When Will Indian Surpass Harley Davidson Sales? And Why Are HD Motorcycle Sales Down So Much?
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- čas přidán 23. 01. 2024
- Ridge Roamer discusses Indian and Harley Davidson historical sales, future trends, and plans for each company to identify when Indian annual sales volumes may pass Harley in this American motorcycle manufacturer war that has been going for over 120 years.
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Great video
In my opinion all Indian needs to do is increase the amount of dealerships in order to be available where ever you ride.
Harley is an old lady with make up.
Do not get me wrong I love my Harley, but I have had to spend thousands to get my ultra to the level it now when it should have been done at the factory.
I had two buddy's with Indians and they're back to Harley after a year or so.
You need more Indian customers if you want more dealers. Funny, when my buddy brought his 2021 Indian to the deal to replace his info system after it was in to repair it two months prior. They had it for two months to repair it and they give him a late model HD for a loaner. I guess they didn't want him breaking down on our trip. LOL
Polaris is handicapping Indian dealers by not allowing any other products on their showroom floor. That’s why my local dealer sold his business and it’s 3 miles from the factory. You can’t survive on only motorcycles when they’re seasonal luxury items. That’s exactly why two Harley dealers went out of business in the same area.
Indian is a dead brand. Indians are rebadged polaris 2 wheelers to go along with the atv
I finally upgraded this year to a full dresser. I went from a metric that I've owned since 2008, to a 2016 Indian Roadmaster. I could not be more pleased, and one of the things that I love so much is that it's "not just like all of the others".
I think Indian should’ve kept Victory in business just produce the sexy hotrod bikes that Victory was known for. I had a 2011 jackpot and there isn’t another bike that looks like it. Plus, that freedom 106 was a pretty much bullet proof monster.
I too wish they had kept a few Victory models going. The Victory big sellers were the fantastic Cross Country and Cross Country Tourer and some Magnums when they closed shop in 2017. I have a 14 Cross Country and love it to death, and with only 25k miles, it is good for many more years. Yes that 106 was a great motor, so good that Indian based their Power Plus 108 on their Challengers and Challenger Tourers, as the 108 was under development as a Victory motor replacement to the 106. I have had my Cross Country Lloydz 501 cammed, and Lloydz hi flow filter, and a Techno Research Maximus ECU tune to about 115 hp and tq. The suspension blows the standard Harley dressers suspension out of the water.
As a Harley guy I always liked victory bikes and the style was cool!
Actually, Polaris made Victory, nice bike. They hauled production on Victory and took over the Indian name when it came available and started manufacturing bikes under the Indian name. .
@@dman4697 You’re correct. I already knew that. I was on the dealership floor buying my Victory Jackpot a week after Polaris made the announcement.
I miss victory too but I think they’re blending some Indian models with victory style lately
Currently, Indian's dealer network is wanting. Historically it always has been, that being said. Unless Indian sorts this out, never.
Polaris is being stupid with Indian dealers. They’re not allowing any other products to be on the showroom floor with Indian including other Polaris products. That kills business at dealers since motorcycles are mostly a luxury and not a necessity. Those dealers can’t survive off of just motorcycle sales and service which is seasonal. That’s exactly why two Harley dealers in my area went out of business.
Must be american thing because around here in Finland the official dealer of Indians is Bike & Boat World and they are also an official dealer of Vespa, Honda, Aprilia, Moto Guzzi and Piaggio. And this is just the new bikes as they also have the used bikes which can be practically any brand.
@@Coyote-wm5op In NJ indian is sold by motorcycle mall. One of the largest dealers in the country. They sell several different brands. That happened after the stand alone dealers went under.
I agree, unless you have a dealership within 25 miles of where you live.................
They both have dealership issues.
After researching Harley vs Indian, I purchased an Indian. No regrets.
What’s better about it
Everything except fit and finish. Indian has better power, comfort, handling, reliability, features…..styling is really up to each person
👍
Tested 5 different big-twin M8 harleys. Bought an indian 20 mins through the first ride. It now has 95tkm and went all across europe and north-africa, no issues and more presence than any harley - as they‘re not only old fashioned, what we like, but lacking ride-tech. Ol mama posing is all it is - Lipstick, even the new CVOs, zero innovation, all of them including the Panamerica. Sure Indian has paused, too in some lazy form, but they have build better platforms to live from. Harley still needs to get there. Chieftain Limited - here.
@@billfischer8057I have to say fit and finish come down to model and trim. I have a scout and they are on par with any sportster and in most cases better.
The best argument for buying an Indian over a Harley Davidson is just take one of each for a ride. The quality difference is astounding.
Sold my Harley, bought a Roadmaster, traded that in on a Challenger. Loved the bike, Polaris sucks. The bike was riddled with problems and glitchy as heck. Polaris customer service sucked bad. I returned to Harley and will never own another Indian/Polaris product ever. Graham in customer service would respond when he felt like it, always shielding tech services from having to answer questions or solve issues. Yes, Im sure like stories are available for every bike brand, but the money I lost on the toilet of a challenger I had buys me the right to say what a crap company Polaris is. Best of luck with whatever you choose to ride.
Same experience here. Took a big loss on the indian was worth it to get rid of it. Issue after issue then dealing with a bad dealer which has since gone out of business.
Ive had 3 indians. Roadmaster challenger and now a pursuit. Been damn near flawless bikes for me. My best riding partners were harley riders. Rode there first indians in 2015. No longer own any harleys. Now 2024 wouldnt even consider a harley now. Just sayin
@@leemitchell7879I’m just sayin’ too. It was an absolute turd. I’m glad you are having a good experience.
Listen to this guys, I bought a new 1999 victory and have been riding it ever since. It is the best motorcycle I have ever owned. And I have owned 5 Harley Davidsons, and I will never go back to a Harley, except a 1968 to 1972 Xlch or a 1940 Ulh. And I am very glad Indian is doing well, however, If I buy a new Indian, it will be a Kiwi Indian built by Mike Thomas from Riverside California.
Another whiner.
Great research and analysis, it was a great shame Victory was closed, but understand why. It'll be very interesting to see if Indian can catch HD, two of the most USA iconic brands, I own an Indian Chieftain.
There is nothing iconic about a brand that went out of business for 50 years
@@Brian-zg9fftook the words right out of my mouth there Brian .🤔😉
@@Brian-zg9ff there‘s nothing iconic about a brand that was technologically behind as long as it existed, unless you name some tractors iconic. H-D.
But as we love tractors, we continue to buy them, any brand.
Never should've got rid of Victory....imo
As a Millennial- I agree with what was said- contrary to popular belief, most People my age and even Gen X love the looks of a HD. Fit & finish is second to none- however when I have a young family, bills, and Girl Scout cookies to buy, I cannot justify a HD motorcycle- gone are the days for my generation owning a brand new anything- it ain’t just bikes- Cars are over priced, houses are overpriced, hell college education is overpriced- so it isn’t so much that my generation doesn’t want to, it’s simply HD’s CEO has made it clear, they are not interested in the working man/family man- and it’s evident in HD products- who the hell asked for a CVO version of a Pan America, yet we all can see how much we wanted the Bronx… so The MoCo has made it crystal clear, they are not interested in the common man, just people that buy $50 T-shirts… wish it wasn’t what it is, but it doesn’t fall at the feet of my generation, go talk to that German CEO that pushed everyday Americans out of the market…
Well said. HD has left a void that will be filled by someone else and then when the tee shirt sales fall as the shrinking number of aging buyers meet their maker they will wonder why.
The debt HD carries will diminish real investment in product line development and Indian smelling blood will overwhelm them with more new models, more affordable options and outpace them in product development leading to market share gains. I think your estimate of 2029 is good but i think 2028 is possible
Good call man.
Unless you're a RUB HD to give 2 shoots about you.
Not working man's now they wanna be the Versace of bikes....good luck with that.
Lucky they're are heaps of used HDs with low miles.
The Cheif and Scout are fine models comparing to the Bronx.
In my garage sits a 2016 Chieftain 2021 Challenger 2018 road glide and a 2021 street glide. In my honest opinion, the Indians are a superior machine , tech on both brands have their issues, the 2016 Chieftain doesn’t have all the technology and it’s flawless . Harley absolutely has Indian beat in the paint department by a country mile.
When it comes to “fit” look at the neck of the street glide on the right side of the bike and you see a ton of wires. All the electrical goes through there., on the Chieftain ZERO!,!
I like the way Indian and victory when they were in Business fit the seats into the tank , they always fit real well, except for the chief lineup
All in all both are great machines, and although this is completely redundant “the competition between the two companies gives us the consumer better bikes to choose from”
After a hiatus of about 20 years, I decided to buy a new motorcycle this coming spring. While I can afford either one, I will be buying an Indian. Why? Two reasons. One is the look of the bike. I really like Indians design. Two is the fact that everyone and their brother has a Harley. I've always been a little outside the box and I want something different.
Do some research with people that have owned them, they're junk.
Everyone and their brother and I have a Harley because they are built better and are more reliable.
I own the 2009 MV Agusta F4 purchased in November of that year, Harley owned the company and the shop owner was freaking out every time I looked and left, by the 5th iteration he gave me the bike at his cost because banks weren't lending and nobody knew what HD was going to do yet. Between Buell, MV, V▪︎Rod, and dead wire how is this company still in business
I love my 2016 Indian Roadmaster. Totally love this bike. I looked at Harleys for a year before shifting my view to Indian motorcycles. I like what I see in the Indian bikes and, by chance, found my 2016 Roadmaster. I travel almost 100 miles to the dealer where I have the bike serviced... but, considering how I feel about my Indian bike, it is not an issue. Regardless which bike you have, a Harley or an Indian, both are great bikes... so just make sure you have a reliable dealership that can service your bike. ... and... practice, practice, practice making elegant stops and starts and U-turns. Be safe.
Until Indian can establish and maintain an extensive dealer network it will continue to be a boutique brand. Nothing wrong with the product but not able to gain the rider loyalty of a company that has been in continuous production since 1903..
I traded my 2016 Ultra Limited for a 2021 Road Glide Limited mainly because I wanted an RG. But I regret it, the bike has no soul. I miss my 103 twin cam so much. I wish I would have kept it.
Yep, I tested 5x M8 bikes, including the road glide, and the sport glide, now in addition even the panamerica. I bought an Indian Chieftain after that. And then rode my friends 2003 TC88 heritage. Sure, no comparison, but so much more soul and solidity in that TC88, I imagine the same, just more power on the 103. For a straight cruiser, a HD-TC, definitely, but my needs are different, going through the tinyest and bumpy roads quick and smooth, the Indian Chieftain (likely Roadmaster, too) is worlds better than any HD, even the new ones, thanks to the chassis architecture, it‘s not just some suspension. And it still feels like an old engine-soul bike, not as much though as a TC88. I may add a 2003 TC88 RG to my place, just for the sake of it. The coolest tourer in my eyes.
Trade it for a 2015 CVO Road Glide. I'm sure there are some garage queens out there.
H-D going to EV and partnering with Budweiser doesn’t help .
HD has pretty much abandoned the EV
Indian doesn't need to surpass them in sales, the only thing keeping Harley afloat now is their Finance services dept.. With dealers selling above MASR and all the fees etc, all that "extra" money is being financed, it is free money for Harley. It appears Harleys solution to smaller sales numbers is to cater to their wealthier customers with bikes and prices the average consumer can't afford. It will be interesting to see how much longer Harley can hang on.
Pretty much so on par with airlines and baggage fees.
Indian just needs to worry about itself and het rid of bikes that dont sell as well stick with the ones that do and improve them and have some dark ops bike engineers to try to develop the next big deal. If they would stop putting ugly paint on the scouts and keep them looking good theyll sell better. If indian plans to add product to its line it should be good stuff in good segments that draw people in. They gotta be good sith the engineering so they dont end up like harley with more money than sense. Where they cancel the iron 1200s and sell a newer sportster s and frankly neither beat the indian scout and the only way the iron 1200 beat the scout was in raw character. They are both good looking bikes but now they dont make the irons anymore. Just the sportster s and nightster. To me an indian scout is better. Clearly. You see honda come out with the grom and no one competes while honda soaks up the money. Kawasaki eventually makes a z125 to comoete and it just cant the grom is the more popular bike. So it woukd be smart for indian to think carefully. Being smart about things will be beneficial. Polaris and indian together are harleys closest competition they should be serious.
I know your study is focused on new bikes, but used bike sales surely muddies the market share waters a bit. There appears to be this glut of used Harleys out there, which you would think would continue to drive down their resale value and new bike sales with the rise in those prices. Great video and thoughts on trends. I think the bigger question is if Harley will survive as it is today as a standalone company.
🛑🛑 The Math doesn’t add up. 💯
For Indian to compete with Harley Davidson, their dealership numbers have increased exponentially.
There are currently only 204 Indian Dealerships currently in the United States, whereas Harley Davidson has 664.
With the cost of an Indian Dealership costing 1.3 to 2.3 million dollars , and seeing our current economic situation, I do not see any new Indian Dealerships (or Harley Davidson) popping up, given the exorbitant costs associated on a sport that is losing participation regardless what you are riding. 💯
Indian needs more dealers
Indian sales will never Indian will always have that Polaris Identity Indian has been gone since the 50s.
I think Indian will continue to grow - I hope, anyway - because I have a red Indian Chief Gilroy, and every time I go out I get compliments and people saying, 'Wow, I love your bike, so nice to see an Indian.' I've been to 'Bike Nights' where I'm one of only two or three Indians among dozens of Harleys, and often get asked to park in the 'Favorite Bike' enclosure. But once, a local newspaper published a picture of my Indian at such a Bike Night, and no pictures of all the black Harleys.
I consider the Gilroy bikes with the S&S Evolution engines to be the best looking Indian bikes.
Just like you - I own both brands - I believe it will surpass prior to 2029 - "boutique" in flat black????- H-D lost me in '13 - so in '14 I bought a chief
Great job Air Force! I own both a Chief Vintage and a 2003 H-D FLSTS springer.
Great analysis. Halfway through I said to myself 3-5 years. Fantastic video
30 years with HD but sold my last one and bought a Scout 69....damn fine bike.
Don't care if it's not the fastest but a nice ride and the 100 claimed HP is fine for me.
Zero regrets.
I appreciate your overall perspective of Harley-Davidson, especially the financial piece. I will be in the market for a motorcycle soon and can't decide which brand to choose. I'm thinking Harley, but I'm not completely sold on the brand.
Lost me when dealerships were charging more than MSRP and had to wait months to get one, never again. I will stick with my tried-and-true metric!
Great video. Very interesting!
Awesome research and video. It would have been cool to see Victory sales overlayed against H-D and Indian in there. Showing if Victory made an impact before Indian and how it looked between 2013 and 2017 especially. Also, I wonder how much total sales in dollars each made per year. Selling 1,000 more Sportsters isn't as lucrative as 1,000 CVO Ultra Classic. Probably hard to get all that data I'm sure.
Victory sold 135k units total for the entire 18 year run. I I’m not sure if the numbers used in this video count worldwide sales. In 2016 HD sold 161,658 units in the US and 260,288 worldwide. Very close to doubling Victory’s 18 year sales number in one year.
This is a good review and analysis of past sales for the HD and Indian brands. Indian might catch HD in sales but in my opinion it will be because HD sales will continue to decline. A lot of the die hard Harley riders are aging and young riders have lots of relatively inexpensive and high quality options, especially from Honda, Triumph, Yamaha, Kawasaki, KTM and Suzuki to mention a few. In addition it seems that there are fewer younger people interested in motorcycling. I bought an early number 2013 Indian Chief Classic (2014 model year) and for a few years there were very few used Indians available. I sold my 10 year old Indian this past year and there were lots of low mileage used Indian cruisers available but they were very expensive.
I like your linear extrapolation plot shown at 12:33 and I would bet on that model for Indian and HD. The high prices for these 2 brands are likely to cause both to become boutique brands with similar flat sales numbers.
Maybe the air-cooled Sportsters didn’t sell in big numbers but they were an authentic piece of HD. Stopping those and going for the liquid-cooled Sportster - which are no doubt selling dismally - makes me worry that the cook’s not in the kitchen. Air cooled models like the BMW R9T and Ducati Scramblers have been the staples of their lineups. Also, as nonsensical as it might seem, how long before the same influences that worked against naming like “Cleveland Indians” starts to work against the brand?
Listen I agree. The old sprotsters they cancelled a couple years ago were better in terms of the sheer character. It was almost flawed so bad to its own benefit. The cool factor was way high. The issue was they were slow and old. When harley cancelled those bikes they were very asthetic looking bikes. There was no radiators hoses and things. It was a very good looking bike on each side of the bike. They since cancelled them and came out with the nightster and sportster S. I think theyre both technically better bikes ON PAPER. But notivable worse in person. Faster better mpg more power torque, water cooled, thats big stuff. Bit the way harley did it isnt jiving with me. You look at the nightster and one side is sorta ugly and the other side is just ugly ugly. Theres a reason they only show the right side in every picture is a crap deal. Indian with the scout, it has liquid cooling but they also did a better job of actually tying things together so the bike looks good om both sides. So to me harley couldve repalced the old irons with more modern water cooled bikes that were better on paper but it also has to be better in person. Indian scout managed to capture a very classic look wuthout losing the more modern advancements and hakrey didnt do it as well recently i think. Theyd have been better off keeping the 883 or iron 1200s, 48s and 72s, and instesd of cancelling them and repalcing them with worse, they should have known for sure they had a better pridict in person and on paper before they cancelled them. The sportsters were worse bikes. Old slow and flawed but still the 883 was basically a piece of history. It had way more character than an indian. The issue now is indian makes a more refined bike but similar class vtwin design etc, harley wanted to refine the sportsters by canceling them and making new ones but they sucked at it. Indian just makes a better 1200cc i think. If yojr goingnto modernize snd refine you have to do a good job. The right side of the bike cant look done while the left looks unfinished. An indian scout looks good all around on each side. You got a 1200cc 6 speed. All its missing is cruise control. Indian sells really really high quality quick detatch windsheilds. Floor boards.. theyre notncheap bikes either of them i just think, why by a nightster when you can buy a base model scout and it doesnt loom ugly on the left side 😂
Indian could pass harley if they only hit home runs and Harley consistently drops the ball. All the HD guys seem excited about the 2024 releases, possibly indicating a good year. In the end I don't care which is better as long as they don't kill eachother off. They need to keep each other around so they can continue to compete and drive the other company forward
They might be excited but at $60,000 for a CVO I don't think they are wetting their panties. 😉🤣Plus we like the old stuff . The Classic bikes we can still work on . Even Harleys are getting impossible to do that and you need $$$$$$of shop equipment to do so . Not many youngsters can afford to but either brand ,and sales will go down because of cost to buy , service ( if they can't swing wrenches or its even possible to do so ) . If not it's literally $150 an HOUR to have a grease monkey screw up your bike ( usually) after 47 years and counting I've sadly seen it happen more then not . No there is a law of averages but the days of on mass purchases of Motorcycles with the new generation is nowhere near what is was in my day .😎🇬🇧🇺🇲👍
It wont be a good year. Harley has to hope they sell enough street glides and softtails to pay for their hemoraging funds from the lifewire and the sportster and nightster that arent selling well i dont think. Itll be another year of working just to send it down the drain
The new Street and Road Glides for 24 shud help the HD cause. Dropped the price. Bigger displacement. New fairings and info screens. Indian just as expensive if not more. No dealer network. And it’s not really Indian…it’s Polaris. I don’t see them surpassing HD in 2029 or 2059. It’s good they exist to push innovation, but I see them being the little brother for generations to come.
How is Harley still Harley. Look at its CEO?
Why do you say Indian isn't Indian?Was Harley still Harley when AMF bought them out?
Don’t be so confident: the Big 3 auto makers said the same thing. Harley’s dominance is not guaranteed.
The new street and road glides are cheaper on their website but they’re the same price as the old ones in the dealerships. And depending on where you go, they’re more expensive than the old ones with all the added fees that aren’t listed on the placards hanging from the handlebars. From everything I’m seeing that drop in price was an illusion to get people in the door.
And to say it’s not Indian is ridiculous. You don’t call a Dodge Ram, a Jeep, or a Maserati a Stellantis. They are all owned by Stellantis so why not keep that same energy across the board? It’s like people don’t understand that most companies they interact with on a daily basis have parent companies that produce more than one name brand.
The hate and sideways comments from Harley fanboys is so obvious it’s not even funny anymore. I don’t know if it it’s because the brand loyalty brainwashing is that strong or it’s because INDIAN produces better products from the factory that don’t require thousands of dollars in aftermarket products to make it worth riding after you’ve already bought the bike. Unlike Harley that continuously slaps on a coat of “new and exciting paint”, calls it new and improved and then directs you to the parts counter so you can “make it yours” because the basic stuff offered on almost every other brands bikes from the factory is only available as an up charged add-on.
I’m not an Indian loyalist either. My favorite bike of all time is a Harley Fatboy. But I refuse to pay $21,999(MSRP), more like $25k plus out the door, for a bike that still has incandescent brake lights and turn signals in 2024. It’s a beautiful bike but come on. What are they thinking.
Each year since 2019 (so 5 years now), I have taken the opportunity to test ride everything I can. When I go to Bike Week in Daytona and Sturgis along with other opportunities at any dealership within a 100 mile radius of where I live. I do like the Indian motorcycles. But, I still prefer Harley. They have a feel which I can hardly explain. They are both smooth, but thumping. They are both comfortable and powerful. They feel like they are made of metal and leather. Everything I see as I sit in the cockpit and everything I touch looks and feels top tier. Indian feels more plastic and looks it too. If Harley was out, I’d look to buy an Indian. As long as Harley stays the course, and keeps making quality stuff, I will likely be on a Harley.
I ride a 76 shovel head I can still fix most anything on the road The issue with these new bikes you break down U get towed. To dame fancy and expensive and both brands have all parts made somewhere else
Indian is a nice bike but I just can’t get over the fact it’s just a tribute bike rebadged and always will be.
How is it a tribute bike?
@@Coyote-wm5opit’s the same as putting Harley badges on a URAL to make it look look like a Harley but it is still a URAL. Polaris is still Polaris and I respect that but should have kept a victory line they were kool looking bikes!
I get the same flack about my AMF Harley....not a real Harley
@@Wheelgauge-bt7ox No it is an Indian, just like a Harley made in the 70s is still a Harley. Triumph also has been in and out of business and they are back. Polaris is smart enough to know keeping both Victory and Indian would be a mistake. Why compete against yourself, just go after Harley.
By the same logic all Audi, Skoda and Lamborghini are just Volkswagens. Or Alpha Romeo and Ferrari are just Fiats. Come on man, don't drink the Indian hater propaganda koolaid. Think for two seconds how much sense that idea makes.
I ride a 2019 indian chief vintage I've owned 6 harleys in my day .I think my indian rides and handles better then harley
I use to own a Harley but now I’m a proud Indian owner.
Thats an interesting analysis. I can see your point. Hard to predict the future. Indian is pushing Harley to improve. Good for the consumer. It was close for me but i got a Harley as there is no Indian dealers near me. Closest one is 100 miles. Plus aftermarket parts and basic maintenance, oil filters , oil and just about everything for the indian is not readily available. Whereas for the Harley, its everywhere 😮
This makes no sense. You can literally get parts shipped to yourself like an iil change kit. I do it every year lol
Riding since '82, my first and only cruiser is an Indian Scout bobber (purchased 2 yrs old). As everyone continues to customize their own ride, Indian & aftermarket companies are wide open producing accessories. I'm positive there are still many "won't throw a leg over anything but HD" people out there - but why? Too many great brands out there to limit oneself..
I would have loved to have seen the numbers of the other cruiser manufacturers in this comparison.
The release of a new road glide and street glide for 2024 should boast Harley sales this year. Harley can now boast they offer more power, and tech for a lower price than compared to the Chieftain and Challenger. I am eager to see how Indian responds
Better power than the Challenger! 😂
If Indian would up their basic fit and finish, and fix a few tech glitches. They'd surpass HD quickly. Love both my Indians. But i do miss my HDs fit and finish. Indians way better bikes.
Indian is also cleaning up at the flat tracks.
Harley can’t help losing loyal customers, they’re all getting too old to ride 😂.
And they have almost no way to attract new younger customers if they have chosen to become a boutique brand and only release expensive baggers and three wheelers.
They have nothing that a new younger rider could consider, especially if they aren’t a wealthy doctor or lawyer. Nighter and Sportster S are far too expensive and most will opt for a bike from one of their competing.
Harley needs the equivalent or a Triumph Speed Twin, Rebel 500 or Vulcan S to get new customers through the door and the new Asian models don’t have the styling to do that
I would love to go with and Indian, but the lack of a dealer network keeps me from making the jump.
The new Scout will blitz Sportster sales.
And wouldn't be surprised if some lighter Softails get overtaken.....just saying.
Great vid bro 👍
Been waiting for HD to release the Bronx for years now. Finally gave up waiting and picked up an Indian FTR 1200 last week. It's been a fantastic bike so far!
Indian has been gone since 1953. Polaris just uses the Indian Label .. Indian Motorcycles are way overpriced too, but they offer better value for your money than HD does. Better suspension more reliable ect.. In many cases Indian Dealers treat their customers better too .
I think it boils down to $ money. It seems we are just paying a premium for the brand name of Harley. When Indian can provide a product with just as much quality, and sometimes more, for a lesser price, why would anyone choose Harley if not for name branding?
A used Harley can be a great choice. Fit & finish, reliable, easy to work on.
I didn't find Indians to be 'comparably cheaper at all to Harleys. Except for mabey the CVO line , which is far from average harley price.I've owned plenty of Polaris products. Thier 4 wheelers were great around 2000. Now they are junk. Cheap linkage, bearings ect. Made to break. If you can get 2000 miles without replacing them you are doing better than anyone I know.
Have transparency in pricing,and excellent service after the sale.That's not only what all dealers SHOULD be doing,it's equitable.People want to feel good about buying a new bike,not riding away from the dealership feeling like they got hosed.
We need more brands to compete in this performance bagger competition. Bring. Cruisers into it .
Air cooled V-twin "cruisers" can run in the super hooligan class currently.
I'm an Indian rider thru and thru
Ive owned both brands, and both are great bikes. Would love to see Polaris incorporate the Indian line within their dealerships. Polaris has quite a bit more dealerships than HD (1184 vs.664 usa google.) This would, at minimum, square up the argument of lack of dealerships and support across the nation when comparing to HD. It isn't something that could be done overnight obviously, but it would definitely be a positive move to gain more market share for those on the fence. Especially for those customers who consider the availability of dealerships to be the deal breaker.
As an Indian owner, I dont think HD is in any danger of being taken over by Indian. HD has its share of loyalists who won't even consider a different brand. My brother in law has a 2017 Ultra. Just for the heck of it, he sat on a fully equipped Roadmaster at a dealership and couldn't believe how light the Roadmaster felt as compared to his Ultra. He even admired the standard features Indian offered as opposed to his HD. But at the end of the day, he plans to stick with HD. His money, his choice. Everyone needs to ride whatever makes them happy .
Would be interesting to see an overlay of the graph of overall streetbike sales during the same years. I have the impression it has a bit of downward slope?
I've owned a half dozen bikes in my life. And I always thought of Harley as a status symbol. I loved all my metric bikes and I'm sad to see yet an other made in America brand decreasing.
Harley is throwing away what, 100 million dollars a year, on the LiveWire that nobody wants. They should maybe dump that. Isn't it ironic though that HD is a poor debt risk. How much of their income is from loaning people with questionable credit money to buy motorcycles and accessories at shameful interest rates?
If I was in charge it wouldn’t because I would make a line that was old school without all the electronics that you can work on and unlimited customization! I know it’s not for everyone but there’s a market for it because of all the people looking for older models that doesn’t have all the confusing electronics
We have no Indian dealership in Alaska but I still have an Indian. I love the way they look and I love liquid cooled engines.
Harley is one of my favorite motorcycle brands period. I say this as an almost 20 year old young man, the appeal of Harley Davidson bikes are still there, but the prices definitely are not. I'm a taller guy, meaning I can't really hang out in sportster land, so one of the cheaper options for a bike I could actually fit on is the street bob and that bike is $20,000 just msrp. Now add on all the taxes and dealer fees and other bs and we're looking at $28,000 to almost $30,000. Way more than I'm able to justify spending with my other responsibilities on the table. I could of course, look for a used Harley if I really wanted one bad enough, but with that you gotta hope you get one that isn't a lemon, lest it be in the shop more than on the road.
Well, I live in the midlands UK, and Harley dealers are thin on the ground. I’m thinking about a Sport Chief this year.
Why would anyone want either of these behemoths when so many better bikes are out there … 🎉
Yea as a younger guy I’m 33 I have had 1200 sporty and a wide glide loved them both …. My dad had a RG he loves his bike he been rolling HD his hole life I just can’t support hardly Davison in anymore. I feel like they have a bad tendency of shitting on their customer base and their prices are out of control and every time they release a new design with a new motor it gets worse it’s gotten to the point unless you have thousands of dollars and electronic dietitian tools you can’t work on your bike … there are other options out there cruiser wise that are a lot cheaper and reliable when you’re trying to be financially responsible and take care of a family but you still wanna ride and be free. It’s a hard choice to make. Used to when your bike broke down on the side of the road. If it broke down you and your buddies could probably fix it. Good luck with that now lol I think my dad’s RG has more electronics on it than my wife’s car.
Well, at this point it doesn’t seem like such a hard call to make. Harley openly says that it intends to scale down and become a “boutique” brand, while Indian says it’s aggressively seeking a larger market share and opening new dealerships. Which horse would you bet on?
I don't see large amounts of used/traded in bikes at my Indian dealer. The local Harley dealers usually have tons of them. Granted, those used bikes are from customers swapping out for new models and taking on debt themselves.
Most Indian dealerships get rid of their used Harleys at auction, or get buy bids from local Harley dealerships. Which helps keep the Harley dealers stocked with used inventory. But most of the used Harleys at dealerships are still local trade ins for new(er) Harleys.
@@RidgeRoamer I just watched your 2024 Indian Bagger video, haven't found a reason to turn in my 2019. Has Indian and Harley continued the displacement wars?
@@jamesesenwein5152 Indians new releases will be at AIM in a week or two.
@@RidgeRoamerI can’t wait to see what Indian brings out!
Don’t forget to mention how polaris screwed their customers by dropping victory and leaving dealers and owners high and dry. If they don’t sell enough Indians,they will be doing the same to them. They make their profits on ATV’s. By the way, why does Indian not release motorcycle sales???????
Harley has to just cut their prices by half to grow back. Simple as that. Their prices are ridiculous to maintain their large empire. Indian however, has smaller overheads and their productions are relatively small which puts them in a very safe spot.
I don't think Indian will ever out sell Harley, not with their current business model. I think what they should do is bring back Victory as their metric bike challenger and eat in to some of those Japanese bike sales using Victory while continuing the Merica V Twin model with Indian.
Indian needs to come up with some of that victory styles for their baggers .!!!!!!! That would be awesome!!!!!
In 1979 General Motors built 288,000 Camaros that's just one model of one brand of car from within GM ..
When Rome was founded in 753 BC, King Romulus only had 3,000 soldiers
With Harley's sales volume flagging badly they envision becoming a boutique brand. Interesting.
I see motorcycle sales going down in general in the US. Tough time to be selling an expensive toy. Not as many young riders getting into it. Harley riders like their older bikes they don't care about modern performance in fact that's what they like the old skool of it. But I never see Indian passing Harley even though they have more appealing models.
Since 2010 everyone has been debating the demise of Harley-Davidson. To be honest all the motorcycle manufacturers lost volume (except Indian because you can only go up from zero) during that time. Millennials don’t seem as interested in motorcycles, Gen-Z’ers are still in the hobby but the boomers who have the most disposable income have been dying out. The 2024 model year will be interesting because the Grand American Touring bikes are 4 to 5 thousand less than comparable 23 models. The Road Glide and Street Glide are their biggest sellers and most profitable bikes. Just think if they did that to their whole line-up.
Maintaining those high sales numbers & profit is a very difficult long term game. Overall, I think Harley is wise to steadily reduce size & production. Indian & others will pick up some slack but will hopefully have learned from Harley’s mistakes.
I recently became a first time bike owner/rider. I'm in my 5th month. I went to my local Harley Dealership to get my drivers endorsement by passing their MSF course. While there i looked around and asked to see the 'cheaper' bikes. One of the cheapest on the floor of Pig Trail Harley Davidson was $18k. They had a few that were $16k. No way.
I found a used 22' Triumph Street Twin 900cc for $7,500 with 20 miles on it. I've put close to $3k in mods on it and it's basically a custom bike at this point and I'm still all in for right at around $10,000. Then there is the addons. Harley addons are insane.
My next bike, I don't know...we'll see, but it's probably not going to be a Harley then either.
It took Polaris 13 years to make a profit with Indian. Harley netted $750,000,000 in 2023. What was Indian's net? Ive test driven every Indian. They still aren't where they need to be to earn my business. The only bike that interests me is the FTR.
I own a 2019 Indian Roadmaster, however, the new Harley"s are pretty freaking awesome. Indian passed Harley a few years back from a tech perspective. Now it's time for Indian to catch up.
Boutique sales…that may work for Rolex but in America we don’t view HD as rich man’s bikes…even though they are expensive that isn’t the attitude in the states
Harley Davidson started following the same bad business models of Ford, GM and many more. Over priced and motorcycles that are best suited to the dealership to repair and even simple maintenance. The only good motor of the late models was the 103. Instead of staying with a good motor the H-D engineers, went on to motors designed to break down, at least it seems like this to me! I will stay with my ‘97 evo.
There is room in the American market for two brands. In shred for always fighting each other, we should be fighting together over the stupid EPA regulations. The small numbers of us on the roads, the good fuel economy we already have, should offset our “carbon footprint”.
Tbf, Indian makes some good bikes. I put over 500 miles on an FTR last summer and enjoyed it. As far as Indian surpassing HD, outside of the segment including the FTR, I really don’t see it happening. HD sells more than 10 to 1 over Indian. I like a lot of different bikes, simp for no company, but there’s something special about a tuned 45 deg air cooled VTwin.
I think Indian should do more in the chief family ( and bringing back the chief vintage dark horse for a 22/25 k ), for example an Indian old softail-like bike: 21 inches front, wide fork, extendend pegs, mini ape or dragbar.. HD is leaking something as the night train or the softail custom so Indian should do that bike.
Are they fighting over an overall shrinking moto market? What about the overall size of cruiser market vs sport bikes? Is there some other category that's getting more share? If the market is truly shrinking for cruisers, then maybe Harley has a good biz plan - max profits in niche market. Does it make sense for Indian to build out a network if all they are going to do is take more share from Harley of an ever smaller market? I don't know the answers... just things to consider here. Maybe a good video topic for you ??
Definitely some good ideas to research and present. From what I see the sport bike market is declining. Average engine displacement is declining. Naked sport, adventure, and retro seem to be very popular. But I may see what actual data I can dig up.
I don't own a bike, but would love to have either Harley or Indian. I think Indian will pass Harley in sales within the next 5 years so by 2029.
Now that Harleys aren't making fully air cooled, carburetor engines anymore, it is only a matter of time. As for me, I'm hoping to trade my stock xl1200l for a 99% customized Night Train (same year and miles).
With Harley’s 2024 release, you can really see that Indian has their attention.
The average family income can't afford the cost of a new motorcycle.
It is thought that Indians are better bikes and they give more standard features than Harleys do. However, if the Indian network doesn’t significantly amplify, they will likely never takeover / surpass HD sales. From what I have heard, the fact that an HD dealership for service is always nearby, no matter where you are on the country, is one of the biggest selling points.
My opinion is this, both manufacturers are going to see a few hard years until the economy and country gets back on track. Then the next problem is the aging demographics especially for Harley. I believe as the gen y and the gen x start to age out, both manufacturers will once again see a surge as these generations will yearn for bikes their parents rode. The biggest obstacle however will be the price points and the available spendable income level. At 70, I would like to buy a new bike, and while I can afford either, unless I can get one at what I consider a reasonable price point, I will hang up the idea of once again riding. I’ll just have to go with my memories of 50+ yrs of riding. Oh, and reasonable to me? A Road or Street Glide special in the 20-23K range out the door price. So, that being said it appears my riding days will be done.
The Video is informative and the two possible outcomes are logical when looking only from a USA internal view. H.D. has been eyeing a much larger market that is flourishing overseas.
In the U.S. motorcycles are not primary transportation for most. Many countries have far more motorcycle dependance. The number of factors in production,, sales, government interference and transportation are a big carrot in H.Ds eyes. I see the recent moves of Triumph, Suzuki, BSA, Norton, Jawa and others and western populations accepting and even romancing over the return of these Motorcycle icons. These external things will greatly affect he choices H.D. makes. A company has an implied loyalty to their customers but the bottom line is King. If overseas production overall adds to the bottom line, H.D. may move to perceived greener grass. The H.D. faithful may not continue to buy, but new buyers may emerge due to better competitive pricing. Sone bikers may be going to the Taj Mahl motorcycle bodega ( tacky ) to see H.D., R.E., Triumph, BSA, Norton and others. It just seems to be the way of things.
The strategy of selling fewer bikes with higher margins will run into a brick wall. At some time HD will run out of people willing and able to purchase motorcycles with every increasing price tags. I like what Triumph has done with the new 400 cc bikes made in India. For every person who has the means to buy a new Harley, there are ten or twenty who could purchase the Triumph. If that bike proves to have reasonable reliability, Triumph will create legions of younger fans of the brand. Harley seems to be digging themselves into hole which will be very difficult to dig out of.
I looked at a roadglide in 2021. Bythe time i got it equiped.like standard Indian Challenger Limited i was about $7,000 morethan the .indian
I'm thinking that it will depend on how much longer Harley will try to be more like Indian, making short stroke V twins. If they follow Indian to try to catch them, then I think that will be the end of Harley. That would be a sad thing, for sure.
My closest Indian dealership has two brands selling, Indian and Royal Enfield! Very smart as when I started riding, HD did not have a starter bike as they did have Buel, but I was not I too naked bikes and that style. But to have a bike at one dealership for beginners and progress them as they learn. What a concept! Lol. Glad the GM had a good head on his shoulders as he was riding a RE with a side car to his shop! 10k for that bike, I want one as a 25 year rider myself.
Harley still has brand loyalty, but unit sales isn't Harley's only revenue, part & accessories, gear and clothing. Must account for something?
Harley Davidson sells one brand while Indian dealerships are into multiple forms and lines of outdoor power sports. The Indian dealership side of these businesses have little new and used inventory, very little merch and even less accessories. That is a tall hill for Indian to climb. I don’t think Polaris cares all that much. They make a great looking motorcycle but the service side is always distant and lacking skilled technicians and the Parts Department is not all that familiar with the product. I believe both companies will lose sales overall but not based upon anything but an increasingly hard economy.
It came out really good
Dream on. I have 2 friends that had new Indians and nothing but trouble with the info system and would only run on once cylinder chrome peeling off the plastic. The one guy already went back to HD after a year with 3 issues. The other repaired the info system, back in and they had it for two months to change the info system and he's looking at a new road glide. I've had 5 new HD's since 2007 and never had to do anything but tires, brakes & oil changes. Also the one guy said, a lot of the chrome is on plastic parts not chromed metal like on the HD's. You couldn't give me an Indian/Polaris. Just the name is Indian.
HD are now too expensive to be mainstream. Dealer support is poor, with significant wait times for service work or repairs. Once you see this after buying one, the gloss disappears and other brands become equal…