A foreign fella SP Guns kind of sold me on the .25 before his channel went to pew tube heaven. Any tuned air rifle is going to have a modified pressure disc to make maximum power with fewer shots
Good experiment and sound science. The only thing I’ll point out though is that the test was performed uniformly at 20 yards. I believe that would favor the .25 caliber. We can leave aside the physics jargon,.. You’ve made all variables equal, except of course the properties of the pellets themselves. You would expect the pellet with the smaller profile cross section to experience less drag through the medium. Now, how about when you start to widen the distance? I’ve seen anecdotal tests of a Hatsan Blitz hitting line boards, back and forth between a .25 and a .30 caliber. The 30 definitively carries more energy past the 75 yard threshold. Was your decision to set the targets at 20 yards just arbitrary? Because I believe beyond a certain distance threshold you’ll actually see the results of the experiment flip between the two calibers.
Dude! We need to chat soon on this topic for big bore Airguns. I just dropped that Doe last weekend with the .50 cal Texan short carbine at around 500 FPE. At 50 yards the slug bedded on the backside of the hide. It was perfectly broadside so I was like WTF! I expected to blow right through that Doe. At the same 500 FPE power level, I get .457 slugs penciling through deer almost every single time. So your test has a lot of application for big bore Airguns on larger game. With Deer they rarely just fold up and expire on the spot so having a full pass through on a double lung shot is preferable to create a fully open wound cavity for better blood trails not to mention a deer can survive on a single lung. Contrary to some of the comments on this post about a full energy dump being ideal. With deer, it is not. Keep up the Airgun geekery brother!
Although I respect your opinion, I do disagree. The more energy transferred, the more damage done. That IS physics. But I Absolutely see what you're saying about faster bleed out with the passthrough. Shot placement is of course critical, but if slightly off center, I'd prefer damage to passthrough. You could hit em in the ass with a passthrough and have them run off, but with full energy dump, it may have had a broken leg or spine and not able to run off. But the military has done more research on this subject than Anyone on the planet. Might want to read some of their thoughts on the subject. (Spoiler, they believe in energy transfer).
@@scottmichael3745 Well first off you’re totally wrong in the fact the deer isn’t expiring from bleeding out of your shot selection was correct. Your shutting down the respiratory system not the circulatory system with a double lung shot. What I’m saying is you get a better blood trail for tracking and NOT that the animal is expiring from loss of blood. Dispatching from blood loss can actually take a long time. I’ve tracked Deer for hundreds of yards with blood everywhere to have it all of a sudden just stop. Often from the single hole becoming clogged most likely from tissue. It happens and every seasoned hunter has experienced it. The amount of energy we get with big bore Airguns is in the realm of handgun firearm cartridges not high energy projectiles like you mention the military doing studies on which I’m assuming you’re referencing studies done on 5.56 and 7.62 ammo. Those projectiles are producing energy in the magnitude of thousands of foot pounds of energy, not hundreds like we see with Airguns. I’ve dispatched quite a few deer with big bore Airguns and will tell you it’s much more like archery, not firearms. Go watch handgun shootout footage on CZcams with handguns. People aren’t getting blown off their feet when getting hit with 9mm or 45 ACP rounds. Sometimes if they are hopped up enough on adrenaline (or drugs), they just keep coming. Shot placement is crucial but dumping 500 FPE into a 200 pound animal doesn’t do as much as you think it would. Go watch some of my videos where I dump 600 FPE hollow points into the chest of a large Doe and they just look around like what just but me. It’s different man. Trust me
I've been waiting for you and Baker Airguns to make a return. Your content is always valuable to me, AND thoroughly well researched, documented and presented. Thank you. Subscribed, finally.
Penetration is the foremost function of a projectile. When dealing with low energy airguns (compared to high energy firearms), penetration is often questionable. If it doesn't go in, or go in far enough, energy transfer is a moot point. Even the biggest, baddest airguns made are barely firearm handgun powerful. How do handguns kill? They poke holes so you bleed, even with modern hollowpoints. Airguns are no different, and less powerful. -Donnie
@@BakerAirguns Penetration is not the foremost function. It's dumping all the energy into the animal and not just punching hole through. If you have, and can dump all the ft/lbs of energy into animal and not through it, you're ahead of the game. That's knock down power, that's lights out power. I have an .25 Edgun, two .30's and two 357's pellet/slug PCP's. Trust me, .25's don't hit and kill nearly as fast as the larger calibers. Thirty cals blow squirrels clean out of the tree. Thirty's kill groundhogs, .25's are sketchy without a perfect hit.
@@timtullio1210 Yeah man I just GOTTA agree with you. Really liked the video, but I believe his "physics" are incorrect. Energy dump is EVERYTHING! I killed LOTS of birds as a kid with a pump 177 and very rarely did it ever make a hole. Hollow points are designed Specifically to increase energy transfer. And if the projectile exits the target, well that's waisted energy...
@@timtullio1210 you've made a very good point but with respect, I feel like the point of this video was not about the question of; Is penetration more important than energy dump? I felt it was very much about introducing to less experienced air gun shooters, the basic first principals of ballistics as they pertain to Air Guns (especially PCP's). As a Break Barrel gunner, it helped me visualise a couple of really important scenarios: 1. The crossover of efficacy of the two bore sizes' projectile at the same FPE at the muzzle for both penetration and terminal energy. EG - If I have less penetration, my effective range is reduced, which could affect target selection (size, type and POA/POI). Or, what's my DOPE going to be? How would that affect my working range, firing positions or both? Donnie's theory and explanations of the variables would help almost any lay person to answer those questions themselves - whether that be to choose a new platform or, make adjustments in the field quickly with whichever platform they're using. Which is fantastic. 2. If I was considering a new platform, do I need .30 cal, or would .25 Cal suit my needs better? And from that perspective, I felt Donnie's testing methodology and explanations spoke to both of those scenarios really well as a layperson to PCP world. The other great outcome of Donnie explaining things the way he has, is that less experienced PCP gunners can apply all of this to their own decision making in the field. The more folks that have a good understanding of Ballistics as a subject, the less likely it is they'll make unfortunate choices, and the higher the likelihood of humane kills. That's what I took from the video anyway. If that was Donnie's intention for this video, do you feel he nailed it? What are your thoughts from that point of view? Cheers
EXACTLY! The difference in depth is NOT significant! If the 25 kills a hog, Im betting the 30 would do it better due to a bigger hole and a heavier pellet. He nerded his way into nonsense.
Basically because of the size difference, there is more grab area upon arrival of the projectile, thus quickly arresting it's penetration distance, so that is easily understood. But I think that the .30 cal would inflict more cavitational damage upon entry, thus possibly inflicting more damage. Good vid 👍👍
Great video, Donny! So many variables are involved in determining "deadliness" that this subject will never be settled. It's the same as the firearm discussion about "knock-down" power. In the end, for me, a more important question is "What is the minimum" for a quarry?
Rather than the "minimum" and assuming the shot will be perfect, wouldn't it be better to use what has the surest effect? If your "minimum" device is slightly off target, there will be pointless suffering. You might be a sportsman,shooting for your entertainment, but you're no hunter.
I’d love to see the results at 40+ yards and see if the results are different. It seems the drag coefficient could be a greater factor at that distance
Thts wht i was thinking about also,how would greater distances effect the performance,also the .25 has less surface so less drag to impede velocity, there's also the design n weight of the pellet
Thanks for another great video Donnie. my humble opinion here is that when comparing two different calibers one should take in consideration weight and speed and all those factors contributing to get the max performance and devastation out of each caliber. in that case a bigger caliber with a proper expansion is a winner, for hunting purposes every day of the week 👍🔫🇸🇪
I have to tell you, i am new to the Air rifle world but I have to say, watched the whole thing. You sir, are a very charismatic individual. thank you for video and making my choice harder when buying my first air rifle.
Lot's can be said about this topic and how one wishes to use this information, but as a general rule when dispatching an animal you typically want to transfer the complete amount energy of the projectile to the target. Even more important than that, is first hitting the target in the best location for the cleanest kill. This will ensure the most successful result. If a projectile passes through the target precious energy has been wasted. Too many variables to talk about depending on many issues but that is a good start. Enjoyed seeing your results and after testing similar things with handguns I was not surprised with your results. A .22 rimfire will travel through more 2X4's than .a .357Mag, a 45ACP, and a 44Mag but I would have a different choice than a .22 rimfire for a personal protection weapon, if available. Good stuff to ponder.
I forget who said it but it is a universal truth: a .177 to the head is way more likely to kill than a .457 to the foot. It's all about shot placement. Good post. Take it easy.
Who shoots 2 calibers at the same energy though? 25 cal is capable of 100ft lb and the 30 cal much more. 60gr 30 cal at 950fps vs 50gr 25 cal at 950fps the 30 cal is going to perform better right? Slugs are designed to expand and stop with the exception of bull nose or solid nose slugs so very cool break down of what you've shown but I can't see anyone going up to a 35 cal to shoot it at 600fps to go hunting. FPE comparison is great for what you're showing though nice work for giving the up side and down side in both options.
No need for the gel tests at all, really. It's very simple: Higher FPE = more deadly. Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate the efforts here. But it isn't about penetration - it's about energy dump. And the .30 is heavier and dumps more energy on your target. Period.
@@BakerAirguns I skipped all the talking up front so I missed that part! SCIENCE! Generally, .30 is going to be hitting with more fpe than .25 so a bit of a misleading title, there, Mr.! Haha cheers and have a good weekend!
It's also about ballistics and drag: if your .30 sheds 50% of it's energy between the muzzle and the target but your .25 only loses 25% then you are getting more energy into your target with the .25.
@@davidpaylor5666 Great point! This is why for most my small game pesting, I choose .22 for the highest BCs so I can reach out real far if needed. Still wanna wallop some squirrels and chipmunks with .30. Maybe down the road I'll get a .30 kit for the Maverick and post some videos about it and get banned. 👍
You did an amazing job demonstrating the power and physics of it all. Something that i myself was curious about and wanted to know. With that said I’m buying a 25 cal now 😁🤙
Interesting video, you nailed it I think. I think the .30 caliber dumps more energy and does this quicker. The ballistic gel jumps up quite a bit in the 30 cal hit. Moreover the .30 caliber remains its energy longer. So try this at 50 m. I have the Hatsan .30 breakbarrel. The trajectory of the heavy pellets is curved, 50 m takes 2,5 milldots.
As someone who spent a year doing research and live testing on .177,.22,.25 cal airguns under 25fpe I would say most people commenting are basing this off what’s on paper or their personal experiences. I have literally took the time to try to create a “killing power” formula or medium for these power ranges and let’s just say when you talking about LOW POWER SMALL CALIBER (under 25fpe) and smaller than .25 cal there is no linear climb in energy delivery in actual game. Meaning I use lower velocity high penetration.177 for almost all small game and have found it fairs way better for consistency in killing power and speed verses my higher energy options. Like I said most will disagree but I spent a year focusing on this and I’m telling you for the SMALL CALIBERS it’s just better. For the calibers he’s speaking about I don’t have direct experience to comment but with well placed shots on proper game none of this really matters bc you can’t be any deader than dead.
Simple physics as Donny demonstrates... At same muzzle energy the thinner pellet will penetrate more distance due to less resistance.. But fatter pellet will make more wide damage
If you JUST take the frontal area of pellets. .177 = 15,9 mm2 .22 = 23,75 mm2 .25 = 31,65 mm2 .30 = 45,6 mm2 A 40 J .177 has. 40 :15,9 = 2,52 J/ mm2... To get 2,52 J / mm2 for the other cal. you need.. .22 : 2,52 x 23,75 = 59,85 J or 44 ftp .25 : 2,52 x 31,65 = 79,76 J or 59 ftp .30 : 2,52 x 45,6o = 114,9 J or 86 ttp
I’m not sold on penetration = lethality. The most lethal self defense ammo is made to NOT over penetrate. Not only for beyond target safety but because it transfers all the energy to the target. If a round goes through a target it’s obviously taking some of that energy with it.
A truly fair comparison wouldn't be based on equivalent FPE, but rather through matching VELOCITY. Eliminating the squared factor would allow for direct comparison of momentum/drag coefficient for a more accurate assessment of penetration at range between calibers
This it pretty much just common sense. Testing with same energy but smaller diameter …lol. obviously it will penetrate deeper because there is less surface area creating drag. The whole point of larger Airgun calibers is to allow more weight and more air volume able to push that weight to a similar velocity, which equals substantially more energy and in turn, more penetration AND energy dump at the same time.
Awesome video! I want to do the same thing, comparing the .25 and .30 cal AEA HP SS pistols into some homemade ballistic gel. The .25 is around 35fpe and the .30 (non-plus version) is about 40fpe.
But both would shine in different areas. In gel we see the .25 penetrates better. But shoot a gallon of water and see which has a bigger splash impact on the bottle. Shoot into a t-bone and see which shoots fragments of lead in the meat more. The gel shows very little
Good test mate 👍 but it makes me wonder even if the .30 doesn’t penetrate as far would it not cause more damage with the extra diameter with a bigger wound channel and be more concussive. Just a thought might be a good video to try out.
My Hatsan hercules bully in 25cal is an AWESOME pcp it lays down 80 f-lbs with a Diablo 25gr. @ 1200 fps. Thats with a slight tune, just turning a screw a bit. The 25cal Hatsan bully is no joke.
Few things.... The greater than sign faces the other way. Less than LEFT (both start with with S's. Gotta thank my 6th grade math teacher for that trick, thanks Mrs Cabrara) Penetration has little to do with "deadly" I'd rather get shot and have the bullet pencil thru than get hit with a hollow point slug with more fpe that explode my organs and kills me immediately. Wood has knots. Shooting through wood as a test is never going to give you repeatable results. Aside from that, I loved the video. I was actually suprised by the results. Regardless if I disagree with the "deadly" aspect
Your video makes me feel better about my .25 Hatsan Bully which has about the same FPE as you are showing. This shows me that the .25 is not a wimpy round and will give good penetration. The .30 cal Bully has 40 FPE more than the .25 so it would hit harder. Maybe try the same test with FPE on both at full power.
I would assume most people are shooting birds and squirrels and maybe raccoon size animals. And when you're getting a full pass through every time penetration doesn't matter anymore. It's the wound channel which the wound channel of the 25 would be bigger. So it would be more damage
Very good test with interesting results for sure. Though I can't claim this for pellet rifles but normal rifle calibers. When you have two rounds/caliber with the same energy when it comes to game the wider bullet makes the faster recovery due to the wider wound channel.
If you're rich, both are lots of fun and you can own whatever you like and put whatever you like to your purpose. That being said, I am careful what I buy, and I was shopping for info on this very subject and did find this video. I've got a Hatsan Mod 125 .17 cal. can't live without an excellent gas-piston break barrel. Next, my .22 cal. Benjamin Marauder pistol is loads of fun. So, this was a question of which heavier caliber to get, .25 or .30? Well, it might be both. But I'm getting the .25 regardless, based only on what I saw here. Thinking of getting the Hatsan Galatian Tact. Because Tactical is practical.
By the premise you are evaluating these calibers would be like comparing the 25-06 with a 120 gr slug to the 30-06 with a 150 grain slug. The 25-06 pushes the 120 grain out at about 2980 ft/ sec for 2365 lb/ft of energy while the 30-06 pushes the 150 out at 2910 for 2820 lb/ft of energy. By your method what should be done when comparing the 25-06 to the 30-06 you need to reduce the velocity 30-06 down to 2670 ft/sec so it now develops 2374 lb/ft of energy and then compare how lethal each of each cartridge is to one another. By that same premise if the 338-06 is included into the mix with a 180 grain slug which develops 2950 ft/sec and 3478 lb/ft of energy we would then down load it to 2440 ft/sec and 2379 lb/ft of energy before comparing it to the other cartridges. The reason we move up in caliber is to primarily push a larger heavier slug at the same speed as a smaller caliber with the idea a larger slug with more energy equals greater killing power. It would be nice if you could to repeat the test using the muzzle velocity as the equivalence point and not the muzzle energy.
Penetration is only essential when we don't have enough. If we reach the vitals, the more energy we can dump, the more damage, we will do. If we don't have enough penetration, no amount of damage will be enough. At least when only considering soft lead projectiles traveling at subsonic speeds. This test displayed how smaller calibers will penetrate more given the same power level. A 70 ft-lb .22 Cal would penetrate even more. However, the damage would be less because it's poking a smaller hole. Think about a .308 Vs. a .243. Same case but the 308 will do a lot more damage when it hits. However, that doesn’t mean the .243 won’t get the job done.
Thanks for taking the time to create this video and demonstrate the differences between the two calibers. However, if you would take a moment to answer just one quick question, I'd be obliged. What brand and model airgun would you describe as being the most lethal? Thank you.
Excellent explanation and rudimentary insight into projectile physics. You proved valid points for both calibers and showed that all other things being equal, that with a light projectile of identical momentum and lower drag will out-penetrate a more massive projectile of higher drag with less velocity -ie- speed kills. Referring to WW1 and WW2 tank armor penetration studies conducted by the US Army will validate your conclusions as well. Roy Weatherby was really into something.... But for all you ladies and gentlemen out there still trying to quantify "killing power" please remember that a .25 bullet might expand, but a .30 will never get any smaller. Great video and I hope to see more like it. Take care.
(mass × velocity = energy) (energy per area = intensity) 30 cal is 20% larger than 25 cal... Thus a 30 cal needs 20% great energy per area to generate the same intensity as the 25 cal. and thereby overcome the same amount of resistance creating the same penetration... So a 25 cal at 100 pounds of energy per foot and a 30 cal producing 120 pounds of energy per foot will have the same penetration... However, the same penetration from the 30 caliber will have depleted 20% more energy into the target than the 25 cal. (There are also a few other calculations as well to be able to calculate it all together, i should make a video on it but it's all basic physics)
Excellent video. I saw similar videos online but I still wasn’t 100% convinced. Thanks one test I would like to see is the exact same guns shot at different distances and at what point do they lose penetration or I guess it’s called inertia. I wasn’t good with math, but I’m an economics freak I read it almost every day. I believe in progressive demand-side economics which completely different than supply-side economics. I don’t know why I shifted from firearms to economics.😊
I have a Hatsan 135 QE vortex .25 caliber break barrel air rifle that I shoot H&N 22 grain hornet pellets from and I did a penetration test video that I posted on my channel shooting a hornet pellet from 20 feet away at 3 back to back plastic gallon water jugs and the hornet deposited so much energy into the first jug as they tend to do within the first 5 inches of penetration as is evidenced by it partially ripping the back of the first jug when exiting and it poked a hole in the other side of the second jug but didn’t quite exit it. Had I been shooting a 29 grain domed pellet with the 29 or 30 foot pounds of energy my rifle is putting out at the muzzle it probably would have entered the third jug but not deposited as much energy into the first jug and thus not done as much damage. In a similar test with the Diana 350 magnum .22 I used to have shooting a JSB 18.13 grain domed pellet with about 24 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle it would penetrate slightly deeper poking the third jug but not piercing it but not depositing as much energy or damaging the first jug as much. Even with 5 less foot pounds of energy the domed pellet held onto it’s energy slightly further. Yet when shooting an unopened gallon Hawaiian Punch container the Diana 350 magnum couldn’t shoot the domed pellet through it but my Hatsan could shoot the hornet through it because it’s only about 5 inches of liquid to get through as well as the 2 thick layers of plastic and the hornets dump most of their energy within the first 5 inches so the greater energy from my rifle could get the hornet through that 5 inches. This test comparison on this video should be done with the .25 caliber and .30 caliber versions of my rifle using domed pellets
As someone who owns a DeltWolf I would like to see this test with both rounds at the same fps. I would probably set the rifle to shoot either at 950fps. The you would see a substantial difference.
All other things equal, the projectile with less surface area will suffer less velocity drop equaling greater penetration. Most airgun hunting is more dependent on penetration than energy. However, sectional density and strength play a role in mass retention, which is even more important to penetration than velocity.
Great video Donnie!; Among so many variables, very interesting approach considering physics / sec. density / kinetic energy / momentum. I'd also keep in mind, air is also a 'fluid' that exerts drag in a given projectile. All of the documented info truly appreciated!!. I feel lucky I found your YT channel, ergo, I gladly subbed.. 😌🇺🇸🙏
I have no formal education in physics beyond high school. However, I have to know how and why things work in my many hobbies. Archery, billards, airguns, and most recently darts and slingshots all involve a lot of physics. I research and study until I understand what is going on. My wife is a math and science teacher. She often says " it's called applied physics (or math) . Yep, I a nerd. Anyway, I need more videos like this. Educational. Short. Direct. A voice that scares the living shit out of me! Lol! That's not saying I don't absolutely enjoy when you cut loose on videos ( that Randy Savage thing) made me spray bourbon on my phone! You folks have a good thing going. Keep up the good work. I really enjoy this channel.
Awesome video!!!! Lethality is determined by how much kinetic energy is delivered on target, pass through's leave little to no damage (wound channel collapses in on itself the entire length, this is where smaller cross section projectiles with hollowed out cross sections excel, they leave a gaping wound channel that does not collapse on itself, and blood loss and trauma set in) where as a hit and stay in target leave's said wound channel open where the projectile is embedded which translates to more blood loss, and more trauma on soft targets. Head shots are all about penetration, just like body armor is defeated by higher velocities, with smaller cross sections at POI. H&N 31.1gr Grizzlies are ideal for head shots, they have a small cross section starred hollow point, made with hardened lead.
Deeper penetration is the inverse of the reason why expanding projectiles are used. Expanding projectiles are used because they are deadlier. That is true, unless they have insufficient penetration.
Penetration is the foremost function of a projectile. When dealing with low energy airguns (compared to high energy firearms), penetration is often questionable. If it doesn't go in, or go in far enough, energy transfer is a moot point. Even the biggest, baddest airguns made are barely firearm handgun powerful. How do handguns kill? They poke holes so you bleed, even with modern hollowpoints. Airguns are no different, and less powerful. -Donnie
Now I'm an old timer. But when I was a young man all the old timers would say there's two calibers that kill better than the other calibers. The 22 and the 30 calibers. The calibers that fly through the air better and farther do penetrate better. Like the 270. But they will do less damage to the body.
The other thing to take into consideration is efficiency. When someone is debating .25 vs .30 they’re primarily mulling over pellet cost, shot count, kinetic energy and trajectory. On pellet cost and trajectory the .25 is the obvious winner, but generally a .30 is going to produce more energy given the same pressures and barrel length. Just comparing springers, with the same springs and swept volume the kinetic energy tends to increase with the caliber. So if two PCPs are both tuned to a similar energy level it’s likely the .30 will use less air and get more shots per fill.
Here in Texas, we can now hunt deer with air guns, but it has to be .30cal or larger. I have no doubt though a good high powered .25cal would work well enough providing you could get good shot placement at reasonable ranges
@@garrysansoucie only allowed .177 here in Cyprus, believe me 35 ft/lb is crazy enough. Zeroed at 40m anything from 30 to 70 metres is pretty much cross hairs on target is where you hit POA = POI
Its a matter of creating holes big enough to disturb critical functions in the body of the prey. That can be done with a deep hole as well as a big hole.. Your shot placement should exploit the strengths of the weapon you are using. A strong shooter can take down any prey with most modern airguns regardless of caliber, accuracy will get you further than force.. Happy hunting
When would you turn the 30 cal down to equal FPE? Obviously if the bigger diameter hims a target with equal energy in won't go in as far. What's the point of this?
Hmm...very interesting data. It most certainly makes since when comparing the two calibers at the same ft/lbs of energy. However, my 30 caliber FX Maverick (with mods) is putting out ~110 ft/lbs with FX hybrid slugs 44.5 gn at 1053 ft/s (not an ideal speed for those slugs) and ~116 ft/lbs with NSA 49.5 gn at 1026 ft/s. I also have the option of slowing this down by using heavier slugs while upping the ft/lbs of energy and possibly increasing the accuracy. My point being that if my 30 caliber couldn't do better than 70 ft/lbs, I would have never bought it. In fact, Matt Dubber has shown that the FX Impact in 22 caliber can hit 70ft/lbs and it's very capable.
I agree. My threshold for a .30 is 100ft-lbs, and @100 ft-lbs. . .it's a great caliber for airgunning, I feel it's the best "bigger bore" size, but don't break that 100+ ft-lbs rule and it performs very well.
@@life_of_riley88 I've seen slugs up to 150gr, possible to shoot something that heavy by adjusting the hammer on a 100 fpe gun? I'm thinking about getting the new umarex gauntlet .30 for my first air gun. I want to smack some coyotes that come at night for my 🐔 🐓 100 yards max.. any advice?
@@slick408 The challenge with going over 50+ grains in .30 Cal is that you might get more energy, but not many guns will push them very fast. I think you'll find that 45-60 grain NSA slugs do VERY well on Coyotes as long as they're going above 900fps at impact. Try to stay at or above 100ft-lbs and you'll do fine.
I think folks are missing forms and functions of an airgun vs. a firearm in most if their understanding of what you are trying to say in a short video. Airguns kill primarily through hemorrhage and exanguination than through energy transfer alone. Furthermore, you have to understand aerodynamic forces at play, even over 20 yds, before talking Airguns and thinking firearms ballistics. Utilizing slugs negates alot of the tertiary issues, but it's different lead, speeds, and bc's. Using pellets, as in the video, exacerbates the misunderstanding, as folks miss the fact of the aerodynamic forces at play. These reduce the energy on target and therfore terminal performance (energy dump which equates to temporary cavity[hemorrhage] and penetration[anxsaguination]). The biggest revolution in Airgun Technology, has been in projectiles. What you have here is a baseline for all other airgun types and calibers. Airguns have come a long way from the pump-daisy repeater. Not all Airguns are created equally. As for those who wonder why the .25 would be more lethal, greater penetration outweighs energy dump at lower velocity. Anxsaguination is key to a quicker kill, when shock cannot shut down nervous flight responses in the brain. When talking headshots, the only "ethical headshot" is one that entirely severs the spinal connection, or damages the brain beyond functionality. In these respects, the .25 wins again, as penetration is the key to entirely severing the CNSI tract. In airguns, penetration is just as, if not more so, important to an ethical hunt.
This was probably the most correct and coherent comment on this video. I wish I would have included a similar explanation in this video, as this point is clearly lost on most posters. I thank you for this! -Donnie
There is still more to this that should be factored in. Show the wound channel and upset between them and I believe it show show a much different picture. Another thing this does show is that the .30 caliber transfers it's energy into the target much more rapidly causing much higher shock. These air guns in either caliber are used for small game that do not have a 13" or 18" cross section so a projectile with the capability to transfer its energy much faster has the advantage. I have seen this argument in archery just the same and the heavier projectile always won. There is also the difficulty in testing this in hunting handguns. There had to be a different test and physics equation created because the equations used for rifle cartridges made large bore handgun cartridges and even many large bore rifle cartridges look absolutely harmless. They came up with something called the K.O factor. Love the video. I'm now a subscriber.
The only problem for me is I would go with the .30 cal because here in Florida we can hunt deer with .30 cal not with the .25 cal. Good article though.
Obviously it will penetrate deeper, but watch the video and can see the table shake more when the .30 caliber hit. More energy expended into the target.
I can't resist, You used less than (). I am wonder 20 yrds is close if pellets are anything like my cross bow bolts the longer the bolt flys the harder it seems to hit. If I shoot the 30 yrd taget at the range I am fine but the longer shots go deeperin the 40 yrs and right thru the 60 yrd targets ( they were all new and the same build).
You are correct. That was a boner of a typo, but the video was complete by the time I noticed. My apologies for that. As far as your bolts go, your assessment is incorrect. They have the most energy they'll ever have the moment they leave the launcher. They only slow down and lose energy from that point. -Donnie
@@briangray6372 I assure you, what I said is correct. There is some other explanation for the deeper penetration. They absolutely DO NOT gain energy the farther they go. -Donnie
@@BakerAirguns with arrows there is a flex and stabilization period for the spine of the shaft and then a increase of speed when the energy is not being taken by the stabilization process and the shaft straightens out, really prevalent in long bows.... its a paradox....
@@250tango5 I'm going to have to say No one that one. Your not going to gain velocity of an arrow as it goes down range unless you have some sort of propulsion in the arrow like a missile.
The fact that you had to dial down the .30 to the same power says it all. The 30 going almost as far with a significantly higher drag coefficient says how much energy it's carrying. Another factor is weather you think dumping 100 percent of the energy into the target is more deadly or not. The only time I pick smaller caliber is to defeat armor. Small and fast defeats armor, but only with a significant increase in speed. The speed difference with pcp doesn't vary enough for that to matter. The 30 cal is dealer all day long, as long as you don't try to tone it down to make a point. I do see how you're coming to your conclusion, though. Well thought out video. I would suggest shooting optimum grain pellet for the same style gun at the optimum fill pressure for both 25 and 30 and see the results from that. Aea 25 and 30 cal are 50+ foot lbs different with everything else being the same. Well done guys.
The equation for drag force is air pockets the amount of water in each individual subject matter that would be blood bone flesh and Gristle not to mention fat versus the solids for bone it would be the fats for tomorrow and the calcium for the surrounding bone itself for the gristle it would be the calcium protein combo and for the muscle it would be the protein for the blood the protein is almost ridiculously small for blood I usually use pure water fluid resistance times two. Anyways after doing two pages worth of math in my head for each projectile consideration I'm coming up with a significant difference in penetration with the 25 caliber and a significant difference in blood force trauma with the 30 caliber. My theory is that the 30 caliber is going to destroy the shoulder blade and rib bone doing significant damage to a lung and most likely the heart. The 25 caliber will do extreme damage through and through as long as it does not hit the shoulder blade or a rib however striking both will stop the 25 caliber short of the heart. My subject is a 300 lb swine.
They both have their usage. For me, on a broadside shot through the lungs and heart, I'd take the .30. It will drop more energy within the channel and a more likelihood of collapsed lungs and heart which in turn would be a more efficient kill. On a front headshot, a 25 would travel through the brain and into the spinal cord which would drop it in it's tracks. That being said, both will put a hog down. For a hog over 75lbs, I'm opting for .357-.50 .. Happy Shooting
With air I only hunt small game which I categorize as raccoon, woodchuck, skunks, and then down from there , my largest caliber in air is .25 and a 33.95 jsb going 925-975 fps to the Noggin or lung/ heart shot to any of those animals and they have dropped in their tracks, haven't had the opportunity on a coyote yet with air but I'm more than confident in my shooting that if I got 1 within 50 yards I could drop him, much more than that I probably wouldn't take the shot too much power loss passed 50 with a pellet I'd possibly go 70 yards with the right slug but that's about it, further than that imo you need a larger caliber carrying more ft lbs of energy , as I've hunted these same animals with a 22lr and 22wmr and have seen how a not so perfect shot doesn't provide a humane quick kill , of course we all want to be as ethical a hunter as possible even with pest animals of course, I've found with birds a lot of people prefer .177 myself I like my .22 flashpup or my Beeman r1 in .20 a little more of a challenge , I live next door to a farm so nothing pleases me more than seeing a European starling fall from a tree LOL I hate them damn flying greasy rats,
I agree. With an airgun, you should be shooting close range anyways. Headshots all the way with a .25. I wouldn't risk a broadside shot on a deer with a .25.
No hostility here. But (you know there had to be a but) the projectiles are made of the same material. The projectiles ductility has to be considered compared to the targets resistance to deformation and desired depth of penetration to adequately predict its performance on a given target. I would like to see testing with projectiles of various hardness at the same velocity. (for penetration testing) It could very well be ,in a hunting or defense situation , that the .30, while not going as deep into the target may have distributed its energy in a way that was more effective compared with deeper penetrating projectiles of a smaller diameter ,made of the same soft lead. That extra momentum and increased frontal area ,(that increases the resistance to penetration ,) is what knocks thing down . It also makes a broader wound channel that is less likely to close behind the projectile. It really depends on exactly what one desires to achieve with the projectile’s terminal performance. Great vid. 👍 We need affordable pellet cast and swage molds to be produced in this country so we can play with different lead alloys. You want to get right on that Don?😁👍 There’s a Vietnamese fellow that has come up with what looks like an effective system made from plates of steel. Feel free to root around in my playlists about DIY homemade airgun pellets it’s in there somewhere.
Watch Part II of, "What's dealier, a .25 or .30 cal airgun" at this link...
czcams.com/video/piomGOAFUiM/video.html
A foreign fella SP Guns kind of sold me on the .25 before his channel went to pew tube heaven. Any tuned air rifle is going to have a modified pressure disc to make maximum power with fewer shots
EU regs limit air rifles to 9 fpe or 9.7gr 4.5mm @760 fps while PCPs have so much untapped potential
Good experiment and sound science. The only thing I’ll point out though is that the test was performed uniformly at 20 yards. I believe that would favor the .25 caliber. We can leave aside the physics jargon,.. You’ve made all variables equal, except of course the properties of the pellets themselves. You would expect the pellet with the smaller profile cross section to experience less drag through the medium.
Now, how about when you start to widen the distance? I’ve seen anecdotal tests of a Hatsan Blitz hitting line boards, back and forth between a .25 and a .30 caliber. The 30 definitively carries more energy past the 75 yard threshold.
Was your decision to set the targets at 20 yards just arbitrary? Because I believe beyond a certain distance threshold you’ll actually see the results of the experiment flip between the two calibers.
Dude! We need to chat soon on this topic for big bore Airguns. I just dropped that Doe last weekend with the .50 cal Texan short carbine at around 500 FPE. At 50 yards the slug bedded on the backside of the hide. It was perfectly broadside so I was like WTF! I expected to blow right through that Doe.
At the same 500 FPE power level, I get .457 slugs penciling through deer almost every single time. So your test has a lot of application for big bore Airguns on larger game. With Deer they rarely just fold up and expire on the spot so having a full pass through on a double lung shot is preferable to create a fully open wound cavity for better blood trails not to mention a deer can survive on a single lung. Contrary to some of the comments on this post about a full energy dump being ideal. With deer, it is not.
Keep up the Airgun geekery brother!
Absolutely, man! Clearly this topic needs further investigation and explanation. I would love to talk with you about it.
-Donnie
Although I respect your opinion, I do disagree. The more energy transferred, the more damage done. That IS physics. But I Absolutely see what you're saying about faster bleed out with the passthrough. Shot placement is of course critical, but if slightly off center, I'd prefer damage to passthrough. You could hit em in the ass with a passthrough and have them run off, but with full energy dump, it may have had a broken leg or spine and not able to run off. But the military has done more research on this subject than Anyone on the planet. Might want to read some of their thoughts on the subject. (Spoiler, they believe in energy transfer).
@@scottmichael3745 Well first off you’re totally wrong in the fact the deer isn’t expiring from bleeding out of your shot selection was correct. Your shutting down the respiratory system not the circulatory system with a double lung shot.
What I’m saying is you get a better blood trail for tracking and NOT that the animal is expiring from loss of blood. Dispatching from blood loss can actually take a long time. I’ve tracked Deer for hundreds of yards with blood everywhere to have it all of a sudden just stop. Often from the single hole becoming clogged most likely from tissue. It happens and every seasoned hunter has experienced it.
The amount of energy we get with big bore Airguns is in the realm of handgun firearm cartridges not high energy projectiles like you mention the military doing studies on which I’m assuming you’re referencing studies done on 5.56 and 7.62 ammo. Those projectiles are producing energy in the magnitude of thousands of foot pounds of energy, not hundreds like we see with Airguns.
I’ve dispatched quite a few deer with big bore Airguns and will tell you it’s much more like archery, not firearms. Go watch handgun shootout footage on CZcams with handguns. People aren’t getting blown off their feet when getting hit with 9mm or 45 ACP rounds. Sometimes if they are hopped up enough on adrenaline (or drugs), they just keep coming.
Shot placement is crucial but dumping 500 FPE into a 200 pound animal doesn’t do as much as you think it would. Go watch some of my videos where I dump 600 FPE hollow points into the chest of a large Doe and they just look around like what just but me. It’s different man. Trust me
So you trading that .50 cal in for a .257? Probably not because you want the biggest hole that passes through.
Ok, now that Does make sense to me! You can't breath, you can't run. Heart pumping or not.
I've been waiting for you and Baker Airguns to make a return. Your content is always valuable to me, AND thoroughly well researched, documented and presented. Thank you. Subscribed, finally.
Thank you very much! Welcome to the channel.
-Donnie
I understand you logic, but you test show that the 30 caliber sheds energy quicker in the target. When hunting that equals quicker kills
Penetration is the foremost function of a projectile. When dealing with low energy airguns (compared to high energy firearms), penetration is often questionable. If it doesn't go in, or go in far enough, energy transfer is a moot point. Even the biggest, baddest airguns made are barely firearm handgun powerful. How do handguns kill? They poke holes so you bleed, even with modern hollowpoints. Airguns are no different, and less powerful.
-Donnie
@@BakerAirguns Penetration is not the foremost function. It's dumping all the energy into the animal and not just punching hole through. If you have, and can dump all the ft/lbs of energy into animal and not through it, you're ahead of the game. That's knock down power, that's lights out power. I have an .25 Edgun, two .30's and two 357's pellet/slug PCP's. Trust me, .25's don't hit and kill nearly as fast as the larger calibers. Thirty cals blow squirrels clean out of the tree. Thirty's kill groundhogs, .25's are sketchy without a perfect hit.
@@timtullio1210 Yeah man I just GOTTA agree with you. Really liked the video, but I believe his "physics" are incorrect. Energy dump is EVERYTHING! I killed LOTS of birds as a kid with a pump 177 and very rarely did it ever make a hole. Hollow points are designed Specifically to increase energy transfer. And if the projectile exits the target, well that's waisted energy...
@@timtullio1210 you've made a very good point but with respect, I feel like the point of this video was not about the question of; Is penetration more important than energy dump? I felt it was very much about introducing to less experienced air gun shooters, the basic first principals of ballistics as they pertain to Air Guns (especially PCP's). As a Break Barrel gunner, it helped me visualise a couple of really important scenarios:
1. The crossover of efficacy of the two bore sizes' projectile at the same FPE at the muzzle for both penetration and terminal energy. EG - If I have less penetration, my effective range is reduced, which could affect target selection (size, type and POA/POI). Or, what's my DOPE going to be? How would that affect my working range, firing positions or both? Donnie's theory and explanations of the variables would help almost any lay person to answer those questions themselves - whether that be to choose a new platform or, make adjustments in the field quickly with whichever platform they're using. Which is fantastic.
2. If I was considering a new platform, do I need .30 cal, or would .25 Cal suit my needs better?
And from that perspective, I felt Donnie's testing methodology and explanations spoke to both of those scenarios really well as a layperson to PCP world.
The other great outcome of Donnie explaining things the way he has, is that less experienced PCP gunners can apply all of this to their own decision making in the field. The more folks that have a good understanding of Ballistics as a subject, the less likely it is they'll make unfortunate choices, and the higher the likelihood of humane kills.
That's what I took from the video anyway.
If that was Donnie's intention for this video, do you feel he nailed it? What are your thoughts from that point of view?
Cheers
@@100PCMMCW He called the 25 more deadlier. I think that's the discrepancy people are having.
It's NOT just about penetration. It's also about wound cavity. The 30 caliber wins as far as total destruction. That's the bet to go with.
EXACTLY! The difference in depth is NOT significant! If the 25 kills a hog, Im betting the 30 would do it better due to a bigger hole and a heavier pellet. He nerded his way into nonsense.
@@jrwill58 Absolutely!
Basically because of the size difference, there is more grab area upon arrival of the projectile, thus quickly arresting it's penetration distance, so that is easily understood. But I think that the .30 cal would inflict more cavitational damage upon entry, thus possibly inflicting more damage. Good vid 👍👍
Thank you! I address this very thing in Part II of this experimentation. It's on our page if you'd like to see.
-Donnie
Great video, Donny! So many variables are involved in determining "deadliness" that this subject will never be settled. It's the same as the firearm discussion about "knock-down" power. In the end, for me, a more important question is "What is the minimum" for a quarry?
Thank you very much! That's a good way to look at it.
-Donnie
I agree no pun intended but actual firearms might be “over kill”
Rather than the "minimum" and assuming the shot will be perfect, wouldn't it be better to use what has the surest effect? If your "minimum" device is slightly off target, there will be pointless suffering. You might be a sportsman,shooting for your entertainment, but you're no hunter.
@@RealTechZen: 100% agreed!.
I’d love to see the results at 40+ yards and see if the results are different. It seems the drag coefficient could be a greater factor at that distance
Thts wht i was thinking about also,how would greater distances effect the performance,also the .25 has less surface so less drag to impede velocity, there's also the design n weight of the pellet
Link?
Thanks for another great video Donnie. my humble opinion here is that when comparing two different calibers one should take in consideration weight and speed and all those factors contributing to get the max performance and devastation out of each caliber. in that case a bigger caliber with a proper expansion is a winner, for hunting purposes every day of the week 👍🔫🇸🇪
I have to tell you, i am new to the Air rifle world but I have to say, watched the whole thing. You sir, are a very charismatic individual. thank you for video and making my choice harder when buying my first air rifle.
Lot's can be said about this topic and how one wishes to use this information, but as a general rule when dispatching an animal you typically want to transfer the complete amount energy of the projectile to the target. Even more important than that, is first hitting the target in the best location for the cleanest kill. This will ensure the most successful result. If a projectile passes through the target precious energy has been wasted. Too many variables to talk about depending on many issues but that is a good start. Enjoyed seeing your results and after testing similar things with handguns I was not surprised with your results. A .22 rimfire will travel through more 2X4's than .a .357Mag, a 45ACP, and a 44Mag but I would have a different choice than a .22 rimfire for a personal protection weapon, if available. Good stuff to ponder.
I forget who said it but it is a universal truth: a .177 to the head is way more likely to kill than a .457 to the foot. It's all about shot placement. Good post. Take it easy.
@@davidpaylor5666 exactly. That would be one unbelievable sore foot though. LOL
@@larrycoleman2225 Yep. You might WISH you were dead with that much lead in what remains of your ankle but won't kill you.
@@davidpaylor5666 Yeah, I agree, LOL. Might need a tourniquet to slow the red ooze. ;)
@@davidpaylor5666 with that said I have never seen an eighteen inch brain either.... lol just saying
Who shoots 2 calibers at the same energy though? 25 cal is capable of 100ft lb and the 30 cal much more. 60gr 30 cal at 950fps vs 50gr 25 cal at 950fps the 30 cal is going to perform better right? Slugs are designed to expand and stop with the exception of bull nose or solid nose slugs so very cool break down of what you've shown but I can't see anyone going up to a 35 cal to shoot it at 600fps to go hunting. FPE comparison is great for what you're showing though nice work for giving the up side and down side in both options.
Tbh their is the rule of thumb to 'keeping everything the same except one thing' when conducting experiments
🤣buy one of ea🥳
@@jeffchin1197 or have 1 that shoots all 3 progressively harder hitting with each caliber on 1 tune?
I don’t care if it’s 25 or 30 I’m just here to watch you’re videos! Love the content!
Thank you very much!
-Donnie
No need for the gel tests at all, really. It's very simple: Higher FPE = more deadly. Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate the efforts here. But it isn't about penetration - it's about energy dump. And the .30 is heavier and dumps more energy on your target. Period.
The fpe for the test was equal. And if a pellet doesn't go into the target...it will not kill it. Deadliness starts with penetration.
-Donnie
@@BakerAirguns I skipped all the talking up front so I missed that part! SCIENCE!
Generally, .30 is going to be hitting with more fpe than .25 so a bit of a misleading title, there, Mr.!
Haha cheers and have a good weekend!
It's also about ballistics and drag: if your .30 sheds 50% of it's energy between the muzzle and the target but your .25 only loses 25% then you are getting more energy into your target with the .25.
@@airshootist Thanks man! You too!
-Donnie
@@davidpaylor5666 Great point! This is why for most my small game pesting, I choose .22 for the highest BCs so I can reach out real far if needed. Still wanna wallop some squirrels and chipmunks with .30. Maybe down the road I'll get a .30 kit for the Maverick and post some videos about it and get banned. 👍
This video actually made me feel better about getting a 25 caliber
Don't take this seriously.
You did an amazing job demonstrating the power and physics of it all. Something that i myself was curious about and wanted to know. With that said I’m buying a 25 cal now 😁🤙
Great video. Thank you. These types of unbiased factual information are gold for us newbies. Well done.👏
I love the nerdy aspects of theoretical analysis.
Combined, with actual,
scientifically measured testing.
👍 Right On.
Interesting video, you nailed it I think.
I think the .30 caliber dumps more energy and does this quicker. The ballistic gel jumps up quite a bit in the 30 cal hit. Moreover the .30 caliber remains its energy longer. So try this at 50 m. I have the Hatsan .30 breakbarrel. The trajectory of the heavy pellets is curved, 50 m takes 2,5 milldots.
I love that gun! It's like tossing HAMMERS! I shoot at steel and it is a Blast! That lead turns to leaf at 50yrd on thick swinging steel
I bet it kicks quite a bit too
As someone who spent a year doing research and live testing on .177,.22,.25 cal airguns under 25fpe I would say most people commenting are basing this off what’s on paper or their personal experiences. I have literally took the time to try to create a “killing power” formula or medium for these power ranges and let’s just say when you talking about LOW POWER SMALL CALIBER (under 25fpe) and smaller than .25 cal there is no linear climb in energy delivery in actual game. Meaning I use lower velocity high penetration.177 for almost all small game and have found it fairs way better for consistency in killing power and speed verses my higher energy options. Like I said most will disagree but I spent a year focusing on this and I’m telling you for the SMALL CALIBERS it’s just better. For the calibers he’s speaking about I don’t have direct experience to comment but with well placed shots on proper game none of this really matters bc you can’t be any deader than dead.
Great video, although that 6/10th of an inch threw me off. Most would say 9/16 or 5/8. 😅
your not going to make us angry your doing a fine job letting us know what is what :)
I love how you break it down Barney style. My wife can figure it out 😂
Simple physics as Donny demonstrates... At same muzzle energy the thinner pellet will penetrate more distance due to less resistance.. But fatter pellet will make more wide damage
Like your information ; i believe 30gr infact is acting like a brake on impact on the jelly from its width & weight .
Cheers .nice video.
If you JUST take the frontal area of pellets.
.177 = 15,9 mm2
.22 = 23,75 mm2
.25 = 31,65 mm2
.30 = 45,6 mm2
A 40 J .177 has. 40 :15,9 = 2,52 J/ mm2... To get 2,52 J / mm2 for the other cal. you need..
.22 : 2,52 x 23,75 = 59,85 J or 44 ftp
.25 : 2,52 x 31,65 = 79,76 J or 59 ftp
.30 : 2,52 x 45,6o = 114,9 J or 86 ttp
I’m not sold on penetration = lethality. The most lethal self defense ammo is made to NOT over penetrate. Not only for beyond target safety but because it transfers all the energy to the target. If a round goes through a target it’s obviously taking some of that energy with it.
A truly fair comparison wouldn't be based on equivalent FPE, but rather through matching VELOCITY. Eliminating the squared factor would allow for direct comparison of momentum/drag coefficient for a more accurate assessment of penetration at range between calibers
Everything you just said is wrong.
-Donnie
The cross sectional friction coefficient of a projectile is increased as diameter increases thus less penetration as caliber increases
This it pretty much just common sense. Testing with same energy but smaller diameter …lol. obviously it will penetrate deeper because there is less surface area creating drag. The whole point of larger Airgun calibers is to allow more weight and more air volume able to push that weight to a similar velocity, which equals substantially more energy and in turn, more penetration AND energy dump at the same time.
Awesome video! I want to do the same thing, comparing the .25 and .30 cal AEA HP SS pistols into some homemade ballistic gel. The .25 is around 35fpe and the .30 (non-plus version) is about 40fpe.
Great idea!
-Donnie
But both would shine in different areas. In gel we see the .25 penetrates better. But shoot a gallon of water and see which has a bigger splash impact on the bottle. Shoot into a t-bone and see which shoots fragments of lead in the meat more.
The gel shows very little
Another interesting comparison would be at a longer range, where the BC of projectiles make a big difference.
Great video.....age old battle of calibers.....6.5 vs 7.62
Gimme my Swede!!! Just ordered a sidewinder 25. Wind drift is also something to consider.
Good test mate 👍 but it makes me wonder even if the .30 doesn’t penetrate as far would it not cause more damage with the extra diameter with a bigger wound channel and be more concussive. Just a thought might be a good video to try out.
Yes! He only tested penetration, no real analysis of wound channel size etc.
My Hatsan hercules bully in 25cal is an AWESOME pcp it lays down 80 f-lbs with a Diablo 25gr. @ 1200 fps. Thats with a slight tune, just turning a screw a bit.
The 25cal Hatsan bully is no joke.
Would have loved to see this done at 50 or 100 yards. Nice video thank you.
Penetration does not translate to lethality. It’s part of it, but frontal area and energy dump are king.
Few things....
The greater than sign faces the other way. Less than LEFT (both start with with S's. Gotta thank my 6th grade math teacher for that trick, thanks Mrs Cabrara)
Penetration has little to do with "deadly" I'd rather get shot and have the bullet pencil thru than get hit with a hollow point slug with more fpe that explode my organs and kills me immediately.
Wood has knots. Shooting through wood as a test is never going to give you repeatable results.
Aside from that, I loved the video. I was actually suprised by the results. Regardless if I disagree with the "deadly" aspect
It's all about the speed for penetration and mass for knock down power
Your video makes me feel better about my .25 Hatsan Bully which has about the same FPE as you are showing. This shows me that the .25 is not a wimpy round and will give good penetration. The .30 cal Bully has 40 FPE more than the .25 so it would hit harder. Maybe try the same test with FPE on both at full power.
Right on! I'll see what I can do.
-Donnie
I would assume most people are shooting birds and squirrels and maybe raccoon size animals. And when you're getting a full pass through every time penetration doesn't matter anymore. It's the wound channel which the wound channel of the 25 would be bigger. So it would be more damage
Excellent video. I learned a lot of knowledge. 👍
Good stuff but penetration after 12" does not matter much on most animals . How thick is a squirrel? Rabbit? 12" is more than enough
Very good test with interesting results for sure. Though I can't claim this for pellet rifles but normal rifle calibers. When you have two rounds/caliber with the same energy when it comes to game the wider bullet makes the faster recovery due to the wider wound channel.
If you're rich, both are lots of fun and you can own whatever you like and put whatever you like to your purpose. That being said, I am careful what I buy, and I was shopping for info on this very subject and did find this video.
I've got a Hatsan Mod 125 .17 cal. can't live without an excellent gas-piston break barrel. Next, my .22 cal. Benjamin Marauder pistol is loads of fun. So, this was a question of which heavier caliber to get, .25 or .30? Well, it might be both. But I'm getting the .25 regardless, based only on what I saw here. Thinking of getting the Hatsan Galatian Tact. Because Tactical is practical.
By the premise you are evaluating these calibers would be like comparing the 25-06 with a 120 gr slug to the 30-06 with a 150 grain slug. The 25-06 pushes the 120 grain out at about 2980 ft/ sec for 2365 lb/ft of energy while the 30-06 pushes the 150 out at 2910 for 2820 lb/ft of energy. By your method what should be done when comparing the 25-06 to the 30-06 you need to reduce the velocity 30-06 down to 2670 ft/sec so it now develops 2374 lb/ft of energy and then compare how lethal each of each cartridge is to one another. By that same premise if the 338-06 is included into the mix with a 180 grain slug which develops 2950 ft/sec and 3478 lb/ft of energy we would then down load it to 2440 ft/sec and 2379 lb/ft of energy before comparing it to the other cartridges. The reason we move up in caliber is to primarily push a larger heavier slug at the same speed as a smaller caliber with the idea a larger slug with more energy equals greater killing power. It would be nice if you could to repeat the test using the muzzle velocity as the equivalence point and not the muzzle energy.
I think heavy slugs needs more power so you cannot set a 25cal the same way as a 30 cal and expect to get better results from the 30 cal
Penetration is only essential when we don't have enough. If we reach the vitals, the more energy we can dump, the more damage, we will do.
If we don't have enough penetration, no amount of damage will be enough. At least when only considering soft lead projectiles traveling at subsonic speeds.
This test displayed how smaller calibers will penetrate more given the same power level. A 70 ft-lb .22 Cal would penetrate even more. However, the damage would be less because it's poking a smaller hole.
Think about a .308 Vs. a .243. Same case but the 308 will do a lot more damage when it hits. However, that doesn’t mean the .243 won’t get the job done.
Thanks for taking the time to create this video and demonstrate the differences between the two calibers. However, if you would take a moment to answer just one quick question, I'd be obliged. What brand and model airgun would you describe as being the most lethal? Thank you.
Excellent explanation and rudimentary insight into projectile physics. You proved valid points for both calibers and showed that all other things being equal, that with a light projectile of identical momentum and lower drag will out-penetrate a more massive projectile of higher drag with less velocity -ie- speed kills. Referring to WW1 and WW2 tank armor penetration studies conducted by the US Army will validate your conclusions as well. Roy Weatherby was really into something.... But for all you ladies and gentlemen out there still trying to quantify "killing power" please remember that a .25 bullet might expand, but a .30 will never get any smaller. Great video and I hope to see more like it. Take care.
Thank you very much!
-Donnie
Bigger cavity wound from .30 where . 25 goes in with a smaller cavity wound. But all around great info. Thanks
(mass × velocity = energy) (energy per area = intensity) 30 cal is 20% larger than 25 cal... Thus a 30 cal needs 20% great energy per area to generate the same intensity as the 25 cal. and thereby overcome the same amount of resistance creating the same penetration... So a 25 cal at 100 pounds of energy per foot and a 30 cal producing 120 pounds of energy per foot will have the same penetration... However, the same penetration from the 30 caliber will have depleted 20% more energy into the target than the 25 cal. (There are also a few other calculations as well to be able to calculate it all together, i should make a video on it but it's all basic physics)
Are you trying to invent your own physics? Because everything you said is wrong.
Great to watch ! Thanks
Excellent video. I saw similar videos online but I still wasn’t 100% convinced. Thanks one test I would like to see is the exact same guns shot at different distances and at what point do they lose penetration or I guess it’s called inertia. I wasn’t good with math, but I’m an economics freak I read it almost every day. I believe in progressive demand-side economics which completely different than supply-side economics. I don’t know why I shifted from firearms to economics.😊
I have a Hatsan 135 QE vortex .25 caliber break barrel air rifle that I shoot H&N 22 grain hornet pellets from and I did a penetration test video that I posted on my channel shooting a hornet pellet from 20 feet away at 3 back to back plastic gallon water jugs and the hornet deposited so much energy into the first jug as they tend to do within the first 5 inches of penetration as is evidenced by it partially ripping the back of the first jug when exiting and it poked a hole in the other side of the second jug but didn’t quite exit it. Had I been shooting a 29 grain domed pellet with the 29 or 30 foot pounds of energy my rifle is putting out at the muzzle it probably would have entered the third jug but not deposited as much energy into the first jug and thus not done as much damage. In a similar test with the Diana 350 magnum .22 I used to have shooting a JSB 18.13 grain domed pellet with about 24 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle it would penetrate slightly deeper poking the third jug but not piercing it but not depositing as much energy or damaging the first jug as much. Even with 5 less foot pounds of energy the domed pellet held onto it’s energy slightly further. Yet when shooting an unopened gallon Hawaiian Punch container the Diana 350 magnum couldn’t shoot the domed pellet through it but my Hatsan could shoot the hornet through it because it’s only about 5 inches of liquid to get through as well as the 2 thick layers of plastic and the hornets dump most of their energy within the first 5 inches so the greater energy from my rifle could get the hornet through that 5 inches. This test comparison on this video should be done with the .25 caliber and .30 caliber versions of my rifle using domed pellets
As someone who owns a DeltWolf I would like to see this test with both rounds at the same fps. I would probably set the rifle to shoot either at 950fps. The you would see a substantial difference.
All other things equal, the projectile with less surface area will suffer less velocity drop equaling greater penetration. Most airgun hunting is more dependent on penetration than energy. However, sectional density and strength play a role in mass retention, which is even more important to penetration than velocity.
Great video Donnie!; Among so many variables, very interesting approach considering physics / sec. density / kinetic energy / momentum. I'd also keep in mind, air is also a 'fluid' that exerts drag in a given projectile. All of the documented info truly appreciated!!. I feel lucky I found your YT channel, ergo, I gladly subbed..
😌🇺🇸🙏
I have no formal education in physics beyond high school. However, I have to know how and why things work in my many hobbies. Archery, billards, airguns, and most recently darts and slingshots all involve a lot of physics. I research and study until I understand what is going on. My wife is a math and science teacher. She often says " it's called applied physics (or math) . Yep, I a nerd.
Anyway, I need more videos like this. Educational. Short. Direct. A voice that scares the living shit out of me! Lol!
That's not saying I don't absolutely enjoy when you cut loose on videos ( that Randy Savage thing) made me spray bourbon on my phone!
You folks have a good thing going. Keep up the good work. I really enjoy this channel.
LOLOL at the voice thing. That's really cool that you study the world. I applaud you, sir!
-Donnie
Awesome video!!!!
Lethality is determined by how much kinetic energy is delivered on target, pass through's leave little to no damage (wound channel collapses in on itself the entire length, this is where smaller cross section projectiles with hollowed out cross sections excel, they leave a gaping wound channel that does not collapse on itself, and blood loss and trauma set in) where as a hit and stay in target leave's said wound channel open where the projectile is embedded which translates to more blood loss, and more trauma on soft targets.
Head shots are all about penetration, just like body armor is defeated by higher velocities, with smaller cross sections at POI.
H&N 31.1gr Grizzlies are ideal for head shots, they have a small cross section starred hollow point, made with hardened lead.
Deeper penetration is the inverse of the reason why expanding projectiles are used.
Expanding projectiles are used because they are deadlier. That is true, unless they have insufficient penetration.
Penetration is the foremost function of a projectile. When dealing with low energy airguns (compared to high energy firearms), penetration is often questionable. If it doesn't go in, or go in far enough, energy transfer is a moot point. Even the biggest, baddest airguns made are barely firearm handgun powerful. How do handguns kill? They poke holes so you bleed, even with modern hollowpoints. Airguns are no different, and less powerful.
-Donnie
@@BakerAirguns The conversation needs to start with identifying the quarry. Underpenetration is rarely a problem on a rabbit. It may be on a hog.
Now I'm an old timer. But when I was a young man all the old timers would say there's two calibers that kill better than the other calibers. The 22 and the 30 calibers. The calibers that fly through the air better and farther do penetrate better. Like the 270. But they will do less damage to the body.
Which caliber produced the largest wound cavity in your experiment? My first guess would be the .30 caliber.
There is no appreciable difference in wound track or wound cavity.
-Donnie
@@BakerAirguns that is only because the gel cavities shrink. Using a medium that doesn't do so, will show the 30 cal makes a larger channel.
@@CadillacDriver That is incorrect. See Part II of this experiment on our CZcams page.
-Donnie
@@BakerAirguns which part? The meat? It also shrinks.
@@CadillacDriver Think about what you're saying.
-Donnie
The other thing to take into consideration is efficiency. When someone is debating .25 vs .30 they’re primarily mulling over pellet cost, shot count, kinetic energy and trajectory. On pellet cost and trajectory the .25 is the obvious winner, but generally a .30 is going to produce more energy given the same pressures and barrel length. Just comparing springers, with the same springs and swept volume the kinetic energy tends to increase with the caliber. So if two PCPs are both tuned to a similar energy level it’s likely the .30 will use less air and get more shots per fill.
The .25 got 30 more shots for the same FPE.
Air guns are way more capable of taking game than I ever thought.
I guess I should have watched this video first, lol. Alright man, I'm convinced. I'll get a .25, thanks :)
Great video thanks
The 30cal is more accurate, and hits a lot harder at 100m than the .22. That's from my "experiment" between the Hatsan Vortex break barrels.
Hello fellow PCP shooter. My college thesis…”THE SYMBOLIC STRUCTURE OF LANGUAGE AND MATHMATICS.” .25 FX shooter
Pretty nerdy. For sure.
Sectional density of projectile is what matters givern equal velocity.
Thanks for the video.
Here in Texas, we can now hunt deer with air guns, but it has to be .30cal or larger.
I have no doubt though a good high powered .25cal would work well enough providing you could get good shot placement at reasonable ranges
all I know is the pumpkin shot with the 30 cal is gonna have a worse hair day than the pumpkin who ate the 25
Would love to see the same comparison for 177 and 22
Good suggestion !!! That's always the magic question for most of us out here in CZcams land.
Can you imagine a 70 ft/lb .177? That would be something
@@garrysansoucie only allowed .177 here in Cyprus, believe me 35 ft/lb is crazy enough. Zeroed at 40m anything from 30 to 70 metres is pretty much cross hairs on target is where you hit POA = POI
@@garrysansoucie .177 @ 70 FPE? That would be a 15 grain NSA slug at 1450 fps. Hmmm...
Aea varmint pcp will do 60fpe in .177
Its a matter of creating holes big enough to disturb critical functions in the body of the prey. That can be done with a deep hole as well as a big hole..
Your shot placement should exploit the strengths of the weapon you are using. A strong shooter can take down any prey with most modern airguns regardless of caliber, accuracy will get you further than force..
Happy hunting
That was interesting. Thanks for doing this.
When would you turn the 30 cal down to equal FPE? Obviously if the bigger diameter hims a target with equal energy in won't go in as far. What's the point of this?
Hmm...very interesting data. It most certainly makes since when comparing the two calibers at the same ft/lbs of energy. However, my 30 caliber FX Maverick (with mods) is putting out ~110 ft/lbs with FX hybrid slugs 44.5 gn at 1053 ft/s (not an ideal speed for those slugs) and ~116 ft/lbs with NSA 49.5 gn at 1026 ft/s. I also have the option of slowing this down by using heavier slugs while upping the ft/lbs of energy and possibly increasing the accuracy. My point being that if my 30 caliber couldn't do better than 70 ft/lbs, I would have never bought it. In fact, Matt Dubber has shown that the FX Impact in 22 caliber can hit 70ft/lbs and it's very capable.
I agree. My threshold for a .30 is 100ft-lbs, and @100 ft-lbs. . .it's a great caliber for airgunning, I feel it's the best "bigger bore" size, but don't break that 100+ ft-lbs rule and it performs very well.
@@life_of_riley88 I've seen slugs up to 150gr, possible to shoot something that heavy by adjusting the hammer on a 100 fpe gun? I'm thinking about getting the new umarex gauntlet .30 for my first air gun. I want to smack some coyotes that come at night for my 🐔 🐓 100 yards max.. any advice?
@@slick408 The challenge with going over 50+ grains in .30 Cal is that you might get more energy, but not many guns will push them very fast. I think you'll find that 45-60 grain NSA slugs do VERY well on Coyotes as long as they're going above 900fps at impact. Try to stay at or above 100ft-lbs and you'll do fine.
Thank you, this information is awesome and provides more things to ponder.
I think folks are missing forms and functions of an airgun vs. a firearm in most if their understanding of what you are trying to say in a short video.
Airguns kill primarily through hemorrhage and exanguination than through energy transfer alone. Furthermore, you have to understand aerodynamic forces at play, even over 20 yds, before talking Airguns and thinking firearms ballistics. Utilizing slugs negates alot of the tertiary issues, but it's different lead, speeds, and bc's. Using pellets, as in the video, exacerbates the misunderstanding, as folks miss the fact of the aerodynamic forces at play. These reduce the energy on target and therfore terminal performance (energy dump which equates to temporary cavity[hemorrhage] and penetration[anxsaguination]). The biggest revolution in Airgun Technology, has been in projectiles. What you have here is a baseline for all other airgun types and calibers. Airguns have come a long way from the pump-daisy repeater. Not all Airguns are created equally.
As for those who wonder why the .25 would be more lethal, greater penetration outweighs energy dump at lower velocity. Anxsaguination is key to a quicker kill, when shock cannot shut down nervous flight responses in the brain. When talking headshots, the only "ethical headshot" is one that entirely severs the spinal connection, or damages the brain beyond functionality. In these respects, the .25 wins again, as penetration is the key to entirely severing the CNSI tract. In airguns, penetration is just as, if not more so, important to an ethical hunt.
This was probably the most correct and coherent comment on this video. I wish I would have included a similar explanation in this video, as this point is clearly lost on most posters. I thank you for this!
-Donnie
There is still more to this that should be factored in. Show the wound channel and upset between them and I believe it show show a much different picture. Another thing this does show is that the .30 caliber transfers it's energy into the target much more rapidly causing much higher shock. These air guns in either caliber are used for small game that do not have a 13" or 18" cross section so a projectile with the capability to transfer its energy much faster has the advantage. I have seen this argument in archery just the same and the heavier projectile always won. There is also the difficulty in testing this in hunting handguns. There had to be a different test and physics equation created because the equations used for rifle cartridges made large bore handgun cartridges and even many large bore rifle cartridges look absolutely harmless. They came up with something called the K.O factor. Love the video. I'm now a subscriber.
The only problem for me is I would go with the .30 cal because here in Florida we can hunt deer with .30 cal not with the .25 cal. Good article though.
Obviously it will penetrate deeper, but watch the video and can see the table shake more when the .30 caliber hit. More energy expended into the target.
They both had EXACTLY the same amount of energy. How much the gel moves is a measurement of precisely nothing.
-Donnie
In my mind I was thinking that the smaller diameter .25 pellet going faster than the .30 cal would penetrate farther.
I can't resist, You used less than (). I am wonder 20 yrds is close if pellets are anything like my cross bow bolts the longer the bolt flys the harder it seems to hit. If I shoot the 30 yrd taget at the range I am fine but the longer shots go deeperin the 40 yrs and right thru the 60 yrd targets ( they were all new and the same build).
You are correct. That was a boner of a typo, but the video was complete by the time I noticed. My apologies for that. As far as your bolts go, your assessment is incorrect. They have the most energy they'll ever have the moment they leave the launcher. They only slow down and lose energy from that point.
-Donnie
@@BakerAirguns That is what would make sense But but the bolts from my Ravin R9 go deeper ithen thru each target the further I am from it,
@@briangray6372 I assure you, what I said is correct. There is some other explanation for the deeper penetration. They absolutely DO NOT gain energy the farther they go.
-Donnie
@@BakerAirguns with arrows there is a flex and stabilization period for the spine of the shaft and then a increase of speed when the energy is not being taken by the stabilization process and the shaft straightens out, really prevalent in long bows.... its a paradox....
@@250tango5 I'm going to have to say No one that one. Your not going to gain velocity of an arrow as it goes down range unless you have some sort of propulsion in the arrow like a missile.
My man your not taking into consideration the weight difference. Remember. A few grains really does matter
smaller objects will always penitrate further thats why you can stab through a "bullet proof" vest hence bullet proof vest with specific stab ratings
So which round would be better for hunting ? .25 caliber or .30 cal ? Or maybe a .35. Cal ? @baker airguns
The fact that you had to dial down the .30 to the same power says it all. The 30 going almost as far with a significantly higher drag coefficient says how much energy it's carrying. Another factor is weather you think dumping 100 percent of the energy into the target is more deadly or not. The only time I pick smaller caliber is to defeat armor. Small and fast defeats armor, but only with a significant increase in speed. The speed difference with pcp doesn't vary enough for that to matter. The 30 cal is dealer all day long, as long as you don't try to tone it down to make a point. I do see how you're coming to your conclusion, though. Well thought out video. I would suggest shooting optimum grain pellet for the same style gun at the optimum fill pressure for both 25 and 30 and see the results from that. Aea 25 and 30 cal are 50+ foot lbs different with everything else being the same. Well done guys.
Actually, I had to dial the 30 UP to make the whole 70fpe.
-Donnie
I don't think I have ever subscribed to a channel faster. We need more physics discussed with our cool toys and tools!
Right on! Glad to have you, and glad you dig what we do.
-Donnie
The equation for drag force is air pockets the amount of water in each individual subject matter that would be blood bone flesh and Gristle not to mention fat versus the solids for bone it would be the fats for tomorrow and the calcium for the surrounding bone itself for the gristle it would be the calcium protein combo and for the muscle it would be the protein for the blood the protein is almost ridiculously small for blood I usually use pure water fluid resistance times two.
Anyways after doing two pages worth of math in my head for each projectile consideration I'm coming up with a significant difference in penetration with the 25 caliber and a significant difference in blood force trauma with the 30 caliber. My theory is that the 30 caliber is going to destroy the shoulder blade and rib bone doing significant damage to a lung and most likely the heart. The 25 caliber will do extreme damage through and through as long as it does not hit the shoulder blade or a rib however striking both will stop the 25 caliber short of the heart. My subject is a 300 lb swine.
all of it makes sense, same energy, more surface area on the 30 cal equals more drag, so wouldnt penetrate as far as the smaller 25cal.
How does the long range ballistic coeficient differences between the two calibers effect accuracy and penetration?
For a lethality test, cavitation must also be measured. How does that compare between the two?
They both have their usage. For me, on a broadside shot through the lungs and heart, I'd take the .30. It will drop more energy within the channel and a more likelihood of collapsed lungs and heart which in turn would be a more efficient kill. On a front headshot, a 25 would travel through the brain and into the spinal cord which would drop it in it's tracks. That being said, both will put a hog down. For a hog over 75lbs, I'm opting for .357-.50 .. Happy Shooting
Maybe the AEA Zeus .72 600+ gn @ 900fps.
With air I only hunt small game which I categorize as raccoon, woodchuck, skunks, and then down from there , my largest caliber in air is .25 and a 33.95 jsb going 925-975 fps to the Noggin or lung/ heart shot to any of those animals and they have dropped in their tracks, haven't had the opportunity on a coyote yet with air but I'm more than confident in my shooting that if I got 1 within 50 yards I could drop him, much more than that I probably wouldn't take the shot too much power loss passed 50 with a pellet I'd possibly go 70 yards with the right slug but that's about it, further than that imo you need a larger caliber carrying more ft lbs of energy , as I've hunted these same animals with a 22lr and 22wmr and have seen how a not so perfect shot doesn't provide a humane quick kill , of course we all want to be as ethical a hunter as possible even with pest animals of course, I've found with birds a lot of people prefer .177 myself I like my .22 flashpup or my Beeman r1 in .20 a little more of a challenge , I live next door to a farm so nothing pleases me more than seeing a European starling fall from a tree LOL I hate them damn flying greasy rats,
@@bryandorie_USNVet Overkill for a hog.
I agree. With an airgun, you should be shooting close range anyways. Headshots all the way with a .25. I wouldn't risk a broadside shot on a deer with a .25.
Good video. Penetration is important but so is wound channel. Both go together to affect a clean kill shot.
No hostility here. But (you know there had to be a but) the projectiles are made of the same material. The projectiles ductility has to be considered compared to the targets resistance to deformation and desired depth of penetration to adequately predict its performance on a given target. I would like to see testing with projectiles of various hardness at the same velocity. (for penetration testing)
It could very well be ,in a hunting or defense situation , that the .30, while not going as deep into the target may have distributed its energy in a way that was more effective compared with deeper penetrating projectiles of a smaller diameter ,made of the same soft lead. That extra momentum and increased frontal area ,(that increases the resistance to penetration ,) is what knocks thing down . It also makes a broader wound channel that is less likely to close behind the projectile. It really depends on exactly what one desires to achieve with the projectile’s terminal performance.
Great vid. 👍
We need affordable pellet cast and swage molds to be produced in this country so we can play with different lead alloys.
You want to get right on that Don?😁👍
There’s a Vietnamese fellow that has come up with what looks like an effective system made from plates of steel. Feel free to root around in my playlists about DIY homemade airgun pellets it’s in there somewhere.
We’ll carried test…congrats!!!
Just wondering about Impact vs Penetration ???
So the.25 is the sweet spot really cool!
It just proves that the 30 cal is more efficient and dumps its energy much quicker than the 25 cal