Police grab shooter’s guns over speeding ticket
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- čas přidán 22. 12. 2021
- Adam Troman was lying in bed on a Sunday morning when armed police arrived, unannounced, to take away his guns. He is another victim of Devon & Cornwall Police Firearms Team’s desperate attempt to keep their jobs in the wake of the August 2021 Plymouth shootings tragedy. Their reason for removing his guns is over speeding tickets they allege he did not disclose on his firearms certificate application, back in 2012. For nearly ten years, Adam has been a keen clay and target shooter. Now that has come to an end - and he is at a loss. He says none of the police’s reasons for revoking his certificates are true.
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As an ex police officer as well as a lawful firearm owner, I understand that the devil is often in the detail, however, unless there is clear evidence to suggest Adam Troman presents a threat to others in the form of a criminal conviction, then the action of Devon and Cornwall police in this case is completely unjustifiable. Take them to task Adam as it is only in the face of punitive damages that this kind of draconian behaviour will stop.
as an ex cop as u said there needs to be clear evidence,but hearsay on a double statement that seems to overide everything..and how easy is that to do.
@@1971carmichael Everyone, not just lawful firearm owners should be concerned by our police forces abusing their powers to appear tough on gun crime or for any other reason. This truly is a matter of concern. Sadly, because most people don't own firearms there is a tendency for the public to turn a blind eye to heavy handed policing as it doesn't affect them.
It might be firearms today but tomorrow the police might coming knocking on their door to "check their thinking"in relation to a harmless comment made on Twitter!!
@@123colinfrost oh they already do turn up on people’s doors for wrong thinking on Twitter etc.
@@johnnydiamondsmusic1673 Exactly! I think we all know the case in question. Just terrifying. We need to change how our police forces and how society in general interprets hate speech/communication. Currently we could find ourselves getting arrested by merely stating unpopular facts and/statistics. It's lunacy.
As an ex police officer you should know the burden of proof is not beyond all reasonable doubt in respect firearms licensing it balance of probabilities a lower threshold.
You failed to disclose an offence from 2006? Isn't it the job of the Police to assess a person's suitability prior to issuing a certificate for firearms?
Well from 2006 till today he must have had two renewals since then and no one picked them up ? My understanding is is that every five years before a renewal the firearms unit check your details against the police national computer
Didn't seem to stop Thomas Hamilton (Dunblane massacre.) Not - to be sure - that Lodge membership ever had anything to do with that affair.
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? It does appear unreasonable that the certificate holder wasn’t given an opportunity to discuss the allegations prior to the guns being seized.
You can't be serious.
It’s as if the police decide to revoke and then look for “evidence” to cobble together a case for that. Legal insurance is the only way forward.
It is truly the mark of a free society to send armed police to a citizen’s door after giving him a speeding ticket
They have to send armed police where firearms are involved.
Almost 20 years ago I was reported by some Karen because she had learned I had bought a replica bb gun here in UK, all completely legal to buy and own at that time. Armed police then attended my house only hours after I had purchased the bb gun, armed with mp5s, they wanted to inspect my gun and see where I shot it (in my bedroom). I was allowed to keep the bb gun as it was perfectly legal, but it still left me with a new understanding of how seriously uptight some people are here in the country. To add insult to injury, the woman who reported me, her children who were younger than me at that time, owned bb guns as well but she determined her kids were responsible enough to own them, but I wasn't. I hate this country for its perspective on guns. Now here in Scotland we can't can't buy air rifles without licenses
@@iosis2009 you dont need guns as civilian, so bugger off.
@@Gangster88232 hahaha someone with the name "gangster" claims guns aren't necessary for civilians? You have to be joking. Gamekeepers are civilians, slaughtermen are civilians, skeet shooters are civilians, Olympic shooters are civilians, pest controllers are civilians, private security details are civilians...
How could you honestly believe that a government should be the only ones to possess guns? Do you know about democide? Have you ever studied history? If you don't feel you need a gun, that's your right, but it should be the right of those who wish to own a gun, to own one, which is the law so far as long as you have good reason to own a gun. There was a newspaper poll a few years ago about what topic they should raise in Parliament. 95% of people voted for them to bring back hand gun ownership. It was such an overwhelming response the newspaper dropped the poll and pretended it never happened.
@@iosis2009 we dont need civilian shooters. Their activity is useless.
i was told on my first application if you are caught speeding we need to know why if you speed twice we will take away your licence due to the lack of consideration for public safety
the police will do anything to take guns off the streets and official licence holders are easy targets as well. You fell straight into their hands.
Guns dont belong to streets and have no place in houses. Seize and smash all guns possible. You dont need them.
@@Gangster88232 with a user name such as yours I can see where that action would make gangster behavior less risky. Now if they could only seize the knives and blunt objects you could reign terror totally unimpeded.
@@maikata329 you cant use guns in selfdefence. You should not to be allowed use them at all. You are not in military. No guns, less crime.
@@Gangster88232 You are the internet's thickest c**t so far. Keep it up eh, though I'm sure you will.
@@stinkypete2722 majority is antigun, we have right to destroy your stupid rightwing hobby. All weaponry belongs to state.
Back in the 70s and 80s when I had police come to my house about a firearms issue they just came unarmed and in plain clothes so as not to freak out the neighbours
As an American that MORALLY supports gun control, the injustice of what this man has gone through OUTRAGES me. 🤬
This is exactly why you should oppose gun control. It always starts out at what seems reasonable. Ultimately you end up with nothing. Then you are on your own. When seconds count the police are minutes away.
There's a good chance that they've added someone else's speeding offences to his file. I've had to deal with a similar problem for a member of my shooting association.
Was advised my my local authority to request for a subject access disclosure from the Police National Computer (PNC) by ACRO Criminal Records Office so you know what they know about you, saves any confusion or complication.
Did you have to pay for that then?
A disarmed society is an obedient society.
“No free man shall ever
be debarred the use of arms.”
- Thomas Jefferson
Yet, in the end, americans bowed to every single weapon and ammo ban of the past. Holding on to what daddy still allowes them to own. Right down until all you are allowed to own is a break action single barrel shotgun. And you will still call yourself free because you can own them. Most US states already are more restrictive than all of Europe. Its only a matter of time the last States will pull even or be forced to split of.
@@lobster8009 Sure, I get your point but I´m not American bro. Jefferson spoke for all ``free´´ man, not just for Americans
The people involved in these "Witch-hunts" should be able to use taxpayers money to defend their cases; just as the police are WASTING taxpayers money in harassing innocent licenced firearm or shotgun owners.
Being complimentary and nice is no excuse for bad policing.
About 5 or 6 years ago my son received a dawn visit by armed and masked police.
TERRIFIED at having an assault rifle pointed directly at his face, he immediately complied with their instructions to lie on the floor.
Where were his weapons?
Weapons??!! What the HELL were they talking about?!
He'd never owned a firearm in his life! Other than an air rifle (for which he had a permit) he used occasionally to pot rabbits (rural area.)
The police searched his house and found nothing but the air rifle and left after confiscating it and warning him he might face further prosecution for 'firearms offences.'
The source of all this? His ex-girlfriend who had drunkenly phoned police claiming he had 'a house full of guns.'
He never had the air gun returned, despite its seizure being illegal, and the ex was never charged with wasting police time.
It didn't even end tbere. Pulled over for a dodgy tail light a year later, he couldn't understand the visible caution of the officers involved. He later found out that - having never committed a criminal offence in his life - the police database now cautioned officers to 'approach with caution - may be armed and dangerous.' We're now trying to get that fixed. Given the systematic, institutional rigmarole we've faced so far, we're not holding our breath.
My son - post police assault - had some emotional episodes. Eventually identified by his GP as PTSD, for which he's had to seek treatment. He has now replaced his own dumb mobile phone with a smartphone, and both his car and his home are equipped to (quietly) record any future police interactions.
You need to see a letter from the chief constable or a warrant otherwise you can refuse them entrance. I would not play ball with injustice like this. I would also ensure my optics were removed from my rifles first along with removing any custom parts or stocks which they are not entitled to have.
Speeding is viewed as wreckless and irresponsible and was always used as a contributing factor to refuse or revoke a certificate based on assessment of character. As a shooter you have to be careful about these things under current police attitudes. Many authoritie do have an agenda. The simple truth is that those high up in the police and government do not want any public ownership of guns, especially in volatile times where more totallitarian controls are being exercised on the public, where our freedoms continue to be stripped and where we can even be investigated for "thinking a certain way" which may not correlate to current marxist wokeness.
buddy u got no chance of that warrant or suspision they will come and deal with it and u got no say at all..when or if this happens say nothing..record everything like they do be calm and respectful if u never had any criminal offense or accusation then its on like donkey kong but they dont work like that....u say speeding..ppl kill doing that but they get licence back...ppl stab others to death they dont get told sorry nomore knife use what about the acid in face shit or petrol attack u see where im coming from..the law as of now has been respectable in changing laws....its the police that have those records that customise them..ur face dont fit u gone i dont at all blame the government we have some serious deals with countries for arms..thats always out of public knowledge cos its a massive buisness and uk makes some bad ass guns..as a side thought if u had a gun cabinet that record when u take weapons out would that safeguard a genuine user//in todays world i dont think so..our laws are being manipulated like usa has become u r guilty untill proved innocent,not innocent untill proved guilty....go look at american law over the years its changed to such an extent ways to defend have become illegal.
I'm a Brit with a lot of extended family overseas - particularly in the USA. I've never subscribed to gun culture. Always struck me as crazy.
That said - looking at tbe increasing incidence of firearms in UK police forces, and their increasing misuse - I have to admit that I'm now moved to believe one increasingly obvious thing.
And that is - if my largely brain-dead local police should ever be armed - then I will be seeking a gun too. I'd rather be tried in a dock than carried in a box.
Well said Paul.
An assessment for being reckless could be based on almost anything; drinking alcohol, eating too much fat, living in a high smog area, not having the chimney swept regularly, believing MSM, voting for the 'wrong' party. A list of wrong choices can be used to show a 'reckless character'.
They haven't got the police to do normal police enforcement but they manage to find officers to take away a gun licence for speeding.
Ok I'm an American and I've watched a few of these stories now and sorry, your govt is nuts! I'm so happy I do not live under those rules!
Look mate. The same happened to me. 63 year old. Shooting over 40 years. A mild altercation with a neighbour where I removed him off my property. The letter said I was a liability to society.! They are just looking to justify what is a gun grab. I too told them they are not weapons. I had years ago asked for my police report under the Freedom of information act. It was so heavily redacted to render it useless. So full of supposition too which you don't get a chance to counter. It's a wholly flawed and pernicious police force. They cocked up in Plymouth and other regions. But decent folk are paying the price.
So basically if you want to own a gun in the UK, don't be human...
Unfortunately you represent everything the woke police are taught to despise. White, English, male, married with a close/nice family unit. You have a successful business, good manners, well spoken, live in a nice environment and a penchant for riding motorcycles at speeds above legal limits.
On the other hand in the metropolitan favelas, where drugs are openly dealt and crimes committed without any fear of being reported let alone investigated or caught, where people walk about carrying assault rifles, automatic sub-machine guns, knives and other weapons there appears to be no requirement to remove these guns from their owners.
One day when the public are so underwhelmed by our police that they will never go to their aid, you would hope the police might develop some introspection skills and ask themselves why this is? The first question should be having spent x decades trying to win the hearts and minds of our criminal fraternity by policing by consent has this been a success? They are rapidly loosing the goodwill of society by their actions and your case is a classic example of this.
Very well put
Sadly I saw the behaviour of the police years ago. I've never been in trouble or got a criminal record but I did help a distressed drunken women out of a busy road and called the police to assist her. I was rewarded by an officer attacking me only to have another drag him off. Then I was in a barber shop in Brum and a guy standing outside just eating a sandwich was hit over the head with a truncheon because there was a protest 100 metres away. He wasn't remotely involved. Later I was fitted up for a car accident when a drunken woman, a friend of the attending officer, drove off her drive into my car. If only I knew the law like I do do now ! I was young and naive.
Years later, I worked in London as a Finance Director for a major organisation and drove past a policeman being beaten up by a guy in Deptford.
I just drove past. I don't care any more. I'm the kind of guy who always gets involved if someone is being hurt but nowadays never for a policeman. Not worth it.
The woke police are real. This is all about taking guns from whoever they can. Who easier than a law abiding white male to take his guns. It’s all connected to the 2030 agenda. Fact.
You don't have to be found guilty of the speeding offence. They count being reported for speeding as grounds for rescinding a licence.
Anybody can get done for speeding these days. It is human to make a mistake and I guarantee every driver in this country has gone over the speed limit at some point. It is not grounds to revoke a SGC or FAC.
@@neilgoodall1768 Speeding isnt grounds for revoking a FAC you are correct, but dangerous driving is. And this guy was caught doing almost 100mph in public, which is instantly dangerous driving. And that was his fourth speeding charge, so it shows a pattern of behaviour.
And thats before the alleged road rage incident, which, if proven, makes this even more of a clear cut case.
@@fatbap as I have already replied to your other ill-informed comment, excessive speed is not reckless driving and I do not have 4 convictions. I have one previous speeding conviction. I have absolutely no knowledge of any road rage incident, and as I relay in the video, had this been true or held any merit my licence would not have been renewed after 2018, unless the police were negligent in every aspect.
@@adamtroman8946 Firstly, I should have said dangerous driving, the UK doesnt have a reckless driving charge. Section 2 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 says its dangerous driving when "driving falls far below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver, and it would be obvious that driving in that way would be dangerous". It also says that “dangerous” means “danger either of injury to any person, or of serious damage to property”. 96mph on a dual carriageway meets that standard easily. So yes, you are a dangerous driver.
Not sure why I said 4 but you have three. You even said so in the video you liar. Cant even keep your story straight when the lies are right in front of your face. Not only that, but you have an allegation of road rage. So a pattern of behaviour that establishes you are dangerous to both yourself, and others around you. You leave them off the disclosures then you lie about it proving that youre also dishonest. And no, the police dont have to contact you over the road rage incident if the other party didnt wish to pursue charges, but it will still have been recorded. You are exactly the type of person most of the Irish and British shooting community dont want anywhere near us. Dangerous and dishonest. Seems like D&C police can actually get something right once in a while.
@@neilgoodall1768 in your opinion....the law says otherwise...and we have laws for a good reason
My neighbour who was a shooting and hunting chap for decades had seized his guns because he threatened to let down the tyres of a digger because it was smashing up dangerous asbestos near his home and the otranto refused to stop.
As an American, the thought of them attempting to terminate your firearms rights for speeding tickets is the dumbest thing I’ve heard in a while. Citizens of the UK have already given up virtually all firearms ownership rights. Stand up now or you’ll lose them all.
If the points are no longer on your driving licence, i.e expired. Then why is it relevant to your shotgun certificate?
Any excuse to disarm us.
They do this to everyone, a member of my family went through it, everything was taken on hearsay! the court case was a comedy show. you will loose but give them hell.
Good luck getting this sorted, regardless of the allegations there should be an opportunity to state your defence rather than the only option being crown court. Guilty until you have enough money to defend yourself this appears. If it were a third world country we would call it a corrupt policing system.
How can you live with weirdo Police after your priveleges and freedoms like above?
There's a difference between living and dying, but this is cruel display of tyrants wanting to commit Human rights abuses.
This could have serious repercussions, if he knew the right people.
I wonder how many police firearms officers are squeaky clean?
One in Kent definitely isn’t .. 🤔
"I got caught doing a 100mph on my motorbike"
And they took that personally....
The police are being very aggressive on people with firearms at the moment they think they are judge and jury.go to court and get them back but get a barrister to represent you but if you get a judge that’s auntie shooting you had it .the u.k has the most Suppressed gun laws in the world The police will only be happy when they stop gun ownership it’s a pity they aren’t so aggressive with people with knives that kills and wounds 95 percent more people but I so pose they would have to do some work for that they just go for the easy option.
The police are only tools of the state. An armed populace does not serve the Crown.
They'll be left poor and dismayed,drunk and homeless when they've finished fckng people over.
Get advice from one of the shooting organisations to which, I assume you belong, and contact a lawyer specialising in this sort of dispute. You are indeed being badly served by your force and obviously need to start proceeding quickly. Your chief Constable needs to be aware of what his employees are doing in his name. Your lawyer might advise on what tack to take with that.
Good luck and I trust that you find the Police to be acting beyond their powers.
What has speeding do to with a fire arm .
I know somebody who got caught speeding twice in a year,went to court,driving licence now has 12 points nothing mentioned about his sgc license,
The whole system regarding firearms and public ownership here in England is a disgrace, the police should have no part in it. It should be a civil operation. I was raided by armed police about 20 yrs ago. There was no conviction, but my firearms certificate was revoked.
Gun ownership in the UK is now finished! Just a matter of time.
@@doomfathertm8771 I agree.
I was just about to start the process to apply for my firearms certificate after paying up a deposit towards becoming a member of a club. I've enjoyed a couple of days target shooting and wanted to get into it properly.
Knowing how the police behave towards firearms owners and what's happening to you, I think I'll just lose my £200 deposit and not bother.
I don't need the distress of being treated like a criminal because I enjoy target shooting.
It's absolutely disgraceful!
To dickie, can you explain to me how your driving record should be any Bering on gun ownership. This has to be one of the most asinine things I’ve ever heard.
Reckless behaviour that puts the public at risk in one aspect of life can be indicative of a reckless attitude to the safety of the public in other aspects of life. That’s the rationale. Obviously the aren’t always linked, but sometimes they are. Whether there is a link will be an issue no doubt for the judge on appeal.
Sorry police, you are wrong! Makes me so angry!
It's not just shotgun users. I was accused of shooting someone with a std air rifle.
I was at my mother in laws birthday party (80th) when the accuser said it happened.
I do do target shooting in my garden rarely.
The popo arrested my neighbor and took 5 airsoft rifles, but the next day I had a pcso try to question me on my doorstep...... I told him to F off....... next day 2 firearms cops turned up to remove my air rifle.
I was questioned ( did a no comment interview) as I knew I wasn't home.
Nine months later, I was pleading to get my rifle back only to be told I was informed 5 months before it was NFA, but no one told me........ the popo didn't have the decency to tell me anything 🤷🏻♂️🤦♂️
Had two police officers call go take my statement after a local RTA in which I hadn't been involved other than as a witness. They seemed determined to have me confirm the story of another witness, and I eventually had to request them to leave as I was NOT prepared to alter my original statement. There was obviously an agenda under way, and I wanted nothing to do with it.
But the clincher came as they left. From the other end of my hallway I distinctly heard one say to the other "Did you see all those books in there? How f***ing suspicious is that?" (I'm retired after working most of my life in education.)
Good luck, sounds like a terrible situation 😢
Yeah,but someone being nice while they strip you of your Rights is quite irrelevant, it's like someone being nice to you while they beat the crap out of you.
You people in Britain need to take back your Rights from parliament!
Ridiculous. They carry out back ground checks with other police departments around the country before issuing a certificate. Not only that a speeding offence is no reason to revoke a certificate not exactly a violent crime or anything.
Thank goodness we have a RIGHT to keep and bear arms in the USA
At the moment !
I think the police's scheme of conjuring the idea of a reckless mindset from speeding offences is nothing other than a blatantly dishonest means of reducing the number of firearms in public hands to an absolute minimum. We all speed at some point every day - intentionally or accidentally, even the pious naysayers commenting on here. If his 96mph in a 70 limit had been reckless, why wasn't he charged with reckless driving at the time? You may say, well it was more than once, but two non reckless offences (in the eyes of the law) don't make a broader propensity for recklessness.
Very simple: there is no such offence. He could arguably have been charged with careless driving but speeding is usually easier to prove, involves less police and lawyer time putting the case together and, in reality when you look at the sentencing guidelines, the sentence will be about the same as careless driving, which is the only other realistic option.
The relevance to firearms licensing should be pretty obvious: those entrusted with a firearm need to have good judgment when it comes to taking risks in order to ensure public safety. Exceeding the speed limit to that degree goes beyond mere negligence or momentary omission, which we are all guilty of, to demonstrate a reckless disregard to the safety of other people. Add that to the other speeding convictions it shows a pattern of poor judgment around risk. The last thing one needs is a gun in the hands of somebody with that sort of attitude, because they will likely at some point put people at risk of being shot. That’s the reasoning, and perfectly logical it is too.
That’s not, of course, to say that can’t be rebutted. That’s the purpose of an appeal. This guy can call evidence in court to show that, when it comes to guns at least, he actually is a model of safe practice and competence.
@@guy1234484 That's just it, the point I'm trying to make is the law itself does not consider excess speed on it's own to be reckless, careless or whatever, to be charged with careless driving you need other factors involved not just speed. Two officially non reckless events don't make for a propensity for general recklessness. The police are trying to conjure the idea that speeding on its own is reckless when the law itself does not consider it so. They are also using the tax payers wallet to defend these chancy assertions it court. Hope he defends it in court for the sake of everyone.
@@spencereagle1118 oh I get your argument; it’s just a fundamentally flawed one. Firstly, it’s quite wrong to say the criminal law doesn’t recognise recklessness in driving as a form of reprehensible behaviour. It may not appear in the label ascribed to an offence but it is well recognised as an aggravating feature across the sentencing guidance for all driving offences. Moreover driving without due care and attention/careless driving is driving “below the standard of the reasonable and competent driver”. To meet that requirement the standard of driving need not even be as bad as the ordinary definition of “reckless” (as opposed to the very technical and unintuitive use of the term ‘reckless’ in a number of criminal offences). Secondly, the benchmark for the expected standard of behaviour demanded of certificate holders is not set by the criminal law. It is set by the Firearms Act 1968. Criminal offending will generally provide a strong indication of unsuitability to hold a licence (and in some cases lead to an automatic prohibition from holding a licence). Importantly, however, the two do not go hand in glove. Fundamentally, save where the offending leads to automatic prohibition, the task of the FEO is to look at the UNDERLYING behaviour, in all the circumstances, and assess suitability based on that. That is what has happened here.
@@guy1234484 Guy, I don't think you do get my argument. ''Firstly, it’s quite wrong to say the criminal law doesn’t recognise recklessness in driving as a form of reprehensible behaviour. It may not appear in the label ascribed to an offence but it is well recognised as an aggravating feature across the sentencing guidance for all driving offences.'' ...we are not talking about a 'recklessness' offence, this guy committed a speeding offence. By law speeding is not in and of itself an act of recklessness, for a speeding offence to be accomanied by another charge such as careless or dangerous driving you have to commit another act in addition to the act of speeding, without that it is not careless or reckless in the eyes of the law. Indeed, the road traffic act specifically excludes the act of speeding alone from being classified as reckless or careless. The police cannot simply pick up upon something that in itself is not legally defined as reckless, then declare it as reckless when it suits them in the pursuit removing someone's license. 'It is set by the Firearms Act 1968' ..no it's not, it's Home Office guidance that set the parameters for what is considered a 'criminal' offence worthy of note. At one time the police were not at all interested in speeding offences, some forces used to say 'apart from speeding offences' on the past conviction sections of their forms, but over time they have become very creative in coming up with news ways of removing certificate holders. The argument that speeding is in some way indicative of a potential to be reckless with firearms is a spurious one to say the least. It's happening up and down the country and needs to be nipped in the bud by the courts.
@@spencereagle1118 Of course speeding is not an offence where “recklessness” is the mens rea. It is a strict liability offence. Careless driving and even dangerous driving are both offences which do not require any particular state of mind; they are proven on the objective standard of the defendant’s driving, even if (to quote some of the case law) he is doing his “incompetent best.” However, the sentencing exercise for all these offences is a much broader exercise than simply dealing with the actus reus of the offence. Evidence of recklessness and particularly poor driving is something the sentencing magistrates are entitled to take into account as an aggravating feature, and as much is embedded in the Magistrates’ Courts Sentencing Guidelines. Just as the sentencing magistrates are entitled to conclude that the mindset of the offender driving at such speeds was reckless as part of the sentencing exercise, so too are the police when considering the statutory tests under the Firearms Act. While it may not be something you agree with the principle of, I can tell you that it is a perfectly lawful exercise for a firearms licensing decision maker to infer a particular attitude on the part of the certificate holder, even if that particular state of mind isn’t part of the mens rea of the offence of which they’ve been convicted (and, as I say, not even dangerous driving require the prosecution to prove any particular mens rea, even though it’s bloody obvious to any sensible person that someone driving that dangerously is almost certainly acting in a reckless manner).
I’m afraid I am actually entirely right when I say that the key test is set out in the Firearms Act 1968. Nevertheless you are still right to point towards the statutory guidance, albeit not for the right reasons. It is not the statutory guidance that solely governs the approach to speeding offences. Like any statutory guidance, the guidance is there to assist decision makers (in this case the police firearms department) in making correct and consistent decisions. Let me quote paragraph 3.6 of the Guidance to you. It is in the section entitled “3. Assessing Suitability” and under the subtitle “Danger to Public Safety or the Peace” (in reference to the power contained in section 30C of the Act for the police to revoke a certificate in such circumstances): “3.6 the applicant [for the purposes of revocation the certificate holder] need not have been involved in any physical violence to be considered unsuitable. For example, abusive behaviour, a lack of self-control, recklessness, disregard for the law in other areas…may suggest that the applicant’s ownership of a firearm could result in a danger to public safety or to the peace.”
The reason the police have in the past and current do give relatively little weight to a “normal” speeding offence is that it is usually committed negligently, doesn’t cause significant risk to the public and doesn’t show a fundamental disregard of the law. It is the very high speed in this case that gives rise to the perfectly legitimate inference that this gentleman does act in a reckless manner with respect to other people’s safety. The police are more than entitled, in my view, on the facts of the various offences and allegations (if true) to consider that the last three of those factors in the guidance are engaged. I would be surprised if a Circuit Judge sitting in the Crown Court on the basis of the facts if substantiated by the police and in the absence of any evidence in this gentleman’s favour would allow this appeal.
In court I think the previous minor speeding matters will carry little weight. It’s just kitchen sink stuff used to bolster the decision. I suspect that the judge is also unlikely to find any dishonesty regarding the declaration of the convictions, but you can never be sure. What the judge is going to be most concerned about is the road rage allegation followed by this conviction. This guy is going to have to come up with a fair whack of evidence to rebut the road rage allegation and also the natural inferences about his attitude to risk that flow from the conviction. Hopefully he’ll do well when he gives evidence and is cross-examined. That will require a good legal team because at the moment what has been said on the video and in his response to comments may well be seen by the judge as showing a lack of insight and an attitudinal problem.
You may well think all of this is entirely unfair, and I have sympathy with that view, but this is how it works in firearm licensing!
Well atleast they were polite while violating your rights
And..and...and...your not lying down to this are you???
This is disgusting for a speeding ticket outrageous
to be honest, he shouldn't be that surprised I don't think.there is a bit of overall history there, and if he's been reported for possible road rage and several speeding offences, then it's asking for trouble really.you've got to be a good boy these days to keep your gear, and I think we all know that
yes we have.
Totally agree
Your right but sometimes it’s hard not to tell someone who has upset you to F off , we are all human and not saints. Just because you have road rage at another motorist which they deserve sometimes doesn’t mean your not responsible in the mainstream of life.
Recently renewed my shotgun certificate, in the letter for the renewal I used to get a renewal form,this time I got a form for handing my guns in and had to download a renewal form myself, how many older people do not have the wherewithal to print a form off, start of the nanny state!!!!
sorry old boy....it took a lot to get my firearms licence, but i was warned that its easier to loose. One foot out of line and its gone. Being granted a firearms licence nowadays is a privalage, You are expected to be a figure of the community, a simple argument in a bar or road rage can affect your privalage.
I know of a guy who was the VICTIM of a road rage incident and had his guns seized .. it’s a joke
What a ridiculous state this country has become complete and utter disgrace of prejudiced policing.
The right of the PEOPLE to keep and bare arms shall NOT BE INFRINGED. Truly beautiful words!!! Y'all need a second amendment.
they are always nice when they want something, now try and be nice and get them back.
lets get over to the devon and cornwall youtube channel and remind them we know your game. Comments are open!
Tyranny
Didn't disclose a speeding conviction and then caught at the reckless speed of 100 mph by his own admission, I think fair or unfair he played into their hands. A harsh lesson learnt, take note they are trying to take away everyone's licence's.
Which he has no knowledge of. To back it up, After those convictions his license was renewed. And was not pulled up on it. Did you even watch it 😂
Eactly that, slobberdowN
@@hushpowershotguns2893 I think he did watch it. We know that one is assessed on a point system; go over the allowed points and an FAC is withdrawn. The Fuzz arrived on the same day as his confession. Highly efficient Policing. Imagine if someone with too many points was allowed to keep their firearms, had a bad Christmas and decided to take a weapon to themselves...there would be an outcry as to how they were allowed to keep their firearms. NB the difference between Firearm and weapon. After all, an assessment is not really about anything other than the person's mental state. Disregarding the Law is a sign of irresponsible behaviour.
@GrS he didn’t forget his 96mph in a 70 , he never said he did, apparently he had some in 2006 or whatever it was i watched it a while ago. He got his license after Those apparent convictions
@GrS 100mph is only fast because you thing of it as been so due to it being a whole number, go to europe and you will find that 160kph is not seen as fast.
also its in a 70, you know that the main point of speed limit on highways is for environmental reasons, right? in fact before the fuel crisis of the 70-80 a lot of highways around the world where unrestricted, germany was the only country that lifted those restrictions, and this might change soon and the reason again, is the environment, not saftey.
people need to get speed out their heads when it cames to driving safe, changing lanes without signally or hoging lanes or undertaking are far more reckless and dangrous.
Devon and cornwall police took 28months to prosses my aplication for a SGC ( i did have one for 5 years with no worries then let it go for 10 years ) they have finally answered me with a rejection on the grounds in my medical history iv asked for help with depression ...... that was 14 years ago and i held a license at the time , they said this proves im a danger to the public . Been shooting air guns, shotguns , rimfire since i was 12 im now 33 and been told im not responsible enough have a certificate i already held with no issues
Boo hoo. Less guns the better.
MAY YOU BE SUCCESSFUL.
as i watched this video of cowards giving up their tools against tyranny. was looking at the solid thumbs down button i had clicked, it unclicks itself.
Very much so.... SAD TIMES.
Off the top of my head the wording in the firearms act is " leathal barrelled weapon" so sadly that's how people who don't have an interest in guns see guns.
Please, please, please everyone, buy firearms insurance.
i am not a gun owner nor wish to be but watching these films on gun license cancelling it looks like the higher up want to cover backs and will do anything to remove any blame if another tragic event happens remember these are career police officers
Thanks. It certainly looks like that. / Charlie
you have to be and remain squeaky clean if you want to own and keep firearms. He didn't so he lost the right . Me i am so SQUEAKY clean even my farts are fitted with a moderator
😁 that's illegal in some countries. / Charlie
Hope you get this sorted Adam i used to live in Devon and all this does is make the public untrust and have no respect for Devon and Cornwall police when they behave so badly
Sadly the UK is now a police state.
I hope that you got a safe custody receipt for your weapons .
And attack the civil servant who was definitely incompetent.
With all these videos coming out, has anyone ever been told where these allegations originate from?
Fender and Paul, 100 mph is dangerous?
So Germany, USA etc who all have no speed restrictions are wrong?
What utter nonsense.
Take his guns for speeding?
Complete crap.
I got a driving ban and it didn’t effect my license.
This "hobby" for the British people will be no longer from the looks of it??. I'm not a legal person but would have thought an "allegation" in law is not proof of anything nor is it a criminal act. Unless guilty before innocent is now ok? Maybe some sh*t hot prosecutors would and could argue differently. Thorough psych testing and firearms competency in handling all done through a mandatory course in order to get a license should be the norm? Maybe it is in the UK? I know for some European country's it is def the case. What says you guys? Although, as someone who takes their driving very seriously and coming from a family of which some members were professional drivers, speeding on several occasions does tell me this is wanton disregard for the public safety.
Did Adam Troman manage to get his guns back do we know?
I'm kind of split on this one. Speeding at 100mph is indeed reckless and stupid.
It could result in death or serious injury to anyone. The fact you did it is an indication that you are indeed inconsiderate and reckless.
Doubt it was on the round about.....He could have been the only one on the road, or nearly so...but listen to
yourself..."The fact that you did it is ...." Have YOU never driven/rode at 100mph? Of course not. Never Mind.
@@xknight-fz8rm sorry you've lost me. But yes, I can confirm I've never driven at 100mph. Ever.
it used to say eny ofences other than driveing ofences on your renewel form when did that change
Welcome to the UK Police State......
Never invite them into your home.
Something similar happened to me. They came to my home out of the blue alleging I had been dishonest and could be a danger to the public. What an Insult... This was regarding a historical issue concerning a family member (whom did not live at my address) and not me. and my previous declaration of suffering from stress at work years before. and an off the cuff comment I made in passing about being worried about loosing my SGC. I had no recourse, nothing I said was listened to or taken into account...At all!!.. They said "Don`t worry its only for a couple of months" I knew even then that was an outright lie and they had no intention of returning my guns. What followed was months of me contacting the Firearms officer with either no reply or more excuses. They knew my certificate was up for renewal in a few months and if you ask me were biding their time. I sent in my renewal when the time came. this was shortly after BASC announced they were removing the Legal cover for their members from the 31st of July 2020. Hmmm I thought.... Low and behold, a few short days after the legal cover ended, I received a letter stating that my renewal had been refused. In my personal opinion they were no doubt aware that I would not be able to ask BASC for help any longer and would have to pay thousands of pounds to fight it. So now who was being dishonest here then?? They took away a pass time that I loved so much. My guns were eventually returned (As they were still legally my property) but were transferred to my brother and put on his certificate. They were returned in a terrible state. The barrels had rusted and needed a lot of work to restore them. It looked like they had been left propped against a wall in the car park for a year. They said "There's nothing stopping you still going shooting,) I would just have to be accompanied by my brother. As if that made up for it.... It didn`t.
I feel totally let down by the system. I have been placed in a category I do not wish to ben in. Made to feel like a criminal, had my self esteem destroyed and my good character defiled. I cant remember a time when I felt so sad and rejected. If they genuinely believed I could be a danger to the public how come I could still go out carrying and using a shotgun, albeit with my brother? It is a disgraceful state of affairs when otherwise honest hardworking, diligent and conscientious firearm owners are treated like potential dangerous criminals with little or no defence available to the majority. Yes I still go pigeon shooting with my brother. but it just doesn`t feel the same.
My brothers certificate is up for renewal now. I cant wait to see what they do next. ......Hmmm watch this space me thinks.
@@guy1234484 Yes indeed I agree, My point exactly
Couple of points here.
Sending armed cops is generally the norm. Why send non armed officers for them to then summon armed so the firearms can be made safe as per force standing orders. Non armed cops have no access to the force armoury so again armed cops are the most versatile have access to the armoury and are ultimately trained in handling and storing firearms safely. So this is a practical resourcing measure no need to send four officers when one arv will do. Yes they will have holstered side arms so I get a bit sceptical when I hear firearms owners commenting that they feel worried or uneasy around guns. As far the dog being confused no comment.
In the footage there is two mentions of failing to disclose its immaterial what the intial offence was. However failing to disclose is a matter of honesty and its a criminal offence. Its down to the individual to obtain the correct material via acro or dbs checks. It's not down to licensing to do it for you.
There appears to be a pattern of offending the previous speeding the failing to disclose and the more recent speeding via the bike. This shows a pattern of behaviour and I suspect that the flm has looked at these and decided to revoke rather than going down the vs route.
I suspect that this case will ultimately be decided by a judge at the crown court.
To summarise there is always two sides to a story there is always differing opinions what is safe and what is not. There is the appeal process which was set up for these type of incidents so an independent can see both sides.
For me having firearms is a privilege so you need to keep yourself out of bother. Doing a ton on bike regardless of the road the conditions you will be risking both your licences.
Charlie and the team I would air on the side of caution or look into these type of stories in detail prior to airing them. Negative stories like this don't do our sport any favours. This is great ammunition for the antis and if it falls into the wrong hands it will be manipulated and used against us.
Good point about armed police. That said, I too always feel slightly nervous around armed police. The difference between standing on a clay ground is that part of their job is to threat assess and use deadly force should they deem it necessary. Neither of you know each other. And, to be honest, a lot of coppers aren’t terribly bright and some have terrible judgement. On the other hand at least in the U.K. you have to have done a lot of training to carry a firearm, unlike somewhere like the US.
Are you a member of BASC? if so they can assist with cases such as this.
So if someone goes in a car and deliberately mows down a bus queue, killing people, then anyone that commits a traffic offence, no matter how minor, should in the eyes of the law lose his car, and be banned from ever getting another. Guilty until proven innocent!!!!
Police being nice you say,let's just think why that was??? One other thing is now you have told the world where your guns are kept. One thinks you won't get them back and also I hope you never showed plod where you keep your keys for the gun safe/cabinet.
Mistake 1...
Answered the door
2
Invited them in..
3
THOUGHT THEY GAVE A FK 😂🤣😂🤣😂
"THEY WERE REALLY NICE GUYS"
... REALLY.... FUNNY THEY FKT OF WITH YER STUFF 😂🤣😂🤣
Abandon your Countrymen and move to the United States to stand with us against this type of tyranny creeping in here.
any private airlines yet? unvaxed are stuck
The USA is a great place but it's not without fault.
Almost daily a US citizen is accidently, mistakenly or illegally shot by a Police officer.
Not sure I could take all that excitement.
@@dtaylor9673 I recall someone once did the calculations on the likelihood of being a citizen involved in a police shooting in the USA, it took into account the number of police officers, the population figures, the number of police\citizen interactions per day, per instance eg traffic stops, arrest warrants, domestic calls etc. The chances of getting shot by an American police officer is minute, and the chances of being shot unjustly even less, it's a tiny fraction of a percent of a very small chance indeed.
I wouldn't let it worry you 😁
A Fixed Penalty is non-disclosable, only convictions through court. Adam give it a reasonable passage of time then re-apply
The form is ambiguous as a speeding ticket is generally fixed penalty notice, unless it is a conviction through a court. Generally there would be something else lurking in the background to cause difficulties.
Take them to task bud please keep us informed of how it goes 👍👍👍👍
You should have told them you were a gay drug dealer, they'd have run away, this country is crazy?
You were upset because it was something that you love, and something that is critical for your defense as well. The government cannot keep you safe, that is your responsibility!
Nanny state. Another demonstration of the joke country we live in.
bet your glad your not a police officer in these times
Alas I suspect that even if you win it will make a renewal almost impossible and that will also constantly have to be appealed. They will do their best to ensure that the costs are prohibitive in the hope you will give up quietly.
CAN YOU SAY GUN GRAB AND NOW YOU HAVE NO WAY TO BATTLE TYRANICAL GOVERNMENT!!!!!!
Good luck with your case. Hopefully you win and the police change the way they handle things like this. Keep us updated.
when you think you have seen everything .......this
Watched a few of these gun grab videos.........can they do this without a warrant?
There's not one of you commenting negatively on here who haven't at some point broken the speed limit, period.
I know that in some states in Australia the only time you can lose your firearms license for driving offences is if you show a pattern of disregard for the law. Even then the relevant police authority has to be bothered to revoke your license, it's not a foregone conclusion. I'm not sure if it's the same in the UK, but our laws came from UK law. It seems Devon and Cornwall police have zero tolerance.
I wonder how many police firearms
Hopefully you will be challenging this decision. If successful your costs should be paid and financial restitution MUST be given.
Any outcome?