Will Super Long Oars Achieve Super Speedy Rowing?
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2024
- Welcome to another episode of Trailmakers! Today I want to try to improve upon my previous rowing vehicle to see how much faster longer oars can propel my boat!
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About Trailmakers:
In the toughest motoring expedition in the universe, you and your friends will build your own vehicles to cross a dangerous wasteland. Explore, crash horribly, use your wits to build a better rig, and get as far as you can with whatever spare parts you find on your way.
Welcome to the Ultimate Expedition!
Journey over grueling mountains, hazardous swamps, and bone-dry deserts on a distant world far from civilization - it is just you, your fellow adventurers and the amazing, jet-powered hover-buggy you built yourself. Explore, crash your vehicle, build a better one, and get as far as you can with whatever spare parts you find along your way.
Trailmakers is about building very awesome vehicles and machines, but you don’t need an engineering degree to get started. The intuitive builder will get you going in no time. Everything you build is made from physical building blocks. Each block has unique features like shape, weight and functionality. They can be broken off, refitted and used to build something new. Individually the blocks are fairly simple, but combined the possibilities are endless.
Expedition Mode is the challenging campaign mode of Trailmakers. You are competing in an off-world rally expedition with only a few building blocks to get you started. You must build, tinker with and rebuild your machine to progress. Journey through a big world, overcome deep gorges, angry wildlife and dangerous weather to progress and find new parts that will juice up your machine. The world in Expedition Mode will test your survival skills and ingenuity.
Sandbox Mode is where you want to head for an unrestricted, sandbox, vehicle-building experience. Here you can build anything you can dream of, and play around with it in the world of Trailmakers. It is a great place to test out crazy machines, and experiment with the physics engine. With tons of different blocks, hinges, thrusters and interactive vehicle parts - the skybox is the limit.
Trailmakers is even more fun if you play it with other people. Build cool vehicles and compete in mini-game modes with your friends or other Trailmakers online. Build a helicopter, send it to your friend, and shoot them out of the sky. Put two seats on a tank, and let your friend control the turret. As we get further in Early Access development Expedition Mode will also be adapted to multiplayer.
Learn more about the game on www.playtrailmakers.com #scrapman #trailmakers - Hry
"Unrealistically"... big ships with many oars were powered by *rows* of slaves at each oar, the oars were longer than some trees.
how were the oars even made
@@beaclaster by the indomitable human spirit
@@beaclasteror they just use bigger trees
@@imnotabearr ...kids today... LMAO
technically even rowboat oars are longer then some trees.
1. popping out of the water is caused due the ores going too deep into the water and pushing more downwards instead of back. (reduce the angle of them going into the water)
2. the jitteriness/ shakiness of the boat is due to combined weight of the ores being to high compared to the weight of the boat boat. (have 3 different cycles of timings for the ores rotations)
3. speed is proportional to the length of the ores up until it surpasses the length of the boat. (swap out the keel of the boat for just making it longer)( a keel is designed to to prevent barrel rolling)
1: he did, 2: he cant, the timing was already causing colliding of the oars, 3: there is a complexity limit that was causing him to make compromises, that being one of them
1. he didn't do it enough
2. yes he can there's plenty of room
3. most of the complexity comes from having too many ores. which he reduced and has plenty of complexity left
@@iceboundglaceon No he couldn't reduce the angle of the ore anymore, it was by the end at the minimum the game allowed
@@GummieI You can also get the same result by raising the oar attachment point higher, giving him a greater angle range to play with again to dial it in better.
@GummieI he also has complexity limit too so that's not a problem
His brain doing science is like my PC running satisfactory on full graphics.
Speaking of Satisfactory, I wish he would bring his series back.
@@Nar3ik25 That'd be great
@@Nar3ik25maybe when 1.0 comes out, might even inspire axolot to release Scrap Mechanic 1.0 (chapter 2).
Slow?
Staisfactory on full graphics is like putting gasoline in yojr computer
Scrapman you can have sepperate speed on rotating servos (and a lot other things) by just connecting a logic gate to it. They have a OUTPUT SETTING which basically let's you control speed.
This isn't true for all blocks. For example, logic output can only control the _angle_ of a servo or a hinge, _not_ the speed, but logic _will_ control the thrust of an engine based on the logic's output value. In other words, a servo set to 0.50 speed will always rotate at 0.50 speed, regardless of logic signals, but an engine receiving a signal of 0.50 (half throttle) can be pushed to 1.00 (full throttle) with additional logic signals
I really wish the devs _would_ allow all variables to be controlled by logic blocks (ex: servo angle _and_ speed), but that's unfortunately not how they work at the moment
@@Loop_Kat Thank you for clarifying, I was struggling with my own logic-based creations for a bit and wondering why decimals values didn't change the outcome.
@@vladimirputin3426 No problem, glad it helped. It's one of those weird things in Trailmakers where it doesn't seem to make a difference due to blocks having a max output cap of 1.00 or -1.00, but the actual logic signals _do_ all add and subtract from each other, so it's important to always double check your logic to make sure one signal isn't overriding another (unless you want it to)
Another interesting quirk is that, since logic blocks send their desired output value regardless of how big/small their _input_ signal is, you can actually override signals really easily by setting the input signal you want to override to a smaller decimal value. For example, if a logic block is receiving a signal of 0.01 and outputting a value of 1.00, it can be turned negative with an additional signal value of just -0.02 to output a signal of -1.00. This isn't always necessary, but sometimes it's easier to work with these smaller values instead of using a full 1.00 or -1.00 input signal and having to add a whole extra logic block just to negate it
Today, Scrapman tries a new devolution strat, where each iteration is hilariously ŵorse.
The mechanism between the oars wasn't a perfect four bar mechanism because the pivots were offset, that could have created some of the glitchiness
plus adding suspension (between the oars) migth dump vibrations that break the order of the rows
@@DavidRamirez-lq2co Maybe, but that's suspension on hinges on servos which is an entire cocktail of physics emulation disaster Trailmakers will see to that it breaks for no justifiable reason. The kind of breaking where you get launched at reality breaking speed when you try to use it. I could be done, but there's just a lot going on there that I doubt the game will be happy with.
@@steeljawX i mean it is not happy allready, no harm on trying it out
It's pretty satisfying when he makes a video about a comment you made in the previous video. :D
Thanks for reading the comments Scrap!
Nice! Always fun when that happens (not that it’s ever happened to me)
17:07 Sometimes when you move or delete parts, steering hinges resets their values for some reason and you have to set them again (0 strength might have reset to 100)
IDEA: this is weird, but trailmakers physics and mechanics may make it fun - underwater PLANE dogfighting. Love your vids, gentle hugs
@ 12:01 I'm reminded of when you guest starred on one of the developer streams and were judging creations. That moment he said that every time you release a video of their game there's always a group of developers huddled around a CZcams screen watching in horror.
CZcamsr-induced dev trauma made here today. 😂😂😂
17:40 omg, somebody must have just handed in their two weeks notice.
When you hopped into the air, you reminded me of a movie I watched 😂. I won't spoil anything.
But its name is " Battleship "
I don’t care if drifting a boat it unrealistic it’s cool
It "flings" after you added the connections between the oar tips, I believe because the length between them changes as you row.
You basically made a frame, and only allows movement that you get because there is no diagonal bracing, and video game physics.
My two cents:
1. Longer and heavier boat
2. No linking of the oar ends
3. Sequential rowing from back to front
4. Add control of the oar blade's angle of attack
5. Make the boat 5 wide, for more stability and less collisions
6. Heighten or add counter angle servo to get only the oar blades into the water or lessen the entry angle closer to 1°
7. Try adding hydrofoil wings for added stability and reduced contact points on the surface
8. Block out the bad drag on the servos by adding aerodynamic pillars in front with a slim block towards the servos that fills the aerodynamic void
9. The single servos could be too weak for that length of oar, look into other means of rotation
Day 4 of asking, Dear Scrapman, I have an idea.
The challenge would be to go as fast as possible in either kp/h or time from corner to corner of the grid map with a set power core limit like maybe 50 or 100. I think this would be an interesting challenge due to the need to balance aero, acceleration and the power limit.
I had commented something similar to this on an earlier video, how fast can you go for a limited amount of power cores. Kind of like an efficiency challenge
scrap man has many videos where he goes corner to corner, though idk if he had a power core limit
Actually a good idea! Unlike that “flying tanks” guy lmao
@@user-nx9yn3wq3u I mean, how many power cores is the Jet Engine? Because he can break the sound barrier with just 3 of those
I’m glad there’s a part 2 to this, it was an interesting video.
Love you scrap!
P.s. maybe spaceship evolution?
Nice to see the geometry changes helped! If you compare it to like a car, it makes sense that adding oars would be a bit like adding wheels, so at the end with the longest oars you had worse "grip" and "torque", and less "engine power" from removing servos, which in that configuration overcame the benefit of a bigger "wheel".
This gives me an idea for an multi-player episode where you try to build a vehicle that'll launch itself out of the water and then glide. And the objective is to see which creation can glide the furthest after launching out of the water.
Multiplayer Monday Idea: Remember that old Scrap Mechanic bacteria mod? What if you used vacuum pumps to keep a consistent source of bacteria, then do a demolition derby type challenge to see who’s vehicle can survive longest.
Also, would love to see multiplayer survival gameplay, or maybe multiplayer crashlander/skyblock. Could lead to some interesting scenarios/challenges.
Next time try to make is sequential. Like to have a continuous propulsion.
I used to do crew, and one of the main thing is to always be in sync, the weight going forward from the oars and the people moving makes the boat stutter forward, instead of moving consistently and slowly decelerating each stroke
Lake a paddlewheel?
I can't post the link, but there have been multiple studies that prove rowing in sync is the most efficient. This is a regularly discussed topic in the rowing world.
@@justincarter7954I know there are experts discussing really anything in the world but just the thought that everyday someone goes to something like reddit and makes a post like "why this specific way of sequential rowing is better than being in sync" and it gets hundreds of comments for hours is so funny to me lol
@@bbittercoffee haha yeah in this case I think it's because there's a somewhat popular sport based around it, Imagine the craze if a soccer player discovered a better way to kick a football
17:40 a bit of a long shot and I doubt it would've solved anything, but it's worth mentioning that when duplicating or moving items, they sometimes lose the properties you set. In this case, I reckon the hinges between the ends of the oars were reset back to 100% strength. This would prevent them from rotating due to the torque from the hinges keeping the structure square. Just something to keep in mind for future crafts!
The G-forces aboard would be crazy.
170kph in about 2 seconds!
Shorten the oars then add and extra oar block above and below the oars, that should help.
For every Action, there's a Reaction. when the Rudders FLING forward, they also take a lot of energy out of the system, and because they are connected (duh) the "push" the boat backwards.
After trying to build one of these myself, I think it'd really just boil down to stacking servos with slower, alternating speeds and meticulously fine tuning their timings to get the perfect movement on every stroke, otherwise you just end up dealing with Trailmaker's wobbly physics or ripping the boat apart. It can definitely be done, it'd just be a lot of work. In any case, it was nice to see a follow-up to see how much the additional adjustments affected performance
As for other ideas, how about trying to make a supercar that only uses the new tail propeller for propulsion? Could make for an interesting solo build or even a multiplayer competition because the propellers behave quite a bit differently than engines in terms of acceleration, braking, force dynamics, etc
I've seen flapping motions with some of my builds or builds on the workshop cause a creation to fly when it wasn't designed to. They work surprisingly smoothly. Maybe we can use this to our advantage to make a fish that swims in the air.
Faster not always better, you need to sync up with the rithm of the jumping of the buoyancy.
And don't push them too far down, because not just more drag for speed, but also more lift out from the water.
If you raise the long ones higher you can put shorter ones under them and stagger them with different speeds.
The higher ones the longer ones are moving slower, and the bottom shorter ones can move faster, maybe with flat connectors if it can handle the shorter ones.
For the different speeds you could build something like a half ladder so every mechanism has a self of it's own.
So hard to leave a short comment worth reading and still explaining the concept without expecting you mind reading so I gave up on the sort part :D
I don't have the game so I don't know if it works, just based the suggestions on what I saw, but I hope it helps if it still worth another video :)
You should bring it underwater.. kinda like the prehistoric Anomalocaris.. That'd be awesome
Love your videos. Keep up the great work
16:54 so the keel is in the middle of your boat, which is sitting above the water and not actually doing anything. I'd recommend doing some smaller keels on the back ends of your pontoons (made of hull blocks) using some tailfins, you might even get a nice hydrofoil effect (which isn't unrealistic for competitive rowboating, they come pretty high out of the water)
Hey Scrap! This video gave me an idea for a new challenge!!!! Try and make a creation that runs on top of the water!! No thrusters just servos and paddling!!
may be u should rotate the oars horizontal when they are lifting up from the water and coming back. i think the oars are pushing the air when they are coming back and that's the main reason for sudden speed loss and this unstable motion
That's true, however adding servos to rotate the oars will not just further complicate the logic but also the complexity, great idea, just too expensive
if angle and sink are an issue try setting up two rotors, one angled to rotate at 5 degrees then the other rotating in the opposite direction at 6-7
degrees don't know what the math would be on the true angle with the second rotor being attached to the first doing so would add some weight to the boat, you could also dry adding more floats too widen the base and build a deeper keel, doing so should help to stabilize the jumping around as its increased weight would give it more stability. another option may be to weight the hull so that it sits just below the waters surface and the oars instead raise into the air and row at a Zero Angle parallelly to the waters surface, although balancing the front and back may prove difficult as if its too far forward it will dive and lose speed to drag, and too far back and it will keep jumping out of the water
Did you think about stacking oars, hight wise? Additionally, when you have the oars bound together, the farther out you have them bound, the greater the tork. So if you bring the binding closer to the boat the less strain they will experience so the less likely they will be to break.
i forgot to comment on the last video but you can get more consistent speeds by using delay to cause a wave to move down the oars. allowing there to always be multiple oars pushing at once so the oars never have to waste energy reaching a speed that other oars have already reached.
look at millipede legs for inspiration.
There's a way to solve the paddles pushing air forwards issue, an altitude sensor that reads a negative input on the end of the paddles could trigger a bearing at the moment it goes under the surface
Hey, Scrap! Would you do another Q&A? And if so, when would that be?
I already have a question ready... 🤔
Office tour?
Hey scrapman, I think that you should think of rotating the oars to flat when they are out of the water. It would help with the aerodynamics
Make It like a centipede and time the rows separately
smart
He'd probably have to use parts without collision to avoid clank
Apparently this is worse, said the rowing experts
You should try to get the oars move like millipedelegs. In that way you always have some oars in the water at all times🤔😜 greatings from sweden🙋♂️
The length of the oars will only give you positive returns up until a certain point. Once they exceed the length of the boat itself, they lose efficiency and cause instability. You can add a few grid points of length to the original design and save on complexity by changing the oar arms to the 1×8 pipes.
Also, a note on the oars colliding with one another; the mechanical pieces like hinges and servos don't have perfect 1:1 movements. Meaning there's always some give. Inertia carries over and causes them to exceed the set pivot angle briefly, before returning to their set angle. This is exacerbated by extending the length of the oars. Adding the connection point between them isn't a perfect solution, since they are offset, the angle needs to be able to rotate, as well as hinge between each oar.
Conclusion: I would try to keep the length of the craft as long as you can. Only add maybe 4-6 grid points of length to the oars. And keep the same amount of oars total, but add some distance between them. Maybe only two blocks extra between each one. This will extend the craft, which will keep it from digging and "flying" and also help avoid the oars from colliding.
I feel like having the oars move in more of a wave motion might help for more consistent acceleration.
I was thinking about using two survo's for forward and backward. Quick forward, slow backwards. (Maybe also for up and down.) And when they are acting on the same time, u will get your wanted slow ramp up of speed.. 🤔😁
You could flip the vertical servos 180 degrees and have the wedges face forward for better airflow and just have those servos turn the other direction instead. Power couplings probably would've been a smoother solution to link the oars together for stability too. Any chance you could cover the oars themselves with aerodynamics block? Could also try downward thrusters that trigger when you're not on water.
I’d like to see you explore a different mechanism, I was thinking of a motor on the bottom and a vertical slit on the top. So the paddle is vertical and the oar travels in a circle with the bottom 1/2 to a 1/3rd in the water. Very similar to the stroke of a steam engine.
You could do 2 rows of oars, one above the other, the higher one with a rectangle traingle from the surface of the water (this would be long ones) and the second row will be smaller ones, more close to the surface of the water making them have their whole movement inside the area of the longer oars. And then you off-set them, while the longer ones is rectracting the shorten ones is advancing, so you decrease by half the time of your "recovery" to the next swing. If you search for tirimes you would see the disposition of the 2 rows, the longer one above the smaller one and they shouldn't conflict with each other because the movement and lenght of the smaller ones cannot reach the hyponetuse of the bigger rectangle made of big oars
At the end you had the right idea. But the buoyancy should be both at the front and at the back. And it was only at the back.
So you're trying to stabilize a boat on water which is practically impossible. It's on the surface and it will always be more prone to the effects of minor changes. The best way to stabilize it would also increase your drag force, which is to have an underwater tail. You trying to stabilize on the water without increasing your surface area on the water to create counter points of force means you're going to get flung by the resistance the oars face in the water. Using the water as a kind of stabilizer via underwater tail stabilizer would keep you relatively at the same altitude and direction or at least it'll make it so your boat would want to. Like your keel is fine, but it's just there for weight. Putting an actual kind of aileron and a flap kind of cross tail both near the front and the back to help guide both ends of the boat would both create a lot of drag, but also keep you in the water a lot better.
If you're fighting against the water and you're losing, you might as well use the water itself to help you in your battle.
When "stroking" 😂 automatically, the oars seem to be causing a counterforce when they regain contact with the water, effectively slowing the craft between strokes. With the original craft, if the oars went in a circular or rotary motion, it would probably increase effective thrust. Or you could make each successive set of servos be delayed slightly behind the ones in front, that would also probably increase stability, think sinusoid.
Maybe use hover pads and have the body be a thin scaffold, as well as adding multi Directional stabilizers and making it very heavy. This way the hover pads will keep it at a predictable distance above the water at all times.
you could angle the oars up to compensate for the length and adjust to taste with the servos.
Okay, from what I can see, the resistance from the ores going forward is negatively affecting your speed/stability. If you could turn ores to be more aerodynamic while they return to the front, it might help a lot.
This is giving me an idea for a dnd monster
A bomber vs tanks (or anti-air) could be cool. The bomber would likely have to be fairly slow and not roll or pitch too quickly, so that the tanks stand a chance of hitting it.
Can you try building one that uses Sycopated Rowing? Hopefully the staggered thrust will result in a higher top speed?..
Keep up the great content 😃👍
Tipp: If you line up the paddles with 0.01scc deceleration/delay, each paddle is 0.01scc more than the previous one. then you should be able to maintain your speed.
This gives me an idea: ornithopter submarine.
It could take inspiration from stingrays!
Maybe, the reason the ores get tangled with each other is because of the boats forward/backward tilt
despite going at the same speed in the air, some might hit the water faster and lose some speed, allowing the ore behind it to catch up and clamp down on it
I love how this ship moves like a Triop from Spelljammer.
Alternate the oars rowing to smooth the sine wave of your velocity. Your lowest speed at the beginning of the vid was 52 kph and at peak was 80kph. From lowest speed to peak is 28kph. The RMS of that would be 19.79kph. Adding that to the 52kph, your speed is effectively 71.79kph.
12:05 i cant stop laughing
I think the steering hinges are locked on the last version, and I believe the angles are most important for stability
Try spacing the awes out enough so you can have every second awe on the same side go a different direction then you wont get a pause at the end of the stroke, and shorten them alot
This is going to sound like an odd suggestion, but a good while ago you made a walker (three actually) in a Scrap Mechanic speed build video. I was thinking that using a mechanism like that might work better than having servos that snap back and forth.. It would have a smoother motion and might be less glitchy due to only needing one powered part for rotation.
The swing up isn’t high enough for the oars to escape the water. Not to mention the inertia of the oars is strong enough change the momentum of the boat they are attached to.
You should try an oar-centipede where they move on a wave down the length of the boat so there's always one set in the water
Not merely 'doubled our speed' ... at times, parts of his canoe broke the sound barrier.
have you tried to delay the servos even so slightly so they don't hit the water all at the same time but in a sort of "wave form" manner I'm not sure it could help but looking at the trust that one single movement does it may work
You should stagger the oars so one hits the water then another in a smooth motion so that it steadies it out
Try making an ‘L’ shape oar (rather than an ‘I’ shape). This way its easier to control the depth and you can ensure the oar is raised high enough to be out of the water when it is doing the back paddling action.
Paddle boat! I don't know if you've already built one but this would be cool
maybe, make the ship longer and separate more the oars so you dont need to connect them? that would avoid it from kicking you back as hard as it does now and would make it over all more stable, also maybe cycle them so some oars always accelerating you forward allowing it to have a consistent speed
To change speeds between forwards and backwards, could you use logic gates for the input? If I understand how logic works here, setting the forwards one at 1.0 and the backwards one at -0.5, should make the return trip half speed.
Timing it for continuous application might be a nightmare, though...
for a flexable link between the oars try a power coupling
Keep the oar length but find a lighter material for the shafts. As the weight of the oars aproaches or excedes the weight of the hull this "glitchiness" will get worse. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. As the mass of the oars swing forward the hull will be thrown backwards with equal force. So by reducing oar weight or increasing hull weight the recoil will reduce.
If you control the servos with a logic gate you can set the output of the logic gate to 0.5 which would make the speed of the servo 50%
It would be realy cool to use powercouplers for the Oars (but maybe with more distance between)
That thing is sick.
3:59 just use longer pipe pieces. Once you get to increasing by 8 just simplify everything to 8’s
There's a type of boat racing in India called "snake boat racing" . I don't know much about it but I'm sure there's alot of inspiration you could get for this from it.
Pls like the comment so scrapman would see this if you guys also think this is something he should check out.
Not finished with the video yet, but I'm curious why no hydrofoil to the keel? It would have provided some forward stability as well as possibly limiting the tendency to erupt out of the water.
If you rotate da paddle 90º when theyre up and going forward you get a much more stable speed as aerodynamics reasons.
I think having the oar's at rest position being in the middle is not helping any, you should try to make their default position forward and up. that way the oar's will only stop in the forward up and back down positions. also you are on the right track making the back of the boat extra long for stability but you need to do the same to the front.
What's the lightest the oars could be? It might help offset the reverse moment of the oars returning to the front.
Try to make them move alternating withouth colizions, you have 22 of those mechanisms, or more, 11 on left 11 on right, just raise the even pair of mechanism by 2 blocks, 1,3,5,7,9 and 11 at height 0 and 2,4,6,8, 10 +2 blocks
Bring the ends of the oars closer (4 blocks apart) and use power couplings
I feel it would work smoother if you made the oars move back whil they moved down, and forward while they moved up, rather that down, back, up, forward, in sequence. Down and back at the same time, then up and forward at the same time.
It's nice to see my hypothesis being proven!
do the blocks add speed to it or just the oars bc if its just the oars you can make them longer without complexity using the long pipe pieces
could you do this with pistons to pull the oars and have them rotate on a 0 strength servo resting on a steering hinge which controls the up and downward movement of the oars? would at least be much closer to real rowing ^.^
Make a trebuchet with the power couplers
i wonder if alternating the stroke of the oars would increase the average speed instead of having a large boost in speed then slowing down
What if you made almost like a waterwheel system with the oars as propulsion? would be cool if that worked
i think the reason it isn’t working as well is because of the backward motion pushing you back but if you had a waterwheel design it would be constant forward motion
Hey SrapMan, can you try making a plane where it has two propeller engines in the middle of each wing that can rotate up and down to gelp with pitch and maybe even vtol ability 🤷♂️ like the osprey but .or eplane like and wings on both sides of the egnines...
9:40 okay seeing that, now you need to make a actual bird wing/a large bird, with what you have and a little tweaking you could fully figure that out!
Scrapman Have you ever heard the definition of Insanity?😅
the times it flied made me kinda think of a bird 🤔
I wonder how well you could actually row through the air when building towards that.
would kinda just need to rotate the oars by 90degrees when getting them to the front to have them kinda act as wing pieces while having less air resistance in the direction of travel.
13:30 words to live by
time for a multiplayer boat race with oars as only way to move in any direction. no gyros allowed.
The total weight of the oars seems to be more than the hull, so its easier for the ship to move than all the oars.