Secondary Bevel on chisels is a waste of time IMO.
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- čas přidán 15. 07. 2023
- For pairing chisels I found that the secondary bevel is a waste of metal and a waste of time.
This will save you time sharpening chisels - I'll show you my findings and why.
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Just so we're crystal...
We’re told the idea of a secondary bevel is to reduce the amount of metal you’re removing AND the time it takes to re-sharpen.
BUT at some point you have no choice but to re-grind a new primary bevel right?
That's a ton of wasted metal and time...!
It works well if you have a hollow grind. Do the primary grind at 25 degrees on a grinding wheel or Tormek and the secondary at 30. Saves a lot of time and I feel like the end stays sharper longer.
I sold my tormek, to slow compared to hand I felt. I’d say try what I’ve shown and come back to me bud, it’s surprised quite a few friends of mine. Enjoy the rest of your weekend buddy 🍻🍻🍻
The long angle only has to be modified some times. The first you can sharpen it quickly. This has been the case for centuries and in almost all countries. Let's see if you think they didn't think the same. This man is not going to know more than the experience of hundreds of thousands of people before him. If I show you Spanish artisans who use chisels by hand to decorate, restore or model figures from old churches and baroque furniture, the Japanese and the CNCs will make you laugh, without templates, all from memory.
@@HewAndAwe Without the hollow grind the 25 degree all the way is better for sure. Have a good weekend.
I don't how the presence of not of a secondary bevel affects the amount of wasted metal. One way or the other, you'll end up grinding it away anyway...
Cabinetmakers prior to like the mid 20th century seem to have preferred the “grind at 25 and hone at 30-35 degrees” method because fine natural stones were way slower than modern synthetic ones, so if you’re using a fine natural oilstone it does genuinely save a lot of time. (Referencing Nicholson and Hasluck here, writing in the early 1800s and early 1900s, respectively).
With modern synthetic stones secondary bevels only really make sense if you regrind with a dry grinder with a VERY coarse wheel (only takes a couple of minutes to refresh a primary that way) and you want a super uniform polish on the edge of the tool while using fewer stones. With so little metal being removed you can often skip the coarse and intermediate stones and just go from fine to ultra fine, and a lot of people like that.
If you have to regrind with sandpaper you can lose more time from having to regrind periodically than you’d gain from using fewer stones and having to polish less metal, so secondary bevels can be a waste of time, as you show in the video. If you make a habit of touching up the edge before it gets too dull, you usually only need to use the finer stones anyway.
Either way, a sharp tool is a sharp tool, and the best sharpening method is the one that works for you, so don’t let anyone tell you that you’re wrong for using a different process.
this is false. There are always excuses made as to why cabinetmakers did something 150 years ago but the advice is out of date. We don't have the stone that would've been the prize of a cabinetmaker in 1850 - a turkish oilstone. The turkish is as fine or finer than the finishing waterstones that we have until you get into nosebleed grit, but it was slightly friable and would sharpen faster than you can with a waterstone due to the ability to apply pressure in both directions.
Grinding shallow and then working a secondary or even tertiary is mentioned in nicholson and holtazppfel for bench and paring chisels and plane irons because it's more efficient. It's more efficient now, and it was more efficient then. The real wildcard between then and now is that the planes and chisels being used were a means of economic gain - they did the rough and the fine work and the volume of work was much greater. there's no tolerance in an environment like that for an incomplete sharpening or putting sharpening off due to the disdain to deal with a whole bevel. Nicks in an edge are typically very fine when they do occur and can be ground out in a secondary bevel without resorting to primary grinding. if you use a single bevel, you are forced to regrind in that case.
Hollow grinding on a round wheel was prescribed all the way back to nicholson's text with warnings there and through hasluck in the early 1900s to not rob yourself of time before you start by allowing edges to be anything other than moderately concave.
The other thing that no craftsman back then would've tolerated is honing on two flats on a hollow grind. Sharpening and finishing the edge itself is sort of an art, though it doesn't have to be complicated. You need to be able to feel what's going on and make sure the last of your work is directed at the edge, not a couple of small flats. The prescriptions given by holtzappfel and nicholson leave a minute edge below the wheel ground bevel that is steeper and probably ever so slightly (but not intentionally) convex. it's a better edge than one right off of a hollow grind.
I've got two turkish stones - one is vintage and the other is a cretan type hone from greece or perhaps crete - they're not similar to a broken in arkansas stones.
I have to give you accolades for referencing nicholson and hasluck, though - both sources far better than almost anything given now. it's not like you can't do certain things now - we can all do what we want, it's a hobby for most. Speed and consistency of hand tools was a prime mover in nicholson's time and even if sharpening properly is a 10% gain (could be a lot more compared to how some people sharpen now), that's a huge deal for someone doing rough to middle work, or doing smoothing and especially avoiding damage. Same as the cap iron - holtazppfel and nicholson prescribe use of it. Most people have no idea what it does, but it's essential in all hand tool work, and beneficial in others. How beneficial may not be noticed if 2% of the work volume done is with hand tools and then power sanding follows them, anyway.
It's a shame the turkish oilstone is not common or found enough to be a staple now. The crete stones are a more coarse version, but a quick swipe across buffing compound on MDF in five seconds will put them on par with anything.
EXACTLY how I grind my chisels. Brilliant mate.
I’ve been trying to do this by hand, I wonder how anyone puts a new angle by hand though! 🤷🏻♂️
Being that I am just now (49 years old) learning how to properly sharpen anything. I just wanted to take the time to say Thank You!
We’re in the same boat then, I’m still missing Magic roundabout too 😂
A real eye opener. Time to start grinding back to a primary only chisel.
The edge is what does the cutting -- the material behind the edge is "wasted" in either case. The difference with the secondary bevel is, when you get to the point of re-grinding, you are taking off that wasted material faster, because you are using a coarser grit.
After all this time I was thinking the handle did all the cutting 👌
I don’t like or use secondary angles on any of my tools. I agree it’s a waste of time and money thanks for sharing this
I’m surprised how many don’t do the secondary bevel - so far more agreeing than not by a land slide.
Hi, I’ve also thought this for a while. I’m going to go back to the single bevel. I think I will grind two chisels, one at 25 and the other at 30 and then pick the bevel I prefer. I will then re grind the rest to that angle. Thank you for pointing this out to all of us. Please keep posting.
I went with 27 and 32 degrees in the end, I haven’t managed to go through all my chisels yet, I hate sharpening 😏
Educational as always thank you Ben. 😊
Cheers mate! I hope you’re well dude! 🍻🍻🍻
I've been using the Paul Sellers method. No micro-bevel. So far so good.
Someone else said he does this to me I had no idea, I actually thought back in the day he was the one who taught me to put a secondary bevel on my chisels 🤦🏻♂️
@@HewAndAwe Interesting. His method now that he has popularized is 3 diamond stones, course, medium and fine (1200 grit) then strop. He does this for both chisels and plane irons.
Ben, only serious comments here Only,
Ok here goes. Q. Two teddybears in the airing cupboard, Which one was in the army?
A. The one ontop of the tank !!!
Love it!!! 😂🤣😂
i was thinking the same, 1 question though; even with a jig the chisel might be place just a little bit different then the time before and thus would get a slightly diff angle. A bit to shallow and you only sharpen the heel and a bit more steep and you end up still doing a secondary bevel. How do you make sure you are consistent? I use the Lie Nielsen style set up block (stops for the angle) getting it exactly the angle seems difficult to me but do you have any problems? regards
Depends, are we talking from a regrind or getting the edge back? From a regrind I don’t take that chisel out till it’s done including honing. A touch up grind just to get the edge back I do it a lot more often and I’m making my hand sharpening better in the process so I don’t really notice what you’re saying cause yeah that absolutely does my head in, especially the wider the chisel is the more it pisses me off. Having said all that I’m really getting to the point where I’m thinking all this is bullshit, as long as it’s a square grind and razor sharp I’m happy, I’ve 5 sets or so of chisels and I keep my fine work chisels as are till the last minute too the use them.
@@HewAndAwe getting the edge back i ment. I am just a bit ocd about a skewed bevel after that. Regrind i do on the tormek because that shit just eats your stones away and those nice shaptons i wish to keep in a good state. I was just wondering what you do and if i missed some awesome tip or something. thanks for the fast reply
The only time i have secondary thoughts is when i doubt how sharp my first ones are. But that's rare, i usually stick to what pops in my mind at first.
Oh, you're talking chisels here.......... (damn!) 😜😂😂😂
😂😂😂 yep deep state, chiselgate 🤭
Have to agree with you , i was taught by my father done freehand on a bench grinder burr taken off on oil stone slapped across the palm of his hand and away he went same with plane irons always 1 bevel , ps glad to see you back on here as im only finding your videos on facebook
Yeah I’ve heard people doing that, I’ve had 3 finger sewn back on sometime ago and don’t fancy dragging anything sharp across my hands, you’d have to have hands like leather for that to work I guess. I always post here before Facebook. Facebook I can repost vids to like boost them maybe that’s why I seem to be more active there?
I used to hate chisel sharpening. Tried everything. They’re all long and tedious. Then I came across the Robert Sorby Pro Edge. A regrind takes a very short time with no effort then a secondary bevel on diamond plates are my method. Doesn’t take long at all. Belts are cheap and last ages.
Yeah I hear this a lot, I also hear mixed opinions on it to. When I’m rich and shameless I’ll buy one.
I don't grind a secondary bevel. I grind a primary bevel using 4 whetstones, 400, 1000, 3000 and 8000. Finish with a strop. I keep the chisels sharp by stropping frequently. Works great! Everyone has a method that works for them, I don't believe there is a right or wrong way.
Now just sit back and watch the fireworks 😂😂😂
Like a sea of nerds in white jackets with fully loaded top pocket of pens charging towards you 😂
Well dude, like the cut of your jib there, I have also wondered wha t the sec. bevel is all about, and would love to know, I shall try your method, thanks for the inspiration, take it easy out there, thanks again, great video as usual.
Cheers Paul!!! Try it on one chisel bud, I’d recommend 30 degrees for work on hardwoods, 32 is what they say for a secondary and where I’ll be changing all my chisels for hardwood work. Hope you have a lovely evening dude!!! 🍻🍻🍻
It makes me glad I don't use mine enough get the headache thinking about it all 🤣🤣
You will probably wonder why they don’t seem so sharp, try it on one at some point and see it cut better. 👍
The secondary bevel is simply a resharpening 'in use' aid. You're using your chisel and it needs sharpening. Sharpen the short cutting edge and continue. You are putting off the full bevel touch up and the same amount will be removed, overall, but that can be done away from the specific task in hand rather than a little bit for each 'in use' resharpen.
Overall, both ways take the same time and same waste - the difference is while using.
Try with out, like I said it cuts better.
@@HewAndAwe I don't really need to. I'm already @ 25 then sharpening the edge only as I go. I probably end up around 28 but who knows. I reject any concept of bevel maintenance when my chisel is in hand. Sharp edge will do me. And I don't get secondary bevel creep which might lead to wastage.
How does a tree use the internet? They log in! 🤣
😂😂😂
all very intersting. Rob Cosman puts a 3rd bevel on his chisels! he does freehand sharpening tho and it takes him 30 seconds so it cant really hurt.
Morning mate. The there’s sharpening and then there’s honing, there’s no way anyone takes 30 seconds to re-grind a chisel. Seems peeps are missing that point, you’ve gotta regrind using a secondary bevel method once it’s beyond use, then hone it. yeah sure that takes a bit longer at first than just the secondary bevel method but you have to remember you’re gonna have to regrind, you hone that the way I’ve suggested and that’s it for the future, just keep that up to date and you won’t have to regrind. I don’t subscribe to that 3rd bevel, think about it you’re aiming for the line and the pointy end of the chisel isn’t inline with the back of the chisel how to you get your line/cut right 🤷🏻♂️ I’ve never tried it though.
Just watched Paul Sellers after watching your vid. He does not bother with a secondary bevel either.
That’s interesting, did he even mention it?
I’ve often wondered about secondary bevels and never really understood the mechanics of it. Next week all my chisels are getting reground to 25 & bugger the secondary bevel
Try it on one dude, I’d suggest like I said in the vid not to grind to 25 for hardwood. You may as well hit it with a mallet. 🤦🏻♂️
The primary angle being shallower from a bench grinder or water wheel might be saving your whet/waterstone material. This method does work and it's fine for paring, but I can see the logic of using a shallow primary angle. The contact area is larger if you always flatten the primary bevel on stones. Using a single angle should have more metal material behind edge, and in theory make the edge slightly stronger with the extra metal on top.
@@HewAndAwe grinding for hardwood at 25 degrees isn't an issue. the secondary bevel gets an adjustment. Damage never progresses out of the secondary angle unless a tool is defective or someone is opening paint cans. Holtzappfel prescribes 25+5 for softwoods (primary and secondary), and 25+10 for hardwoods. The text was written at a time when damage to fine tool edges would've been intolerable, but so too would've been slowness.
I've ground to 20 degrees without an issue. Below that, you find edge damage pushing the secondary edge back into primary. there is no reasonable limit to the woods I've malleted, so there isn't a "but if it's maple" end to this. I've made planes out of ebony and cocobolo and never ground above 25.
@@DTrizzy some years ago, I bought a metallurgical microscope to grade expensive natural sharpening stones. I found it useful later to see where damage actually happens in tools. What stops you in your tracks and prevents a plane from entering a cut generally happens all in the first four thousandths of an edge, and only when you really push the limits on grinding angle will you find the edge pushed back into the primary bevel. I found this to be primary angles leaning toward 15-18 degrees.
for a long time, the forums and kind of guru talk has been reasoning into what causes damage, and people end up thinking something over and over and that makes them feel like they have proof (this is not directed at you, it's more of a human nature thing). You can grind at about 20 on a good chisel and set the secondary bevel up for the work and never have an issue with strength - it's sort of a logical trap. if you have a very hard chisel that people use on paint cans when you're not looking, then the primary angle should be more. Otherwise, if you're using decent tools at 20+ degrees, you'll not have any issues. it was a surprise to me, too. I pored over thinking about various suppositions when starting out only to find that observing what's going on answers the question in an instant. the damage comment goes for cocobolo with silica all the way down to pine with knots - adjusting the secondary and the apex of the tool is all that's needed.
So theres a duck and a chicken at the side of the road, chicken turns to the duck and says "dont do it mate, youll never hear the end of it"
In response to the content of the video, I'd always wondered why so many people advocate for a secondary bevel, it just never made any sense to me. I'm not good at sharpening my chisels as often as they should, and there's no way I was ever gonna fluff around doing it twice to out a secondary bevel in, so thank you for validating my thoughts! Surely it is the Chisel companies trying to make you replace your chisels more often!
😂😂😂 it took me a second though. 😂😂😂 I hope you’re well mate!!! 🍻🍻🍻
@@HewAndAwe you too mate!
Hi Ben, don't forget the Cosman tersorry bevel whatever the F that is ( probably spelt wrong) . Regards Jim.
I don’t get that at all either, the back of the chisel registers off the wood and the sharp edge isn’t in line with that 🤦🏻♂️ each to their own I guess, what ever works…
I used to put a secondary bevel on all my chisels until I got to started free hand and then I just stopped ,don’t remember when it just happened.
I’d love to see people’s chisels who sharpen by hand, I can’t see if keep that chisel in exactly the same position for all the time it takes to regrind, it’d be more like a skew chisel too.
@@HewAndAwe I check that the end is 90 and the angle of the bevel is normally between 25-30 and that’s good enough for me 😆
Metal wasting is not an argument as only the tiniest slice of metal of a chisel does the real work, all other metal is just for rigidity of an instrument and goes into waste no matter what sort of sharpening you use. I prefer to have 2 bevels on chisels as I can use the coarsest stone to quickly create a primary bevel and finer stones for a secondary bevel. In case of only one bevel I will need to use full set of stones for a much bigger area.
Well it is actually. And more time is spent removing all that to get back to a base bevel. Try it and see fella.
Interesting take. I can't chime in on the sharpeness aspect, not really tried a back to back test.
I would say your picture showing the wasted metal due to the secondary bevel isn't actually showing wasted metal. It is showing the metal you didn't have to grind away due to using a secondary.
You are quite right, eventually you then have to remove that chunk of steel and that takes time. But that is the steel that would have been removed incrementally using only a single bevel.
So the question is whether you want to take it off as you go or take it off in one big job.
Personally I roughly hollow grind with a bench grinder (not grinding up to the edge, just getting a decent concave) and then free hand sharpen. Free hand tends to create a convex bevel over time, which is canceled out by the hollow grind. The grinder removes the time/effort conversation.
I’ve never tried a bench grinder one I don’t have one two I’ve always been told there’s to much heat involved. But yeah I hear what you’re saying and can see how that works. 👍
@@HewAndAwe you certainly can ruin an edge or even a tool with a grinder. But like a lot of things, if you don't go at it like a fool, it's fine.
It’s quite simple. No need for a secondary bevel if you sharpen with a slope set to the required angle. My Worksharp does this for me. A quich touch up occasionally takes 5 seconds
Oh man, you have someone that does this for you- you lucky so and so!!! Hope you’re having a lovely weekend mate! 🍻🍻
I sharpen to the lowest angle on my Worksharp, that’s 20 degrees. ❤
I came to the same conclusion a while ago the secondary bevel is waste of time effort and money.
Why didn’t you tell me then!? 😂
@@HewAndAwe couldn’t find the suggestion box back then.
I agree that it is a waste. Using a grinder to establish the primary bevel leaves a hollow. I just toe and heel that hollow on the preferred grit sharpening stone/diamond plate/wet'n'dry to establish a very sharp edge. If it gets too large I put it back on the grinder again (Tomek).
I sold my tormek, to slow for me. I only miss it for my kitchen knives.
If you are using the final angle at 25degree as the old micro bevel, paring should be the same. But have you tried to use it for mortising? I think the steeper angle might make it harder to mortise since you would have a thicker wedge and have to change your angle a little from what you are used to. It can be done, but I can see it throwing you off if you get to close to your mortise wall. I think the old primary angle factors in more for mortise if you don't use dedicated mortise chisels.
I did say in the vid these are paring chisels bud, I’d only put a primary bevel of 25 of chisels for soft wood too. Really nothing to do with mortise chisels, I’d put a 30 - 35 primary bevel on them, but no secondary, it’s a waste of metal.
My opologises I read youre comment wrong, I dont read to well to be honest, very dylecsic! The above was solely and only for pairing work, mortise thats a whole differnat game, funnily enough a rabbit hole I was sent down and maybe my next vid - depends on when a GOOD mortise chisel arrives. Till then, hope you enjoy the rest of your weekend! 🍺🍺🍺
@@HewAndAwe All good man.
thanks
You’re welcome 🍻🍻🍻
Don't use secondary bevels at all, sharpen a single bevel to 30° on plane blades and chisels, have a few chisels ground to 25 and some paring chisels to 20... Usually don't use them though, 30 works for 99% of what I need
Did you not find at 20 degrees the business end rounds over real quick?
@@HewAndAwe it does, they're old paring chisels and don't use them much at all... Most of the time 30 degrees does it
Yeah if you’re not hollow grinding, I can really see your point. When I can get to a complete diamond stone system, I’ll go there. I’d love to have 2 or 3 solid diamonds and keep my 16k Shapton.
I sacked my tormek yonks ago, so bloody slow same time as by hand too roughly. I’m no fan of the diamond stones they don’t keep their coarseness, so cut slower than the ceramic shapton I use. I’m desperate for the 1600 shapton, I never get great results with a strop. 😏
All my chisels are hollow ground. Less to stone up if needed to be ultra sharp.
I’m also in the NO second or third bevel on chisels or plane blades. I like to freehand sharpen and follow Paul Sellers method. This results in a chambered bevel which solves the argument for 2nd or 3rd bevel as strengthening the cutting edge. The argument of saving time is just silly-30 seconds, 90 seconds or even 3 minutes? Really, people are going to complain about that insignificant amount of time? Just crack on mates, and sharpen up. Cheers
I’ve always wondered how peeps that sharpen by hand fix a chisel that’s say skewed…
I hope this vid gets a Brazillion views
Thanks buddy!!! My vids never do well though 😞 I hope you’re having a wicked weekend mate, be lucky 🍀 🍻🍻🍻
Hello, Ben! The secondary angle on the chisels is made solely in order to save sharpening water stone and sharpening time. A sharper angle cuts much better, but the cutting edge is blunt faster. In addition, the bits differ in the method of use for percussion and stripping. The former should have a more blunt sharpening angle and the latter more acute.
I know why dude, it’s wrong imo. You did see that I put an angle of a secondary bevel right and it cat with more ease and has the same durability cause it’s the same angle and not to mention less time a wasted metal of expensive chisels.
With respect, the simplest of manners doesn't involve a honing guide. I mean I use one but my Dad (a retired time served joiner) spits and swears at me when I mention it - "learn free-hand" he says and have a convex bevel. "Get over it" he says. But I stick with my honing guide because I know it will give me a consistent angle and will tend not to drift off to one side out of square even if it does take a bit of extra time. I'm not being paid per hour anyway so who cares. We disagree to disagree haha.
Ok here's a serious question.
I've just watched you prove that a secondary bevel is a waste of time, literally.
In which case. Why did the makers design chisels with a secondary bevelled edge in the first place? What purpose dose it have?
Okay, that was two questions.
P.s. I know you told us the reason but i couldn't think of a better serious question. Sorry.🤭⚒️🏴
I can only guess dude, possibly strength. I know if I grind a chisel to 20 degrees it’ll round over very quickly on hardwood but go through softwood like butter, a micro bevel would make that stronger maybe 🤷🏻♂️
FFS, you just reminded me that i needed to sharpen them little bastards. Even worse, regrind and do what you do, primary only. Thank you for ruining my sunday 😂
Haha I know how you feel I’ve four full sets to do, that A2 steels takes a while to 😬 re-grind one and see what you think though, and let me know here would be great! 😁 enjoy the rest of the weekend bud! 🍻🍻🍻
I’ve always considered the need for second bevel fishy and questionable, personally I think it comes from people deliberately cheating the grinding, to make it faster, and then needing an excuse to give their apprentice. Still less angel in the edge makes it last longer, I noticed that on my lawnmower where scary sharp dulled to blunt in no time at all, due to a bad lawn, while step angles last so much longer…😊
I learnt that lesson the hard way to, on a sit on lawnmower which was a bastard the get the blades on and off! I was gutted!!
Your lawn mower is supposed to have blunt blades.
@@murraytrimmer228
Not according to myuser manual, it dictates a specific grind-angle, which if for the moment do not remember, well it’s winter here, adding 10-20 degrees to that angle means the blade can take some quite hard gravel-ground-kisses, that was what I was trying to say. 🌳
If it's good enough for the Japanese, it's good enough for me!
Right, I’ve never tried jap chisels, had to many say they’re to brittle so never gave them a go. So they don’t put a secondary on then?
@@HewAndAwe with Japanese chisels you just flatten the back and hone the primary bevel to the same angle they come ground to.
I've never had a problem with brittleness, but I'm careful not to lever material out with them. The only issue I've had with them is how sharp they are...don't try to catch one if you drop it...I did and managed to stab myself in the wrist. The workshop looked like the scene of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
@davidhull2060 it’s a shame I can’t send pics here, did the same and just missed a life ending vein in my hand 🤦🏻♂️
@@HewAndAwe Sounds like some Reddit posts.
Each to their own i guess, i have a secondary bevel on my wider chisels but not anything less than 10mm, i get about the same performance either way. N.b. I am one of those proper hnsterbators whos never satisfied with less than a perfect mirror finish. Just what i need when handling my wood alone in the workshop.
I’m not a fan of wasting material, but none the less take a chisel regrind it to a mirror and come back to me bud 👍
You mirror the Primary or Secondary/Micro bevel?
@@DTrizzy secondary, I usually pit a hollow grind on the primary with the old bench grinder at about 25 degrees (If your not using a cbn wheel i do recommend it, expensive as balls when I got it but hoowee is she a goodun) and then free hand a micro bevel at a slightly steeper angle.
@@HewAndAwei do grind and polish the bevel on my slimmer chisels and Japanese ones, but to humour you and me I did take my half in chisel and ground a 25 degree bevel then polished it till i could see a small part of my anatomy, looked bigger on the mirco bevel… its good, is it better, i dunno. I’ve had trouble getting the polish e en on large surfaces in the past, this time i tried free handing the 4000 and 8000 steps using the old fashioned random pattern, it worked quite well.
I like it, ill probably keep it up (fingers crossed i am getting older) but you wont see me trying it with a pvm plane blade, those feckers take forever to hone as it is.
Lots of love from darnunda
You were right, there I said it...
Meeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, now I had to redo them all... again...
Can't keep the OCD back... they have to be the same!🙃
I find doing a secondary bevel is more forgiving when it comes to the angle. I dont have a good jig or the skills to freehand with accuracy so I do a hollow grind on a diamond wheel and then put a secondary bevel on that. If I had the skills or an accurate jig to do a good primary that might work for me but at the moment I can get a better edge on a secondary bevel than I can on a primary bevel. After the edge dulls I can free hand good enough on a hollow grind but if I was to only have a primary I wouldnt be able to free hand accurate enough (the bevel ends up rounded) and if i use the jig I can never get the same angle as there is slop in the jig. Maybe I need a better jig but I paid top $ for the one I have and its not delivering the goods (its a Veritas). So for me the secondary bevel is about getting a good edge.
Right, did you hear me say I ground the primary to that of what the secondary would be?
It's an illusion. Same amount of metal is removed.
I can’t see how that could be true dude when taking a 32 degree bevel out of a chisel down to 30.
@@HewAndAwe You take a weeney bit more metal off with the initial setting of the secondary bevel then take very little with the progressive honings (as the secondary bevel widens). The other method you take a weeney bit less in the beginning, but you're taking the lower grits to the bevel more often. It all comes out in the wash in the end.
I have never been a fan of the secondary bevel, and none of my blades have one.
…don’t even get me started on the ruler trick 😂 Enjoy the rest of your weekend bud! 🍻🍻🍻
@HewAndAwe cheers, my friend 🍻🍻🍻
Thanks for proving what I've always believed. Secondary bevels don't make a chisel any sharper.
A perky young woman recently moved in next door and has begun sunbathing topless. My wife is furious.
Me? Let's just say I'm on the fence about it.
I think it’s a case of very difficult to get right, and why waste all that metal doing it to 🤯
I sharpen everything by hand using a single bevel. Simple reason; its what I was taught as a boy by my father, who was taught by his father etc etc... works just fine for me.
Curious, say you completely lose the angle, it’s skewed or worse, by hand how do you come back from that?
@@HewAndAwe every once in a while i get the extra course and the whole stone family out and have a sharpening day, but I've never had any major issues with losing an angle, mainly because I'm probably not very bothered about a couple degrees one way or the other. I expect that I don't have any two perfectly identical bevels. Im definately not a pro! 🤣
I’ve yet to see the condition of anyone’s hand sharpened chisels, I’m looking forward to the day 😇
@HewAndAwe if you're ever in the North east of Scotland, you're welcome to drop in!
@pmewUK it’s been a minute since I was last up there visiting my hubcaps 😆
A secondary bevel means ya can get sharp faster on the stones when youre in the middle of a job, ya only need to polish the very end. With one bevel ya have to polish that whole surface and it takes longer on the stones. I use hand tools an i fuxkin hate sharpening, in overall terms youll spend more time on a tool with a secondary bevel maintaining its shape. Yes, its faster to give it a few wipes on the stone....... But then ya have to grind back the main bevel and that makes it take longer. Why maintain 2 bevels when ya only need 1 🤔😆 turning tools like a bowl gouge; a secondary bevel here is good as the heel of a single bevel will get in the way and rub when ya need to make a tight turn. Thats different tho. For hand tools, all my edges only have 1 bevel.
…you agree then 😂 Enjoy the rest of your weekend buddy! Thanks for taking the time to comment too 🍻😊🍻
You will spend the same amount of time, removing the same amount of material, just over different time periods. To each their own.
No you don’t.
As a 60,year old joiner ive never used a secondary bevel just shsrpen it and go
Peter, this is music to my ears mate. Going on the comments so far the no secondary camp is way out swinging the for! CZcams needs fact checkers it seems 😂 still let’s wait for the nerds to rock up! Hope you have a lovely weekend mate, be lucky! 🍻🍻🍻
Waste of time and effort in a cabinet shop. It might look nice to the unskilled but it won't improve their ability when using the chisel. Cheers Tony
Hey Tony how the devil are you?! It’s a contentious issue that drags out the dickheads for sure 😂