Fire Hardened Hickory Self bow - As good as Osage?
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- čas přidán 6. 04. 2022
- This past summer I dove into the world of fire hardened hickory self bows. I made a few, shown in previous bow building videos, then went to visit Keith Shannon and Thad Beckum to get their thoughts on the fire hardening process. After that I decided to build another by fire hardening a bow blank rather than the finished flatbow. In this bow making video we build another selfbow starting with a fire hardened blank. Then I take it hunting to see how well it holds up to hard use. Overall I'm happy with the bow. It shoots great and hasn't taken any set. But I still think I can do better. So the search for knowledge continues. But hey, that's where so much of the fun in bow building lay. There's always something to learn and room to improve!
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Clay , on your next hickory bow before sealing it and after sanding is completed burnish the entire bow wit a glass jar. If you spend enough time it will look like it has clear poly on it, then put your sealer on it . A good burnish job will close up the pours in the wood and help in sealing the bow.
Looks like a good result. I am thinking about giving that a try myself. I look forward to your next build.
I sure like watching you and Ryan Gill build bows! Good luck on your upcoming hunts
You are contagious, thank you! Interest gives skill and knowledge!
Thanks very much for your video Clay ,always look forward to them 👍
Glad you're doing some HONEST experimenting with the Fire Hardened bows. I read some exchanges between Ryan Gill of Hump Primitive and the guys who came up with this concept. Seems Mr. Humper was threatened by these weapons because he didn't come up with the idea. One of the guys said Ryan was lying about one of the fire hardened bows he tested. Betcha he wanted to protect his ego instead of giving honest feedback about them.
Another Great Video Clay!
Something I’ve been wanting to experiment with! Very helpful
I saw a video recently where a fellow took a black locust limb and put it between a couple tree limbs and I could not believe how much it bent before breaking. It was fire hardened. I am excited to try this with black locust.
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. It's exciting. We never stop learning..and when we do, we die.
man i would love to come to idaho and hang with you, your knowledge of archery is spot on.
Beautiful bow, and great video.
Great video. I have broken my first bow in the tillering process!!! It would have made a nice kids bow, because, well, I did some things wrong and took too much wood off. Lots of good learning, but I am glad I didn't need the bow. Great resources you are putting out here. I have to hang a head on a maul and have a couple spoons to finish, but hopefully I can go find another sucker and get going again!
Another awesome video your craft is amazing you build some fine looking bows
Thanks Rob
Awesome vid! Sweet bow
another great looking bow thanks for the video
❤️🍺
I want to see you do a fire hardened sweet gum bow! Fantastic work on your videos!
Very cool you won all that money but you're still here making videos for us. You rock.
Haha, I wouldn’t leave y’all hangin!
I want to see a fire hardened hickory board bow build and test too!
Awesome Clay well done man!!!
Thanks a bunch!
Been waiting on this
I had good success the first time I did this. I left the bow about 1/2-5/8 inch thick- barely flexing. Cooked until the belly was starting to char. You could scrape the char off with your fingernail. By the time I got it tillered out it has a nice very dark brown color. Maybe cooked a little too much since the color shows through the back but it’s a hard shooter. Also left extra length, width, and thickness all the way around to accommodate for cracking during cooking- which I had but got out pretty easily. I cooked for about 3 hours.
Yeah, I definitely need to get more aggressive with the heat.
Excellent work
Good❤️
Muito bom cara vc é uns dos melhores na minha opinião mesmo não entendo sua língua vc passa muito bem o q está fazendo pela gesticulação estou aprendendo muito com seus vídeos obrigado por compartilhar o conhecimento saudações daqui do Brasil
Awesome video I like trying new things as well if you have access try Elm white ash you also can fire harden those as well they make great bows
Hey clay I’ve been building maple board bows for a lil while now thanks to you! Just started recently heat treating the boards, have had a couple blow up, but from what I’ve experienced it’s mostly the ones I don’t add a couple of coats of butcher block conditioner as soon as im done heat treating then I let it sit till the next day then continue tillering. Depending on the design I’ve gained about ten pounds on finished bows and would have to re tiller a bit to bring the weight back down. Would love to what you could come up with on some boards! Thanks dude!
I've got a white oak board just waiting in the shop. I'll dust it off soon.
Very cool information. Fire hardened hickory is very good but still not quite Osage. Osage is bulletproof. The moisture issues probably will never disappear with the fire hardening but will certainly be mitigated. Using a fire hardened hickory myself and I am seeing similar results.
if Osage grew in every boyers home range, there would be no debate at all over which wood is best...
Heat treated white woods can come close, they make a great bow for sure, but Osage beats them all.
Heat treated Osage makes a mean bow...
Great video Clay, thanks.
I love it to look and learn every time on your channel...thanks a lot! I am bow building infected..for sure...:-)
Have fun!
Nice video!!
Thanks!!
Glad you liked it!
I have been using a 6 ft long stove pipe spread open to hold my charcoals. It is quick, mobile, and seems to work perfectly.
Man what a great video. watching you learn and try new things is such great content. I have a stack of Russian Olive that im looking forward to trying out this process on.
I have heard this makes for a great bow if you can work with this material. Another I have seen is Catalpa tree being an E--bay old flat limb long bow since the wood is not great for construction or building stuff as it bends too much to work so for a bow this is great, but I would not fire that bow since it was made in the 1920's as it had the weight, year made, wood used, and bowyer's name. Was a relative's old bow from the 1920's and 1930's before WWII like a grandparent of a person who was selling online. They even said the bow was too old to fire and could not even get a replacement Dracon B-55 string on the bow.
I'd be willing to just burn the Russian Olive as pure revenge. My mom had one and mowing under that sadistic tree used to leave me looking like I'd been juggling cats in a phonebooth.
@@caseysmith544 I recently looked into Catalpa's viability as a bow wood, with high hopes, because I have a big one in my back yard. the specific gravity is pretty low so it's not ideal, but it's certainly possible. I found a guy who made a decent one, I believe it was a thread on PrimitiveArcher. one cool thing about Catalpa is that the grain is absolutely beautiful when finished. Even if not for a bow, I might season some Catalpa logs just to make a chest out of.. it would be a stunner!
@@lunkydog I have lost shoes and a pair of pants ripping down the jeans outer seam due to the Russian Olive tree.
@@aaronschwingel3330 Yes but it is better than the native Honey Locust as that would be a great wood for a bow but the tree is too heavy unless one wanted to make an old flat limb longbow type of target bow where a heavy bow would work well to keep the left or right movement down.
This tree is growing on the edge of my property and is really only used for cabinet type work by small workers due to being almost too dense to work with a saw and often they need a diamond blade.
I do want to use Eastern Red Cedar/Juniper for a bow but knowing the bow would need backing on the outer edge not the inner belly, as this is where a bow would do its best.
Would backing the bow help retain some of the back set? I know the purpose is to drive moisture out the wood and backing might be counter intuitive. I haven't watched enough to see if kieth and Thad have attempted it with their bows. Im curious on your thoughts and would be interested in seeing if it's doable.
In this case the way too learn is to burn. Great video. I really like how you explain what you are doing.
I like that!
Using hard wood lump will give a more controllable and longer lasting fire .
Awesome video Clay. Recently finished a hickory bow, but heated with a heat gun. Still took some back set, but I also didn’t use a form. I have some Hop Hornbeam that I’ll make a firm for and try the coal method next 😎👍
Seriously 😳??
No, that’s a scammer using my avatar.
Yeah figured that’s what it was.
I got me a mess of shagbark hickory staves i aim on fire hardening. Although I am more found of bend in handle bows native style. Great video thanks
No problem 😉
Good stuff! As a boat builder I know that epoxy coating wood is the very best moisturizer barrier. Something to consider. Does the charing have any special magic or is simply moisture content? Looking at the Wood Handbook I see that Pecan Hickory has a Modulus of Elasticity of 1.37 green and 1.73 at 12 percent moisture. I wonder what moisture content you are at after firing?
Generally speaking, how long do you expect one of your self bows to last?
I didn't see where you cut the shelf in that bow. Do you have a video showing that?
I have a hickory log 10" diameter that I split in half, but it has about a 15° twist. How can I take the twist out?
Awesome video! Maybe try to seal with epoxy resin, you can thin down epoxy with acetone and let it penetrate deep into wood, and then add a second coat with standard epoxy, i think that would be most waterproof finish for selfbow.
Interesting 🤔
We used resin and acetone, just like you described, on the wood that we used for props in the fish tanks at Ushaka Marine World, Durban
Very thinned first coat, medium thick second coat, normal viscosity third coat
Can even colour the resin
They wanted a 5 year guarantee in 2004, as far as I know, most of them are still there
Native Americans used animal fat and wood smoke in sweat lodges or by hanging staves in the tops of their homes to waterproof and preserve the wood. It was said that it also improved humidity resistance. I do not know, however, if smoking the wood has any positive effects on the bow's strength or flexibility. Perhaps someone has tried this?
@@TorquilBletchleySmythe smoking does impart some water resistance. Some woods have more pitchy resins in them than others so the result varies. There is still no way to waterproof where there is no moisture variation. Most of the archeological examples we have of the eastern woodlands tribes bows have string follow. This combined with the straight forward design of their bows suggests that they were more concerned with durability and functionality over arrow cast and set.
Metal workers instill different properties to heat treated metal through controlled sintering, holding the object at preset temperatures for certain amounts of time, often holding it at several different temps before allowing it to fully cool. I wonder if perhaps a similar process would be beneficial to hardening your bow?
I think this will be my next project
Facinating wy to make a bow. That fire hardening method is pretty cool. Do you have a video on how you made the form?
Nate
Not specifically on the form but I think I may mention it in the first fire hardening video.
How much backset on your form? Could I use pecan in place of hickory since they are related?
Way cool Man 😎👍💯🇺🇲
Always gave it a day or so to get some more moisture back into the stave after the heat, otherwise it can be brittle, and snap on you. Check both sides of the stave.
I find that if they have too much moisture in the wood it will stay bent... sometimes the first time you shoot it.
The moisture meter is your friend.
over time (I have one 4 years old.} you will have string follow, thinking of another heating on that 4 year old bow as it has string follow, and lost 10 lbs draw {been looking all over for that 10 lbs.}. I like the gas grill rather than the charcoal. .Do one limb at a time.
Grumpy
Wow channel 👍❤️
The type of smoke you use in brain tan makes a difference. Same with fire HARDENING. Don't use commercial charcoal. Use natural wood only, and experiment with different wood. Also experiment with saturating the bow with different oils or natural resin, Pryor to fire HARDENING. I crushed 8 osage fruit and heart wood pulp, then soaked my ash blank in it for 3 days at room temperature. The ash blank was all the way down to floor tiller. Then ,after drying, I placed in my form, with back set. Then I heat treated 75%. Then I tillered to 22". Then I finalized heat treatment. After that I tillered to my draw. It definitely turned out to better than a standard ash bow. Very close to a fire HARDENED HICKORY. I know I need to do more , but I'll keep trying. There is something to this method, I just need to keep testing.
I'm curious now if you could see a gain with fire hardened Osage?
That’s on the todo list.
I've got a couple hickory bows I'm going to back with sinew...Have you tried fire hardening and backing? Is it in the works? I wonder if that would help resist string follow even further?
I haven’t tried it yet
The few hickory bows I’ve made here in Alabama A grease them up with hog lard and then shape them over the fire, and they seem to hold the set really good I’ve never put anything finish on them I just grease them when they get dried out
Try and find you some Bear intestine for a string it's the third group of muscle "smooth"....1st. group Musculoskeletal, 2nd group "Cardiac" heart 3rd group "Smooth"....!!!! Wash it good, Grease it down with Bear or Pig, Mink Oil would work nice....They last a long time....An old Cherokee Tradition....!!!!
You ever have any problems with checking? I’ve thought about using oil or grease but haven’t yet.
@@j.shorter4716 No I haven’t had any problems, that’s how the Native Americans around me did it, and it seems to work good
@@Leverguns50 Good to hear. I’m going to try that next time probably with olive oil or something. I usually get deep checks on the ends and the belly so maybe that’ll help.
@@j.shorter4716 are you shaping it when it’s dried or when it’s still green, I like to cut down the tree Cut out the bow even get it down to mostly tailored grease it up really good heat shape it, re-grease it and let it dry for a For a couple of weeks finish tillering it, and if I’m sinew backing it i’ll wash it down real good with Lye soap made from Ash then sinew back it and let it dry for a couple of months, then I’ll check it out maybe finish tilling it and let it dry some more after I grease the belly, that’s pretty much how I was taught to do it
What about sealing the wood against moiture with wax, oil or fat ?
Supposedly, Sinew Belly Backing was originally sought after for Belly Compression resistance, and Bow Back Sinew was a bonus, to reinforce against the increased tension...
Hey Clay, I don't make bows and I'm no genius, but would it make more sense to fire-hardened the opposite side so the molecules shrinking on that side kept it from losing its shape once unstrung?
that would give a broken bow!
The back needs to stay the "stretchiest" part of the bow, the belly which is the side hes hardening, can get crushed at the cellular level, hardening prevent that from happening
Hello Clay. Tha ms again, as always, for the awesome content.
Here is my question, from. Watching everything I can find on bowmaking, and a ton of research.
I've watched your Sinew backing, and your fire hardening belly.
My research seems to suggest that as effective as Sinew backing a Bow Back, is at resisting tension,
Its originally intended for Belly backing, with Sinew, to resist compression directly.
Similar it seems to the fire hardening, to resist compression and SET.
It seems to me, that with Sinew on back and belly, the wood core would function almost like the modern fiberglass Bows with glass backs and belly.
Thoughts?
I haven't seen anyone here, belly backing with Sinew, and I am very curious.
Sinew on the belly would do nothing. Horn was often used on the belly though.
Clay is the G.O.A.T
Is there a practical difference between fire hardening and heat treating a belly? Fire hardening seems fairly convenient way, if you have the space to do it, but I'm not quite seeing the functional difference for the end product.
there's a lively debate on this for the past few years. on one hand, heat is heat, regardless of source. I think the biggest difference is that it's much easier to heat the entire bow at once as a whole with fire-hardening, and this may have some benefit. although if you know what you're doing, you can bring a whole limb up to temp evenly (and keep it there) with a heatgun, it just requires some finesse. I haven't tried fire-hardening yet, it's on my list, but I have gotten great results with a heatgun. I'm using a fancy $500 heatgun though, with a nozzle better suited for heating bow limbs IMO than the common open round "hairdryer" tips you see most people use. I work in the commercial roofing industry, so I have easy access to all manner of Leister heatguns.
In my experience, yes. There is a huge difference. Fire hardening penetrates much deeper than a heat treat.
It is interesting that you have the same results with hickory as I do with fire hardening hackberry or elm. The results of fire hardening both work wonders for me. Both for straightening and for controlling set. One other trick I learned for controlling set that I use in combination with the hardening process is trapping the back. It helps to curb set on tension heavy woods and I wondered if you have ever tried it before. If memory serves me correctly I believe hickory is also tension heavy so it should work. Curious to know your thoughts.
I have but not in combination with fire hardening. That’s a great idea though
@@clayhayeshunter It works on those two woods I mentioned before but I have never done a hickory bow from a stave. By all rights hickory should be superior. From what I can tell from data on the different species of hickory having never made anything out of any myself, shagbark should be king among hickories. Much like rock elm is superior among elms. You have loads of experience working many more woods than me. What do you think? Can you tell a difference between them? I mean this strictly on the subject of comparing hickory to osage.
I think the Sudbury bow had a trapped back but I’m not sure, who knows maybe that bow was fire hardened. So far I’ve fire hardened shagbark hickory, American elm, white ash, American hornbeam(Carpinus Carolinians). All had major improvements. I’m gonna try trapping the back as you suggested.
My parents farm is loaded with osage orange trees. They had almost 80 acres worth cut down. Now I'm going to go stave tree hunting and try and build a few bows.
Have fun
As a lifelong hard wood floor installer and finisher, refinisher hickory is the least stable floor. It’s a great wood for handles and such but humidity and winter furnaces it’s not ideal. I refuse to install one in a Lake house. Great video
Thanks for sharing
The instability can be an issue with handles as well, I have had a lot of hammer handles loosen up when the humidity drops.
Any tip for my pine self made bow? I find it really weak in terms of weight. I already did 3 and breake 2 hehe.
Note: In Mexico the only wood you can get cheap is pine, any thing else is around $40-$100 one board.
Pine is a bit too soft for a strong bow, you can try to sinew back it to increase the draw weight.
Man these dang fish are startin to bite, you need to come on back down south.
Man I now! Too many things to do and places to be.
I wonder if you would try some black locust bows. And fire harden.
do you make your own note strings?
I love to build homemade bows but it's just that I don't got the wood or long enough pieces of wood to make a bow and some that are long enough they are to weak.
Hey clay I was wondering has the fire hardened hickory worked any better since you did this video or is still losing backset after being strung all day?
It gains it back quickly. I’m still shooting it.
@@clayhayeshunter thank you for your fast response. I appreciate it.
Really like the experimenting here. Was this a dry stave or relatively fresh?
This one was dry
very nice video, do you think white ash would work as well? Many greetings from snowy austrian mountains
I believe it would
what attachments and quiver do you use or are they hand made as well
Creekwalkertrading.com
Clay, any plans to experiment fire hardening an Osage bow, then adding a sinew backing?
Not at this point who knows.
Can you put it back on the form after the bow is finished in order to add some backset back to the bow?
With hickory, yes.
@@clayhayeshunter Awesome; thank you! I recently (last week) finished my first hickory bow. It shoots like a champ! I did not use a form to add a backset and sealed it with linseed oil. It may be too late to add a backset, but I will probably see what the bow takes. Thanks for the quick reply and for all of your awesome videos. I'll have to get my hands on an osage orange stave next. It is extremely satisfying to shoot something that is self-made!
Next time butane torch! Scorch it just after two days of drying, only the bark has been removed. Nothing else. It'll probably crack. But if it doesnt, put nitrocellulose lacquer on. And ask yourself, could there still be humidity inside?
Hi Clay. If you fire hardening a hickory or maple bow do you need to back it with rawhide? Thanks for the nice videos
Maple, maybe. Not necessary for hickory.
@clayhayeshunter do you have a osage or hickory bow for sale?
Very interesting, what do you use to seal the bows?
Spar
Do I have it right that this stave for this bow, was a raw stave?
It was until I fire hardened it at the floor tillering stage.
@@clayhayeshunter Right!
What have been the lengths of these fire-hardened hickory bows you've been playing around with?
64 inches overall
@clayhayes hey brother use tung oil it roots way deeper in the wood and gives better waterproofing bows🤙🏻🏹
I’d use at least 7 coats
Doesn't need to be hickory. Also other white woods are very good for fire hardening. Right now I have made 3 really fast fire hardened bows. One with Hickory, one with Service berry and one Maple, all turned out great, even tough my fire hardening was way less and more uneven than the bow in this video. They are also much more narrow, more narrow than would be ideal, cus they follow historical designs, and the historical designs are usually narrower than what modern bowyers recommend. because of that, only the Maple bow keeps reflex about an inch, the rest return straight.
Unfortunately i didn't get a chance to measure the speed of the hickory bow, but my guess is over 170 fps 10 gpp. The Maple bow has too wide tips to be as fast (cus i wanted to know how well does those wide tip native designs work in comparison), but it is still fast for white wood bow, with 410 grain arrow it shoots 174 fps, it has 46 pounds at 28", so with 460 grain / 10 gpp arrow, it would probably be around 168 to 170 fps. But here comes the best one, the service berry 71" longbow, 51 lbs / 29", shoots 530 grain arrow a whopping 183 fps! With 28" draw probably around 177-178 fps. So in my opinion, the service berry is even better than hickory, but the design was also bit different, so I might be wrong, but so far my greatest success is with service berry. I strongly recommend trying it out.
Maple isn't bad either, but hickory probably better than maple, but if maple is all you got, then you will be able to make a great bow with that also. haven't had a chance to try ash or elm yet, but they also should make great bows when fire hardened.
only reason I've not cut a hickory bow is on the sound region of WA it rains, and it rains etc. way too much moisture here.
Hi clay, can a guy fire harden a red oak board from the hardware store?
Probably so. It'll most likely need to be backed with something though.
Tienes que probar impermeabilizar con cera de abejas
what arrow holder are you using on your bow?
creekkwalkertrading.com
Show us how you did that quiver
Didn't think you had any hickory out there.
Usually tiller them over several days. Tiller a bit, let it rest, tiller, let it rest,...
A lot of streaching between tillerings.
Grumpy
How do you resist mooing back at the cows lol
Hey man I sent you a comment a few weeks ago , I started my own boy from dogwood and you give me an email to contact but CZcams felt like not keeping my comments so today when I finally finished the bow and my arrows when I was ready to show you I couldn’t . So how do I show you my bow man
You could send a pic via instagram.
Where did you get that quiver from? Or is it home made?
Creekwalkertrading.com
@@clayhayeshunter thanks! Appreciate it.
I wonder why you don't heat seal belly and back of the bow?
As forgiving as hickory is if you violate the outermost growth ring that's taking the tension, most whitewood bows fail violently from a tension break.
heating the wood makes it harder, but also more brittle, heating the back will make the back too brittle and it will explode under the stress
Could i use a blank from Three rivers?
Yep
Any speed comparisons between osage and hickory?
That’s on the list!
@@clayhayeshunter Excellent!
Morning Sir
I have never shot a Bow.
What now might you suggest? I definitely will not Make a bow. Haha
Thank you
Just pick up a cheap bow and start shooting. Something light weight to start. If you need help selecting equipment, the folks at 3RiversArchery.com can help.
can u build me one love to have one of your bows a big fan loved ypu on alone too was awesome
Wouldn't epoxy do a better job of sealing?
Brother try Teak Oil first 3 coats then trueOil as you like
i wonder if a epoxy coat with no lamination would help seal it and or possibly lend to a slight stiffening or does epoxy not work like that without a backing or laminant like fiberglas ect ...
You can make a bow and arrow only with a knife
???
Yep, I showed it in a video a while back
Measure moisture content before sealing not sure how that none I believe wood producers do interior wood is about 11 percent
Could you touch up that heat treat with a blowtorch I don’t see why you couldn’t if you take it slow
I think it would be way too hot. it would char the surface well before you could get the inner wood up to temp. unless you could find the "goldilocks" distance to hold it at? I would be interested to see it tried.
@@aaronschwingel3330 I might I have a hickory stave on hand right now but I’d hate to ruin a stave lol
I concur
Had anyone ever fire hardened a juniper self bow? If so how well did it work. Tons and tons of Utah juniper around me.
Keep in mind I am a complete novice and haven't mastered the basics yet, but isn't juniper a bit prone to brittle failure even without fire hardening? If you have some go ahead and try it I would certainly like to hear the results.
@@garethbaus5471 people back juniper with great results. Not sure if the fire would make it brittle or not. I have a bunch of juniper on the property but haven’t tried it yet.
@@Lost_Ham I have experimented with fire hardening for non bow uses, it makes wood noticeably more brittle although mostly in tension so I don't think it would be a problem if you back it with something else.