Why The Federation Would Never Defeat Tholians in a war
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The biggest challenge in a conflict between the two is that their definition of habitable planet is so different, that neither side would have any desire to control planets held by the other. A world hospitable to humanoid life would be a frozen death world to Tholians, and a pleasantly toasty world for Tholians would be a nightmare Hellscape to humanoids. If anything I think the Tholians are probably just always terrified of the ice people all around them. They got the answer to the question "are we alone in the universe," and the answer horrified them.
"Winter is Coming..."
"Stay the fuck away from us you frozen meat bags!" -Tholians, probably.
I would agree. But if I may pose a question. That is, if either the Tholians or Star Fleet thought a particular planetary system or Star system would be needed for future endeavors. Terraforming is a capability of advanced civilizations. Would there possibly be a disagreement, to one or the other obtaining these systems?
So a Tholian, a Breen and a Ferengi walk into a bar ...
@@godpopov The Ferengi leaves with most of their money. :)
As Zapp Brannigan said, “We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like. But we can assume this. They stand for everything we don’t stand for. Also they told me you guys look like dorks.”
"Wave after wave of my own men.."
Stop exploding you cowards!
Zapp: What's your name?
Hugh Man: Hugh Man, sir.
Zapp: Now that's a name I can trust.
THEY look like dorks!
Champagin
Apparently, relations between the lFederation and the Tholians had improved to the point where Capt. Sisko was able to gift his fiance with Tholian silk on Deep Space Nine.
That or he had acquired it on the black market. Thanks Quark.
YES !
He got it directly from the Tholian ambassador. He may have had to share a family recipe, though.
SPIDEE THOLOIAN, SPIDER THOLOIAN RADIOACTIVE SPIDER THOLOIAN 😂
@@veleriphon While it's a nice thought, I'm not sure what human food wouldn't be reduced to ash near a Tholian, and I doubt their diet is anything like humans' either.
I think the Tholians would be a good ally, or at least a trading partner. They don't require the same worlds most other life forms need to survive, which takes away one major cause of war, and they would thrive on planets like Venus. Let them build mining colonies on Venus in exchange for letting the Federation build colonies on planets in their space that they can't use because the temperature is too low.
You'd think this would apply to the Breen too. But xenophobes gonna xenophobe
I do not think it would be the wisest idea to allow the Tholians, who are not a member of the Federation or even an ally to have an enclave/colony on the planet closest to the Capital of the Federation. Astro-politically it is akin to having a suburb of Warsaw be an enclave to Belarus or a suburb of Seoul be an enclave to N. Korea. It's too much of a security risk.
However on some of the Y-class & M-class border worlds on each side, some trading treaties can be made.
@@VVeremoose ; Breen inhabit the same planets types Humans, Andorians, and various other UFP species do.
Tholian silk is a superior product. Some trade does occur.
@@khyron666ok8 Indeed! It would be spun silicon!
Honestly I think the Tholians should have been a 'fourth' race that the Federation has to regularly deal with since it is the MOST alien of anything they encountered, and that includes the Changelings.
For me, them and the Gorn. Maybe throw in the Hydrans and Lyrans while we're about it.
The AI or practical effects of the 60s-90s wouldn't have allowed it, they could be brought back as an antagonist in Discovery or Picard(or better in Strange New Worlds/ Lower Decks), but that doesn't seem to be the direction the newer shows are going.
@@musicalhistory4392 I was thinking the same thing about how Spock described the true appearance of the Kelvans in “By Any Other Name” after mind probing the one lady. He said they were enormous and had many tentacles, each of which their minds could control for a different function. It couldn’t be done in the sixties without looking tacky, but I’d sure love to see someone make a convincing enough artistic interpretation of how they’d really look.
i kno weirdest star trek alien:tos stone people in savage curtain, insect xindi, non corporeal thing that impregnate deanna troi, and of course horta, tribbles, crystalline entity, star jelly, edo.god, caretaker, coffee nebula, the goo on y-planet, rumpelstiltskin aliens.
Tell me if i forgot your favourite =)
what about the medusans?
I want to see Tholian family life. Mom and dad, and junior, those lovable polygons of light and shadow.
Perhaps the tholians kept the family friendly starships that starfleet regressed on. Why would O'Brien or other crew with family want to go back to no family on starships? Once you know it's possible, there would be riots trying to take away.
I'd like to point out that the federation would likely hand over any planets the tholians wanted since most would be uninhabitable to the federation
The two races certainly would not be fighting over colony worlds, considering the immensely different habitats. Only the resources of asteroid fields would be of common interest. Systems dominated by 'Hot Jupiters' or close stellar orbiting rocky worlds like Mercury or Venus would be great for Tholians. I could even see a Tholian embassy on Venus.
Tholians might be able to "terraform" planets into biomes their species find habitable.
They might assign "inhabitable" planets to servitor or ally species.
They might need/want valuable resources or extra territory, regardless of environment.
They might annex planets for military advantage (or for a denial strategy), regardless of environment.
They might even have alien rationalizations which are incomprehensible to other starfaring species.
Those planets could still be rich in minerals, such as dilithium that both sides need, it's not just about habitation.
@@MrClobbertime
True, but that's where trade and leases would come in.
Federation, "You have planets, rich in valuable minerals, that are inhospitable to you, and would require major investment to set up mining operations. These planets are habitable to us. Allow us to construct a mining colony and we will provide you with X% of what we produce. If we come across any planets in our systems that are naturally habitable to you and have resources, you are welcome to set up a mining colony of your own provided you give us that same X% of what you produce."
If there was a reason for the federation or the Tholians to need to expand into each others space (which is very unlikely), because they have such diametrically apposed living conditions, it would seem easier to work out a complex border of enclaves and exclaves to allow access to habitable worlds or the worlds they want.
Yes, exactly, why could there not be some integration instead of a war?
Tholians in DS9 seemed quite willing to trade and travel deep into Federation space. If humanoids would take the planets that are 'temperate' (let's call Andorians to Vulcan planets 'temperate', given how much the Tholians need) and the Tholians will take those hell-worlds. It could actually be beneficial for all. Tholians might be very territorial, but if they just care about those hell-worlds and not those 'temperate worlds', then.. it's fine.
To expand on that, the tholians can mine the demon worlds cheaper than the feds and the feds can mine the temperate planets better and cheaper, have a mutual trade agreement to keep everyone happy. And i have a feeling tholians dislike environmental suits as much as we would. So split it down the middle
That would seem logical. But Tholians are very Territorial.
There are federation races that can inhabit class L worlds like the Sheliak. I would expect they would want to claim those planets first for terraform adjustment. I dont think their needs are as extreme as the Tholians but they are relatively similiar and would probably look at a Class L world the way humans of the next gen era look at Mars type worlds...
@@roberts.1050
Except that Sheliak aren't a Fed species. The Sheliak Corporate was an independent nation which didn't really interact with anyone outside of EXTREMELY over-engineered treaties designed to cover any potential forseeable issues - effectively an entire species of corporate lawyers.
The Tholian way of thinking is "Let's you and him fight." They are, according to The Tholian Web, renowned for their punctuality, but they are also highly pragmatic. There might be border skirmishes, but a full scale war? Not bloody likely.
With the Tholians and Federation member species both living in dramatically different environments, I can envision both of them 'overlapping' territory and establishing a presence in what is ostensibly the same space. Neither one can realistically gain anything from the places where the other resides but they can communicate and trade.
If not for one side being violently territorial in the common "human" sense, it could have made for an excellent setup for a TNG episode exploring the nature of "territory" in an empty void.
Places to live are quite different and conflicts on that basis would be unlikely. Access to resources for raw materials on the other hand.
For instance, asteroid mining. The environment is quite hostile to both, so that's a wash. But the metals and materials is also quite valuable to both. Plus mining the asteroids provides the needed raw materials with zero environmental impact to their respective inhabitable planets.
Unless the Federation also have species that requires Demon Worlds to live on / colonize, the Tholians would be perfect neighbors if it is just about habitation. The Fed and Tholians can even set up planet exchanges where Tholians can settle on Demon Worlds in Federation territories while the Fed settlers can live on garden worlds in Tholian territories. They can negotiate trade deals from these planets and defensive or semi-open boarder deals (Open boarders to access those star systems only, I can't imagine Tholians agreeing to have open boarders into their core systems).
I would not be surprised if the tholians and some federation members actually shared some star systems. Maybe going as far as having defense agreements.
If the Tholians are actually that pragmatic they might realize how easy it is to 'terraform' those garden worlds into something more useful!
The Dominion made a non aggression pact with the tholians when they startet to bring troops to the alpha quadrant. At the same time they made this pacts with the romulans and miradorn, also two powerfull and by time agressive species. That means a lot to the tholians power and technology.
They wanted to isolate the federation and klingons because to them they were the biggest threats. Federation in power and Klingons in their stubbornness that they would always fight. Knowing the Klingons would look for any excuse to go to war. They took advantage of it. They started a war between the Klingons and Federation. When that ended they made their move. Making non aggression packs with species that could tip the power scale back into the federations corner. It wasn't just their power alone it was the Federations power and what they represented that was the threat. If they picked fights with species that didn't care for the Federation but you throw the first punch enemy of my enemy situation. This isn't smart tactical move. I think it speaks more to how they viewed them as weaker species than the combined Federation. They were viewed as easier targets. Otherwise they would have tried to start conflicts with other species like they did with the Federation and Klingons.
@@jasondiend4248 that was Glows point. There'd be no reason for a non-ag pact unless the Tholians had decent power and tech
@@richjordan6461 My point is they doesn't matter if they had the tech and power to help. It is more they didn't want to fight a war on multiple fronts. When you spread your resources thin even a weaker enemy can beat you. The dominion were at a disadvantage from the start. The only reliable entry point for conflict to the alpha quadrant was the wormhole. It was a literal choke point. The maquis would be a threat to them on that front. The last thing they wanted was any real military no matter big or small to join the fight and back up the federation and klingons.
The Miradorn definitely were not a powerful species. They did not control alot of planets and there tech wouldn't be much better than the federations.
Im with you on that, the Tholians are usually shown to be pragmatic if insular. They have formal diplomatic relations with the federation, IE (Sisko was able to get Tholian silk as the ambassador owed him a favor). Both sides have much to potentially lose and little to gain.
The Tholians are one of those (highly underused) species perfectly suited to a movie appearance, where the budget can allow it.
It's so true. What's amazing is that the Tholians were created in Season 3 of Star Trek, the cheapest season. A good story and wonderful execution prevailed on 'The Tholian Web'.
tbh its best they stay underused makes them more interesting unlike how the borg went where they became a real mystery and threat to something you could kill with plot
@@CristySFM1234 The problem with the Borg is that the writers took too many liberties in how they actually worked.
As much as I loath the show ENTERPRISE, they did the Tholians justice. Way better than I thought they would. They didn't resort to their head being a mask worn by a Human, they still thread webs of energy in space and they're very very VERY non-humanoid.
I'm reading the Star Trek Fifth Year comic right now and the Tholian character they got on the Enterprise is just previous. It's even wearing the spacesuit Kirk and crew wore in the Tholian Web.
How can a Tholians or Hortas can serve on a regular starfleet vessel is improbable cuz of temperature difference. A starfleet vessel with these species would have to be very hot, too hot 🔥 for humans even in spacesuits, which could melt on weather of such suit! We can make peace, have exchange & trade, and maybe ally with Tholians & Hortas, but we would need new separate starfleet vessels.
@@robertaguilar2124 There are actually books where starships are customized to suit certain species, including the Horta.
I think one point to add to this, in terms of why this is such an unlikely contest, is that the Tholians are reputed to be quite pragmatic. Given the “no sides win” nature of this conflict it’s unlikely they’d really even bother. So that first shot may easily never be fired as the Tholians gauge their enemy and decide it’s not really worth it.
The point is "What if" not put up road blocks. I mean expand that. Perhaps there is some "reason" for it. Perhaps there was a political accident, perhaps there was a time device the Federation took was not willing to give back so they went to war. I mean use your imagination. Not being mean just saying sometimes its up to you the viewer/reader to fill in the gaps.
@@aurorajones8481 I don’t think this is a “what if” scenario, but rather a compounding on established lore as to why this is so unlikely to happen. My point was to add another reason why as I didn’t pick up a big “what if” vibe from Lore in this video. What’s more is I point out what I point out because it’s part of the lore around this race. The Tholians are not warmongers like the Klingons and the aren’t as predatory as the Romulans or Cardassians. If you’re going to give a good “what if” then it helps to understand the people involved, and in this case the people involved would require a lot of provocation to act.
That said, if you want reasons the Tholians could attack the Federation it’s not hard to imagine. They are highly defensive and ruthless when pushed. An enemy of the Federation, like the Romulans could start a war with relative ease using misinformation to direct Starfleet ships into conflict with Assembly vessels. They could also commandeer Starfleet vessels to attack and provoke a war. Even repeating what Valdore did in “Enterprise” to an extent to provoke skirmishes could incite something. I think the best thing to inspire a war though would be to attack the Tholian homeworld and stage it to look like a Federation attack. Given a lot of established lore about the Tholians I think this would definitely be the most offensive thing that could be done to get them to take that first shot. The same way that spiders must often be left with no option to feel safe in order to get them to stand and fight.
The Tholians are frigging awesome and I am glad you are bring them to the spot light. Also The Tholians and Q Interaction? I feel like they would show wisdom and would request for knowledge and wouldn't shun an opportunity to analyze them.
Q would take the form of one of those squeaky bugs and reek havoc in their silly Assembly!!
@@funzjag Or he would take their form to screw with the Federation during their war...
@@michaelanuradha-khufu4867 That is definitely a possibility. I could see Q (the one portrayed by John D Lancie) being a bit put off by the insect like appearance of the Tholians and helping the Federation, though.
@@funzjag
I don’t know if the insectoid shape would bother Q so much, especially after naming all the other species he has transformed into. He doesn’t even prefer the humanoid shape, it’s just the one that Q recognized as comfortable and non threatening to humans. The only time Q spoke well of the human form was when he almost died to an energy cloud to another Q and when he was buttering up Janeway.
I could be wrong, of course. Q could just be lying, which was always common practice.
@@nicholashernandez4611 I thought that I detected a bit of distane when Q threatened to turn his son into various things. I recall that he mentioned some sort of worm. I could be mistaken. This would have occurred on Voyager.
The Tholians could probably find several worlds suitable for them, or they could 'Pyroform' the worlds they need to their liking
Scorched Earth Policy?
How realistic is it to nudge a planet a million miles closer to a sun or enable more energy from the planetary core to seep into the atmosphere?
The old Star Trek rpg by Decipher (I think it was the pdf-only Mirror Universe book) had a section on the Tholians. The most interesting theory, was that the Tholians exist simultaneously in both the prime and mirror universes, and can't easily distinguish identical humanoids from different universes. This is why they're so cagey about their borders: From their perspective, they've seen identical entities simultaneously sign treaties and attack them. It's safer to not trust anyone so duplicitous.
The RPG by Decipher is not what I would classify as old. That came later. The original RPG was by FASA, THAT would be the OLD one.
I suggest reading the "Star Trek: Vanguard" series to learn more about the Tholians.
As for Star Fleet defensive measures, I suggest reading "Wagon Train to the Stars", book #1 of the "Star Trek: New Earth" miniseries.
Wagon Train - WAS the original inspiration for S.T.
The tholians are well-organized strong and powerful. I believe any war between them and the Federation would be a bloodbath.
Very interesting - when Enterprise went to the Mirror Universe it was good to see that they kept to a lot of the established information on the Tholians from the previous series.
If I recall correctly, back in the old Star Fleet Battles games they came up with their own backstory for the Tholians. In that setting, they were kind of a Battlestar Galactica style refugee fleet - their empire had been overthrown by a former subject race, they'd been almost wiped out and the survivors had fled. The group in SFB had headed to the Milky Way from their home galaxy in hopes of shaking off their pursuing enemies, and when they got here seized a resource poor area located between the Klingon and Romulan empires (different map layout in that setting) as their new home, the Holdfast.
In some of the scenarios they were later involved in a major galactic war where they worked with the alliance of the Federation, Gorn, Kzinti (Mirak in the computer game version) and Hydrans against the Klingons, Romulans and Lyrans - but as co-belligerents rather than actually joining the alliance (the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend, but we could assist each other for now). Even when in dire need of assistance to defend the Holdfast, they only allowed the Gorn and Kziniti (who didn't share a border with them) to send ships into their territory to assist - not the Federation as they were a touch paranoid about their most powerful neighbour.
It's interesting that the mirror universe Tholians can erect their net in seconds (Enterprise), while in the prime universe (TOS) it took far longer. ;-)
And, they could do that a century EARLIER.....
The Enterprise (NCC 1701) took out at least one of their ships (maybe two?) when they first started to erect the web. Possibly that slowed them down?
There were also a lot more Tholian ships in Enterprise (only 2 in TOS), and the NX-01 was a lot smaller than the Constitution-class.
It might have had something to do with the interspace area that they were in.
Ah, that's a good thought. ;-)
Tholian combat capability was well defined back in 1979, to present, in the tactical board game Starfleet Battles.
@Nines not completely cannon, but enoigh to be useful here
@Nines also lovingly called SPREADSHEETS IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAACE
Should have been canon because: 1) it came before most everything else, and 2) the game was based on the Star Fleet Technical Manual which was licensed by Paramount.
@@mikearmstrong8483 Yeah, I fully agree with you on your facts, and my knowledge alone. But according to other Trek Snobs. "It's it's own thing, and therefore not even considered Alpha, Bata or even Zebra Cannon to them and their Ilk. Pfft! Jacklegs.
I would just point out that when Spock shoots that Tholian ship, she goes down from one hit. They do reference a Tholian Conflict so we have fought once and are here to tell the tale.
The Feds would win. The thesis (and title) of this video is dead wrong. You and I are correct. And The Federation is at least as large as Tholian space.
@@Timelord2001 The video title (as elaborated on by the video) isn't that the Feds would lose, just that the fight would end in a truce without ultimate victory. (IE, the Feds would not conquer Tholia). Largely because it simply wouldn't be worth the trouble and the Tholians and Federation would negotiate a truce long before that.
Assuming that Tholian technology did not advance since then, that those ships were their capital class and not say, their version of border patrol corvettes, or if its their main warship, they do not have a lot more of them. All these sound like a lot of assumptions, where even one being wrong would spell a disaster for the federation.
@@Timelord2001 I would say that one of Lore’s weak spots is that he doesn’t recognize the inherent disadvantage of a defensive posture in ST war. The Federation would almost certainly start from a defensive posture which would be bad. SF also has it’s swings toward pacifism, ala the Galaxy class starship, which might also put the Federation in a bad spot. Lastly, the funny thing about war is that you never know how they’ll go.
@@_Muzolf See my other reply, essentially, I agree.
Adding onto the fact neither side would gain much we have to look at the kinds of worlds Tholians can live on. They would die on a beautiful world like Earth and require a "Demon world" of insane surface temperatures to not require a suit. All there would be to be gained is territory, and I think I remember reading somewhere that the Tholians are of one accord across multiple dimensions. They don't exactly need to expand much in this universe.
Something tells me the Tholians would love Venus, though.
Venus would be where their embassy would be located if the federation and their assembly reached an accord.
I’m not that familiar with the concept of the Tholians existing across dimensions, but had a similar thoughts about their habitat compared to the environments that most Federation species prefer. Given the differences in environmental needs, I don’t see why the Federation and the Tholians couldn’t occupy overlapping territories- the Federation would occupy class M worlds and the Tholians would occupy class Y worlds. They might need similar resources for ships and space habitats, but I don’t get the impression there’s a shortage of either in the Star Trek universe. I suppose their technology might require dilithium (even that might be able to be minded from class Y planets that the Federation wouldn’t want to bother with), but other than that, there shouldn’t be much reason for competition between the 2 parties.
@@NeverDoneEver I like this. Pragmatic. But I doubt that humans would allow cohabitation. Unless the Tholians joined the Federation. And why wouldn't they? Even the Japanese, perhaps the most xenophobic society on Earth, understand the value of allies.
That being the case, it seems like there should actually be little reason for a border at all. Federation member species and Tholians could share the same spatial territory without actually intruding on each other's space at all.
But that's a perfect world, where the Tholians aren't rather xenophobic.
EDIT: I see someone else posited the very same thing I just did, lol. Anyway... it's probably true the Federation also would be a little reluctant to allow such without the Tholians agreeing to join the Federation. If only because a non-member species so close to multiple homeworlds IS a potential security threat.
Tholians are refugees from the Andromeda galaxy. They fled after a war with the Andromedins which is a race that controls energy with thought. Of course this is based on the Starfleet Battles games which had them as one of the options to use for battles.
Has anyone ever noticed how McCoy's shirt looks shinier then the rest.
Probably Teflon coated so all the blood, pus and bodily fluids are easily wiped off. What with him being a barbaric savage using stones and sticks (per 24th century sensibilities. 😋)
Yes lol
Now I can not watch TOS the same. Ass!!!
Very campy, which fits.
I HAD noticed that, actually. 👍
why would Tholian physiology be a disadvantage?
Are class M planets more common than class N? Just glass the M class planets and build on exo-venus instead.
Yeah if anything what we've seen throughout our own universe, the Tholians would have a definite advantage in amount of planets they can exist on compared to the Terrans.
You are correct, it's a disadvantage only for the war, there is no reason. It will be better for both sides to cooperate. Tolians let the federation know about M planets and the federation do the reciprocal. Even if its in the same solar system.
@@jaimeduncan6167 I certainly agree that the fact that both "species" have significantly different ideas about what constitutes "prime real estate" should definitely make peaceful negotiation about expansion feasible. The counterpoint is that Tholians are described to us as extremely territorial, so while they technically could potentially share a star system, building on different planets, the Tholians probably wouldn't be willing to.
3:32 What a beautiful shot, the smooth hull and the whiteish-blue beams.
I'd love to see your spin on Star Fleet Battles lore
Tholians would lose the same way everyone else does. Somebody in engineering would figure something out at the last minute. They would deflect the thingamajig off the whatzit and reverse the flow of the doohickey. Problem solved.
Don't forget they'll reverse the ionizing polarization of something too
Or you know, in the twenty or thirty minutes it takes the Tholians to build their web they could like, move.
AKA plot armor.
Sounds like an STD plot vehicle.
5:59 - I suppose this is the best reason to consider canonically, as to why the Tholians don’t go to war with the Federation. They seem highly advanced, so it stands to reason that they’re a highly intelligent species. Perhaps they’ve already thought many steps ahead of the Federation.
So maybe there is no present threat from the Tholians. But it would be a graceless timeline, which gave them enough of an advantage to see war with the Federation as worthy of the cost.
I'd say it depends on how the Tholians use swarm tactics. The Federation doesn't seem to do well against adversaries that tend to swarm their enemies (IE: Klingons, Dominion)
In case of Dominium, at the begining of the war they had technologycal advantage over Federation. Fed had better warp engines but Dominium wepons and shields.
Yes Starfleet could done better but they dont expect any major conflict until Borg incurtion. Even after that they want build one fleet not 20, needed in Dominium war.
Hive minds are a definite problem for the UFP.
@@adrewadrew5860 The Dominion made a non aggression pact with the tholians when they startet to bring troops to the alpha quadrant. At the same time they made this pacts with the romulans and miradorn, also two powerfull and by time agressive species. That means a lot to the tholians power and technology so they are pretty sure good enough in tactics and war.
@@MyBrainGlows or they know that if they left Tolians they dont have to fight untill Federation fall. Look at Breen and what happen when theyir gimmick was counter. Tholians could be similiar.
I always preferred the ADB's history in SFB bookshelf games. The reason the Tholians wanted to be left alone, they were trying to lay low. They were renegades, ousted rulers, from the much larger Tholian empire. They were not interested in expansion or trade. While they had advanced technology they did not have the infrastructure to produce major war ships.
Yeah. Tholians in SFB were much more defensive than offensive. Once they establish a base, it's a tough nut to crack.
Also, in SFB, didn't they come from another galaxy and managed to use their webs to tow their homeworld with them? Imagine if they could improve that tech and use it to yoink people's planets.
Fascinating. So this Tholian Empire is a large distant thing with the Tholian Assembly a tiny rebel stronghold? Kinda like China and Taiwan?
The Tholians are the only none Humanoid Race in Star Trek i have seen and i think that makes them very special a specially since they are also one of or ARE the only none Humanoid Species to have a Large Empire.
The mother Horta : Am a joke to you?
Species 8472 will not be pleased
dont let the Xindi-Aquatics read that or they might switch sides ^^
Shout out to the Hydrans from Starfleet Command.
That gas cloud with a grudge against Q.
The discussion of plot elements here is just not where my head is at right now but, having come here, I couldn't help noticing the GREAT video quality of the parts from TOS-probably the best I've ever seen, and in fact it seems better than the shots from later series.
I found myself thinking I would NOT want to wear a shirt with the silky, shiny fabric like McCoy has.
Fascinating discussion
“Oh my! And I thought I was smoldering!” -Sulu, probably.
I would point out one other problem with the map, space is three dimensional. The Tholians could be just as far from the Federation center as the Klingons and Romulans, just above or below.
SPACE is three dimensional, the Milky Way Galaxy is NOT. Most of the stars align along a disk.
@@davidtucker9498 That disk is 10000 light years thick around Sol, which means still pretty 3 dimensional considering the speeds of ships in ST.
The was mention of a Tholian attack on a Federation base where Commander Riker's father was injured.
Lore I'll watch any Star Wars vs Star Trek work you do.
If it came down to time keeping, the Tholians would win because they're just so damn punctual! ⏰
As you say, the Feds would be able to keep the Tholians isolated and boxed in. People often seem to think the Feds can't claim to be a superpower unless they rule everything directly. Not so, you're already there if you can make it so that an aggressively anti-Federation foreign policy is a dead end.
I wonder if the Tholians have the technology to communicate with other Tholians in other universes that could in part explain their xenophobia just a thought .
Babylon 5 was originally a pitched idea to Paramount for a Trek spin-off. I have to wonder if the Tholians would have been in the series. I'm thinking they would work well as a Trek universe replacement for the Vorlons. Ancient, mysterious aliens that would have to wear encounter suits to move among other life forms. It could work.
Me thinks the 'Tholians' are a figment of Gene Roddenberry's imagination.
great video !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A very fair assessment for the TOS era Federation and Tholian Assembly, where both are introduced. I generally agree. It would be two superpowers banging at each other, with little actual gain to justify the heavy losses by both sides.
By the STNG/DS9/Voyager era, the Federation is flying genuine warships, and able to operate in task forces; mitigating Tholian web tactics, and likely reclaiming any territorial losses.
By the Star Trek Online timeline, the Federation's tactical and strategic capacity includes battle cruisers and juggernauts, and it won't be much of a contest. (Yes, I'm aware it's considered non-canonical, as it's 'only' a video game...but it's a game that's got dozens of 'Trek alumni, from every iteration of the franchise, and absolutely spectacular writing at points).
I consider STO era, about 30 years past Nemesis, to be People's Canon. That is; regardless of the official CBS/Paramount stance on the matter, the STO era and content is promoted to full canon.
By the 28th Century, the Tholians are part of the Galactic Union, which includes the Federation, and the Temporal Cold War is won, so the debate is moot.
Tholians vs. Borg, That is one fight I would love to see.
Major misunderstanding , the assumption is that space is more hostile to the Tholians then Humanoids , also that we have seen the major warships of the Tholians where it’s more likely that we have just seen small fast moving scout / patrol ships.
It also depends upon whether the different games (pencil, paper, and dice, as well as computer games) are being considered, too. If Star Fleet Battles is being used as a basis of comparison then the Tholians also have their former slaves who are rather aggressive who could be a spoiler if the Federation got in the way of that much older war. If it is the TV shows including the animated series only being considered then the Tholians are again at a greater disadvantage of 3:1 to start creating the Tholian web along with problem of time to construct said energy field. In both cases, the Tholian fleets are significantly smaller than the Federation and they would have more to worry about the other more aggressive governments’ respective fleets/aspirations, especially the Andromedans.
But what about the Breen!
Think of the Tholian Web as a reverse shield. They encapsulate a target with this field and their weapons would be modulated to fire through it yet block incoming fire like standard shields.
CZcams tried to sell me a mail order bride before I could watch your video.
Moods.
We used to play a lot of board games, a friend had another visit so we tried to get them into our games. He wouldn't play any of the games we played but he wanted to play a game he played a lot in college called Starfleet battles. None of us knew how to play, it's OK because he was going to teach us. What he did was pull out rules when they were to his advantage. Our last game he's telling me how to play Federation while he was Romulan and when play like he was saying he pulls out a rule that allows him to devastate my fleet. I was pointing out how I never would have done what I did if I knew that rule when my friend the Tholian tells me not to worry, he's got this. After the friend's friend pulled the surprise rule game the 1st time we played he read the rules. The Tholian weapon was they'd run shield between them so he rushed through the Romulan fleet devastating them. FF declares we're cheating because we're teaming up on him and leaves.
So, my head canon says through treachery the Romulans deal a devastating blow to Starfleet but the Tholians came in to rescue them chasing the Romulans out of the universe.
Tholian technology would be a great asset to the Federation's battles against the Borg.
“Intresting” is not a word.
You see that type of Tholian Net in the fourth volume of Robert Bliss' "Cities in Flight," "A Clash of Cymbals/The Triumph of Time (1959)" by the "Hevians"
The idea of regional boundaries makes sense if the two groups in question want the same types of resources. ie Humans and Romulans both need a similar type of biosphere so they want to exclude each other from intruding on their claimed area. It doesn't make as much sense for Humans and Tholians. Any planets or systems that they want are probably not particularly useful to humans and vice versa. Tholian and Federation territory could overlap without too much difficulty and in any system where there is a resource desirable to both trade or territorial concessions could probably be negotiated far more easily and cheaply than engaging in a major conflict.
They are making a web, captain Spock. Spock: hit them with everything we have
To be fair, that was a Fed HC vs much smaller Tholians. A scout or frigate would be evenly matched or over matched.
There is a canon conflict. Dr Pulaski and Kyle Riker were involved. Tholians had the advantage of surprise, and were a match for initial forces - which would have been Excelsiors and Constellations. Likely a small task force with an Ambassador-class or three is what ended hostilities.
Oh a Lorerunner mention. 💓
Also, the Tholians (according to STO and other sources) are very against time travel and anything to do with temporal changes and will intervene where they can if they are affected. So, they obviously have the ability to monitor the time line as well.
I just got that “maternal ancestor” joke lmao
Commander Loskene is renowned for her punctuality.
I believe the Tholians can do two things that are totally broken in lore they can contact the Mirror Universe , and they can time travel. I believe that they have time travelled to keep a stalemate with ANYONE. While looking at alternate universes and past and future decided to prevent as much interaction as possible.
@Nines Also I would like to point out that both the Tholians , and the Ferengi remain the same in alternate universes I mean in concept. You know what the Terran Empire reminds me of? The Cardassians . In fact I think the Cardassians would have been right on the spot with their lore for exploitation , and subjugation.
0:31 -- Or a Red Shirt guy to keep them on the straight and narrow.
I don't recognize the meeting scene at 2:19. Can anyone tell me from whence that was taken?
The way I picture the ST galaxy is with multiple level of species waging war over territories. On one level you have the humans, klingons, romulans, etc that wage war over M type planets and on another level you have species like the Tholians and Sheliak that wage war among themselves to control planets of another type. And since the two levels aren't interested in each other, they barely interact with each other, having some non agression treaties and basically giving all rights away for certain planets to the other group.
And with those multiple level, we could superpose the territories of each level over each other and see that they don't match at all similarly how predators territories in really different animal species hover over each other and have minimal impact on the delimitation of other species. Like, the territories of hyenas and lions clash with each other akin to humans and klingons but have no impact on the delimitation of african eagles territories.
So in the end, I like to imagine how sometime a Starfleet captain will detect an armed conflict between two species or an armada of ships move in space only to realize that those belong to another species level and so he might have a look at them but as far as anything goes, its just best to leave them alone.
I see others have noted that the difference in the planetary requirements of the two species would make them unlikely adversaries to control those planets but there is a small amount of planets which By terraforming could be useful for either side allowing for some point of conflict in the future
At least if someone would like to take that story path
Especially if the Natives on that planet could live in either of those conditions
sounds like an interesting story
I think it would make sense for the Tholians to form an alliance with Species 8472. Good video, Lore!
That's racist...
@@davidtucker9498 Racist are 8472, they believe in their biological superiority. It is not clear to me why they should associate with silicon spiders. In Star Trek Online the Tholians tries to use a crystalline entity, but we don't know if they did it or not, because the players prevents them from doing so.
In the old Star Fleet Battles game the Klingons had a border with the Tholians and used the Tholian Harassment fleet as a training ground like the Academy for Star Fleet
Thank you these guys need more attention! In star trek online their bridges are literally a octagon with consoles on the ceiling!!! Meaning commanders have two chairs! Plus it's all holo interface nothing to break!
The Tholians were also mentioned in Star Trek Nemesis when the Romulan senator Tal'aura left the Thaleron bomb in the Senate Chamber saying she had an appointment with the Tholian Ambassador. I'm guessing they must have had some kind of non-agression pact at least with the Tholians?
I wish we got to see more of the tholians. But overall yeah I think your spot on. Look at how they responded during the dominion war signing a treaty pretty quickly when it would have been pretty clear who would win a war at that time. The tholians seem to be a pretty logical race for the most part when it comes to combat at least.
The Vanguard series of books was pretty good coverage of the Tholians.
There was a brief conflict between the Federation and the Tholians in the 2350's, as mentioned by Riker's father Kyle in his discussion with Dr. Katherine Pulaski, from the TNG episode; "The Icarus Factor." It would be interesting to find out more about this conflict. Maybe it could be referenced by Riker or Picard in "Star Trek: Picard."
The TNG episode where Riker`s father visits established that he fought in the "Tholian wat" alongside Dr. Popaski
The Tholians just thought "Hey these ship class force fields can make great ship traps too." and then they realized they had the advantage of knowing the frequency the field was set to, letting their weapons fire on the trapped ship.
24th century star fleet would find a way to steal defeat from the jaws of victory.
another thing with them is the tholians are very resourceful and can adapt quickly, evidence (non cannon) comes from starfleet battles where the tholians were once a vast empire that dominated a whole galaxy only to lose their empire to a slave race that rose up 2 groups of tholians were made one to leave their galaxy with their home world (they took their planet with them) and used rifts to travel beyond their galaxy while the rest stayed behind to fight the rebellion eventually sending some of their own with new tech to the milky way (neo-tholians) the neo tholians used a new web making tech that allowed 1 ship to make a whole cage around a ship or even make flat panels as a secondary shield
the Renowned Tholian punctuality
Nice
The Tholian Holdfast was a group of survivors from the larger Tholian Empire. As such, they really would not have the resources for a war with anybody. The Tholians took the territory they currently occupy from primarily the Klingons (according to material I had). From the material I had, the Tholians were extremely isolationist. As survivors, they would not want to be found by their former subjugated races. Again from the materials I had, the Tholians Empire collapsed in a massive revolt. I personally have wondered what amazing races could defeat them in battle. Would they have a weapon called a Web Cutter?
If the Tholians were giving Starfleet a seriously difficult time, the Klingons and Romulans would definitely take advantage of the situation. TOS era Klingons and Romulans would never pass up an opportunity to bully the Federation.
Hadn't really thought about it but 2280s starfleet was a military organization. The Miranda class was a ship of that time, about the same size as a constitution class, bigger in volume actually and more well armed. It could even be called a warship of that Era. Then they all get pulled out of mothballs nearly a century later and upgraded to fight the dominion. A century old warship is better than no warships while starfleet began making its first warships again due to the borg. Though, they probably didn't expect a war so soon with a major power, first the klingons breaking their treaty then the dominion and cardassians. Kind of makes the use of the Miranda and excelsior classes feel a bit different after that realization. They were the best warships they had since they've been focused more on science and exploration for a century. Their new warships were just coming off the assembly lines and weren't even sure they'd be optimal for the job. Probably why they had more one off designs.
The tholian weapon seems to work as a polarized shield projector.
Neelix: Everything at the Dinner was going fine until we served the Jello...
Hell yah! Hot crystal spider action!
Love tholians!
Any relation to the shadows of Babylon 5???
@@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain No, tholians are too hot to handle.
And also sharp, on behalf of them being made of organic crystals.
Don't forget Tholians also have unique abilities in space/time manipulation and could rig some sort of distortion field in the border areas if they feel sufficiently threatened.
Every show should have Lorerunner on their staff.
Just a guess: the Tholians tune their weapons to the same frequency of their shield
Why the Federation would never win a war with the Tholian's
Commander Archer Of The Terran Empire: And I took that personally.....
The Tholians seem almost Vulcan like but with an occasional temper outburst.
I fought them in STO, the Tholians would go down in days.
STO starfleet is a such a different beast I can’t disagree. As xenophobic and opportunistic as the tholians are, the federation has just been in a permanent war economy/mentality for so long that the tholians really wouldn’t stand much of a chance.
Agreed, crystal species are to easy to kill lol
They're also not terribly impressive in Starfleet Academy: Starship Bridge Simulator for SNES.
@@johntumahab323 agree
It seems like they require such different environments there would be little reason for conflict. Diplomacy would likely not be about colonization, but maybe about other mutually desired resources. Then again, if one wants to write a story, it's not that hard to make up a reason.
The web looks big enough to trap two ships. Maybe three. So a fleet of them could in theory disable the entire fleet from star fleet even if the numbers were 3:1
I see their webs being similar to the Breen drainers and I always got the impression on Ds9 that the Breen gave quite an advantage to the Dominion.
Are there any new stories about the time of Kirk and his crew now?
Wars advance tech. A tholian war would likely see the federation building more combat orientated ships, investing more in dedicated warships, investing in tech and weapons to directly counter webs.
The possibility exists that the federation might even come up with their own "web" for use with planetary blockades.
When the war ended, the federation would likely pull back some or most of the ships on that border to a more central location. Possibly mothballing them, but more likely using them for combat and military training, in a position to redeploy this fleet to which ever border flairs up...
TOST which season and episode was this