Iconography, Symbolism, and Meaning (w/ Jonathan Pageau)
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- čas přidán 3. 07. 2024
- This video is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. For 10% off your first month, use the link, www.faithfulcounseling.com/gos...
In this video I'm joined by Orthodox Iconographer, podcaster, and public intellectual, Jonathan Pageau to explore iconography, symbolism, and meaning. We tackle questions about how to interpret ancient texts, avoiding chronological snobbery, and how to move past our time's crisis of meaning. We also explore some of Jonathan's personal story, how he got into iconography, and what led him to the Orthodox church. Of course, we also talked about patterns and how to read the Bible while paying attention to patterns as well as seeing patterns in the world. One of my favorite questions we explored was, what's the line between seeing patterns and conspiracy theories?
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This video is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. For 10% off your first month, use the link, www.faithfulcounseling.com/gospelsimplicity
When Jonathan was talking about the passive vs active participation in stories it reminded me of walking out of the movies as a kid and feeling like I had acquired the super power of the hero in the movie. Of course I didn’t because it was passive interaction, but when I enter the church and actively participate in the life of Christ, I do leave as a different person. By the grace of God I am changed and through Christ’s love, I’m able to become more like Him. Thank you for this great video!
Brilliant comment
Yup!
Thanks, Garrett. That was illuminating.
Jonathan is really helping people understand that the world is full of invisible realities, and he is reenchanting the modern mind. I have been following him for a long time. I love that he remains very ecumenical in his dialogue.
You worded that so well.
"he is helping people understand that the world is full of invisible realities."
Well said!
Ecumenism is extremely dangerous. However, I think Pageau does a great job dialoguing and not stepping over the line into ecumenism heresy.
@@MrWesford ok
@@MrWesford What definition of ecumenism do you find dangerous, and if only the one I suspect, do you think it's wise to tar both with the same brush?
Love Pageau's critique of suburbs and how it represents the crisis in meaning. I grew up in an affluent all-white suburb, and just about all the teens listened to gangster rap...why? It gave us meaning and story, albeit an inauthentic one. Now as an adult I live with my family in a rural community and the culture and sense of meaning are noticeably different. In my current town, we have a downtown and unique aspects to our community in which we take pride...no kids in the suburbs take pride in their strip mall.
Me too. It reminds the set of critiques Sir Roger Scruton (the conservative British philosopher) makes on the architectural crisis surrounding the hubris of the concept of “function” over the concept of “beauty”. G.K. Chesterton has a pretty similar critique. They are all correct and you too, brother.
@@masterchief8179 May he rest in peace! Sir Roger Scruton was my first introduction into true Conservative thought, as opposed to the conservative inc. that I was accustomed to. It was a real eye-opening experience to hear him talk about truth and beauty in the civic space instead of tax cuts and "rights."
I have to shamefully admit I have yet to read any of Chesterton's work beyond quotes and other people summarizing his thought. Any suggestions for a work of Chesterton's with which to start?
Based and wise
After returning to Jesus Christ three years ago, I spent the past three years going between denominations and being non-denominational before I eventually found my home in Orthodoxy. Glory to God! God bless all the followers of Christ here, regardless of their denomination. May Christ be with all of you.
Wow, Jonathan Prague’s explanations on patterns and hierarchy finally clicked for me in this conversation. My mind is buzzing and am captivated with the idea of meaning being conveyed in architecture through the use of patterns and hierarchy.
I’m so glad to hear that!
See Pamela Briggs MA (contact through FB)... her work has all been Abstract Image for a few years. Trained in Iconography by Aiden Hart in the 1990's, movement between Byzantine pattern and Iconography has been her path within her creative life since then. Paradoxically there is Pattern in opposite patter. Reversing a pattern makes a smilar yet changed pattern. Illusion can be delusion.
Its Pageau not the capital of Czech Republic lol
What Jonathan spoke to at about 11:45 onwards in regards to how difficult it was to incorporate icons into ones life, I had a similar experience. I've always liked History as a subject and I had icons in my subconscious identifying them as "historical Christianity" which I seen in various books, or movies. When I finally accepted Christ, even though I was going to a non-denominational church at the time, I had the famous "Christ Pantocrator" from the Hagia Sophia as my profile pic on fb for a while. When I finally discovered Orthodoxy Christianity, it was like coming home.
Amen
I pray this convo will bring many converts into the Holy Orthodox Church.
Oriental Catholic Churches have all symbolisms and mysticism in its liturgy and ethos... Wasn't this very much part of Latin Church until Second Vatican Liturgical reformation??? Whatever Jonathan says is the patrimony of the Church.. Catholics and Orthodox alike
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Just discovered Jonathan Pageau yesterday and I'm absolutely knee deep in a CZcams binge. Fascinating, helpful, and coherent! A rare blend these days.
His channel is legit one of the best on CZcams IMO
If you liked him I gurentee you will also like the lord of spirit podcast
And effervescently joyful, right?!
Did you stay there for longer?:)
@@muadek2 Me too!
You got Jonathan Pageau!!! I am so very excited to see this. You're doing great, Austin, hope you are having a great summer!
Thanks!
Excellent summary of Jonathan's perspective. I am not Orthodox but I appreciate it very much. Meanwhile I remain on the far side of Protestantism. Thanks for being a thoughtful interviewer Austin.
Kudos to Austin for asking really smart questions.
Great closing remarks by Jonathan. It gave me an answer for the spiritual restlessness I experience whenever focus too much on worldly patterns. I need to fix my gaze so too speak so that I'm looking up towards God more often than down.
I had the same reaction.
Father Spyridon next, please
Who’s Father Spyridon?
yes, Father Spyridon!
I love your Orthodox interviews 🙂
Please interview Fr Panagiotis Papageorgiou about recent saints.
Is he the priest with Trisagion Films?
@@benjaminblakley9569 yes
Thanks, Austin, on picking a great topic about the symbolic and the imagetic dimension of the faith. Jonathan seems to be a nice guy! He is a very intelligent and likeable man.
As Pope St Gregory the Great (540-604) taught, images were means to understand the depths of the faith specially for the unlearned and illiterate. St Gregory explicitly ‘understood’ the iconoclastic zeal in the case of breaking images coming from his interlocutor in one of his letters, insisting on teaching we should not adore images (as pagans would do). Even so, he taught that it was permissible to make images, only not adoring them - that means, giving them the cult of “latria” (as in Greek):
_”And then, with regard to the pictorial representations which had been made for the edification of an unlearned people in order that, though ignorant of letters, they might by turning their eyes to the story itself learn what had been done, it must be added that, because you had seen these come to be adored, you had been so moved as to ORDER them to be BROKEN. And it must be said to them, If for this instruction for which images were anciently made you wish to have them in the church, _*_I PERMIT THEM BY ALL MEANS BOTH TO BE MADE AND TO BE HAD._*_ And explain to them that it was not the sight itself of the story which the picture was hanging to attest that displeased you, but the _*_ADORATION_*_ which had been _*_IMPROPERLY PAID_*_ to the pictures”_ (Pope Gregory the Great, ‘Letter to Serenus’, Bishop of Marseille, Book XI, Letter 13).
___________
If anyone likes the imagetic theory, I strongly recommend the book _”Heaven in Stone and Glass: Experiencing the Spirituality of the Great Cathedrals”_ by Bishop Robert Barron. He explains the deep meanings of the stained glasses, the light and darkness carefully produced, the meaning of Gothic depiction of labyrinths, the meaning of gargoyles in the outside of Gothic churches and many more topics - in light of the great patrimony of our faith.
God bless!
'Art of Eternity' by Andrew Graham-Dixon (3 parts) and 'Chartres Cathedral: A Sacred Geometry.' Anyone interested in this discussion, try to find those documentaries.
Pageau clips needs to get the last 5 minutes of this discussion!!!
Legit! Thanks!
Johnathan is a genius, and probably the best advocate for Christianity and Orthodoxy on youtube, if not in the world period.. At least for half baked intellectuals like me. He's taken so many of my intuitions and incomplete ideas and heightened them, fleshed them out in powerful ways. I'm really grateful for it all. Thanks.
My favorite brother in Christ. Forgive me, but we all know Jonathan is great because of Christ, he is blessed with insight.
Thank you, Jonathan. Keep up the great work!
I love this podcast. Thank you for keeping such an open mind.
One of the best of Jonathan videos. My first time on this channel and impressed with thoughtful questions and their progression and the interaction. Love these discussions and so thankful for the added color and layers of meaning from symbolism Jonathan has awakened.
Glad you enjoyed it! Welcome to the channel!
Wonderful talk. I always love listening to Jonathan.
LOVED THIS! Thank you both.
Great conversation, and really good questions. Thank you, I really enjoyed it and was edified.
Oh! Fr. Stephen DeYoung and Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick next on the Divine Council and the Valar!
Already have Fr. De Young on the calendar!
@@GospelSimplicity Amazing!!
@@GospelSimplicity Yesss!!!
@@GospelSimplicity Must see!
Fr. Stephen or Fr. Stephen?
Finally subscribed. Been watching for a while now. Really appreciate this one. Thanks for these conversations.
I am so happy when I realize how many souls you will save during your earthly life. I love the topics and this channel. God bless you! Viva Cristo Rei!
Wow. been listening and Studying JP's work for two years now. This has to be one of the top 10 interviews. Great questions..
Great video guys, thanks. I learned a lot from Jonathan's comments on meaning. Thank you Austin for doing this interview.
So glad you got Jonathan on your channel - so I could discover him! I will be checking out his channel
Austin, you asked many questions that I was thinking about in this interview. I started writing this comment midway through the video and then found the two of you discussing these exact points.
The idea that you must replace bad habits with good habits is something that I have been thinking about. To choose which habits to exchange you must have some type of plan or meaning behind the choice. I see a certain benefit in Orthodoxy and Catholicism with almost 'preset' habits, otherwise there are so many choices it is easy to be immobilized by all of the apparent options. Also seeing how you live life as training where certain actions are more beneficial, which is very biblical.
Glad that I could ask some of those questions!
Thank you for allowing us to see the world through Jonathan’s eyes. He’s such a thoughtful guest who is transforming the world through his art.
Truly my pleasure!
So great guys 🙏🏽thank you both
YES I've been waiting for this. Pageau is a mystic.
He is great but he is not a mystic (by his own words).
@@dionysis_ I'm still calling him a mystic
@@xaviorjimenez2227 as you please 🙂
@@xaviorjimenez2227 Orthodox Christianity is much more mystical in general than Western Christianity. Perhaps not in every way you could define “mystical”, but it does pre-date the enlightenment by 1500 years-whereas Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are both heavily steeped in enlightenment thinking.
Catholicism has its good share of mystics too. St. Hildegard of Bingen, St John of the Cross, St Theresa of Ávila. St Catherine of Siena. In general, apostolic Christianity (Orthodox and Catholic) is way more mystic.
I’ve listened to Jonathan for a long time but this explanation of meaning hit me harder than almost anything else has in years
This is going to be great.
Can't wait.
Hope you enjoy it!
Loved this discussion. Very helpful to my understanding of these complex concepts, of seeing the symbolic patterns in the life of the world which are leading humanity toward God, both individually and also collectively as one body of the church in time. Very clearly presented. Thankyou. 😌👍
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Oh, this is great! Two of my favorites!
Hope you enjoy it!
This conversation is so amazing!!!!
Thank you for understanding what Jonathan is talking about and dumbing it down for us :)
My pleasure!
Thank you Garrett for another thought provoking interview. I just finished watching The Petersen's new video "Down to the River to Pray", and I'm a little teary eyed. God Bless you and your loved ones
This is such a great video.
This is one of your best ones!! Have him on often!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for this message
So excellent. I'm especially grateful for your last question about keeping proper focus and balance.
Glad you appreciated that!
Two of my favorites together, thank you both!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great questions, great Interview!
Great interview!
Amazing conversation, thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
This was an excellent interview, and completely explained things I did not understand about the orthodox perspective.
Austin, thanks so much for this interview with Jonathan. It has been so, so informative. Jonathan brings a perspective to the table that is so desperately needed at present. Again, thank you both!!!
My pleasure!
I listened to this video almost 2 years ago and listened to it again today. I agree once you start seeing the world through meaning and symbols it it can be terrifying. Things become more real. Great video!
Would love to see a part 2 with Mr Pageau! You’re a great attentive listener and questioner, and do great follow-up questions with him
Thanks!
Great conversation, thank you for sharing!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks for this excellent interview. I had already listened to Jonathan a bit on this subject of the symbolic world and though it just feels so intuitively true it’s taking a while to fully sink in. This interview really helped me to get more of a grasp on it. By the way, I think an interview with Father Andrew Stephen Damick would be awesome!
Thank you for this.
My pleasure!
This is going to be great. It seems to me that your personalities are on very similar wavelengths. Looking forward to it!
Thanks! Hope you enjoy it!
Love this one! Pageau is so helpful, this was a great summary of his work, great questions, Austin!
Still got my fingers crossed for a Stephen De Young talk! 🤞🤞🤞
So glad! Your wish, Lord willing, shall come to fruition tomorrow😁
Can’t wait!
Hope you enjoy it!
Even better than I expected! Well done both of you gentlemen! I am so grateful for such thoughtful and thoughtful-provoking material. Thank you!
Symbolism is the unification of two ontological levels of being. Symbol is the thing itself. All language is symbolic, as it is the unification of our thoughts with the method in which we are communicating, typically words, whether spoken or written. And then that symbol is unites our thoughts with the thoughts of those we are communicating with, further uniting.
That's an excellent summary of symbolism Jonathan.
Amazing video
This was great - you guys are awesome.
Such a well conducted interview with truly eye-opening questioning and response. I want to hear more!
I'm so glad you enjoyed it!
@@GospelSimplicity You really did ask great questions Austin and pulled out interesting thoughts and threads
beautiful channel
Oh yeah. It's all coming together...
Very good interview! It is very hard to listen to Jonathan and not have at least one AHA! moment.
Everyone that hasn't done so yet should really check out his channel.
Excellent questions, great interview! I would love it if you could put a time stamp on your questions.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 The incarnation is the answer to the commandment! Lights on for me! 👍🏼
Jesus Christ took matter to himself, he divinized matter and revealed his likeness to us. We can therefore make images of his likeness
We, as Orthodoxy, cannot make images of God the Father, as we have no revealed image of him
I think that Ikea instructions are very pragmatic and meaningful.
And the story of making something from the instructions would be a heroes tale.
Video suggestion (1/2)
You should interview Fr. Patrick of St. Patrick's Orthodox Church. It's an Orthodox Western Rite Church. You can tall about Western Rite Orthodoxy.
I second this! Especially as I live 20 minutes from his church. Struggling between Catholic or Orthodox but leaning more towards Orthodox. Trying to build the courage to visit but still praying.
@@joehayward1645 I've been going there for a bit. I can't as much anymore because it's quite far from me. But Fr. Patrick and the rest are awesome people.
@@no_more_anymore Thanks for sharing! How long did it take you to understand the service? I've tried watching their streaming online but its so different from a Baptist service.
@@joehayward1645 probably a good two months lol. Just go there and visit! The best teacher is experience. Everyone over there is friendly and welcoming, they'll help you. And Fr. Patrick is awesome ti talk to.
Ohhhh this one's coming just one day before my birthday! As a big fan of both of you this almost feels like a birthday present lol
Happy early birthday!
@@GospelSimplicity thank you Austin! God bless you
"Fall in Love" is the expression we as Orthodox like to hear. Eros of God and all He has blessed, and all that He likes, that is Orthodoxy. That and the joy of the Resurrection
You know the questions are the good ones that Jonathan Pageau enjoys to engage with when you see he smiled/smirked before answering them, great interview! Since you have had Pageau interviewed, I am dreaming about your future interviews potentially with Dr. John Vervaeke, Dr. Jordan B Peterson, Glenn Scrivener (Anglican, Speak Life Ministry), Paul Vanderklay (Dutch Calvinist)...
Jonathan Pageau would be a horrible poker player. ;)
Really excited for this interview, thanks Austin (by the way, the faithfulcounseling link goes to an error page)
This should make anyone's head spin: symbol= the condensation of facts into a pattern so that you get meaning.
Let's go!!!!!! 🙏👏👏
Hope you enjoy it!
Logos can be translated as Idea or even Pattern, as well as Word. The very "being" of the universe is an expression of God Who is Being itself in the most absolute and Real way
My husband and I discuss the Big "T" truths found in Christ, His scripture, and His Church (The Redemptive plan) and little "t" truths found in maths, physics, chemistry...etc. And without humility and the grace of God mankind can't even begin to ponder the big Ts... God bless you both as you ascend to those big Ts.
Perhaps you might like the following. I’m publishing a weekly CZcams video on episodes from the life of Don Bosco, entitled ST JOHN BOSCO by JOE ZAMMIT. In this series I’m narrating events and miracles from the splendid life of Don Bosco. St John Bosco used to perform a miracle almost every day, through the intercession of Mary Help of Christians. From the lives of saints we can learn how to love God more and draw closer to him. Thank you.
when you see the world is buried in rationalism and secularism.... and then you see interviews like this and you see that other people are looking for meaning as well....
Hope it was refreshing!
Fun fact: the 2nd commandment is described in Exodus, in the very same chapter God instructs the jews on how to ornate the Tabernacle with depictions of cherubim.
Clearly, icons are not idols as long as you don't worship them. Orthodoxy doesn't worship icons, we venerate them and ask for prayer and forgiveness.
How is veneration different than worship?
The ancient meaning of "worship" involves sacrifice, the only sacrifice in Orthodoxy is the Eucharist.
We don't offer sacrifices to icons or Saints, we honor (venerate) them.
Omg..,............you got the Pagmeister!!! Kudos
Thanks!
I am passionated about symbolism and love @thesymbolicworld
I also really enjoy and appreciatte @gospelsimplicity!
God bless us all! ✨🙏🏻✨
Love from a roman Catholic from Brazil 🇧🇷💛
Yaaaaasssss!!!!
YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!
My feelings as well haha
The command is in Deuteronomy 4:15 "since you saw no form", but in The Gospel according to John 1:14 "We have seen his glory, the glory of the One begotten of the Father". The prohibition lasted as long human eyes have not seen God, but after the Incarnation, when at Transfiguration the disciples have seen the Son of God in all of his Divine Glory of the Emperor of the Universe, the prohibition is no longer valid.
Great interview. Please het Stephen Freeman.
When are you doing a talk with father Spyridon?
When I can get in touch with him😁
Catholics definitely embrace the Eucharist as a symbol, just not a mere symbol in the modern sense.
From the Catechism:
II. How is the Liturgy Celebrated?
Signs and symbols
1145 A sacramental celebration is woven from signs and symbols. In keeping with the divine pedagogy of salvation, their meaning is rooted in the work of creation and in human culture, specified by the events of the Old Covenant and fully revealed in the person and work of Christ.
legend
And you would make such a great orthodox priest.
My interpretation of the story in Genesis is that the creation of Heaven and Earth represent the creation of the Spiritual and Material worlds, or narrative/psychological and physical worlds.
So, what i understand is that a symbol is a container of meaning, and symbolism is the preservation and discovery of those symbols. Is this correct?
Video Suggestion (2/2)
Marcus Plested would be great. You can talk about how Orthodox Christians can still learn and appreciate Thomas Aquinas.
New to your podcast, but it seems that Pageau's thoughts on symbolism related to physical reality could be taken a step further. For instance with miracles, it seems when the symbolism is 'correct ' the physical event follows.
Pageau talks about this, in a way. He often says that the Miracles of Christ aren’t arbitrary. The miracles always follow the pattern on a higher level, or on all levels.
Christ walking on water is paralleled
to the Holy Spirt hovering above the waters in Genesis. Walking on water is the ultimate symbol of mastery over chaos and potentiality.
Humans go on water, but we must use our creations to do so, and it can be dangerous. Christ walks on water by virtue of his divine nature.
Just to be clear, the official teaching of the Catholic Church is that the Eucharist is _both_ the Body and Blood of Christ (the doctrine of the Real Presence) and symbolic (Christ chose to be present to us sacramentally because of the natural symbolic meaning of food/bread/wine/etc.). Some Catholics fail to communicate this accurately.
And thanks for doing this interview. It was excellent!
Love the interview even though JP's camera turned into a potato. XD
BTW, Austin, you've now interviewed both Fr. Trenham and Jonathan Pageaueaoa. You've arrived.
Glad to hear it! Haha, i think that was just a connection issue. The software I use can be a bit of a bandwidth hog
Bit of a harsh shoutout to us Mormons around 23:00, though not undeserved. The discussion of "planets" and "stars" in Mormon scripture tends to get materialized in the same way Christians generally (Mormons included) materialize Genesis. Mormons should be understanding them as a revelation of the structure atop the sacred mountain of human experience rather than as spaces in astronomical space and time.
Curious about the technical production of this. What software were you using to connect the call between you too? Zoom?
Ecamm Live
You got Pageau? Please ask how he was able to get into a Catholic Evangelization program with Chris Stefanik😳. Even if you ask on DL I need to know.
I did indeed! I wish I would’ve saw this before I recorded with him. That is quite interesting
@@GospelSimplicity 😒
The pope blessed Pacha mama and prayed in a mosque, it’s easy to do things with Roman Catholics because of their ecumenism, not so easy the other way round.
What does that mean?