenophobic or not. Things can start out racist, and become neutral later on, the same way a thing can start out neutral, and become racist.
A natural lack of racial diversity is not racist, unless it is specifically to exclude a certain racial group (at which point it becomes unnatural really).
" the only positively viewed black figure in the western world" seriously, this is your argument? For starters, OPs entire argument centers on the fact that black pete is fictional, and therefore cannot refer to actual black people. Then you come along and merrily state this. What do you mean? Should black people be more entertaining and carry sweets around? Do we need more fictional black characters. Can you really not think of any other black coloured role models that we can see as positively? I hate to bring it you, but this is racism to its core. I hate to see people (my fellow countrymen) reduced to a stererotype, which is exactly what you are doing here.
@@richardengels2307 >>>NOOOOOO WHY YOU ARE BEING SO STUPID?!! You don't understand!!
i love this topic hilbert. very brave to come out with real talk, real opinions. cancel culture gets offended and comes for you. but not if you own what you say. i admire your conviction my good man. i hear lots of sly digs about history in your videos and i just cannot agree more with you haha. what a channel, what top man.
Racist....
The reality is that we are now living in a diverse Netherlands and in a world where racial tensions are high. Zwarte Piet, regardless of how you'd like to explain its history, is a caricature of black people that represents them in a way that Dutch history chose to portray them. Black people in the Netherlands (to be fair, not ALL black people, but that does not matter) do not appreciate the negative image. It's their right and theirs alone to say how they would like to be represented nationally and how they feel about that representation. If the Dutch people want to uphold their international reputation of "tolerance", they'd best listen up to their own diverse population.
They can't tell the difference between American minstrel shows and history, history that shows two people of differing races working together when it was likely taboo.
Before being triggered remember that Hilbert is a white dutch living in England.
Is he Dutch?? Honestly wouldn't have guessed that from his accent.
@@restrictedarea9360 that's why he pronounces everything correct
@Nils10Ip yeah, sure, but there are some minor things that make his dutch pronunciation a bit off. This is noticeable in the first dutch word he uses in this video, "sinterklaas". He exaggerates the r, which shouldn't have been rhotic in the first place. The intonation also sounds off, native speakers would put the stress of the word on " klaas ", he doesn't stress any of the syllables. His pronunciation is good, but not on the same level as a native.
His English pronunciation on the other hand is perfect. He also pronounces spanish, french and german really well, so my guess is that he's English and multilingual or just spends a lot of research in pronouncing foreign words for his videos.
He might be from the netherlands. Dutch are extreme good in english
Is he white?
Oranje refers to the netherlands, not an actual orange, so the correct translatiom is apples from
The netherlands/dutch
Ik ben het behoorlijk met je eens, maar ik vind dat in deze discussie beide kanten vaak behoorlijk over de schreef staan, ik stel voor een stapsgewijze transitie naar een roetveegachtige piet te maken (die was er sowieso veel in de jaren 60, google de foto's maar) en misschien een paar van de liedjes die van twijfelachtig alooi zijn niet meer op de tv te gebruiken. Dit idee word door beide kanten vaak als te gematigd gezien, hetgeen mij doet denken dat ik niet al te ver naast optimaal zit.
I find it very interesting and would like to see this in person one day.
Well, what makes me question these kind of things is the fact that on one hand, you must be very careful about what you say about others as a white man, but then you can drive your car and listen to radio while some rap is being played where some black musician is singing about: "hey nigga, yo nigga, go with the flow nigga". That's a syntax error really, as it was suppose to be such a bad word that no one could ever use it during any circumstances ( at least that was my conclusion).
The reason for why I personally wouldn't use words in a manner which psychologists refer to as "invasive behaviour" is because I like people in general and just want to be friends with most people I meet. It doesn't matter who they are or where they are from. I strongly believe in respect for other people, as I think it reflects my self-respect also. If I don't treat people around me with the decency and respect which everyone deserves, then what does that say about me?
With these things being said, how am I then being a racist, a sexist or anything else that overly-politically correct people wants to label me as?
All in all I think that political correctness is a good thing as the ideas of it are noble, but it has also gone too far if we live in a society where we can't joke anymore. After all, most people are nice fellows that doesn't wish anyone else anyone bad, and some people can act racist on the surface when you first meet them. (I've had my fair share of that behaviour too) but then, as you get to know them you realize that they are most likely being mad or somehow frustrated about something, or just having a bad life, and this is why they get mad and use this kind of language as they deliberately feel like they're falling down so they want to drag everyone with them as they do.
My conclusion is therefor that okay, let's not deliberately try to provoke other people or talk shit about them. But at the same time we have to understand that everyone's different and therefor everyone also have a reason for who they are, what they're like and so on. If we all endulged this kind of thinking, I'm rather confident in my feeling that it would make the world a better place both for me and for you who are reading.
That's all from me people, have a good day.
*Screams in Spanish*
What your analysis missed is how the first reference to Piet being black dates from the 1850's, close to abolition. We have images and textual references to Sinterklaas and his helper(s) dating back at least to the 17th century, but none of these depict or describe him as black. The first instance of that is from Amsterdam, and describes the Sinterklaas festivities at a Portuguese (iirc) diplomat's house in the 1820's, whose servant (who was black and may or may not have been a slave) dressed up as Piet.
The Odin's ravens idea is sheer pseudo-history, purported by a journalist who is most definitely not a historian and has yet to demonstrate any rigor in any of his research. It would require the practice to have survived from the 8th or 9th century into the 19th century, without anybody ever referring to blackness in the meantime. I find that unlikely.
More important than whether Zwarte Piet was or wasn't racist at its conception is whether it causes harm today. I cannot see into the minds of the protesters, but given that they go through the trouble of actually protesting I have to assume it causes harm. That harm is avoidable at little expense: the tradition is not irreparably damaged by changing the blackface aspect of it.
www.meertens.knaw.nl/cms/nl/nieuwsbriefteksten/nieuwsbriefuitgelicht/143677-de-oudst-bekende-naam-van-zwarte-piet-pieter-me-knecht-1850 I presume you read Dutch, given the boorish way you demanded a source. I was wrong about the Portuguese diplomat part, he was an Italian trader. Regardless, neither activist nor American, Meertens instituut has no agenda other than scientific, referencing a historical document available at the national archives. Feel free to hop over.
Blah b Never claimed that it is impossible that there may have been earlier instances of Piet represented as black. It is our first written source representing him as such, and while we do have both written sources and paintings of Sinterklaas and Piet, none of those depict him as black. Yes, the tradition of Sinterklaas having a helper goes back easily two centuries, but that is not what was at stake here, his blackness was. And in the absence of earlier sources describing or depicting him as black, no one has a reasonable claim that he always was black, especially since we have so many references not mentioning the fact, and having a black face is something that would have stood out back then.
In Flanders, (the better part of Belguim), we have Sinterklaas. And also here, our government, instead of dealing with SERIOUR problems, they derictly jumped on the Zwarte Piet case
I agree with this video, but I once had a very interesting experience. I saw a man of color cycling by (as we do in the Netherlands), and a small white child said to her mother: 'Hé dat was zwarte piet!' (hey, that was black pete). The mother then had to explain to her that not every black person is a black pete. Just an interesting experience I wanted to share with you people.
And there in lies the problem with this whole Black Pete thing.
@@transqueen3551 The kid saying that doesn't mean the kid has a bad association with it though as kids love getting candy and presents from them. Other than that they are just kids. It's all about educating them.
It just breaks my hart to see all those children cry because of the people that protested that day😞
what about children crying because black pete is racist.
@@modedealer8155 No children cry about racism.
@@fishcereal9940 black children that get called "black pete" do
@@modedealer8155 Can you give me a source for this?
@@fishcereal9940 source for what?
When I grew up with Zwarte Piet, afaik, I did not learn to hate or think less of black people. As mentioned, in the past (aka my youth) Piet has often been depicted in a less flattering way and used for comic relief. So, if a black person says the image of Piet made him uncomfortable, I can believe that immediately.
I believe it's the recent (19th century) origins of Piet we need to worry about, especially the imagery. We got what people then thought a black servant of a white bishop would look like. Probably with no particular malice intended. However, can anyone imagine introducing the same imagery today?
So the real question is: if something was innocent before, but it no longer is, do we keep using it, or do we change it?
The kids won't care. Just tell them the "Eco Piet" hands out 15% more candy (it's the € he saves on make-up) and black ones will be booed off stage.
Little sidenote: He was a priest in Byzantic Anatolia. It was not Turkey yet. Good video though.
4:59 I think a better translation of "appeltjes van oranje" would be "orange apples" or just "oranges", because that's what it means.
I agree the news outlets need to research before the publish
One point of view that you have missed here kind of ties in with the pagan connection and may be another way to explain the origin (not saying its the right one, just another theory).
The Netherlands are not the only Germanic country to celebrate St Nicholas around 5th of December time. It is a very common theme that in Germanic countries there is the celebration of St Nicholas around that time and that St Nicholas travels around with black figures.
In Germany and the Alpine regions this is celebrated too, except here the black figure isn't human but rather a demon like creature known as Krampus.
The difference here is that Krampus is not a good creature, but rather a demonic being. He scares the children and another aspect of him that relates to Zwarte Piet (at least the old zwarte Piet) is that he carries a roede (rod made of twigs and branches to smack people with), and carries a basket on his back to carry naughty children in. These creatures share too many features to be coincidental. My grandmother used to have a different perception of zwarte Piet than the one I grew up with. She used to believe that zwarte Piet was more of a punisher than he is today. He was the threat used for naughty children. In relation to Krampus, I heard an interesting theory that Krampus as a demon harkens back to the conversion to Christianity in the Germanic regions who would celebrate Yule at this time, and honoured their gods. That Nicholas (who wouldn't long have died at the time of conversion) as saint of children represented the purity of Christianity, and that the Krampus symbolized the demonic old gods. The Krampus is chained by St Nicholas and this would represent the power of Christianity over the demonic pagan gods as a form of propaganda. Over time when the Netherlands learned more about the Moorish rulers, they may have changed the image of Krampus to that of modern zwarte Piet and that recently he stopped being someone who could be the punisher to the childrens friend.
But hey, thats just an alternative theory
It's not about historical context. It's about the fact our ethnic minorities are offended by the looks of pete. We should be adult enough to respect this and change piet in some way.
Het gaat niet om historische context. Als er een minderheid wordt gekwetst door het uiterlijk van piet moeten we volwassen genoeg zijn om roetveegpiet een ding te maken
The moors were very honourable people, I see this at them celebrating the moors, not mocking Africans, but that’s just my opinion.
There were Moors that fought a holy war against christendom and executed everyone that wasn't muslim, not all Moors were honourable by a long shot, there were also Moors that lived together with christians in spain without much trouble so there were honourable people among them too
I'm glad you did this. It's hard to find information on the subject of black Pete without it being all about the racism.
well it is
but it is tho
Tis a spicy username my good sir
@@papabroke7567shut up
@@splash2849you too
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein
What's truly offensive is people who don't understand the difference between racial and racist and dump any notion of conscientious morality in the process of being stupid.
It's not racist. The only thing there is are ignorant people who clearly don't understand how our continent and our traditions works.
It's obviously impossible to fully convince people, who don't see the world as we do, to accept that our traditions are hard to change and it will be completely idiotic to change or ban it just because some people (who clearly have to much free time) disagree with this or any other festivity(only,of course, if the tradition is harmless as this one is). I think it's because Slavery here, as opposed to the USA, it's seen with different eyes.
I think The tradition is only racist because they are acting like a stereotypical black person and thereby in forcing an offensive stereotype. If they would just act like they normally do and not use golden earrings and bright lipstick I think all would be fine. Or just not paint the faces and than it's not racist eother
BUH MAH TRAWDISHUNS
Pretty much all the protesters are asking for ...
Óscar Canales traditions aren’t difficult to change, they already changed, with ‘Roetveegpiet’ which is a white person with just some black stripes from the ashes.
Duuk M who ye the people dressing up are carrying glocks and start rapping throughout the show and all live in run down ghettos
I agree, immigrated people don't like it. I think they should respect this tradition, because they are not from the Netherlands and Belgium
Black Dutch people are not happy with it, but I guess they do not matter..... it's not like the Dutch were the main slave traders during the 17th century and Belgium killed over 10 millions of blacks or anything.
What does the Slave trade or Congo have to do with this debate? lol
Leopold the second killed 10 million blacks*
It was *"his"* personal land.
Also, we painted all his statues in red to let everyone see what for an awful person he was.
@André Luis Marin That may very well be the case. However, I don't see how this has anything to do with Zwarte piet. Yes, the Dutch were a very prominent if not the biggest slave traders in the transatlantic slave trade (I don't know about the Belgian thing you mentioned so I can't say anything about that), but that has, as Hilbert has demonstrated in the video, nothing to do with the Sinterklaas tradition. Unlike what the OP is suggesting, I do believe it is important we listen to all people with the Dutch nationality living in the Netherlands, no matter their origin. But I don't think we should change anything on the account of a minority. The Netherlands are still a democratic nation and should, therefore, respect the vote of the majority. Who let's be honest, find all this complaining rather tiresome.
André Luis Marín i agree but you just said our ancestors should of died in the "potato plight" on another comment because of one idiot. hypocritical, i guess they do not matter.....
If people think zwarte Piet is racist, then I you could say that Santa's elves are discrimination against small people or promoting child labor
LDBlokland both of those things can be true at the same time
of course its suggested to me again
its really sad people i know that, at first, had no real opnion on this, were suddenly against after zondag met lubach released his episode on them (which didnt really address anything in my opnion)
Zwarte Piet obviously has some racist origins. It's clearly a blackface character. Still, it's also clearly not racist anymore in 2017. It's a positive character, since it's usually less forgetful than Sinterklaas, athletic and friendly PLUS he's the one handing out the presents and candy. Besides: I personally (I'm Dutch) had never linked Zwarte Piet to people of African ancestry until now that I'm older and everyone's talking about it. His skin colour doesn't even really match that of black people.
I personally don't mind Zwarte Piet, but I can kind of see why others do. I think a good solution would be to at least remove the iconic earrings and red lipstick so it's really just a guy covered in soot (which is what most Dutch parents tell their children).
How often do you see black people with red lipstick and iconic earrings though? I've never seen one honestly. I have black family, they're just like us. I agree the origin of Zwarte Piet PROBABLY is racist, but that doens't mean it thus has to change. It already has. It's changed to a positive figure and there's something a lot of people here can learn from.
Red lipstick and big earrings are very old stereotypes of African tribal people. Look up "Sjors en Sjimmie" and you'll know what I mean.
That said I also think it doesn't have to change, but some people do. To make everyone happy I think we need to find some sort of midway in between what it is now and completely altering his looks. Removing the red lipstick and earrings won't change his appearance too drastically but should still remove some of the biggest leftovers from the racist origins he has.
But with that logic, again I am not so much against change but more to the reasoning which I find flawed: If I decide that I don't like people commenting under Hilbert's videos because for some far fetched reason I find it offensive as I've been downvoted at one point because someone disagreed or something, does that legitimise all of you guys no longer commenting since I got offended? No, it's silly reasoning and as long as I stand by this logic you guys wont comply. Zwarte Piet became a symbol of unnecessarily pulling the racist card and thus people grab it and try to protect it. I myself can see how changing a few of the characteristics like the red lips and earrings could satisfy the need to get rid of the stereotype, but again, I disagree with the reasoning.
At what point does it stop? You'll see if you research it for a bit that the guys at 00:05 are people who generally don't have a job, protest for a living (so to speak) and always complain, if we give in with this Zwarte Piet business then there's no telling what traditions will survive. Their logic is flawed and if facts don't matter anymore then nothing is safe. That's dangerous territory and that's why a lot of people defend Zwarte Piet.
I agree, but I still think this discussion has to stop somehow and we both know people who, like you said, protest for a living, aren't going to stop.
It has racist origins but it's not racist anymore. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Don't forget santa was an eater of children, so the whole culture needs to be sent to hell.
Die link met Odin is wel heel cool.
1:21 Is dat Zaltbommel? Het lijkt wel op de stadhuis
In Germany "Schwarzer Peter" is just a bad figure in a card game. When you draw him, it's game over.
We do have a helper figure for St. Nicholas as well but he's named "Knecht Ruprecht" (Servant Ruprecht) who is usually depicted as a chimney sweeper and punishes the children who have not behaved in the past year. Usually he would slap them with a stick in old timey stories.
I missed that link too.
@Paval1s They both originate in legends from the alps. But Knecht Ruprecht is mostly known in northern Germany. They both take the same role in Nikolaus-Traditions but Knecht Ruprecht is normally shown in a more human-like form (similar to Zwarte Piet), while Krampus is depicted as Demon.
I'm indonesian/dutch, growing up in North Sulawesi every Christmas we had Sinterklaas and Zwartepiet and it's never had a negative conotation to it at all. Now living in the states, its no different than Santa's elves.
santas elves arent even brown in america. they are white. and we dont have people dressed up in painted black face with wigs and red lipsticks and earrings walking around.
@@hersheykissez4234 That’s your culture and tradition, this is ours. There was never one negative connotation to him and zwarte piet is a guy who is loved by all the children. How can that be conceived as racist in any way, shape or form? This was a part of pretty much every Dutch person’s childhood and now because a load of Americans don’t like it we now have to stop? Ridiculous
@@obamabin-laden2420 Thats a good Ass reason
I lived in the Nederlands for 10 Years! And I Never Bears Anyone saying that this is wrong I has Black friends who cosplayed as Zwarte Piet
I mean If they would do a black superman in tv that would be racist for white people Thats the Logic of the People who disagree with the piets
@@obamabin-laden2420 just cause you grew up living ur childhood with a racist figure to celebrate, doesnt make it any less racist. It just means you were told an institutionally fabricated lie, and participated in a racist tradition unknowingly (cause you didnt understand the history behind it). Now you feel attacked that your tradition is being exposed and you do what you can to deny the truth behind it. Btw, i also grew up in the Netherlands. This has nothing to do with Americans projecting their views, this is about racial discrimination so ingrained in Dutch society that its being ignored by the masses. Your Indo/Dutch background obviously doesnt mean anything neither, lets not even start with what the Dutch have done in Indonesia...
You killed the opposition, great job!
Hmm?.. *Scratches head*
Zieke psv
It's not a war.. it's not an us against them situation you fucking degenerate
@@iThiink It was meant figuratively, and them vs us, is now more and more in the news. It's yes or no. Maybe is no more, the world is polorising!!
Oh really ? Is that why zwarte piet is being phased out in major Dutch cities and also their products removed from online sites like Amazon?
I agree, there's also a story that it was originally (around 1850) a demon, which indeed scared kids to make them behave. But anyways I am glad that this tradition has evolved into the way it is now, but there's a ton of protests going on now which is pissing me the heck off.
From Shadiversity, keep the content up!
Its only racism if it is meant to be racist and this isn't, he is a beloved christmas character.
It may not be intended to be racist but it is still insensitive.
@@green82929 so fictional christmas characters should only be white?
@@_Agent_Orange_99 No, that is not at all what I’m saying. What I’m saying is theres no reason to do blackface to look like a fictional christmas character. In no context is it right to dress up as another race… tradition, or not. Re-read what I said before carefully so you can understand it better.
@@green82929 they aren't making fun of black people, they are dressing up as a particular character who happens to be black. I don't really see how it is wrong especially when i have seen black people dress up as white christmas characters before, black santa and black jesus for example, is that insensitive too or is it a double standard?
@@_Agent_Orange_99 No its not insensitive because they arent changing their race. And its wrong because it’s literally blackface..
Krampus is black pete's fursona, change my mind
I don't disagree with any of your facts, but I would like to add another origin that seems kind of obvious, though as far as I know unsubstantiated: Black elves.
In pre-Christian mythology, black elves were these kind of demi-human/spiritual creatures which were apparently known for their craftsmanship.
Which is why, in some cultures, Santa's helpers are considered elves (though usually the normal, light-skinned elves).
it seems fairly regular to me that the tradition would simply differ in Frisia compared to, for example, England. And then at some point the black elf figure would be associated with the Moors.
Of course, in Scandinavia, which was Christianized later, Santa's helpers are related to ancestor worship, apparently.
I would argue that the original Norse myth of black elves would've been based on or reaffirmed in light of stories of brown and black people (presumably spread from Rome or through Russian trade routes). Or the pagans would've simply heard of black people and not related it to the myth.
Meaning, whether or not Piet is a slave - and racialized slavery is not unheard of in the Ancient world - I think he probably is based on real people's skin colours.
I don't think blackface in this context means what it means in other, especially American, contexts, so I think it's a bit silly to protest it. I also think it's silly to debate it. I understand if people are offended by the exoticism of people of colour (including Moors), and there's plenty of systemic racism in the Netherlands, I'm sure, but this tradition isn't part of that.
It wouldn't kill the Dutch to make the guy look Moorish instead of sub-Saharan African, though.
Thank you for this video, I think alot of people think its racist cause they think Pieten have slavery background, which this video explains is not the case.