Commander Taboos! | What Not to Do | Unwritten Rules | Social Contract | EDH | MTG | Commander
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
- The Commander's Quarters is your Magic the Gathering source that helps you Command Your Budget! Today Eddie joins Mitch to talk about the Taboos of Commander!
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creativecommons.org/licenses/... - Hry
Came here for the promo of our show...ended up eating lunch and learning some things about Commander. All in all a solid win.
Where the heck are the Ravnica episodes?
@@PhillipReed77 Our whole show takes place on the plane of Ravnica!
Is there any chance you'll upload the podcast on your CZcams channel?
@@MagnetCrocodile Unfortunately no. We have dynamically inserted sponsorship audio and CZcams doesn't allow for that technology so it can only exist in audio format being pulled from our RSS feed. We DO have a different campaign live on our CZcams that is just an export of our twitch live stream, but it's not set in Ravnica, and has no editing (the podcast is about 3 hours of gameplay into a 50m average episode)
Would you please make a Constitution saving throw?
#1 Taboo never mentioned....
Being a bad loser... the biggest problem edh has.
Right? The game is heavily luck and pay-to-win based. It's best to laugh it off and play another game.
@@frikinrawr1014 thats why I started playing some cedh because people are expecting to have their plans ruined and their cards countered. Though I did play against a najeela deck who got really mad when his commander got countered while he had darevi on board. He won about 2 turns later
Btw if you're playing edh solely to win you really should be playing CEDH instead.
@@thebannedking1107 in CEDH yes, in EDH winning is a consequence. At least for me. I play to have fun and if possible to see my decks work.
I tell people in my playgroup if they want to kill me do it fast, don’t deprive me of mana and slow roll my death.
I "rules lawyer" but after I explain why an interaction doesn't work the way someone thinks I ALWAYS allow them to take it back and reconsider their options. I always aim to help people better understand this incredibly complex game
that's the best way to play, even pros miss triggers, and even rules lawyers make mistakes...the best part is seeing every game to it's fullest potential.
I think it's only considered rules lawyering if done in a toxic manner. You do it in a very fair and courteous way.
Same, it’s just more fun when people have as much knowledge as possible to make good plays
I think that that is fair enough and not really what is meant with rules lawyering. I think its when you dont let peopel take back, or let that trigger retro actively go... thats rules lawyering. What you do is just plainly helpful. It is complex, I do it 26 years and I still make dumb mistakes, or find every now and then a mistunderstanding I had. I like it when people explain the rules, and then let me just play it properly, so that I can practice and learn.
You sound like the guy who’s always wrong about the rules
About the kingmaker part: I feel like if someone takes you out you have the right to weaken them as you go down. There is a price to swing at someone. Also if someone breaks a deal I think it is fair game to hate on their cards for that game and cripple their deck if you can.
Yeah I actually don't get how it's poor sportsmanship either. I would agree that if you bring some sort of pre-defined vendetta to the table and act out of spite on that the whole game then sure. But going down swinging? I see nothing wrong with that, especially if they back-stabbed you OR you had a deal at the table with another player against that person anyway.
agreed. and when he talks about pubstomping possibly deleting someone new from the format...as someone new, videos like this make me hesitant with so many things (that make no sense like 'don't play goodstuff') likely to hurt the fragile emotions of EDH players.
I agree completely. If someone's foolish enough to knock an opponent out of the game without thinking through what they could do in retaliation, they deserve to lose.
Yes, I might have enough power on board to swing in and kill the mono-black deck. However, if they have significant mana open and a handful of cards I shouldn't take them out unless I'm confident I can win without a few of my best permanents.
If a player had a Deadly Recluse out and another could kill them by swinging with their two dragons, it would be bad sportsmanship not to block the stronger attacker. I see no difference between this and playing removal on your way out or other acts of vengeance.
Of course, revenge should only occur based on actions within that game. Destroying someone's stuff because they killed you in the game before (excl: risk assessment), forgot your birthday or turned down your trade offer is unacceptable.
Agreed you are my opponent and the way I was taught the game was to imagine I'm an interdimensional wizard and we are fighting just because you are destroying me doesn't change that.
@@Wanderer1313 yeah nah, its gonna be a big group hug on my way to zero life lmao. But everyone i play with has that one deck that makes people salty and we still let them play it, with the umderstanding that youre going to be public enemy number one until we decide to start back stabbing eacch other for fun. If you cant win dont play but you still need to have fun. I fully agree with you.
"Don't play Superfriends."
*glances at Planeswalker collection*
... Pass, my good sir.
*Peers at 6-Shooter Bolas deck with 15 Planeswalkers and a ton of Archenemy Style Effects*
Maybe I'll ignore this one too
@Jamie Nah Nicol Bolas the Ravager Superfriends is one of my favorite decks, I mainly play it as an archenemy style anyways because that's who he is in the lore. Corrupt minds, take control, destroy, its fun. Just talk with your playgroup, that's the biggest thing people need to do in commander.
Plus you don't have access to green so that lightens the load for most players not having to deal with doubling season.
@Jamie I mean, are you really playing Superfriends if you're focused on aggro? That's just an aggro deck with a lot of Planeswalkers for support. The whole point of Superfriends is trying to win with Planeswalkers, which tends to naturally lead to combo and control elements because Planeswalkers themselves aren't very good at killing your opponents over time with damage.
Y'know... my favorite part about Commander... is when you, as a player, discover a new combo in your deck while playing that you had no idea was a thing until you have the pieces in play. Y'know the rare moments where you just go "hold on. Does this go infinite?"
Its moments like those that really make Commander for me. The "Unintended Infinite Combo"
I find random new combos in my combo decks all the time.
This was me with scourge of valkas and vrondiss, rage of ancients.
I love those moments!
the old moment where I goof off and build a werewolf deck almost entirely from midnight hunt and crimson vow cards that actually terrorised. only lost because an exquisite blood combo went off. wasn't even supposed to be a good deck. just bought a booster box and had a some stuff from a a couple of prior boosters.
sometimes these things just happen and you wonder how they end up that way.
How tho? if you're curating every card in the deck, how does that even happen?
I love how you folks emphasize communication, understanding and fun. It applies to so much more than just Commander
"I drew 12 cards how have I not won?" Been there on both sides of that sentiment.
I know! what makes me chuckle is when I ask someone who just discarded a bunch of land to hand size "So, how many more of these in your hand now?" and I see the face of despair, its always entertaining.
"Commander taboos"
Me : "Ho cool, I bet there aren't that much"
"50m long"
Me : "... Hold up, wait a minute"
So many ways to ruin people's day in commander
Should everyone just play "Group Hug?" :)
@@ReyAgapito Group hug into group suicide lol
@@jonathantillian6528 is this actually a thing? I'm from the Philippines where I really haven't experienced "whining" a lot. I play with a Child of Alara player and somehow players still are ok with playing with him. Annoying but nobody asks him to play any other commander.
"Generic Goods stuff deck". So we're supposed to only play weak cards now?
Don’t forget the other common taboos:
- Having fun
- Curving out
- Effectively executing your gameplan
Drawing cards, attacking, blocking, oh winning, hell PLAYING MAGIC!
Winning the game is quite taboo
These comments give me hope for the game.
@@joshfigs oh they hate it when you have hope hahahaha
@@jonarvaez8232 they really do. If it’s not battle cruiser magic people complain
I once made a nine piece combo that made infinite 0/1 goat tokens in a deck where the main objective was not to get hit. It accomplished nothing but make all of my friends laugh. Good times. It's also the only infinite combo I have ever done.
Whats the combo lol
Sound's like a very scottish thing to do =p But I agree with Cetovy, what's the combo?
That’s why he’s the goat 🐐
Lol hope no one in your play group runs massacre wurm or rakdos charm
I have a 6 piece infinite recursion combo that generates infinite mana and returns all card to your hand from the graveyard and infinite etbs or ltbs.
It's jank but fun
My first ever commander game, there was a player named Dan, and I was told EDH stood for "Eliminate Dan Hahaha". So I built a deck whose only job was to consistently hit a single player for 40 damage on turn 1. Never won the game, but I always had the first kill.
mono black T1 Hatred using rituals and artifacts? If so that's absolutely beautiful
@@SpenkerHatesGhostNotes Mono Red actually, Voracious Dragon
First player out of an EDH game is the winner in my book. That's called threat assessment.
@@Suicidekings_ Tnis makes me feel a bit better lol, haven't won in weeks with my new deck since everyone just wants to eliminate me first 'cause I'm playing hardcore aggro
@@Suicidekings_There is the winner, and there is the arch enemy, and both are the winner.
“Superfriends tend to run a lot of wraths”
Jokes on you, I play a super friends deck with umori as a companion so I can’t run any
wow, that sounds unplayable
Elspeth, Sun's Champion has a board wipe ability
Im guessing you've got Lord Windgrace as your commander?
I also have a Superfriends decks without boardwhipes, but it's Golos turns
Superfriends kykar, I could run. Boardwipes but they're boring, i do have a cyclonic rift but unless it'll win the game for me next turn I won't cast it
I don't care what kind of deck people play as long as they play quickly.
Give me anything but the dreaded durdle
Same, I play with some "hated" decks myself and so do my playgroup, we are all quite high power bordering on cEDH with nothing off limits (apart from the cards on the ban list) so it's common to see crazy combos and RL cards. However our one rule is if your playing deck with complicated combo's and things, you practice with it so that you can execute it in a fairly quick manner. My deck like that is a fully powered Jhoria artifact storm and I goldfished a bunch with it to make sure I'm not durdling about.
@AllesOKify Practice playing it by yourself essentially
@AllesOKify Goldfishing is when you basically play solo with your deck, just playing through different hands and interactions by yourself. Obviously not as good as actual testing but it helps you learn different interactions in the deck, and test consistancy all without annoying other players.
@AllesOKify Personnally I use moxfield, they have a really good system to test out your deck on the computer before assembling it in paper. Really cool to practice and test out speed.
My friend and I build commander decks as if we were Yugioh anime characters. Optimal, sub-optimal, good, bad, doesn't matter. We only play cards that are on theme. Often makes you miss out on some balancing staples BUT it almost always makes for way more fun building/playing.
The one thing they don't acknowledge about these taboos in commander, is that for many people their commander decks are more a showcase of their collections, and some of the most abusive and obnoxious decks are highly valuable/ rare cards. The deck gets played once to show off to the new guy at the table and then gets swapped out for subsequent games.
This comment made me automatically recall my Mimeoplasm deck. All my most beautiful and rare foils, full faces, trophy cards. Had two others that were less brutal so i could take it easy at times, but still had classic money cards all in them. Won or traded on point for most of them, and they were worth a mint. They got stolen, and at this point I'd never be able to accurately replace everything in them. Mimeo was my favorite construction of all time, and thinking about how I'll never play it again for the rest of my life leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. Those decks were the synthesis of over a decade and a half of tournament and competitive play.Your comment is more than accurate.
Rules Lawyering is all about language, never had someone get really upset when I said something like "Oh you may not be aware but because X... Y... do you still want to do that?"
Yes, rule lawyering is really only anyoning when I aceeintly draw instead of untapping first. So frustrating when someone points it out even if it has no impact.
@@kitfisto6345
On a casual Table i would agree on a cedh Table shit like that matters.
But yeah we started to teach one another by punishing people drawing before untapping by them skipping untap. Now nobody ever forgets it.
(That rule is just for our regular 4 Player Table not if other people join)
@@simonkerstgens6888 That is a fair way to do it. Plus with edh being one of the most diverse formats people often have effects like howling mine which can trick you into wanting to just draw cards and see what you have to work with before you untap. Basically it's mostly down to impatience.
I actually wish someone had done that when I had Enchanted Evening out and they decided to Pernicious Deed, destroying all creatures, artifacts, and enchantments. I didn't think this was a big deal until he oh-so kindly informed me that because of Enchanted Evening, EVERYTHING, including everyone's lands, were enchantments that were going to be destroyed. Had I known of the interaction I would never have played Enchanted Evening to begin with
Giving the opportunity to backtrack when they don't understand a rule is fine. It's only an issue if you force them to continue the path they were on due to a misunderstood rule on their end. Now, I will say if you left a gap open for a reaction, they don't take it then try to backtrack to that later, I don't think that it's unfair to block it. I had a situation in a prerelease where they had incidentally revealed a counterspell (illegal target, so they put it back in hand). I knew they had it, so I intentionally left a 10-ish second gap after playing any given card so they could use their counter if they so chose. They said "what next" or something to that effect, then tried to counter the card that had just resolved after I had played another card. I didn't allow it because I had left the gap, and been given an indicator that they weren't reacting
*sees "Taboos of Commander and that it's 50min long*
Better get the popcorn. This episode is gonna last longer than a fair portion of my 4 player games.
for me, the reason infect feels so bad is because there's very little way to remove poison counters, there's a couple of cards but only being able to take 10 damage from someone with no way to reset or stabalise feels rough
wouln't Karn Liberated deal with it?
unless restarting the game doesn't include poison counters, idk
@@Sillimant_ not sure if karn does but still, the idea that the only way to actually interact with it is to ult a like £40 odd planeswalker feels equally bad tbh
I mean solemnity saves your from infect which is only like 2 bucks but eh. I'm not mad at infect
Blockers or ways to tap creatures. or just fog effects. pretty easy to counter imo.
Basic removal, blockers, tapping the creatures, detain, kill, anything you can do will shut down an infect player. It’s not usually free 😅
Thank you, now I have all I need to build the perfect deck to teach new players how to play commander.
🤔 I always imagined Niv Mizzet would sound more like Gilbert Gottfried
Gottfried is Storm Crow
*scribbles notes furiously* yes...yes...and how do you hear Lavinia?
Teysa sounds like Laura Bailey in my head
In truth, firemind wouldn't have a voice. He would transmit the information telepathically. And you would understand.
@@EncounterParty Ellen Degeneres 100%
What I learned in boating school today is: people get salty over everything
There is a school for boating?!
I love rhub-goldberg combos. I always end up with at least one in basically every deck
I agree with the list but you can't deny that feeling and memories these cards make the first time they're played.
Crap, just realized that I have basically one of every type of these decks.
Hey, it's better than having them all together... like my Lavinia deck that has Stax, Land Destruction, Combo, way too many Wraths, and all the other fun stuff.
@@auroralee that just sounds like a really well constructed deck. I like your style.
@@Mightypoo007 dude it's good deck construction 101 hahahahahahaaha! If you're playing combo you're going to need ways to protect yourself and those pieces. So lots of removal and stax pieces are great. Plus she's running lavinia so land destruction is obviously extremely synergistic as is the other stax pieces. Now if you don't like those things well boohoo it's still a solid set up. Better than a list that runs every kobold with no removal and no wincon hahahaha. "Smart" wtf?
@@Mightypoo007 you must be new. This formats been around for over 10 years and since the beginning there have been competitive players playing it. This isn't exclusive to casuals or players (like yourself apparently) that don't even play to win in a game that was designed to have winners and losers. In layman's terms: it's "DuMb" to try and gatekeep in a community that you clearly don't understand. Stick to your playgroup and let everyone else enjoy what they want.
@@Mightypoo007 ps maybe read what you're saying because it sounds VERRRY "douche-like"
this whole episode is essentially a list of my decks and I have no shame
No shame needed! I have a Rashmi deck that is chock full of countermagic eventually ending in a combo of infinite turns. That covers at least three of the categories we talk about!
@@eddie_cq8276 only one I didn't have is chaos since that doesn't have a plan to win xD
@@Dragon_Fyre got a group of 12 here at school and a group of 6 back at home thankfully :)
Lol when i saw this video in my recomendation i was like ''lest talk combo, stax, storm and SALT''
And i was also like '' well combo it's fun, when you play the deck not against'' by the way i'm very happy i build my first coombo deck, ok there is no mana crypt, mox diamond and all those golden mana rocks but it work quite well for my budget
@@emanuellejaugey4895 budget combo decks are amazing! I built my Grumgully the Generous deck on a budget, but tuned to the max, and it can get t4 and 5 wins consistently. I don't think there's a card in the deck over a few dollars, maybe 3?
Our playgroup consists in its core of: Me: constantly deconstructing and reconstructing low to high-middle tier decks around the newest drafting scraps.
Mrs. "i just like these cards" : Literally plays vanilla cards because "she likes them", not caring for powerlevel, despite actually having a decent collection.
Mr.WomboCombo: Constantly on the hunt for cards that upgrade his near top tier Decks, and consuming 75% of the game time in his final combo turn.
Mr. Mono green: Has 8'164'120 of basically the same Go Big monogreen or gruul decks ranging from low to high-middle tier
Mr." Don't worry i don't play Mill" : will play Mill, or random low tier decks
Mr. Magic: Actually plays flavourful well thought out decks at a high-middle tier power level
... so we are accustomed to a lot ^^
I've watched three videos like this in a row now, and they've managed a miracle trigger, making me optimistic about future playgroups. My old group had a habit of targeting me on the basis of "you know how to build a good deck." I kid you not, those were the exact words I got during a game where I had two lands on turn 5. Because of that, I did away with the "spooky Halloween" theme of my Reaper King deck and started pushing it to be as competitive as possible, only now I'm realizing that the lack of theme is why I haven't been able to settle on a list. Think I'll head back to the drawing board again and throw my best shot at making the old "Stalked in a cornfield/Fiddlesticks" vibe that I loved so much in my tribal constructed days.
Timestamps
2:13 - Intro
==Taboo Deck Types==
4:15 - Mass Land Destruction (MLD)
8:47 - Infect
11:58 - Combo
17:49 - Stacks
23:07 - "Superfriends"
26:49 - Storm
30:11 - Extra Turns
31:34 - Mill
34:35 - Chaos
37:43 - "Goodstuff"
==Taboo Gameplay==
41:36 - "Pubstomping"
44:10 - "Kingmaking"
46:39 - Rules Lawyering
48:16 - Distractions
48:49 - Closing Thoughts
Excellent, I appreciate the timestamps
forgot doge stamp but gj
MVP
thank u so much
Thanks so much for these time stamps
Okay... I knew it was coming. MLD is a taboo. “How dare anyone touch my green ramp!”.
But as a MLD player on occasion, I appreciated the nuance in the discussion, & defending MLD’s proper use. Thank you!
@@user-ww3js8ci7d yes!!! Mine is Tomik Distinguished Advokist.
With landfall being as powerful as it is mld should be a-ok
Great show! I took apart a few of these decks. My Shalai board-wipes was really bad, her + Avacyn and novablast wurm happened a lot. I do still have Warp World in my Jund tokens.
I'm listening to their list of 'Taboo Decks and Strategies' and realizing that, in my group, we either play or do these yet we still all have fun and laugh with no sore losers. I think this is more for if you're playing commander in a public setting rather than your friend group and someones house.
Correct. Since most aren't blesses with regular friend groups to edh with, these taboos are mostly for navigating unknown social waters.
*Sees MLD, Combo, Storm, Stax, etc*
Is that like, a personal attack or something?
If you have all those decks, then Bravo, and I hope to never cross paths with you in magic ever again.
@@hbot2758 I mean I have some that AREN'T those. They're just there for when the power level demands it.
@@JackRabbit9181996 I like you :)
@@RyuBateson218 thanks, and if you liked that then I feel pretty confident in saying I like you too.
It's like they said in the video, discussion with your playgroup is key. If everyone wants to play powerful strategies, then its fair game. But if not, its easy enough to play a deck of a lower power level like Tormod + Kamahl or Merfolk.
@@JackRabbit9181996 It's not only the power level. It's also that fun means something different for everybody.
I keep hearing about this vaunted social contact in commander.
I have NEVER played in a pod that abides by it.
I feel like everyone should build and experience these decks. It helped me understand particular strategies, and what to react to. By playing these "taboo" strategies, I've become a better magic player
Woah back off with that big brain stuff, people just want to be bad and forcing them to learn against there will is a micro aggression rofl
The best way to learn how to beat a deck is to learn how a deck wins, if you’re having trouble with a deck you should play the deck
Dude this. That's in anything. Magic: play against good decks.
Martial arts: spar with people better than you.
School: study with front row types..
Now days we just encourage everyone to come down to mediocrity to balance our own short comings and insecurities, for the sake of "fairness".
It's debilitating to growth and excellence.
One combo i have that gets people at my table really salty is i play the pre-con twincaster deck from strixhaven and i added in Sakshima of a thousand faces and then i use right of replication on sakashima effectively creating if everything has gone perfect 7 twin casters with each of their doubling tokens triggers going off one after the other creating at minimum 128 tokens every time i create a token. I have only had it work ONCE but man was it great XD
"I cast Rakdos Charm"
I find it fun to put weaknesses in my decks that I’m aware of but stuff that gives my opponents an opportunity to interact with my permanents and forces me to try and work around the obstacles
If I ever play Mitch I'll be sure to play my atraxa superfriends deck with armeggedon, stasis, and winter orb
don't forget tangle wire and ensnaring bridge!
A lot comes down to how you play the game, I've held a winter orb in my hand all game because the group was more relaxed and it didn't fit the room. I've tutored it up as an emergency button when a deck was getting out of control. Its not what you have, it's how you play it that really defines all this
Yep. I play mono black deck and had Entomb, Dark ritual and animate dead in my opening hand. I have to restrain myself.
The long-shot of your miniature with the dice on the wood table, is extremely visually pleasing.
Like getty-quality.
When i realized my reaper king deck was shredding everyone's lands. "I am so sorry I didn't know it could do this!"
Hahaha I felt like a dick.
I don't even run the RK deck I built, my son who got me into magic does. I run Aesi in 1 v 1 and Araumi in multi, at least until I build an Obeka deck.
You stoped it, so your fine
It just makes the most sense with reaper king. You COULD break other stuff but land is always the most important
@@UnexpectedDanger My son and I have an agreement. If we are 1 v 1 he will not run RK against me and I won't run my Araumi mill/control deck against him. He hates losing RK. Lol
@@OmegaMTG hahaha y'know I built reaper king on a whim and didn't do much testing but the deck is alarmingly effective already. What a guy! I haven't gotten to Rite of Replication him yet but one day. One day.
Imp's Mischiefing an opponent's Time Stretch feels good.
Back before I played commander, my favorite deck was a red/green creatures matter deck. I typically used a bunch of ramping creatures (llanowar elves, somberwald sage, sylvan caryatid, etc), as well as xenagos planeswalker. This deck would run myojin of infinite rage, and I would revel in just demolishing all lands, but still be able to play all my stuff. First thing I was taught when I started playing commander was that everyone would hate me if I did that. I was taught this before I even played my first match, before anyone even knew I had a myojin of infinite rage.
Infect is a problem in EDH at ten BECAUSE the infect player can surprise insta-kill only one player. One player gets Tainted Striked on turn seven, then has to sit it out for another hour until everyone else finishes the game ,EVEN IF THE INFECT PLAYER LOSES.
I play an atrexa infect proliferate deck and while people have gotten salty at my here’s infect counters they often blame themselves for not interacting with me on my turn infect isn’t a bad mechanic just some people complain bc you killed me before I could win sad face I legit found a pod that said play whatever it’s always fun
There's a chaos deck in my playgroup, and playing against it is some of the most fun games I've played. Changing the decision points to working arond new cards especially ones that don't synergize, and finding how to pull a win out of it.
Well I guess we know WHO on your playgroup is playing this strategy. 😏😉
We once had my friend playing a super fun chaos deck against my newly assembled Yurlok and a King Kenrtih (because he knew I brought mana burn and said nah). And I believe the 4th deck was a saproling tribal with Ghave? It was the longest messiest commander game we've played and we loved every minute of it. When the dust settled, the 4th deck went out first, it got back to me, I realized a trigger I missed that wasn't a may, and would have killed everyone on the Ghave players turned. So we thought they went out first but all just went, oh shit, no you won. GG everyone. We still laugh about what a fantastic clusterfuck it was.
One of my most fun games was when I was running group hug and someone else was running stax. The two of us were basically having a fun side war while everyone else got to enjoy the shifting tides. Talk to your group.
My only issue with infect is that it tends to take out one player really early, but stalls in the later game. Then that player is forced to watch a half hour game of magic before they can jump back in. This just isn't fun for the group as a whole in my opinion, and my playgroup has agreed to not play with infect for this reason exclusively. If infect was more consistent in its ability to remain powerful it wouldn't be as much of an issue.
I certainly agree. It can be tough being that first member taken out. Like what they said about infect stalling after the first kill is 100% true, but that just means as the first one taken out instead of playing you're now just watching, which is what I consider to be the worst kind of commander experience, not getting to actually play commander.
@@Yasda01 why do people let the rest of the board live? it's not hard to just kill everyone instantly with infect, I don't get how it's considered weak
But it isnt even funny for the infect player, because after he killed a player the probability that he wins after that is low
@@vittoriosavian9964 I didn't say it was? I siad its not fun for the group as a whole.. including the infect player.
My tip for playing against mill: Don't look at what you're milling. Treat it as a time trial challenge
You guys highlighted all my favorite strategies!
Everyone: How can I ramp out a turn 1, 2 or 3 game winning infinite combo?
Me: How can I bounce everything to their owners hands over and over with Dromar the Banisher?
You know, it's funny that when my friends and I first started playing EDH almost a decade ago in high school, we just had crazy decks with infinite combos or combos to lock down everyone else as well as tutors to get them.
Now, most of us have taken out all the infinite/ unfun combos in our decks or if there is an infinite combo, we don't tutor for them.
Thank you for teaching me how to play commander correctly.
This has taught me that whatever I do to try to win, someone is going to hate it.
Unless it's budget.
Exactly. Just play to win. If they lose, whatever lol.
Yup. Sad truth. I just ignore the complaining and enjoy my cards.
Based on my group its always the "Oh by the way I played X so you lose" setups that people hate. One person made a whole deck around getting purpheros and avenger of zendikar out at the same time. It ended up not being fun for them either because we knew we had to remove them early every game.
thats on your opponent to build around the fact that people will do that.
Chaos is great! I once played wild evocation and forced someone to end 2 turns (immediate end the turn spell, and teferis protection phasing out his land)
Thanks for providing me with some ideas for cards to purchase.
Land destruction or just land balancing would be a great way for white to knock green down a notch, but I'm sure people would complain that iT's NoT fUn or healthy for the game...but having one color that can do basically everything somehow is
White agrees
Okay but which deck to do think is going to recover fastest from MLD? Then white deck or the green deck? Also which deck do you think will have the best board when the MLD goes off?
My take on MLD is, you better win very soon after it or you are just playing it to be an ass.
@@bryanmacdonald8015 Eh, depends. Has green exhausted it’s ramping yet? Even if green gets a benefit, cutting them down to restart the cycle is considered an advantage for most colors. If their engine gets cut in such a way, it can really be damaging specially with a following board wipe
Thought of a compromise: forest specific hate.
I love Encounter Party! Extremely high quality production and an epic story line.
Hey there, Party Person!
superfriends is alot more palatable when you protect your planeswalkers with loyalty abilities that summon blockers instead of boardwiping
I'm surprised you guys didn't mention a playstyle like Horsemanship!
Not one I'd ever pull on people I don't know, but having my buddies read the text for Sun Quan was amazing.
My friend runs a knight tribal with a card that gives all his knights horsemanship
Oh hey, #PartyPerson from Encounter Party! stoked to see this promo spot!
I remember playing with some of my friends recently and one ran a stacks deck with a winter orb and he knew I’m relatively new and a casual player so he made an extra effort to make sure the winter orb didn’t mess with me too much. He made the play experience decent for me despite playing a mean deck.
Stax will actually often benefit the weaker players at the table, because lots of stax cards are designed to hurt the more broken or "unfair" strategies. They tend to even the playing field a lot of times rather than just catapult one player ahead.
I honestly feel like stax doesn't deserve its reputation as a "mean" deck, because the strategy is inherently very fair, it just tends to not let others play the way they want to and thus is perceived as unfun
Heck yeah. If you have the ability to turn stax on/off, you 100% should use it to gain favor with others at the table. That not only makes the play experience better for those players, it is just good magic - in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" kinda way.
I think the tip for good stuff and building on a budget to make mitigate the flaws is a good idea. That plays up the novelty factor that makes commander appealing. That could be applied to some of the other categories too I suppose- like swapping a combo piece to something more inefficient. I think the core element of a lot of these come down to respecting other player's time.
At our table, Kingmaking is kinda what you're expected to do. We don't like it when you concede without impacting the board even though you still can.
"Casual" Commander Taboos. I don't think infinite combos are taboo at all in most groups. They are reasonably cheap to assemble these days too.
They aren't so long as:
- it does not take up half an hour
- come out of nowhere to end the game
- have a re-run every time you play with that group
@@danielvanginkel7081 i mean, maybe the first time is out of nowhere, but then later you just know that he has it...
@@danielvanginkel7081 the entire point of combos is to "come out of nowhere and win the game" thats the ideal. play more interaction.
I’ve never had problems with game-ending combos, but it’s more about the time that was already played. If it’s early, you can just reshuffle and start another game. If the game’s been going for two hours, everyone already got to attempt their strategies and have some fun, and it’s probably time to go home anyway.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 “play more interaction”
Tell me you never play a deck without blue without telling me you never play a deck without blue
Mitch should do some D&D related stuff... either here or another separate channel.
Unwritten Rule wise:
1) Suggest Wayfarer's Bauble as a budget card
-Also 9:40 "Infect player may take one player out..." - laughs in Triumph of the Horde.
- 10:40 Mitch "Life gain is a powerful strategy and white is lucky to have it" - Mitch cast Sarcasm, does not pay 2 for the Smothering Tithe.
AGREED!
Nice tips!
I've had a commander deck with Walking Atlas, Retreat to Coralhelm and Simic Growth Chamber in it and accidentally discovered this infinite. Would never want to play Tatyova in that as well. Just no fun.
I watched 4 CEDH decks go at it. Was crazy to watch. Lots of counters and answers.
"No Infect, no mill."
Me: _Looks nervously at my Fynn, Vraska, and Phenax decks_
to be fair, mill is bad. people just over target it
@@moxopal675 Mill isn’t inherently bad, it’s just hard to make it work. My Phenax deck is, admittedly stupidly, built around Relentless Rats. Since the rats all boost each other, just having a few out with Phenax on board can quickly decimate the opponent’s library. The problem is just getting the rats out, which is why I added cards like Thrumming Stone and Helm of the Host to get more rats on the field.
@@moxopal675 Mill is Magic's equivalent of hemorrhoids: not life threatening 99+ percent of the time, but extremely unpleasant and you just want it gone.
What's your Fynn Decklist? I've been building him too
@@connorcowan7606 couldnt you say the same about life totals? the problem is that 1) there are more decks that care about things in the grave than there are decks that care about life. 2) there are single cards that just stop mill like the eldrazi. 3)unless everyone is playing mill, your doing it all by yourself compaired to life totals where the other players help. 4) 276 cards you have to mill is alot bigger than 120 life. Thats would mean a 2 mana card that mills 10 is like a burn spell that deals 4.3 damage. you wouldnt play that in commander. 5) there is alot more damage doublers than mill doublers
I thought Mitch was mean to Eddie in the beginning of the video, and then I heard his opinion on olives. Deserved
Olives are the real taboo of the episode.
On distractions: I’m on my phone because my opponents take too long.
This a million times. If your turn takes more than 2 minutes you're an idiot.
@@UnexpectedDanger I wouldn't necessarily say that I plat at at table with three of the six of us playing blue its gonna be a min fam
I was playing against 3 different blue decks. One turn took 15 minutes cause we were in a counter battle and trying to figure out the stack to stop a combo. Was on my phone for the 15 minutes lol
The only time my pod enjoys long turns is when I play my joke chaos deck. It has things like Rainbow Vale, Ghazban Ogre/Ogress, and most of the turn is spent trying to figure out WTF is going on.
My 2 cents on "kingmaking" is if someone is about to win, then on your way out from them killing you, take 'em down a bit to give the rest a fighting chance :P
I'd go a step further. If someone is taking you out of the game, I see it as poor sportsmanship if you just stop caring about the game altogether. It's your duty to punish them for taking you out in any way you can, whether by using removal, blocking strategically or just throwing whatever you can at their face (in game, not literally).
If you're going to take a player out of the game, you should consider the likely ramifications and whether killing them is an optimal play for you given what they may be capable of.
@@adamrobinson6951 agreed, I would argue that not playing your hardest to your last hit point is just kingmaking the person that took you out
I am still playing this jhoira deck you built after all these years. This is how I started commander and this is how I still like it. Started it from scratch as budget and upgraded it over the years of playing to an almost competitive deck
Sorry guys, I love you but I love drawing cards even more so I’m still gonna play her for a while 😚
Couldn’t agree more, I’ve just stared Jhoiriding as I call it and it’s fun. I took the advice in this show on board and learnt how play fast but explain the key points that would help my opponents make decisions when needed and have a few wincons in there so my crazy card advantage actually leads somewhere. Who doesn’t want to draw 5-10 cards a turn after all?
Mitch while I dont agree on everything I find myself in agreement with a majority of your takes. Generally we are trying to get similar things out of mtg and edh specifically. Keep up the great work!
I am very new to Magic. The "spite play" thing is really fun if presented in the right way. There is a guy at where I am learning to play that announces the play two-ish turns before doing it, and I have a feeling that he does them when it won't effect the out come of the overall game. His presentation and play choice make it fun for someone like me, because after he does it, the entire table gets to talk about how brutal it could have been in another situation. That makes learning about brutal game play entertaining at the very least.
I remember one of the people I used to play with growing up would actually sit there for 10 minutes during a match on his phone and it would take forever for a turn to go by. Used to drive me crazy until I got older and decided against spending time with that sort of person anymore. I am glad you brought up that "respect the other player rule and put away the phones". There's a difference between a quick 2 second text and a text convo over minutes. Also the music at the end was really good
What if the person has ADHD?
The best example I have of how you can play a stax piece similar to MLD where you will close out the game soon after is playing Smokestacks in Titania. You feed it your lands and get tokens, which is what your decks wants to do in the first place; so you don't just break parity, the card *accelerates* your games plan while it increasingly hamstrings everyone else's ability to stop your beats. It's basically a 2-3 turn clock once it comes down because the first counter is annoying, the second is rough and the third is brutal at 6 permanents for each opponent. If players let the card stay around for the 4th counter it's basically game over because the resource swing is just too much to get past. It's also pretty fair imo because 3 opponents have 3 whole turn cycles to deal with a single artifact before they are really in trouble, if they can't I really don't feel like they have a lot of room to complain.
Hold up a d and d podcast? That sounds sick. Will definitely tune in
Love you and your content Mitch!!
Thank you for making a list of my favorit deck archetypes :D
Something very important for combos, apart from the ''more pieces=fairer combos''. The less tutors you have, the more fair and accepted it will be.
Exactly! No one wants to see another re-run of last weeks game ending. It gets boring too quickly. I've won with Teferi, Temporal Archmage plus a bunch of mana rocks and The Chain Veil about three times and then decided to throw out The Chain Veil. It just gets boring and annoying.
@@danielvanginkel7081 I actually just came across that combo yesterday building my Tezzeret the seeker chain veil combo. Just grab all my artifacts out and win.
In reference to infect, the problem for me with it is, it hard punishes the decks commander is known for (battle cruiser decks with synergy) in a way that basically disentivises playing the slower decks commander is known for, and I've found aggressive decks just take out the guy that's behind turn 6-7, (whose already pretty low thanks to not having creature's that can effectively block) the aggro player soon after loses the game, and the game might as well have been a 1v1 from the top. This is without infect being considered to clarify, though infect certainly doesn't help in that respect.
I'm 2 years into magic and I'm really glad I saw this video! I used to go to a relatively new LGS and it was so painful because there was literally a community of players there that consisted of one of everything that was listed lol 😂 from taking a card out of a deck because they didn't have a "real" rhystic study and writing the name of the card on a blank text card (literally also did it for other cards like scroll rack 😭) MID-MATCH BY THE WAY, to a guy getting ready to leave for work but wanted to test his "superfriends golos" deck cause he wanted to see how fast it wins in the little time he had to get somewhere important...
I just take everything as "welcome to Magic the Gathering" lol I also don't go to that LGS as often anymore 😅 probably for the best
Speaking of nutty combos. I used Kenrith as a commander to pull off an 8 card combo involving aeon engine and isochron scepter pull from eternity to be able to aeon engine swap turn rotation once every single turn. So I could just bounce the turn order between 2 players forever.
Isochron Scepter is a good combo enabler that i think a lot of people sleep on
I will definitely tune in DnD/MtG podcast. Maybe some day Mitch will get Rob to be there XD
Heck yeah! Welcome to the party :)
I played my first game of Commander yesterday when I stopped by my LGS to preoder a box of crimson vow I had a lot of fun and some of the card interactions are interesting with multiple pepole at the table. No one got overly salty or punched themselves in the face :) I played the "Draconic Rage" precon and I gotta say it needs some work!
Oh yeah! but you'll see, Deckbuilding is probably MORE than half the fun.
I can't recommend enough to use some online apps that helps with decklists to get a better graps of statistics and odds of getting XYZ in your hand on any given turn... it helps tremendously.
There are so many cards too! Like I've been playing for 10 years + and I still learn about new cards I wasn't tracking constantly. Go nuts.
I run land destruction in every deck😇 your combos sitting in your hand is the only strategy I need
Re: The name "Stax"
I played Vintage in the time period when that term was coined. The name was coined by Kevin Cron of Team Meandeck and yes, it is an anagram of $4TKS, or "The Four Thousand Dollar Solution" because running a full set of power and a full set of Workshops made the deck cost about $4000 at the time. And because it ran Smokestack and a host of cards that made spells more expensive or denied mana. A blue deck was half that, as dual lands were just $30-40 and Mana Drains cost about $100 for English copies (Force of Wills at $20).
It was about 2004 and Darksteel had just come out, giving a new toy to Mishra's Workshop decks: Trinisphere. Mirrodin had given Chalice of the Void but it wasn't popular with Workshop players at first because the deck had a shaky manabase that was susceptible to opposing Wastelands and relied on its own Moxes to power out expensive spells when Workshop was not drawn or destroyed. Workshop decks running Sphere of Resistance and Smokestack had been around for a while but it was Trinisphere that gave the deck its trademark scary opening and free wins. Trinisphere was restricted in 2005 but Fifth Dawn gave Crucible of Worlds, which allowed for locks with Wasteland, and that really pushed the deck to premiere status in the format.
this is a long boy episode!
Great video!
I think a lot of it boils down to fair and open communication before the game starts, and knowing the pool you're playing with.
I for example used to play highly competitive commander with another couple guys at our LGS many years ago, and we were constantly evolving our decks and adjusting with new cards, and budget wasn't really a consideration at all. After a few years of break I went back into the LGS trying to play some commander, and ended up getting one game in all day and not being allowed to play at any table for the rest of the day, leading me to just not hang out at the LGS at all anymore.
The reason I was removed from their commander friend groups after a single game was of course, because my deck's power level was above theirs, and I didn't have other decks to play at the time.
This in isolation feels okay to me to some extent, but the way it was handled made me just irk on the thought of returning with a bad deck, just to be allowed to play with them. I had spent hundreds of hours perfecting my masterpiece and I'm not even allowed to touch it in public because people I played with consistently refused to play with me any further. They're not having fun, so it makes sense. Being made fun of for purchasing all of my cards, and "trying too hard", isn't fun to me, so I didn't really come back until very recently. Although I did try to play with some friends on occation outside of the LGS.
The LGS community still has the same issues, I'm not allowed to play my decks, but nowadays I take less offense to it. I've grown up more, and realize that my fun doesn't trump a whole table's fun. I've built a custom 100-card deck (all cards are bottom-up custom made) which was made to be adjustable in power level depending on the table I'm playing at. It has powerful interactions, but is mostly a value machine with many big glaring (designed) flaws, so that any table is able to win vs it, no matter the power level. It'll do just as well vs a 2-power deck as a 6-power deck, and fall off pretty quickly above that power level.
I do wish I could find local friends here that push the boundaries with me again though, and I hope that I don't have to forever have less fun because other people dictate it.
This became a really big wall of text, I guess I still have lots of emotion on the controlling players at our LGS haha :D
In conclusion: I really despise the controlling nature of commander tables, to make people play in a specific way or even remove whole archetype from the table, just because their decks aren't ready for it. Magic is a huge and beautiful game, and I would want anyone I play with to be able to try out any cards that is legal in the format against me. I want to see the full creativeness of the players in action, not just "creativeness limited to these terms which we socially decided but didn't inform you beforehand". If that means I die to aggro decks and have to start including an extra wipe or removal next wednesday night, I'm good with that, to me that's the most fun I can have, adjust to the current meta-game at our tables. (Or combo and have to add counters/removals, etc)
I understand why this exists though, just like cards are banned in certain formats, certain playstyles aren't fun or interactive for some play groups. They need to be allowed to voice their opinion on that as well. It's a tough issue for me, as I'm one of those power gamers who value having win conditions and not sitting for 3 hours in the same game - it's hard to see the other side properly, but it's like, during deck building process, I think "How does my deck win while counting in this cool interaction I really want to use" - where I *believe* the other side of the argument thinks "How does my deck include as much of this cool interaction as possible? Win, what's that?" and therein lies the disconnect.
If anyone's read this huge text block, what do you think? Agree or disagree? How far can you take the social politics and when are players allowed to 1. ban playing against certain players or things - and 2. What is a good balance between being inclusive to newer players and existing players.
Disagree. You get to see more cards doing more things in more casual games(like you said it’s a beautiful game with a lot in it). Combos are somewhat fine in my opinion, at least as long as they take more than two cards. It ruins the experience for a game to go from “who will win?” To “I have these two cards and the game is over.” In an instant. Extremely high power decks should only play other high power decks
I do love my infinite near everything combo in my Grixis superfirends deck that requires about 5-8 specific cards to go off.
I think mill is worse 1v1 personally.
Can't stand it in Standard, rly don't mind seeing it in commander
@@HexQuesTT I can stand it in commander for multiple reasons the most important of which is you can't really play around it especially on a budget and whenever I play against a mill deck they always hit all my lands and I get stuck on 4 mana all game.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 Realistically ur lands should be spread evenly throughout the deck, mill doesn't do anything to stop you drawing lands, Mill players have gotta mill 300 cards which is ridiculous, also there's plenty of cheap graveyard recursion cards, Regrowth, Fungal Rebirth, Bala ged recovery
@@HexQuesTT land being evenly spread is the issue they always seem to hit me at just right time im always drawing a nonland. Realistically they need to mill 100 because all the mill that sees play in my local meta mills each opponent plus bruvac they only need to mill 50 plus the cards that with bruvac mill their entire library.
@@HexQuesTT also recursion doesn't help me because I don't play green decks.
The "it depends on the group" is why I have 102 cards in my Sliver deck. I have 2 MLD cards because of Gemhide Sliver allowing slivers to seize a game through a MLD card. If a group says "no" not an issue I can just swap out those 2 cards for my 2 in the folder that are sitting there as replacements.
If I played commander....there's a lot of great recommendations here. Stax seems great! Thank you
Prepare to get gang-banged.
I used to believe that I had some power level 8 decks, just to realize that it was probably closer to a 4.... I basically played myself with the "threat" of a grand consistent deck
At my store, none of these are off limits, and only chaos is "taboo," but only if there is no sense to the madness. In our store the thing that'll make people not play with you is actually group hug.
Respect
I would like your store
But muh hippos
What is bad about group hug?
@@moritzk4795 group hug is basically a chaos-strategy. Most decks require some sort of set-up, a period of a few rounds where your opponents can interact with your gameplan, prioritize the development of their game vs. slowing down yours, if necessary. Group hug screws with that in unpredictable ways. A player with a perfect hand might just combo out after you doubled everyones mana, or a player who has to find his win-con after ramping up will be able to explode if you provide them with card-draw. And you yourself will not profit as much from providing the benefits as will the player who'll end up winning the game, so it's not even like group hug is a valid plan to win the game yourself.
50 minute video? Yeah I can squeeze this one in while my opponent combos off.
'Deleting a player' has happened to me. I was in a casual league at my local LGS. First couple of nights went well and then the 'Jerk' came in. His deck was at least 5 power levels above the other 3 players at the table and was built to lock down the game (no creatures, no spells - nothing could be played). I should have just scooped and left, but the REALLY irking thing is that he continued to play, search his deck multiple times every turn, create tons of tokens, and then only attack a single player with 5 of them which prolonged the game even further! He topped that off by being a jerk to his girlfriend (who was watching the game) too! I never went back.
My friend plays a deck exactly like that and his turns take 10 minutes and then he wonders why we always target him
Im in a tricky playgroup where theres like 3 casuals including me which pretty much have precons with upgrades, and 1 competitive player, and the competitive player doesn't "get" why they would play their deck weaker if that makes sense? so all the games do often become, 3v1 trying kill the competitive player asap, but they still win most of the time
That guy sounds like a real piece of shit, you should honestly kick him put of the playgroup if he refuses to play a weaker deck.
@@MatthewCJoy or they could make stronger decks, I don't think it's him being an asshole he probably just wants to play with his friends and make them better at the game.
@Jamie strong doesn't have to mean expensive, also you can give the best deck in the world to a new player but that doesn't mean they will win. I had this problem years ago, so we swapped decks and I kept winning. End of the day the real difference is I've been playing magic for a long time.
@Jamie you're still missing my point, I'm saying that deck value means nothing compared to player skill. You can give a new guy the best, most broken deck you can think of and he's still gonna lose to an experienced player running a precon. Have you ever bought a card specifically for EDH?
@Jamie whataboutism? Are you talking about when I asked you if you bought cards? Well I suppose that reaction answers it. But still you're missing the point.
I could play a deck with 99 lands and win against a newbie, but there is nothing to be gained from that. If I play a good deck and then while going off I can explain how it works and how to disrupt it. Do you want your friends learning about infect from someone who cares about them, or catching poison counters from some rando?
The problem with combos that require multiple pieces is if that translates in the person playing solitaire
This is very true I saw this happen with my Kalamax deck. Sometimes a turn takes like fiveteen minutes and the rest is just looking at their phones in boredom. If I had foreseen that part I probably would have build a different deck.
@@Imabirdhaww Why is it toxic if they don't win after that? Storm is an archetype where you can potentially get screwed.
@@skenmir there's combos that required three or less pieces, and then there's those where the pieces take so long to get everyone is basically watching someone play solitare for like 30 minutes
And sometimes that can be quite boring for the rest of the players
@@skenmir the problem is not the amount of pieces required, it's the amount of time it sometimes take to get to those, or to simply lose to an explanation, that's what I don't find fun about combos. Hope that I got my idea across, even if you disagree on whether it's fun or not, after all, tastes and preferences are different for everyone